Romhacking.net

Romhacking => Personal Projects => Topic started by: Queue on January 31, 2019, 06:45:12 pm

Title: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191018
Post by: Queue on January 31, 2019, 06:45:12 pm
Edit:
Public test release is available (updated as of 2019-10-18):
https://ufile.io/rnh6l4m4 (https://ufile.io/rnh6l4m4)

Comprehensive info in this post has not yet been updated. Just getting the link available, will beef up documentation someday.



(https://i.imgur.com/fpQqeIR.png)(not a mock-up)

Mostly complete, but have not yet decided on release format; will elaborate in a bit.

The primary gameplay change for which it's titled "Turbo" is the complete removal of the game's stamina system for attacks (and running).

Core "Turbo" Features:
- Removes stamina (attacking / running / blocking)
- Streamlines weapon charging UI
- Removes weapon charging klaxon
- Stairs don't prevent running (but still slow you)

This patch is built on top of zhaDe's New Gameplay Improvement (https://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php?topic=20093.msg361754#msg361754) and is currently piggy-backing on zhaDe's ZPS patch format (and patcher). It also includes any dependency patches (FuSoYa's VWF Edition, vivify93's Proper-caser, etc., the list is pretty long) within the ZPS file. Which is why this patch release is still in an indeterminate state; I'm not sure about this community's stance on permission getting for redistribution vs. simply giving proper credit. At the very least I want to hear from zhaDe because this mod relies on changing some of his work (while other dependencies are effectively as-is). Edit: I got in touch with relevant authors and have been doing regular releases for a while.



Secondary Features:
- Adds MSU-1 v2 support to ZSNES v1.51 Win (official build only).
- Adds a day / night cycle that affects stuff.
- Adds the unused Ruby Armet to a shop.
- Restore prettier Japanese title screen image.
- Filter title screen image chunks to reduce blockiness.
- Simulate shimmering light on title screen image.
- Remove TM symbol from logos and trim legalese from end of intro text.
- Option to use the more minimal Japanese legalese.
- Preliminary FastROM enabling.
- Bug Fixes (listed below).

Changes to zhaDe's New Gameplay Improvement (V0.18):
- Organized the patch selection menu
- Glove weapon has guaranteed enemy knockdown (was Axe)
- Whip has negative knockback (pulls enemies towards you)
- Boomerang moving attack executes quicker
- Added sound to Axe thrust
- Changed sound of Sword thrust
- Added diagonal thrusts to Sword
- Hold 'A' while charging to pause charging gauge
- Block button changed to 'R' and stamina use removed
- Damage and healing numbers disappear faster (split to its own option)
- Magic Recharge times greatly reduced, but still present to prevent spamming
- Magic Recharge made configurable in the patcher (Advanced Options)
- Changing direction while running requires gradual turns (no instant 180s)
- Added sound when selecting secondary weapon
- QuickSpell primary hotkey changed to 'L'
- QuickSpell use doesn't require direction holding
- QuickSpell use finalizes on 'B' press instead of release
- Can reset QuickSpell menu with 'X'/'Y'
- Can still strafe while charging using 'L'
- MP display only shows after obtaining Undine
- Split ally and enemy AI changes into multiple options
- Split spell tweaks into multiple options

Bug Fixes:
- Fixes various whip post issues that get you stuck.
- Fixes having Spike Knuckle equipped when Mana Magic fades when originally equipped with sword 9 and being double unequipped when the spell's second half fades.
- Shifts boss rooms right to prevent invisible bosses when at the left edge of the room.
- Cleans up messy tile graphics in out-of-bounds areas (primarily helps when using [Scroll_Hack]).
- Fixes water flow direction in Temple fountains.
- Fixes for obscure permanent character loss (often related to being Frostied?).
- Prevent the ring menu from opening offscreen to avoid a hang.
- Fixes the truncated 'Weapon Skil' label on the Weapon / Magic Skill screen.
- Fixes a Mode 7 rendering issue near the world corners (especially visible near the volcano).
- Changes gogogogogogogogogogogogo... into ..... when talking to Elman before naming the girl.
- Disables the Magic Rope in the Pandora Castle Barracks (which normally gets you stuck).
- Fixes the 'sticky' trap on the right cliff outside the Wind Temple.
- Fixes a save data glitch by having the landing spot in Northwest Ice Country put you outside of Neko's clearing.
- Plus many more; look at the [Bug_Fixes] section in the patcher.

Patches currently included in the ZPS:
- New Gameplay Improvement (V0.18) by zhaDe
- VWF Edition (v1.00) by FuSoYa
- Proper-caser (v0.1a) by vivify93
- Relocalized (v1.7) by Timbo
- MSU-1 (v1.0) by DarkShock
- Item Limit Increase (v1.0.0) by Masterflow
- No HP Restored At Level Up (v1.0) by Kethinov
- Easier or Harder Monsters (v1.0) by Kethinov
- Level 9 Weapons Progression Balance (v1.5) by Kethinov
- Early Luna (v1.3) by Kethinov
- Restore Unused Fanfares (v1.1) by Kethinov
- No Music (v1.0) by Kethinov
- Better Default Text Boxes (v1.0) by Kethinov
- Earlier Midge Mallet (v1.0) by Kethinov
- Later Midge Mallet (v1.0) by Kethinov
- Faster Weapon Grinding (v1.0) by Kethinov
- Faster or Slower Spell Grinding (v1.0) by Kethinov
- Neko and Watts in the Mana Fortress (v1.1) by Kethinov
- Neko in the Underground City (v1.0) by Kethinov
- Watts in the Haunted Forest (v1.1) by Kethinov
- Gaia's Navel With the Girl Without Doubling Back (v1.0) by Kethinov
- Alternate Karon (v1.0, mysterious) by Kethinov
- Overworld Hidden Treasure (v1.2) by Kethinov
- More Useful Evil Gate (v1.1) by Kethinov
- Remove Barrels on Run (v1.1) by Kethinov
- Magical Herb (v1.1) by Kethinov
- Faerie Coconut (v1.1) by Kethinov
- Faerie Coconut Replacement Graphics (v1.0) by Kethinov, ThanatosZero, and Timbo
- Scroll Hack (v1.0) by Binarynova
- VC without PCM (v1.05) by DarkAkuma
- SNESCE Mempatch (v0.0) by rhester72
- Skill Screen Spaces (v0.0) by Justin3009
- Full Percentage Damage (v0.0) by Mop
- Hittable Vampires (v0.0) by Mop
- Overcharge Fix (v0.0) by Mop
- Weapon Affinity Damage (v0.0) by Mop
- Seven Items Max (v0.0) by Mop
- Super Change Form Boss Crash Fix (v0.0) by Regrs
- Luna And Dryad Weaknesses (v0.0) by Regrs
- Functional Armor Wisdom Stat (v0.0) by Regrs
- Restore Aegagropilon Devour Attack (v0.0) by Regrs

The reason for including so many, apart from convenience, is to resolve conflicts (or in some cases, bugs) between patches. The VC and SNESCE patches are mainly available for conflict testing for Canoe support. In the case of Skill Screen Spaces, I was implementing the same but having two different patches that do the same thing floating around seemed like a bad idea (that's the case for some of the other included patches as well, or there is really only one sane way to implement something and I'm giving credit for prior art when I find it, even if my recreation was coincidence).



And now a story (that basically explains why I made "Turbo Mode"):

In the Summer of 1994 I bought Secret of Mana... then the next day I went on vacation for two weeks, leaving my Super Nintendo and expensive (SquareSoft tax, wtf) new game at home. I took the game's manual along with me and read it cover to cover a few times. Needless to say, I was excited. I finally sat down and played through it and loved it.

Then time passed.

In the late '00s I was replaying some old favorites and got to Secret of Mana and... well, hated the gameplay. Why did I need to flee and cower between sword swings? Why did less than 100% attacks do jack for damage? So in 2011 I figured I could fix things. I removed stamina usage from attacks and running and streamlined the stamina UI area. I combined it with the Hard Mode Hack by Masterflow (which itself included FuSoYa's VWF Edition), generated an IPS, and gave it to a buddy as a birthday present. I also had fun playing it.

Then time passed.

My buddy (not the same one as in 2011) got a Super Nintendo Classic Edition for Christmas (2018). He started up Secret of Mana, and within minutes his wife was asking why anyone could possibly stand playing the game with the combat as it was. After relaying this to me, I remembered my project from nearly 8 years prior and suggested I might have a solution. I had about 2 weeks before we'd have a full day we could spend modifying his SNESCE (and playing), so aside from reading up on what would be needed to properly change Secret of Mana on the SNESCE (spoiler: we added it as a separate game rather than changing what was there), I figured I'd spit-shine my hack. I came across zhaDe's New Gameplay Improvement and quickly realized it'd provide most of the spit-shine I was looking for. After dealing with a speedbump in zhaDe's patch that made Canoe overturn and sink, everything went great.

Then I decided maybe I should share this with the world at large. RHDN has given me lots of fun over the years, so I figured it'd be good to give back. But applying 8 or so IPS patches as a prerequisite, adding and removing an SMC header depending on the IPS, and getting everything correct was, uh, not a great user experience. So, I ported all the dependencies from IPS to ZPS so it could all be in one patch file, with a pleasant check-box-driven selection menu.



Here are a couple other title screen images (baseline and subtly animated). I'll figure out what else is screenshot-worthy later. Probably.

(https://i.imgur.com/1vk9dYE.png)(https://i.imgur.com/qLd0VHA.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/8Y0od5u.gif)(https://i.imgur.com/vrw0fA4.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/Y686sYi.png) <= Timezone Map

I'm still working on more vanilla game bug fixes. Weapon overcharging, item trashcan abuse, item selling abuse and charge level 5 Whip are on my radar, but I'd really appreciate posts mentioning other vanilla bugs that I might not be aware of. I don't intend to fix any sequence breaks (unless they also cause data corruption), but things that get you stuck, corrupt data, or just are sloppiness (like stray pixels in art) I'm interested in.

Queue
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: vivify93 on January 31, 2019, 11:59:32 pm
Hot damn, this looks like the ultimate Secret of Mana mod.  :o Great work! And you have my approval to use my mod.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: Queue on February 01, 2019, 02:28:10 am
I'm delighted to hear from you. Thank you so much for the encouragement and permission. =)



Me getting pretty beat up during testing:
(https://i.imgur.com/Cy2b1bW.png)(https://i.imgur.com/xOCf8fK.png)

The fight's incomplete though; currently I haven't gotten his legs turning into a drill correctly. Thankfully Hiei-'s patch has the fight functioning so it's serving as a reference to cross-check against. The ultimate result may just be to use his implementation, but even detangling that from the rest of his patch looks to be non-trivial. The upshot to zhaDe's ZPS format though, is once I have everything isolated, it'll be available information by just viewing the code specific to restoring Chainsaw Kettle Kin, rather than obscure bytes among a monolithic IPS.

The picture also serves to show off the minimalist UI. It's nothing spectacular, but gets a useless empty border out of the way. I'm open to suggestions regarding the mana display positioning.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: darthvaderx on February 01, 2019, 06:24:00 am
-Better Default Text Boxes (1.0) by Kethinov is very good too.

My combo:

1-MSU-1 (v1.0) by DarkShock
2-Scroll Hack (v1.0) by Binarynova (Add Header)
3-Proper-caser (v0.1a) by vivify93 (Remove Header)
4-Variable Width Font Edition (v1.0) by FuSoYa (Add Header)
5-Drop Table Balance (v1.0) by Kethinov
6-Item Limit Increase (v1.0.0) by Masterflow (Remove Header)
7-Restore Unused Fanfares (v1.0) by Kethinov
8-Level 9 Weapons Progression Balance (v1.2) by Kethinov
9-Better Default Text Boxes (1.0) by Kethinov

I'm considering this hack as well, but only after it gets fully done.

10-Relocalized (vFinal) by Timbo
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: acediez on February 01, 2019, 07:19:00 am
Looking forward to trying this hack! The things you describe sound like what I expected SoM to be when I first played it: a more straightforward and fast paced action RPG, more similar to Illusion of Gaia. Removing all the waiting inherit to the combat system sounds like a great idea
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: Timbo on February 01, 2019, 10:50:33 am
Well this just about changes everything.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: Gi Nattak on February 01, 2019, 01:35:21 pm
This is very cool, as is the other included patches and zhaDe's mod of course, but I must ask: wouldn't this make the game that much easier, not having to take into account re-charging up the weapon for max damage each time? I never found it as a nuisance really as it made sense as a sort of ATB bar and gives the battles a bit of strategic merit - swinging weapon around over and over takes energy lol. Running taking stamina does kinda suck, but not as much as running in a straight line lol.. But yeah I find attacking without charging back up useful as well, to keep the enemy stun-locked or just if I wasn't able to charge back up fully. I guess what I'm saying is the stamina/atb charging is an essential structure to the battle system and removing it would basically render stamina useless? Does the stamina stat even dictate how fast the character recharges up to 100% anyway, I've never thought much about character stats in SoM.

I'm not too sure what these two features are also, if anyone could please enlighten me:
- Streamlines weapon charging UI
- Removes weapon charging klaxon
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: Timbo on February 01, 2019, 01:43:53 pm
This is very cool, as is the other included patches and zhaDe's mod of course, but I must ask: wouldn't this make the game that much easier, not having to take into account re-charging up the weapon for max damage each time? I never found it as a nuisance really as it made sense as a sort of ATB bar and gives the battles a bit of strategic merit - swinging weapon around over and over takes energy lol. Running taking stamina does kinda suck, but not as much as running in a straight line lol.. But yeah I find attacking without charging back up useful as well, to keep the enemy stun-locked or just if I wasn't able to charge back up fully. I guess what I'm saying is the stamina/atb charging is an essential structure to the battle system and removing it would basically render stamina useless? Does the stamina stat even dictate how fast the character recharges up to 100% anyway, I've never thought much about character stats in SoM.

I'm not too sure what these two features are also, if anyone could please enlighten me:
- Streamlines weapon charging UI
- Removes weapon charging klaxon

I would like to mirror Gi Nattak's questions. I've seen the screenshots and I've got to say, I kind of miss the little weapon charging HUD. What would be neat is if the code could make it appear for player controlled characters only. Could we maybe get a video so we can see it in action?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: chillyfeez on February 01, 2019, 03:14:39 pm
I think difficulty could be fixed by increasing enemy defense, or HP, or both. On the whole it'd end up just making the game more fast-paced, which seems like a good thing to me.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: Timbo on February 01, 2019, 03:25:59 pm
-Better Default Text Boxes (1.0) by Kethinov is very good too.

My combo:

1-MSU-1 (v1.0) by DarkShock
2-Scroll Hack (v1.0) by Binarynova (Add Header)
3-Proper-caser (v0.1a) by vivify93 (Remove Header)
4-Variable Width Font Edition (v1.0) by FuSoYa (Add Header)
5-Drop Table Balance (v1.0) by Kethinov
6-Item Limit Increase (v1.0.0) by Masterflow (Remove Header)
7-Restore Unused Fanfares (v1.0) by Kethinov
8-Level 9 Weapons Progression Balance (v1.2) by Kethinov
9-Better Default Text Boxes (1.0) by Kethinov

I'm considering this hack as well, but only after it gets fully done.

10-Relocalized (vFinal) by Timbo

Oh, this was going to be final as of last night when they approved 1.3...

I suspect the reason Queue hasn't included Relocalized in his list of hacks is because of the changes to the title crawl sequence which includes big compressed blocks of code for the palette, the script, the tiles, the background, and code for loading that background.

I was "assisting" Mziab on this very task yesterday when I decided that I would save the background and text changes for the HDemake project we're working on instead.

I can and probably will do an update that doesn't touch the intro at all in order to ensure maximum compatibility.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: IcePenguin on February 01, 2019, 09:44:03 pm
Wow, I'm super excited for this.  I could relate a lot to your story, and how your gameplay tastes changed over the years.  Hope all goes well with your project!   Also, I'm gonna show this to my friend (he isn't into modding), since SoM is one of his favorite games. 

- Stairs don't prevent running (but still slow you)

This change is the best!  I always hated going on the stairs in SoM.  :P
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: KingMike on February 01, 2019, 09:46:32 pm
Don't run on stairs, you could trip and hurt yourself. :D
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: Queue on February 02, 2019, 06:41:33 am
Geez, I'm sort've overwhelmed by the positive response to this. Let's see...



Gi Nattak:
Yes, this definitely makes combat easier without additional balance tweaks; it plays much more like an old Zelda game where you can just go nuts slashing on one enemy to keep them locked down, though that won't stop other enemies from smacking you in the back. And no, I don't especially care that it makes combat easier; fundamentally, the game is already fairly easy, but it's also tedious and really cheese-able. Turbo Mode resolves the tedium, and zhaDe's spell cooldown resolves the magic cheese. Probably the most straightforward way to balance things would be to reduce all weapon attack values (rather than changing every enemy) but currently that's not in my plans. I expect once I've cross-checked everything, this would be compatible with the Hard Mode hack if you just want longer fights (back in 2011 I played the simpler version combined with Hard Mode and it was pretty good up until Pure Land).

I have no clue what the stamina stat does, or like, any stat really. I hadn't even thought about it until you asked.

Streamlines weapon charging UI = Makes most of it invisible until you actually start charging a weapon.

Removes weapon charging klaxon = Gets rid of the weird alarm sound effect that loops while charging up. There's still a mild "tick" sound for each charge level.



Timbo:
The invisible HUD is 99% just an art change, and it can be split into a toggleable option via the way zhaDe's ZPS patch format works. It would be possible to change HUD visibility based on whether a given character is player controlled, but that would surely be not insignificant work.

I'm not really set up for recording video.

I haven't included Relocalized yet primarily because it's still in progress (that was my perception anyway) and it's fairly substantial. Oh, and after looking at your thread, it seemed like some of the junk I was working on (title screen, Kettle Kin) would be stuff you'd want to use, so I was partially working on getting my stuff usable in yours instead of the other way around, but I'm not averse to the other direction or both.

For reference, FuSoYa's VWF Edition comprises over half the raw bytes of the entire ZPS file currently and is effectively just a massive blob of raw data taken straight from the IPS (and that's assuming it stays in; I haven't had a chance to start reaching out for permission for things, and this one especially concerns me), but it's almost all neatly contained in one large block; its patches to vanilla code are fairly few, just hooks to call to code residing in said large block.

Relocalized is somewhere in the same (IPS file) size range and I haven't committed to analyzing it yet.

Proper-caser seems to be just pure data so was cake to get imported and doesn't seem to conflict with anything.

The MSU-1 patch touches some important stuff (like the NMI handler). I noticed writes in bank 7F RAM where they didn't make sense while working on the title screen stuff. I tracked the writes to the MSU-1 patch, so I disassembled the entire thing to figure out why, and found 4 potential bugs that I patch on top of. It was generally using long addresses, but was using STZ and CPX while assuming a data bank of 7E which wasn't true during the title screen (at the very least). This took up a full day's SoM hacking fun time and it's not especially big.

Kethinov's stuff tends to be only a handful of bytes changed per patch so I can get it chopped up, imported and verified for compatibility in just a few minutes. I just haven't gotten to all of their stuff yet.

So please don't take Relocalized's omission as a slight, it's definitely on my radar.



IcePenguin:
I'm especially happy about the stair running: in 2011 I couldn't figure out how to change that so it was objective number one when I got back into this.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: IcePenguin on February 02, 2019, 09:30:39 am
I'm especially happy about the stair running: in 2011 I couldn't figure out how to change that so it was objective number one when I got back into this.

Truly, an excellent change!  I never imagined that someone would actually fix this, ha ha.  As I was reading your original post, I cheered when I read that part.   :laugh:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: teahouser on February 02, 2019, 02:19:09 pm
Really nice to finally seeing what SoM's title screen should have looked like from the beginning! Really excited to play this project, I'll be glad to test it on Canoe once its released.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: Queue on February 02, 2019, 06:15:46 pm
Here's an example shot of zhaDe's patcher showing the description formatting as I currently have it:
(https://i.imgur.com/YBnA5js.png)

And I didn't have enough time when I last sat down to continue work on Kettle Kin, so I played with some art assets by redoing the weapon charge numeral graphics. I crammed in a full-size forward slash and 5x5 versions of the 6x6 health numerals.
(https://i.imgur.com/yjP1w2T.png)
I tried a couple other styles but I think this one looked nicest. If it's not clear what I'm talking about, it's the little 4/6 beside the boy's weapon charge bar. Compare with the vanilla numeral art in the Kettle Kin screenshots.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: KingMike on February 02, 2019, 09:51:25 pm
Does VWF apply to the menu screens as well?
I already thought the original translation menu font (which is the regular font displayed in high resolution) was far too small.
I think VWF in that same font would be the same as the "tiny fonts on SD" complaint people have about modern games.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: Uberdubie on February 04, 2019, 01:24:00 am
Everything here sounds near-perfect if it's half-way as good as it sounds.  Although there's one thing I've always wanted in SoM and haven't seen it in a romhack yet.  Rather than stupidly being forced to get hit by some specific attacks, being able to skillfully dodge certain attacks.  The best example I can think to use here is the mantis boss/tutorial right at the start of the game.  He attacks you with an unnamed claw attack that sends a 'sonicboom-like' projectile that is nearly-impossible to evade by skill -- it'll hit you even if the graphic comes nowhere near your character.  Since I haven't played the manual block/dodge hack yet, perhaps this problem gets addressed there to some extent.

Very much like you Queue, I got a SNES Classic for Christmas 2018 and decided to introduce this incredible game from my childhood to my wife (who also loved her SNES as a kid, but never got into RPGs like me at that time).  Overall she was really enjoying herself, until coming to this first boss and being attacked by this claw projectile multiple times.  "...what?  That's bullsh**!  Why am I still being hit by that when I obviously evaded it?"  I didn't have an answer for her, and found myself equally annoyed -- then remembered how I always found this part of SoM's combat a bit lazy.  Basic magic attacks are one thing, but it would be an massive game-improvement if many attacks like these were dodgeable.  Not sure if it's possible, but considering how ambitious this project sounds, maybe it is.

I'll gladly hold-off our playthrough until there you choose this project is ready for release -- looking forward to this immensely!

Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: mziab on February 04, 2019, 11:21:02 am
Does VWF apply to the menu screens as well?
I already thought the original translation menu font (which is the regular font displayed in high resolution) was far too small.
I think VWF in that same font would be the same as the "tiny fonts on SD" complaint people have about modern games.

FuSoYa's patch, which is used here, only implements a dialogue VWF. And the font used for that is the good old Chicago, so there should be no problems with readability :)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: OMorty on February 04, 2019, 04:06:50 pm
Queue, thank you so much for streamlining the Secret of Mana patching process! That, combined with your new bug fixes and gameplay tweaks, should make for the best version of Secret of Mana to date!

Any plans to add the Earlier Midge Mallet patch to the Turbo patcher? If not, no biggie!

As an aside, part of me would also get a good chuckle out of having the "Turbo" from the Street Fighter II Turbo logo slapped onto the Secret of Mana logo. I'm sure adding that would be more trouble than it's worth, though. :P
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: Queue on February 04, 2019, 10:36:04 pm
Uberdubie:
Good news! The Manual Blocking from zhaDe's Gameplay Improvement (which is inherently part of Turbo) works great against most of the BS boss attacks, and the Mantis sonicboom is among those blockable. It works against any attacks that specifically aren't spells, so as long as you block, you're safe. However, nothing will protect you from spells (except magic that protects you from spells).

The blocking is sorta too good at the moment, but you also can't attack (or do anything else) while blocking, so I'm not really concerned. Probably the most unfair gimmick is you can hold block after an enemy eats you and it will protect you from the damage you take when spit out. Not totally sure I want to change that because the attacks are definitely in the BS category but that's not set in stone.



OMorty:
Yeah, I plan to add all of Kethinov's stuff, though I still need to get in contact with them to check their opinion on doing so.

The logo accent has been on my mind since I chose the name, but editing the logo is a huge pain in the butt, especially if I do it how I want to (the "Turbo" word wouldn't show until later in the intro after the letterbox has opened wide). I played with doing it in black so it'd be hidden by the letterbox due to matching color, but it looked crummy. The palette has good shades of red though so it's within the realm of possible, just low priority since it's a lot of work for a trivial reward.



Here's what I've done since my last post:
- Improved FastROM implementation (this has the strongest effect on ZSNES, so bummer if you don't like ZSNES; speed improvements on more accurate emulators are less pronounced)
- Fixed Rain of Arrows in locations where it didn't work
- Fixed CPU-controlled ally's charge bar sometimes not disappearing
- Slightly increased bow range over zhaDe's already slight increase
- Fixed the character permadeath bug, probably (I don't know how to reliably reproduce it)
- Implemented a fix so that wisdom stat on armor works (pretty sure Regrs was the first person to specify this fix)
- Implemented a variation of Mop's Weapon Affinity damage fix (so that weapons that say they're strong against X actually are); +25% damage
- Split Faster CPU Ally decision making off from zhaDe's Better CPU Ally AI
- Implemented a fix related to a Mana Tree cutscene when using [CPUs_Dont_Block_Screen] and / or [Walk_To_Edges_Of_Screen] (thanks to Mop and Timbo)
- Implemented a variation of Mop's weapon Overcharge fix
- Implemented Mop's Hittable Vampires patch (that lets a vampire be attacked when their cape is closed, this will likely be off by default depending on balance implications)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: IcePenguin on February 05, 2019, 08:16:10 am
I know pretty much nothing of what's been done in the SoM modding scene, but has anyone improved the party AI so they don't get stuck on stuff?  If I remember right, they will spawn to your location if you open the menus, but having them do it after a certain, reasonable, distance would be awesome.

Anyway, just curious!  :)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: Queue on February 05, 2019, 04:51:41 pm
Yeah, zhaDe's Gameplay Improvement includes teleporting stuck AI teammates to you. It makes a world of difference.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: IcePenguin on February 05, 2019, 05:02:12 pm
Yeah, zhaDe's Gameplay Improvement includes teleporting stuck AI teammates to you. It makes a world of difference.

Most excellent!  I eagerly wait for the completion of your project.  :D
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: Queue on February 06, 2019, 06:53:28 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/wGTL1mj.png)
Finally got his drill legs figured out (mostly). Not quite finished but like 95%.

Other stuff since my last post:
- Whip now has negative knockback; it pulls enemies towards you
- Can no longer block while disabled (by a status effect, e.g. frostied)
- Can no longer switch weapons while disabled
- Fixed some attacking while disabled issues (non-vanilla issues), but some not fixed yet
- Confirmed permadeath fix works (at least for one circumstance that can cause it, hopefully all)
- A limited selection of status effects now disable the quick spell casting menu
- Restored Aegagropilon's devour attack (thanks to Regrs notes on the matter)
- Isolated title screen stuff so it's easier to use on its own with other SoM patches
- Wasted lots of time not realizing nesting IFs has caveats with the ZPS format
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: PresidentLeever on February 07, 2019, 01:51:41 pm
Stamina meter makes sense in multiplayer but the scaling of it never did. Will be interesting to try this, though I'm thinking the enemies will need some tweaks or it'll be too easy.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: Queue on February 11, 2019, 02:41:08 pm
There, a 25 year nitpick, finally fixed:
(https://i.imgur.com/vrw0fA4.gif)
(Go look at a fountain in-game if what you're seeing isn't obvious.)

You can get an early peek at the restored title screen image and Kettle Kin fight in Secret of Mana - Relocalized, version 1.4 (or newer). https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4324/ (https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4324/)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: superfantendo on February 14, 2019, 08:23:01 am
This whole project makes me want to get a SNES Classic just to replace its SOM with SOMT.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: CountBuggula on February 14, 2019, 12:21:50 pm
There, a 25 year nitpick, finally fixed:
(http://i.imgur.com/vrw0fA4.gif)
(Go look at a fountain in-game if what you're seeing isn't obvious.)

That always bugged me too!  I'm so glad I'm not the only one.

I started playing through using 1.4 and I have to say I'm super impressed so far.  Keep up the good work, this is exciting stuff.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: teahouser on February 14, 2019, 07:39:50 pm
If you want this to run perfectly on the SNES classic, you'll need to have a patch to fix the high gamma in the menus. Sluffy made some patches to fix the gamma in the PAL releases of Som, but the patch also converted it to 60hz from 50hz PAL. If you applied sluffy's patch to those PAL ROMs and saw what bytes it changed you could figure out how to make a patch to fix the gamma in your US 1.1 ROM.

Other than a patch to fix the high gamma in menus your version of the game should play flawlessly on Canoe. I'm excited for your release.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: ChrisHighwind on February 14, 2019, 09:39:28 pm
"- Removes stamina (attacking / running / blocking)"

Thank you! I had the same thought you did when I first played Secret of Mana, having not played it as a child. I was used to Zelda's method of attacking and I thought SoM would be similar, so imagine my displeasure when trying to play SoM like a Zelda game resulted in my attacks doing pitiful damage after the first swing, which turned me off of the game completely. And yet, for some reason everyone else loves the stamina mechanic because no other hack removes it. I just don't get it. Glad to know someone else out there isn't a fan of having to wait until they can attack again just to have full damage.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: Gi Nattak on February 15, 2019, 12:44:34 pm
I really do like the Stamina mechanic. Zelda: LTTP and SoM combat are quite different, yes, but I don't see one as better than the other; the flow of battling enemies in SoM feels different/unique to the game, thus becoming a bit more strategic and RPG-like than LTTP or Terranigma etc., which is obviously what they were going for. I do think, however, that the Stamina mechanic would greatly benefit from filling up faster with a higher Stamina rating, which I'm not sure it does...I never noticed it anyway. That would certainly be a more legit way to go about bettering it instead of simply stripping the mechanic from the game.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: IcePenguin on February 15, 2019, 12:57:23 pm
If you want this to run perfectly on the SNES classic, you'll need to have a patch to fix the high gamma in the menus. Sluffy made some patches to fix the gamma in the PAL releases of Som, but the patch also converted it to 60hz from 50hz PAL. If you applied sluffy's patch to those PAL ROMs and saw what bytes it changed you could figure out how to make a patch to fix the gamma in your US 1.1 ROM.

Other than a patch to fix the high gamma in menus your version of the game should play flawlessly on Canoe. I'm excited for your release.

I'm glad you brought this up.  Hopefully this will be considered, as being able to play on SNES classic would be very cool.

I really do like the Stamina mechanic. Zelda: LTTP and SoM combat are quite different, yes, but I don't see one as better than the other; the flow of battling enemies in SoM feels different/unique to the game, thus becoming more strategic and RPG-like than LTTP, which is obviously what they were going for. I do think, however, that the Stamina mechanic would greatly benefit from filling up faster with a higher Stamina rating, which I'm not sure it does...I never noticed it anyway. That would certainly be a more legit way to go about bettering it instead of simply stripping the mechanic from the game.

That's a really good idea.  I could see many people enjoying something like that.  I'm looking forward to playing with no stamina, though, just because it will offer a fresh new way to play the game.  :)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: chillyfeez on February 15, 2019, 01:55:00 pm
I just thought of something...
It's been a few years since I played SoM, but now that I think about it, I seem to remember that monsters fight as though they are subject to the same stamina constraints as players, waiting in between attacks and even sometimes unleashing a stronger attack after a longer delay. Am I remembering correctly, and if so, does this hack do anything about that?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: Queue on February 15, 2019, 04:25:52 pm
No worries regarding the SNES Classic Edition, this whole project started specifically because I wanted to put a modified Secret of Mana on my buddy's SNESCE. And we did, and it worked correctly. DarkAkuma (the sfrom Tool creator) did the legwork to get the normal US Secret of Mana version to correctly reinsert on a SNESCE, and Turbo relies on that. Stuff regarding the European versions isn't actually relevant; it only applies to them.

Keep in mind that the patcher system being used for this lets you turn specific options on and off; the "Turbo Mode" feature of completely stripping stamina is just another checkbox you can disable. I'll toss in a faster stamina option because it's trivial (when you perform an action, it sets your stamina to a value that has to be recovered; halving said value would roughly halve recovery time).

Yes, monsters have stamina. And Turbo Mode also means they don't anymore. So they're a little more aggressive.

While stamina removal makes the game easier, the concerns are overblown: the game isn't hard to begin with and is extremely cheese-able with magic, and you don't have to enable stamina removal, jeez. You can make various changes to up difficulty to compensate, and the enemies not having stamina means they're a fair bit more aggressive. By default I have zhaDe's magic cooldowns enabled which reduces spell cheese (which I consider a far bigger problem for game difficulty than stamina).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: IcePenguin on February 16, 2019, 01:35:40 am
No worries regarding the SNES Classic Edition, this whole project started specifically because I wanted to put a modified Secret of Mana on my buddy's SNESCE.

Same here!  Glad to hear the good news.  :)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: Gi Nattak on February 16, 2019, 12:52:14 pm
No stamina/charging % definitely fits with the hack name, all's I'm saying is that is will remove an integral part that makes SoM combat system what it is, instead of tweaking it to be something better. But again, considering the hack title, it does seem appropriate. Glad to know it will be optional, though.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: Queue on February 19, 2019, 07:00:06 pm
Stuff I've done since last post:
- Fixed bad level 9 sword + Mana Magic interaction (when it fades, you have a bad weapon equipped)
- Fixed charged up whip attacks used on whip posts potentially throwing you off cliffs (a charged up whip attack simply isn't valid for gap crossing anymore; at first I just blocked charge 5, but then realized some other charge attacks have issues so just blocked them all)
- Cleaned up lots of buggy out of bounds graphics; some could only be seen using something like Scroll Hack to see farther than vanilla, but some were visible even vanilla (like the topless tree in the rabbite field just after getting the rusty sword, or the upper right in Todo Village when you play a drum).
- Fixed some boss fight rooms where hugging the left wall could make the boss invisible, particularly when using Scroll Hack; still have some left to adjust
- Fixed Mana Tree cutscene bug related to zhaDe's CPUs_Dont_Block_Screen and Walk_To_Edges_Of_Screen
- Added an off-by-default Centered_Camera (think extreme Scroll Hack), especially useful for spotting janky graphics
- Added a fun little "Turbo" logo to the title screen logo that shows up after the intro text crawl ends
- Committed a crime by changing the title screen music; the logo and music are an optional "Turbo Logo" option in the title screen patch options
- Added a safety music fade out when the title sequence loops; some emulators don't keep the music and visuals sync'd correctly so music can abruptly cut off in some circumstances
- Probably a few other things I failed to notice in the text diff or that aren't worth mentioning
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: chillyfeez on February 19, 2019, 11:37:14 pm
- Committed a crime by changing the title screen music; the logo and music are an optional "Turbo Logo" option in the title screen patch options
Lol. Is it an original song, or did you "turbo" up the original?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: Queue on February 20, 2019, 12:38:09 am
Neither. I took a different SoM song that had the intensity I wanted to go with the Turbo logo and then adjusted the instrument selection so it'd be varied from its usual use in the game. There are 5 unused music tracks in the game's music pointer table so I just altered one.

Well, sort've unused, all 5 point to the same score, and have a terrible set of instruments hooked up so it doesn't sound like music. If you change the instrument set for them, it's actually music, though seems to be simpler than most SoM music. So I guess there's an unused song buried in SoM's data? And to be clear, while I changed one of the 5 the other 4 are all identical, so I didn't even hurt availability of said mystery song (if someone knows something about it, I'm all ears).

Edit: Aw, the unused song is just the song "A Conclusion" with the wrong instruments. Bummer.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: Queue on March 03, 2019, 05:03:07 pm
Okay, finally time for the first public release.

https://ufile.io/uegcv (https://ufile.io/uegcv)

That download should last for about a week. No frills since this is a release for testing, so no sfrom patch or boxart image, just the ZPS patcher, ZPS patch and other author's readmes. I'll write up a changelist in a bit. Need a drink.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: Masaru on March 03, 2019, 07:31:49 pm
Ok, i patched the restore title screen, desativated the clean aesthetic and patched it with relocalized, but when patch it with relocalized it does not desactivate the clean aesthetic and remains with the legalece desactivated
(https://imgur.com/a/RQFfNix)
When you patch the thing to be the more closer to the japanese (Restore Warp Tile, Restore title screen, restore kettle kin, Safe save state) in the vanilla rom, the game crashes when you enter to the save/load menu
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: Queue on March 03, 2019, 08:00:37 pm
Currently [Relocalized] overrides all title screen crawl text so [Clean_Aesthetic] only affects the TM on the main logo. This may or may not change depending on if there's enough space in [Relocalized]'s text crawl to re-insert the legalese.

Whoops, it's an issue with [Safe_Save_State] with that minimalist combination of settings. It'll be fixed for the next release.

For now, if you want to use [Safe_Save_State], you need the [Combat] or [Quality_of_life] sections turned on (even if all options within the section are disabled). When turning on a section but disabling all its features, be careful to not uncheck the !!_Inverted settings within that section (since unchecking !! features turns them on).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: Masaru on March 03, 2019, 08:21:47 pm
i also discovered when you patch the things to decensore SoM in the vanilla version, the game dosen't passes from the naming menu because the game crash if you press start after naming your character
(But this only happens in the vanilla version, it does not happen with vwf+proper caser)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: Queue on March 03, 2019, 09:35:37 pm
If I turn off everything except
[Restore_Warp_Tiles]
[Restore_Title_Screen]
[Restore_Kettle_Kin]
I can get in-game and stuff works.

What else do you have turned on? So I can figure out what I messed up on. I know the checkbox list is pretty huge, but if you don't have too many enabled, listing them shouldn't be too bad.

Edit:
It looks like a missing dependency for the entire [[Bug_Fixes]] section, so I assume that's where that issue lies; like with [Safe_Save_State], for now, you can enable the [[Combat]] or [[Quality_of_Life]] sections to work around the issue until I spit out a revision. I tested a lot of combinations but I pretty much always used [[Combat]] and/or [[Quality_of_Life]] features, or was only testing other authors' integrated patches, so hadn't run into these issues. Thanks for reporting these.

Edit2:
Updated. Hopefully resolved the issues you found Masaru.
https://ufile.io/uegcv (https://ufile.io/uegcv)

Edit3:
Stuff added since I'd last written on the subject Feb 19th:
- Added double stamina regen as an option. For anyone curious, in vanilla SoM, when you perform an action that resets your stamina, it's (100 - agility) / 2 + 50 stamina that has to be recovered... I think... okay I'm going by memory and I've been looking at a lot of numbers lately, but that's probably right. This feature simply doubles how fast stamina is recovered after that "exhaustion" value is set.
- Split zhaDe's [Faster_Enemies] feature in half; faster decision making is now on by default while faster movement is off by default. The faster movement seemed to be screwy in some cases, and requires further testing.
- Split zhaDe's [Spell_NewEffects] into 4 separate options:
[Spell_Power_Tweaks]
[Extend_Buff_Time]
[Acid_Storm_-_Magic_Def_Down]
[Speed_Up_-_Faster_Recharge]
The patcher has full descriptions of each.
- Finished importing [Relocalized] v1.5.
- Implemented a fix for a hang when trying to open a ring menu for a party member that's offscreen. I forget if I mentioned this one already.
- Improved FastROM code. It's probably safe to use now regardless of emulator. Not sure how real hardware handles it.
- Jazzed up the NAS easter egg font.
- Modified the Mantis Ant tutorial slightly depending on if you have [Turbo_Mode] and/or [Manual_Block] enabled.
- Implemented 8-direction sword thrusts. Just a slight perk to differentiate the signature weapon.
- Shifted more boss rooms right.
- Further whip post fixes.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: Masaru on March 04, 2019, 09:43:54 am
A feedback i could do for the next time is include a patch what restores the square legalece to be more closer to the original japanese release
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo
Post by: CountBuggula on March 04, 2019, 02:54:54 pm
Awesome work!  I'm really looking forward to taking the time to dive into this and enjoy a fresh playthrough, but I have to say that even just the new patching process is SO incredibly nice and makes combining all the patches I like to use for this game so much easier.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Public Beta 190304
Post by: Queue on March 05, 2019, 02:10:20 pm
Small quality of life experiment for the patcher: a helper script that deals with the "Finished !" modal dialog box, renaming the output SMC if left at the default (of patched.smc) and adds a minor noise when patching finishes.

You can also use the helper script to launch the patcher and auto-fill the "ZPS Patch" and "SNES ROM" fields, but the script is pretty janky in that regard and will probably fail on some computers due to timing / language differences / Windows version differences / etc. If it proves useful, I'll see about improving its reliability.

Also changed the [VWF_Edition] and [Relocalized] interaction so [Relocalized] will still be applied even if [VWF_Edition] is unchecked (previous behavior was to not apply [Relocalized] unless [VWF_Edition] was enabled).

Turbo Version 190304:
https://ufile.io/uk5dh (https://ufile.io/uk5dh)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190304
Post by: darthvaderx on March 05, 2019, 08:03:39 pm
A suggestion:

Better Default Text Boxes hack by Kethinov

(https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/snes/images/4310screenshot2.png)

The dialog boxes looked much better and would be a good differential for your hack.

And a question:

Your hack is compatible with 'Drop Table Balance' hack by Kethinov?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190306
Post by: Queue on March 05, 2019, 10:19:02 pm
I'll be adding all of Kethinov's stuff into the Turbo patcher eventually, just hadn't gotten that far; started with the stuff I personally use and am expanding from there. It's also not always clear how much work incorporating an existing patch / hack / modification / whatever-term-you-like will be. For example, the three of Kethinov's I've included so far all need compatibility adjustments depending on if you're using the vanilla script, FuSoYa's VWF Edition or Timbo's Relocalized; while Kethinov's hacks provided compatibility with VWF Edition, they require modification to work with Relocalized.

Based on experience, my guess is "Better Default Text Boxes" and "Drop Table Balance" are fully compatible as-is, "Earlier Midge Mallet" and "Later Midge Mallet" will need fixups for Relocalized, and "No HP Restored At Level Up" will possibly need fixups (and the later three will probably break the game if applied to Relocalized as-is). I haven't actually torn into them yet though, those are just guesses.

Edit: Working on getting in a "Japanese Legalese" option, and adding compatibility for disabling [Clean_Aesthetics] to Relocalized; Timbo left me space to work with at the end of his modified text crawl so will be a piece of cake. :thumbsup:

March 06, 2019, 06:54:51 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Version 2019-03-06:
https://ufile.io/juej2

Added [Japanese_Legalese], Kethinov's [Better_Default_Text_Boxes] (and made it configurable so you can set which of the 8 styles is the default), implemented more [[Title_Screen]] features for [Relocalized], made [Turbo_Logo]'s uh, basically thread-safety more robust, made a file rename in the Helper Script more robust.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190306
Post by: acediez on March 06, 2019, 08:58:00 pm
I'm very excited to try this once I find some time to play a decent sitting. Congratulations on the beta release!
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190307
Post by: Queue on March 07, 2019, 11:55:52 pm
Thanks!

Version 2019-03-07:
https://ufile.io/votft (https://ufile.io/votft)

Added Kethinov's "No HP Restored At Level Up" and Regrs (?) "Super Change Form Boss Crash Fix" (in vanilla, level up Luna then go cast Change Form on a boss; it's a pretty exciting crash). Only three more Kethinov hacks to go!

Made [Magic_Recharging] recharge times configurable (in the Advanced Options menu), and also prettied up the Advanced Options menu. Renamed [Spirits_Default_Levels] to [Default_Spirit_Levels] and tweaked some option descriptions.

Made the Helper Script adjust ROM size after patching; if there's nothing in the 4th MB it will be truncated to a 3 MB ROM, and if there's also nothing in the 3rd MB, it will be truncated back to the vanilla 2 MB ROM size. So if you enable only FuSoYa's VWF Edition feature, the ROM will be 3 MB, for example.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190306
Post by: Timbo on March 07, 2019, 11:57:28 pm
This is spectacular mate.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190307
Post by: TamagoKakeZero on March 08, 2019, 02:05:56 am
So excited to see this released. I played this through with two friends of mine who had never play SoM before and it was an absolute blast. Thanks a ton for all your hard work, Queue!
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190307
Post by: Queue on March 09, 2019, 03:41:06 pm
I could use some help spotting bad map tiles; some examples:
(https://i.imgur.com/m1PuyDS.png)

The bottom two have been fixed in Turbo for a while, but I haven't gotten to the top two yet. Some are only visible if you use [Scroll_Hack] (or similar that let you see farther than vanilla), but some are mistakes visible in vanilla (like those bottom two examples).

I'm interested in any that are visible in vanilla or specifically with [Scroll_Hack]; [Centered_Camera] exposes issues that are practically unfixable, but [Scroll_Hack] isn't as extreme and I'd like it to be an always-acceptable option without running into graphical oddities. It'd be best if you have [Tidy_Map_Pieces] applied since I've already fixed a handful, so it'd save re-reporting something I already fixed, but I'll take any help I can get on this.

Screenshots with stuff circled (etc.) would probably be best. Please note that fixing maps in somedit isn't an option, so for anyone considering that, it's a nice thought, but the result is unusable.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190307
Post by: IcePenguin on March 09, 2019, 03:55:36 pm
I could use some help spotting bad map tiles; some examples:
(http://i.imgur.com/m1PuyDS.png)

Wow, you sure have a keen eye for detail!   :thumbsup:  I'm surprised these were in the original game.  Never noticed them before, ha ha.  I don't know much about the [Scroll_Hack] of which you speak, but seeing that there are gfx at all, beyond the default view, is really cool.   Interesting stuff!
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190314
Post by: Queue on March 14, 2019, 11:41:58 pm
Dang, was hoping someone would be as nit-picky as me and round up some screenshots for me. Oh well.

Version 2019-03-14:
https://ufile.io/bu9qf

Changes (since 190307):
- Added an [[Audio]] section and moved some features to it
- Added a tiny bit of momentum to spear thrusts
- Changed MP HUD label graphic (if [Turbo_HUD] is enabled)
- Added Mop's [Seven_Items_Max] as an alternative to Masterflow's Nine; the 9 limit makes item save data incompatible with vanilla, while 7 is safe
- Added HUD portrait corners transparency hack; the sprite's portrait now has rounded corners like the boy's and girl's (also fixes pointy portrait corners for stuff like frostied, moogled, etc.)
- Tweak that keeps attack sounds from blocking themselves; e.g. fixes silent whip attacks
- Added BRK / COP handler, not important for the end user, but documenting it anyway
- Overhauled [Safe_Save_State]; hotkey combo is now start + select, shows a PAUSE label, and a state saved while the PAUSE label shows can be successfully loaded on a vanilla unmodified ROM
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190314
Post by: ChrisHighwind on March 15, 2019, 01:13:29 pm
I can't remember if I played the March 3rd build or the March 7th, but one of those builds had an issue where the music sounded off. Has that been fixed in this new build?

EDIT: Nevermind, turning off FastROM fixed it.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190314
Post by: Queue on March 15, 2019, 02:17:36 pm
I can't remember if I played the March 3rd build or the March 7th, but one of those builds had an issue where the music sounded off. Has that been fixed in this new build?

EDIT: Nevermind, turning off FastROM fixed it.
I've had someone else report this as well. Which emulator has this issue? Specific version info may be necessary to track this down, as it's been reported for variants of Snes9x, but the version of Snes9x I tested on sounded normal. Can you give more detail about what's wrong with the music? And yes, it's related to FastROM.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190314
Post by: ChrisHighwind on March 15, 2019, 02:21:39 pm
I've had someone else report this as well. Which emulator has this issue? Specific version info may be necessary to track this down, as it's been reported for variants of Snes9x, but the version of Snes9x I tested on sounded normal. Can you give more detail about what's wrong with the music? And yes, it's related to FastROM.

I've played it on SNES9X 2005 on RetroArch Vita and SNES9X for 3DS, and both had the audio issue.

Of course, now a new bug is when I get the Unconscious status, my character gets right back up and I end up softlocked and unable to move until I reset the game.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190314
Post by: shogun1983 on March 15, 2019, 02:55:41 pm
I am about to try this on my sd2snes on an original snes. I unchecked VC, SNESCE, and fastrom. Anything else I should change?

EDIT: so far so good with this^ The MSU1 music sounds great.

Title screen looks amazing. Hard to get a good picture of a crt though: https://imgur.com/a/yTsA8IG
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190314
Post by: maseter on March 15, 2019, 04:43:26 pm
Have you considered also including the "Better Default Text Boxes" with this?
(https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/snes/images/4310screenshot2.png)
link to romhack: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4310/ (https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4310/)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190314
Post by: darthvaderx on March 15, 2019, 08:31:44 pm
Have you considered also including the "Better Default Text Boxes" with this?
(https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/snes/images/4310screenshot2.png)
link to romhack: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4310/ (https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4310/)

It is already included in the latest versions, but I missed the 'Earlier Midge Mallet' hack:

https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4335/ (https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4335/)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190315
Post by: Queue on March 16, 2019, 02:39:27 am
Version 2019-03-15:
https://ufile.io/r8fn1 (https://ufile.io/r8fn1)

Changes:
- Boomerang quick throw now begins return on contact with an enemy
- Boomerang can now damage enemies during return
- Added SFROM generation to Helper Script if you enable VC_without_PCM (by UNCHECKING it, it's inverted)
- Added right align fix for merchants in Relocalized 1.5



darthvaderx:
I'll get the last of Kethinov's patches imported eventually.

shogun1983:
That. Is. Beautiful.
Thank you for sharing that.

ChrisHighwind:
Are you using a recent version? I had seen a problem with player unconscious state but I thought I resolved it before the first public release, so I'm kind've at a loss. In recent play-testing though, I haven't had any issues when getting knocked unconscious, so I'll need a description of where it's happening (like a specific enemy, boss, etc.).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190315
Post by: RikohZX on March 16, 2019, 05:29:27 am
ChrisHighwind:
Are you using a recent version? I had seen a problem with player unconscious state but I thought I resolved it before the first public release, so I'm kind've at a loss. In recent play-testing though, I haven't had any issues when getting knocked unconscious, so I'll need a description of where it's happening (like a specific enemy, boss, etc.).
I've had it happen too involving the early mushroom enemies so far. If my AI partner gets knocked out instead, they just sort of glitch the camera out and start trailing me like a super ghost with their animations glitching.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190315
Post by: GrimVandal on March 16, 2019, 06:41:32 am
Great work, wow I am really impressed.  :thumbsup:


I actually would prefer a PAL, 50 HZ, version over the NTSC 60 HZ one.
I also tried to play around with limiting frames in zsnes and snes9x and bsnes to just so every slightly slow down the game.
Sadly they all just have a slider which halfs or quarters the frames per second. None supports a fine grained adjustment.
The version runs at 60 fps and I would love to play at 50fps or might even 55 fps.



Not that important (but for my girlfriend):
Is there any way to get the german translation working with this?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190315
Post by: Queue on March 16, 2019, 12:51:19 pm
I've had it happen too involving the early mushroom enemies so far. If my AI partner gets knocked out instead, they just sort of glitch the camera out and start trailing me like a super ghost with their animations glitching.
I just did a fresh run up to the first mushboom enemies, and let them knock me out, and couldn't reproduce the issue (and I've tested against plenty of other unconscious circumstances the past couple weeks). Before Feb 26th there was a bug in the running on stairs patch that caused this issue, but I fixed that before the first public release.

So, it could be some mix of features that's triggering this, or using an impossibly outdated version of the patch, or an externally applied patch, or maybe a cheat code being used that's causing this? I'd like to get it figured out, but at the moment I cannot reproduce the bug. I know what it looks like, because it was a problem I saw 3 weeks ago, but I can't get it to happen with the patch as it is now.

GrimVandal:
Can't make any promises regarding framerate options; don't actually know how SNES games control their framerate, but I'll see what I can find out.

By German translation, do you mean the European version of the ROM? Or is there a German translation patch that's applied to the US ROM? Supporting the European ROM is probably not sanely possible (while it's more similar to the US ROM than the Japanese ROM, it's different enough that most patches have to be reimplemented), but if there's a translation patch I MIGHT be able to support that.



Edit: Okay, was finally able to reproduce the unconscious lockup bug. Has something to do with certain mod-added weapon attack animations not stopping correctly when you get knocked down. Will look into it more tomorrow.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190315
Post by: vergil2012 on March 17, 2019, 04:55:53 am
By German translation, do you mean the European version of the ROM? Or is there a German translation patch that's applied to the US ROM? Supporting the European ROM is probably not sanely possible (while it's more similar to the US ROM than the Japanese ROM, it's different enough that most patches have to be reimplemented), but if there's a translation patch I MIGHT be able to support that.

I'm sure he is referring to the official German version of this game. I don't think there is a German translation patch available.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190315
Post by: andrewclunn on March 17, 2019, 08:47:25 am
I am pleased at the faster and easier nature of this.  Introducing my daughter to gaming via quality retro games (largely focused on two player ones).  She's not ready for this game yet, but when she is, this will be the version I go with.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190315
Post by: kethinov on March 19, 2019, 07:03:16 pm
Nice work on this hack.

Count me in the group that thinks eliminating stamina and making SoM more like Zelda is not an improvement. I tried it, found it amusing for a half hour, then realized it trivialized the game's difficulty. Yeah, SoM has always been fairly easy, but this puts you in god mode.

However I think this is a worthy alternative way to play and I fully endorse people trying it out to see if they like it, because I think this will be the kind of hack you either love or hate. And it's okay to love it. ;) Also, I definitely want to try combining turbo mode with Masterflow's hard mode hack to see if they kind of cancel each other out. That might convert me into a believer.

Anyway, I also wanted to say the raft of other smaller hacks in your epic list are also all awesome. I definitely appreciate that you made a half stamina hack for those of us who just can't let go of stamina in SoM. I prefer that mode. It's a good compromise. Increases the pace but without making it manic.

Lastly I wanted to point out a bug: rain of arrows is broken in levels that have rolling clouds, like Thanatos levels.

March 19, 2019, 09:18:24 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Lastly I wanted to point out a bug: rain of arrows is broken in levels that have rolling clouds, like Thanatos levels.

Found another one: the whip post changes make some of the whip posts quite difficult to use. I can't whip across the final whip post in the Grand Palace at all, so I'm effectively softlocked.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190315
Post by: Queue on March 20, 2019, 02:09:46 am
This whip post?
(https://i.imgur.com/mLXMNXt.png)

For now, you can disable [Overcharge_Fix] to work around that. [Overcharge_Fix] hooks weapon change code so I piggybacked on it to clear the whip post flag (hadn't gotten around to separating that, and previously thought it was harmless), but apparently that code fires at unexpected times as well. Had never seen it being as finicky as it as at that spot. You can actually make it past if you try enough times (have to keep stepping off and back on the launch spot), but that's not acceptable.

Thanks for reporting the rain of arrows issue. I barely understand how zhaDe made that work so have had a bear of a time working out the kinks it has, but I'll get it figured out.

Back when I gutted stamina nearly a decade ago, I did combine it with Masterflow's Hard Mode when I played it, but it got really REALLY tedious in the Pure Land. I'll likely get it imported into the patcher eventually regardless. Want to get through the rest of your stuff first though.

My To-Do list is finally getting somewhat short, but I have a couple critical things on it at the moment, particularly the unconscious animation lockup.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190315
Post by: kethinov on March 20, 2019, 11:56:36 pm
This whip post?
(https://i.imgur.com/mLXMNXt.png)

Nah, I got stuck on the one on the right side.

For now, you can disable [Overcharge_Fix] to work around that.

Good to hear. I will try that.

Back when I gutted stamina nearly a decade ago, I did combine it with Masterflow's Hard Mode when I played it, but it got really REALLY tedious in the Pure Land. I'll likely get it imported into the patcher eventually regardless. Want to get through the rest of your stuff first though.

My To-Do list is finally getting somewhat short, but I have a couple critical things on it at the moment, particularly the unconscious animation lockup.

I made it harder for you because I just released a bunch of stuff. ;)

New since the last release of your patcher:

- Earlier Midge Mallet: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4335/
- Later Midge Mallet: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4382/
- Harder Final Boss: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4412/
- Neko and Watts in the Mana Fortress: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4413/
- Gaia's Navel With the Girl Without Doubling Back: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4415/
- Faster or Slower Spell Grinding: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4419/
- Faerie Coconut: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4420/

Updated recently to fix bugs:

- Level 9 Weapons Progression Balance: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4309/
- Early Luna: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4062/
- Restore Unused Fanfares: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4063/

I've also got more hacks coming soon...
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190315
Post by: GrimVandal on March 21, 2019, 12:36:24 pm
The new weapon stuff is great but I really dislike the bow rain of arrows!

Anyway to just disable the rain of arrows?!
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190315
Post by: kethinov on March 22, 2019, 09:57:48 am
The new weapon stuff is great but I really dislike the bow rain of arrows!

Anyway to just disable the rain of arrows?!

Might be worth making a checkbox that changes the bow from rain of arrows / long shot to short shot / long shot.

I made it harder for you because I just released a bunch of stuff. ;)

New since the last release of your patcher:

- Earlier Midge Mallet: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4335/
- Later Midge Mallet: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4382/
- Harder Final Boss: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4412/
- Neko and Watts in the Mana Fortress: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4413/
- Gaia's Navel With the Girl Without Doubling Back: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4415/
- Faster or Slower Spell Grinding: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4419/
- Faerie Coconut: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4420/

Updated recently to fix bugs:

- Level 9 Weapons Progression Balance: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4309/
- Early Luna: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4062/
- Restore Unused Fanfares: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4063/

I've also got more hacks coming soon...

Another new one:

- Equipment Progression Balance: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4422/ (This is a big one I've been working on for like a year! Took dozens and dozens of full playtests to tweak everything until it was Just Right™️)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190315
Post by: darthvaderx on March 22, 2019, 11:18:12 am
I can hardly wait to see the completion of the best and most complete Secret of Mana version ever...
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190322
Post by: Queue on March 22, 2019, 06:23:51 pm
Version 2019-03-22:
https://ufile.io/nnxsq (https://ufile.io/nnxsq)

Changes:
- Removed buggy part of whip post fix.
- Fixed Rain of Arrows behavior on maps with a scrolling layer
- Fixed unconscious animation character lockup
- Fixed charge locking game lockup
- Added Regrs's mixed case naming feature and jazzed it up with an extra row of numbers and symbols
- Disabled the Drum at the Ice Castle Entrance to prevent an exploit
- Turned [Safe_Save_State] into a full-featured single player pause (works with any controller, you just need to be solo)
- Added item save data validation so you can disable [Item_Limit_Increase] without wrecking your inventory
- Small intro cutscene fix for [Scroll_Hack]
- Some internal bugfixes and code cleanup that should be unnoticeable



Kethinov, bring it on. I like your stuff. I, uh, really need to get to importing it all. Your stuff is actually usually easy to import (because you tend to keep things minimal and clean), so I keep telling myself "oh, it'll just take 5 minutes, I'll get to it last" and then it's time to call it a night.

With the release of your big new project, do you want me to bother including your older item rebalance? Not sure if you'd prefer if I sideline it entirely.

GrimVandal, if you're willing to open the ZPS file with a text editor and tweak a value, yes, Rain of Arrows can be disabled.
- Search for "stationary"
- Notice the line marked with "' bow"
- Change 82 to 02
Before:
RAW   82 01 01 01   ' bow
After
RAW   02 01 01 01   ' bow

I'm not currently interested in hooking up piecemeal configuration to the custom attack animations, so manual changes in tbl_attacks[] is currently your option for tweaking it. I'll consider it after I'm sure all the bugs in the custom animation system are dealt with.

darthvaderx, :)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190322
Post by: kethinov on March 22, 2019, 07:30:16 pm
Kethinov, bring it on. I like your stuff. I, uh, really need to get to importing it all. Your stuff is actually usually easy to import (because you tend to keep things minimal and clean), so I keep telling myself "oh, it'll just take 5 minutes, I'll get to it last" and then it's time to call it a night.

With the release of your big new project, do you want me to bother including your older item rebalance? Not sure if you'd prefer if I sideline it entirely.

Throw them both in. I'm sure some will prefer the old one for whatever reason. That's why I released some of the stuff developed for the new one like the Faerie Coconut as standalone hacks. Makes it possible to mix and match things more easily.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190322
Post by: maseter on March 23, 2019, 04:35:11 am
>- Fixed charge locking game lockup

That's for the "you can disable [Overcharge_Fix] to work around that." issue you mentioned earlier?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190322
Post by: Queue on March 23, 2019, 05:37:00 am
>- Fixed charge locking game lockup

That's for the "you can disable [Overcharge_Fix] to work around that." issue you mentioned earlier?
>- Removed buggy part of whip post fix.
Is for the [Overcharge_Fix] issue that was mentioned earlier.

>- Fixed charge locking game lockup
Was an unreported issue I found while trying to figure out the unconscious lockup. To clarify that line, "charge locking" is a sub-feature of [Faster_Charging], where you can hold 'A' to stall weapon charging. Under certain conditions it could cause an infinite loop (but is fixed now).

As of the time of this post, I am not aware of any unfixed critical bugs. Writing this in the hopes it prompts someone to prove me wrong (because I like fixing bugs).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190322
Post by: kethinov on March 23, 2019, 09:41:41 am
Another new one, the "Magical Herb": https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4426/
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190322
Post by: GrimVandal on March 23, 2019, 10:06:05 am
Would it be possible to give the healing water spell (undine) from Primm its own cooldown?

eg.:
healing water has a cooldown of 10 secs
other spells from primm have a cooldown of eg. 5 secs

Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190322
Post by: Vanya on March 23, 2019, 11:27:37 am
Wouldn't that be easier to control by simply adjusting how many HP the spell heals?
For example if the standard cool down is 5 sec and the spell heals 200 HP,
changing the cool down would be 200 HP healed every 10 sec,
but that is the same as reducing the amount healed by 50%,
so 100 HP every 5 sec thus is essentially the same amount over time.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190322
Post by: andrewclunn on March 23, 2019, 06:14:27 pm
Don't forget Mana cost adjustment
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190322
Post by: Uberdubie on March 24, 2019, 05:45:10 am
After a quick try -- LOVING what I am seeing here so far!  This is indeed the dream modifcation for this game, and one of the best romhacking experience I've ever had with the customizable setup of the .zps file you've composed.

My only concern right now is the game's flow feels too fast and a bit too close to easy-mode at the moment.  I've only played for about 30 minutes so far, and right away dungeons are so much faster to breeze through considering you can endlessly run around and keep spamming attack with no downsides.  And with every fast hit doing 100% weapon damage, basic enemies that take multiple hits go down soooo fast now -- 2-5 times faster than they used to.  In addition to that, the new blocking mechanic seems a bit OP as well.  I do really like the inclusion of it and the potential depth it adds to gameplay, but it still seems a bit too easy to cheese the first boss by simply holding down block whenever I'm not attacking, and as long as I'm mostly spamming block with an occasional attack, I'm pretty much invincible.  So in other words, timing doesn't seem as important as it should be, since you can endlessly hold block and as far as I can tell you'll never take any damage.

I'm sure you intend to tweak all this further, and all things considered there's amazing potential here.  To reiterate my 2 issues: to have a way that makes blocking not 100% safe, and have player-based attacks flow a bit better.  It's too easy to breeze through bosses at the moment -- at least at the start (since I admittedly haven't played that long yet).  Perhaps have a way to make the player get an invulnerable stun status after an attack is successfully blocked?  Any way of having the player not 100% safe just by holding the block button would be an improvement.  You could also consider making all non-magic enemy damage higher, to balance the fact that blocking is so low-risk (would make for a great optional side-mod to this regardless imo).  As far as spamming the attack button, I'm not sure how to balance that so that it's less annoying than the vanilla stamina system that awkwardly slows you down a lot, but also not so fast and effortless that it feels way too easy.  There just needs to be more of a feeling of risk/reward between blocking and attacking.

Sorry if this was a bit of a ramble -- I wanted to get some time in to play this incredible hack/compilation and still give some feedback for you.  Can't what to see where this goes from here -- truly fantastic work.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190322
Post by: maseter on March 25, 2019, 08:43:40 am
Idea! Checksum fix for your ZPS patcher? Here is one with source:
https://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=13675#p161682 (https://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=13675#p161682)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190326
Post by: Queue on March 26, 2019, 05:47:20 pm
Version 2019-03-26:
https://ufile.io/nwx29 (https://ufile.io/nwx29)

Changes:
- Added checksum adjustment code to the Helper Script for the case where the ROM is resized down to 3 MB
- The SFROM file generated by the Helper Script should be backwards compatible with old emulators that accept headered SNES ROM files (though the extension may need to be changed to make selecting the file easier); this feature is really just for testing and I haven't double checked that I didn't break compatibility with SNESCE / Canoe
- Split the [Balance] section into three sections: [Magic], [Items] and [Balance]
- Changed [Hittable_Vampires] to be Off by default
- Added Kethinov's [Earlier_Midge_Mallet], [Later_Midge_Mallet], [Faerie_Coconut] and its graphic replacement
- Added the ability to "unforge" level 9 weapons back to 1 (the feature is called [Circular_Forging]), after which you can forge them back up; just burns through some money
- Made disabling auto-casing when using [Mixed_Case_Naming] toggle-able; mostly useful for continuing saves where your characters already have dumpy all-caps names
- Fixed an obscure vanilla crash that occurs if you walk multiple characters into an auto-talk NPC simultaneously
- Slight adjustment to boomerang diagonal down left/right quick throw so you won't miss the catch
- A good amount of code cleanup
- Almost finished untangling dependencies; this is mostly an internal issue but wanted to document it



GrimVandal, possible, but not trivial; as-is it can be given its own longer cooldown that would also block out other spells. Like others pointed out though, a cooldown isn't the only option for controlling its use. The game intended for mana cost to be the limiter for spell spam, but as can be seen in vanilla, it's inadequate on its own; I scaled back zhaDe's lockout timer duration because I wanted to prevent stacking, but not have recast time be what drives over-all spell use. Ultimately, spell power per cast is probably the strongest control lever for balancing them with how spells work in this game. Aaand is not high on my list of things to mess with and Timbo's big project will likely get spell balance right for those concerned with such things.

Uberdubie, my principal stance is this: I don't really care if the game winds up easier; it's an easy game to begin with, but tedious; my goal was to remove the tedium. Between my changes, and all of other authors' work that I have enabled by default, removing tedium was the goal, with adding fun as a secondary (and fixing bugs because those ruin fun, even the ones that provide short-term fun but long term anti-fun); difficulty is an afterthought.

My view on blocking is that yes, it's way too good, but you also cannot do anything else while blocking, so I'm not in a hurry to overhaul it yet; I also don't personally like timing-based blocking in games, I prefer decision-based blocking (do I want to be in turtle mode or do I want to be in offense mode?). Currently, only spells get past blocking. That said, I'm not averse to a successful block leading to some sort of cooldown, I just don't like the initial block needing split-second timing; I want to be able to just hold up a shield all day waiting for that attack to hit me.

For attacks, it's mostly just a matter of beefing up enemy HP to compensate (changing attack or defense is far more complicated to balance since this game uses a threshold damage system rather than percentage resistance); this keeps the combat fun, but lets enemies live long enough to fight back. Enemies are far more aggressive in Turbo, but it's also far easier to pin them down (though I consider this a plus), but you're generally just pinning one down at a time (there can be 3 enemies at a time, and the game tends to try and keep all 3 slots in use until you've totally cleared an area). I'll likely get Masterflow's Hard Mode imported eventually, which definitely leans in the bullet-sponge direction for enemies. I myself won't be messing with enemy stats (ignoring a minor tweak I made to the Mantis Ant tutorial fight if you have [Manual_Block] and/or [Turbo_Mode] enabled).

maseter, the patcher itself already calculates a new internal ROM checksum, but if you pick a combination of features that results in the 4th MB of ROM being unused, AND you let the Helper Script resize the ROM down to 3 MB, then the checksum won't be accurate (due to the brain-dead way the SNES ROM checksum works for non-power-of-2 ROM sizes). I added code to the Helper Script to adjust the internal checksum in the case that it resizes it down to 3 MB.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190326
Post by: maseter on March 26, 2019, 06:27:02 pm
>the patcher itself already calculates a new internal ROM checksum
I just used this version and still got a bad checksum on the resulting 4MB rom.

Another one for the pot?
Gaia's Navel With the Girl Without Doubling Back
https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4415/ (https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4415/)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190326
Post by: Queue on March 26, 2019, 07:10:44 pm
Hm, I wonder what the best way to figure out the checksum issue is. When I've checked prior to this, I've always seen the 4 MB (and 2 MB) checksums come out correctly, but I certainly don't double check that every time.

What is reporting that the checksums are wrong? I assume it's whichever emulator you're using (version number etc. is useful).

What is your patching process like? Are you applying any IPS's after Turbo? Are you using the IPS patching functionality inside the ZPS Patcher itself?

You don't need to point out Kethinov's patches, I'll get them all eventually. I'm trying to pace myself importing them so I don't burn out (also so I can try each specifically as I go).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190326
Post by: maseter on March 26, 2019, 08:34:57 pm
Sorry it was my mistake, Gaia's Navel screwed the checksum, the checksum is OK when using just ZPS_Patcher.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190322
Post by: GrimVandal on March 27, 2019, 08:35:43 am
Wouldn't that be easier to control by simply adjusting how many HP the spell heals?
For example if the standard cool down is 5 sec and the spell heals 200 HP,
changing the cool down would be 200 HP healed every 10 sec,
but that is the same as reducing the amount healed by 50%,
so 100 HP every 5 sec thus is essentially the same amount over time.

With a different/separate cooldown for healing water primm could heal every 10 seconds while she could cast other spells in between.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190326
Post by: kethinov on March 28, 2019, 10:27:28 am
Kethinov's patches, I'll get them all eventually. I'm trying to pace myself importing them so I don't burn out (also so I can try each specifically as I go).

Just released another new one. Faster Weapon Grinding: http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4430/
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190328
Post by: Queue on March 28, 2019, 06:54:10 pm
Version 2019-03-28:
https://ufile.io/0nprd (https://ufile.io/0nprd)

Changes:
- Updated Timbo's Relocalized to 1.7
- Added Kethinov's Faster Weapon Grinding
- A few more code comments here and there
- Slight adjustment to a cutscene bugfix related to [CPUs_Dont_Block_Screen] and [Walk_To_Edges_Of_Screen] (which I haven't tested, so here's hoping)



maseter, no sweat, glad it's figured out.

kethinov, I didn't put this one off until later. Wasn't totally sure how I wanted to let the user pick between the 4 optional speeds so going with an editable value in the advanced config menu for now.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190328
Post by: Sarah Shinespark on March 30, 2019, 10:43:56 pm
Is zhaDe's ZPS patcher available as a utility? It sounds super useful but a quick search failed to find it. It's only bundled with this patch?  :(
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190328
Post by: Queue on April 01, 2019, 07:08:56 pm
The only other place I know of is here:
https://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php?topic=20093.msg361754#msg361754 (https://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php?topic=20093.msg361754#msg361754)

(The "v0.18" on the first line is a link.)

I used ILMerge...

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=17630
https://github.com/dotnet/ILMerge

...to combine SnesPatcher.exe and lib_RomHacking.dll and slightly renamed the result. The next Turbo release will include a slightly modified patcher that fixes a race condition and allows checkboxes to start unchecked, but I don't have the source code to the patcher so don't intend to go too crazy modifying it. Documentation will include the changes I made to it.

Also, I'll need to double-check, but I'm pretty sure the ZPS patcher only really knows how to deal with HiROM SNES ROMs. It is a pretty awesome patch format though. Normally I wouldn't touch something that's not a de facto standard (IPS in this circumstance), but ZPS made me violate my own rules.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190328
Post by: kethinov on April 02, 2019, 11:27:52 am
kethinov, I didn't put this one off until later. Wasn't totally sure how I wanted to let the user pick between the 4 optional speeds so going with an editable value in the advanced config menu for now.

Another new one that will require you to make some decisions about how to present the options: "Easier or Harder Monsters." https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4435/

This one offers ten different options for adjusting monster/boss difficulty which depending on the combination of hacks you apply can either increase or decrease the amount of level grinding that is necessary to finish the game.

It is good to pair with "Equipment Progression Balance" (https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4422/) so as to make an easy mode, hard mode, or very hard mode out of it.

Also I had to update "Equipment Progression Balance" because I accidentally bundled the hex changes from the "Harder Final Boss" hack that turns the final bosses into superbosses with it. I stripped that accidental inclusion in 1.2.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190328
Post by: Gi Nattak on April 02, 2019, 12:27:10 pm
Another new one that will require you to make some decisions about how to present the options: "Easier or Harder Monsters." https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4435/

This one offers ten different options for adjusting monster/boss difficulty which depending on the combination of hacks you apply can either increase or decrease the amount of level grinding that is necessary to finish the game.

Definitely nice patches to have for this mod! I'm wondering though why the monster stats besides HP and EXP/GP drops weren't altered as well? More or less HP would indeed make the battles last longer/shorter, but arguably not easier/harder in terms of difficulty... well, except of course in terms of battle length and item/spell usage, which in SoM's case does factor in greatly to it's 'difficulty'. I'd imagine though it was just that much more work, tweaking all the monster stats, or maybe just not in the scope of what you desired to achieve with this particular mod in mind?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190328
Post by: kethinov on April 02, 2019, 02:20:35 pm
Cool patch(es), but I'm wondering how come the monster stats besides HP and EXP/GP drops weren't touched?

When I examined the tables, it occurred to me that the other stats are all rabbit holes. I suppose it's technically possible to make subtler adjustments on a per monster basis to balance the relative difficulty of—say—Terminator against Master Ninja by adjusting str, int, physical defense, or whatever, but my view is the original game's figures are all basically fine. You get the best bang for your buck making across the board percentage adjustments to HP (to lengthen fights) and separate adjustments to XP/GP (to reduce or increase grinding).

I paired XP/GP because if they were separated, you could end up overleveled but unable to afford equipment or rich but underleveled. This reduces the question of difficulty merely to how long do you want the fights to be (largely a HP question) and how much grinding do you want there to be in order to be high enough in level to be evenly matched against the current set of monsters plus rich enough to afford the current equipment (largely a XP+GP question).

Or putting it in a simpler way, the big takeaways are:

1. If you want longer fights, amp up HP.
2. If you want harder fights, cut XP/GP (because this will make future enemies harder and harder if you don't do some grinding first).
3. If you want longer and harder fights, do both.
4. If you want easier fights, amp up XP/GP.
5. Adjusting the other stats has unclear/inconsistent effects or would need to be reimagined one monster at a time, extremely painstakingly. And it's not clear it's even necessary. (I did make an exception to this amping up many other stats for my "Harder Final Boss" hack, but the use case for that was clearer: I wanted to make the final two boss fights superbosses, so adjusting the other stats made sense there.)

Bear in mind, my HP / XP+GP hacks keep it simple enough that if someone else wanted to adjust the other stats independently for some other reason, they could, and that could be combined with this.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190328
Post by: GrimVandal on April 04, 2019, 06:29:06 am
Yes great thought process and once again awesome patches, thank you so much for this.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190407
Post by: Queue on April 07, 2019, 06:58:40 am
Version 2019-04-07:
https://ufile.io/bop1y (https://ufile.io/bop1y)

Patcher Changes:
- Checkbox state based on feature variables; this means features can start in the Off state and the !!_Inverted workaround is no longer necessary
- Checkboxes can be inactive (useful for section separators)
- Fixed race condition when reapplying patch without restarting patcher
- Changed window title to add a + symbol
- Relaxed version checking so a ZPS file can contain a screwy version value to intentionally block compatibility with the older patcher

Changes:
- No more !!_Inverted patcher options, yay; some stuff just starts unchecked
- Added [Balance] feature to disable item damage canceling (On by default)
- Added Kethinov's Neko and Watts in the Mana Fortress
- Added Doom's Wall's desperation attack name fix (Cave -> Cave In; the space was an invalid character)
- Added a fix for getting too many weapon orbs from events causing a lockup
- Added a fix for the script event that causes your party to gather on to the leader where it can get stuck in an infinite loop if party members are at the far left edge of the screen
- Finished converting any lowercase assembly mnemonics to uppercase
- Added preliminary New Game Plus feature, lots of little issues at the moment, but should be functional enough to test



Kethinov, you missed event 659 in the VWF part of your "Neko and Watts in the Mana Fortress" patch. It's at offset 0x22E1CF.



For anyone curious about the New Game Plus feature, after the end credits, you'll get... let's call it an "immersive" prompt, where you can choose to restart the game or see the "The End" scene. There are probably lots of things you can do to break stuff terribly on your second playthrough, so if anyone gives it a shot, I'd like to hear about the trouble you get into.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190407
Post by: kethinov on April 07, 2019, 04:03:13 pm
haha, I literally just authored a patch to disable item canceling last night and was about to submit to RHDN. Damn it!  :P

April 08, 2019, 01:20:13 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
I found a bug: goblin capture scene has graphics issues on the north trees with Scroll Hack enabled.

Also I like your dialog edits that explain how to use block if you die to the Mantis Ant. Nice touch.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190407
Post by: XModxGodX on April 10, 2019, 07:48:46 pm
Found a bug related to the pause screen. When you change the controls and press start for more than a nanosecond to confirm the game will softlock also changing the menus to anything other than the default button makes them stop working altogether. (playing it on the SNES Classic)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190407
Post by: Queue on April 11, 2019, 02:12:33 pm
Was able to reproduce those issues; thank you for reporting them. I'm not sure why I hadn't tested key config changes prior to this... I know I had gone to that screen but I guess I never committed any changes.

Some features (e.g. quick weapon swap) override default button behavior (and block vanilla behavior of that button) and apparently modified behavior is reading raw controller input rather than input that's been rearranged based on customized button layout; hopefully it won't be too hard to reconfigure how that works.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190407
Post by: kethinov on April 11, 2019, 02:16:31 pm
I found some more issues as well.

- Going right to cannon travel guy north of Gaia's Navel has some graphical glitches with Scroll Hack.
- Graphics glitch walking to the north from the Spring Beak boss fight map towards Wind Palace.
- Several scenarios in which rain of arrows always misses; it's impossible to land a hit with it at times.

Also I published a new hack: Tricked Out from the Start http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4446/ - it's kind of a kitschy hack, so if you include it, definitely don't turn it on by default.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190407
Post by: Queue on April 11, 2019, 02:37:35 pm
Noted down the maps for Scroll Hack issues. Regarding when you'd previously mentioned the goblin village, I think that one's going to require some pretty heavy retooling to make it not suck, both for Scroll Hack and for vanilla tricks you can pull to wander around it.

Can you elaborate on when rain of arrows is failing? My take on your description is that it looks right, it just fails to collide with an enemy. Even just naming a place where this occurs will likely be enough for me to work with. I should have spent more time with the bow but my true loves are the boomerang and javelin, so guess I didn't check it in enough places.

Also, no real reason for you to not post your item canceling patch. If you NOP'd the same 9 bytes as me (incoming damage and attacker ID get cleared by item code, I just axed those) then it's whatever, and if you did something more comprehensive, I'll likely replace what I did with yours.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190407
Post by: pleasejust on April 11, 2019, 10:13:55 pm
Dude, are you kidding me? This is the definitive SoM hack, the one we've all been waiting for. Congrats.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190407
Post by: GrimVandal on April 12, 2019, 03:01:35 pm
I really think rain of arrows is not only cheesey but really too much.

All of the  weapon mechanic changes are great besides of this. (can rain of arrows already be disabled?!)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190412
Post by: Queue on April 12, 2019, 05:18:27 pm
Version 2019-04-12:
https://ufile.io/nx63k (https://ufile.io/nx63k)

Changes:
- Fixed PAUSE unintentionally hanging the game if the screen is dim (like when leaving the controller config menu)
- Fixed customized button config not affecting new button functionality (quick weapon swap, etc.)
- Added Kethinov's Magical Herb patch
- Added Balance\Luna_And_Dryad_Weaknesses (based on notes made by, I think, Regrs)
- Fixed Hit Chance code so that the Hit Up buff and Hit Down debuff work properly
- Added Technical\Disable_Soft_Reset; fixing customized button code re-enabled the ability to soft reset, which is... mostly used to abuse bugs, so it's now disabled by default
- Visual fixup for the T-junction north of Gaia's Navel for Scroll Hack
- Added preliminary enemy stat boost for New Game Plus loops



Kethinov, I compacted the code your Magical Herb uses and relocated it a tiny bit for compatibility safety; it's still in the same chunk of junk data, but shoved to the end since some text edit hacks write over the beginning (and middle) of that junk data (which makes sense, since it's text junk data that comes after used text data). The compacted code is only 0x21 bytes because I reuse the original Medical Herb code rather than duplicating it.

GrimVandal, a couple pages back I posted instructions on how you can disable the Rain of Arrows. The abbreviated version:
- Open the ZPS file with a text editor
- Search for 82 01 01 01
- Change to 02 01 01 01
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190412
Post by: pleasejust on April 12, 2019, 11:01:07 pm
Awesome, thanks.

For faster weapon grinding, how much faster is it? The original author provided various speeds. Can you include them in the next version?

Also, is there any way you could implement a better Turbo logo? How about this?
https://imgur.com/a/EcZ3m4I
You'll have to make it smaller and change it's color palette I guess?

Another thing, I didn't really like how I got 1000 gold in the elder's basement in the beginning. I have no issues with the default economy. Please allow that to be customizable.

Lastly, is it possible to have the enemies in turbo mode but characters have endurance enabled?

EDIT: one final thing... could you possibly make it so that you can play vanilla SoM but with just the bugfixes and quality of life improvements like quick switching of weapons and magic without going to the menu, scroll hack, etc? I've actually never passed the game before, I was turned off by the combat when I was younger, but I at least want to play it closer to vanilla first.

I forgot to mention, when playing through, it seemed like I was leveling up way too fast. Allowing that to be customizable would be great. In fact, anything that's has a separate ips file should be customizable, no?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190412
Post by: darthvaderx on April 13, 2019, 12:51:33 am
And about 'Equipment Progression Balance'? In your hack is listed version 1.1 while it has already been released version 1.2 ('fixed bug in which the "Harder Final Boss" hack was accidentally bundled with this').
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190407
Post by: kethinov on April 13, 2019, 03:04:00 pm
Can you elaborate on when rain of arrows is failing? My take on your description is that it looks right, it just fails to collide with an enemy. Even just naming a place where this occurs will likely be enough for me to work with. I should have spent more time with the bow but my true loves are the boomerang and javelin, so guess I didn't check it in enough places.

Rain of arrows bug visual demo: https://youtu.be/RLEvPjV7UKM

Can provide save file if needed.

Also, no real reason for you to not post your item canceling patch. If you NOP'd the same 9 bytes as me (incoming damage and attacker ID get cleared by item code, I just axed those) then it's whatever, and if you did something more comprehensive, I'll likely replace what I did with yours.

I just NOP'd the same 9 bytes you did. You just beat me to releasing the hack by a day. I was in the middle of playtesting it when I saw your post haha.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190407
Post by: Queue on April 15, 2019, 12:57:32 am
Kethinov, the video was enough. I think I finally maybe probably have the dang rain of arrows fixed for the next release. I tested it in a fairly wide range of locations; it positions correctly and actually hits enemies in all that I tried. Yeesh. The original problem was rain of arrows was ignoring some vanilla projectile creation code and zeroing out a flag that essentially specifies which layer the projectile is on, then my previous fixes were second-guessing some of it and sometimes setting the flag when it shouldn't be. Now I'm just trusting vanilla code to set the flag correctly (or to describe it more accurately, preserving the flag, whatever it's set to). Behavior should just match a vanilla arrow on a given map now.



darthvaderx, you're mixing up "Equipment Progression Balance" and "Level 9 Weapons Progression Balance" (both by Kethinov). Turbo only currently includes the latter. I'll get the other eventually.



Quote from: pleasejust
For faster weapon grinding, how much faster is it? The original author provided various speeds. Can you include them in the next version?
By default that feature is equivalent to "A Bit Faster" but read the feature description in the patcher; it's already configurable in the 'Advanced Options' menu (accessed via the 'Advanced...' button in the patcher).

Quote from: pleasejust
Also, is there any way you could implement a better Turbo logo? How about this?
https://imgur.com/a/EcZ3m4I
You'll have to make it smaller and change it's color palette I guess?
Not happening. Editing the logo is very complicated and what you see is already pushing the envelope on what is possible. There are basically only two colors free in the palette that could be changed, there are too few unused tiles in the logo, placement of the edit is very constrained, probably other factors that I can't name off the top of my head. What's there was already days of effort; I wish it was just an image edit in TLP, but it was not. I also like how it turned out; I made the logo for myself (for fun as an artistic outlet when I needed a break from other aspects of the project) so don't really care if no one else likes what it looks like. Plus, it's super unimportant: you don't see it unless you let the title screen sit and loop; don't need to burn any more time on it than I already have.

Quote from: pleasejust
Another thing, I didn't really like how I got 1000 gold in the elder's basement in the beginning. I have no issues with the default economy. Please allow that to be customizable.
That's part of "Level 9 Weapons Progression Balance" but I can probably throw in a checkbox to control it separately.

Quote from: pleasejust
Lastly, is it possible to have the enemies in turbo mode but characters have endurance enabled?
The enemies and players use the same code to set their stamina after an attack, so it's pretty much both or neither. It wouldn't be impossible to add code to handle each case separately, but not high on my list of priorities; lots of factors that make it not worth doing, very little to gain if done.

Quote from: pleasejust
could you possibly make it so that you can play vanilla SoM but with just the bugfixes and quality of life improvements like quick switching of weapons and magic without going to the menu, scroll hack, etc? I've actually never passed the game before, I was turned off by the combat when I was younger, but I at least want to play it closer to vanilla first.
Uhm, I used a patcher system with all those checkboxes so you could do this? Just uncheck any features that aren't bugfixes or quality of life improvements. The quick, overly literal route would be to uncheck all sections that aren't [Quality_of_Life] or [Bug_Fixes], though what you probably want would be to specifically uncheck [Combat], [Magic], [Items] and [Balance].

Quote from: pleasejust
I forgot to mention, when playing through, it seemed like I was leveling up way too fast. Allowing that to be customizable would be great.
Nothing in Turbo changes the experience rate. I may add something eventually, but what you're seeing is normal.

Quote from: pleasejust
In fact, anything that's has a separate ips file should be customizable, no?
If you want to put in the work to make every little thing adjustable, go nuts. I've been doing what interests me and is practical within the limitations of the ZPS Patcher. The largest service I've been providing is compatibility between other peoples' patches. If it's in the ZPS file I've prepared, and you turn on any given combination of checkboxes, you should feel confident that I already dealt with any compatibility issues.

Quote from: pleasejust
Thanks!
Hope I didn't sound too crabby. Was just trying to be straightforward.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190407
Post by: kethinov on April 16, 2019, 12:59:09 pm
Published another new hack: No Music https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4458/

It removes all music from the game, but leaves (most of) the sound effects in place. This allows you to play audio from another source like blasting your stereo without having to mute the game’s sound effects along with its music. Good for playing living room co-op with your friends if you enjoy the hack and slash sounds but you want to put on some different music. Known issue: A small number of sound effects are disabled too because they either require interaction with the game’s music to function correctly (e.g. earthquake and waterfall) or they are misclassified in-game as music (e.g. cannon travel firing).

Quote from: pleasejust

    Another thing, I didn't really like how I got 1000 gold in the elder's basement in the beginning. I have no issues with the default economy. Please allow that to be customizable.

That's part of "Level 9 Weapons Progression Balance" but I can probably throw in a checkbox to control it separately.

It's worth noting that the reason this is part of Level 9 Weapons Progression Balance is that adding 10 new weapon orb acquisition events so much earlier in the game places a strain on your finances, even with all the upgrade prices halved. I don't recommend taking this out. You'll end up having to do a lot of grinding to keep up with the upgrades in the first 20% or so of the game if you do.

Quote from: pleasejust

    I forgot to mention, when playing through, it seemed like I was leveling up way too fast. Allowing that to be customizable would be great.

Nothing in Turbo changes the experience rate. I may add something eventually, but what you're seeing is normal.

I made a hack that offers some options regarding that which hasn't yet been integrated into the Turbo patcher, but you can apply it manually after applying the Turbo patches if you like: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4435/
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190416
Post by: Queue on April 16, 2019, 07:00:04 pm
Version 2019-04-16:
https://ufile.io/q4gfmifb (https://ufile.io/q4gfmifb)

Changes:
- Completely fixed Rain of Arrows (probably)
- Updated Kethinov's Restore Unused Fanfares patch to v1.1 (finally)
- Added Kethinov's No Music patch (Off by default)
- Added Kethinov's Faster or Slower Spell Grinding patch (configurable via Advanced Options)
- Added a [_No_Free_Lunch] sub-option to [Weapons_Progression_Balance]
- Added a Silence proc to Thunder Saber
- Added a Balloon proc to Light Saber
- Minor code optimizations (mainly stripping unnecessary CMP #00's)
- Fixed Scroll Hack issue during ending credits Lofty Mountains scene
- Aesthetic tweak to progress animation during New Game Plus flag clearing process
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190416
Post by: kethinov on April 17, 2019, 12:15:32 am
Some questions:

1. Is "Hit Chance Fix" new as well? I didn't see that one in previous versions.
2. Would it be possible to make MP shown below status area show [CURRENT_MP]/[MAX_MP] similar to HP?
3. What do I have to edit in the ZPS file to prevent the patcher from altering the checksum at all? Is it the /$C0FFDE romCheckSum line?
4. Are you sure Super Change Form is working? I just unchecked everything in the patcher except for Super Change Form and it seems to generate a ROM with no changes.

And I found a bug. It snows swords in the ending:

(http://kethinov.com/images/linked/som/swordsnow.png)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190407
Post by: darthvaderx on April 17, 2019, 07:30:17 pm
[`
darthvaderx, you're mixing up "Equipment Progression Balance" and "Level 9 Weapons Progression Balance" (both by Kethinov). Turbo only currently includes the latter. I'll get the other eventually.

Okay, I wanted to say 'Level 9 Weapons Progression Balance', but the SoM Turbo version is still 1.1 while the current is 1.3.

And what does the 'Animate Palette' effect mean? I did not notice any difference on the title screen.

Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190416
Post by: kethinov on April 17, 2019, 07:42:36 pm
The title screen animate palette thing adds sparkling water to the background.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190421
Post by: Queue on April 21, 2019, 03:50:55 pm
Version 2019-04-21:
https://ufile.io/6huh34we (https://ufile.io/6huh34we)

Changes:
- Rewrote ACT_Defaults; it was a miracle it worked since it lacked a return and was just falling through to whatever code happened to be next.
- Lots of map cleanup in the field between Potos, Pandora and the Water Shrine. This took days, and you probably won't even be able to spot all the messed up tiles that were fixed.
- Added ability to revisit the goblin village, which is super janky at the moment. To get back in, walk left against the trees near where you were captured.
- A little map cleanup on the goblin village but it still needs a lot of work.



darthvaderx, for the end user, there is no meaningful difference between "Level 9 Weapons Progression Balance" versions 1.1, 1.2 and 1.3. Internally, I have the 1.2 changes added but then commented out because they weren't relevant (though with the release of "Equipment Progression Balance" at least now I know what the purpose of the changes were). I'll get the details worked out and the version number bumped eventually, it's just low priority. Conversely, I do want to incorporate the updated Early Luna patch, but doing so takes time and I only have so much.

Kethinov
- The hit chance stuff was added two versions ago, that's why it wasn't mentioned in the last version.
- I think it would take a lot of rewriting to change the mana display to include the maximum (and to include a divider, unless the MP label was cannibalized). Not saying it won't happen, but plenty of other things I'm interested in messing with first.
- The patcher recalculating the checksum is just a task it does after applying everything and there's no way to disable that functionality. In the ZPS file, I marked up patches that change it explicitly for the sake of documentation, but it gets overwritten by the patcher afterwards regardless of any entries in the ZPS file that change it during the patching process. You'd need to save the checksum you want and edit it into the ROM after the patcher is finished if you want it to be a specific value.
- Good catch on Super Change Form, also crud, I didn't read this until after I'd uploaded 190421. Find "FILE <WisdomStat>" and add "FILE <SuperChangeForm>" on the line below it.
- I've seen the sword snow before, but it doesn't happen 100% of the time so I haven't been able to reproduce it when I've been in the right circumstance to get it figured out. =/

Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190421
Post by: lexluthermiester on April 22, 2019, 03:34:51 am
Version 2019-04-21:
https://ufile.io/6huh34we (https://ufile.io/6huh34we)
:thumbsup:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190423
Post by: Queue on April 23, 2019, 10:41:50 pm
Version 2019-04-23:
https://ufile.io/f5a4xlpq (https://ufile.io/f5a4xlpq)

Changes:
- Fixed [Super_Change_Form] bugfix; it wasn't actually being applied prior to this version
- [Revisit_Goblin_Village] promoted out of Experimental status; spent way too much time cleaning up the goblin village map, but now it's seamless and bugless; you can leave via the far upper left or right by walking into the trees (like when the girl rescues you)
- Tidy map treatment for the map just south of the water palace
- Tidy map treatment for turtle shell isle
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190423
Post by: teahouser on April 24, 2019, 03:17:15 am
Hey Queue, having a great time playing your turbo beta. One question, I play on SNES Classic and was wondering if you are going to have a patch to fix the high gamma in the menus? When any non vanilla version of SoM is used on the SNES classic it requires a separate patch solely to address the high gamma. Sluffy made a few of these patches for the PAL releases of SoM, is there anyway you could make or modify one of his patches to lower the menu gamma back to normal? It would make it a lot easier on the eyes.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190423
Post by: Queue on April 24, 2019, 03:42:39 am
Are you enabling [VC_without_PCM] in the [Technical] section (near the very bottom of the list of feature checkboxes)? That should be applying Canoe-specific fixups to the ROM, and if the helper script is working as intended, also directly preparing an SFROM file.

I haven't tested on a SNES Classic in a while, so I may have broken things, but if that still works, I should probably label it more clearly.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190423
Post by: teahouser on April 25, 2019, 02:06:43 am
Actually the VC patch doesn't affect the gamma at all, it's an issue with Canoe and games with HD text enabled (like SoM and SD3). They usually end up with jacked up gamma brightness when played on Canoe that need to be patched back down to normal levels.
Are you enabling [VC_without_PCM] in the [Technical] section (near the very bottom of the list of feature checkboxes)? That should be applying Canoe-specific fixups to the ROM, and if the helper script is working as intended, also directly preparing an SFROM file.

I haven't tested on a SNES Classic in a while, so I may have broken things, but if that still works, I should probably label it more clearly.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190426
Post by: Queue on April 26, 2019, 08:13:39 pm
Version 2019-04-26:
https://ufile.io/5wh0ma7p (https://ufile.io/5wh0ma7p)

Changes:
- Covered up a stray black pixel in the goblin village
- Tweak to turtle shell isle map cleanup; result is the same, but byte reorganizing is more sane if it needs adjusting in the future
- A couple FastROM adjustments
- A feature no one asked for, and probably only Timbo and maybe Kethinov will care about, and that I sorta regret doing because it was multiple hours of crazy tedium, even when using macros to automate the worst of it:
- 3bpp graphics decoding and re-encoding support
- - menu icons (items, spells, etc.)
- - damage numerals
- - weapons and projectiles
- - spells (including the mana spirit summons)

Example images:
Vanilla
(https://i.imgur.com/pHFLesS.png)

Decoded
(https://i.imgur.com/GOw3Rs9.png)

This lets you use a standard SNES sprite editor to make changes. The graphics are 3 bits per pixel, so you just need an editor that supports that. Working on the palettes is another matter, but generally much less of an issue than dealing with the screwy byte order SoM was using on these art assets.



teahouser, I'll get a chance to mess with an SNES Classic again eventually to double-check stuff, but my buddy and I had it working the same as the copy of SoM that came on the SNES Classic. We had the Virtual Console without PCM patch applied, and the (I forget the exact terms) ID number set to 10B0, and ID name set to WUP-JBXE. Without the VC patch, the high res screens didn't look right (letters were only rendering every other pixel, I assume because it wasn't actually rendering at a higher resolution), so it was necessary.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190426
Post by: darthvaderx on April 26, 2019, 10:14:00 pm
Do you accept a suggestion? How about generating a log as readme.txt of all the modifications made in the rom?
And also the option to save and export a configuration log so you would not have to do everything manually every time a new update comes up, just set the new options added, what do you think?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190426
Post by: Timbo on April 27, 2019, 10:52:22 am
I definitely like the sprite rearrangement. Is Kethinov's 9th level weapons hack working with Relocalized yet?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190426
Post by: maseter on April 27, 2019, 11:45:31 am
There's a slight problem with the header:
(https://i.imgur.com/Zfu0vRm.png)

The original mana rom has a ! instead of the 1 at that address, any idea what it sets?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190426
Post by: Queue on April 27, 2019, 04:31:24 pm
darthvaderx, it's a good suggestion, and something I've thought about, but not easy to do. I don't have the source code for the patcher, so making changes to it is pretty difficult and painful.

Timbo, everything available within Turbo's ZPS is compatibilized with anything else in the ZPS (unless I goofed up); as I add stuff I do any of the fixups necessary for stuff it conflicts with so... yes, Level 9 Weapons Progression Balance works with Relocalized.

That's usually why it takes more than 30 seconds to adds Kethinov's newer stuff because he often changes event scripts which are what need fixups for FuSoYa's VWF Edition and Relocalized. While he supports VWF Edition, it takes longer to integrate because they need conditionals wrapped around the VWF Edition specific bits (so they aren't included if Relocalized is enabled).

It's also a good idea to have the Orb_Overflow_Event bugfix if using Level 9 Weapons Progression Balance because I'm pretty sure there's a sequence of events in otherwise vanilla SoM that can lock up without it; something like visit the mana tree before beating Tasnica? I think that's possible. Maybe. At the very least it has no negative side effects even if it's unnecessary. I hit the bug somehow which is why I patched it, but no longer recall the circumstances and they could have been outside the range of normal gameplay.

maseter, that's not actually a problem. The ROM's internal name is 21 bytes long (if the name is shorter, you pad the unused bytes with ascii spaces). The "o" in Turbo is the last byte for the ROM's name. The emulator is reading in the internal name incorrectly and shouldn't be including the byte after the 21st name byte, regardless of what it is. That "1" (or "!") is data and just happens to be a valid ascii character. The 22nd byte in the ROM header dictates the ROM's type (LoROM, HiROM, SlowROM, FastROM, SA-1, Ex). 0x21 (ascii !) is vanilla SoM and indicates HiROM, 0x31 (ascii 1) is HiROM + FastROM. Blame your emulator for being braindead and attaching the byte that follows the ROM name to its name.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190426
Post by: kethinov on April 27, 2019, 06:59:10 pm
- [Revisit_Goblin_Village] promoted out of Experimental status; spent way too much time cleaning up the goblin village map, but now it's seamless and bugless; you can leave via the far upper left or right by walking into the trees (like when the girl rescues you)

I adore this! It has so much potential. I kind of want to explore expanding on this to make the huts enterable and add some goblin NPCs or something now. Such a charming hack.

Timbo, everything available within Turbo's ZPS is compatibilized with anything else in the ZPS (unless I goofed up); as I add stuff I do any of the fixups necessary for stuff it conflicts with so... yes, Level 9 Weapons Progression Balance works with Relocalized.

That's usually why it takes more than 30 seconds to adds Kethinov's newer stuff because he often changes event scripts which are what need fixups for FuSoYa's VWF Edition and Relocalized. While he supports VWF Edition, it takes longer to integrate because they need conditionals wrapped around the VWF Edition specific bits (so they aren't included if Relocalized is enabled).

Ping me sometime with the specific fixes that are needed for Relocalized so I can update the standalone patches too. It'll help prevent me getting so many emails. ;)

It's also a good idea to have the Orb_Overflow_Event bugfix if using Level 9 Weapons Progression Balance because I'm pretty sure there's a sequence of events in otherwise vanilla SoM that can lock up without it; something like visit the mana tree before beating Tasnica? I think that's possible. Maybe.

You can't visit the Mana Tree before beating Tasnica.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190426
Post by: Queue on April 27, 2019, 08:13:47 pm
The way I altered the triggered event list and tiles in the Goblin Village will need a more comprehensive adjustment to reactivate the doors and give you control over what they do, but it's definitely possible (and not especially tough, though the left hut is less obvious due to map data compression). To add NPCs (or chests, etc) to the village itself may be a little involved, but if they're kept to new room interiors, probably not too bad.

I tried to keep the data in the ZPS file understandable, so I'll give a little walkthrough (using your No Music hack) of how I'd suggest finding the relevant data you'd want:

Open "SoM Turbo.######.zps" with your favorite text editor. It's a pretty big file now, so Notepad chugs on it a little, but still usable if you're patient.

Search for "by Kethinov" (I marked each imported patch with the author's name and their name for the patch, usually copied out of their readme) until you reach:
Code: [Select]
' Secret of Mana No Music 1.0
' by Kethinov        Apr 2019
It should be the first result as of when I wrote this.

Just below the authorship comment you'll see:
Code: [Select]
ASM <.asm>
FILE <VWF>
FILE <Reloc>
The unnamed ".asm" file is the Vanilla and general case patches (and usually what I mark up with comments the most thoroughly). VWF is the VWF Edition specific patches, and Reloc is the Relocalized-specific patches. To have a Relocalized compatible IPS, it will need to not have the VWF Edition fixups, since Relocalized overwrites VWF Edition data.

Scroll down a little to:
Code: [Select]
&(patches)\NoMusic\Reloc\.asmUnder that are the three relevant offsets (in SNES memory address format, $E12D0C = 0x212D0C as a file offset, since SoM is a HiROM so more or less you can just add 0xC00000 to raw file offsets to get the SNES memory address the ROM's data will be loaded at).

This is the whole No Music hack copied out of the ZPS for viewing here:
Code: [Select]
&(patches)\NoMusic
REQ [Audio]
REQ No_Music

' Secret of Mana No Music 1.0
' by Kethinov        Apr 2019

ASM <.asm>
FILE <VWF>
FILE <Reloc>
&(patches)\NoMusic\.asm

'[Play Sound / Music]
@OFF $C30181
'BEQ $15 ' $0198
BEQ $0A ' $018D

'[Event 0FC: Cannon Fire]
@OFF $C924B3
'RAW 40 02C8 00 CC ' music (Id: 02C8, Fade: 00, Volume: CC) Cannon Fire
RAW 01 0101 01 01 ' nop x5

'[Event 785: Earthquake Noise]
@OFF $CA9526
'RAW 40 0212 00 88 ' music (Id: 0212, Fade: 00, Volume: 88) Earthquake Noise
RAW 02 ' return
RAW 00 ' end

'[Event 78D: Waterfall Hiss]
@OFF $CA9564
'RAW 40 0222 0F 88 ' music (Id: 0222, Fade: 0F, Volume: 88) Waterfall Hiss
RAW 02 ' return
RAW 00 ' end

&(patches)\NoMusic\VWF
REQ [Text]
REQ VWF_Edition
IF Relocalized
REQ FALSE
ENDIF
ASM <.asm>
&(patches)\NoMusic\VWF\.asm

'[Event 0FC: Cannon Fire]
@OFF $E12CE1
RAW 01 0101 01 01

'[Event 785: Earthquake Noise]
@OFF $E2EFF3
RAW 02 00

'[Event 78D: Waterfall Hiss]
@OFF $E2F031
RAW 02 00

&(patches)\NoMusic\Reloc
REQ [Text]
REQ Relocalized
ASM <.asm>
&(patches)\NoMusic\Reloc\.asm

'sig 40 02C8 00 CC 31
'[Event 0FC: Cannon Fire]
@OFF $E12D0C
RAW 01 0101 01 01

'sig 40 0212 00 88 02
'[Event 785: Earthquake Noise]
@OFF $E2F0C5
RAW 02 00

'sig 40 0222 0F 88 02
'[Event 78D: Waterfall Hiss]
@OFF $E2F103
RAW 02 00

You could also uncheck everything except "[Text]" and "Relocalized" in the patcher, generate a patched ROM and rename it, then check "[Audio]" and "No Music" and generate a second patched ROM to then generate an IPS from (against that first renamed patched ROM). Haven't tested that specific combination, but as long as I didn't screw up, that should create a Relocalized 1.7 compatible IPS for No Music.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190426
Post by: Timbo on April 27, 2019, 09:01:30 pm
If you are going to open up the goblin Village. Would it be possible to also open up are there areas of the game that get closed off, like the pure land?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190426
Post by: Queue on April 27, 2019, 09:15:58 pm
Not 100% sure which "you" you mean, but I've done as much to the Goblin Village as I personally intend to. Regardless, regarding other areas, probably, though I haven't looked into anything else yet; I had to fix up the Goblin Village for Scroll Hack (etc.) and things just got out of hand. For the Pure Land, I imagine the most painless way would be to add a door (or modify a step-on event, if there is one) somewhere in the map you land at after finishing it that connects back to somewhere earlier that itself has good room connections. Not sure what other fixups would be necessary though. Or maybe when you land it's an on-enter event that dictates what map you're sent to and that can be modified? Again, haven't looked into it, so just guessing wildly. Modifying maps is pretty difficult and time-consuming so I guess any time you can modify events to get the job done instead is good.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190426
Post by: kethinov on May 02, 2019, 09:07:49 pm
I released another new hack: http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4494/

This one changes the boss fight music for the first two bosses in the Mana Fortress (Buffy and Dread Slime) from the standard boss fight music to two rather underutilized tracks in the game's score: "Morning is Here" (assigned to Buffy) and "One of Them is Hope" (assigned to Dread Slime).

In the original game these tracks are only heard during some brief dialog sequences just after defeating Dark Lich. Those dialog sequences are so short that it's possible to not even hear the entirety of either track. Playing them during the first two boss fights in the Mana Fortress too gives these two terrific tracks a bit more room to breathe. Plus by this point in the game you are probably tired of hearing the same old boss fight music anyway. Getting to hear these two tense and dramatic tracks instead helps add to the grandiosity of the Fortress.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190426
Post by: Queue on May 02, 2019, 10:10:32 pm
I already snagged it. Seems like a solid idea. I used a slightly modified "One of Them is Hope" for the Turbo title screen music for the same reason: neat song that you basically don't get to hear.

I'm working on something REALLY stupid at the moment that may prove fruitless, and is taking longer than I'd expected, but here's hoping.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190426
Post by: kethinov on May 05, 2019, 11:34:18 am
Updated three of my hacks:

- Neko and Watts in the Mana Fortress (https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4413/): Fixed the VWF issue Queue pointed out.
- Equipment Progression Balance (https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4422/): Fixed a crash when combined with VWF reported by someone who emailed me.
- Magical Herb (https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4426/): Compressed the code the same way Queue did in the Turbo patcher.

Going to work on compatibility fixes for Relocalized next. Thanks for the help, Queue!
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190426
Post by: teahouser on May 06, 2019, 02:44:17 am
The file upload says the free hosting period has expired and only premium members can download the file. Would you be able to re upload it so it is available again?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190426
Post by: Queue on May 06, 2019, 02:11:49 pm
Re-upload of Version 2019-04-26:
https://ufile.io/3n4p2wl7 (https://ufile.io/3n4p2wl7)

I've been trying to use that 7-day file host limit to force myself to get out a new release at least once a week, but what I'm currently working on has taken longer than expected. Sorry about that. The sad part is if I get it working, I'm not sure it'll even be well received, but at least it's been fun to work on (details intentionally left vague).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190426
Post by: teahouser on May 06, 2019, 02:30:42 pm
I'm excited to play all of your future creations, your passion for SoM is very refreshing. I got it working correctly on SNES Classic, thank you. The problem was I wasn't using the stock preset ID 10B0, I was using a different one that was only enabling the HD text, the stock ID fixed the gamma issues.

One question, if Relocalized is checked then his white title screen overrides the one you made?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190507
Post by: Queue on May 07, 2019, 08:54:57 pm
Version 2019-05-07:
https://ufile.io/2twxfgth (https://ufile.io/2twxfgth)

Changes:
- Rewrote the imported MSU-1 hack using source code graciously provided by DarkShock
- Fixed a crash caused by making a safe save state without the MSU-1 hack enabled, then adding it and loading said save state
- Minor FastROM adjustment and code cleanup
- Removed Relocalized internal ROM name dependency on [[Combat]] section

Okay, time to reveal my madness:
- MSU-1 support for ZSNES v1.51 (official Windows build only, at the moment).

How to use it?
- Make sure [[Audio]], [Enable_MSU-1] and [_ZSNES_MSU-1] are On when patching.
- Download a Secret of Mana MSU-1 sound pack and extract the .msu and .pcm files to the same folder as the patched SoM ROM.
- Use Snes9x-style MSU-1 file naming; there's a batch file in the Turbo readmes folder to hopefully simplify renaming.
- Launch the official Windows build of ZSNES v1.51 (not FuSoYa's 8MB R2 build, nor any other variant).
- Open the "Config", "Sound" menu and set "Sampling Rate:" to 44100Hz.
- Load the patched SoM ROM.

The Turbo title screen song is track number 63 if you want to override it with a PCM file.

I have only tested this on my primary computer so far, so there is the definite possibility this will not work on some system configurations.

I will be releasing a "plugin" version of this MSU-1 support (a dsound.dll file to put in the ZSNES program folder alongside zsnesw.exe), but wanted to get this crazier version tested first.



Example file structure:
SNES\Games\Secret of Mana, Turbo.scm
SNES\Games\Secret of Mana, Turbo.msu (<- empty file)
SNES\Games\Secret of Mana, Turbo-0.pcm
SNES\Games\Secret of Mana, Turbo-1.pcm
SNES\Games\Secret of Mana, Turbo-2.pcm
etc.

It also supports naming a folder RomName.msu in the same folder as the game ROM, where you put the RomName-###.pcm files inside said RomName.msu folder. So, for example, you could have:
SNES\Games\Secret of Mana, Turbo.scm
SNES\Games\Secret of Mana, Turbo.msu (<- this is a folder)
SNES\Games\Secret of Mana, Turbo.msu\Secret of Mana, Turbo-0.pcm
SNES\Games\Secret of Mana, Turbo.msu\Secret of Mana, Turbo-1.pcm
SNES\Games\Secret of Mana, Turbo.msu\Secret of Mana, Turbo-2.pcm
etc.



teahouser, thanks for the vote of confidence. Yes, currently Relocalized recoloring the title screen logo isn't a separate option. I personally like the original yellow, but haven't gotten around to adding in some configurable option for it yet.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190507
Post by: teahouser on May 07, 2019, 10:39:34 pm
I also really enjoy your yellow title screen with your added Turbo logo, very sharp and matches the OG SNES box art spot on. If kethinov Timbo could supply you with a version of his Relocalized patch that doesn't touch the intro gfx at all, or you add an option to override his intro with yours when using Relocalized with Turbo.

I play on SNES classic so I'll unfortunately not be able to take advantage of all the work you've done with MSU-1 support but it is very impressive non the less.

Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190507
Post by: Queue on May 07, 2019, 10:53:57 pm
Timbo has already provided me with the offsets for the palette change (the vanilla offset is actually commented within the Turbo ZPS file already), I just haven't added an override yet; it doesn't take that much effort, but it's still more than zero and I only have so much time in a day.



Next update will have another old nit-pick fixed:
(https://i.imgur.com/rzDrabe.gif) -> (https://i.imgur.com/WwHojEd.png)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190507
Post by: Sogeking666 on May 10, 2019, 11:33:52 am
Finally got to try your hack, tremendous work, thanks man!!!

Just wish there was a way to keep the US music for the intro... could it be included somehow in a future version?

Still, with the MSU soundtrack, makes an amazing fresh experience. Thanks again!
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190507
Post by: teahouser on May 10, 2019, 07:24:45 pm
Finally got to try your hack, tremendous work, thanks man!!!

Just wish there was a way to keep the US music for the intro... could it be included somehow in a future version?

Still, with the MSU soundtrack, makes an amazing fresh experience. Thanks again!

To have the original intro music you must uncheck the "Turbo logo" in the title screen patch options. You won't have the added Turbo logo displayed unfortunately, but the music will be back to stock.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190507
Post by: kethinov on May 10, 2019, 07:29:29 pm
Next update will have another old nit-pick fixed:
(https://i.imgur.com/rzDrabe.gif) -> (https://i.imgur.com/WwHojEd.png)

Wow, nice find. I always wondered what that glitched graphic was. That looks so much nicer.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190507
Post by: Sogeking666 on May 11, 2019, 07:54:48 am
To have the original intro music you must uncheck the "Turbo logo" in the title screen patch options. You won't have the added Turbo logo displayed unfortunately, but the music will be back to stock.

Perfect thanks!!
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190507
Post by: Hybrid Divide on May 13, 2019, 02:42:12 am
Queue Thanks for the fantastic work, but I do have one request, and one bug I can't seem to figure out.

Bug: I left the "Pause" stuff for safe save states and such checked, and when I press start, the game is paused.  BUT on an Analogue Super NT, at least, resuming the game is very touchy.  You have to press start very quickly, or it just pauses the game again.  And on higan, pressing start to pause the game makes me unable to resume the game at all!  The music is still going, but I can't un-pause the game at all.  Help!

And my request: Is there any way to restore the colored buttons on the control menu to their japanese versions instead of the two different shades of purple that we got in the US?  I realize this could affect the colors on the action grid screen a bit, too.  But the option to change those buttons would be nice.

(https://tcrf.net/images/thumb/c/c6/Seiken_Densetsu_2-Buttons.png/256px-Seiken_Densetsu_2-Buttons.png) instead of (https://tcrf.net/images/thumb/4/49/Secret_of_Mana-Buttons_US.png/256px-Secret_of_Mana-Buttons_US.png)

Thanks!

EDIT: Another small bug I've found is that when starting a game, after you enter your name, when you hit the button to start the story intro, either some patch garbled the sound, or a 2nd sound is triggered at the same time, but it sounds off compared to the original unaltered game.  (Hope I was able to explain that right)
The only audio options I have enabled are the unused fanfares, and attack sounds restarting.  Again, thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190513
Post by: Queue on May 13, 2019, 09:39:58 pm
Version 2019-05-13:
https://ufile.io/fwiw1x3w (https://ufile.io/fwiw1x3w)

Changes:
- ZSNES MSU-1 support improved, see details after this abbreviated change list
- Slight tweak to PCM renaming batch file (in the readmes folder) to copy song 55 to 63
- Verified and incremented Kethinov's "Magical Herb" and "Neko and Watts in the Mana Fortress" patch version numbers from 1.0 to 1.1
- Added Kethinov's "Different Boss Music for Buffy and Dread Slime" patch
- Added a new [Miscellaneous] category and moved New_Game_Plus, Restore_Kettle_Kin, Restore_Aegagropilon and Revisit_Goblin_Village to it
- Added Graphics\Japanese_Button_Colors (which also reverts the Action Grid purple color)
- Unhid Audio\SFX_Channel_Limit by Mop; it's been in the ZPS file for a while, it's disabled by default
- Split the Turbo title screen song off to its own option under [Title_Screen]
- Added Title_Screen\Override_White_Palette
- Added Bug_Fixes\Tsunami_Scramble_Fix

ZSNES MSU-1 Changes:
- Fixed some mistakes I'd made in v1 support
- Added MSU-1 v2 support (ability to save and resume track position for one song at a time)
- Added support for save states (saving, loading and rewinding)

Still no 'fast forward' / 'slow down' support for MSU-1 audio and still requires ZSNES audio output to be set to 44100Hz. I'm working on it.



Hybrid Divide, I don't have an answer for you regarding safe save state pausing yet, still need to look into it.

For the audio issue, it's probably a side effect of Audio\Restartable_Attack_Sounds (pretty sure the character naming screen tries to spam sound effects). I'll see if I can come up with a reasonable solution but no promises.

I did get the Japanese / Super Famicom-style button colors you asked about working (in the [Graphics] section). It was surprisingly tricky to figure out; the red, green and yellow colors all still existed in the US release, blue was changed to purple and one Action Grid color was changed into the pink-ish button colors. They added a helper function to the code that preps the various buttons for video memory that was recoloring the buttons and overriding their palette color choices (so I disabled said helper function call). Hopefully there aren't any side effects to that. I did revert the Action Grid color when this feature is enabled as well, but technically it's not mandatory for the buttons to get their Super Famicom coloring.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190513
Post by: Hybrid Divide on May 14, 2019, 04:02:05 am
Queue Hey, thanks a lot!

I'll look into the audio thing a bit more and let you know if I find anything.  ;D
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190519
Post by: Queue on May 19, 2019, 09:34:25 pm
Version 2019-05-19:
https://ufile.io/rmu9t8hs (https://ufile.io/rmu9t8hs)

Changes:
- ZSNES MSU-1 support improved, see details below
- Slight adjustment to location of MSU-1 patch
- Added Kethinov's "Watts in the Haunted Forest" patch
- Added Kethinov's "Gaia's Navel With the Girl Without Doubling Back" patch
- Added Kethinov's "More Useful Evil Gate" patch
- Added a prerelease version of Kethinov's "Remove Barrels on Run" patch (hope you don't mind)
- Added Bug_Fixes\Barrel_Scramble_Fix; deals with some vanilla animation art issues related to barrels

ZSNES MSU-1 Changes:
- Added support for emulation 'fast forward' and 'slow down' (and non-1x baseline speed)
- Fixed and improved resume support; should now follow the spec exactly

This should mark the first fully usable ZSNES MSU-1 build now that variable emulation speed support is in.

Still requires ZSNES audio output to be set to 44100Hz, and doesn't maintain timing if the 'increment frame' hotkey is used. Audio quality is pretty bad when not at 1x speed.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190519
Post by: darthvaderx on May 22, 2019, 03:16:36 pm
Thanks for the yellow title option, you are the best ... :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190525
Post by: Queue on May 25, 2019, 06:18:31 pm
Version 2019-05-25:
https://ufile.io/yzk0a2dt (https://ufile.io/yzk0a2dt)

Changes:
- Verified and incremented Kethinov's "Remove Barrels on Run" patch version number from 0.0 to 1.1
- Added Kethinov's "Steal From Matango Innkeeper" (1.1) patch
- Tiny adjustment to Technical\Safe_Save_State, might improve unpause reliability on real hardware / accurate emulators (or might not help)
- Added Audio\Faster_Music_Crossfade; this simply disables the music fade out and is disabled by default because it sucks
- Overhauled Audio\Enable_MSU-1

So, let's talk about music. When a new song is played, if it has a fade duration set, it locks up the game and fades out whatever music is currently playing, if any, then it stalls again as it sends the new song to the SNES sound CPU, then gameplay resumes and the new song fades in. The original MSU-1 patch lacks any music crossfade (I realize there's never a true crossfade since they don't overlap, work with me here) behavior, but does support the asynchronous fade command; I rewrote large chunks of the MSU-1 patch to fix a race condition in said fade code, and added the functionality for vanilla-style crossfade, including the blocking fade out behavior. Then I went a step further and added asynchronous fade out for both vanilla and MSU-1 music. Crossfade also works when transitioning between an SPC and MSU song, and vice versa, which opens up options for future features (random SPC / MSU song selection for example). Async fade out works for vanilla music even without the MSU files (or with an emulator that lacks MSU support), as long as you have the correct features enabled when patching. There's still a pause when the new SPC song starts playing, but you no longer have an artificial wait on the fade out.

I'm among those who think vanilla SNES music is often beautiful (particularly many of Square's games) and that CD audio remakes, orchestral renditions, ambient remixes, etc. are generally inferior, but the Secret of Mana Remaster music is actually pretty darn good; if you can get it set up for use with the MSU-1 patch, I highly recommend you give it a chance (using the alternate tracks for 4 and 12, because those two do kinda suck). You can always remove the MSU files again if it doesn't suit your tastes. A side benefit is faster area transition times / no music hiccoughs.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190525
Post by: kethinov on May 25, 2019, 08:25:47 pm
Some questions:

For equip 2nd weapon, is it possible to change the key for this or perhaps use a key combination? It's a shame to remap the X button given how useful it is to pause to another character's item ring. Perhaps hold R and press X should do it instead?

Also any idea how difficult it would be to prepopulate the character names in the naming screens?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190525
Post by: Queue on May 26, 2019, 03:09:24 am
Changing the single hotkey is easy, but the logic will need a little work to make it handle a multiple hotkey combination. I suspect zhaDe's intent with NGI though was for you to need to access the ring menus less frequently (via quick spells and fast weapon swap), so that X being overridden wasn't much of a hindrance. I know personally, that's how it feels for me once I get spell hotkeys set; I rarely pause except for items, and those I use via my controlled character anyway. Regardless, I'll give it a shot and see how it feels.

Not sure regarding the character names. Actually I'm not 100% sure what you're asking... For my new game plus junk I need to make some sort of adjustment related to character naming (when you name a character it also resets their stats and items, which is not great with a new game plus sort of scenario), so I'm going to be digging into naming related stuff soon-ish.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190525
Post by: kethinov on May 26, 2019, 12:17:26 pm
What I mean by character names is, for instance, when you get the naming screen for Randi at the very start of the game, it already says "Randi" in the box and you have to erase the name to change it to something else. (Same for Primm and Popoi.) Or perhaps another solution would be pressing start on an empty naming screen and the game auto names him Randi. Sort of like a Final Fantasy game where the characters have default names already. In SoM, they have default names, but you'd only know them if you read offscreen sources.

Regarding the X key, I do agree with the conceptual ambition of spell hotkeys replacing using the menus. Indeed, pausing is annoying and slows down the game. But I don't think this solution scales. There are only 8 possible spell hotkeys and far more spells in the game per character than that. So unless you remap the hotkeys frequently, there will never quite be enough. If you know what monsters/bosses are coming, you can prepare your hotkeys ahead of time, but I'm thinking about new players who won't have that foreknowledge ahead of time. They'll continue to resort to menuing. And having to press Y, then X to get to another character's menus would definitely annoy a new player.

Perhaps another solution would be to leave weapon hotswaps as-is, but to modify how spell hotkeys work to make it so mapping them explicitly is not necessary. Imagine something like this:


Under a system like that, you could cycle through elementals by pressing down while in the hotkey menu. And perhaps we could continue to reserve the four diagonals for expressly-set hotkeys that are staticly-bound regardless of what elemental you're focused on in the hotkey menu.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190530
Post by: Queue on May 27, 2019, 07:10:43 pm
Oh, while I've looked over the code that initializes the memory that stores the character names (it initializes them as all 0xFF bytes, which was an empty space in Japanese, but is the double-letter "go" in English), and it wouldn't be too hard to hijack said code and initialize them as whatever. However, changing the character naming screen to not start empty is an unknown; as in, I haven't looked at that so don't know how convoluted that'd be. I'm not a purist on official character names in games though, so... honestly not very interested in pursuing this myself. That said, of the two approaches: ignoring the initialization and just having the character naming screen start populated with the defaults, or having initialization set the default and having an empty name entry at character naming be valid and skip overwriting the initialized name memory; the latter is likely the easier route.

I cleaned up the weapon switch hotkey code a bit, but the bad news is most NGI hotkeys work under the assumption that the other NGI features with hotkeys are either there or not; so, for example, weapon switching can't work well with R+X if R is controlling manual block, because manual block puts the character into a looped animation, and looped animations prevent a weapon switch. R+X can be made to interfere with blocking (again, assuming R is block), but then you'd have to hold R+X for a non-zero amount of time to wait for the block animation to end (and possibly other related conditions to end). I gave this a shot, and it didn't feel great, but it also somewhat hinges on if you consider a delay to change weapons a positive or negative. A side benefit of rewriting this a little is now the weapon swap button can be held until it succeeds, so if you're mid-combat it's not quite so finicky.

An issue with the spell hotkeys is that code is pretty monstrously complicated; just changing that system so it didn't require holding multiple simultaneous buttons, and to let you back out of a selection, and to trigger the cast on B press instead of B release, took multiple days of analysis, careful changes and plenty of testing. On top of this, it can only show (sanely) one icon at a time, and even that capability was especially clever work on zhaDe's part, getting all code in place to load and show a given spell icon (and its palette by hijacking the character's weapon palette). If I were to change the spell hotkeys to let you cycle and select among all spells (which I can't say I'm jumping at the task, because it'd likely be a week's effort), it'd still only let you see the icon for one at a time, and if I went that route I'd be dropping specific hotkey binding entirely because it'd be absurdly complicated (for the player); as is, I ignore the diagonal hotkeys personally and only bind cardinal directions, as the diagonals generally require you to hold them as you select, unlike the cardinals, and 4 (or heck, 2) per caster covers my needs in combat. Generally I just use cure water, analyzer, magic absorb and earth slide. -_-

I am modestly interested in also cramming real-time item use (via the boy) onto the quick spell hotkeys, but that's lots of work for less reward than what the system does for spells.




Version 2019-05-30:
https://ufile.io/ts20orud (https://ufile.io/ts20orud)

Changes:
- Added Kethinov's "Alternate Karon" (v1.0, mysterious) patch
- Fixed lack of music when loading a save in the Mana Fortress
- Fixed a volume issue when music switched from an SPC to an MSU track
- Audio\Async_Music_Crossfade promoted out of (Experimental) status
- Added Bug_Fixes\Missable_Spear_Fix; defeating Tropicallo before getting the Spear is now safe
- Code reorganizing related to weapon switch hotkey
- Improvements for New Game Plus:
-- character naming events are bypassed (avoids lots of issues)
-- weapon levels survive the end game to new game transition
-- re-obtaining weapons no longer bugs them (you will have to burn money reforging though)
-- early game enemies can hurt you
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190608
Post by: Queue on June 04, 2019, 11:35:15 pm
Version 2019-06-04:
https://ufile.io/dokmt88n (https://ufile.io/dokmt88n)


Changes:
- Added Kethinov's "Overworld Hidden Treasure" patch
- Updated Kethinov's "Early Luna" to v1.2
- Slight fix to Alternate Karon (the mistake was mine and not present in Kethinov's patch)
- Slightly moved Watts (like 6 feet) in the Haunted Forest location to avoid Scroll Hack spoiling his presence
- Fixed and enabled Audio\Random_MSU_or_SPC (off by default); gives a 50/50 chance between MSU and SPC music if you have MSU music set up
- Added Items\Unique_Equipment: Limits helmets, armor and accessories so you can only carry one of any given piece of equipment. Other than causing a difficulty spike for the Pure Land (due to lack of defense), this seems like a pretty positive change for itemization. May warrant an item rebalance to truly flesh out its potential.




Version 2019-06-08:
https://ufile.io/kshklcly (https://ufile.io/kshklcly)

Changes:
- Added Kethinov's "Neko in the Underground City"
- Updated Kethinov's "Watts in the Haunted Forest" to v1.1
- Updated Kethinov's "Overworld Hidden Treasure" ("Treasure in Northtown Woods")
- Slight tweak to Kethinov's "More Useful Evil Gate" to set the Mana Beast to all elements instead of just changing it from Dryad to Shade
- Added Kethinov's "Reverse MP Absorb on Evil and Undead Monsters" (altered slightly for safety, behavior is the same)
- Added code comment to Revisit_Goblin_Village related to re-enabling the hut doors
- Added a "...SHRIEK!" sound to the Goblin Stew event (as part of Revisit_Goblin_Village)
- Map cleanup for Northtown, notably no more stairway chimneys, scroll hack compatibility, and a non-solid shadow (and Mara's house in Southtown's chimney)
- Map cleanup for Northtown Interiors (and Mara's house in Southtown's interior)
- Added Miscellaneous\Revisit_Sunken_Continent; speak to "Girl" in the Tree Palace to re-extend the bridge back down into the Grand Palace interior, then work your way backwards to reach the Underground City
- Added Miscellaneous\Revisit_Pure_Land; walk around the sides of the tree to find a cave
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190608
Post by: lexluthermiester on June 09, 2019, 12:49:22 am
Version 2019-06-08:
https://ufile.io/kshklcly (https://ufile.io/kshklcly)

Changes:
- Added Kethinov's "Neko in the Underground City"
- Updated Kethinov's "Watts in the Haunted Forest" to v1.1
- Updated Kethinov's "Overworld Hidden Treasure" ("Treasure in Northtown Woods")
- Slight tweak to Kethinov's "More Useful Evil Gate" to set the Mana Beast to all elements instead of just changing it from Dryad to Shade
- Added Kethinov's "Reverse MP Absorb on Evil and Undead Monsters" (altered slightly for safety, behavior is the same)
- Added code comment to Revisit_Goblin_Village related to re-enabling the hut doors
- Added a "...SHRIEK!" sound to the Goblin Stew event (as part of Revisit_Goblin_Village)
- Map cleanup for Northtown, notably no more stairway chimneys, scroll hack compatibility, and a non-solid shadow (and Mara's house in Southtown's chimney)
- Map cleanup for Northtown Interiors (and Mara's house in Southtown's interior)
- Added Miscellaneous\Revisit_Sunken_Continent; speak to "Girl" in the Tree Palace to re-extend the bridge back down into the Grand Palace interior, then work your way backwards to reach the Underground City
- Added Miscellaneous\Revisit_Pure_Land; walk around the sides of the tree to find a cave
Continued impressive quality! Great Fun!  :woot!: :crazy: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190611
Post by: Queue on June 11, 2019, 10:58:18 pm
Version 2019-06-11:
https://ufile.io/smt0ddy5 (https://ufile.io/smt0ddy5)

Changes:
- Updated Kethinov's "Treasure in Northtown Woods" to v1.1 (fixes Southtown merchant palette)
- Bumped ZPS patcher version from v0.18+ to v0.18++
- The ZPS patcher now saves and loads which features you have checked / unchecked, and any changes made to the Advanced Options window
- Settings save to an INI file that matches the name and location of the ZPS patch file; so "SoM Turbo.190611.zps" will wind up with "SoM Turbo.190611.ini" in the same folder
- Migrating settings between updates will require renaming the INI file to match the new ZPS file name
- Settings are saved when you click Apply, and loaded when you select a ZPS file that has a matching INI file; delete the INI file to reset settings to defaults
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190611
Post by: maseter on June 12, 2019, 04:15:24 am
Could you copy/paste your ini Queue, or are the defaults how you play personally?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190611
Post by: Queue on June 12, 2019, 03:54:57 pm
The defaults are generally how I play (like, for fun, not when developing / testing). I often flip between vanilla, VWF Edition and Relocalized for text because VWF Edition and Relocalized have the most compatibility fixups to double-check, but that's about it. Because I control the defaults, they're set to what I prefer.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190611
Post by: darthvaderx on June 13, 2019, 09:39:51 am
The defaults are generally how I play (like, for fun, not when developing / testing). I often flip between vanilla, VWF Edition and Relocalized for text because VWF Edition and Relocalized have the most compatibility fixups to double-check, but that's about it. Because I control the defaults, they're set to what I prefer.


Could you copy/paste your ini Queue, or are the defaults how you play personally?

Here's the readme.txt I made with the options I use in the game:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5pppc9aiq5mv29u/readme.txt?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/5pppc9aiq5mv29u/readme.txt?dl=0)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190611
Post by: Mr X on June 13, 2019, 03:44:19 pm
I tried your latest update, have got the girl and I can't seem to buy more than one arm guard.

If it helps, I usually  also use Easier or Harder Monsters patch also (the one that doubles HP of bosses).

EDIT: It still happens that I can't buy more than one arm guard even without the above mentioned patch.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190611
Post by: Queue on June 13, 2019, 09:21:11 pm
Items\Unique_Equipment
(Obviously disable it if you find it unpleasant.)

I know it won't be everyone's cup of tea, but with how few items the game has, I personally am enamored with the result.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190611
Post by: Mr X on June 14, 2019, 12:54:16 am
Items\Unique_Equipment
(Obviously disable it if you find it unpleasant.)

I know it won't be everyone's cup of tea, but with how few items the game has, I personally am enamored with the result.

Oh ok thanks. Out of curiosity may I ask what's the idea behind that?


Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190611
Post by: Queue on June 14, 2019, 11:00:09 pm
There aren't that many items in the game; Items\Unique_Equipment forces you to use basically all of them because you can't just double or triple up on whatever is "best."

The only point in the game where this really hurts is when there's a huge jump in defense on equipment AND the most accessible option is a single helmet, armor and accessory available from one merchant (in vanilla it's not unusual to simply buy three sets of it before heading into the volcano). The rest of the game there's just enough variety within items available at a given time that you'll be fine (defense-wise), and you get to decide who you want to wear what instead of having three clones.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190611
Post by: vivify93 on June 15, 2019, 12:44:49 am
Just wanted to pop in and say thanks for this; I just tricked out my SNES Secret of Mana copy with a bunch of enhancements and bug fixes.

Now, if only someone would make it so Secret of Evermore let you confirm in menus with A and run with B...
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190611
Post by: Mr X on June 15, 2019, 01:25:20 am
There aren't that many items in the game; Items\Unique_Equipment forces you to use basically all of them because you can't just double or triple up on whatever is "best."

The only point in the game where this really hurts is when there's a huge jump in defense on equipment AND the most accessible option is a single helmet, armor and accessory available from one merchant (in vanilla it's not unusual to simply buy three sets of it before heading into the volcano). The rest of the game there's just enough variety within items available at a given time that you'll be fine (defense-wise), and you get to decide who you want to wear what instead of having three clones.

I am actually enjoying it, definitely wont turn that off 
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190611
Post by: vivify93 on June 17, 2019, 08:34:06 pm
Hey Queue, do any of the bug fixes fix the extra Sword's Orb glitch? That's probably the only one I'd like to stay, if at all possible.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190611
Post by: Queue on June 18, 2019, 12:52:12 am
If you mean saving at Neko in Ice Country, then starting a new game, then soft resetting at Mantis Ant, then loading the save, to get an 8th sword orb, two different things interfere with doing that:
- Bug_Fixes\Ice_Country_Neko_Landing
- Technical\Disable_Soft_Reset
You'll need both of those off for that.

If you use:
- Items\Weapons_Progression_Balance
You'll get an 8th sword orb (to forge the level 9 sword) without glitches.

In either case, I recommend:
- Bug_Fixes\Mana_Magic_Unequip_Fix
Since Mana Magic has issues when it fades in general, and especially if you have the level 9 sword (though this does nerf the level 9 sword's stats to be in-line with other level 9 weapons; it's still crazy buffed when under the effects of Mana Magic though). Because the level 9 weapons are all so bad (no procs), the level 9 sword is still the best of them. Lots of level 6 weapons are totally better weapons though. -_-
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190611
Post by: vivify93 on June 18, 2019, 01:00:55 am
Oh, OK. I enabled the Neko Ice Country landing bug fix. I'll live without my extra Sword's Orb like a good boy, lol. Thank you very much!
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190611
Post by: Hybrid Divide on June 18, 2019, 05:31:25 am
@Queue

Thanks again for all your hard work!  Quick question!  I read that the "Level 9 Weapons Progression Balance" patch was updated recently.
Will the new version be implemented into the next SoM Turbo release?

Thanks!  :laugh:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190618
Post by: Queue on June 18, 2019, 03:48:17 pm
It will be, but probably not the very next release; you can safely assume I'll have all of Kethinov's hacks available and as their newest versions eventually. It just takes time (and there are so many!). For example, the next release will finally have his "Easier or Harder Monsters" hack, but it took a while to figure out how to import it (it's over 100 2-byte edits, which is pretty horrible to type by hand, and still tough to copy and paste because it's a bunch of small disjointed changes) and give the user a means to choose settings for it. I'm hoping to have a release later today since the most recent download either has expired, or will very soon.



Version 2019-06-18:
https://ufile.io/lfa4z3tr (https://ufile.io/lfa4z3tr)

Changes:
- Added Kethinov's "Easier or Harder Monsters" (configurable via the Advanced Options menu)
- Added superscript 3 markers to features that expand the ROM from vanilla 2 MB to 3 MB (features marked with ~ expand it to 4 MB)
- Feature cross-dependencies sorted; if you uncheck every feature with a superscript 3 or ~ in its description, you'll get a 2 MB output ROM
- Fixed a bug in the ZSNES MSU-1 loader that caused a lockup when starting a new game in ZSNES
- Added a bug fix for an obscure vanilla memory corruption bug related to attacking bosses (Bug_Fixes\Boss_Block_Fix)
- Minor code cleanup
- Fixed Spring Beak rendering issue (related to Scroll Hack)
- Fixed Mech Rider II rendering issue (related to Scroll Hack) and fixed minor art issue on the lower arches in his fight room
- Fixed a tree north of the Potos elder's house
- Fixed two minor art issues outside the Fire Palace
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190618
Post by: lexluthermiester on June 18, 2019, 11:59:57 pm
It will be, but probably not the very next release; you can safely assume I'll have all of Kethinov's hacks available and as their newest versions eventually. It just takes time (and there are so many!). For example, the next release will finally have his "Easier or Harder Monsters" hack, but it took a while to figure out how to import it (it's over 100 2-byte edits, which is pretty horrible to type by hand, and still tough to copy and paste because it's a bunch of small disjointed changes) and give the user a means to choose settings for it. I'm hoping to have a release later today since the most recent download either has expired, or will very soon.



Version 2019-06-18:
https://ufile.io/lfa4z3tr (https://ufile.io/lfa4z3tr)

Changes:
- Added Kethinov's "Easier or Harder Monsters" (configurable via the Advanced Options menu)
- Added superscript 3 markers to features that expand the ROM from vanilla 2 MB to 3 MB (features marked with ~ expand it to 4 MB)
- Feature cross-dependencies sorted; if you uncheck every feature with a superscript 3 or ~ in its description, you'll get a 2 MB output ROM
- Fixed a bug in the ZSNES MSU-1 loader that caused a lockup when starting a new game in ZSNES
- Added a bug fix for an obscure vanilla memory corruption bug related to attacking bosses (Bug_Fixes\Boss_Block_Fix)
- Minor code cleanup
- Fixed Spring Beak rendering issue (related to Scroll Hack)
- Fixed Mech Rider II rendering issue (related to Scroll Hack) and fixed minor art issue on the lower arches in his fight room
- Fixed a tree north of the Potos elder's house
- Fixed two minor art issues outside the Fire Palace
Rockin it man, Rockin it!  :thumbsup:  :beer:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190618
Post by: kethinov on June 19, 2019, 02:00:44 pm
- Minor code cleanup
- Fixed Spring Beak rendering issue (related to Scroll Hack)
- Fixed Mech Rider II rendering issue (related to Scroll Hack) and fixed minor art issue on the lower arches in his fight room
- Fixed a tree north of the Potos elder's house
- Fixed two minor art issues outside the Fire Palace

Which hacks were modified here? Just Tidy Map Pieces? (I presume not Scroll Hack itself?)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190618
Post by: Queue on June 19, 2019, 03:53:57 pm
Scroll Hack is tiny, just 4 bytes changed to alter the amount of slack allowed on each side of the screen before you start scrolling, so there's not really any way to modify it (aside from going nuts and rewriting how screen scrolling works).

Anyway, the two changes that mention bosses (and Scroll Hack) are changes to Bug_Fixes\Boss_Rendering_Fix, the other two are Bug_Fixes\Tidy_Map_Pieces. When I do map tidy-ing on a fixed boss room, those changes are in Bug_Fixes\Boss_Rendering_Fix as well since they often have to accommodate or even depend on the boss room shift.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190618
Post by: kethinov on June 19, 2019, 06:37:28 pm
It occurs to me another possible approach to address my concern about Equip 2nd Weapon is to steal the [Start] button back from Safe Save State and use that key for it instead of X. Is making that an option a possibility? Could potentially even make it compatible with Safe Save State by instead requiring Safe Save State to be activated with R + [Start] instead or something.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190618
Post by: Queue on June 21, 2019, 04:20:27 pm
I'm not sure Start would be viable, at least if quick weapon switching is to be available for multiplayer. I overloaded Start with safe save state because I figure a pause primarily meant for save states made sense as a single player feature, and because Start is often a pause button (SoM's got pretty atypical button assignments), so having it be a button combination (like in zhaDe's original set up for NGI) was overkill.

A combination press for quick weapon switch isn't unthinkable, it just isn't super trivial to implement. Changing any of zhaDe's hotkey code usually involves untangling side effects, not because there's anything wrong with it, but because there are so few buttons, they're all already used for something, or often multiple things at this point. For example, the reason R + X is non-trivial is if Manual Blocking is on and overrides R, when you press R it triggers the block animation, and weapon swapping needs the character to not be playing a block animation (among other things, keeping the explanation plain). So you can make R + X not block (or stop blocking), but it takes time for the character to stop blocking, so you'd have to hold R + X to get a weapon swap... but then weapon swap code would need to be changed to wait until a swap is okay rather than seeing the buttons, knowing now isn't a good time, then not recognizing that same press until they've been released (I actually already did change this button logic in a previous release to make it more tolerant in combat). Weapon swap would work with a perfectly synchronous press of R + X, but strict timing for something like that would suck. Setting the hotkey to R + X (or whatever button or combination) isn't the difficult part; having the buttons not conflict with others is. R + Start has similar considerations on block animation timing (the inverse of your suggestion), plus if you release R before Start, avoiding triggering any of Start's other behavior.

I get that you want vanilla X behavior back, I just haven't found anything adequate for an alternate button choice.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190618
Post by: kethinov on June 21, 2019, 05:30:26 pm
Ah yeah, duh, [Start] is needed to tag in / tag out for multiplayer, so you're right that is obviously not viable. Dunno why I forgot that. [R] + [X] is really the only good solution. A shame it would be so much work.

June 22, 2019, 01:44:53 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Found a bug. When you apply the Turbo Logo without the other title screen hacks applied, this happens:

(http://kethinov.com/images/linked/som/turboglitch.png)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190618
Post by: Queue on June 22, 2019, 04:11:58 pm
Whoops, I see why that happens. The Turbo Logo needs to re-arrange the tile map for the logo; you can see there that the tile map is wrong; that's the vanilla logo tile map with the Turbo Logo tiles filling the vanilla unused spaces in the logo. In order to look good with the restored Japanese background image, I have to shift the entire Secret of Mana logo up. Currently, the Turbo Logo depends on that logo shifting code the restoration uses, so if Restore_Title_Screen is off, the tile map doesn't get changed at all. Just need to rework the patcher logic a little to compensate (erm, which I did before I finished typing and posting this).

Thanks for the bug report. =)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190426
Post by: darthvaderx on June 23, 2019, 06:02:06 pm
Updated three of my hacks:

- Neko and Watts in the Mana Fortress (https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4413/): Fixed the VWF issue Queue pointed out.
- Equipment Progression Balance (https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4422/): Fixed a crash when combined with VWF reported by someone who emailed me.
- Magical Herb (https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4426/): Compressed the code the same way Queue did in the Turbo patcher.

Going to work on compatibility fixes for Relocalized next. Thanks for the help, Queue!

In Seiken Desentsu 3/Trials of Mana if you hold down the A button during a battle, the character you are controlling will automatically fight, would it be possible to implement something like this in Secret of Mana?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190426
Post by: lexluthermiester on June 24, 2019, 11:24:57 am
In Seiken Desentsu 3/Trials of Mana if you hold down the A button during a battle, the character you are controlling will automatically fight, would it be possible to implement something like this in Secret of Mana?
Maybe. It might be possible to let the AI routines take over on command..
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190611
Post by: vivify93 on June 24, 2019, 11:55:27 am
Just wanted to pop in and say thanks for this; I just tricked out my SNES Secret of Mana copy with a bunch of enhancements and bug fixes.

Now, if only someone would make it so Secret of Evermore let you confirm in menus with A and run with B...
Well, lookee here! https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4580/  :D I am one happy Mana fan!
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190611
Post by: lexluthermiester on June 24, 2019, 12:06:44 pm
Well, lookee here! https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4580/  :D I am one happy Mana fan!
I was just looking for that post to tell you. Just couldn't remember where it was or who said it! You might have been the inspiration for it..  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190624
Post by: Queue on June 24, 2019, 05:10:26 pm
Version 2019-06-24:
https://ufile.io/bth5wubd (https://ufile.io/bth5wubd)

Changes:
- Updated Kethinov's Level 9 Weapons Progression Balance to 1.4 (and think I got compatibility stuff for it all sorted... hopefully I didn't introduce any bugs)
- Modified Kethinov's Early Luna to be fully compatible with VWF Edition and Relocalized
- Minor compatibility fixup related to Easier or Harder Monsters
- Fixed Turbo_Logo without Restore_Title_Screen graphics issue

Hm, listing it out like that it doesn't look like much, but those first two things took some time.



darthvaderx, it may be possible to turn on the AI for a normally human-controlled character while a button is held, but not really sure what button to use. Attack (like in Trials of Mana) is no good since that's how you charge your weapon. Run could work IF there's a sane way to detect whether you're in or out of combat (though this would disable running while in combat, also like Trials of Mana). Most other buttons have already been reassigned; could be mutually exclusive with another feature, but that'd be a bit of a bummer.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190624
Post by: Eids on June 24, 2019, 05:14:13 pm
Just wanted to say thanks to you and the modders who contributed to this and continue to update it. I recently started playing it with a friend and it's been a ton of fun so far with how fast-paced it is!

We've made it to the town with mushrooms and there have only been a few issues we've run into:

(Running on bsnes-hd beta7 with SoM Turbo.190611)
• We couldn't find an exit after entering the goblin village. The map just loops around endlessly so we got stuck there.
• Pausing can cause the game to hang. The music continues to play though. Maybe related to what Hybrid Divide was experiencing? https://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php?topic=27890.msg375416#msg375416
• On the Skill Levels screen, "buton" should be "button" and the quotation mark on the second "Attack" should be facing left. Not sure if this is due to a mod or not.
• We haven't been able to get Equip 2nd Weapon or QuickSpell Hotkeys to work after following the instructions. Is there a way to tell if it's enabled?
• There is a slight pause when the music changes despite Async Music Crossfade being enabled. I'm not sure if it's due to the emulator or the mod though.

Excluding those, everything else has been great! The patcher was so easy to use and there are so many improvements to the game compared to playing the vanilla version that I'm really hoping a Trials of Mana Turbo happens someday!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190624
Post by: Queue on June 27, 2019, 03:49:16 am
Quote from: Eids
I recently started playing it with a friend and it's been a ton of fun so far with how fast-paced it is!
Glad to hear it. "Fun" is pretty much my only objective with this so it's reassuring when I'm not the only one who thinks it's fun.
Quote from: Eids
(Running on bsnes-hd beta7 with SoM Turbo.190611)
{1}• We couldn't find an exit after entering the goblin village. The map just loops around endlessly so we got stuck there.
{2}• Pausing can cause the game to hang. The music continues to play though. Maybe related to what Hybrid Divide was experiencing? https://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php?topic=27890.msg375416#msg375416
{3}• On the Skill Levels screen, "buton" should be "button" and the quotation mark on the second "Attack" should be facing left. Not sure if this is due to a mod or not.
{4}• We haven't been able to get Equip 2nd Weapon or QuickSpell Hotkeys to work after following the instructions. Is there a way to tell if it's enabled?
{5}• There is a slight pause when the music changes despite Async Music Crossfade being enabled. I'm not sure if it's due to the emulator or the mod though.
{1} The exit is the far upper left or right, walking into the trees; like, go far north until you hit a solid wall of trees, then go straight east or west into the trees and you'll leave. I know this isn't super obvious, but it's the same way the girl enters and leaves that location during the Goblin Stew cutscene, so was hoping that was enough of a clue. Evidently, not quite (also, you can miss that cutscene).
{2} This has been a head-scratcher for me. I've tested on every emulator that crossed my mind (off the top of my head, definitely bsnes-hd beta6, ZSNES 1.51, Snse9X 1.51, plus some newer version of Snes9X, whatever's bundled with BizHawk... at least two more that I can't name from memory) and on an SNESCE (aka Mini) and never had the PAUSE mess up. I have not personally tested on a real SNES or a Super Nt. While I'm doing some slightly weird things (mainly to unpause), it should all be by-the-book, but clearly it's failing under some circumstances. Is there some situation, like a specific location, where it messes up? Does it happen every time, sometimes, rarely? If I can get a reproducible scenario I'd be able to figure it out.
{3} Those are typos from Relocalized.
{4} For the 2nd weapon, in the ring menu on the weapon ring, if you have the cursor over a weapon and hold 'R' there should be a sound. For the spell hotkeys, if you're not in a menu, and press 'L' you should get a blinky icon over your character. Those'd be the two most straightforward ways to check.
{5} Yeah, it's just not perfect. While I removed the long pause waiting for the previous song to fade out, there's still a potential pause when the new song is uploaded to the sound CPU. I may be able to smooth that out too, but needed a break from working on it. If using MSU-1 music, since there's no time spent uploading song data, the transition is completely pause-less.

Quote from: Eids
Trials of Mana, Turbo?
Not especially likely. While I think it's a neat game, it doesn't have a special place in my heart like this game does, and I just work on projects like this as suits my fancy. More than likely my next project after this will not be SNES-related.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190624
Post by: GrimVandal on June 28, 2019, 05:14:18 am
Great updates, thank you so much.


Does anybody know if there is a emulator which can lower the frames to 50 fps?
(to mimic a slower pal version)?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190708
Post by: Queue on July 02, 2019, 02:29:57 am
Version 2019-07-01:
https://ufile.io/hbqrrpxn (https://ufile.io/hbqrrpxn)


Changes:
- Added Miscellaneous\Day_Night_Cycle
- Moved Bug_Fixes\Missable_Spear_Fix event flag from 06 to 09 (value = 3)




Version 2019-07-08:
https://ufile.io/ijzvyadj (https://ufile.io/ijzvyadj)

Changes:
- Verified and incremented Kethinov's "Early Luna" patch version number from 1.2 to 1.3
- Verified and incremented Kethinov's "Level 9 Weapons Progression Balance" patch version number from 1.4 to 1.5
- Small adjustment for NGI SRAM code (unimportant, just documenting it)
- Tidy map treatment given to the Great Forest / Upper Land / forest path to Matango
- Updated Miscellaneous\Day_Night_Cycle with new features and bugfixes

Day / Night Cycle Changes:
- Fix for time saving / loading
- Fix for NPC visibilty event use of time event flags
- Modified event command 33 to allow recalculating time (use 33 FFFF)
- Slight change to which hours correspond to which time of day (simplifies visibility events)
- Made sleeping at an inn advance time
- Implemented glowing windows in towns (similar to Trials of Mana)
- Preliminary time of day stuff related to riding Flammie
- Modified some townsfolk to only be outdoors at certain times of day, side effect: performance improvement

Still to do:
- Flammie and Cannon Travel visuals
- More townsfolk behavior
- More visual junk in general
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190714
Post by: Queue on July 14, 2019, 08:08:33 pm
Version 2019-07-14:
https://ufile.io/i4lqe7ap (https://ufile.io/i4lqe7ap)

Changes:
- Verified and incremented Kethinov's "More Useful Evil Gate" patch version number from 1.0 to 1.1
- One more Great Forest (Autumn) tidy map tweak for its northwest area transition
- Tidy map treatment for the Sprite Village
- Added Quality_of_Life\Run_On_Trigger_Tiles, you will no longer stumble over invisible bear traps when trying to run
- Added Graphics\Alternate_Text_Boxes (and _Candy_Cane), if you don't like the new text box backgrounds, turn this feature off; it's meant to add variety, but I can understand if you want one of the vanilla backgrounds (I did test these on various monitors / TVs, and with various video filters in various emulators to try and make some that are useful for a variety of circumstances, but this is a very personal preference sort of thing); it also tweaks 3 text box border options, so be sure to weigh your options
- Minor improvement to Miscellaneous\New_Game_Plus, properly reset the Mana Fortress and Sunken Continent (only occurs when triggering the restart so existing NG+ saves won't benefit)
- Improvements to Miscellaneous\Day_Night_Cycle, detailed below

Day Night Cycle Changes:
- Kethinov, thank you for the feedback!
- Added lighting-based palette modification to the player stamina recharge flashing animation
- Sleeping at an inn when it's evening or night will always advance time to (at least) morning
- When changing areas, if a timezone change would cause the time of day to become earlier (day -> morning, night -> evening, etc.), instead time will advance forward to keep time of day intuitive; this causes occasional passage of time, but only when necessary
- The Ice Country Tropics event will no longer be able to go from day to morning when freeing Salamando

Technical Changes:
- Clarified the "-" feature marker to mean "Compatibility fixups present" (regardless of who authored the fixups)
- Added searchable "compat" comments to the ZPS file
- Sweeping internal ZPS file changes to support event script command mnemonics and human-readable text entry; example:
RAW   9D8F8D85808281838B80898E80948885808D8F928E898E87BF
is now
TEXT   ^C o m e _ b a c k _ i n _ t h e _ m o r n i n g .
Much more pleasant to edit... (have to put spaces between letters, but it's a small price to pay)
- Added event script command mnemonics for every command I understood; examples:
00 = \end
03 = \gather
2D03 = \shake_horizontal
40F1000000 = \music_stop
- Added event commands 1F05 (hide_fortress and sunken continent), 3F?? (relative jump), 70?? (relative jump, when not in text mode)



Known Issue:
- Can't start a New Game Plus; the event breaks part way through; already fixed for next release
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190714
Post by: ShockwaveS08 on July 16, 2019, 11:52:16 am
First off, I wanted to say that this ZPS compilation is freaking awesome! Since I'm not the kind of player who "politely waits his turn to die", as it were, all of these gameplay refinements and improvements serve to make combat fast and fluid, unlike the slower-paced nature of the vanilla game. I do have a few suggestions I would like to make.

1) The way that the Manual Block functions right now seems a bit OP, since it completely negates incoming melee damage with no drawbacks, since you can maintain the block indefinitely. If there's a way you can implement a "blocking strength" meter, indicated by a shield icon and reusing the redesigned charge meter, it would help to ensure that there is at least some skill involved with blocking. (i.e. the stronger the blow, the more the meter depletes, until the currently-controlled character is knocked on their back, and will have to actually start moving to avoid getting hit until he/she has enough stamina to block again.) I'm sure there's a few character stats that would influence the block meter, too. (i.e. Strength and Defense will allow you to absorb more hits without collapsing, and/or being able to take a stronger hit and still have some blocking strength left over. The characters' current weapon would also have certain "hidden stats" that would influence blocking likewise, for example, a spear would be more useful for blocking than the fists or whip.)

2) The "TURBO" in the title screen logo only appears when either B or START are pressed to enter the New/Load Game screen. Perhaps have it show up either during or after the opening credits?

3) The current implementation of the Day/Night Cycle also happens to affect the HUD and UI, due to the palette changes to allow for sunrise, sunset, and night, making certain elements hard to see. If there is a way to make the HUD and UI sprites exempt from the palette changes, it would help improve visibility at all times of day.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190714
Post by: Mr X on July 17, 2019, 06:42:48 am
Question: in Easier or Harder Monster how do I adjust it like for example I want to earn less exp then the deafult that was set in there to make things more challenging.

Thanks in advance
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190718
Post by: Queue on July 18, 2019, 05:45:43 pm
Version 2019-07-18:
https://ufile.io/tgvqqyca (https://ufile.io/tgvqqyca)

Changes:
- Fixed being able to start a New Game Plus (I accidentally broke this last version)
- Added Graphics\Functional_Fashion: head/body/hand armor affects the color scheme of the characters. A few garish results, but mostly pretty spiffy.
- Improved Miscellaneous\Day_Night_Cycle: world map (cannon / flight) time of day lighting changes as you travel east / west. Going to the world map prevents time advancing; not sure if this behavior will stay, but it makes world map lighting more logically consistent with what you see on the ground. The sky is currently not affected, but I intend to get to that next (sky coloring depends on what direction you're facing as well as your position, so setting it up is more complex than the ground which only cares about your position).

Technical Changes:
- Events 1F03 and 1F04 (and the new 1F05) have vanilla behavior of showing a cutscene if followed by an end event command (00) like they are in the vanilla event scripts that use them. If they're followed by anything other than 00, they do not show a cutscene and do the following: 1F03 shows the sunken continent ($7E00E3 | #80), 1F04 shows the mana fortress ($7E00E3 | #40), 1F05 hides both ($7E00E3 = #00). Example:
1F05 1F03 01 00 (hide both without cutscene, show sunken continent without cutscene, nop, end)



ShockwaveS08
1) Changing Manual Block is low on my list of priorities (the topic has come up before as well). I do agree that it's too good, but it does have one significant drawback that seems to be repeatedly overlooked: you can't do anything else while blocking (and there's a little delay when you stop blocking before you can act as well). I don't really care if you can turtle forever if you also can't do anything while you are. While I may eventually add some sort of cooldown after a successful block (the primary option I've been considering), or some form of stamina or health to the blocking, it currently works well enough that I'd rather spend my time working on other things that are incomplete, fun to work on, etc. Your brainstorming is appreciated though and all it takes is for someone to suggest something that piques my interest to get me to take a stab at it.

2) The Turbo logo appears after a certain amount of time; if you saw it after pressing a button, it was either coincidental timing, or some really crazy behavior that I'm unaware of. I don't consider it very important, just a fun thing that pops in if you sit through the opening.

3) Day_Night_Cycle should only affect the character faces in the HUD / UI (because those faces pull straight from the same graphics data as the character sprites you drive around and share palette entries with them). I should be able to force the characters to their vanilla palettes when you open a ring menu (which will also serve to highlight them at night, etc.), and I imagine that'll deal with the primary lack of visibility you're referring to (like the little mini faces on currently equipped armor / weapons, which share their palette with the main character sprites).



Mr X, if you enable Balance\Easier_or_Harder_Monsters, then open the "Advanced Options" menu (by clicking on the "Advanced..." button), then change the value beside Enemy_XP_Scalar and / or Boss_XP_Scalar you can increase or decrease the experience rewarded. The defaults are 2 (which means double the vanilla amount rewarded); you probably want something like D (meaning 50% experience rewarded).

The following table has the values you can set and what they mean:
Code: [Select]
0 =       0.0% (×0)
 1 = 100.0% (×1, Vanilla)
 2 = 200.0% (×2, Default)
 3 = 300.0% (×3)
 4 = 400.0% (×4)
 5 = 500.0% (×5)
 6 = 600.0% (×6)
 7 = 700.0% (×7)
 8 = Maximum (65535)
 9 = 150.0% (׳∕₂)
 A =   12.5% (÷8)
 B =   25.0% (÷4)
 C =   33.3% (÷3)
 D =   50.0% (÷2)
 E =   66.7% (ײ∕₃)
 F =   75.0% (×¾)

So values A through F reduce the experience rewarded. If you want to get half the vanilla amount of experience per kill, you'd use D. This table is also viewable in the description for Balance\Easier_or_Harder_Monsters in the ZPS Patcher (you can scroll down in the description).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190718
Post by: pleasejust on July 19, 2019, 12:31:40 am
"The hosting period for this file has now expired, only premium users can download it."

gdrive? dropbox?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190718
Post by: ShockwaveS08 on July 21, 2019, 02:07:05 pm
Just gave the new beta a try, and I've cobbled together a small list of bugs and feature suggestions.

This list assumes the default ZPS settings are active.

Bug 1: In the Kingdom of Pandora's throne room, talking to the King for the first time will cause him to walk into the left-side wall instead of going to his quarters, resulting in him and the Queen spontaneously disappearing from view. Thankfully, they are very much alive, if not exactly well (story-wise), when you enter the King's Quarters.

Bug 2: On occasion, sleeping at an Inn will result in the player characters' "sleeping" sprites being misaligned to the left, about 5-10 pixels, making it appear as if everything from the chest up has literally detached from the rest of their bodies.

Bug(?) 3: Whenever the music changes (no MSU-1 involved), the game hitches slightly as it loads the next track. Is this normal behavior or a glitch?

Bug 4: When all player characters are KIA simultaneously, you get two text-boxes' worth of dialogue that I can only assume are from a later portion of the game, instead of the usual "they were never heard from again" spiel, softlocking the game at the same time, preventing the player from returning to the title screen unless they reset their console or emulator. I'd file this one as a code-red, major priority.

Suggestion 1: Assuming Functional Fashion is enabled, is there a possibility of the Save Game/Load Game/Status/Action Grid menus showing the appropriate colors of the player character's standing sprites? Seems odd to leave their sprites the default colors when the player's equipment could better-differentiate separate savegames...

Suggestion 2: Assuming the Quick Magic menu is enabled, and only one controller is plugged in, is it possible to pause the action to allow enough time to select usable spells, rather than Player 1 getting clobbered due to standing still the whole time the menu is up? Obviously, the pausing wouldn't occur if Players 2 and 3 are connected.

Suggestion 3: If Better CPU Allies is enabled, is it possible to remove the Action Grid option from the main circular menu, since it is no longer needed?

Suggestion 4: Can a separate minihack be made, which reverses the direction of menu rotation when using Left/Right on the D-Pad? Slightly disorienting to having the input directions reversed in the vanilla game.

Suggestion 5: Is it possible to offer users the option to give the player characters their official names (Randi, Primm, and Popoi), either as a default, or as a secondary button press on the Character Name Screen to override any typed name with the official one?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190718
Post by: lexluthermiester on July 23, 2019, 06:04:48 am
"The hosting period for this file has now expired, only premium users can download it."

gdrive? dropbox?
Had no problems here.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190723
Post by: Queue on July 23, 2019, 08:53:49 pm
Version 2019-07-23:
https://ufile.io/cnatffrd (https://ufile.io/cnatffrd)

Changes:
- Added Miscellaneous\Centered_Inn_Bed, which tucks you into bed most expertly
- Added Bug_Fixes\King_Goes_To_Bed, which fixes an event issue with the king of Pandora, queen of Pandora and Jema fighting over who is number 4, 5 and 6
- Tweaks to Bug_Fixes\Mode_7_Rendering_Fix to deal with some slight visual oddities on the horizon and far bottom edge of screen
- Improved Miscellaneous\Day_Night_Cycle to use vanilla colors for the players when paused (ring menu)
- Graphics\Functional_Fashion now includes a one pixel fixup on the ring menu mini face for the girl (hair ribbon color)

Technical Changes:
- Fixed incorrect \stats1_* mnemonics
- Added event command 3D which lets you set the first 256 bytes of actor data
- Added additional functionality to event command 2B to let you align an actor to the event target actor on the X or Y axis



pleasejust, I use uploadfiles.io because it's convenient for me (no login required) and specifically because the files become unavailable after 7 days (to prompt myself to try and get a release out at least once a week). If you're seeing the expired file message, you either clicked on the wrong file link, I haven't uploaded a new version within 7 days, or something is wrong.



ShockwaveS08, thanks for all the feedback. I'll itemize responses (and type too much).

B1) Fixed it. NPCs are numbered as they load, and in the throne room when Jema's there, he's #4, king is #5, queen is #6. Jema's event where he leaves the room issues movement commands to NPC #4 (which he is) and he walks south then despawns. The king's "nap" event issues movement commands to NPCs #4 and #5. If Jema was in the room, he got NPC slot #4, so it messes up the "nap" event unless you leave and re-enter the room (in which case the king and queen wind up as NPCs #4 and #5 because Jema's gone). I fixed this by reordering them so the king is always #4, queen is always #5, and Jema is #6, and changed Jema's event to issue its commands to NPC #6. This should always work because the king and queen will never leave before Jema.

B2) By crazy coincidence I worked on this before the weekend, sooo, there, it's done. This was actually rather complicated to deal with as the vanilla event system doesn't have a good means of accurately positioning actors (players included) aside from sending you through a "door" to change areas (which is unsuitable for the inn event). I had to program in two new event system features to let me align the player with the inn keeper, and make the player walk at one pixel per frame (vanilla events only move actors two pixels at a time). I also had to slightly adjust the art for the common beds (the patchwork blanket ones) to make the bedding start at roughly the same spot on each type of bed (unlikely anyone can spot this change without comparing screenshots).

B3) Not a bug, just the current "as good as it gets" situation for how the game sends music data to the SNES's sound CPU. Vanilla, when the song changes, the game locks up for both the fade out duration of the previous song and while it uploads the new song data to the sound CPU. With Audio\_Async_Music_Crossfade, you don't have to wait while the previous song fades out, but there's still a pause while the new song is uploaded. It's something I'd like to improve in the future but I needed a break from working on audio code.

B4) I couldn't reproduce this. That does count as a critical issue I'd fix, but I had party wipes without it happening. Need a reproducible scenario to get this figured out.

S1) Iffy. Save and Load screens don't show the characters, so I'd have to implement that, and for the load screen, also dig around in the save data to get character equipment (normally I pull it from their already loaded character data). I probably will for the status and action grid screens, but it's a low priority, so hasn't happened (need to figure out when those screens load character palette data, where they load it to, and if I can reuse some of my palette filtering code or if it'll require its own variation to work).

S2) Erm, I don't mean to sound too churlish, but, uhhhh, you can just pause and cast spells from the ring menu when you need to pause to cast spells. The whole point of the quick casting menu is that the game doesn't pause.

S3) Probably. That's a good idea; if I can figure out how, I'll do that.

S4) Also probably. Remember that different ring menus have the selection box at the top or bottom of the ring (e.g. merchant ring) that can make rotation direction non-intuitive in different ways from the most typical pause ring menu.

S5) I can imagine its possible, and it has been suggested before, but unfortunately I'm the wrong person to ask as I have zero interest in implementing it.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190718
Post by: mkwong98 on July 24, 2019, 02:30:59 am
ShockwaveS08
1) Changing Manual Block is low on my list of priorities (the topic has come up before as well). I do agree that it's too good, but it does have one significant drawback that seems to be repeatedly overlooked: you can't do anything else while blocking (and there's a little delay when you stop blocking before you can act as well). I don't really care if you can turtle forever if you also can't do anything while you are. While I may eventually add some sort of cooldown after a successful block (the primary option I've been considering), or some form of stamina or health to the blocking, it currently works well enough that I'd rather spend my time working on other things that are incomplete, fun to work on, etc. Your brainstorming is appreciated though and all it takes is for someone to suggest something that piques my interest to get me to take a stab at it.

How about after the first blocked attack, any further attacks received while blocking will deal chip damage(1-3)? I think this is not too difficult to implement(doesn't need another gauge) and gives the players a small incentive to avoid abusing it.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190723
Post by: lexluthermiester on July 24, 2019, 03:43:30 am
pleasejust, I use uploadfiles.io because it's convenient for me (no login required) and specifically because the files become unavailable after 7 days (to prompt myself to try and get a release out at least once a week). If you're seeing the expired file message, you either clicked on the wrong file link, I haven't uploaded a new version within 7 days, or something is wrong.
This will be just my opinion, but this project seems passed the beta phase, at the least progressed to the point you can post it as a download in the main hacks section. Maybe post a milestone version, but continue here in this thread with incremental updates, updating the main page with stable versions.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190723
Post by: ShockwaveS08 on July 24, 2019, 10:07:04 am
Found another bug, regarding "Power Attacks" (any direction + Attack): You can use Randi's sword to repeatedly "lunge" your way across impassable slopes to get to unintended sequence-breaks such as...

1) Getting across the obsidian "slope" in the middle of the Fire Temple, even though it serves no benefit, as you'll still need Salamander to progress further in the temple.

2) Lunging your way all the way to the Northeast Desert to get to Charon and the Lunar Temple far earlier than you're supposed to.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190723
Post by: kethinov on July 24, 2019, 10:15:41 am
That particular bug was in the original game and many of us no longer consider it a bug. I actually worked the mechanics of it into my "Early Luna" hack and wrote dialog for a NPC in Kakkara telling you how to exploit this "bug" to get Luna early: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4062/
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190723
Post by: ShockwaveS08 on July 25, 2019, 10:17:42 am
Another bug found, and two more suggestions for you.

B1: If your currently-controlled character is set ablaze when using Jinn's Analyze magic on an Orb, the description saying that "___'s magic will work on this!" can no longer be skipped with the attack button, thereby softlocking the game, as you are unable to switch characters during a dialogue box, leaving the burning character immune to damage (even from the Ablaze status effect), yet his/her/its allies can still attack and be damaged. To reproduce the bug, your current character must be ablaze by the time the Analyze animation finishes, and can currently be remedied by switching to another player character who's not flailing around from immolation before the dialogue box pops up. If all three characters are on fire, well, I don't know what to tell you. This bug was encountered when exploring the Fire Temple with Salamander in-hand.

S1: Given how you can equip two weapons per character, perhaps there could be a way to repurpose the "Player 1/2" number that usually appears on the main HUD and place them next to the "tiny head" icon of the character currently-wielding that weapon; I will be using "@" as an example for Randi. Say, he's using the Mana Sword as his primary, and the Boomerang as his ranged option - @1 will appear on the sword's icon in the ring menu, while @2 will appear on the boomerang's icon. Same goes for Primm and Popoi's dual-weapon combinations. The only obstacle I foresee in implementing this is a possible sprite-limit/VRAM limit.

S2: Under normal circumstances, it is possible to have Randi use a Magic Walnut or Fairy Coconut on himself for absolutely no effect whatsoever, as he is the only character out of the trio to not use magic. Is there a way to make him exempt from the apply-to-character selection whenever these two items are about to be used, to avoid wasting them in this manner? Also, it is still possible for Randi to buy these items from any Neko Salesman before he even meets Primm and Popoi, and long before Undine's magic is acquired to enable MP for the latter two. The solution would be to implement a check for whether or not a character has MP unlocked, and therefore prevent usage of the Walnut and Coconut on a player character if he/she/it doesn't meet this requirement.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190723
Post by: Queue on July 25, 2019, 03:13:19 pm
lexluthermiester, I don't really disagree, but when I submit to RHDN that will likely be my last update. This project has already run on for probably double the time I originally planned to give it. By not officially submitting I can keep goading myself into continuing ("the download will break in a week, what can I manage before a week passes" vs "okay, download will last forever, I could do X, but I could also do it tomorrow" and then tomorrow never comes).

By the way, I have appreciated your encouragement. I didn't reply to your previous post(s) because I try to limit myself to only respond to things that require it (so like, if others discuss something in the thread and it's resolved before I read it, I don't add an unnecessary post just because, even if I'm happy with the outcome, etc.); probably makes it seem like I'm ignoring certain people when I'm not, but oh well.



ShockwaveS08, regarding sequence breaks, unless they make you unable to finish a game, I consider them beneficial. Of the two you mention, 1) allows you to get a weapon orb a little early, 2) is totally harmless (and the "Early Luna" hack relies on that behavior).

B1) Great find. After testing, it also causes a soft lock when frostied, petrified or ballooned. I'm sure I can figure out a fix for this.

S1) Timbo, the author of Relocalized, also really really wants this. I've looked into it some in the past, and it's far more complicated than it appears at first glance. Ignoring the technical challenge of adding more little faces, don't forget that more than one person can have the same secondary weapon, or even have it assigned to a weapon another character has equipped. For example, I often set all three characters to have the whip as their secondary so I can quickly "swap, whip post, swap" without changing characters. If I ever implement custom drawing in the ring menu, I'd likely have to consider all three faces stacked along the bottom of a weapon (plus some means of identifying that it's their secondary). Ultimately, this one is just super unimportant: tons of work for a trivial aesthetic convenience. If I had infinite time I might pursue it, but what time I already burned on it wasn't fruitful. The quick spell system would also benefit as I could put, say, little arrows in the spell corners to indicate where they're bound, but again, non-trivial.

S2) This would be a good quality of life improvement; I can probably work something out.



Edit: I figured out the issue with text boxes not accepting button input while incapacitated, deciding which of the many ways to fix it I'm going to go with, but it's as good as fixed.

The root of the problem is that when a text box opens it decides if it should take over input of the lead character's controller, and it was deciding not to if the character was burning, frostied, etc. because it thought the character wasn't human-controlled because those status effects clear the player controller number temporarily. A secondary problem was that those status effects keep clearing input, which the text boxes could otherwise still react to even when the text box doesn't take exclusive input control. A tertiary problem is those status effects don't fade while you're in a text box. I basically worked my way backwards through those issues.

Possible fixes include:
- Letting status effects fade while in a text box (seemed to have horrible animation side effects, scrapped this approach).
- Letting some / all input remain even while under those status effects (minor side effects, like entering a sprint as soon as you thaw, etc. and other combat code interferes, such as attack code eating the B button presses).
- Not clearing the controller number when afflicted (this one has minor side effects, like letting you switch characters while burning, etc. but also potentially fixes other code that doesn't check the "saved" controller number values).
- Modifying text box startup code to also check the "saved" controller number value.

I'm probably going with that final option as it doesn't appear to have any side effects, but the second-to-last may be useful info to keep tucked away; probably going to lead to improving other code that tries to check if a character is player / AI controlled.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190723
Post by: lexluthermiester on July 27, 2019, 03:34:44 am
lexluthermiester, I don't really disagree, but when I submit to RHDN that will likely be my last update. This project has already run on for probably double the time I originally planned to give it. By not officially submitting I can keep goading myself into continuing ("the download will break in a week, what can I manage before a week passes" vs "okay, download will last forever, I could do X, but I could also do it tomorrow" and then tomorrow never comes).
That makes sense. There is so much more that could be imagined with what you've been doing that it's easy to envision the project progressing for a year or more. It seems likely that anyone who's been following this knows that it's gone beyond the scope of what you originally had planned, and on behalf of everyone who has or will use this very cool project, Thank You! It's been a lot of fun to see how SOM has been reshaped and remolded. Good stuff! I'm betting Zhade's been watching with interest to see developments as they progress, and we can't offer gratitude without including him, so Zhade, Thank You as well!  :beer:

By the way, I have appreciated your encouragement. I didn't reply to your previous post(s) because I try to limit myself to only respond to things that require it (so like, if others discuss something in the thread and it's resolved before I read it, I don't add an unnecessary post just because, even if I'm happy with the outcome, etc.); probably makes it seem like I'm ignoring certain people when I'm not, but oh well.
YW! It did not come off that way at all. In fact, to me, it came off exactly as you just stated, like you were focusing on the project. No worries.  :thumbsup:

Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190723
Post by: Mr X on July 27, 2019, 07:10:48 am
It would be nice if at some point there will be some modification to the level 9 weapon to make them stand out more besides just having the highest attack. Like what does it meant be an ultimate weapon, or is it simply because of a higher attack power?

Like there isn't much that can be done but one idea I had in mind is have have like one or two of them have faster charge time for special attacks. Like the Glove and Boomerang would be good picks for that, they are meant imo if you think about it.

Another one have another one's attack power be based on another stat.

Or have them with elemental attributes but no status infliction on the enemy.

Or raise the attack power of another weapon more but slower charge time.

But these may be very hard to do, elemental attributes may be the safest bet perhaps. Most monsters in mana fortress are weak to light or dark so it should probably center around those two elements mostly.

Or make it so some of these effects these weapons can obtain after they reach level 8:99 to make it more relevant. Make some charge attacks perform randomly once that level is reached without the need to charge, kind of like a luck thing as crit rate would be.

Just my general thoughts on the matter of level 9 weapons, would be nice to add even if something extra to them besides just higher attack power.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190723
Post by: G30FF on July 27, 2019, 06:06:36 pm
Sorry if this has already been asked, or if this is just a dumb question, but I can't get the ZPS patcher to work, whether I run ZPS_Patcher.exe itself, or ZPS_Helper.bat. I already have to turn off Norton in order to get it to run, because it flags ZPS_Patcher.exe as untrusted and deletes the exe every time I try to run it. But no matter which of those I run, I can't get the tool to open.

EDIT: Windows Defender also flags ZPS_Patcher.exe as a virus and won't let it run.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190728
Post by: Queue on July 28, 2019, 04:03:44 pm
Version 2019-07-28:
https://ufile.io/c62r5k3v (https://ufile.io/c62r5k3v)

Changes:
- Added Magic\HP_Absorb_-_Reversible; ghosts also invert energy absorb (to match magic absorb behavior with Kethinov's "Reverse MP Absorb on Evil and Undead Monsters")
- Improved Quality_of_Life\CPUs_Dont_Block_Screen and Quality_of_Life\Walk_To_Edges_Of_Screen; minor optimizations and dealing with erroneous status afflicted player behavior
- Added warnings to Scroll_Hack and Centered_Camera descriptions; seriously, these aren't especially safe to use without Walk_To_Edges_Of_Screen
- Made a second pass on tidy map improvements to the Cannon Travel screen; it was one of the first I did and I've learned a lot about editing maps since then, so was able to clean it up without compromise
- Rewrote Bug_Fixes\Auto_Talk_Fix and Bug_Fixes\Permadeath_Fix to fit within vanilla ROM space
- Combat\Better_CPU_Allies now hides the Action Grid icon from the options ring menu
- Circular Forging now costs 50000 GP for a reset instead of 65535
- Miscellaneous\Day_Night_Cycle now includes simple water palette animation to try and disguise static coastline water
- Bug_Fixes\Dialog_Debuffs prevents getting stuck when afflicted by a status effect and a dialog box opens
- Bug_Fixes\Equipment_Trashing_Fix prevents memory corruption when trashing currently equipped equipment, probably (this one was complicated, but I think I got it)
- Bug_Fixes\No_Blats_To_Sell prevents lots of inventory issues involving corrupted items, also lets you sell consumable items when you have zero equipment



G30FF, I don't know what to tell you. Windows Defender doesn't flip out at me over any of the files. Submitting the executable to one of those sites that scans a file with a bunch of virus scanners also shows no bad results (other than the generic "this file isn't well known" warnings).

mkwong98, also a potential option. It all hinges on if I ever get to modifying Manual Blocking behavior.

Mr X, yeah, the level 9 weapons actually totally suck in the vanilla game. The level 9 axe is even objectively weaker than the level 8 axe. I made Circular_Forging so I can reset my weapons and go back to ones I actually like. I have a hard time committing to item stat changes; for some irrational reason I consider those more sacred than, say, combat mechanics or spell behavior (probably because I enjoy figuring out weird item mixes to use in games rather than the game prescribed "best" items when possible, and changing item stats diminishes that). On one hand, I do agree that they could use a reason to be worth using, on the other, I don't like the people who use the sword with the biggest number on it even if it's worse than the sword with not the biggest number on it, so I don't want to enable them. I'll think on it; maybe I can come up with something with suitable drawbacks where it makes them special, but someone may still want to use a "lesser" weapon instead.

lexluthermiester, it's easy to overlook just how important zhaDe's work has been for this project. His New Gameplay Improvement modifications to the game are super and a great foundation to have built on, but it's his patcher and patch format that really made all of this possible. While it's weird, has an atypical SNES 65816 assembly syntax (which I'd argue is superior to the standard), lots of odd constraints, clunky conditional support, no pre-processed math capability, and only a Windows .NET executable, it is amazingly powerful and enabling for me to develop in. It would have taken much longer, I can't even calculate how long, to make the same stuff without the ZPS format. It lets me create, modify and iterate very quickly and with no risk of losing work (like when I'm hammering out changes to the game directly in an SNES debugger). It also lets the end user pick which features they want on and off so I don't have to provide a pile of IPS files to suit the whims of people with terrible taste.

ShockwaveS08, I didn't get in the Fairie Walnut / Coconut item use protection yet; I know what it would take but didn't figure out how I wanted to implement it yet. No inverted ring rotation either yet. I did get in the Action Grid icon hiding, though it was trickier than I was expecting. If it had been the last icon in that ring menu, it'd have been easy, but it was the 5th of 7, so I had to first rearrange them so it was 7th, THEN I could lop it off the end, then I had to fix up the controller edit button recoloring code to account for the menu numbers changing. Hopefully there are no other side effects to that.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190728
Post by: G30FF on July 28, 2019, 05:09:53 pm
It's only when I try to actually run the EXE that it flags it as a threat. If I scan it with Norton or Windows Defender, it shows up clean. For some reason, antiviruses only seem to treat it as a threat when I run it. It's unusual. It may very well be a false positive, lord knows it wouldn't be the first patching tool I've tested that was flagged by antivirus. Thanks for checking on it, I just wanted to share in case anyone else had an issue!

I told Windows Defender to ignore the threat, ran the patcher, and quick scanned my computer afterwards. It reports clean. It's probably a false positive, but I admit this isn't very scientific, and I can't be 100% positive about it being safe.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190728
Post by: Queue on July 28, 2019, 11:11:19 pm
It's .NET-based, so you can rip it open with a utility such as https://github.com/icsharpcode/ILSpy and read through its programming. It's not my place to claim it's safe; you should always rely on a third-party (e.g. not me, who has uploaded it) opinion when dealing with executable code from the internet, so I don't begrudge you being cautious. I am pretty sure the virus scanners are not a reliable third-party in this case.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190728
Post by: Chicken Knife on July 28, 2019, 11:31:05 pm
Played with this for the first time tonight and I'm absolutely dumbfounded by how well all these new elements work together. Thanks for taking on this beast of a project and managing it so successfully.

The only thing that strikes me as a little odd or non-intuitive, especially after having just played a ton of Seiken Densetsu 3, is with the day / night cycle. Would it be too much to ask to have the inn keepers ask you whether you want to sleep until morning or evening?

**EDIT

I'm at the dwarven town and encountered something that could possibly be a bug. Attempted to purchase more than one power armlet accessory and the game is only allowing me to have a total of 1 in my inventory and / or equipped.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190728
Post by: G30FF on July 29, 2019, 12:37:22 am
Fair enough. On that subject, just want to say, excellent work so far! Getting all these patches to play nice with each other is no small feat! I'm looking forward to the final official release!
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190728
Post by: ShockwaveS08 on July 29, 2019, 09:59:30 am
I'm at the dwarven town and encountered something that could possibly be a bug. Attempted to purchase more than one power armlet accessory and the game is only allowing me to have a total of 1 in my inventory and / or equipped.

That's because Unique Equipment is enabled in the patch. You can run the ZPS Patcher and make sure it's unchecked before you make a fresh Turbo ROM; there's all sorts of other options to tailor the game to your playstyle.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190728
Post by: Chicken Knife on July 29, 2019, 11:43:48 am
Ah thanks for pointing out that option. I did spend 20 minutes reading the list before applying the patches and the sheer scope of it makes me unsurprised that I missed something. I'm a little curious why someone would want to limit accessories to one per but ultimately, who cares? I can turn it off.

I'm very excited to see what was done with magic--hopefully tonight I'll get a taste for that. Having to level up spells, particularly in the mid to late game, was always the thing I hated most about the original. Reminds me way too much of FF2.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190728
Post by: ShockwaveS08 on July 29, 2019, 01:47:15 pm
I seem to be running into way more framerate issues with the new version of Turbo. Running the game via the SNES9x app on my phone, and the constantly-dropped frames are making me wonder if it's either the emulator or the game itself is acting wonky. Booting up other games goes fine enough, everything's still smooth as silk.

I think the problem may be with the Dialog Debuffs code running 100% of the time, instead of only when a character is actively debuffed in an immobilizing manner.


Disregard all of this, as it turned out that my phone's ZArchiver app did a terrible .7z compression job, and that's what's causing the choppiness. For those of you out there that have emulators that accept this type of compressed archive, do it the right way and go with 7-Zip.

July 30, 2019, 10:49:29 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Here's a list of bugs I found while in the general area of Northtown, as well as a few more QOL suggestions.

B1: On your way to confront Dyluck in the Northeast Castle within the Empire, taking the upper-left door at the dungeon entrance will eventually lead to a balcony with three static chests stacked on top of each other, each one containing a Polearm Orb. Only when the third one is obtained do the chest(s) disappear.

B2: The tan eye-spawner within the Northeast Castle is incorrectly referred to as a "gizard Eye". This is the kind that spawns Beholders.

B3: After defeating the Northeast Castle Vampire and watching the cutscene, using the Magic Rope will not send you back to the dungeon entrance, but will instead place you just above the entrance to the balcony on the right, directly across from the triple-chest balcony on the left if you backtrack far enough.

B4: Not sure if it's been mentioned already, but whenever the Safety Pause is performed with the START button, any dialogue box that is onscreen at the time will have its background colors inverted. Happens without fail, regardless of scenario, timing, or window adjustments via the Display Menu.

B5: When adjusting the display window appearance in the Display Menu, and assuming you still have the default window background after all this time, navigate to the left three times with the D-Pad and observe the unsightly grid of light-green 2x2 pixels all across the example window.

B6: Opening the ring menu on the far-right side of the Northtown Inn's first-floor will sometimes cause a short vertical line of red/maroon-hued "garbage pixels" to appear outside the bounds of the area, within the black void. Doesn't happen 100% of the time, but it's quite noticeable when it shows up.

S1: Since I don't have a second controller to test multiplayer with, is there a possibility of assigning the role of co-op tester(s) to someone within this forum thread who has not only two controllers, but someone who is also willing to try and break this hack as much as humanly possible in the name of research, feature-testing, and bug-hunting?

S2: Given how both the Quick Magic menu is mapped to L, and the Manual Blocking to R, it would seem a bit daft to flip the controller upside-down within the Control Settings menu, leaving the rare "southpaw" player in a state of fumbling discomfort as they try to use their pinky-fingers to hit L and R. I suggest removing any mention of "controller-flipping", and/or disabling and hiding the feature outright whenever both Quick Magic and/or Manual Blocking are active, to avoid possible carpal tunnel.

S3: In regards to the Streamlined Turbo HUD, is it possible to display Primm's and Popoi's maximum MP, assuming there's enough VRAM to do so, so instead of reading "MP:07", it'll display "MP:07/22" as an example...unless this stat is capable of going into triple-digits. May need to relocate the MP text directly underneath the appropriate character's portrait on the HUD to conserve space if that is the case.

S4: Whenever in a non-hostile zone (i.e. no weapons drawn, no enemies), is there a way to temporarily hide the Targeting menu within the main circle menu, and then bring it back as soon as the player treads into hostile territory (which is the vast majority of land-coverage, truth be told)? If it can be done, it should also be hidden if there is only one character in the entire party, as there is no way to just put down the controller and let the Combat AI go on autopilot. Similarly, make it visible once more as long as you have 2 or 3 party members available, so you can still direct AI partners towards a high-priority target.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190728
Post by: Queue on July 30, 2019, 07:05:36 pm
Chicken Knife, I intend to do the free inn on Mana Day thing from Trials of Mana as well as the time to sleep prompt. They take some not insignificant event script work though, and the end result is not critical, so it's not on my short list of stuff to get done at the moment.

Unique Equipment is partly because Secret of Mana has so few items, it makes you have to put a little more thought into who uses what rather than always buying 3 of whatever item is "best" at a given time. I'd suggest giving it a chance; lots of otherwise unused equipment (from the already tiny variety) ends up useful when you can't just dress everyone the same.

ShockwaveS08, glad the performance issue wasn't my fault. For the record, Dialog Debuffs can't hit performance; it's a trivial variable check added specifically to code that runs when doing event system stuff (opening text box, etc.), it simply isn't being executed most of the time (and when it does, it costs 4 cycles of CPU time). On the other hand, the changes I made to CPUs Don't Block Screen and Walk To Edges Of Screen are code that's running constantly, so I was worried for a sec until you clarified the issue (though the changes I made should make them more efficient, not less efficient).

B1) Not a bug, that's intended vanilla behavior if you miss weapon orbs; the chest will remain until you've caught up. Not really sure where you'd have missed those orbs, but that's why a weapon orb chest can pay out multiple times.

B2) Will have to check this; maybe a typo in Relocalized? Not really sure why there'd be an enemy name issue.

B3) The Magic Rope sends you to some saved last used door. I don't recall the rules it uses to save a door, but since those balconies lead to the same exterior as the main door, it's not surprising that they can affect the last saved door value (which then affects the Magic Rope). I may be able to work around this specific case but no promises.

B4) Not fixable. The hard pause literally stops all normal game code from running (this is part of what lets you take a save state that will work even if you load it against a drastically changed ROM), including the code that changes the UI palette mid-screen to flip between the text box and HUD colors.

B5) Low priority, but is something I'd like to fix eventually. I've not investigated how the Window Edit screen builds its palette but it's different than the text boxes outside of the Window Edit screen; thankfully stuff looks correct everywhere besides the Window Edit screen.

B6) Will investigate; stuff like this bugs me.

S1) I'd be happy if someone volunteered, but I'm not like, expecting it to be an assigned role?

S2) This is on the user. If they want to flip it they get to deal with the consequences. I've always been baffled that it was a configuration option, but whatever.

S3) It's been requested before. I've not fully scrutinized zhaDe's code that draws the mana display, but at first glance it did not look trivial to extend; if I ever dig into it I want to shove it where the charge gauge appears (not as simple as moving it as the charge gauge is generally drawing blanks that block out anything you try and put there). MP caps at 99.

S4) Not realistic to change. That menu is very hard coded, where order of icons, saved cursor position, the loop that populates that menu, etc. affect how each icon works. Stripping out the Action Grid button was non-trivial and it's not conditionally visible.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190728
Post by: Mr X on August 03, 2019, 07:15:57 am

I'll think on it; maybe I can come up with something with suitable drawbacks where it makes them special, but someone may still want to use a "lesser" weapon instead.



I agree, this should be the premise. Would definitely make more fun to use level 9 weapons and be more worthy than just being in named called "top weapons" or "ultimate weapons" while that being far from the truth, it always bothered me whenever I read that.

And now in Turbo they are even more useless than in vanilla, because the weapons like Excalibur for example actually do extra damage on certain enemies. Having them do something special but with a drawback seems like a good idea.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190728
Post by: Queue on August 04, 2019, 12:54:30 pm
Am out of town for the weekend and what I've done to SoM over the past week is too hard to wrap up remotely to get finished before the last week's download expires, so anyone reading this, make sure to snag the old download within like 8 hours of this post, as there will be a dead period of a day or two before the next release.

I got side-tracked with something neat, but it took like 10 times as much time to do as I expected, so this next release will seem sparse on features, but what I did I sunk over 12(!) hours into this past week... which is nuts, jeez.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190728
Post by: ShockwaveS08 on August 07, 2019, 12:40:09 pm
B1: On very rare occasions, a rampaging AI Randi may cause the vanilla HUD's stamina percentage to flicker beneath his charge gauge for around 1-2 frames, showing as "100%" during that very brief timespan. Possible method of bug reproduction may include switching to either Primm or Popoi, and using the ring menu's Targeting commands to sic Randi on an enemy with an especially-large health pool.

S1: When airborne by proxy of Flammie, is there a way to display the name of the location/town/etc. you are currently hovering above, either in normal flight or overhead-mode? Had a very hard time reaching Mandala shortly after dropping off Truffle back in Matango. Best way to go about this would be to have the game check which coordinates that Flammie is flying above, and have some text appear at the bottom-center of the screen at various spots on the map, to serve as markers for major locations and landmarks.

S2: While we're on the subject of Flammie's capabilities, how feasible would it be to set a waypoint via the globe-view by pressing B to mark a waypoint, and Y to remove it? Is there also a way to increase the vertical scrolling speed of the globe-view when using Up and Down on the D-Pad? Its current implementation seems a bit cumbersome and unwieldy compared to actually flying Flammie around.

S3: Is there a way to display additional stats for armor, besides its base Defense rating, when either purchasing it at a shop, or browsing through your currently-held armors via the ring menu?

S4a: In regards to New Game+, the following things need to be removed from all three characters' inventories, and yet have any relevant stats kept in memory until the respective elements are acquired once again through natural story progression; all weapons, any and all Magic abilities (until you come into posession of the relevant spirits once more), Magic Rope and Wind Drum (so as not to sequence-break by going anywhere and everywhere from the start), the two spells that temporarily raise the Mana Sword to its full power (give the enemies a chance to fight back, at least), let me know if I missed anything.

S4b: Conversely, the things that do need to be kept are as follows; the three character's current names, levels, EXP, armors, Lucre total, and consumable items, as well as any rank progression they might have had in regards to weapons and spells.

Q1: Does vanilla SOM have internal code that allows a third player to join in, with the help of specialized SNES adapters that allow 3-4 players in other games, and if so, how difficult would it be to get it implemented in Turbo?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190728
Post by: vivify93 on August 07, 2019, 04:33:11 pm
Secret of Mana has 3 player by default, yeah. I don't see why Turbo would've deactivated it.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190728
Post by: lexluthermiester on August 07, 2019, 09:32:26 pm
Q1: Does vanilla SOM have internal code that allows a third player to join in, with the help of specialized SNES adapters that allow 3-4 players in other games, and if so, how difficult would it be to get it implemented in Turbo?
With most SNES Emu's(whether on Windows, Mac, Linux, Android or BSD) 4 player mode is supported fully. All you need is a third USB x-input controller, properly mapped, and you're off & running. Player 3 should only need to press Select to jump in.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190808
Post by: Queue on August 08, 2019, 02:44:44 pm
Version 2019-08-08:
https://ufile.io/l9h9dhcx (https://ufile.io/l9h9dhcx)

Changes:
- Slight tweak to Kethinov's "Magical Herb" hack to invalidate targeting dead players (I forgot the "+" symbol in the feature description)
- Quality_of_Life\Boy_Dislikes_Nuts; can no longer use Faerie Walnuts (or Coconuts) on the boy, and before anyone has magic can't use them at all
- Bug_Fixes\Initial_Distance; properly initializes some NPC data, primary result is you can no longer interact with an NPC from long range when they spawn
- Graphics\Polished_Weapons (Whips & Flails); fixes alignment issues on some Whip animations (for example, boy sprinting left / right) and adds a secondary animation set for Flails
- Tidy Map treatment for the final whip room in the Grand Palace; fixes some erroneous stained glass and shadows at the top of the room and provides some escape routes if you try and get stuck using whip post jumps

Technical Changes:
- Added ending credits text roll characters to the character table (it's just limited ascii)
- Minor Combat\Strong_And_Weak_Attacks code reorganization (and elsewhere in &(mods)\Combat)
- Small NOP optimizations here and there
- Fixed a dependency between DEBUG_MODE and Combat\FastNumbers
- Fixed detection of X button by DEBUG_MODE and added support for animation testing (via R+X; 0x000-0x0FF all PCs, 0x100+ boy, 0x200+ girl, etc.)



Polished Weapons (Whips & Flails) took me more than a week to change just a single weapon (though I'm happy with the result). I'm hoping that other weapons will take less time, as some of that was spent on learning and tooling, and on building the infrastructure for custom weapon animations. I had toyed with the Flails having different collision areas for one of their attacks but nothing I tried was both "fun" and side effect free (lots and lots of issues with whip posts).



ShockwaveS08
B1) I think this has to do with which phase in the 5-frame cycle the boy's code runs versus when the UI updates. Something I want to fix because it's sloppy, but will likely take some digging.

S1) Erm, while that would be neat, it would be a massive undertaking. I'll give a longer explanation later (because it's a fun thought experiment).

S2) The waypoint idea would be super useful... it's probably not possible but I've already had a couple thoughts pop into my head on stuff to check as long shots.

S2b) Changing the "globe" scrolling speed is probably not possible; in that view, rotation is fast because it's using SNES hardware graphics rotation to just spin what is already loaded, but scrolling requires rebuilding the entire "globe" image with each movement step. Because you're scrolling in an arbitrary direction, you can't jsut slide what data is there and add onto the end; you have to throw out the old and load a new image based on the new resulting view location.

S3) I'd love to, that's been on my long term to do list since I started on this project. Its absence after 8 months should make clear, very non-trivial to actually do.

S4) Please try what I have before making wild guesses as to what is and isn't necessary for New Game Plus; I've already accounted for most of what you bring up, and generally less destructively than you suggest.

Q1) Like vivify93 and lexluthermiester already brought up, Secret of Mana has always had three player capability. On a real SNES you use the multi-tap in the controller two port (SoM throws an error message if you try to use it in the controller one port); in most emulators you need to have multi-tap emulation enabled and controls defined for controllers 3 (and 1 and 2, obviously) though some emulators do not support 3+ controllers.

Edit:

S1+) Okay, so to add text to the world map (flight), you'd need to:
1) Find space in memory for a font to show text
2) Find a rendering layer that the text could be put on (or letterbox the bottom of the screen like Trials of Mana to switch rendering modes at the bottom of the screen to give access to a needed rendering layer)
3) Create some sort of coordinate system for retrieving place names
4) Populate a table based on that coordinate system with place names
5) Create place names for places not already named somewhere in game data
6) Find somewhere in code where it would be appropriate to do the place name lookup
7) Use the place name to build a tilemap in RAM
8) Find where in code it would be appropriate to update the tilemap in VRAM
9) Find where in code to handle mode switching if necessary

And that's off the top of my head; it would likely be worse than that.

The first issue, space for a font, could easily be a show stopper as I'm not sure how much if any is available. Then finding somewhere (not like, aesthetically, on screen, but literally, in hardware-defined image rendering placement) to put the text may not be realistic depending on what's already in use for showing the horizon, compass, ground and Flammie. Populating the data for locations could take a huge amount of time depending on how thorough you want to be; but even if you kept things minimal it would be no brief chore.

I also looked into some of the Northtown issues you brought up. I was able to reproduce the garbage graphics data on right screen edge indoors issue, but no clue what's causing that; I may poke at it some but there's a distinct chance it's not realistically fixable. My first two experiments with the Magic Rope in the Northtown Ruins issue were a bust (changing aspects of the doors in the hopes of changing when the rope point is set); I have another idea regarding "fixing" it, but it's a little more involved so will need to set some time aside to play with it but I'm pretty sure I have a solution.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190808
Post by: mkwong98 on August 08, 2019, 11:34:52 pm
S2b) Changing the "globe" scrolling speed is probably not possible; in that view, rotation is fast because it's using SNES hardware graphics rotation to just spin what is already loaded, but scrolling requires rebuilding the entire "globe" image with each movement step. Because you're scrolling in an arbitrary direction, you can't jsut slide what data is there and add onto the end; you have to throw out the old and load a new image based on the new resulting view location.

Recently SNES emulators (bsnes, mesen-s) have introduced the overclock function which may help.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190808
Post by: lexluthermiester on August 08, 2019, 11:56:20 pm
Recently SNES emulators (bsnes, mesen-s) have introduced the overclock function which may help.
Unfortunately many others do not. Most actually.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190808
Post by: Chicken Knife on August 10, 2019, 09:22:35 pm
A small request! I've done some playing with an aggressive selection of included hacks but given the way I am, I've shifted gears to building a conservatively tweaked version of the game with all the bug fixes and a few conveniences that don't alter the game much. The fact I can do this with your project is absolutely wonderful. One of the conveniences I'm using is the change directions while running hack. Since I'm still using the stamina system for combat, running continues to trigger stamina use which makes me have to wait at times before dashing or wait to attack after dashing. I think it would be great to have an option to make dashing not effect the stamina guage at all, just like in Trials of Mana.

**EDIT

Strange issue: when cycling through the rings, the item rings are not coming up even though the weapon and config menu rings are coming up just fine. I applied the option to store up to 9 items as well as the boy not taking nuts.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190811
Post by: Queue on August 11, 2019, 02:53:08 pm
Quote from: Chicken Knife
A small request!
It looks like it'll be a 4-byte change to make running not check stamina before activating, plus the 3-byte change to make it not cost stamina. So yeah, that'll be in the next release.
Quote from: Chicken Knife
Strange issue: when cycling through the rings, the item rings are not coming up even though the weapon and config menu rings are coming up just fine. I applied the option to store up to 9 items as well as the boy not taking nuts.
Can you post your SoM Turbo.ini file, either to somewhere like pastebin.com or here in spoiler tags? I think that'd save some trouble on back-and-forth questioning to figure out what combination of features being on and off is causing that.

Off the top of my head, the main feature that could affect item ring visibility is Bug_Fixes\No_Blats_To_Sell, especially if mixed with some combination of Items\Item_Limit_Increase and Technical\Validate_Items.

Quality_of_Life\Boy_Dislikes_Nuts shouldn't be relevant (it changes the code when you use an item, which shouldn't affect item visibility, which is likely what's affecting the item ring not showing).

Okay, thinking this through, it has to be the combination of No_Blats_To_Sell and Item_Limit_Increase. Item_Limit_Increase changes the format of owned item data (from 3 bits quantity, 5 bits ID, to 4 bits quantity, 4 bits ID), and No_Blats_To_Sell checks for invalid owned item data (if the item ID is >= the max valid item ID). I'll verify that this afternoon.



Edit to link new version.



Version 2019-08-11:
https://ufile.io/cdffjy7o (https://ufile.io/cdffjy7o)

Changes:
- Implemented Balance\Run_When_Tired
- Implemented Quality_of_Life\Inverted_Ring_Menu_Rotation and Quality_of_Life\Inverted_Shop_Menu_Rotation (both off by default)
- Implemented Bug_Fixes\Northtown_Ruins_Better_Rope
- Implemented Technical\Fake_50Hz (off by default, this one's sort've a joke feature)
- Quality_of_Life\Run_On_Trigger_Tiles now includes running on stairs (since running on trigger tiles didn't work without it)
- Compatibility fix between Items\Item_Limit_Increase and Bug_Fixes\No_Blats_To_Sell

Technical Changes:
- Two new FastROM JSR patches and three compatibility fixups
- A handful of minor optimizations
- Changed mnemonics for event commands 0B, 0C, 0D (related to Magic Rope Door)
- Implemented event command 3E, Set Rope Door, for Northtown_Ruins_Better_Rope
- A few more compat markings for documentation purposes
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190811
Post by: Chicken Knife on August 11, 2019, 08:08:36 pm
It appears to be a perfect fix with the item rings and the running. Thank you for tackling this so quickly. I'm in the mood for a complete playthrough so I'll let you know if I come across anything else.

** EDIT

I'm really asking a lot now, but there's one last tiny thing to make the dashing exactly like Trials of Mana: would it also be a relatively painless fix to only have dashing activate when you are holding a direction and the A button? In other words, it would be cool if you didn't automatically dash forward by pressing A.

This is way less of a big deal than the the stamina aspect so I'm in heaven either way.  8)

** EDIT2

Just noticed another small problem with dashing. When you leave a screen while dashing and are still holding down A, you revert to walking instead of dashing in the next area. Would be nice if the game checked to see if A was being held when you enter a new area and maintain the dash.

** EDIT3

Had an issue during the fight with the Biting Lizard (that hatches from tadpole) just before getting Undine. Boy got swallowed by the lizard at the beginning of the fight and immediately after popping out he remained frozen in place the rest of the battle. He was able to show the dash animation and attack but he continued to remain in place. Had to switch to controlling the other characters. Here's my ini if you want to look it over.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4bvni9402cn7mkf/SoM%20Turbo.190811.ini?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/4bvni9402cn7mkf/SoM%20Turbo.190811.ini?dl=0)

** EDIT4

So I was doing some spell grinding around the water temple like I've done for years and I had an idea. What about eliminating the need to spell grind altogether? I've always held to the practice of leveling up all my spells to the max after each seed and the process of doing so is nearly as tedius as Final Fantasy 2's spell grinding. Spell grinding has been my single biggest complaint about the game over the years. I went back and compiled a new rom with the faster spell grinding option to alleviate this. It was notably less tedious but I'd personally enjoy just cutting out the spell grinding aspect altogether. I'd propose simply leveling up each elemental to the max as soon as you touch a new mana seed. New elementals would join you at max level (per seeds activated). I suppose this would make the game easier in a sense, but for someone who *always* maxes their spell levels at the first opportunity, the difficulty stays the same. As far as the technicals, I'd guess that this would be a far more complex modification than any of the dash tweaks.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190811
Post by: Queue on August 12, 2019, 12:04:11 am
Edit: Wrote this before your EDIT4; for EDIT4, probably all doable via the game's event system, which is easy to modify, just a little tedious to make compatible with VWF and Relocalized.

Changes to required inputs or inputs persisting on a screen change are a taller order. I'll look, but the former may be a serious pain (primarily in this case making it stop running when you stop holding a direction, then start again without re-pressing A) and the latter may have side effects without significant safeties added to input code. If you really want it to be like Trials of Mana, I'd also need to disable running when in combat (which would also necessitate adding an in-combat and out-of-combat state... which I mention as a bad joke, no way am I doing that; I hate both of those aspects of Trials of Mana). Anyway, to elaborate, the game has... I think 3 variables that maintain input states per controller (currently pressed, currently held, acknowledged / used, etc.), plus some temporary variables used mid-input logic, and probably some action-specific state variables, and messing with the input held / used variables often has far-reaching side effects. Running is triggered by acknowledged input state and lots of things try and clear that state (and it's not reset until you release then re-press said button), including an area change. Anyway, I at least would want the latter capability for my own use, so there's a good chance of it happening if it's reasonably doable, just, even if I decide on a way to get it working I could then deem it more trouble than its worth if I then have to hammer down bugs it creates; I love fixing bugs, I hate creating bugs I then have to fix.

As for Biting Lizard, I'm not managing to reproduce the issue (of a stuck character), using your INI file, completely Vanilla SoM, Turbo defaults, my debugging settings, etc. In Vanilla SoM his eating attack has some serious visual oddities (you basically get to run around invisibly before the attack is visually finished, for example), so there's a significant chance you hit some Vanilla animation bug related to his attack. Regardless of cause, it's something I want to fix, just need to figure out what happened.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190811
Post by: ShockwaveS08 on August 12, 2019, 02:40:26 am
Just loaded the latest revision to SOM:T, and the optional adjustments to the ring menus are making things much easier to navigate! There are two bugs I encountered while I was busy acquiring Shade, Luna, and Wisp (in that order).

B1: In one single instance, sleeping at the Gold Isle Inn and immediately opening the Save Game menu afterward will cause the menu's graphics to turn into a garbled mess. Exiting the menu, and then opening the menu again via the innkeep seems to solve the issue. Not sure if this bug is reproducible.

B2: In the region of Mandala, there are certain stairs that are mildly-difficult to navigate, all of which are surrounded by slopes to the left and right; when pressing the D-Pad in a diagonal direction towards a slope adjacent to the stairs, whoever you're controlling will not move onto the stairs, but will instead travel horizontally towards the opposite slope.

B3: Whenever Salamander's spells are used by the girl, he somehow gains a purple-ish hue, yet he maintains his original color palette when summoned by the sprite.

S1: When traveling via Flammie, is it possible to have the sky's color palette match what lies on the Mode 7 ground's current timezone, assuming that the Day/Night cycle is enabled?

Addendum 1: As soon as I hit R on the Global View, I immediately saw why the map-speed suggestion from before wouldn't be feasible, as the full map was drawn to the screen, line-by-line. Nevertheless, this screen would be a good place to enable waypoint-placing, assuming that's in the cards...
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190811
Post by: Chicken Knife on August 12, 2019, 07:27:59 am
Changes to required inputs or inputs persisting on a screen change are a taller order. I'll look, but the former may be a serious pain (primarily in this case making it stop running when you stop holding a direction, then start again without re-pressing A) and the latter may have side effects without significant safeties added to input code. If you really want it to be like Trials of Mana, I'd also need to disable running when in combat (which would also necessitate adding an in-combat and out-of-combat state... which I mention as a bad joke, no way am I doing that; I hate both of those aspects of Trials of Mana). Anyway, to elaborate, the game has... I think 3 variables that maintain input states per controller (currently pressed, currently held, acknowledged / used, etc.), plus some temporary variables used mid-input logic, and probably some action-specific state variables, and messing with the input held / used variables often has far-reaching side effects. Running is triggered by acknowledged input state and lots of things try and clear that state (and it's not reset until you release then re-press said button), including an area change. Anyway, I at least would want the latter capability for my own use, so there's a good chance of it happening if it's reasonably doable, just, even if I decide on a way to get it working I could then deem it more trouble than its worth if I then have to hammer down bugs it creates; I love fixing bugs, I hate creating bugs I then have to fix.
Yeah, I definitely wouldn't be proposing disabling running during encounters like Trials of Mana. That would be a bit like coding Secret of Mana to freeze all actions during spell casting.  :laugh:

As far as the other points on running, not a big deal. While it would give the game a touch more immediate finesse, it didn't take long for me to adapt to working around either issues. I hardly notice them at this point. 

**EDIT

I frankly don't remember if this is an original bug or not, but I've noticed twice now instances where I selected to cast a spell and for whatever reason the character did nothing. It seems that if the character is in the middle of the animation for getting up off the ground, the cast command totally fails. Coming back to this after another hour of play, I think it's not a bug but intentional. When in an injured state, spells aren't going to cast. Trials of Mana handled a bit more elegantly where you couldn't even select the character to do anything if they were in such a state.

**EDIT 2

Probably an issue from the original game, but these guys guarding the stairs on the ship that picks you up in the desert create a very bizarre 6 second delay when you talk to them. If it can be fixed easily, it should be fixed.

(https://i.imgur.com/Tj1JbM1.png)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190814
Post by: Queue on August 14, 2019, 04:11:13 pm
Version 2019-08-14:
https://ufile.io/6lk7mirf (https://ufile.io/6lk7mirf)

Changes:
- Added a note about dependent feature options to the [Information] description
- Implemented Balance\Level_9_Weapon_Perk; level 9 weapons don't slow player movement while charging up
- Implemented Quality_of_Life\_Run_Requires_D-Pad; Trials of Mana-style running controls, requires Run_Freely and probably shouldn't be used with _Gradual_Turns_Only
- Implemented Quality_of_Life\Run_After_Area_Change; hopefully no bugs
- Implemented Quality_of_Life\Sand_Ship_Guard_Pause; changes a timed pause after they yell at you to a wait-until-button-press



ShockwaveS08
B1) Only have the weakest hypotheses about what could have caused that, but unless it's reproducible, nothing realistic to do about it; will keep my eyes peeled, but brute force attempts to reproduce were fruitless

B2) The ones just south of town outside the dark palace cave? I honestly didn't notice any especially onerous behavior when mounting the staircases. They're not the most user-friendly, but not something I'd change unless there's a genuine collision bug with them.

B3) Not a bug. The girl and sprite have different palettes for their elementals for whatever reason. Just seems to be some sort of aesthetic choice on the part of the game's designers. Personally, I'd always noticed the difference with Dryad due to casting the two Mana Magics back-to-back.

S1) If you search the ZPS file for "AtmoColors" you'll see the preliminary work I've done on that, but changing the sky is harder than changing the ground, so it's just not done yet. It's also not as simple as matching the sky changes to the ground changes (unless I want it to look bad); the direction you're facing also plays a large part in which sky colors to use.



Chicken Knife, the spell casting thing is intentional behavior, even if an unpleasant user experience.

The dialogue pause on those guards appears to be an intentional punishment, but it's just a one-byte change so tossed it in as a quality of life option.

While I was figuring out movement speed while weapon charging I somewhat accidentally implemented the other running stuff you'd inquired about. Neither is thoroughly tested, and the screen transition running needs it, but I just ran out of time (and didn't want to wait another day for something technically somewhat small). I took what should be a safe approach for D-Pad running, where A is still what technically what triggers running, but the running code zeros your speed if no D-Pad directions are currently pressed; this depends on Run_Freely to work as a side effect. The screen transition running was a more complex issue, as three different things all attempted to disable running on a screen change: using a "door" (which includes when you're stepping on ground, etc. that sends you to the next area), primary game logic that tries to clear running every frame whenever you don't have player control such as during the automated walking during an area exit (fade out) and entrance (fade in), and a memory clear function called at the beginning of loading a new area. I changed all three, and hopefully none have side effects I didn't hit during my testing. There are some corner cases that I don't accommodate that still disable running, but nothing that should cause issues (other than having to re-press the A button). The main example being holding A while opening / closing the ring menu will allow you to keep running until you change screens at which point you have to re-press A, but I'm interested if there are other situations with that same behavior.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190814
Post by: Chicken Knife on August 14, 2019, 09:11:43 pm
Wonderful! My experiences so far with the new run patches are working out perfectly.

I just realized something else that's been irritating me that I wanted to point out. When you are in the field targeting enemies with spells, I've noticed numerous instances where an enemy is in the field of view, albeit on the edge of the screen, but you cannot target them with magic. If one can see an enemy, I think the perimeter for spell casting should be wide enough to include them.

**EDIT

One more tiny thing to take note of when running. Holding run, attacking, and continuing to hold run is just like changing areas was before. You have to take your finger off the run button and press again to resume running. If it would be easy to auto resume running after an attack while the player holds A that would be cool. Note, this issue also occurs when you are attacked while running.

**EDIT2

I find the dark purple line (see bottom area of pic) that appears mostly on the bottom of various screens in the Ice Palace to be out of place.

(https://i.imgur.com/uLJnnaK.png)

**EDIT3

This is just an idea to throw out there that would seem to be seriously difficult to pull off. Definitely a product of having just put 100 hours into Trials of Mana. Could code be done to make enemy XP gained pop up like  a damage number on the screen, preferably in green? I absolutely love this feature with Trials and feel very in the dark about how much XP enemies are providing while I play this one.

**EDIT4

Just encountered a bug in the fire temple. Definitely something I never experienced in my many plays as a kid. I would remember this one. I was in the room that has the chest for the Axe Orb. When I started to walk down after retrieving the orb, My characters remained stuck near the chest but the screen scrolled down anyway. Pretty soon no characters were visible on the screen. (I'd post a pic of that but imgur seems to be down. Ask me later if you want to see it) So I continued to try to walk down. Eventually the room started over at the top of the tile map. Thankfully I could now control my characters again and walk around like normal to exit the room. Here's a link to my ini file if you want to look it over.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/x54hk7hdgdr2dm1/SoM%20Turbo.190814.ini?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/x54hk7hdgdr2dm1/SoM%20Turbo.190814.ini?dl=0)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190814
Post by: Queue on August 15, 2019, 07:41:47 pm
I can take a peek at spell target finding code. I admit that has always bugged me too, but for some reason it never occurred to me to change it, seeing it as just a mechanical annoyance of the game.

E1) I'll make the D-Pad running hyper aggressive at keeping you in a run state, but expect some weird corner cases that I don't intend to make accommodations for (things like if used with the Level 9 Weapon Perk of moving at full speed while charging, plus the A pauses weapon charging feature, would let you sprint while charging level 9 weapons but the charge gauge would likely also end up sucky looking given that combination).

E2) While I know what causes that, and I'll likely eventually clean up the Ice Palace with my Tidy Map feature, what you're seeing is almost definitely due to an emulation issue. Speaking of, which emulator are you using? Because those colors look washed out and wrong. Anyway, the Ice Palace uses layer blending to do its shadows (most of the game uses shadows baked into the tile art), and what you're seeing is sloppy unnecessary out of bounds shadows showing mixed with the general out of bounds area, but when I go and check the Ice Palace in Snes9x or bsnes, those stripes (etc.) aren't visible because they blend to the same color (they are visible in ZSNES, but presumably that's because it's doing it wrong).

E3) Probably a huge pain for multiple reasons (e.g. popup numbers can only go to 999, one actor can only have one set of numbers showing so they'd have to wait on or override that actor's damage numbers, etc.). Obviously things that can be overcome with enough new programming, but not something I intend to pursue.

E4) Most likely what happened is while you were opening the chest, your AI buddies were stuck on something running up and down, which was ratcheting the screen down until you were offscreen (which was allowed to happen because you were currently opening the chest which puts you in a state where you're allowed to be left offscreen). I assume this is related to the CPUs_Dont_Block_Screen feature (which isn't my creation, so I only have some idea of what it's doing). Once you were offscreen, the normal screen panning logic wasn't in effect so things were... dumb until you got back on screen. I bet this is something I can improve (probably just stricter logic for CPUs_Dont_Block_Screen to never let a human-controlled character offscreen). Edit: preliminary testing makes it look like a bug in Vanilla screen scrolling logic that makes this happen, just exacerbated by stuff that lets your party spread out more.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190814
Post by: Chicken Knife on August 15, 2019, 08:36:52 pm
To answer you question on the emulator I'm using, that would be the most current version of SNES9X. It has been rock solid from my point of view over the years.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190814
Post by: Refaze on August 16, 2019, 07:37:04 am
Why in the heck is this not mentioned anywhere else on the internet?  What a great job!  Secret of Mana has been my favorite game until recent years.  There was just too many bugs I happened to notice with age.  The work you guys are doing is incredible.  This is one of the best fan patches I have even seen and I played a lot.  Today at work is going to be like being a kid again.  Ill be jotting weapons/armour and characters down on paper excited to come home and play this gem.  Kudos  to everyone involved.  I was wondering in further updates,  do you loose your current game save? 
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190814
Post by: Queue on August 16, 2019, 05:31:56 pm
Quote from: Refaze
I was wondering in further updates, do you [lose] your current game save?
Nope, Turbo is compatible with Vanilla save data, saves made when using it are compatible with Vanilla (with one exception, detailed below), and if done carefully, save states are even compatible between versions.

Exception: Items\Item_Limit_Increase, which increases maximum consumable item count to 9, creates save data that Vanilla Secret of Mana cannot use correctly, but Turbo provides a way to sanitize the save data; make sure Technical\Validate_Items is On and Items\Item_Limit_Increase is Off, load then re-save, and that save will then be Vanilla compatible.

Details: Technical\Safe_Save_State allows save states made when using Turbo, if you make the save state while paused via Start (it'll show a little "PAUSE" label in the middle of the screen), to be loaded with any other combination of options / version of Turbo / completely Vanilla. This partly depends on the emulator not having a checksum mechanism between the save state and the ROM, but most emulators do not.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190814
Post by: Refaze on August 17, 2019, 08:14:39 am
Ok,  sounds great!  I have noticed a few things while playing;  I had opened a chest that contained the "boxing gloves" (unless this is some kind of trapped chest mechanic) but it is not visible in my inventory.  Also while charging, your characters loose the Armour color palette.  My current play-through is using the latest version of SNES9X.  So far everything else has been great!

Edit* Never mind,  the boxing glove is just a trap.  I don't know what my train of thought was that day.  So the only things I have noticed so far;

*Goblin village is a little glitchy (Expected at the moment)
*Original Armour color palette when charging
*When you get your sword upgrade you still have your weapon even though he takes it (don't believe this is a bug)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190819
Post by: Queue on August 19, 2019, 09:43:56 pm
Version 2019-08-19:
https://ufile.io/t3flg2if (https://ufile.io/t3flg2if)

Changes:
- Made D-Pad running more aggressive in detecting run button state
- Optimizations related to mod-added sound effect calls (stripped out unnecessary register saving code), hopefully didn't introduce any bugs
- Possibly fixed a bug related to screen scrolling, event-controlled characters and Quality_of_Life\Walk_To_Edges_Of_Screen
- Implemented Bug_Fixes\Stereo_Panning_Fix; fixes and unifies lots of faulty stereo panning logic in vanilla sound code, sound effects should no longer come out of the wrong speaker, nor both speakers when it should be only one
- Implemented Quality_of_Life\Damage_Feedback; aesthetic change to how the game alerts you to successful attacks: enemies vibrate slightly and the enemy "damaged" sound now plays when an attack adds damage rather than when accumulated damage causes a damage number to pop up, additionally, enemies become ghost-like when they're out of health but haven't yet played their dying animation, and conversely, if you swing at an enemy but they're currently invulnerable, there will simply be no "damaged" sound (or vibration). Enemy invulnerability periods vary wildly based on enemy appearance since it's generally tied to animations, but given the number of complaints I've heard regarding this aspect of Secret of Mana combat, that doesn't seem to be universally known. While this feature doesn't change when enemies are vulnerable, it should give you better feedback on if your attacks are working or not; this is why I categorized it as Quality_of_Life and not Balance, because it doesn't literally make things harder or easier, but most likely you'll perceive combat as slightly easier due to spending less time attacking already dead or invulnerable enemies.



Refaze, can you elaborate on the Goblin Village? There shouldn't be anything glitchy about it that I'm aware of.

Modifying the player color palette when waiting on stamina (or for that matter other temporary states like poisoned, etc.) is low priority; aside from having to track down where those various palettes are loaded, it would require some form of blending algorithm to mix the equipment color with the status effect coloring, which is only feasible if the palette is a one-time calculation (such as when changing equipment) so will depend on implementation details, and for stamina recharge specifically, I don't especially care, since I only play using Turbo_Mode (and so never see the stamina recharge blinking).

That third issue is pretty minor, just a lack of attention to detail by the original devs. There's likely some way to change that event script to hide the boy's weapon while Watts is ostensibly reforging it, so I may take a crack at it at some point. Nice catch spotting that.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190819
Post by: Refaze on August 21, 2019, 06:39:12 am
The goblin village bugs are very minor. I was making my character walk through the pot and he was kind of glitching through it.  Not really a big deal at all.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190819
Post by: zoolgremlin on August 21, 2019, 01:47:50 pm
Howdy, everyone.  I'm new to this forum, don't know a damn thing about ROM hacking, but I felt I had to register for two reasons.  First of all, I'd like to thank all of the users who have submitted patches to this forum for Secret of Mana.  Truly, you have made the original game a hundred times better than it was, and I have really enjoyed playing through again with your bug fixes and enhancements.  zhaDe, Queue, kethinov, Regrs, Timbo, Binarynova, DarkAkuma, DarkShock, FuSoYa, Masterflow, vivify93 and anyone I missed, you should all be very proud of what you've achieved.

@Queue  The second reason is to offer my help with your [Tidy_Map_Pieces] patch, if you still require it.  I have been playing through the game from the beginning just to see if I could spot any additional map oddities, using a ROM with [Scroll_Hack] and [Tidy_Map_Pieces] enabled, as you requested.  So far I have 14 screenshots showing areas that look like what you want to fix (PNG format, 256x224 resolution).  Some of them you might already be aware of, given how blatant they are, but I was half-expecting to find a lot more!  You must've already caught a lot of them.   :cookie:

Anyway, currently I've only checked maps up to the point of the first part of the Lofty Mountains (the one with the cave going to the Palace of Darkness).  Unfortunately I forgot to check the ones for the Sandship and the desert area just before it.  I can't get back there without starting the game again, sorry about that.  Will play through a second time to check those areas.   :(

Many thanks, Queue, for your hard work on the Turbo patch, it's very convenient having all of these different patches in one place to pick and choose from.  Looking forward to the next stage in your work.  Here's the link to my screenshots, hope this works 'cause I've never used Google Drive like this before...

Secret of Mana Screenshots (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1YMA_Z9LHj7wNPyd2z03uDDA6WesoUo-2?usp=sharing)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190819
Post by: Queue on August 22, 2019, 12:30:32 am
Refaze, ohh, yeah, some of those little layering oddities (like if you press up against the bottom of the cauldron and get the thin line overlapping your character) are essentially unavoidable without making too severe of changes (such as redrawing the cauldron art -_-). I did what I could to clean up layering issues on that map, but some of the Goblin Village decorations were not designed with the ability to walk around freely, and some changes that would be necessary to fully resolve them would have side effects on other maps that share the same tile set (like the sprite village or turtle island).

zoolgremlin, wow, those are fantastic. I was aware of those trees west of Pandora (that map needs lots of work so I hadn't tackled it yet), and of the issues on Gold Isle (also a pretty complicated one), but had not noticed any of those castle shadow errors, nor the Ice Palace one, and I don't think I actually noticed that specific Northtown Ruins door (I didn't have it in my list of maps that still need work). Though fair warning, those out of bounds doors tend to be harder to deal with since they're there for a reason (will elaborate); if I can fix it, it'll only be by moving it further out of bounds because it needs to exist to keep the trigger count balanced for that map.

The following is unnecessary information, but I felt like typing it anyway:

So basically every map has tiles where when you step on them something happens, whether they're doors, or whip post gathering spots, or spots where stepping there starts an event, etc. They're indexed from left-to-right, top-to-bottom, so if you have a map transition upper left that's 3 wide, a whip post gathering spot center right, a hut lower left, and a map transition lower center that's 4 wide, they'd be numbered as triggers 1 through 9 in the order I described them (so 1, 2 & 3 are the upper left transition, 4 is the whip post, 5 is the hut and 6, 7, 8 & 9 are the lower transition). The map then has a list of events that fire when you step on a trigger tile; this supposed map would have 9 events defined to match up to those 9 tiles, with the first 3 and last 4 being copies of each other. Now, things get complicated if you want to add or remove a trigger tile; lets say you want to disable the hut based on if you'd talked to an NPC. If you simply have a trigger-less hut door replace the usable hut door, trigger entry 5 would still be for the hut door, but since that trigger tile would be gone, the leftmost lower center transition tile would now instead send you into the hut. What you have to do instead, if you want to disable the hut door, is replace the usable hut door with a trigger-less door tile, then replace some other tile (probably out of bounds) with a trigger tile to fulfill that spot in the trigger list. That's what those weird out of bounds doors are doing, they're enabled, and a normal door is disabled, to keep the count of trigger tiles balanced. Some tile sets have invisible trigger tiles that are easy to hide out of bounds, but that's not true of every tile set (among other complications).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190819
Post by: zoolgremlin on August 22, 2019, 01:04:44 pm
@Queue  Thanks for your response, good to hear that the screenshots helped.  I added 6 more to the folder (numbers 014 to 019), had to put notes on 4 of them because either the location wasn't obvious, or the issue with the map wasn't quite clear.

I also went back and checked the Sandship and desert area before it (where you can go around in circles until you get the "Throat's so dry..." cutscene), couldn't find anything wrong with those.  If I've done things right, it's only the Fortress maps I haven't looked at yet.  Just finished Pure Land.

Concerning the stuff about trigger tiles, that's very interesting.  I did actually find out that the door inside the Northtown Ruins wall was a trigger tile, because I somehow thought to check it after hitting the button nearby (the one that says "A door appeared behind you!" after hitting it).  Sure enough, the door had vanished from inside the wall.  I remember Regrs mentioning on an old GameFAQs thread about how event trigger tiles are defined in the map itself, or something like that.  His posts on that thread really opened my eyes to SoM's inner workings.

I don't think you need to worry much about that door if it's too much hassle to change, at least not straight away or unless you really want to fix it.  Just thought you might like to know.  I suspected you would figure out what was causing that.   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190819
Post by: Mr X on August 25, 2019, 11:24:12 am
I like the idea of pallete changes whenever different equipment is worn but I hope the palettes would get reworked in the future, some of it does not look that appealing imo.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190825
Post by: Queue on August 26, 2019, 12:47:02 am
Version 2019-08-25:
https://ufile.io/bcmtrjwz (https://ufile.io/bcmtrjwz)

Changes:
- Added version number within ZPS file
- Implemented Miscellaneous\Day_Night_Cycle\_No_Morning_Or_Evening option (off by default), in case you want vanilla daytime, and mod-added nighttime but not morning or evening, for some reason
- Implemented Bug_Fixes\Boss_Loader_Buffer_Overflow; this was the cause of a glitchy out of bounds tile during the Frost Gigas fight
- Implemented Bug_Fixes\Text_Box_Palette_Loader; this was the cause of the oddly colored text box backgrounds in the text box edit screen when using Graphics\Alternate_Text_Boxes
- Implemented Bug_Fixes\Flakey_Snowflakes; this was related to seeing sword-shaped snow during the ending credits
- Disallowed Technical\Safe_Save_State functionality during the Mana Beast fight
- Added a deadlock safety to Technical\Safe_Save_State unpausing
- Tidy map treatment for the far north edge of Spring Beak's fight room
- Slight vertical size increase to Frost Gigas's fight room (not walkable space, just the out of bounds area)
- Tidy map treatment for the Thunder Gigas's fight room
- Tidy map treatment for the Wind Palace entrance



zoolgremlin, thanks again for the annotated screenshots. The Frost Gigas one turned out to be absurd: the code that loads his graphics was corrupting memory where the room's graphics had already been loaded; that's what was making that weird out of bounds spot instead of there being anything wrong with the map data. I then assumed the Thunder Gigas was the same issue, but nope, that was just sloppiness by whoever made his fight room. The Spring Beak room was a surprising amount of work to fix considering how simple it appeared, but any time you have to change room dimensions to fix a visual issue (as was the case here, the room needed to be made taller) it can get complicated. I scouted out the Northtown Ruins door, and think it along with a Northtown Castle door with a similar issue can be fixed at the same time, but didn't get to that yet. The Pandora Castle shadows should be cake, and I'll probably get to them over a morning cup of coffee. Gold Isle and the field west of Pandora are probably going to take multiple hours each so I'll just chip away at them as able. I didn't look for that... Tasnica shadow I think is what I'm seeing, nor Hexas's fight room, yet, but I suspect those won't be too bad. Lofty mountains I haven't assessed but I suspect that'll be a big one. The Sunken Continent / Grand Palace / Underground City entrance one you noticed may not be reasonably fixable: I spent hours adjusting it for Miscellaneous\Revisit_Sunken_Continent and that straight edge you saw was a compromise at the edge of the map (right there is where it wraps horizontally) to fit in all the other necessary map changes; I may take another stab at it some day but it's not high on my list of priorities.

Mr X, in my defense, I didn't pick the colors: those are the colors those various items had assigned to them (as seen on their inventory icons) by the game's original developers. Personally, I think pink is overrepresented and too many items have identical palettes, but I defer to the artistic choices of the original devs. Currently, my only plan is to adjust the girl's sprites so she uses the hand (accessory) slot item color better (instead of mostly in her hair), and it's going to be a ton of work.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190825
Post by: Mr X on August 26, 2019, 01:54:19 am
An odd thing I ran into, sometimes the javelin or the boomearing resets back to previous levels just when I am about to level it up with the Hero. I have weapon experience value set to B not sure if it has something to do with that.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190825
Post by: zoolgremlin on August 26, 2019, 04:44:58 pm
@Queue  Good to hear from you again, and thanks for the latest update.  Hope you don't burn yourself out on this project, I think it's best if you just go at your own pace.  It'll be done when it's done, basically.   :)

There's a lot of good information here regarding the map fixes, where to start?  I haven't seen any further map issues other than the ones I screenshotted, so that's real progress right there.   :thumbsup:

The indoor castle room you weren't quite sure about is indeed in Tasnica, it's a room you don't even have to go to at any point in the game.  So here are the directions for it:

From the first room you enter in the castle (the one with the Jema cutscene that starts off with "Jema:  [CharNameBoy]!  I hardly recognized you!"), go through the archway on the far left and through the door above the staircase, then go north through two rooms and you're there.  Since players can get to the fake King scene and back without entering that side of the castle, can't blame anyone for missing the incorrect shadow tile.

A similiar sort of issue arises with the incorrect Sunken Continent tile.  Basically, you wouldn't notice this sort of thing as a player unless you were looking for it, as we were.  Given that Regrs has already stated, that the Grand Palace exterior is the most complicated map in the game (the two versions of it are the same map with set-pieces turned on or off, depending on the value of an Event Control Flag), it's already great that you were able to do stuff with it.  So it doesn't matter if a single tile is slightly off, is what I think.   :)

I somehow missed the door trigger tile being visible in the Emperor's Castle, oops.  Must've not checked a couple of rooms thoroughly enough, damn.

And sorry to hear about the Frost Gigas room issue being so difficult, I never would've guessed it was caused by memory corruption.  Even though I've read so much about how sloppy the game's code is, in Vanilla.

About changing the size of rooms, I used no-clip in a few places to see how the maps wrap-around, and could see that some rooms are/were not quite big enough to hide out-of-bounds issues with [Scroll_Hack], such as Gold Isle.  It hadn't quite occurred to me that Spring Beak's arena had the size issue, but I did notice it in Lofty Mountains, for example.  Perhaps I should've put a note about that in the screenshot.  But again, it'll be done when it's done.

What makes these patches and this project so grand is this:  It's like the game is getting the clean-and-polish it never got from Square.  Great job, Queue, you're doing very well.  Cheers!   8)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190827
Post by: Queue on August 27, 2019, 06:18:53 pm
Version 2019-08-27:
https://ufile.io/jqpf9zmd (https://ufile.io/jqpf9zmd)

Changes:
- Tidy map treatment for Pandora Castle (shadow tops in stool hallway and arch over left staircase in entry room)
- Tidy map treatment for Minotaur fight room (single tile over top exit doorway)
- Tidy map treatment for Tasnica Castle (shadow top in u-turn room)
- Fixed out-of-bounds door visibility in Ice Palace, Northtown Castle and Northtown Ruins (simple fixes, either moving them farther out-of-bounds, or hiding them behind foreground walls)



Mr X, when you say it resets back to previous levels you mean the boy's maximum charge level / weapon level right (not the weapon itself reverting to a lower level version of itself)? So it requires even more grinding to level? Does it lose a level or just stay the same but drop back to low / no exp into the current level?

zoolgremlin, I tackled quite a few things over coffee; the out-of-bounds doors turned out to be trivial fixes (I had planned something more complicated but it was unnecessary), and I knocked out some castle shadows while I was at it.

The Frost Gigas issue was actually fun to fix because it was so absurd. They knew there was a buffer overflow risk and had code to try and avoid it, but it still went one byte too far, which is why it was only that single tile getting corrupted. Having looked at the guts of many games over the years (all Win32 x86 code, aside from SoM), by computer programming standards, SoM seems pretty normal in code sloppiness to me, but I don't have any experience with other SNES game's code to compare against. The garbage compilers output is far messier than what a human writing assembly does and ends up obfuscating sloppy high-level code. Human-written assembly (most if not all SNES code) generally has to be kept logical to a human mind to not confuse themselves as they're working on it.

Don't worry about noting things like if you think rooms are too small, etc.; suggestions of that sort likely won't be helpful as it boils down to me puzzling out the best way to fix a room, and that generally depends on what the room's data looks like when I go inspect it since I have to fit the changes in without changing how much data the map uses in the ROM (it's not something I expect someone to be able to reasonably intuit unless they've done some SoM map edits in a hex editor). Widening rooms is arguably impossible for many rooms (not enough space to make the necessary changes to fit it in the same space), and when it's possible it's usually EXTREMELY difficult. Increasing their height is usually easy, but there are exceptions, like when there are trees at the far top or bottom edge. Neither is usually necessary though, as I can often design a map edge that seamlessly wraps, among other options.

Don't worry about burn out. If I do, I do, and honestly I do kinda want to be done with SoM, but I've been messing with it nearly daily since January, so... I have a bucket list of sorts, where once those are complete I'll probably be done, but I haven't gotten to all of them yet and new things to do keep popping up and delaying them getting completed.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190827
Post by: Piotyr on August 28, 2019, 04:13:33 am
A youtuber/hd texturer named Nerrel mentioned this hack in his latest video on collection of Mana and the remake of SoM, he basically said there is no reason to play the remake with this hack existing. While I think the translation and extra story scenes are good reason to play the remake (after playing the original) he is mostly right. Also I wish more improvement hacks would be modular like this one!
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190827
Post by: zoolgremlin on August 28, 2019, 01:51:52 pm
@Queue  Wow, we're damn lucky to be getting the next update so quick!   :woot!:

No, I haven't used a hex editor before.  I've noted a few times through the thread that your updates to [Tidy_Map_Pieces] have included fixes to map tiles that I didn't notice were wrong.  Your eye for detail appears to be much keener than mine, heh.  :-[

Not being a programmer myself (in 65816 assembly language or any other), I wouldn't know how "sloppy" the code is.  I probably misspoke.  Mostly, when I read about problems in the game, it's about things that are dummied out or don't work as intended or very well, and I'm mostly relying on Regrs' insight here, and a bit from HHS on TASVideos (EDIT) and yourself, since you and they seem to know more about the code than most, or at least myself.  Some of the things that I've heard Regrs talk about, and which you would be familiar with:

- Weakness to Luna and Dryad being forcefully removed from enemies that should have them.  I think that counts as dummied out, since the functionality wasn't removed altogether, and can be restored.  Luna has no damage spell apart from Magic Absorb (which only affects MP and therefore can't kill anything in this game), whereas Dryad at least has Burst.  I assume that's why the devs thought Luna/Dryad weakness was not worth keeping in Vanilla. I'm still racking my brains, trying to work out how Moonlight and Wood oppose each other as elemental forces.   How would you even damage something with Moonlight, anyway?  I suppose the same could be said of Darkness, if you mean literal darkness/shadows.  Why would the Wood element allow you to explode stuff with "hidden energy"?  But that's not a code problem, just me wondering about the weird physical laws of the game world.  :laugh:

- The game being very bad about overusing variables.  I would have to look through the GameFAQs thread I've mentioned before to find his examples of that.   :-[

- Boss AI being flawed, such as Mech Rider III repeatedly casting Speed Up on himself after casting Wall, which only helps you rather than him.  Or the Mana Beast having Lucid Barrier as a spell in its ability list, but never fulfilling the condition needed to cast the spell.  Probably counts as not intended.

Whereas the removal of Luna/Dryad weakness appears to be deliberate, I would guess that stuff like faulty boss AI could have been fixed by the original devs if they'd had the time.  But a development cycle for a commercial game only goes for so long, before the publishers decide the game needs to start making money instead of costing it.

I do seem to ramble on a bit, for a guy who doesn't "hack ROMs", haha.  About the weapon level reset bug/glitch that Mr. X mentioned, I have also experienced that, but I only have one save state right now where it's happening.  I'll post more about my experience with that once I've experimented a bit more with it.  Cheers!

August 28, 2019, 05:59:17 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Okay, hopefully I won't get in trouble posting twice in such a short time, heh.   :-[

UPDATE:  Concerning the WpnLV reset, I tested levelling up the Boomerang and Javelin with all three characters.  I also tested with most other weapons on all three characters, which is not quite thorough.  But so far, the bug has only occurred with the Boomerang and Javelin.  And it has not occurred with the Girl and the Sprite, only with the Boy.

Specifically, I noticed the two nibble values stored in memory address 7EE1C3 (high nibble = Boy's Boomerang Level, low nibble = Boy's Javelin Level, as shown on the Weapon Level screen) getting overwritten with another value, possibly pulled from somewhere else.  (EDIT:  I was assuming there is no function call to set or decrement weapon levels at any time, but there has to be at least one:  The Start New Game Event and/or the New Character Joined Event.  My bad  :-[).  In my case the value that gets written to either nibble, depending on the weapon equipped, is always 0000.  This value was not set when weapon experience was awarded for a kill, whether by the Boy himself, or an ally.

Instead, what I noticed is that I would kill enemies and gain weapon XP/LVs with the Boy for a while, with no trouble, then the value would be set to 0000 at some point after moving on from the last kill.  I tried using Fast Forward on SNES9x while standing still near the last kill for a while, to see if it would happen without moving anywhere, but so far it hasn't.  It would only happen when I moved to some other point on the map.  Looking for another enemy to kill.

Also, to answer the question you asked Mr X, the bug does not reset weapon XP, only weapon Levels.  And oh yeah, the weapon does not revert to an earlier version of itself.

Interestingly enough, when the bug happens, I can still charge up the Boomerang or Javelin to the value either weapon was, before being reset.  The game seems to check the value at address 7EE19C to determine the maximum level the Boy can charge up to.  Ordinarily, that value would be the same as the one displayed on the Weapon Level screen, for whatever weapon is currently equipped.  When the bug happens, though, the value at 7EE19C does not change along with it straightaway.  That only gets reset when the Boy gains a new level for the currently equipped weapon.  EDIT:  Or when the Boy changes weapon.  Both of which are normal behaviour.  :)

Hope that all helps, but if you like I can send a copy of my save state and .ini by Linking to them later on.  It's not that bad a bug, just a bit weird.  If it caused all the enemies to duckwalk before Blue-Screening your device, it might be a bit worse.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190827
Post by: Queue on August 28, 2019, 07:47:48 pm
I'll do a long write-up later, but that was enough info to fix it, thanks a bunch. Very short version: it was a mistake on my part in Boy_Dislikes_Nuts. Whoops.



Edit: Okay, long write-up time.

First off, thanks again for pointing me at 7EE1C3, that alone potentially saved me lots of time. Also, having more eyes looking for sloppy map art is super helpful; it's not like I noticed those castle shadows for example. Hm, I hope Chicken Knife didn't think I was being dismissive on the Ice Palace graphical issues, re-reading what I wrote it kinda seems that way, but I really did appreciate it being pointed out as I hadn't spotted those either and I will fix them eventually.

Anyway, It was a bit of AI scripting code altering that memory address, but through no fault of the original SoM programmers. When an enemy spawns it runs an on-spawn AI script. Rabites' on-spawn script starts at the very first byte of a monolithic block of data holding AI scripts. And their on-spawn script begins with a call to another AI script; and the AI script bytecode for a call is 0xFF. In this case, FF 00 43 (call AI script 0x43 bytes forward).

So, when I made Boy_Dislikes_Nuts I fit the code addition necessary for it into an unused space in the ROM (somewhat) near the other item ring item use code, which also happens to be in the part of the ROM that contains enemy AI scripts. There's a chunk of a few dozen bytes all set to 0xFF, and it looked like a safe place to overwrite. The problem was, the last 0xFF wasn't unused, it was the first byte of the monolithic block of enemy AI scripts and had a specific purpose: the FF in FF 00 43 BD of the Rabite on-spawn AI script. My code replaced that FF with DB, which when used as an AI script command, means modify some actor data by ANDing it with a certain byte. The AI script became DB 00 43 BD, which means, when a Rabite spawns, read actor number 00's (which is the boy) data 0x0180 + 0x43, AND it with 0xBD, then write the result back. 0x0180 + 0x43 = 0x01C3, and the boy's data is at 7EE000, so 7EE000 + 0x01C3 = 7EE1C3. The value at 7EE1C3 & 0xBD will blot out certain values but not others; so when testing with a save where the boy has his weapons leveled up to 8, 0x88 & 0xBD = 0x88, so there's no visible change. But say you had both at 7, 0x77 & 0xBD = 0x35; you'd possibly notice that loss in levels.

Sooo, whoops. I moved the Boy_Dislikes_Nuts patch one byte back, did a little checking and hopefully am correct in my assessment that the other overwritten bytes really are unused.



Edit2: Bah, I also found a mistake in my No_Blats_To_Sell bug fix, so that'll be fixed in the next update as well. If you have a full item ring of 12 items the UI breaks.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190827
Post by: zoolgremlin on August 29, 2019, 03:38:34 pm
Hey... no worries.  With a project of this scope and magnitude, the occasional hiccup is bound to happen.  I suspected the bug was only happening when I moved enough to spawn a new enemy, but wasn't sure.  I just happened to be fighting on the map west of Pandora, which has Rabite spawns, but wouldn't have guessed it was the Rabite's doing.  Those wacky hairballs...  :laugh:

When I checked the AND operation you mentioned with Windows Calculator in Programmer mode, I got exactly the results I saw in-game.  Fascinating stuff, thanks very much for the explanation.

I can certainly check to see how the two weapons level up again, in an area with Rabites.  The bit before Potos Village seems ideal for that.  At the same time, I am playing through a ROM with [Tidy_Map] on, and one with it off, to see the changes already made, and whether I spot any more map oddities not yet mentioned.  Between yourself, Chicken Knife, and me coming in at the last minute, I think that they've almost all been spotted by now.  Hope you have a good one...  8)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190827
Post by: Chicken Knife on August 30, 2019, 07:42:03 am
First off, thanks again for pointing me at 7EE1C3, that alone potentially saved me lots of time. Also, having more eyes looking for sloppy map art is super helpful; it's not like I noticed those castle shadows for example. Hm, I hope Chicken Knife didn't think I was being dismissive on the Ice Palace graphical issues, re-reading what I wrote it kinda seems that way, but I really did appreciate it being pointed out as I hadn't spotted those either and I will fix them eventually.
Don't worry at all. My overall impression has continued to be one of amazement at how committed you are to listening to and incorporating feedback.

The only reason I quieted down a bit is because sadly I've always found the latter portion of the game to be lacking compared to the early and middle portions. Earlier there are these spacious and magical feeling environments to explore but once you get Flammie it feels like it devolves into a town/temple/town/temple pattern that sucks quite a bit of the joy out of the affair for me. Sadly, I don't think any amount of your technical wizardry can solve a problem like this one.

I do want to push myself to finish since it's been years since I actually completed the game. Will let you know if anything else comes up.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190827
Post by: hmsong on August 31, 2019, 07:24:25 pm
Wow, the patch package is so nice.  Truly fine work.  Thank you so much.  I am seriously looking forward to your next patch (btw, having the date number instead of patch version was a fantastic idea).

I do have some requests/suggestions:

1. Similar to "Level 9 Weapons Progression Balance" and "No Missing Orb", could you make another patch with just the Axe and Glove orbs in the Underground City? (or Tree Palace)  That's what it was suppose to have anyways (probably).  That way, you would have 7 orbs of all weapons, and the final dungeon enemies carrying the 8th Orbs would make sense (instead of 7th and 8th for some weapons).  And Watts being in the Mana Fortress would make sense too.  Besides, I feel like having so many orbs (9~10 extra orbs) seem a bit overkill.

I also think having a legitimate way of obtaining 8th Sword orb is a great idea (assuming the 9th sword is powered down, as "Mana_Magic_Unequip_Fix" did).  I heard the original game Mana Tree checks if you have 7 orbs, and if you don't, it gives you additional sword orbs.  So maybe make it check all 8 orbs, instead of 7?  So in total, 3 orbs instead of 9~10.  That seems more reasonable.  Having a separate patch would be awesome, so people can choose which patch they'd like.



2. Can you change the effects of Lunar Magic spell?  That thing is literally useless, as it has random effects, both to enemies and allies.  If enemies were to use it, then it would make sense, but no enemies can use it.  Maybe make it lower the victim's physical stats? (Attack, P.Defense, Accuracy, Evasion)  Similar to Seiken Densetsu 3's Black Curse.  That way, it'll justify its absurd 8 MP cost, but still be somewhat useful.



3. At 8:99 spell level, when a spell is in effect, all game sprites freeze for the "cool effect" of the 3rd tier spells.  However, this also prevents the chain-spells, hence making them less effective than 1st/2nd spells.  So could you make a patch so that all tier spells would make the sprites freeze during the spell animation?  Similar to Seiken Densetsu 3.  That way, it'll disable chain-casting AND not make 3rd tier spells less useful than 1st/2nd tier spells.

I know that 2-second spell recoil patch exists, and yes, that does prevent chain-spells.  However, it still doesn't prevent 3rd tier spells being somewhat less useful (from a certain perspective), because you (the player) can do plenty of other things while the spell goes through the animation (use items, heal, attack other enemies who are not being attacked by a spell, etc), especially since the victim is frozen in place while the rest of the world is not.  For 3rd tier spells, the entire world is frozen, even the menu button.



4. Could you make it so that enemies can interrupt spell casting? (which will still consume MP, but the spell will not activate).  That way, players will have to think about using spells.  Players can't interrupt enemy spells though (except against Bite Lizards), since players summon Mana Spirits to use magic, whereas monsters use the magic themselves.



5. In "Neko and Watts in the Mana Fortress", can you get rid of all the monsters in the room with Neko, right before Dark Lich?  Seeing Neko surrounded powerful monsters seems... off.  Besides, I don't want to be surrounded by monsters the moment I load up the game.  I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way.  I know this is Kethinov's patch, so I contacted him first, but he didn't respond to my PM.  Perhaps because I should contact you first (as your patch package instructed).



6. Sometimes, when you use the Glove to a downed foe, you throw instead.  You can even use the charged attacks for different throws (shown in Youtube).  However, they don't do ANY damage.  So, could you make a patch where they do great damage or something?



I know this is a lot of requests.  Sorry about that.  And thank you.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190827
Post by: hmsong on August 31, 2019, 07:56:57 pm
Some updates to your existing packages:

- There is [Neko_And_Watts_In_Fortress] v1.2, but your package has v1.1.
- There is [Gaias_Navel_Treasure] v1.1, but your package has v1.0.
- There is [Restore_Unused_Fanfares] v1.2, but your package has v1.1.

These may just be txt error though.



Also, for [Magic_Recharging] hack, could you define which spells are Short magic, Medium Magic, and Long Magic Recharge?  At least in the txt part?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190827
Post by: Mr X on September 01, 2019, 03:07:23 am


Mr X, when you say it resets back to previous levels you mean the boy's maximum charge level / weapon level right (not the weapon itself reverting to a lower level version of itself)? So it requires even more grinding to level? Does it lose a level or just stay the same but drop back to low / no exp into the current level?



Yeah I mean in terms of charge level it gets to reset back.

For example if I have Boomerang forged to 6, just when I am about to reach level 6 charge it resets randomly to to previous levels charge (sorry if for late reply and not explaining it properly).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190827
Post by: hmsong on September 01, 2019, 05:56:51 am
Bug Report (for 190827):

If I enable [Quality_of_Life], [Equip_2nd_Weapon], [Text], [Relocalized], [Bug_Fixes], and [Elman_Stops_Stammering] at the same time, then start from blank (meaning, no .srm file), and then I start with Load Game part, all the saved filed (somehow, they exist) are all corrupt.

Please check.  I have a screenshot, but I don't know how to attach it.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190827
Post by: pftmclub on September 01, 2019, 07:00:09 am
@Queue : I want to ask, will you planning to start  "Trial of mana turbo" project in the future? :D
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190827
Post by: hmsong on September 01, 2019, 08:56:59 am
Bug Report:

[Later_Midge_Mallet] patch actually applies [Early_Midge_Mallet].  I haven't tried [Early_Midge_Mallet] though.

September 02, 2019, 02:17:14 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
These aren't bugs, but I'd appreciate it if you include these in the txt parts of the package:

1. [Reduce_Moon_Saber_Healing]: Doesn't show the recovered HP.  Also, if you lose HP by using this (such attacking Undead), then you lose full HP.
2. [Revisit_Sunken_Continent]: The bridge only activates if you talk to the girl in the palace after the Continent sinks again.
3. [King_Goes_To_Bed]: The King enters the room, but the Queen seems to go through the wall.
4. [Magic_Recharging]: As mentioned before, please describe WHICH magics are short/medium/long magic recharge.
5. [Scroll_Hack], [CPUs_Dont_Block_Screen]: When stepping on the Whip tile, and if the AI ally is too far (but not far enough to teleport), the game gets stuck.

September 02, 2019, 08:20:31 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Bug Report:

I'm not sure which patch caused this (I had a lot of them enabled), but I'm guessing it's either Faerie Coconut or Faerie Coconut Graphic.  In any case, the moment I got the 12th item (in my case, Moogle Belt), the graphic of Item section got all screwed up, and I was only able to choose 2 items (depending on which I had selected last).  If I used up one of the items, then the item menu goes back to normal, but as soon as I get the 12th item, it gets screwed up again.  Please check.

September 03, 2019, 12:14:25 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Bug Report (revised):

Okay, I figured out which patch is causing the 12th item's presence (such as Faerie Coconut) causes the entire item circle to glitch up:  [No_Blats_To_Sell].  Not sure why though.  Please check.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190902
Post by: Queue on September 03, 2019, 02:24:51 am
Version 2019-09-02:
https://ufile.io/5fwmi2v2 (https://ufile.io/5fwmi2v2)

Pretty big update.

Changes:
- Slight tweaks to Magic\Magic_Recharging regarding which spells have long, medium and short cooldowns. Search the ZPS file for \tbl_magicRechargeTime.asm to see specific spell classifications.
- Implemented Magic\Moon_Saber_-_Reversible; gives same inverted healing behavior on ghosts as on undead.
- Implemented Items\Farmable_Sword_Orb; moves Spear Orb drop from Tsunamis to Turtlances, and gives Tsunamis a Sword Orb drop.
- Added more info to Items\No_Missing_Orb's description; no change to functionality.
- Implemented Items\Mana_Fortress_Rarity_Swap; any weapon orb dropper's rare drop (their weapon orb) and common drop (usually equipment) is exchanged so the weapon orbs take less farming, while the desirable equipment is rarer.
- Added more info to Balance\Reduce_Moon_Saber_Healing's description and changed healing reduction formula to round up instead of down (e.g. 33 / 2 = 17 instead of 16, 1 / 2 = 1 instead of 0).
- Verified and incremented Quality_of_Life\Neko_And_Watts_In_Fortress version number from 1.1 to 1.2, and fixed a bug that was my fault that enabled the teleporters in Mech Rider III's fight room. If you see this Kethinov, I had made a mistake when adding the song auto event so you'll want to update your release with this change as well.
- Removed (Experimental) status from Graphics\Functional_Fashion.
- Verified and incremented Audio\Restore_Unused_Fanfares version number from 1.1 to 1.2; no change to functionality.
- Removed (Experimental) status from Miscellaneous\Day_Night_Cycle, implemented sky color change when flying, implemented dynamic distance fog when flying, replaced sun with moon during Flammie launch at night, added a few more minor enemy night spawn changes.
- Added more info to Miscellaneous\Revisit_Sunken_Continent's description; no change to functionality.
- Added Kethinov's Miscellaneous\Remove_Empire_Castle_Gate version 1.1; tiny change to his hack to make the bonus throne room chest immovable.
- Updated Kethinov's Miscellaneous\Gaias_Navel_Treasure from version 1.1 to 1.2 and added a sub-option _Navel_Immodesty to boost the now baseline 50gp chest to 1000gp.
- Improved Bug_Fixes\Whip_Post_Fix; now avoids memory corruption caused by text boxes that would interfere with whip post behavior (e.g. stand on whip post gathering spot, land a critical on an enemy which causes a text box to show, whip post wouldn't work until you step off then back on the gathering spot).
- Changed Technical\Disable_Checksum_Bypass into Technical\Checksum_Bypass (off by default) and improved the description.
- Slight adjustment to Combat\Strong_And_Weak_Attacks: sword and glove directional attacks (thrust and kick) have slightly less animation delay (makes them feel slightly more responsive).
- Fixed some messy tiles in Hexas's fight room, part of Bug_Fixes\Boss_Rendering_Fix.
- Fixed bug in Bug_Fixes\No_Blats_To_Sell; if you had 12 different items, the item ring was seriously broken.
- Fixed bug in Quality_of_Life\Boy_Dislikes_Nuts; caused a Rabite spawning to potentially de-level the boy's boomerang and/or javelin weapon level.



Mr X, no sweat, the bug is now squashed. =) It was caused by Quality_of_Life\Boy_Dislikes_Nuts (and Rabites).

pftmclub, not likely. While I think Trials of Mana is visually beautiful, I don't actually like it very much. It surprises me how different a game it is from Secret of Mana (in ways I don't like) while being superficially so similar.

hmsong, it'll take me a while to respond to all you posted; a fair bit of things you mention made it into this update, but I'll hammer out itemized responses to you tomorrow afternoon. Already burned the time I had tonight on this changelog.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190902
Post by: hmsong on September 03, 2019, 02:46:53 am
Thank you.

September 03, 2019, 03:44:11 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
I hope the Turtlelance's Sword Orb isn't farmable when you face it in the Tree Palace.  Otherwise, Thunder Gigas dropping another Sword Orb will be a problem (I think it resets the total Orbs collected).  Not to mention that Sword may have all 8 orbs, while other weapons will have at most 5~6 orbs.  Why not simply replace an enemy in the Mana Fortress with a Sword Orb chest?  Specifically, the one next to the final Neko?  And while at it, why not replace two enemies in the Tree Palace (or Ancient City) with a Glove Orb and an Axe Orb?  I feel like that's something that many people would like (myself included).

I hope you consider my suggestion.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190902
Post by: Queue on September 03, 2019, 03:03:30 pm
I do have some requests/suggestions:
1) The point of Kethinov's Weapons Progression Balance having so many orb chests, etc. is so you don't have to get the final orb per weapon as drops in the Mana Fortress (which is a pretty boring, grindy process), you get the correct amount per weapon to level them all to 9 at the end of the game. zhaDe's No_Missing_Orb should result in there being an even balance of orbs when you hit the Mana Fortress (all weapons level 8). I'm not inclined to add a third option to hit the Mana Fortress with all at 8, especially when I personally use Weapons Progression Balance.

The Mana Tree doesn't check before setting your sword orbs to 7, it just sets it blindly. It also sets all weapons maximum orbs to (basically) 8, except the sword which it sets to 7. Modifying the event is possible, but there's no extra space so would be annoying.

As for an obtainable 8th sword orb, you've seen my first attempt. It has issues that I'll resolve next update.

2) Yeah, it's a sucky spell. Not high on my list of priorities, but something I may do someday. I'd also like to replace Evil Gate; even with Kethinov's hack that beefs it up it still feels bleh to use.

3) Absolutely not. One of my top complaints with Trials of Mana is how all of its spells freeze all action; it's awful. If I do anything regarding this it would be to make the level 8 spells not freeze time, but I suspect they do so for technical reasons. I do agree that it makes the level 8 spells worse than their less fancy versions, and is something I'd like to adjust someday.

4) That's a neat idea. I'll probably dig around and see if it's possible.

5) This is something to bring up with Kethinov. I assume he just hasn't been to the forums so hasn't seen your PM. Just brainstorming, it may be more practical to move Neko forward through the teleporter into the empty Mech Rider III room.

6) Melee damage is done via melee animations having a collide-able damage region. Throws have such a region, which means if you do a throw on one enemy, and there's a second enemy nearby, the collider can hit that second enemy; effectively you're throwing the first enemy into the second. Unfortunately, the grabbed enemy is not able to collide with the damaging collider during the throw animation (so that's why they don't take damage). Not sure what it would take to resolve this. Strong_And_Weak_Attacks removes the glove weapon throws, so it's a non-issue, and that's the default configuration I support, so changing throws is pretty low on my list of priorities. They're fun, so in theory I'd like to fix them up and make them worthwhile, but I have other stuff I'd rather work on.

Some updates to your existing packages:
Neko_And_Watts_In_Fortress and Restore_Unused_Fanfares were just out-dated descriptions. Gaias_Navel_Treasure needed a minor update (1000gp -> 50gp, and a dependent option to switch back to 1000gp). Thanks for pointing those out.

I can't think of a concise way to format the spell recharge time table in the description for Magic_Recharging. I added a general explanation of the logic behind the recharge timings to the description, but for now, if you want to see exactly which spell gets what timer, open the Turbo ZPS file in a text editor and search for \tbl_magicRechargeTime.asm to see the table (I added comments to clarify which entry is for which spell).

...then start from blank, all the saved filed (somehow, they exist) are all corrupt.
Use a site like https://imgur.com/ to upload screenshots. They provide direct image links suitable for using in forum posts. But I happen to know of this issue, so no screenshot necessary.

Anyway, the problem you ran into has a fairly specific cause: have Equip_2nd_Weapon and/or QuickSpell_Hotkeys On, and Disable_Checksum_Bypass Off (this feature has changed since you hit this issue, will elaborate in a sec), then start the game without save data (.SRM file) in an emulator that initializes the save data with all bits set (all 0xFF bytes), such as ZSNES. Checksum_Bypass looks for 0xFFFF in the save's checksum value and skips validating if that's the value, which results in garbage saves being visible at the load screen. I changed Disable_Checksum_Bypass (On by default) into Checksum_Bypass (Off by default) to reduce the likelihood of someone running into this on accident.

Bug Reports:
I checked Earlier_Midge_Mallet and Later_Midge_Mallet and they change the bytes exactly as done by Kethinov's two hacks (modify an event related to getting the Midge Mallet). I don't personally use either so am not familiar with the precise expected behavior.

1. [Reduce_Moon_Saber_Healing]: Description Changed
2. [Revisit_Sunken_Continent]: Description Changed
3. [King_Goes_To_Bed]: That's the vanilla NPC movement for that event, so eh, get a time machine and tell the original devs they were kinda sloppy when setting up the queen's movements.
4. [Magic_Recharging]: Seems like too much data to dump into the description. If I can make a compact table I will, but not high on my list of things to do.
5. [Scroll_Hack], [CPUs_Dont_Block_Screen]: Should be handled by Bug_Fixes\Gather_Party_Fix. If you can still make it happen even with that bug fix On, let me know.

[No_Blats_To_Sell]: Fixed in Version 190902. I was accidentally allowing a 13th item to try and load, and the ring menu can't handle more than 12 icons.

I hope the Turtlelance's [Spear] Orb isn't farmable when you face it in the Tree Palace.
Whoops, it sorta is. I forgot they were the same enemy type in the Grand Palace and Mana Fortress; now it makes sense why they have such a crummy drop. Crud. Your maximum orbs value should prevent the drop from actually occurring until after talking to the Mana Tree, but I'll want to reassess this. This probably also risks an issue with Day_Night_Cycle adding nighttime Metal Crabs to Pure Land since they also have a weapon orb.

I want the 8th sword orb to be a drop in the Mana Fortress to match the other weapons. Just need to figure out a suitable enemy to cram it on. I didn't use Doom Swords because I did remember that they were in the Grand Palace. I also thought I'd read that weapon orb drops only functioned in the Mana Fortress, but that's incorrect info; the dropped orb chests only check if current orbs < maximum orbs (and various things set the maximum orb values, notably the Mana Tree event).

Replacing enemies with chests is Kethinov's thing. If there are some accidentally unreachable chests I'll move them in-bounds, but the two existing features related to weapon orbs already handle bumping orb availability. Part of my reluctance is that you don't just put in a chest that contains an orb, you put in a chest that contains a specific level orb, which means having to verify the correct orb count for that weapon at that point in the game, and modifying any orb chests for that weapon type that come later in the game.



There, think that replies to everything.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190902
Post by: hmsong on September 03, 2019, 07:10:09 pm
Truly, thank you for your kind replies.  I look forward to your next release.

1. I'm trying your "Missing Orbs" patch, to see the difference between Kev's other patch.
2. I'd love to see both Lunar Magic and Evil Gate change.  I don't know what Evil Gate will do (SD3's Death spell was too OP though).
3. Ahh.  Makes sense.
4. Thank you.
5. You're right.  Your idea is more practical, if it's possible.  I was thinking the final room (before Mech Rider 3) would have Neko, Watts, and a Lv9 Sword Orb chest, but your idea works great too.
6. Yeah, throws seemed to be disabled for strong/weak attacks.  I just love throws, esp in fighting games, so I guess I just wanted to see it.  And chain-throws.

I'm sure you can do it better, but I thought I might as well share the magic-recoil thing with everyone else, since I tested them.  Perhaps you can include this in your next release description:

Short Magic Recharge:   6 Sabers, 4 Stat Ups/Downs, Analyze, Lunacy, Dispel
Medium Magic Recharge:   Refresh, 3 Status Effects, Energy Ball, 2 Barriers, Transform
Long Magic Recharge:   Cure Water, 17 Damage Magics, Revive

Bug Report:
When Moon Saber damages an enemy, your HP doesn't change (screen view only, since the code seems to change), unless you kill an enemy, or you do something to affect your HP (ex: getting damaged, using HP item, etc).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190902
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 04, 2019, 12:49:00 am
@Queue  Good to see you again.  I was going to wait until I finished my two parallel playthroughs, but it's taking a long time.  So, added two more screenshots to the folder (numbers 020 and 021).  Here's the link again so you don't have to go back another page:  Secret of Mana Screenshots (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1YMA_Z9LHj7wNPyd2z03uDDA6WesoUo-2?usp=sharing)

I had no idea that the ZPS file was editable in Notepad, just checked that earlier after reading your update post and seeing the bit about [Magic_Recharging].  I wouldn't trust myself to edit most of what's in the file, but changing which spells are Short/Medium/Long sounds like a great idea!  I will try that soon... :thumbsup:

Also, I will have a look and verify your fix for [Boy_Dislikes_Nuts], although the bug is easy to avoid once you know what causes it.    :crazy:

There's a question I'd like to ask about Lime Slime/Dread Slime.  It seems like both of these bosses are a lot easier to hit with weapons than they used to be, not that this is a problem, necessarily.  Based on my observations, they don't have invincibility frames anymore, or not as many.  Is this something that was implemented in a patch?  Just curious.

Regarding Evil Gate/Lunar Magic, I haven't really got any suggestions about those spells apart from making them do straight damage, instead of using a special formula to do percentile damage (which ignores Magic Def.)/random nonsense nobody cares about.  Although in Evil Gate's case, there's already Dark Force to do straight damage, sooo... hmmm.  In Lunar Magic's case, as noted before, there's no Moon-damage spell except Magic Absorb, so that would help.  But changing the way spells work might not be a simple matter.

Thanks very much for the latest update, I'm still lovin' what Turbo can do.   8)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190902
Post by: Mr X on September 04, 2019, 02:52:28 am


I want the 8th sword orb to be a drop in the Mana Fortress to match the other weapons. Just need to figure out a suitable enemy to cram it on. I didn't use Doom Swords because I did remember that they were in the Grand Palace. I also thought I'd read that weapon orb drops only functioned in the Mana Fortress, but that's incorrect info; the dropped orb chests only check if current orbs < maximum orbs (and various things set the maximum orb values, notably the Mana Tree event).

Replacing enemies with chests is Kethinov's thing. If there are some accidentally unreachable chests I'll move them in-bounds, but the two existing features related to weapon orbs already handle bumping orb availability. Part of my reluctance is that you don't just put in a chest that contains an orb, you put in a chest that contains a specific level orb, which means having to verify the correct orb count for that weapon at that point in the game, and modifying any orb chests for that weapon type that come later in the game.



There, think that replies to everything.

Even tho I personally will still use Kethinov's patch, as you said the process of getting the orbs is boring, if you are gonna make the sword dropable I would suggest the Ninja Master in Mana Fortress to drop both the boomerang and the sword orb. It even fits with him using a boomerang and sword weapon itself, and is a Mana Fortress exclusive enemy.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190902
Post by: Thanatos-Zero on September 04, 2019, 03:34:18 am
Even tho I personally will still use Kethinov's patch, as you said the process of getting the orbs is boring, if you are gonna make the sword dropable I would suggest the Ninja Master in Mana Fortress to drop both the boomerang and the sword orb. It even fits with him using a boomerang and sword weapon itself, and is a Mana Fortress exclusive enemy.

I remember how I and my older brother did grind master ninjas for no end, because of that very thought. We had at that point all weapon orbs, except for the final Sword Orb.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190902
Post by: Mr X on September 04, 2019, 03:39:41 am
Found a bug, after I lost, it shows a message about luna living in the moon temple to the east and how to get to the moon palace by charging with your weapons. While the game just stops and wont start over so I have to reset manually

September 04, 2019, 03:43:05 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
I remember how I and my older brother did grind master ninjas for no end, because of that very thought. We had at that point all weapon orbs, except for the final Sword Orb.

Haha, you are not the only ones who did that, I too did that as a kid, I was like where the heck is the last sword orb, I remember all these hours I wasted in the mana fortress for nothing. Even the final weapons aren't any good just some slight strength increase, and combined with that low drop rate it was just a waste of time. But back then it was that feeling of completing everything 100%, but the last sword orb missing which never existed

Then came the internet and you of course would look for the 9th sword orb, showing you a glitch to get it  :laugh:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190902
Post by: hmsong on September 04, 2019, 04:01:33 am
An idea about what "New" Evil Gate will be like:

Evil Gate (10MP):   Damage = [(User Level) + (Magic Level x10)] x6
           (Max: 999) (Magic Level is 0~9) (Single-Target Only)

September 04, 2019, 06:35:03 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
I have an idea about the final Sword Orb drop -- Why not have one of the Mana Fortress bosses (Dread Slime) drop it?  That would solve everything.  And have all other Mana Fortress unique monsters remain as they were (so Tsunami would have the Spear Orb).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190902
Post by: Mr X on September 04, 2019, 07:16:59 am
An idea about what "New" Evil Gate will be like:

Evil Gate (10MP):   Damage = [(User Level) + (Magic Level x10)] x6
           (Max: 999) (Magic Level is 0~9) (Single-Target Only)

September 04, 2019, 06:35:03 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
I have an idea about the final Sword Orb drop -- Why not have one of the Mana Fortress bosses (Dread Slime) drop it?  That would solve everything.  And have all other Mana Fortress unique monsters remain as they were (so Tsunami would have the Spear Orb).

The problem with that is that the drops for the other weapon orbs would be lower while the sword would drop on the first try due to that being a boss

September 04, 2019, 07:22:49 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
This would be probably far from possible but maybe a secret super boss for the final sword orb would have been pretty cool, which can be fought after certain requirements are met.

September 04, 2019, 10:25:12 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Have you made changes to what some enemies cast as well? The rabilion enemy casted fireball a spell I have never seen it cast before, not that I mind just pointing out in case that was not intended

Another thing when I put the other two characters to charge their weapon to attack after their initial attack they stop attacking altogether unless I run then they charge their weapons again then repeat. Would be nice if this gets fixed.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190902
Post by: Queue on September 04, 2019, 03:58:44 pm
zoolgremlin, there's no intentional change to the slime bosses as far as I know; if there is a difference to them it's probably a side effect of... who knows what. Seriously, I can't think of anything that should interact with them specifically.

hmsong, reasonable suggestion on giving the Sword Orb to a fortress boss. My concern is that I don't like one being guaranteed while the others are random drops (personally, I hate when a game tries to foist one "best" item on you, especially if it's tied to the story like the sword in this game). Unless I can come up with something else I'm happy with though, this is the route I'll go. Will probably need a warning that Weapons_Progression_Balance + Fortress_Boss_Orb = Orb_Overflow_Event probably required.

Mr X, the Master Ninja's other drop (enemies only have two drops) is a fairly important piece of armor. Going to have to explore my options to make this work. It seems like there are specifically 7 fortress-only enemies, and each already has a weapon orb. Enemy table is full (as are lots of other data tables... this game is packed full to the brim), but I should be able to come up with something good. The current Turtlance orb scenario was a ~1 minute hack I did on a whim.

I can't reproduce the death script bug. The Luna hint was added near the end of the list of events, which is where some of the death message event stuff is, so it's at least logical that if something went wrong you'd see interference between them. Will need a reproducible scenario to pin this one down.

I didn't change any enemy attacks, spells, etc. Looks like Silktail AI can use 4 spells, 08, 07, 0B and 0C, which should be Energy Absorb, Acid Storm, Cure Water and Fireball. Not sure what all the conditions are that makes it cast Fireball, but one aspect is a random number with a low chance (if I'm reading things right). Several features in the patcher affect how often enemies make AI decisions, so depending on which options you have On/Off it could simply be that they hit that random chance check more often so it's more likely to occur than vanilla.

Thanks for the report on teammate charging.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190902
Post by: hmsong on September 04, 2019, 09:01:14 pm
Once again, thank you for replying so fast.

I figured out a LOT with the info you provided me.  Honestly.  I'll post what I have once I'm done.

Having said that, do you know what I address I should use to add Poison status to a spell?  Specifically, I want to add Poison status to Dark Force.  But I have no idea how.  I tried playing around with:

D0/341D: 0000   Status Effect

And changed <0000> to various numbers (ex: 0001, 0020, 0400, 8000, etc), but I couldn't get it to work.  Any idea?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190902
Post by: Mr X on September 05, 2019, 05:21:47 am

Mr X, the Master Ninja's other drop (enemies only have two drops) is a fairly important piece of armor. Going to have to explore my options to make this work. It seems like there are specifically 7 fortress-only enemies, and each already has a weapon orb. Enemy table is full (as are lots of other data tables... this game is packed full to the brim), but I should be able to come up with something good. The current Turtlance orb scenario was a ~1 minute hack I did on a whim.

I can't reproduce the death script bug. The Luna hint was added near the end of the list of events, which is where some of the death message event stuff is, so it's at least logical that if something went wrong you'd see interference between them. Will need a reproducible scenario to pin this one down.

I didn't change any enemy attacks, spells, etc. Looks like Silktail AI can use 4 spells, 08, 07, 0B and 0C, which should be Energy Absorb, Acid Storm, Cure Water and Fireball. Not sure what all the conditions are that makes it cast Fireball, but one aspect is a random number with a low chance (if I'm reading things right). Several features in the patcher affect how often enemies make AI decisions, so depending on which options you have On/Off it could simply be that they hit that random chance check more often so it's more likely to occur than vanilla.

Thanks for the report on teammate charging.

Hmm the metal crab drops the same armor that can be bought at Neko, maybe tweak the drops a bit? Or if you wanna be extra fancy, recoloring an enemy and give them different spells/hp stat, turning them into a new enemy for the final sword orb.

I see I guess a first for everything lol, when it casted fireball it caught me off guard haha. Speaking of, have you ever considered to change some bosses spells or add them additional spells?

Thank you for all the hard work! :beer:

September 05, 2019, 05:59:42 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Another thing I encountered when it comes to charge attacks, while charging if any spell be it defensive/healing or offensive gets cast it will reset the charging.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190902
Post by: hmsong on September 05, 2019, 09:17:44 am
Okay, here's what I have so far.  I name it, "Spell_Balance_Overhaul".  Please let me know what you think.

Description:
Following spells were changed:

-Cure Water   2MP --> 3MP (Cure Water is too OP -- makes cure items useless)
-Flame Saber   2MP --> 4MP (Engulf status is pretty useful)
+Blaze Wall   33PWR --> 43PWR (4MP spell shouldn't be the weakest spell in the game)
+Moon Energy   Target = One/All (There's no reason not to)
-Moon Energy   2MP --> 4MP (This is too OP for a 2MP spell)
+Light Saber   5MP --> 4MP (Even with Balloon patch, this is not 5MP worthy)
+Lucent Beam   61PWR/8MP --> 79PWR/4MP (8MP?  What the hell?)
-Lucid Barrier   4MP --> 6MP (This is powerful, and should match Wall)

-Freeze      61PWR --> 43PWR (It's a 2MP spell (and first spell), so its PWR should be weaker)
-Acid Rain   43PWR/3MP --> 61PWR/4MP (PWR/Cost went up)
-Energy Absorb   2MP --> 3MP (It does 43PWR and absorbs HP, so it should cost more)
-Fireball   52PWR --> 43PWR (It's a 2MP spell, so its PWR should be weaker)
+Lava Wave   43PWR --> 61PWR (It's a 3MP spell, so its PWR should be stronger)
+Exploder   61PWR --> 79PWR (It's a 4MP spell, so its PWR should be stronger)
+Thunderbolt   4MP --> 3MP (It's a 61PWR spell, so it should cost 3MP)
+Silence   2MP --> 1MP (Silence status from magic is not very useful)
+Sleep Flower   2MP --> 1MP (Sleep status from magic is not very useful)
-Burst      4MP --> 5MP (It's the most powerful spell (100PWR), so it should cost more)
-Dark Force   61PWR/2MP --> 79PWR/4MP (PWR/Cost went up)
+Dispel Magic   4MP --> 2MP (It only gets rid of buff/sabers/barriers)

Code: [Select]
&(mods)\Magic\spell_NewEffects\spellData_Changes
REQ Spell_Power_Tweaks
ASM <.asm>
&(mods)\Magic\spell_NewEffects\spellData_Changes\.asm

' freeze, power
@OFF $D02C5A
RAW 2B

' acid storm, power
@OFF $D02C9A
RAW 3D

' acid rain, cost
@OFF $D02C9F
RAW 04

' energy absorb, cost
@OFF $D02CDF
RAW 03

' cure water, cost
@OFF $D02D9F
RAW 03

' fireball, power
@OFF $D02DDA
RAW 2B

' explode, power
@OFF $D02E1A
RAW 4F

' lava wave, power
@OFF $D02E5A
RAW 3D

' flame saber, cost
@OFF $D02E9F
RAW 04

' blaze wall, power
@OFF $D02F1A
RAW 2B

' thunderbolt, cost
@OFF $D02F9F
RAW 03

' silence, cost
@OFF $D02FDF
RAW 01

' moon energy, target
@OFF $D03218
RAW 01

' moon energy, cost
@OFF $D0321F
RAW 04

' sleep flower, cost
@OFF $D0325F
RAW 01

' burst, cost
@OFF $D0329F
RAW 05

' dark force, power
@OFF $D0341A
RAW 4F

' dark force, cost
@OFF $D0341F
RAW 04

' dispel magic, cost
@OFF $D0345F
RAW 02

' light saber, cost
@OFF $D0349F
RAW 04

' lumina beam, power
@OFF $D034DA
RAW 4F

' lumina beam, cost
@OFF $D034DF
RAW 04

' lucid barrier, cost
@OFF $D0351F
RAW 06

I still can't figure out how to add Poison status to Dark Force.  Please let me know if you can figure it out.

Also, I thought "Magic Recharge" could have roughly the same amount of short/medium/long magic recharge spells.  It also makes it so that there is at least one Short or Medium spell recharge per each group of spells, just to make "level-up" magics slightly less frustrating.  This is, of course, up to you, since you're the original creator.

Code: [Select]
&(mods)\Magic\magicRecharging\table\tbl_magicRechargeTime.asm

@OFF tbl_magicRechargeTime[]

ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_LONG ' Earth Slide
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_MEDIUM ' Gem Missile
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_SHORT ' Speed Down

ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_SHORT ' Stone Saber
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_SHORT ' Speed Up
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_SHORT ' Defender


ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_MEDIUM ' Freeze
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_LONG ' Acid Storm
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_MEDIUM ' Energy Absorb

ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_SHORT ' Ice Saber
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_MEDIUM ' Remedy
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_LONG ' Cure Water


ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_MEDIUM ' Fireball
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_LONG ' Exploder
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_LONG ' Lava Wave

ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_SHORT ' Flame Saber
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_LONG ' Fire Bouquet
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_LONG ' Blaze Wall


ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_MEDIUM ' Air Blast
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_LONG ' Thunderbolt
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_MEDIUM ' Silence

ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_SHORT ' Thunder Saber
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_MEDIUM ' Balloon
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_SHORT ' Analyzer


ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_MEDIUM ' Change Form
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_MEDIUM ' MP Absorb
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_LONG ' Lunar Magic

ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_SHORT ' Moon Saber
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_SHORT ' Lunar Boost
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_MEDIUM ' Moon Energy


ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_MEDIUM ' Sleep Flower
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_LONG ' Burst
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_SHORT ' Mana Magic

ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_LONG ' Revivifer
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_MEDIUM ' Wall
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_SHORT ' Mana Magic


ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_LONG ' Evil Gate
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_LONG ' Dark Force
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_SHORT ' Dispel Magic

ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_SHORT ' Light Saber
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_LONG ' Lucent Beam
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_MEDIUM ' Lucid Barrier

I must say, I learned a lot.  Hopefully, I can experiment with other things.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190902
Post by: Mr X on September 05, 2019, 09:38:11 am
Tbh Moon energy is pretty op too, I don't mind it being only single ally.

Also Acid storm is a spell that lowers magic/physical defense, I wouldn't make this spell more powerful than freeze. What I would do instead make this spell be useful for that purpose. For example for some bosses have them with high defense or magic defense or both so you would cast this spell to lower it down then be able to harm them. Gorgon Bull for example, have his natural magic/physical defense higher, cast acid storm then proceed with with sylphid magic to hit for more damage after lowering his defense. He also casts defense up so he can counter back again, and effects run out in this game too so you repeat the strategy, power up your team and all that. Or have the enemies with high natural agility/speed so use gnomes magic to slow the boss and raise your own to hit the boss physically.

Another spell to utilize properly is fire boquet to lower the boss offensive capabilities or spell power, have one with high offensive power and make use of that+defense up or barrier if you have lumina.

It would make boss fights more interesting being sometimes even forced to use certain spells like that.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190902
Post by: pftmclub on September 05, 2019, 12:16:02 pm
Quote
pftmclub, not likely. While I think Trials of Mana is visually beautiful, I don't actually like it very much. It surprises me how different a game it is from Secret of Mana (in ways I don't like) while being superficially so similar.

Oh That's kinda sad. I understand the different in way you don't like, it's just Trials of mana could have better and beautiful combo system if this game is hacked by you !
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190902
Post by: SpiffSpoo on September 05, 2019, 02:20:25 pm
It would probably be better to add poison to "Sleep" Flower to actually make it useful, and the fact that Dryad has Poison Bubble as a spell in SD3.

You could lower the healing value of cure water more, even with 3 MP it is still very strong.

Not sure if you could modify the values for multi-targeting to make those stronger/weaker on a per spell basis.

Would be cool if a dark or leaf saber could be implemented, but it would probably be too much work to do.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190902
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 05, 2019, 04:22:13 pm
@Queue  Thanks for your reply regarding the Lime/Dread Slimes.  It's possible that they still have the same invincibility frames (I think there's a particular way in which they work, but you might already know), and being able to attack more frequently, due to [Turbo_Mode] or [Double_Stamina_Regen], probably means the AI-controlled characters' attacks get around the I-frames more often.  I will look into it more, but I think that's the side effect.  Cheers!  :woot!:

On the topic of map oddities, I have no further issues to report at this time.  I did notice some odd discoloration on the background used during the Pure Land event, where the characters see the Mana Tree in the distance, but backgrounds are presumably separate from maps.  So I won't report any details on that unless you decide you want to know.  I'm just getting used to using a hex editor, to locate the lookup tables for weapons, spells, monster stats, etc.  That'll keep me from rambling on for a while!  Hope you have a good one...  8)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190902
Post by: hmsong on September 05, 2019, 07:07:20 pm
@Queue
I noticed something.  For Magic Recharge, the "timer" for the spells differ, depending on the animation of spell.  Specifically, the timer starts when the spell animation starts.  So, for spells like Freeze, Earth Slide, or Cure Water, the timer starts instantly.  However, for spells like Sabers, Fireball, or Air Blast, the last of "magic bolts" needs to hit to start the second phase of the animation.  And the 2nd animation restarts the timer.

Long story short, the "magic bolt" spells take longer time to recharge.  All the more reason to make the basic 43PWR spells Medium Recharge spells.  It wouldn't make sense for them to take longer to recharge than higher-tier spells.

I also found an upside to the Lv9 spells:  The timer starts while the rest of the world is frozen -- meaning, you are technically recharging faster.  Well, not all spells.  I know Explode and Burst don't recharge immediately, so they will start recharging after the animation is over.  There's probably more.

@Mr X
Changed Moon Energy to 4MP (instead of original 2MP).  Yeah, it's pretty OP.  Having said that, You're not gonna use Moon Energy on everyone.  You'll most likely use on one target only.

I guess it may make Acid Storm too powerful.  The thing is, I don't use that Acid Storm's extra buff patch, because I didn't like how there's no "description box for lowered M.Def" thing.  Then again, that's why I added an extra MP Cost (61 PWR magic is usually 3MP, but Acid Storm is 4MP).  I also wanted to make the frequent magic users (ex: Silktail, Captain Duck) a bit more dangerous.  I even made Lucent Beam more powerful to make the final boss more difficult.  I'll have to think about this, but making Freeze = 61PWR/3MP and Acid Storm = 43/3MP and HP Absorb = 43/3MP... they all have 3MP, and I wanted to avoid that.

I actually wanted to keep Lucent Beam at 61 PWR, but add lowers Accuracy/Evasion (it blinds the target, and makes Mana Magic against Mana Beast less effective).  And wanted to keep Dark Force at 61 PWR and give Poison status.  And I wanted to keep Explode at 61 PWR (at 3MP), but at the same time, make Lava Wave to 43PWR/4MP, but add Petrify.  Obviously, I wasn't able to do any of those.  Acid Storm, Fire Bouquet, and Blaze Wall all adds something other than pure damage, but even after looking at those, I can't figure it out.  I seriously wish I can figure out how to add status to spells (or have someone help me to figure it out).  Hence, waiting for Queue (my teacher).

I also wanted to make Burst cost HP (50 HP) instead of MP, but I doubt anyone can figure that out.  It is suppose to be a self-destruction magic (remember Pumpkin Bomb?).  Any less than 50 HP seems too small (hell, even the number display font is smaller).  Or takes 10% recoil damage.

@SpiffSpoo
I didn't want to make Cure Water weaker, because that'll make enemies' Cure Water weaker too.  Remember how annoying Bite Lizard is?  Still, I may consider that and make it into 43/3MP, since Cure Water ignores Defense (or so I heard).

If I remember correctly, a game sprite (enemy or ally) can only have ONE status effects done.  So sleeping and poison cannot be done at the same time.  You can have a status effect and a buff/debuff at the same time though.

Just so you know, I'm not Queue, who is probably some kind of programming wizard.  I can modify existing things if Queue guides me (he did so with the spell modification), but beyond that...
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190902
Post by: Mr X on September 06, 2019, 01:59:24 am

@Mr X
I guess it may make Acid Storm too powerful.  The thing is, I don't use that Acid Storm's extra buff patch, because I didn't like how there's no "description box for lowered M.Def" thing.  Then again, that's why I added an extra MP Cost (61 PWR magic is usually 3MP, but Acid Storm is 4MP).  I also wanted to make the frequent magic users (ex: Silktail, Captain Duck) a bit more dangerous.  I even made Lucent Beam more powerful to make the final boss more difficult.  I'll have to think about this, but making Freeze = 61PWR/3MP and Acid Storm = 43/3MP and HP Absorb = 43/3MP... they all have 3MP, and I wanted to avoid that.

I actually wanted to keep Lucent Beam at 61 PWR, but add lowers Accuracy/Evasion (it blinds the target, and makes Mana Magic against Mana Beast less effective).  And wanted to keep Dark Force at 61 PWR and give Poison status.  And I wanted to keep Explode at 61 PWR (at 3MP), but at the same time, make Lava Wave to 43PWR/4MP, but add Petrify.  Obviously, I wasn't able to do any of those.  Acid Storm, Fire Bouquet, and Blaze Wall all adds something other than pure damage, but even after looking at those, I can't figure it out.  I seriously wish I can figure out how to add status to spells (or have someone help me to figure it out).  Hence, waiting for Queue (my teacher).

I also wanted to make Burst cost HP (50 HP) instead of MP, but I doubt anyone can figure that out.  It is suppose to be a self-destruction magic (remember Pumpkin Bomb?).  Any less than 50 HP seems too small (hell, even the number display font is smaller).  Or takes 10% recoil damage.


I like your idea of lucent Beam. But why dark force and poison status? Isn't the dark element supposed to be based of dark matter, or black holes, or void and things like that?

I would go with percentage of your maximum hp so that's more friendly with low level runners too.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190902
Post by: hmsong on September 06, 2019, 02:53:13 am
Quote
Replacing enemies with chests is Kethinov's thing. If there are some accidentally unreachable chests I'll move them in-bounds, but the two existing features related to weapon orbs already handle bumping orb availability. Part of my reluctance is that you don't just put in a chest that contains an orb, you put in a chest that contains a specific level orb, which means having to verify the correct orb count for that weapon at that point in the game, and modifying any orb chests for that weapon type that come later in the game.

From time to time in Grand Palace, there is a chest stuck in an unreachable waters on one of the floors (the chest contains the 6th Sword Orb - for the 7th Sword).  If I re-enter few times, it gets back on the bridge (or vice versa).  I'm pretty certain it has something to do with the "3 enemies per screen" limit.

September 06, 2019, 02:55:35 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
@Mr X

Poison was so underused in the game.  There's no way to inflict Poison onto enemies, other than one of the lower Glove and a lower Boomerang.  No spell, no Saber, nothing.  I figured I want to "utilize the underused thing".

September 06, 2019, 03:39:17 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
@Quote

You told me that anything after <'> in one line would be ignored, such as:

Code: [Select]
' acid storm, power
But what about things like these?:

Code: [Select]
'ADR.16 $C8BF38 '[ F5: Dark Lich]
' RAW B8 01 87 90 10 EB 7046

Are they being ignored?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190902
Post by: Mr X on September 06, 2019, 03:49:13 am
From time to time in Grand Palace, there is a chest stuck in an unreachable waters on one of the floors (the chest contains the 6th Sword Orb - for the 7th Sword).  If I re-enter few times, it gets back on the bridge (or vice versa).  I'm pretty certain it has something to do with the "3 enemies per screen" limit.

September 06, 2019, 02:55:35 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
@Mr X

Poison was so underused in the game.  There's no way to inflict Poison onto enemies, other than one of the lower Glove and a lower Boomerang.  No spell, no Saber, nothing.  I figured I want to "utilize the underused thing".

In a way you could say the Girl as a much better alternative than the poison status, by engulfing the enemies, they can't move they would be at your mercy as their hp drops too. Or Burst could be another alternative for poison if you really want to do it, or even Lava Wave makes sense too more than void like magic having it.

But then again you have blaze wall for a better alternative than that, except the fire immune enemies I guess, but you wont need it on them anyway there aren't that many of them. Instead make it lower another stat of the enemy. Or make dispel magic remove the lucid barrier too, as far as I am aware that spell doesn't remove it, dark force being purely a powerful dark based spell, with the evil gate working just like in Turbo for high mp cost.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190902
Post by: Queue on September 06, 2019, 04:23:42 am
I should have time to do a full reply tomorrow, but the short explanation of why setting the spell's data to include a status effect value does nothing is because most damaging spells run a function that doesn't read the status effect value from the spell's data.

In bank 0x08 is a pointer table at $C8E801, 42 entries long (one per spell), 2 bytes each, to specify the spell function to be called by each spell. The damage-only spells have the value 0x8BEA, which is little-endian order 0xEA8B, which is the 16-bit address for $C8EA8B, which is a spell casting function that only applies damage. $C8EBE5 is a spell casting function that applies damage and status effects; it's used by Blaze Wall. If you change a given damage only spell's function pointer in the table at $C8E801 from $C8EA8B (0x8BEA) to $C8EBE5 (0xE5EB) then that spell will also apply a status effect.

Dark Force is the 38th spell. 38 -1 (since spell #1 is at offset 0), so 37 * 2 (each entry is 2 bytes) = 74, convert to hexadecimal = 0x4A, $C8E801 + 0x4A = $C8E84B, change the two bytes at $C8E84B from 0x8BEA to 0xE5EB, make sure the spell data in bank 0x10 includes the poison status effect (or whatever) and you'll get the behavior you're wanting, probably. Anyway, time for bed; yes, this was the short version. -_-

P.S.
You told me that anything after <'> in one line would be ignored, such as:
Code: [Select]
' acid storm, powerBut what about things like these?:
Code: [Select]
'ADR.16 $C8BF38 '[ F5: Dark Lich]
' RAW B8 01 87 90 10 EB 7046
Are they being ignored?
Yes, those lines are ignored.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190902
Post by: hmsong on September 06, 2019, 10:50:01 am
@Queue
Thank you for that.  What you said is barely registering in my mind, but I suppose I shall... try.  Oh boy.  Also, according to Mr X, Dispel does not get rid of Lucid Barrier (even though it gets rid of Wall).  Any idea how to change things so that Dispel (therefore Magical Herb) gets rid of Lucid Barrier too?

@Mr X
I'm aware Engulf is better than Poison.  I just want something... anything, to inflict Poison status.  Burst can work too, but since that's the most powerful spell, I don't want to make it even more deadly.  Unless I can make it use HP instead of MP (I really want to do that).

Oh wow, I did not know Dispel does not neutralize Lucid Barrier, even though it gets rid of Wall.  I don't even know how to change that.


September 06, 2019, 08:02:43 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Bug (?) Report:

Moon Saber:  HP gained from absorbing doesn't affect your HP until an enemy dies (or you are damaged).  This may be only graphical, since if I get damaged, I initially gain the HP I absorbed before, then subtract the damaged HP amount.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190902
Post by: Queue on September 07, 2019, 12:36:49 am
The Moon Saber issue is only graphical. I need to figure out how to safely trigger a UI refresh during the Moon Saber lifetap code.

Did reproduce the AI teammates going dumb after a charge attack.

I only had enough time to play with the Mana Fortress Sword Orb, didn't wind up with time for the forums today. =/
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190902
Post by: hmsong on September 07, 2019, 03:37:58 am
Take your time.  You own this patch.  You decide pretty much everything. =)

Btw, I tried to follow what you told me about inputting Poison to Dark Force... and the only thing I was able to follow was that Dark Force code is 37 (which in hex is 25).

The original code for Blaze Wall and Dark Force are:

Code: [Select]
{11: Blaze Wall}
D0/2EE0: E085 9805 9805 A805 {Gfx}Elemental
D0/2EE8: 8D00 EA6A 0000 568F 8D00 EA6A 0000 568F {Gfx}Low
D0/2EF8: 8D00 146B 0000 718F 8D00 146B 0000 718F {Gfx}Mid
D0/2F08: 8D00 406B 0000 858F 8D00 406B 0000 858F {Gfx}High
D0/2F18: 81 Target
D0/2F19: 00 (UNUSED)
D0/2F1A: 20 Power
D0/2F1B: 4B Accuracy
D0/2F1C: 08 Element
D0/2F1D: 0040 Status Effect
D0/2F1F: 04 Cost

{25: Dark Force}
D0/33E0: 4A86 F906 F906 F906 {Gfx}Elemental
D0/33E8: 9700 466E E495 F794 9700 466E E495 F794 {Gfx}Low
D0/33F8: 9700 7C6E E495 6095 9700 7C6E E495 6095 {Gfx}Mid
D0/3408: 970E 7C6E E495 E495 970E 7C6E E495 E495 {Gfx}High
D0/3418: 81 Target
D0/3419: 00 (UNUSED)
D0/341A: 3D Power
D0/341B: 4B Accuracy
D0/341C: 10 Element
D0/341D: 0000 Status Effect
D0/341F: 02 Cost

Now, could you run through what you were saying again?  I wasn't able to follow.  Where is E801?  Or EBE5?  I think I sort of got...
Quote
Dark Force is the 38th spell. 38 -1 (since spell #1 is at offset 0), so 37 * 2 (each entry is 2 bytes) = 74, convert to hexadecimal = 0x4A, $C8E801 + 0x4A = $C8E84B,
But anything after that, I don't really get.  Or before that.  Using Blaze Wall and Dark Force as an example, could you please go over again?  I'm sorry that I am terrible at understanding these, but I am so lost.

After you do what you need to do first, of course.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190902
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 08, 2019, 12:17:07 am
@Queue  You made my whole week when you posted about the spell pointer table earlier.  I mapped out that table and the spell data table in Wordpad, so I could format it with a colour system to designate each Elemental.  I also used the info you gave to make Lunar Magic and Evil Gate into damage-only spells, instead of them using Square's crappy special algorithms.  What a blast... thank you so much.   :woot!:

I'm reading through all your old Posts to see what else you have requested help with, haven't got very far with that just yet, but I noticed your first Turbo post asking about bugs in Vanilla.  The only bug in Vanilla that I can think of, that hasn't already been mentioned or addressed, is something I was reminded of when searching the maps for issues.  I've known about this for years, but never seen any mention of it on the Internet.  Which I thought was very odd, surely I can't be the only person in the world who's run into this.   :huh:

It's exactly like the [Wind_Temple_Entrance_Trap], only in the Pure Land.  I'm gonna post a screenshot of it in the [Tidy_Maps] folder, even though this is not exactly a tidy maps issue, it's number 022.  Characters are standing on the exact spot.  It's in the long cave just before the Axe Beak battle arena.

That's all for now, will let you get on with things while I read through your other posts.   8)

Link again:  Secret of Mana Screenshots (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1YMA_Z9LHj7wNPyd2z03uDDA6WesoUo-2?usp=sharing)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190908
Post by: Queue on September 08, 2019, 03:45:55 pm
Version 2019-09-08:
https://ufile.io/9jksebfj (https://ufile.io/9jksebfj)

Changes:
- Improved Magic\Magic_Recharging description
- Second attempt at Items\Farmable_Sword_Orb; adds an out-of-the-way new teleporter in the Mana Fortress (shouldn't be hard to find) to send you to a new room to fight the now functional unused enemy, which now can drop a Sword Orb
- Changed Items\Mana_Fortress_Rarity_Swap to no longer affect Turtlances
- Changed Miscellaneous\Day_Night_Cycle to no longer replace Eggplant Man with Metal Crab at night (since Metal Crab has a weapon orb)
- Implemented Graphics\Retouched_Characters; fixes some color issues with the Girl which also happens to improve Functional_Fashion; stamina recharge / poisoned status palettes haven't yet been adjusted to accommodate
- Implemented Bug_Fixes\Pure_Land_Cave_Trap
- Tidy Map treatment for:
-- Axe Beak's fight room
-- Mana Fortress A (first interior area)
-- Witch's Castle Monty Hall (interior room with three doors north)
-- Kakkara Desert (north, east and west exits; south not changed yet)
-- Ice Palace Library



Mr X, weapon charge being reset when a spell hits a character should be vanilla behavior. Might not be pleasant, but don't think that one counts as a bug.

I think what I hammered out for the Sword Orb is pretty neat, will be curious what you think of it. I used the single unused enemy (apparently there was one), wrote a new AI script for it (it essentially didn't have one) then did some sorta funky stuff to get it animating without looking too glitchy. I can likely polish up its AI and animations further, but I got it to a usable state, unless someone finds some outright bugs with it. I intentionally set it up to have weird rules to fight successfully; it might take some experimenting to figure out how to kill it instead of it despawning (the despawning animation is a glitchy looking mess at the moment). If it does the "splat" death animation it was successfully killed; if it flies apart in a cloud of glitchy graphics, it despawned.

zoolgremlin, thanks again for all the map screenshots, they've been extremely helpful. I wasn't aware of that sticky wall in the Pure Land tunnel; it's now fixed. It was a simple one thankfully: one of the diagonal wall tiles was the wrong type which looks just like the others but is a different "height" where it's intended to be used for a plateau after going up stairs, etc. Your characters could walk onto it, which changed their height and then they couldn't step back off of it down to the normal lower height (without a staircase or other height transitioning tile). I just had to change it to the normal angled corner piece. There was a similar but opposite tile issue in Axe Beak's room, where there was an unwalkable angled corner because they used the lower height version where it should have been the upper.

As for "backgrounds" those are just like any other map, but set to scroll at a weird rate as you move around, but they're essentially no different on the data side of things, so feel free to point out any graphical issue with them as well.

SpiffSpoo, I've wanted to turn Evil Gate into, say, Evil Saber, but sabers are a fairly hard coded mess, so I haven't gotten to it (lots of work for dubious result). Mana Magic is functionally the Dryad saber spell, so what I'd likely do, if I ever get to it, is put mana tapping on Evil Saber, so the sprite could bestow a means of gaining mana on the girl (even if it doesn't jive with game lore on element logic, etc.), and so the last element missing a saber spell would be accounted for. Oh right, also, since enemies can use Evil Gate, that's another reason I hadn't gotten to it yet; turning it into a buff would likely necessitate some AI changes.

I wonder if Sleep Flower being sleep + poison at the same time would be functional. I hope someone tries that; doubt it would be worth casting unless poison is changed to percentage health damage or something, but at least conceptually that sounds usable.

hmsong, thanks for the info on magic recharge timings with different spell animation varieties; that makes a very good argument for overhauling the recharge timings to compensate for the varied behavior.

I like what you're going for with your adjustments to spells; homogeny is super boring so I appreciate that you're not just overly normalizing everything, and conversely having a stand-out best is super boring... obviously it's a fine line to walk, sometimes the best result is when things aren't master planned (e.g. Terraria vs. Starbound, Destiny vs. Destiny 2, etc.; i.e. the master planned one being less compelling than the one that was haphazardly tuned). For some of the vanilla values, I suspect the reasoning was things like "the girl isn't an offensive caster, so if she's going to use attack magic it'll have an MP cost penalty" or "maybe the hardest enemies are weak to light magic so lucent beam will be extra costly" (whether or not enemy resists reflect this). I generally avoid rebalancing games I play (I like working within the constraints someone else comes up with) but sometimes it's unavoidable in the course of making other changes (which from me tend to be bug fixes, aesthetic or base gameplay mechanics in nature). My point being, I'll be happy to include what you do, but I don't really want to have too much input on the final values since I'll hopefully want to play using them.

I wholeheartedly agree with your reasoning on poison. It's boomerang 6, the Cobra Shuttle, that has poison. I usually keep that one for its novelty (and because the Nintendo Power art for it was a tomahawk; a boomeranging tomahawk seemed cool to 1994 me).

Most likely the chest issue in the Grand Palace you mention is due to the 3 enemy limit. Chests are an NPC, and in combat areas, the NPC limit is 3 (9 in non-combat areas like towns, which is primarily why towns have bad framerate). This is part of why I have Kethinov's Gaia's Navel chest off by default.



Okay, let's see if I can explain the next step in changing spells. I'm going to lay out some foundational explanations first.

- Addresses and Offsets

In computer terms, an address is a number that specifies the location of data. An offset is a number added to an address to determine the location of data.

In certain circumstances (especially for data within a file), the offset is the primary information you need to locate the data you want.

The SNES has a 24-bit address space, which means it understands numbers from 0x000000 to 0xFFFFFF, so offsets and addresses will only include 6 hexadecimal digits in this post (more typical with modern computing is 8 digit (4 bytes, 32-bit) or 16 digit (8 bytes, 64-bit) addresses).

Common SNES assembly syntax has $ denote a hexadecimal number and # denote a literal number (and often combines them as #$ to mean a literal hexadecimal number). In other domains of software, 0x usually denotes a hexadecimal number. The ZPS patcher the Turbo project uses has an atypical variation of SNES assembly syntax, where $ specifically denotes an address, and # specifically denotes a literal number, all numbers are hexadecimal, and #$ isn't recognized. The ZPS patcher also uses un-prefixed hexadecimal numbers for its RAW and COPY commands (e.g. RAW 00 10 ABCD 32 999999, etc., it strips out spaces).

I will be using $000000 (6 digits) to denote SNES memory addresses, 0x000000 (6 digits) to denote offsets within the ROM file, 0x00 or 0x0000 (2 or 4 digits) to denote hexadecimal numbers in general, and # only in ZPS code examples (if any).

When talking about file offsets or memory addresses for editing SNES ROMs, a file offset is going to be what number byte into a file the data is located at, and a memory address is going to be what address in SNES memory the current ROM is at. Secret of Mana is a HiROM game, meaning its ROM file, when mapped in the SNES address space, is at the values $C00000 to $FFFFFF; with a 4 MB ROM, which is 0x400000 bytes, file offset 0 (0x000000) corresponds to SNES memory address $C00000, 0x000001 to $C00001, and so on, up to 0x3FFFFF = $FFFFFF. If you edit byte 0x101000 in the Secret of Mana ROM, then load that ROM, that changed byte will be at memory address $D01000. The conversion is as straightforward as adding or subtracting 0xC00000.

The ZPS patcher expects all addresses to be specified in HiROM address form, so
Code: [Select]
@OFF $D01000
RAW 00
in the ZPS file will write the value 0x00 to file offset 0x101000 in the output ROM file.

- Byte Order Endianness

The SNES is a little-endian architecture, meaning if you have a 16-bit or 24-bit value, the byte order goes from lowest to highest, left to right. The ROM data 0x34 0x12, if used as a 16-bit value, will mean 0x1234. The address $C01020, will be 0x20 0x10 0xC0 in ROM data. This is only relevant for data that is read directly as a 16-bit or 24-bit value; data that is used one byte at a time will still effectively go in the order you expect.

See the Wikipedia article on Endianness for further info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness)

This will matter when hex editing a ROM by hand, or when specifying 16-bit or 24-bit numbers (such as addresses) using ZPS's RAW command.

When assembling instructions or using the ADR command, the ZPS syntax allows you to enter numbers in 16-bit or 24-bit form and puts the bytes in the correct order for you.

As an example, consider the status effect value in the spell data: 0x2000 is poison, but you had to type it as 0x00 0x20 due to that 16-bit value being stored in little-endian order.

- Banks

While the SNES has a 24-bit address space, most of its instructions don't accept full 24-bit addresses. Instead, most of its instructions only specify the lower 16-bits of a full 24-bit address, and use the same highest 8-bits when using an address. This current highest 8-bits is called the data bank (simply bank from here on).

So, if some code wants to read the value at $D01000, it might use
Code: [Select]
LDA $D01000but if the bank is set to 0xD0, it could use
Code: [Select]
LDA $1000and it would read the same byte. There's also an even shorter form where you only specify the lowest byte, but I won't cover that at this time as it won't be relevant.

Secret of Mana's code and data are split up all over the place in its ROM, but related code and or data is often located within the same 0x10000 range of bytes: within the same bank. For example, all enemy AI scripts are between file offsets 0x110000 and 0x11FFFF (addresses $D10000 and $D1FFFF), which is bank 0x11 (because the highest byte of the file offset corresponding to the data is 0x11). It would probably make more sense to call it bank 0xD1 because banks are more relevant for memory address than file offsets, but other people decided to number the banks based on the file offsets, so that's what we'll use here as well.

If I say X is located in bank 0x10 and Y is located in bank 0x11, I mean X is somewhere between 0x100000 and 0x10FFFF and Y is somewhere between 0x110000 and 0x11FFFF.

- Software Isn't Magic

The game has spell data in bank 0x10, starting at offset 0x102AA0 in 64 byte (0x40 byte) blocks of data that share a common layout.

You've noticed that in each 64 byte block, the last three bytes specify the status effect and mana cost, but that changing the status effect value didn't seem to do anything. This is because just because that data is there, doesn't mean some programming actually reads and uses it.

When you choose a spell to cast, the game executes some code that reads an address that specifies more code to execute that then may or may not read some of the spell data. A list of addresses that specify chunks of code is generally called a function table. When you cast a spell, the game uses the number of the spell to specify which entry in the function table (which entry in the list) to read; the entry itself is a 16-bit address that specifies the next phase of code to be executed to make the spell happen. All of the damage only spells have the same 16-bit address entry for the code that performs a "cast a damage only spell" and that code never reads the status effect value in the spell data. To make a spell do damage and apply a status effect, this address entry in the spell function table must be changed from "cast a damage only spell" to "cast a damage + status effect spell" which in vanilla is only Blaze Wall.

That paragraph isn't the most simple of explanations, so please go over it a few times in case it doesn't make sense on the first read.

- Making Magic

Okay, so the function table for spells is in bank 0x08, specifically at 0x08E801. It has 42 entries (because there are 42 spells) that are 2-bytes each. Each 2 bytes is a 16-bit address specifying the location of code that is also located in bank 0x08.

The first spell is Earth Slide, so the first entry in the spell function table is for the code that performs "cast a damage only spell" which is located at 0x08EA8B (memory address $C8EA8B). I've kept saying it's a list of 16-bit addresses; this means it's only the low 2 bytes of the address, so 0xEA8B. Because the SNES is little-endian, in the ROM, that 16-bit address is specified in little-endian order, so the bytes at 0x08E801 is 0x8B 0xEA. This is crucial to understand. For the sake of the changes you want, it doesn't matter why the code at 0x08EA8B is "cast a damage only spell"; it matters that you understand how the function table specifies that address value.

Blaze Wall is the 17th spell. Notice that while Earth Slide is the 1st spell, and the function table is at 0x08E801, the address + offset for the Earth Slide entry is 0x08E801 + 0. This is called zero-indexing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-based_numbering (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-based_numbering)). The first entry is 0, not 1. This is because, in programming, it's very common to have a list of things, but the first thing is zero distance from the beginning of a list. While you can count the entries however you want, the code that actually accesses the function table starts with the address of the table (0x08E801) then adds an offset relative to the spell's number. Every entry in the function table is a 16-bit address, so 2 bytes. That means the calculation is to take the spell's number (where Earth Slide is 0) and multiply it by two, then add it to the address of the table.



>> Continued two posts down. <<
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190908
Post by: hmsong on September 08, 2019, 09:37:26 pm
Yikes.  I have some... experimenting to do.  Please continue.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190908
Post by: Queue on September 08, 2019, 09:40:40 pm
^^ Continued from two posts up. ^^



Blaze Wall is the 17th spell; that means its zero-based number is 16 (0x10). Multiplied by two is 32 (0x20). 0x08E801 + 0x20 = 0x08E821, which is the file offset of the 16-bit address, in little-endian order, of the code that is executed when you cast Blaze Wall ("cast a damage + status effect spell"). The bytes at 0x08E821 are 0xCA 0xEB, which is a 16-bit value is 0xEBCA, which is referring to 0x08EBCA ($C8EBCA).

If we wanted to add a status effect to Earth Slide, we'd want to change the value at 0x08E801 + 0x00 (0x08E801) from 0xEA8B to 0xEBCA. Rmember that the bytes are in little-endian order. In a hex editor, you'd change the byte at 0x08E801 from 0x8B to 0xCA, and the byte at 0x08E802 from 0xEA to 0xEB. In ZPS syntax, you'd use either:
Code: [Select]
@OFF $C8E801
RAW CAEB
or
Code: [Select]
@OFF $C8E801
ADR.16 $C8EBCA

The second one is clearer, avoids entering the address in little-endian order by hand, and clarifies the bank even if it isn't used (ADR.16 only stores the low 16-bits of the value and discards the bank value 8-bits).

In ZPS syntax, @OFF is how you specify where (specified as an SNES memory address which it subtracts 0xC00000 from to get the file offset) within the ROM you want to overwrite with new data.

Dark Force is the 38th spell. Zero-indexed, 37th, multiplied by two, 74, converted to hexadecimal 0x4A. 0x08E801 + 0x4A = 0x08E84B. 0x08E84B ($C8E84B) is the location of the entry in the function table for Dark Force, where you'll see the bytes are 0x8B 0xEA, the same as Earth Slide (both of them are damage-only spells). If you make the same change to this entry that I gave as an example for Earth Slide, it should add status effect capability to Dark Force.




There wasn't terribly much else but this wraps up (hopefully) the explanation. Don't hesitate to ask for clarifications.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190908
Post by: hmsong on September 09, 2019, 03:30:52 am
Aye.... Okay, I half-understood what you were saying, but not all the way (which means I'm still lost).  I get that 0x08E801 +<spell code x2> is the one you should look for.  But the code after that, I don't understand.

Specifically, you used Earth Slide as an example.  I get that 0x08E801 +<00 x2> = 0x08E801 (we'll call this the #S for now).  But how did you get 0x08EA8B?  Specifically, I did not understand:
Quote
Because the SNES is little-endian, in the ROM, that 16-bit address is specified in little-endian order, so the bytes at 0x08E801 is 0x8B 0xEA.

But I assume you just find the #S, and replace that with EA8B (for <only damage>) or EBCA (for <damage + status effect>?  So, if I wanted to make Dark Force into <damage + status effect>, then I do this?
Code: [Select]
@OFF $C8E84B
ADR.16 $C8EBCA

then do this to add poison:
Code: [Select]
@OFF $D0341D
RAW 2000

Or did I understand it wrong?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190908
Post by: Queue on September 09, 2019, 04:07:55 am
Quote from: hmsong
But how did you get 0x08EA8B?
In the unmodified ROM, at file offset 0x08E801 are the two bytes 0x8B and 0xEA; so that's where that value comes from. They're in little-endian order, so those two bytes are the 16-bit value 0xEA8B. Because I already know this is a table of function pointers, I know this is the 16-bit address for $C8EA8B, and because it's the function Earth Slide calls I know it's the "cast a damage only spell" function.

Knowing that Blaze Wall does both damage and a status effect, we look up the Blaze Wall entry in the table at 0x08E801 + 16 * 2, and copy its entry over a damage only spell's entry to change the damage only spell into a damage + status spell like Blaze Wall.

Quote from: hmsong
then I do this?
Code: [Select]
@OFF $C8E84B
ADR.16 $C8EBCA
then do this to add poison:
Code: [Select]
@OFF $D0341D
RAW 2000
Or did I understand it wrong?
The first code block should be correct, but the second has the byte endianness issue to take into account. Status effects are a 16-bit value, so poison is 0x2000. Which means you'll be manually reordering the bytes to 0x00 0x20. In ZPS syntax, you can manually order the bytes using RAW (RAW 00 20).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190908
Post by: hmsong on September 09, 2019, 04:30:44 am
Quote
The first code block should be correct, but the second has the byte endianness issue to take into account. Status effects are a 16-bit value, so poison is 0x2000. Which means you'll be manually reordering the bytes to 0x00 0x20. In ZPS syntax, you can manually order the bytes using RAW (RAW 00 20).

Hmm.  I applied:
Code: [Select]
@OFF $C8E84B
ADR.16 $C8EBCA

@OFF $D0341D
RAW 00 20

And I got Attack Down, instead of Poison.  Do I just play around with "RAW   00 20" until I figure something out?  Strangely, I'm looking at Fire Bouquet (which has Attack Down), and its status code (D0/2EDD) is 0000.  Any idea why it's 0000?

Or was I supposed to do:
Code: [Select]
@OFF $D0341D
RAW 00

@OFF $D0341E
RAW 20

Also, if I get things like M.Def Down (which is not displayed in the dialog box), how do I know that M.Def is down?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190908
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 09, 2019, 05:05:49 am
Hi, everyone.  Sorry not to have posted sooner about the latest discussion points.  I had an appointment to meet someone today and only got back from that 1.5 hours ago.  Four hours to get to and from a meeting point is not an ordinary part of my life, phew...   ::)

@Queue  Alrighty then!  I have noted what you said about backgrounds and there is a screenshot of what I saw in the folder with all the others (number 023).  The bit that looks wrong to me is between the blue lines.  Basically the tiles there appear discoloured, or in some way not part of the mountains.  Everything else seems normal.

Also, I saw the comment addressed to SpiffSpoo about Sleep Flower.  I am all set up to try adding Poison or other status effects to the Sleep Flower spell function, or one of the others like Speed Down, and will do so now to see what happens.  I have already noted from my own experimentation that taking out the Element bit in the spell data table makes any spell non-elemental by default, which I used on Energy Absorb and Magic Absorb, but that's getting way ahead of myself, the project, everyone watching/working on Turbo or their own mods... everything, really.  I'll come back to that sort of thing later.

In particular, I have followed the discussion between yourself and hmsong with great interest, and among other things I like the idea of making Poison (and possibly Engulf) do percentage-based damage.  I have also thought about further possibilities with altering spells, but before I start talking about those I should first wait, to see if anyone wants to know what I think.  The discussion is already pretty lively as it is, soooo... first I will try the Sleep Flower thing.  After that, I can come back and we'll see.

Thanks for the latest update, I had no idea there was an unused enemy in the game.  Way past  8)

Link again:  Secret of Mana Screenshots (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1YMA_Z9LHj7wNPyd2z03uDDA6WesoUo-2?usp=sharing)

EDIT:  Whoops, forgot to mention that the Boomerang/Javelin reset bug no longer happens for me.  So the [Boy_Dislikes_Nuts] fix appears to be dead-on target.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190908
Post by: Mr X on September 09, 2019, 05:40:38 am

Mr X, weapon charge being reset when a spell hits a character should be vanilla behavior. Might not be pleasant, but don't think that one counts as a bug.

I think what I hammered out for the Sword Orb is pretty neat, will be curious what you think of it. I used the single unused enemy (apparently there was one), wrote a new AI script for it (it essentially didn't have one) then did some sorta funky stuff to get it animating without looking too glitchy. I can likely polish up its AI and animations further, but I got it to a usable state, unless someone finds some outright bugs with it. I intentionally set it up to have weird rules to fight successfully; it might take some experimenting to figure out how to kill it instead of it despawning (the despawning animation is a glitchy looking mess at the moment). If it does the "splat" death animation it was successfully killed; if it flies apart in a cloud of glitchy graphics, it despawned.


I just tried the original SoM and the charge attack doesn't reset after I get attacked with offensive magic or defensive except dispel.

I like what you have done with the new enemy, really impressed me once again.
Spoiler:
The only two ways I have found to defeat them is through transforming them or using the evil gate to take out one at a time, if I use it on all they fly away/despawn. Looking forward the future updates of it. A very unusual enemy (in a good way), a snowman casting the most powerful fireball spell in the game, fits for a hidden enemy especially in a magical place like the mana fortress.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190908
Post by: Queue on September 09, 2019, 06:18:37 am
Quote from: hmsong
And I got Attack Down, instead of Poison.
Shoot, you got Attack Down because I gave you the wrong value for Blaze Wall. -_-
$C8EBCA is actually for Fire Bouquet, hence why the Attack Down.
$C8EBE5 should be the correct value for Blaze Wall.
Check 0x08E801 + 0x11 * 2 (that's Blaze Wall's entry in the table) and verify I got the correct bytes this time.
Quote from: hmsong
Strangely, I'm looking at Fire Bouquet (which has Attack Down), and its status code (D0/2EDD) is 0000.  Any idea why it's 0000?
Because Fire Bouquet doesn't use the Status Effect value from the spell data. The function it calls ($C8EBCA) just has Attack Down hardcoded as a secondary effect to damage.

zoolgremlin, dang, that background discoloring is a mix of mediocre tile art and a mediocre palette. It's technically as intended (watch the game's intro sequence to see the exact same view of the Mana Tree but with a nighttime palette and that band of forest to mountains transition looks a bit better despite being the same tiles). I suspect tweaking the color palette for that map would be the only way to try and improve it. It may be possible, but it'll depend on what else in that mana tree cutscene uses the colors I'd need to change.

Mr X, thanks for checking it. Guess I gotta get that figured out too then as I'm pretty sure that charge behavior changing wasn't intentional; I'd just been ignoring it since I thought it was normal.
Spoiler:
Hm, wouldn't have guessed you could nest spoilers.
Spoiler:
Here be dragons.
Spoiler:
You found my intended weakness for them. Also specifically not using Wall to try and protect yourself as bounced spells should despawn them is intentional. I actually tried to keep as much of the vanilla aspects of that unused enemy as possible, namely, it being a snowman and using something Fireball-y are vanilla traits of that enemy, for whatever reason. It's immune to melee because snowmen don't have a melee hitbox (though it also has astronomical defensive stats).

Almost everything about their animations is madness; their idle wiggling is actually the High Stepper idle animation, their up and down movement is... I think Moogle animations of some sort, and I'm not even positive on the leap, maybe a Moogle whip post leap or something. The reason they despawn is because one of the damaged animations is the Cannon Travel cannon fuse burning down and vanishing animation... I think, or something similar, and is related to the vanilla bug I fixed where a playable character could vaporize while Frostied if they wound up playing the Cannon Fuse or similar animation. Which all occurs because the Snowman has a tiny animation table (only 7 entries) so any animation number over 6 overflows into the animations that happen to come next in the ROM, namely Mana Fortress space laser, Cannon Travel cannon, High Stepper, NPC Moogles, player Moogles and player Pygmy Moogles. I'm going to need to relocate and properly flesh out their animation table to make things less glitchy.

Do you think the entrance was okay? I could've gone full super secret and hidden the entrance in a walk-through wall, or required a whip post jump into a wall, or something extreme like that, but settled on a nonchalant single tile in the hopes people would actually stumble on it without knowing it exists.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190908
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 09, 2019, 06:54:50 am
@Queue  Oh, you were still awake?!  I guess that was good for us, at least...  :D

I can confirm that the spell function for Acid Storm also does not use the Status Effect value, which is why the spell doesn't set Poison, but spell functions could presumably be changed if anyone knows how.  I don't, but again that's getting way ahead of, well... everything.

I can also confirm that changing Sleep Flower's spell pointer to that of Blaze Wall, and setting the Status Effect values to Unconscious and Poison, works just fine.  The spell will damage, and apply both statuses minus any immunities the target possesses.  Haven't tried it with SF's default pointer just yet, but I'm guessing the spell functions have no trouble trying to apply multiple statuses.  And possibly buffs/debuffs as well, although those are hardcoded as you mentioned.

Cheers for the info regarding the Mana Tree background, I will have another look at the one in the intro cutscene just to see the difference.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190908
Post by: Mr X on September 09, 2019, 07:10:25 am


Mr X, thanks for checking it. Guess I gotta get that figured out too then as I'm pretty sure that charge behavior changing wasn't intentional; I'd just been ignoring it since I thought it was normal.
Spoiler:
Hm, wouldn't have guessed you could nest spoilers.
Spoiler:
Here be dragons.
Spoiler:
You found my intended weakness for them. Also specifically not using Wall to try and protect yourself as bounced spells should despawn them is intentional. I actually tried to keep as much of the vanilla aspects of that unused enemy as possible, namely, it being a snowman and using something Fireball-y are vanilla traits of that enemy, for whatever reason. It's immune to melee because snowmen don't have a melee hitbox (though it also has astronomical defensive stats).

Almost everything about their animations is madness; their idle wiggling is actually the High Stepper idle animation, their up and down movement is... I think Moogle animations of some sort, and I'm not even positive on the leap, maybe a Moogle whip post leap or something. The reason they despawn is because one of the damaged animations is the Cannon Travel cannon fuse burning down and vanishing animation... I think, or something similar, and is related to the vanilla bug I fixed where a playable character could vaporize while Frostied if they wound up playing the Cannon Fuse or similar animation. Which all occurs because the Snowman has a tiny animation table (only 7 entries) so any animation number over 6 overflows into the animations that happen to come next in the ROM, namely Mana Fortress space laser, Cannon Travel cannon, High Stepper, NPC Moogles, player Moogles and player Pygmy Moogles. I'm going to need to relocate and properly flesh out their animation table to make things less glitchy.

Do you think the entrance was okay? I could've gone full super secret and hidden the entrance in a walk-through wall, or required a whip post jump into a wall, or something extreme like that, but settled on a nonchalant single tile in the hopes people would actually stumble on it without knowing it exists.

Spoiler:
Haha I tried first the wall strategy and they despawned upon that, then I tried the sprites luna spells the most underused spells in the game and transforming them worked, then later I was like "I a dumbass, why didnt I think of the evil gate"

Do enemies drops change if they get transformed?

Don't rush, you got the base set. Is it possible change the spells the enemies in general? I thought you intentionally left it to cast fireball. Not that I mind that, it's a secret enemy. But it could come in handy to make other enemies or bosses becoming a bit more interesting if individual stats/spells can be changed.

As for the location it's fine, it's not like you would miss a whole lot from these final orbs at current point and time anyway. If they become more powerful in the large future especially the sword then I would make it more of a secret like finding a spot to use a whip to get past a wall then teleport, or something along those lines. But as things are currently, it works just fine.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190908
Post by: hmsong on September 09, 2019, 07:58:23 am
Quote
Check 0x08E801 + 0x11 * 2 (that's Blaze Wall's entry in the table) and verify I got the correct bytes this time.

How do I "check" that?  Table?  If you're talking about hex 11, then yes that's Blaze Wall, but I don't really know where you got EBE5.

Having said that, I used it and it worked.  But sadly, I cannot apply to other spells, it seems.  I did the following:

Code: [Select]
' lava wave, damage + status effect
@OFF $C8E81D
ADR.16 $C8EBE5

' lava wave, + petrify
@OFF $D0341D
RAW 40 00

' dark force, damage + status effect
@OFF $C8E84B
ADR.16 $C8EBE5

' dark force, + poison
@OFF $D0341D
RAW 00 20

Dark Force's poison works just fine, but Lava Wave's petrify doesn't.  And I know I got the right code for petrify, since I tested it on Dark Force.  My best guess is that since both Dark Force and Lava Wave uses the same code (ADR.16   $C8EBE5), there is some sort of conflict.  So... can you help me resolve this issue?  I intend on putting more status effects on spells.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190908
Post by: Mr X on September 09, 2019, 12:53:11 pm
Found a bug, when I used the balloon magic on silktail it spawned the new enemy that you just added, I tried that on another enemy and it still happened. The snowman of doom is gonna rock your party if you face him that early like me, just run :laugh:

It happens also when you use a weapon that inflicts that status also. It seems to be related to that.

Edit: Oh shit that seems to happen with other statuses as well, be wary everyone if you will use a status spell or saber magic. I tried sleep flower that seems to be the only one not causing that.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190908
Post by: SpiffSpoo on September 09, 2019, 03:17:18 pm
Since you/enemies can't have 2 status effects normally, would it be possible to have a priority in the spell to try and give one status effect first, and if that fails try for an other?  If not, or would take too much time, could the sleep effect be straight up changed to poison?

If a "leaf" saber could be coded in, making it give the poison status instead of MP drain would make sense, since MP drain was OP in SD3.

EDIT:
I should read things more carefully, saw the sleep flower addition above which is pretty cool. I don't remember enemies being able to have, for example, engulf and snowman at the same time.  Probably because I never actually tried.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190908
Post by: Queue on September 09, 2019, 03:22:57 pm
zoolgremlin, the spell functions can certainly be changed, but for that you need to understand at least some SNES assembly / machine code. A quick example using Fire Bouquet (and ZPS's ASM syntax, which is non-standard for 65816 ASM syntax):
At file offset 0x08EBD5 / SNES mem address $C8EBD5, which is in the middle of the Fire Bouquet function that starts at $C8EBCA is:
Code: [Select]
BDB0E1  LDA+X    $E1B0   ' Load [BUFF_EFFECTS, X]
293F    AND      #3F     ' Clear flags for Attack Up (#40) and Attack Down (#80)
0980    ORA      #80     ' Set flag for Attack Down (#80)
9DB0E1  STA+X    $E1B0   ' Store [BUFF_EFFECTS, X]
If you only wanted to change which stats it manipulates, you'd be changing the #3F and #80, and it helps if you understand bitwise AND and OR operations. If you wanted to do something completely different, then you have 10 bytes of space there, so it'd either need to be pretty simple and compact, or you'd need to put in a function call to code elsewhere.

It would also be possible to make the stat change spells pull data from the spell data tables rather than each having a hardcoded stat change in their individual function; then they could share a spell function and the stat changes could be data driven.

Fun fact: Speed Down has its own function, but it's identical to the function used by all the other "status effect only" spells. A fair guess would be that Speed Down was going to be the inverse of Speed Up instead of applying Tangled but got changed by copy/pasting the status effect only function in place of the Speed Down function, rather than just changing it to use the common function.

If I ever add other saber(s) it'd likely be by making Speed Down use the generic function and stealing the space of the Speed Down function to add code for the new saber spell's function (partly because immediately after the Speed Down function is all the other saber spell functions, so it'd be a good spot to put a new one.



Mr X, don't worry, I didn't think of Evil Gate either.
Quote from: Mr X
Do enemies drops change if they get transformed?
They do not. This is apparently the only thing I tested properly; they definitely drop the items I assigned to the new enemy. =P Transformed enemies have the drops and drop rate of the original monster; they override the art, animations and AI (because animations are heavily tied to AI), defensive stats (def, mdef, evasions). Not sure on level or neutral stats (str, int, etc.). Exp, health and gold should all be the base monster's.
Quote from: Mr X
Is it possible change the spells the enemies in general? I thought you intentionally left it to cast fireball.
Yes, though they're changed by changing an enemy's AI scripts. It's easy once you find the data to change, but uhm, I really need to figure out the proper way to get Enker's disassembly available to share; the original website is long gone, archive.org doesn't have the important parts of the original website, and RHDN's data crystal only has a fragment of the disassembly. Either Enker or someone else who added onto the disassembly I was given annotated all the AI scripts.
Quote from: Mr X
Found a bug, when I used the balloon magic on silktail it spawned the new enemy that you just added, I tried that on another enemy and it still happened.
Oh, uh, maybe the unused enemy didn't have his own AI, he was using the generic "has status effects" AI that any monster ends up using when afflicted; which I overwrote with the new enemy AI. Guess that needs to be relocated like their animation table. I really need to do a round of dedicated bug fixing it seems.



Quote from: hmsong
How do I "check" that?  Table?  If you're talking about hex 11, then yes that's Blaze Wall, but I don't really know where you got EBE5.
Oh, uhm, so this is where a hex editor (like HxD, https://mh-nexus.de/en/hxd/ (https://mh-nexus.de/en/hxd/)) comes in. I totally forgot to cover that. The reason I specified all of those file offsets even though that's not the format the ZPS patcher uses for addresses was to make looking in the ROM file with a hex editor easier. Using a hex editor (there are many hex editors, I just linked to one I know is good), open a Secret of Mana ROM (ideally in read-only mode so you don't accidentally make changes), and go to the file offset 0x08E801 (which is usually listed on the left side of most hex editor's UIs) either by scrolling down, or using the hex editor's "Goto..." function (often which uses the keyboard shortcut Ctrl+G).
Quote from: hmsong
I did the following:
Code: [Select]
' lava wave, damage + status effect
@OFF $C8E81D
ADR.16 $C8EBE5

' lava wave, + petrify
@OFF $D0341D
RAW 40 00

' dark force, damage + status effect
@OFF $C8E84B
ADR.16 $C8EBE5

' dark force, + poison
@OFF $D0341D
RAW 00 20
Dark Force's poison works just fine, but Lava Wave's petrify doesn't.
Code: [Select]
' lava wave, + petrify
@OFF $D0341D
RAW 40 00
appears to have the wrong address:
$D0341D is the address for Dark Force's status effect entry in the spell data tables. Lava Wave's data starts at $D02E5D, so you'll need to get the specific address for Lava Wave's status effect entry in there.



Quote from: SpiffSpoo
Since you/enemies can't have 2 status effects normally, would it be possible to have a priority in the spell to try and give one status effect first, and if that fails try for an other?  If not, or would take too much time, could the sleep effect be straight up changed to poison?

If a "leaf" saber could be coded in, making it give the poison status instead of MP drain would make sense, since MP drain was OP in SD3.
You can have multiple status effects in Secret of Mana, some conflict with each other... I think? but you're not simply limited to only one. It's Trials of Mana where you can only have one. Based on zoolgremlin's test it sounds like Sleep and Poison coexist fine.

It's unlikely I'd do a "Leaf Saber" since Mana Magic is Dryad's saber spell already.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190908
Post by: SpiffSpoo on September 09, 2019, 03:31:29 pm
You can have multiple status effects in Secret of Mana, some conflict with each other... I think? but you're not simply limited to only one. It's Trials of Mana where you can only have one. Based on zoolgremlin's test it sounds like Sleep and Poison coexist fine.

It's unlikely I'd do a "Leaf Saber" since Mana Magic is Dryad's saber spell already.

Makes sense. It always annoyed me that dryad had 1 real less spell for each character, but then again there is Shade and Lumina with only having access to 3 spells each.

On another note, has anyone looked into issues where parts of the music are cut out for a few seconds or sounds effects are cut off short?  Seems to only happen when there is a lot of action going on at once.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190908
Post by: Queue on September 09, 2019, 04:18:16 pm
Quote from: SpiffSpoo
On another note, has anyone looked into issues where parts of the music are cut out for a few seconds or sounds effects are cut off short?
That's how the game's sound engine was designed. The Super Nintendo has 8 sound channels. Most games divide them up so that say, 4 channels are used for music and 4 for sounds (or 5 and 3, 6 and 2, etc.). Secret of Mana allows music to use all 8 channels with the caveat that sounds can temporarily steal some of those channels (to emit sound effects) which means parts of the music cut out while sound effects are playing. This let them make fancier music, since they weren't limiting themselves to the more typical less-than-8 channels for music. Unfortunately, some songs have important parts of their melody on channels most likely to be overridden by sounds.

I included Mop's Audio\SFX_Channel_Limit hack (Off by default) which restricts how much music can be overridden by sounds, but it's not a cure-all.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190908
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 09, 2019, 05:18:27 pm
Ah well, I thought I was done for the night, but my body decided it only needed, like, 4-5hrs sleep.  For some reason.  So one more post is okay, I guess, since I'm past the 1-week trial period.  There are quite a few points to respond to here, let's see if I can do this precisely...

@Queue  Much obliged for the info regarding spell functions, also I didn't know about a guy named Enker having done a disassembly of SoM.  I am going to read about bitwise ops and SNES assembly to better understand them, at some stage.  As well as ZPS's syntax.  That'll take quite a while, but it will certainly help.  10 bytes of space is not very much, indeed, but if it's free to use without conflict, good stuff.

I was pretty sure that Speed Down was pointing to a different function than Fire Bouquet, but hadn't yet confirmed it, or thought much about why.  On the face of it, that's not very sensible.  The descriptions for Speed Down and Speed Up in Vanilla are as follows:

Speed Down - Lowers Evade % and slows attack
Speed Up   - Raises Evade % and speeds attack

Soooo... right there is a hint, that the two spells were/might have been originally intended to operate as counterparts to each other.  As things stand in Vanilla, though, the game is basically being forced to lie to you.  According to Regrs, this is not the only instance of that, but I suppose that doesn't matter right now.  I did a bit of checking and, as far as I can tell, Speed Down does not lower Evade (the debuff bit and timer for that are not set by the spell function, but Tangle makes you walk slower so that's the "slows attack" part).  Speed Up only speeds attack in the vague sense that it gives you Hit Up, walking/running/attacking speeds do not seem affected in my observation.  I am of the opinion that Speed Down should be optionally capable of setting Hit Down & Evade Down, on top of Tangle which is only mildly debilitating.  But... whether to make Speed Up increase movement speed I don't know, since making it increase charge speed is already an option.  Mop's Ancient Cave project has a movespeed-increase option for Speed Up, if I remember correctly, but I'll let everyone decide for themselves the merit of that idea.  I have no strong opinion about it just now.

Link to Ancient Cave homepage:  Secret of Mana, Ancient Cave, by Mop (https://secretofmanaancientcave.blogspot.com/)

I like your idea of converting Speed Down's function for a new Saber, it looks like a very tidy way to fit in with the other Saber functions, which are all separate for some strange reason (different pointers per Saber, so logically different functions to be used, craaaaazy...).  Although, I actually like the Evil Gate spell, blame it on bad taste. It's only because of the animation and sound effect, not the Vanilla damage function for it.  That bit of the spell royally blows chunks!   :thumbsup:

If only there had been enough Shade/Lumina spell slots for both casters, <sigh>... (EDIT:  I really didn't think this throwaway Comment through far enough, did I?   ::))

By the way, it's quite conceivable that the Mana Tree background is not really worth fixing, if it isn't a straightforward issue.  I say that because you only see the sunrise version in Pure Land, for that one scene.  The nighttime one looks just fine.  But I'll leave it up to you as to whether it's worth fixing or not.  Thanks for your response...

@SpiffSpoo  From HHS on TASVideos, I have info about which status effects are incompatible with each other.  I will check to make sure it's all correct later on, but here's the info about that (copy/paste from the TAS forum):

- Petrify removes Tangle, Mire, Sleep, Frosty, Balloon, Barrel, and Engulf, cuts currHP by 50% each time inflicted
- Freeze removes Tangle, Mire, Sleep, Balloon, Poison, and Engulf
- Sleep removes Tangle, Mire, and Barrel
- Mire removes Tangle, Mire, and Barrel (A status defect that removes itself.  <sarcasm=TRUE>  Genius, Square...!! <sarcasm=FALSE>   >:()
- Moogle removes Balloon, Barrel, Transform, Poison, and Engulf
- Frosty, Petrify, and Pygmy all remove Transform
- Transform removes Tangle, Mire, Confuse, Balloon, Barrel, Poison, and Engulf
- Mire, Sleep, Frosty, Petrify, Balloon, Poison, and Engulf all remove Barrel
- Engulf removes Balloon, Barrel, and Poison
- Frosty, Petrify, Transform, and Moogle remove Poison


So, using your example of Engulf & Frosty (which you called "Snowman"), an enemy could indeed be inflicted with both at the same time, since neither of them cancel out the other.  (Sure fine design Square, you dopefishes!   :laugh:)  Whereas Petrify & Frosty can't coexist because Petrify removes Frosty.  Not that there would be much use to that latter example, it's just to demonstrate how the logic of status effects works in the code (at least apparently...?).

I forgot to check whether Poison and Sleep could coexist before trying it with Sleep Flower earlier, only checking after it actually worked.

Link to the TASVideos page I pulled the info from:  TASVideos Discussion:  Secret of Mana (page 18 of 30) (http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=425&start=437)

The posts aren't numbered, but HHS' info is very close to the top, it starts off with, "Here are some various things that I've found out."
Hope all that helps...  now back to my experimenting and reading.  Whew!  :)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
Post by: Queue on September 09, 2019, 05:52:20 pm
Update 2019-09-09:
https://ufile.io/bn04fnbm

Changes:
- Quick fix for the Farmable Sword Orb enemy so that he doesn't show up and flatten you anywhere in the world
- Implemented Magic\Sleep_Flower_-_Poison; adds poison (in addition to sleep) to Sleep Flower
- Internal code cleanup for Magic\Default_Spirit_Levels; hopefully didn't break anything

Technical Changes:
- Deployed new syntax for (mis)using ZPS's ADR.16 to encode non-address 16-bit values:
ADR.16 #0x1A2B (instead of the old, vague ADR.16 $001A2B)
This is the only case in ZPS syntax where 0x???? hexadecimal notation will likely work, but it makes intent and usage of the number explicit.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
Post by: hmsong on September 09, 2019, 06:58:44 pm
@Queue

Oh my.  Thank you.  I can't believe I missed that.  Yeah, it works.

Wow, I did not know you can have multiple status effects on a single victim.  I need to do more experimenting to make things more useful.  Since Sleep Flower now has poison, I may use another effect for Dark Force (I may need to change it back to 2MP, since it's sort of more useful).

Now, for my next... question:
- How do I put "Speed Down" on Lucent Beam without the tangle effect?  In short, accuracy/evasion down (slow recharge not necessary).  I don't want to put "tangle" effect, since that doesn't make sense for Lucent Beam.
- Do you think it's possible to make Burst to make it cost HP instead of MP?  I can make it cost 0MP, but I have no idea how to make the user damage himself.  I want to make him damage either fixed 50 HP or 10% damage.  It's suppose to be a kamikaze attack (desperation attack).  But having it cost too much HP would make it impractical.

And these probably aren't something I can do, so I guess this is request (I think other people mentioned this):
- Can you increase the damage of "Ticks" of Poison and Engulf?  1HP is so tiny.  Maybe have it damage 1% per tick (round down, min 1HP) per tick, and for longer duration?  That way, it's a LOT more threatening (and therefore use the Herb/Remedy more frequently).  And Engulf would disable attack/spells while ticking away the HP (this allows movements, which I think was what it was supposed to be).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
Post by: Queue on September 09, 2019, 10:19:08 pm
Quote from: hmsong
- How do I put "Speed Down" on Lucent Beam without the tangle effect?  In short, accuracy/evasion down (slow recharge not necessary).  I don't want to put "tangle" effect, since that doesn't make sense for Lucent Beam.
The only spell that actually applies accuracy down and/or evasion down is one of the random Lunar Magic effects. Soo... it would require adding or modifying a spell function to make another spell capable of that. Which is not something easy to explain. I'm currently reviewing all of the spell functions to determine if it's feasible to make a generic stat up / down function to make such spells data-driven, to free up code space among the spell functions to add new variations.

There's an unused byte in spell data that could be used to specify the stat, and some logic could be used to extrapolate the anti-stat plus related buff/debuff timer for said stat, or the status effect value could be overloaded with stat buff/debuff values which would mean a spell couldn't both apply a status effect and a stat buff/debuff but the necessary code would then be smaller / simpler.
Quote from: hmsong
- Do you think it's possible to make Burst to make it cost HP instead of MP?  I can make it cost 0MP, but I have no idea how to make the user damage himself.
This isn't a feature of any existing spell so would require new code.
Quote from: hmsong
- Can you increase the damage of "Ticks" of Poison and Engulf?  1HP is so tiny.  Maybe have it damage 1% per tick (round down, min 1HP) per tick, and for longer duration?  That way, it's a LOT more threatening (and therefore use the Herb/Remedy more frequently).
Short answer: yes, I can, and I intend to.
Longer answer: I need to find the code that actually applies damage due to being poisoned and / or engulfed, then decide on how to change it. Not sure on changing the duration. Also, most likely damage would be some division by 2, so 1/16, 1/32, 1/64, 1/128, etc. of max or current health (both could be valid options, will need to see which works better).
Quote from: hmsong
And Engulf would disable attack/spells while ticking away the HP (this allows movements, which I think was what it was supposed to be).
This isn't feasible. Engulf has to make an actor face left / right every frame of animation to give the fire fake animation. The fire is actually a temporary weapon (as is balloon, the barrel, and the little death grim reaper) and doesn't itself animate. In contrast, poison is a palette change, moogle, pygmy, frosty and petrify are sprite changes, and unconscious is just an animation.



I think I need an itemized list of spell features people want if any of these more complicated requests are going to happen. So examples are "spell cast costs health instead of mana" and "spell can do damage, status effect and stat change at the same time" and so on. For any of this to be practical, I need to figure out how to define some of these new behaviors within the nearly full spell data blocks, then merge and genericize some of the existing spell functions to act on the changes to the spell data format. This would let people other than me do some of these alternative spell things they want, without themselves having to figure out how to, uh, program SNES code (not that I don't encourage it, but changing spell data and function pointers in a table is orders of magnitude different than changing the code that uses that data), and it would mean I wouldn't have to make all these changes to spell particulars via spell data and function table changes myself on a per request basis.

I'm willing to pursue this if someone(s) will write up a list of specifically what spell behaviors have been requested.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
Post by: John Enigma on September 09, 2019, 11:10:46 pm
Forgive me for asking Mr. Queue, but does this Turbo hack of yours contain the latest version of zhader's Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack (http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php?topic=20093.0)?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
Post by: Queue on September 09, 2019, 11:30:13 pm
This Turbo project is built directly on top of the most recent publicly available version (v0.18) of zhaDe's New Gameplay Improvement mod (it uses the ZPS patching system he made to make NGI). If there's a newer version of his NGI available, I'm not aware of it.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
Post by: John Enigma on September 09, 2019, 11:41:20 pm
Thank you.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
Post by: hmsong on September 10, 2019, 12:13:31 am
Okay, I'm willing to write up the list of what types of things people want... or rather, what I want.  I don't know what others want (I'm not a mind reader).  I request:

- Make Burst spells cost HP rather than MP.
- <Damage> spells do <Damage + S.Effect>. (such as Blaze Wall) [done]
- <Damage> spells do <Damage + Stat Up/Down>. (such as Acid Storm)
- <Damage + S.Effect> spells do <Damage>. [done]
- Lunar Magic does... something more practical (All stat down, from one of the random Lunar Magic effects).
- Moon Energy has longer duration.
- 12th Item is Stardust Herb (instead of Faerie Coconut).
- Dispel Magic cancels out Lucid Barrier (it doesn't do that in the original game).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
Post by: Mr X on September 10, 2019, 12:58:22 am
I simply want to apply also some common sense to the spells. Like have Slow have the accuracy/evasion down.

Acid rain has the physical/magic def down

Fire boquet has physical atk down

I wouldn't make all stat down on lunar magic as it makes those spells useless. Magical atk down sounds like a good idea with it tho.

I don't think in my opinion that the evil gate needs to be more practical than this project already made it. It can do up to 999 damage on bosses, of course that would cost some more hp, it's an hp based damage spell.

I would make tho dispel cancel out lucid barrier also, always found it weird how that wasn't possible in the original.

Dark force, lucent beam, Burst, Exploder, Thunderstorm, Earth Slide, Freeze are the strongest spells in terms of damage. Burst, Dark force and Lucent Beam having the same spell power but with burst being effective on enemies with no weakness and undead as a poor mans version for the sprite to use since he has no light damage spells. Exploder should be also very high in terms of pure damage. Therefore more mp cost. More mp - more powerful, which you would use them in your early game mainly when you don't have a lot of mp. I would also make certain spells be mandatory on certain bosses even if for example a boss is weak to salamando, only lava wave or exploder works properly on them.


Moon energy furation seems just fine tbh, the bosses get rekt even currently as it is and they have double the amount of hp as well. hmsong


imho a lot need to be taken into account when manipulating the spells, if we look at it from a longterm planning perspective, future of this project and so on.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 10, 2019, 02:02:12 am
Got a few more hours sleep, that should help.

Just very briefly, I wasn't going to make particular requests of my own regarding spells.  Personally, I thought it best to let Queue work on his bucket list and move on to other projects whenever he's ready.  Although, it looks like he might be all in favor of reprogramming the spell functions.  Hmmmm...

My plan was to learn enough to make changes I like to the game myself, that sounded like the better way.  Any changes I make could certainly be made available to others through the ZPS patch, though.  My posts about magic were mainly meant to pass on information about the game, that I found in various other places.  :)

Mr. X mentioned something about the charge gauge being reset when hit with any magic.  It's been ages since I played Vanilla, wasn't really gonna go back to it.  So... I had forgotten that only Dispel Magic was supposed to reset the gauge when cast.  It was in the description for it:  "Sets enemy's gauge to 0/halts magic".  It might also have been meant to set Stamina to 0% too, since that's a gauge, but I don't really recall.

From what you described, Mr. X, it's possible that the gauge-reset function has been inadvertently changed to trigger upon every spell except Dispel Magic, but this isn't something I've looked into, as I also thought there was no bug here.  I honestly don't know what to think... :huh:

That'll do from me, just now.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
Post by: Mr X on September 10, 2019, 03:18:08 am
I have a save file that leads to the hexas fight she likes to spam dispel so I will check again to be sure but dispel did reset the gauge from what I remember too like it was intended. That happens with every spell in this project now, defensive or offensive

zoolgremlin
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 10, 2019, 03:48:42 am
@Mr. X  Okay, I will check as well, with both Vanilla and Turbo.   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
Post by: Mr X on September 10, 2019, 06:07:58 am
Ok so for sure dispel magic does dispel weapon charge back to 0, as intended in the original. But every spell does that as well which wasn't the case in the original.

Dispel magic does not dispel lumina's barrier and lunar energy, I would definitely change that and be able to dispel both of them to make those two spells less overpowered, to bosses who use dispel at least will have that advantage.

Another thing that really bothers me the Mech Rider 2 and 3 fight, they are supposed to use these canon moves but they very rarely do that if ever, have them use it more frequent and remove speed up from mech rider 3 completely, it always gets reflected away making that fight rather dumb overall with him just running around and reflecting his own magic which improves my own stats!
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
Post by: Queue on September 10, 2019, 04:36:07 pm
Bug_Fixes\Overcharge_Fix by Mop seems to be what's causing the charge reset when hit by spells. Its mechanism for trying to prevent weapon overcharging is to reset charge level under certain circumstances to prevent the exploit, and I guess a side effect is it also resets when a spell hits a character. I've been meaning to write my own version of this bug fix that directly prevents charge going over specific values, and reducing the charge level if you get the level above its maximum somehow, but hadn't gotten to it since Bug_Fixes\Overcharge_Fix was doing the job well enough.

Also, I found the issue Mr X encountered where upon dying, he saw the "Early Luna" hint text; Early Luna uses event 7FC which is unused in vanilla, but VWF Edition and Relocalized use it for an additional death message variation (it requires specific party members). I've relocated it to event 7F2 for the next release, which hopefully is truly unused.

Chugging away at getting the foundational work for spell change extensions in.

Edit: Fun fact: Apparently Acid Storm has the status effect value for poison set, but the function it calls doesn't apply status effects, so the value isn't used.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 10, 2019, 05:49:01 pm
Aaaand... I'm back.  Hadn't even gotten halfway with testing for the gauge-reset thing, but ah well...

Bug_Fixes\Overcharge_Fix by Mop seems to be what's causing the charge reset when hit by spells. Its mechanism for trying to prevent weapon overcharging is to reset charge level under certain circumstances to prevent the exploit, and I guess a side effect is it also resets when a spell hits a character.

It does make sense that [Overcharge_Fix] would be the origin, given the nature of what it's fixing.  If the only side effect is resetting the charge&stamina gauges, that's not so bad an effect.  Looked at another way, it might make the use of Dryad's Wall spell more enticing, if Wall circumvents the reset.  I think I will check that.

By the way, Queue, the only other thing in the topic that I've seen you request feedback on is the [New_Game_Plus] feature you created.  Admittedly, I haven't messed around much with that yet, but I'm going to eventually.  The game definitely restarts okay after picking the "repeats..." option.  And the Rabites were able to hurt the Boy even with the top-tier armor.  Can't argue with results like that.

Is there any other feature you would like me to test for bugs/glitches, etc.?  I guess I should ask while you're here...  :)

EDIT:  The thing about Acid Storm was mentioned by Regrs way back when, and I saw the bit for Poison in the spell data table that HHS posted on TASVideos.  Still a fun fact to me, though.   8)

Link to GameFAQs page where Regrs wowed everyone (33 pages, unfortunately...):

More speculation on deleted content (https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/588646-secret-of-mana/69150657)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
Post by: hmsong on September 10, 2019, 06:57:00 pm
Quote
Edit: Fun fact: Apparently Acid Storm has the status effect value for poison set, but the function it calls doesn't apply status effects, so the value isn't used.

Yeah, I noticed.  I thought about putting Poison to Acid Storm, but I figured Acid Storm already has Def Down, so it's unnecessary.  I'm guessing programmers thought that too.

Also I was talking to Kethinov over email, regarding Stardust Herb for the 12th item, and he said:
Quote
Regarding the Stardust Herb, I was actually the person who wrote the code for the Stardust Herb for Timbo, but I wasn't aware he had released it yet. Is it bundled with Relocalized? (I haven't actually played Relocalized yet, so I wouldn't know.) If so, yeah, it could be released as a standalone hack, since that's how I developed it originally. I have an early version IPS of it in my private files that is fully functional but lacks the graphic Timbo created for it. That’s the version he based the final version off of. Though again, even though I helped Timbo with the coding, I'm not a big fan of the concept of the Stardust Herb, so this isn't something I would consider a big priority on my (very long) to do list. You might be able to persuade him or possibly Queue to extract the finalized version from Relocalized and release a standalone version though. Queue has already extracted a handful of things from Relocalized to offer standalone versions.

So... is there a Stardust Herb patch somewhere?  I'd love to use that instead of Faerie Coconut.  If you need graphical picture, I can make it (using Paint).  I don't know the canvas size of the icon though, so if you tell me that, I'll make one (mostly by using SD3's icon).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
Post by: Queue on September 10, 2019, 08:56:59 pm
No, the Stardust Herb patch isn't part of Relocalized nor publicly available otherwise. I'm pretty sure Timbo intends to use it with his Secret of Mana: World of Balance project.

The last thing I need is artwork unless it's been formatted for use directly by Secret of Mana; SNES-esque icons are easy, inserting replacement art is tough, and making the game show new art that isn't replacing something is very difficult. If you want to contribute art, you'll need to use an SNES sprite editor (i.e. Tile Layer Pro https://www.romhacking.net/utilities/108/ (https://www.romhacking.net/utilities/108/)), locate and modify the art in the sprite editor so that palette-based color numbering is correct, save the modified ROM and locate which bytes changed due to your edit (generating an IPS patch is an option I'd accept, though I'd prefer a block of either the raw bytes or the same in ascii digits).

Despite how daunting that sounds, I already simplified a step via Graphics\Decode_Menu_Icons so you don't have to ALSO decode and re-encode the icon art as well.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
Post by: Mr X on September 11, 2019, 01:49:00 am
If Acid  Storm is supposed to cause poison I think it should stay like that then, fixing what the original couldn't.

Acid storm - poison, magic and physical def down
Slow - hit and evade rate down
Fire Boquet - physical atk down
Lunatic - some status + magic atk down

While making dispel magic also dispel lucid barrier and lunar magic.

While removing the poison from sleep flower and have them work like sleep flowers, like those from SD3. Of course Acids storms spell power should be weaker than freeze, it's main function is stat down, and status infliction on enemies.

And the dread slime would be a pain to deal with that as it likes to spam that spell not that I mind. More challenge - fun.

September 11, 2019, 01:56:40 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Aaaand... I'm back.  Hadn't even gotten halfway with testing for the gauge-reset thing, but ah well...

It does make sense that [Overcharge_Fix] would be the origin, given the nature of what it's fixing.  If the only side effect is resetting the charge/stamina gauges, that's not so bad an effect.  Looked at another way, it might make the use of Dryad's Wall spell more enticing, if Wall circumvents the reset.  I think I will check that.

By the way, Queue, the only other thing in the topic that I've seen you request feedback on is the [New_Game_Plus] feature you created.  Admittedly, I haven't messed around much with that yet, but I'm going to eventually.  The game definitely restarts okay after picking the "repeats..." option.  And the Rabites were able to hurt the Boy even with the top-tier armor.  Can't argue with results like that.

Is there any other feature you would like me to test for bugs/glitches, etc.?  I guess I should ask while you're here...  :)

EDIT:  The thing about Acid Storm was mentioned by Regrs way back when, and I saw the bit for Poison in the spell data table that HHS posted on TASVideos.  Still a fun fact to me, though.   8)

Link to GameFAQs page where Regrs wowed everyone (33 pages, unfortunately...):

More speculation on deleted content (https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/588646-secret-of-mana/69150657)

This is very interesting. Equipment with elemental resisyances, could make a lot of equipments more useful depending on situation, reminds me of the Sin of Mana a SD3 hack where every equipmemt is useful depending on what you need, certain bosses require certain equipments to be able to win etc.

Only downside being you had to keep excel open looking for the info.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190908
Post by: SpiffSpoo on September 11, 2019, 06:29:46 pm
That's how the game's sound engine was designed. The Super Nintendo has 8 sound channels. Most games divide them up so that say, 4 channels are used for music and 4 for sounds (or 5 and 3, 6 and 2, etc.). Secret of Mana allows music to use all 8 channels with the caveat that sounds can temporarily steal some of those channels (to emit sound effects) which means parts of the music cut out while sound effects are playing. This let them make fancier music, since they weren't limiting themselves to the more typical less-than-8 channels for music. Unfortunately, some songs have important parts of their melody on channels most likely to be overridden by sounds.

I included Mop's Audio\SFX_Channel_Limit hack (Off by default) which restricts how much music can be overridden by sounds, but it's not a cure-all.

That's what I thought, but wasn't sure how it was actually implemented since I almost never hear it happen in other SNES games.
If the hack helps with more music coming through, even if not a complete fix, it is more than welcome.
Could you also mention that hack on the front post? Unless I am blind, I am not seeing it there.


@SpiffSpoo From HHS on TASVideos, I have info about which status effects are incompatible with each other.  I will check to make sure it's all correct later on, but here's the info about that (copy/paste from the TAS forum):

- Petrify removes slow, tangled, sleep, freeze, stop, barrel and burning, and halves HP every time status changes
- Freeze removes slow, tangled, sleep, stop, barrel, poison and burning
- Sleep removes slow, tangled and barrel
- Tangled removes slow, tangled and barrel
- Moogle removes stop, barrel, transform, poison and burning
- Freeze, petrify and mini remove transform
- Transform removes slow, tangled, confuse, stop, barrel, poison and burning
- Tangled, sleep, freeze, petrify, stop, poison, burning remove barrel
- Burning removes stop, barrel and poison
- Freeze, petrify, transform and moogle remove poison

So using your example of engulf&snowman, (which is listed as burning&freeze respectively, above), an enemy could indeed be inflicted with both at the same time, since neither of them cancel out the other.  (Sure fine design Square, you dopefishes!   :laugh:)  Whereas Petrify and Freeze can't coexist because Petrify removes Freeze.  Not that there would be much use to that example, it's just to demonstrate how the logic of status effects works in the code (at least apparently...?).

I forgot to check whether Poison and Sleep could coexist before trying it with Sleep Flower earlier, only checking after it actually worked.

Link to the TASVideos page I pulled the info from:  TASVideos Discussion:  Secret of Mana (page 18 of 30) (http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=425&start=437)

The posts aren't numbered, but HHS' info is very close to the top, it starts off with, "Here are some various things that I've found out."

Hope all that helps...  now back to my experimenting and reading.  Whew!  :)

That's pretty cool and a good source of information as well.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
Post by: hmsong on September 11, 2019, 08:30:33 pm
@Queue
Quote
Quote from: hmsong

    How do I "check" that?  Table?  If you're talking about hex 11, then yes that's Blaze Wall, but I don't really know where you got EBE5.

Oh, uhm, so this is where a hex editor (like HxD, https://mh-nexus.de/en/hxd/) comes in. I totally forgot to cover that. The reason I specified all of those file offsets even though that's not the format the ZPS patcher uses for addresses was to make looking in the ROM file with a hex editor easier. Using a hex editor (there are many hex editors, I just linked to one I know is good), open a Secret of Mana ROM (ideally in read-only mode so you don't accidentally make changes), and go to the file offset 0x08E801 (which is usually listed on the left side of most hex editor's UIs) either by scrolling down, or using the hex editor's "Goto..." function (often which uses the keyboard shortcut Ctrl+G).

Okay, so I used HxD to open up a rom, and I'm guessing what I'm seeing is 0x08E801.  All I see is <AE>.  Am I even looking at the right place?  Here's the pic of what I'm seeing:
https://ibb.co/4KN0tDY
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
Post by: Queue on September 11, 2019, 09:00:14 pm
That picture shows you looking at 0x08EB01 while it's 0x08E801 that you'd want.



Right now, the format for spell data in the ZPS file I'm setting up looks like:
Code: [Select]
@OFF Spell.List.Earth_Slide
ADR.16 SSE.Func.Detrimental.Damage
@OFF %Spell.Data.Earth_Slide%*%
RAW Spell.Target.Enemies
RAW Spell.Stat.None
RAW Spell.Power.Default
RAW Spell.Accuracy.Default
RAW Spell.Element.Gnome
ADR.16 Spell.Effect.None
RAW 03 ' mana cost
I have to use %'s if I want to support stuff like the following elsewhere:
Code: [Select]
@OFF %Spell.Data.Thunder_Saber%Effect%
ADR.16 Spell.Effect.Confuse
due to specifics of how the patcher's ZPS parser works.
Any given value can be specified as a literal instead, but I'm setting up constants for vanilla values aside from Mana Cost and maybe the Power variations.

SSE stands for Spell System Extensions and will be the constant prefix for the new spell functions (SSE.Func.*), while everything vanilla will just be Spell.* (and there will be a list of vanilla Spell.Func.* defines for reference if nothing else).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
Post by: hmsong on September 11, 2019, 10:18:13 pm
Oh, crap.  You're right.  Here's the reload:

https://ibb.co/tcPkRvg

It lists "8B", which I'm guessing is the EA8B you mentioned.

Here is what I understand so far.  I have several questions:

08EA8B: <damage>
08EA97: <?>  <<--- This is used for "Speed Down" spell, but I don't know why it's not using 08EBF4.  Do you know the difference?
08EAA3/A8/AD/B2/B7/BC: <(saber effect)>

08EB04: <acc up + eva up>
08EB20: <def up>
08EB39: <damage + def down>
08EB54: <hp absorb>
08EB9F: <cure stat>
08EBB3: <cure hp>
08EBCA: <damage + pwr down>
08EBE5: <damage + (stat effect)>
08EBF4: <(stat effect)>

08EC00: <analyze>
08EC3B: <mp absorb>
08ECB5: <pwr up + eva down>
08ECD1: <crit up>
08ECEA: <mana 1>

08ED04: <revive>
08ED53: <wall>
08ED68: <mana 2>
08ED82: <evil gate>
08EDCB: <dispel> <<--- The original Dispel pierces Wall, but not if this is used on other spells.  Any idea why?

08EEB7: <lucid barrier>
08EEF5: <lunar effect>

Quote
The only spell that actually applies accuracy down and/or evasion down is one of the random Lunar Magic effects. Soo... it would require adding or modifying a spell function to make another spell capable of that. Which is not something easy to explain. I'm currently reviewing all of the spell functions to determine if it's feasible to make a generic stat up / down function to make such spells data-driven, to free up code space among the spell functions to add new variations.

There's an unused byte in spell data that could be used to specify the stat, and some logic could be used to extrapolate the anti-stat plus related buff/debuff timer for said stat, or the status effect value could be overloaded with stat buff/debuff values which would mean a spell couldn't both apply a status effect and a stat buff/debuff but the necessary code would then be smaller / simpler.

I hope you can figure that out.  That would be awesome.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 11, 2019, 11:54:59 pm
Okay, just a couple of things to mention...  :)

@Spiffspoo  The Secret of Mana forum on TASVideos was certainly very informative.  I was led to that forum from the one on GameFAQs.  The only thing I would add, though, is that I suspect at least some of the info by HHS is incorrect.  It would take a while to explain which bits, and why I believe they're incorrect, maybe private messaging would be a better way to go about that.  Not sure how you feel about PMing, however.

@Queue & Mr. X  I have not tested for the charge-gauge reset with every spell in the game, the reason being that getting a character hit by a spell that only targets enemies is not straightforward.  But what I found was that every spell the Girl can cast on an ally will cause the Gauge-Reset, unless the target has Wall.  I suppose that may mean that it's only when a character has a spell animation play over him/her, that the [Overcharge_Fix] kicks in and resets the Gauge.  Only the Charge Gauge, not the Stamina one.

That... really does fit in with Queue's suspicion that Mop's [Overcharge_Fix] is causing this new effect.  Having a spell bounce due to Wall makes the animation happen on another target, not the original one.  Dispel Magic in Vanilla resets both gauges, but only if a character is Charging, which is what it's meant to do.  Otherwise, Stamina is not zeroed and there is no Charge to affect, so nothing happens in that regard.

Hope that helps, but anyway...  :thumbsup:

I've been mapping out data tables for SoM Vanilla, using HxD to transfer value sets to Wordpad so they can be formatted into a list.  Wordpad is probably not the best tool for doing this sort of thing, but I'm gonna Link to what I've done so far, by storing the prototype lists in Google Drive.  Lemme know what you think, everyone, is it worth continuing with this for the sake of the project?   :-[

Link:  Secret of Mana Information (Vanilla) (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1fAVv9BMl7N9wPnPzpCkSDkVYp0le1BkU?usp=sharing)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
Post by: mkwong98 on September 12, 2019, 12:20:52 am
I've been mapping out data tables for SoM Vanilla, using HxD to transfer value sets to Wordpad so they can be formatted into a list.  Wordpad is probably not the best tool for doing this sort of thing, but I'm gonna Link to what I've done so far, by storing the prototype lists in Google Drive.  Lemme know what you think, everyone, is it worth continuing with this for the sake of the project?   :-[

Link:  Secret of Mana Data Tables (Vanilla) (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1fAVv9BMl7N9wPnPzpCkSDkVYp0le1BkU)

I found something on the Japanese version:
https://wiki.superfamicom.org/seiken-densetsu-2

How different is the Japanese version? Maybe you can use some of the info from that web page.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 12, 2019, 12:42:03 am
@mkwong98  Holy s***.  I had no idea this webpage existed...  :-[

Many thanks for the Link, unfortunately I cannot say comprehensively how different the Japanese ROM map is from the US one.  Not yet, anyway, 'cause I just don't know.  Let's find out when we all can...  :)

Attention:  I have now received documentation that shows (almost) the full array of disassembled data for the Vanilla ROM (not Japanese one), and is fairly well-annotated for the sake of any reader who has it.  I am unable to say who gave me this documentation, as the person responsible for handing it over requests anonymity, but I can say for sure that I did NOT create any of this documentation, and the explanatory notes within.  I am, however, at liberty to reformat these data Blocks and Comments, and I am in the process of doing so until further notice.  Link is in my previous Post, and a few subsequent ones.  Thank you for your attention, that's all for this announcement.   Way 8)!


September 12, 2019, 10:58:44 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
@hmsong  Uhh... I know you weren't requesting a response from me in particular, but I can at least answer the question about the spell function called by Speed Down.  The answer is that there is no difference between that function and the one called by other status-inflicting spells, namely Silence, Sleep Flower, Balloon and Change Form.  Queue and I speculated earlier that Speed Down might originally have been intended to do more, than just inflict Slow(<target>'s tangled!), but in Vanilla that's literally all it does.  You could change its spell pointer to 0xF4EB and there would be no difference in its function.

Hope that helps...  :)

Not sure what you're asking in regards to Dispel Magic.  I'll... leave that one to whoever knows more than me right now, which would be quite a long list.  Sorry about that...  :-[
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
Post by: hmsong on September 13, 2019, 04:42:34 am
@zoolgremlin

No, thanks for the info.  I welcome all sources of information.  You wouldn't know how to separate "Slow" from "Tangle", would you?  I heard Slow slows down the recharge speed, while Tangle slows down the movement speed.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190913
Post by: Queue on September 13, 2019, 06:41:46 pm
Version 2019-09-13:
https://ufile.io/bvqrztqw (https://ufile.io/bvqrztqw)

Changes:
- Fixed compatibility issue between Magic\Early_Luna and Text\VWF_Edition (or Text\Relocalized)
- Implemented Balance\Dangerous_Poison_And_Engulf; engulf does 1/32 of current health per pulse, poison does 1/64 of maximum health per pulse
- Fixed Balance\Reduce_Moon_Saber_Healing to actively update the UI upon healing
- Clarified Magic\Extend_Buff_Time description: it affects both stat buffs and stat debuffs and extends them by 50% over vanilla duration (also Mana Magic, guess I'll add that to the description later)
- Implemented Magic\Spell_System_Extensions; by itself it should have no effect, but it allows for more complex permutations of spell effects and adds 20 new spell slots (not currently practical for use by players, but easily used by enemies)
- For demonstration purposes of Spell_System_Extensions, implemented the following:
-- _Evil_Gate_-_NPC_Version; adds a copy of Evil_Gate that isn't affected by the increased mana cost of Evil_Gate_-_More_Useful for Dark Lich to use
-- _Speed_Down_-_Hit_And_Evade_Down; adds stat debuffs to the Tangle status effect inflicted by Speed Down
-- _Speed_Up_-_Detangle; makes Speed_Up cure Tangle status in addition to overwriting accuracy and evade down with accuracy and evade up



-- Spell_System_Extensions --
Search the ZPS file for "SPELL DATA" to see spell data tables for reference.

I have not added a means for a spell to cost health upon cast yet, nor modified Dispel Magic (to also strip Lucid Barrier, for example). Was quite a bit of work to overhaul the spell functions as I did so wanted to get something functional out for testing.

I could really use verification that Moon Saber updates the UI (when using Reduce_Moon_Saber_Healing), and that all spells still work as expected. I did a fair bit of testing but spell code was pretty heavily overhauled; I think I maintained all vanilla behavior though.



Mr X, I can basically guarantee that Acid Storm is not meant to poison despite the leftover spell data. It looks like it had previously poisoned and they changed its bonus effect from poison to defense down; it would have been trivial for the Acid Storm function to also cause a status effect and seems intentionally excluded. The spell data was left simply because it didn't matter.

SpiffSpoo, I'm not really concerned about keeping the first post in good shape; up-to-date info is contained in the patcher's feature descriptions.

hmsong, I got quite a bit sorted out. It'll likely take some time looking at the new SSE code and data to see how I set up spell data to let you specify which features a spell has, but I tried to make the data fairly verbose.

In vanilla, Speed Down's custom function is identical to the generic Status Effect spell function.

Dispel Magic's ability to strip wall is based purely on its spell level, whether you multi-target cast it or not and how many wall uses remain on the target. If you cast it but see the wall message, that means the target had wall but the cast did not reduce remaining wall uses to 0. My best guess for what you saw when trying to use the dispel magic spell function on other spells is either they were a lower level element, or the remaining uses on your target kept happening to be high enough to be only partially removed and it confused your expected results. Looking at the code, it shouldn't behave different based on which spell calls the dispel magic spell function.

I'm not really sure regarding Slow and Tangle; I didn't think anything affected recharge speed aside from the agility stat affecting what your recharge % starts at. If Tangle affects agility that would have an effect, but honestly I haven't checked what Tangle status does other than reducing movement speed and changing the hit chance calculation.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190913
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 13, 2019, 09:22:46 pm
Whoa... the latest update has changed so much, I can't believe it.  Seriously Queue, I don't think we can possibly thank you enough, unless you have any ideas about how to do that.  :o

Legendary!  There's no better word for you, I'm sure of it!   :beer:

Ermm... Regarding the issue of Slow and Tangle, I suspect there may be some confusion here, on hmsong's part, about what those two terms mean in the game.  If true, this would not surprise me at all, as I was also shaking my head about it back in the day.  I'm still examining stuff for a better understanding, but here's my interpretation of the matter so far.

For clarity's sake (hopefully), I'll use HHS' two terms for the rest of this Post.  As far as I'm concerned now, they're Tangle and Mire, respectively.

HHS's info on TASVideos mentions two status defects he referred to as Slow and Tangled.  What he doesn't mention, though, is that Tangled is dummied-out.  If eg. a character gets hit with Speed Down or certain enemy attacks, such as Leaden Glare, the status defect that is inflicted is the one HHS calls "Slow".  If you look on the Stats screen for that character, there will be a message saying SLOWED DOWN, right where Mana Power and Money are normally displayed.

I believe Regrs stated on one occasion that nothing in the game inflicts what HHS calls Tangled at any time, including Speed Down.  However, if you were to inflict the status on a character with a cheat code, as I have done, the message displayed on the Stats screen is not SLOWED DOWN, but TANGLED UP.  Also, inflicting the status does not call a Message Event at the top of the screen when outside of the menu.  Whereas with Slow, you get a Message Event saying "<TargetName>'s tangled!"  Confused yet?!  Well, a nice dose of Medical Herb or Remedy will be just what the good Doctor ordered, but for the time being, I cannot blame you for that.   :D  (To inflict Tangled on a character, use these codes:  7EE19008 for the Boy, 7EE39008 for the Girl, and/or 7EE59008 on the Sprite.  Tangled's bit is wedged between Slow's bit and the one for Unconscious aka. Sleep.)

Tangled is from what I can tell an incomplete status defect, the only negative effect it seems to have is to disable the Targeting, Equip Armor and Action Grid options on a character's Ring Menu.  If that's really the only thing it affects, inflicting it on monsters would be monumentally pointless.  Also, I seem to recall Regrs saying that if something other than a cheat code were to inflict Tangled, it would only last for a single 'tick' unless the code for it was changed, wherever that is.

Slow in Vanilla stops a character from running and halves their walking speed, causing them to move with the same shuffling animation that is seen when charging a weapon and in certain cutscenes.  It does not seem to affect the rate of Stamina regeneration, though it does affect Hit% calculation in a rather... strange fashion.  Which likely should be NOP'd out, but no matter.  But on the other hand, while checking out all this wacky stuff, I did notice that in a Turbo-altered ROM, Slow does indeed halve the rate of Stamina regeneration.  That would logically imply that one of the mods/patches applicable by Turbo, changes the Slow status to have that effect, but right now I don't know which one.

Since you were surprised by it as well, Queue, I gather it's not one of your mods/patches.  I actually like the new effect, as that would probably affect monsters as well, whereas their movement speeds don't seem affected at all by Slow.  In either version of the game.  Not like Mr. Mushboom needs to walk any slower, but this very sadly makes Slow in Vanilla (almost) completely worthless, if it's true.  Except when inflicted by monsters, which is annoying for a few seconds at least.

In any case, the dummied-out state of Tangled does present an opportunity to add a new status defect to the game, that is more functional and lasts longer than a 'tick'.  I haven't really got any ideas about what that new defect should be, or what attacks/weapons to add it to, though.  Nor would I know how to change the function of any status defect.   :-[

I feel I must apologize for the lengthy explanation, sadly I couldn't think of a way to make it any more concise without confusing the issue even further.  Hope this helps, at least a little.  If it doesn't, again I don't blame you...  :)

I have restarted the process of writing up and formatting data tables, for SoM Vanilla, in Google Docs.  Which is better than Wordpad in at least some respects.  Here's the Link again in case this Post starts a new page:

Secret of Mana Information (Vanilla) (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1fAVv9BMl7N9wPnPzpCkSDkVYp0le1BkU?usp=sharing)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190913
Post by: Queue on September 13, 2019, 11:02:31 pm
I suspect you're mixing up Tangled (0x0004) and Paralyzed (the dummied out status effect, 0x0008). Tangled is the effect that makes the stats screen show Slowed Down, but pretty much everywhere else is called Tangled. You have things straight in your data tables.

I've been referring to status effect 0x0001 as "busy" since it's set while opening a treasure chest. If I recall correctly it stops some animations from playing, presumably to prevent them from interfering with the chest opening animation.

Speed_Up_-_Faster_Recharge appears to be what makes Tangled status affect recharge speed, though that isn't something I remembered (it's a feature from zhaDe's New Gameplay Improvement). Despite having basically worked on Secret of Mana daily for the past 7 months, there are still parts of zhaDe's code I haven't explored, let alone vanilla Secret of Mana code. I've sometimes described doing something Secret of Mana related "over coffee" and I often literally mean it; my morning routine has taken on picking away at SoM code while reading the news and sipping a mug of coffee. But a little time each day for 7 months has given me plenty of time to forget things.

As for the dummied out status, paralyzed, if left as-is is a bit on the boring side; balloon, petrify, sleep, engulf and frosty are all forms of paralysis. I'm mulling over a new spell effect but I intend for it to be beneficial, and sorta doubt I'd need to hijack the status effect system to implement it (probably going to have it be a mutually exclusive option with lucid barrier instead, so can use the lucid barrier variables to maintain state).

Oh, and the new data tables are looking beautiful.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190913
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 14, 2019, 12:23:40 am
Yes, Paralyzed was how Regrs referred to it as well.  Only HHS called it Tangled, but I'm not sure if that's what confused hmsong, or even if he is confused.  So that set me off rambling endlessly again, haha.   :-[

Yes, status 0x0001 only gets set by a character opening a chest, and disables some animations.

Glad you like the new tables, sorry to say I haven't worked on them yet today, but I'm all set up to do that right now.  No worries about forgetting, or not yet knowing everything, about zhaDe's mods.  We can only do so much with the time we have.   :)

Alright, back to the tables I go.  Hope you have a good one...
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190913
Post by: hmsong on September 14, 2019, 09:02:32 am
@Queue @zoolgremlin

Holy crap guys.  zoolgremlin explained it so well (about Tangled/Slow (beyond my knowledge, really).  I really can't add anything more to it.  Thank you.

About Dispel Magic.  I was referring to that if I were to use Dispel effect on another spell (ex: Freeze), then when I use Dispel on Walled enemy, it would bounce back (the magic levels were all maxed) and the spell would dispel my characters.  However, if I were to use the original Dispel on the same Walled enemy (after the Wall was refreshed new), it would ignore Wall and just dispel the Wall on the intended target.

Also, is there any way I can use the new "accuracy/eva down" effect on other spells?  I want to add that effect to Lucent Beam, but since that didn't exist among the original spells (except one of random Lunar Magic effects), I couldn't add it.  Please help?

Also, can you put up the ZPS syntex for the [Herbal Boost] patch that Kethinov put online?  Although I'm not particularly interested in the spells themselves, I want to know how to switch names, graphics, and colors of the spell.  I can change the element and effect myself.  I want to learn to switch Fire Bouquet with another spell (so that Primm would have access to attack magic other than Salamander and Lumina elements).

Or better yet, maybe you can explain to me how to do those things, as you did with all other things you taught me.  I was able to absorb and apply those knowledge (truly thank you for that).

Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190913
Post by: Mr X on September 14, 2019, 02:53:55 pm
Not sure how possible it is to do tweaks like these, but I was thinking of something pretty crazy the other day, in terms of making the dark lich more challenging and interesting for a final boss. He really doesnt need all these elemental spells to cast. What I was thinking:

Remove the undine/gnome/sylphid spells of his except hp absorb

Of course he has the shade spells

As replacements give him as lunar magic, mp absorb, moon energy, and moon saber but this one with a twist, he casts Moon Saber onto your party like the gigas bosses, him being undead you know what that means. :o
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190913
Post by: hmsong on September 14, 2019, 06:52:15 pm
@Mr X

Moon Saber (or all sabers, really) is easy to get rid of -- switch weapons.  Lunar Magic isn't gonna do much either, since it can actually RESTORE HP/MP to your entire party.  MP Absorb is gonna be annoying.

But this'll make Mana Beast challenging -- Make him cast Lucid Barrier instead of Wall.  In short, the only way to damage Mana Beast is to use Dispel on Mana Beast, and then have Randi damage it in the short window before Mana Beast casts Lucid Barrier again.  Coincidentally, this'll give Popoi something to do in the final battle.

Of course, you would need to make it so that Dispel Magic actually gets rid of Lucid Barrier.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190913
Post by: kethinov on September 14, 2019, 08:17:00 pm
- Fixed compatibility issue between Magic\Early_Luna and Text\VWF_Edition (or Text\Relocalized)

Was this a bug in my original code, or in your port?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190913
Post by: hmsong on September 14, 2019, 09:00:17 pm
@Queue

Okay, I must ask you again... this may actually be related to my previous [how do I apply acc/eva down on Lucent Beam] question.  Your new patch (190913) changed a lot with the Spell Tweak.  In the previous version, it looked like:

Code: [Select]
&(mods)\Magic\spell_NewEffects\spellData_Changes\.asm

' earth slide, power
@OFF $D02ADA
RAW 38

' freeze, power
@OFF $D02C5A
RAW 38

' fireball, power
@OFF $D02DDA
RAW 2B

' lava wave, power
@OFF $D02E5A
RAW 34

' thunderbolt, power
@OFF $D02F9A
RAW 41

But now, it looks like:

Code: [Select]
&(mods)\Magic\spell_NewEffects\spellData_Changes\.asm

@OFF %Spell.Data.Earth_Slide%Power%
RAW 38

@OFF %Spell.Data.Freeze%Power%
RAW 38

@OFF %Spell.Data.Fireball%Power%
RAW 2B

@OFF %Spell.Data.Lava_Wave%Power%
RAW 34

@OFF %Spell.Data.Thunderbolt%Power%
RAW 41

So if I wanted to edit the pwr/cost/target/effect of spells, what do I do?  Previously, I did something like this:

Code: [Select]
' moon energy, target
@OFF $D03218
RAW 01

' moon energy, cost
@OFF $D0321F
RAW 04

' dark force, power
@OFF $D0341A
RAW 4F

' dark force, damage + status effect
@OFF $C8E84B
ADR.16 $C8EBE5

' dark force, + poison
@OFF $D0341D
RAW 00 20

But obviously, I can't do that anymore.  I assume you changed the format, because it had something to do with applying the new effects (new NPC Evil Gate, Speed Down effects, etc).  I assume you made things easier to edit (for you, at least), since you may do more of this stuff.  Please help?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190913
Post by: Queue on September 14, 2019, 10:34:32 pm
zoolgremlin, I found what HHS was talking about: stats screen messages for status effects are imperfect. It looks like it has messages for status effect 0x0004 and 0x0008 backwards, refers to confusion as "DIZZY" and being dead as "UNCONSCIOUS" (while it calls what is called elsewhere unconscious, "SLEEPING"). Among other minor issues. I'll probably type out a quick bug fix so it at least has the tangled and paralyze messages in order (of note, paralyze isn't the official name for status 0x0008; the game only refers to it as "can't move!" and, arguably, "SLOWED DOWN").

Mr X, definitely possible, though I don't think I'm especially interested in tackling that at this time. Here's the data for his AI that handles casting spells:
Spoiler:
Code: [Select]
[08: Cast Spell: 'Evil Gate' On 'Current Target']
02E972: 00 EB00         ;Play Animation: BossAnimationScript_DarkLich_SpellCast_EvilGate.
02E975: 0E 24 00        ;Cast Spell: Evil Gate. Target: Current Target.
02E978: FF              ;End Command Subset.

[09: Cast Spell: 'HP Absorb' On 'Current Target']
02E979: 00 EC00         ;Play Animation: BossAnimationScript_DarkLich_SpellCast_HPAbsorb.
02E97C: 0E 08 00        ;Cast Spell: HP Absorb. Target: Current Target.
02E97F: FF              ;End Command Subset.

[0A: Cast Spell: 'Dark Force' On 'Current Target']
02E980: 00 ED00         ;Play Animation: BossAnimationScript_DarkLich_SpellCast_DarkForce.
02E983: 0E 25 00        ;Cast Spell: Dark Force. Target: Current Target.
02E986: FF              ;End Command Subset.

[0B: Cast Spell: 'Dispel Magic' On 'Current Target']
02E987: 00 EE00         ;Play Animation: BossAnimationScript_DarkLich_SpellCast_DispelMagic.
02E98A: 0E 26 00        ;Cast Spell: Dispel Magic. Target: Current Target.
02E98D: FF              ;End Command Subset.

[0C: Cast Spell: 'Thunderbolt' On 'Current Target']
02E98E: 00 EF00         ;Play Animation: BossAnimationScript_DarkLich_SpellCast_Thunderbolt.
02E991: 0E 13 00        ;Cast Spell: Thunderbolt. Target: Current Target.
02E994: FF              ;End Command Subset.

[0D: Cast Spell: 'Earth Slide' On 'Current Target']
02E995: 00 F000         ;Play Animation: BossAnimationScript_DarkLich_SpellCast_EarthSlide.
02E998: 0E 00 00        ;Cast Spell: Earth Slide. Target: Current Target.
02E99B: FF              ;End Command Subset.

[0E: Cast Spell: 'Freeze' On 'Current Target']
02E99C: 00 F100         ;Play Animation: BossAnimationScript_DarkLich_SpellCast_Freeze.
02E99F: 0E 06 00        ;Cast Spell: Freeze. Target: Current Target.
02E9A2: FF              ;End Command Subset.

kethinov, functionally my port (specifically when adding support for VWF / Relocalized). Event 7FC is unused in vanilla, but used in VWF Edition (and so also Relocalized). I thought I verified 7FC was unused in VWF but I was incorrect. I moved the event to 7F2 which definitely probably maybe I hope is unused in VWF.

hmsong, you can continue to use the manually entered address form (i.e. $D02ADA), for spell data, but I set up variable names for the basic spell data entries to try and make things easier. An example:
Code: [Select]
' moon energy, target
@OFF $D03218
RAW 01
could instead be
Code: [Select]
@OFF %Spell.Data.Moon_Energy%Target%
RAW Spell.Target.Allies
Search the ZPS for "\SpellDataDefinitions.adf" to see valid vanilla values and "/01 SSE." to see extended stat values. (I'll add better search labels for the next version, like I currently have for "SPELL DATA")

Spell functions do require using the SSE.Func.* variable names if Spell_System_Extensions is On.
Code: [Select]
' dark force, damage + status effect
@OFF $C8E84B
ADR.16 $C8EBE5
becomes
Code: [Select]
@OFF Spell.List.Dark_Force
ADR.16 SSE.Func.Detrimental.DamageAndEffects
though SSE.Func.Detrimental.DamageAndStatsAndEffects would also work and the efficiency loss is negligible. Honestly, every basic damaging spell could be changed to SSE.Func.Detrimental.DamageAndStatsAndEffects and the stats and effects part would simply be ignored if stat or effect in that spell's data is 0.

Adding a stat change to Lucent Beam would involve setting Spell.List.Lucent_Beam to SSE.Func.Detrimental.DamageAndStats (or DamageAndStatsAndEffects) and setting its spell data for stat changes (%Spell.Data.Lucent_Beam%Stat%); refer to the aforementioned extended stat values to see what numbers mean which stats up/down.

I did get Kethinov's Herbal Boost hack imported so that'll be available next release. I also hammered out a Shadow Saber spell.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190913
Post by: hmsong on September 14, 2019, 11:15:56 pm
@Queue

Thank you.  I'll play around with it to see how I can use the new spell functions.  I hope it's not TOO complicated for me to figure out.

Also, thank you in advance for uploading Herbal Boost.  I'd really like to change the names/color of some spells, after switching places with other spells.

Shadow Saber?  I'm guessing it's replacing Evil Gate?  The sound of that spell seems REALLY cool  However, what will it do, other than doing Shade damage?  Poison?  Not too many tough enemies (by that point in game) are weak against Shade element (only Dread Slime and that chain guy in the final dungeon area).  Then again, Evil Gate was terrible too (but it had a cool blackhole animation).

You saidd that you have 20 more spell slots?  Does that mean you're thinking about adding more spell varieties? (ex: instead of 3 spells per element per character, there would be 4 spells?)  That would be amazing.

I must say, wow.  Engulf and Poison is super deadly.  On my Lv99 Randi, Sleep Flower from that plant enemy in the mountains did 300+ damage, and Blaze Wall from Beast Zombie did almost 500 damage.  Way more than what Mana Beast can do to you.  Perhaps a bit TOO deadly?  I wish Engulf didn't overshadow Poison and Balloon so much though (well, Poison lasts longer than Engulf, I think).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190913
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 14, 2019, 11:29:41 pm
Hi, everyone.  Whoa, a lot of discussion points came up all of a sudden!   :o

@Queue  About the Stat screen messages, now that you mention it that makes perfect sense, I just hadn't given it much thought.  If the message system that's faulty, as well as the status defects themselves, I should go and find where the data for all the messages are.

Last time, I forgot to say that you really got my attention, with the idea for a new spell effect that is mutually exclusive with Lucid Barrier.  But then I put it to one side in my mind, when going back to writing up and editing the new table documents.  Sorry about that, didn't mean to ignore your idea.  I am also not against a Shadow Saber, just don't know if I personally would replace Evil Gate with it.  But of course, that's not my decision.  I occasionally did wonder why there were 8 Elements and only 7 Sabers, 6 if you don't count Mana Magic.  My best guess is that lack of development time, forced Square to abandon putting in 3 more spells for Shade and Lumina.

I was able to use Herbal Boost (and Harder Final Boss) along with the ZPS, using the patcher's Edit Chain menu, they did not cause any compat issues that I could see in-game.  But I didn't think to mention that earlier, since the discussion was already aimed at other things.  Hmmmm...

Also, I am willing to check the Moon Saber update and the spell system update, and will do so sometime today or tomorrow.  Got plenty of time for it.  Ermm...  :laugh:

@hmsong  Oh, so that's what you meant about Dispel Magic.  I'll try it myself and see how it works in-game.  Can't see how that would happen or even be possible.  How bizarre!

But it's good to hear you liked the (looooong) explanation about Slow&Tangle (or Tangle&Mr. Dummy Status, craaaaazy...).   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190913
Post by: Mr X on September 15, 2019, 12:22:40 am
Queue Ok thanks. Hm perhaps I should get myself into learning SoM hacking and be able to contribute  :)

Oh a Shadow Saber sounds nice. Wonder if that one empty spot will be used so that the Girl will be able to cast shade magic also. It always bothered me why weren't the Sprite and the Girl be able to cast lumima or shade while having one missing slot for a spirit. Of will that be just the Sprites fourth shade spell?

I agree with the assessement above that not many enemies and bosses are weak to shade, those that are weak to shade are mixed with undead enemies most of the times so you wont use it either. Except dread slime the only boss you may ever wanna use it against.

Personally I never found myself in a situation where I had to use especially saber magic on enemy mobs.

I noticed there is no enemy that is also weak to dryad also. I just use his burst on an undead/weak to lumina or non elemental enemy which may be intended that way?

September 15, 2019, 01:59:34 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Poison status and engulf sure have become powerful. I dont have any issue with that so far tho, I am not really overleveled and am managing just fine.

It refarins enemies from becoming far weaker also or you becoming too powerful. I remember at some point at the original game I played poorly just so the enemies/bosses may have a chance at my party, that's how unbalanced the original game is imo, you simply become too powerful, spells aren't set to be used properly you just spammed your strongest spell, useless spells and so on.

Turbo has improved drastically over such things imo, tho I still refrain my characters reaching too high levels but this is still being updated regularly.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190913
Post by: hmsong on September 15, 2019, 02:47:37 am
@Mr X

Yeah, SoM isn't really a difficult game.  But it doesn't change the fact that it's so fun.  And with Turbo patch, things are becoming just awesome.

Personally, I would have liked "takes long time to summon a spirit for a spell to come out" than "magic recoil".  Similar to SD3.  That way, if Queue makes things so that spell casting can be interrupted, the spells become a lot more difficult to use (and chaining would be very difficult, if possible at all).  It wouldn't affect monsters casting speed though (nor their spells can be interrupted), since monsters have natural magic (although limited).


@Queue

I'm sure you already have your own ideas about Shadow Saber, but would it be possible to make it so that Shadow Saber weapons cut the HP by 50%, in addition to the actual damage?  Similar to what Petrify does.  Only to non-Shade enemies, of course (thereby sort-of implementing the Evil Gate).  That way, Shadow Saber would actually be useful, at least, against all non-Shade regular enemies.

Speaking of which, Can you make it so that Petrify isn't so damn OP?  That thing is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190913
Post by: Mr X on September 15, 2019, 03:22:53 am
hmsong that is a neat idea. That way dispel would be used to interrupt your party to cast a spell also.

Another option is make dispel also work in a way that when used on a character besides clearing every shield/buff, it gives the sprite or the girl also "magic recoil".

September 15, 2019, 05:32:29 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
@Mr X

Moon Saber (or all sabers, really) is easy to get rid of -- switch weapons.  Lunar Magic isn't gonna do much either, since it can actually RESTORE HP/MP to your entire party.  MP Absorb is gonna be annoying.

But this'll make Mana Beast challenging -- Make him cast Lucid Barrier instead of Wall.  In short, the only way to damage Mana Beast is to use Dispel on Mana Beast, and then have Randi damage it in the short window before Mana Beast casts Lucid Barrier again.  Coincidentally, this'll give Popoi something to do in the final battle.

Of course, you would need to make it so that Dispel Magic actually gets rid of Lucid Barrier.

I just saw this post, my bad.

Oh damn, didn't really think of that. It kinda takes away from the gigas bosses also being able to do that, maybe in the future when that gets "fixed" I guess. One way would be if Moon saber gets casted on your sword you will have either to use light saber back if you wanna keep using the sword, a herb, or switch to another weapon, but even if you switch back to the sword the effect wont be removed till it gets naturally or via some saber magic/herb item.

I was thinking of making Lunar magic more useful. And yeah that's the thing with mp absorb, and the theme behind an undead enemy - steal your lifeforce in form of HP and MP, should be difficult to kill them, and why I thought of him using spells like these anyway, freeze, earth slide, thunder storm are redundant for him to use when he has dark force of similar power or evil gate, buff himself up with Moon energy which you may wanna use dispel or his physical based attacks will be a pain in the ass.

That would be cool, Mana Beast fight with the barrier instead of wall. Barrier, dispel and lucent beam should be enough for him, or if I wanna be a little unfair, add a fourth spell like flame saber on himself, fitting for a dragon engulfing your party with his attacks, so you may wanna have some engulf resisting ring equiped. While hid dispel could undo your mana sword magic, buffs.

Makes more effective uses of equipment and strategy to fight them.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190913
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 15, 2019, 04:49:05 pm
hmsong  Okay, just very briefly, I hex-edited both a Vanilla ROM and a Turbo one, making Earth Slide call the function normally used by Dispel Magic.  Then I cast Wall twice, once on the Girl and once again to bounce it to an enemy.  Finally, I cast the modded Earth Slide on the enemy with Wall.  In both Vanilla and Turbo, Earth Slide did indeed bounce off the enemy and hit one of my characters.  When it bounced onto the Girl, her Wall was gone, just like you'd expect.

I don't think this is something that was introduced by any of Turbo's features, or anyone else's mod/patch.  It's Vanilla behaviour.  So unfortunately, it's... not exactly a bug, since the devs didn't intend for any other spell ID, to call the [Stamina&Charge=0_AND_Remove_OR_Reduce_Magic_Effects] function in the first place.

By the way, Lunar Magic has 8 different effects it can do, not counting the dummied-out one.  Most of those effects are more detrimental to PCs than monsters/bosses, whether the Sprite or an enemy casts it.  The reason being that all monsters are immune to Pygmy and Moogle, and all bosses are immune to Pygmy, Moogle, Transform, Confusion and Sleep.  So if Dark Lich's AI was altered to cast Lunar Magic, the only two effects that would be of any concern to him are:

-  Enemy/party HP recovered
-  Raring to go!  <TargetName>'s <stat1> <stat2> <stat3> <stat4> Up!  This one is obviously bad for him.

The first one would indeed restore all PC HP, but it would restore his too, making the battle last longer for all parties, not just one or the other.  They're both playing on a level-field, in other words.  So not that bad for ol' Thannytoss.     :D

Also, I forget who, but someone claimed that no enemy in Vanilla casts Lunar Magic.  There is actually one that does - Mimic Box.  The reason most people don't know about it, is that Mimic Box is usually too busy being dead, or being run away from in terror, to do that.   :laugh:

Not sure why you'd want Petrify's effect to be nerfed while giving the original effect to a new Saber, though, if you think the "currHP/2" effect is ridiculous.  <shrug>

Mr. X  The idea of Dark Lich casting Moon Energy on himself (something no enemy does in Vanilla) is a pretty interesting one, and intimidating too.  Just to let you know, Vanilla Dispel Magic does not remove Moon Energy, so that'd be another thing to alter in [Stamina&Charge=0_AND_Remove_OR_Reduce_Magic_Effects], if you want it to be possible.

I honestly didn't expect this thread to be consumed by discussion about rebalancing SoM.  But... I guess if Queue doesn't mind... <shrug>   :)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190913
Post by: hmsong on September 15, 2019, 07:11:12 pm
Yeah, I knew that Dispel Magic piercing Wall was a vanilla behavior.  I just wanted to figure out if there was a way to make things so that other magic can pierce Wall (Buff spells, for example, so that Mech Rider III doesn't do stupid things like casting Speed Up to your party).

I'm the one who mentioned that no enemies cast Lunar Magic.  And I must say, I did NOT know Mimic Box can do that.  I've fought that thing numerous times, but I haven't seen it use it, for the reasons you mentioned.  Thanks for the info.

I want Petrify to be nerfed, because it's the 2nd spirit you get, and you'd end up using it A LOT to mow down so many enemies throughout the entire game.  And I want Shadow Saber to be powerful, because by the time you get Shadow Saber, you'd be 2/3 or 3/4 way finished with the game.  Besides, most tough enemies (esp at the final dungeon) are Shade element, so 1/2 damage wouldn't even work (in fact, it will do LESS than the normal sword swings, since Saber damage will only do 75% to those who resists).  Besides, Petrify not only [1/2 damage + melee damage], but it also freezes the victim.  Way too OP.  At least Shadow Saber won't do that.

Halving the HP from Petrify is fine (esp since Poison and Engulf were powered up like crazy), but maybe make it immune to physical damages?  Kinda like Frost.  And speaking of which, Frost sucks.  It freezes the victim, but you can't do anything to it physically (I think Magic works).  But of course, if Frost allowed physical damage the victim, then Frost would be the same as Balloon.

I wish the creators were more creative with Status Effects.  For example, Balloon would allow victims to attack in all direction, but he can't move.  Or Engulf would allow movement (while DPS thing), but he can't attack (or cast magic or switch equipment).  There are so many creative ways to make Stat Effects less boring.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: Queue on September 15, 2019, 08:45:44 pm
Version 2019-09-15:
https://ufile.io/x73if8tp (https://ufile.io/x73if8tp)

Changes:
- Added Kethinov's Herbal Boost hack; the mana cost changes are split off into their own separate options just preceding it
- Implemented Magic\Blaze_Wall_-_NPC_Version
- Implemented Magic\Blaze_Barrier_-_Replaces_Blaze_Wall; 2-10 hit (based on spell level) damage shield buff, mutually exclusive with Lucid Barrier, enemies not immune to engulf will be engulfed if they land a melee hit
- Implemented Magic\Shadow_Saber_-_Replaces_Evil_Gate; mana tapping saber buff, especially useful for the sprite to use on the girl, pretty inefficient until Shade is leveled up
- Implemented Magic\Lava_Wave_-_Engulf; reverts Spell_Power_Tweaks change to Lava Wave and gives it the engulf status effect since the girl no longer has Blaze Wall
- Implemented Text\Tangled_Up_TextFix
- Implemented Bug_Fixes\Lucid_Barrier_Defense; if the target of Lucid Barrier had 512+ defense, Lucid Barrier's defense would be calculated incorrectly

Technical Changes:
- Added more searchable "SPELL DATA"-related comments in the ZPS file; search for "SPELL DATA" (without quotes) as a shortcut to find spell related defines and data tables
- Tiny tweak to Moon Saber HUD refresh code to save 2 cycles
- Optimized SSE.Func.Detrimental.Magic_Absorb
- The data shuffle buffer at $FFFF00 given a pseudo label of %[]% to make it theoretically relocatable
- Added variable case letter defines to make Proper-caser compatibility easier when adding new spell names / descriptions:
TEXT ^B l^ a^ z^ e^ _ ^B a^ r^ r^ i^ e^ r^ \end
^-suffixed letters are lowercase with Proper-caser On, and UPPERCASE without
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 15, 2019, 09:24:47 pm
@Queue  Good to see you again.  Whoa, I didn't know that Lucid Barrier was bugged like that.  Thanks very much for the latest update.   :woot!:

The HUD refreshes after landing a hit with Moon Saber just fine.  Haven't checked all the spells to see if they still work the same way, after the [Spell_System_Extensions] addition, but I'm gonna check now and then get back to the table writeups.  Hope you have a good one...  :)

@hmsong  Sorry for the confusion, my fault for not explaining it fully or clearly.  What I should have said, was that I think the battle system checks for a spell's ID, and if it is anything other than 0x20 (Mana Magic Sprite),  0x23 (Mana Magic Grl), or 0x26 (Dispel Magic), then it will bounce off Wall if present.  It looks like changing any other spell's pointer to call [Stamina&Charge=0_AND_Remove_OR_Reduce_Magic_Effects] does not change its ID as checked by the system, so it will still bounce, despite borrowing Shade's "spell function domain", in a sense.   :-\

I see what you mean now about Petrify, it's about making an earlier-obtained spell less game-breaking.  Sorry, didn't think of that...  :-[



Okay, back to the spell-test and tables.  Hi ho!

EDIT:  Silly me put the Spell IDs above in decimal, despite putting 0x before them.  Corrected.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: hmsong on September 15, 2019, 09:51:55 pm
Few questions:

- Lucid Barrier has "Defense" stat of some kind?  I thought it simply nullifies damage for few hits.  And does that fix the Dispel/Lucid Barrier problem?
- I'm guessing NPC versions of Evil Gate and Blaze Wall are the same as the original Evil Gate/Blaze Wall spells?
- So... does Blaze Wall also nullify melee attacks?  Or reflect spells?  Or maybe it doesn't do any of those, and simply damages the melee enemies?
- Mana tapping?  I'm guessing it absorbs MP?  So, can it even damage enemies that DON'T have MP? (such as Rabite, Mushboom, etc).

Of course, I can simply test them and find out, but you may want to put some descriptions of these new spells.  Just a suggestion.


@zoolgremlin

Thank you for your explanation.  I didn't know that's how it worked.


Indeed, I need to do some testing too.  I couldn't really test the previous version, because I had stomach problems.

September 15, 2019, 10:23:58 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
I keep forgetting to ask:

- Where is the new Sword Drop enemy in the Mana Fortress?  I don't see any kind of new teleporter.  Maybe I just suck at spotting things.
- I don't understand how [Trip_Portraits] affects the icons.  I was comparing them, and I don't see the difference.  Can someone post the pics of difference?
- How does MSU-1 work?  It says in the description that I need to download some music files (which I did).  Do I just put that in the same folder as the patch folder?  I don't get it.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: Queue on September 15, 2019, 10:43:10 pm
Quick answers; intend to write more when I get the chance.

Quote
Lucid Barrier has "Defense"[...]?
Lucid Barrier has its own hit point pool and defense. When cast, spell power / target count = Lucid Barrier Health (if it's greater than the max health of the target, instead it's capped at their max health, so boy can reach 999 Lucid Barrier Health, girl and sprite 800), Lucid Barrier Defense is target's defense divided by 2, divided by target count, but it's an 8-bit value while normal defense is 16-bit, and there was no code to account for a result >255. If Lucid Barrier Health is even 1, it will eat all the damage of an incoming hit before it drops; this might be why people thought it blocked X number of hits.

Nope, haven't modified Dispel Magic yet.

NPC versions of Evil Gate and Blaze Wall = identical to vanilla versions.

Quote
Blaze Wall also nullify melee attacks?
No, you take damage as normal; it simply engulfs enemies that hit you with melee (if they're not immune).

Yes, it absorbs MP. Its damage has no relation to enemy MP; the mana absorb is separate from otherwise normal Shade element saber damage bonus. If an enemy is a ghost/undead, you'll lose mana and they'll gain but the health damage will go as normal. None of this applies to the boy, for him it's just the standard saber damage buff and Shade element.

Farmable Sword Orb is meant to be at least a little hidden; the teleporter is in the second full-size area of the Mana Fortress (after the Buffy fight). Give it one more look but I guess I can spill the beans if you still can't find it. Honestly though, it's not invisible or anything, just one of those green teleport tiles in a slightly unusual place.

For Trim_Portraits, check the corners of the sprite's HUD picture; without there should be sprite hair in the far corners outside the yellow frame, and with, those 4 pixels are transparent.

For MSU-1, it depends on which emulator you're using, as different emulators (and the SD2SNES) have different naming and file location requirements. Tell me the emulator you're using and I can help.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: hmsong on September 16, 2019, 01:39:08 am
Thank you for your explanations on what the new spells do.  I shall experiment, if my health would allow it.

And I found it.  If you hadn't told me that it was in the 2nd part (after Buffy), I may have taken a lot longer time to find it.  Also, the teleportation back sends back to the beginning of the 2nd part instead of the initial teleporter.  Was that intentional?

What exactly is HUD picture?  Is it the normal game sprite?  Or is it the face icon on the "equipped weapon"?  Or is it the pic on the status screen?

I'm using zsnes v1.51.  Thanks in advance.

Also, for the next patch set, would you consider putting Kethinov's "Harder Final Boss" patch?  And within that, could you modify a section so that the Mana Beast resists all elements? (Mana Beast's all-element resist comes from [Useful Evil Gate] patch).  And if you end up fixing that Lucid Barrier/Dispel bug, I'd really appreciate it if you replace Mana Beast's Wall with Lucid Barrier.  Mana Beast's All-Resist will pretty much make it become immune to all spells anyways, so Wall is unnecessary.  And it won't make Mana Sword Magic so ridiculously OP.  It's gonna be a LONG battle though, but in fun (?) ways.  And it'll give Popoi something to do (aka Dispel Magic) in the final battle.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: Mr X on September 16, 2019, 05:00:51 am
My bad if the rebalancing enemies stuff is consideted off topic in your thread Queue, at least for now.

The new update looks juicy. Tho I still expect in the future some enemies or bosses to use the fire wall as a shield similar to how the girl does also, preferanly after you have gained dispel magic.

Same applies for the Evil saber.

I like the mp consumption idea behind it, but as of right now I don't find the Evil Saber overall particularly useful. Evil Saber and the more useful version of Evil Gate would also go hand to hand together, 12 mp cost but restore your mp manually, works on any enemy/boss that isn't undead/shade resistant, while being able to restore mp during said boss battle, or with the amap absorb spell, just something to think about. You wont use these on the undead enemies, but they are usable on the rest.

hmsong the spells keep getting modified, I would honestly wait on balancing out enemies/bosses in general till the spells are more or less finalized.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: Queue on September 16, 2019, 06:07:51 am
Quote from: Mr X
My bad if the rebalancing enemies stuff is consideted off topic in your thread Queue, at least for now.
On the contrary, I'm quite pleased. Forums are for discussion. People who don't want to read it can skip it.

Still not ready for a full response post but wanted to answer hmsong's MSU-1 question before calling it a night.

Quote from: hmsong
I'm using zsnes v1.51.

Okay, first, we need to verify you're using the official ZSNES 1.51 because that's the only version Turbo's MSU-1 ZSNES support works on.
For reference: https://sourceforge.net/projects/zsnes/files/zsnes/ZSNES%20v1.51/zsnesw151.zip/download (https://sourceforge.net/projects/zsnes/files/zsnes/ZSNES%20v1.51/zsnesw151.zip/download)
The executable, zsnesw.exe, is 594432 bytes, with hashes of:
MD5: 8e3f9f4ba68261d9976a79f842b2ecdd
SHA1: 50b379484494a7da992f40cf23bcb43b4b065e77
CRC32: 9cafb85d
If you don't know how to hash a file, don't worry about it, the file size should be good enough to confirm you're using the supported ZSNES build.

In ZSNES's CONFIG \ SOUND menu, SAMPLING RATE: must be set to 44100HZ, otherwise MSU-1 audio will play at the wrong speed (too fast or too slow, depending). The ZSNES MSU-1 code simply dumps the PCM audio data straight into its sound buffer as-is, and since the PCM files are 44100 Hz, ZSNES's audio must be set to 44100 Hz.

The standard approach is to make a new folder, and put the ROM file, MSU file, and all the PCM files in it.

Now, the critical part of using MSU-1 audio with any emulator (that supports MSU-1) is how the files are named. For most emulators, including ZSNES, the audio PCM files need to have the same filename as the ROM file. For example, if your ROM file is named:
Secret of Mana, Turbo.smc
Then all the PCM files need to be named like:
Secret of Mana, Turbo-0.pcm
Secret of Mana, Turbo-1.pcm
Secret of Mana, Turbo-58.pcm
etc.

Conversely, you can rename your ROM (and its SRM save file, and any save state ZST, ZS1, Z99, etc. files) to match the PCM files.

Any of the Secret of Mana MSU-1 downloads you'll find will have them named som_msu1-0.pcm or track-0.pcm. (So that'd mean renaming your ROM and supporting files to som_msu1.smc, som_msu1.srm, etc.)

In the SoM Turbo download, in the "readmes" folder, is a file named "SoM Turbo pcm Renamer.bat" which you can try to use to rename the PCM files. It renames the files to the "Secret of Mana, Turbo-##.pcm" pattern, but if you open the BAT file in a text editor, the fourth line is:
Code: [Select]
set romname=Secret of Mana, TurboWhich you should be able to change and save before running it to have it rename them to a filename of your choice.

If you use the renaming BAT file, make a new folder, put the PCM files in there, along with the BAT file, and run it from within that new folder. You don't want to use it in a folder containing other files that it may accidentally rename.

Ultimately, it would look like this and work in ZSNES, Snes9x, I think SD2SNES, maybe others. Folders indicated with [brackets]. Folder depth indicated with >.
Code: [Select]
[SNES] <-- this is a folder
> Secret of Mana, Turbo.smc <-- this is the ROM file
> Secret of Mana, Turbo.msu <-- this is an empty file
> Secret of Mana, Turbo-0.pcm <-- the PCM files are in the same folder as the ROM file
> Secret of Mana, Turbo-1.pcm
> ...
> Secret of Mana, Turbo-58.pcm
> Secret of Mana, Turbo-63.pcm

ZSNES has a second option for file layout. Folders indicated with [brackets]. Folder depth indicated with >.
Code: [Select]
[SNES] <-- this is a folder
> Secret of Mana, Turbo.smc <-- this is the ROM file
> [Secret of Mana, Turbo.msu] <-- this is a folder named like a file
>> Secret of Mana, Turbo-0.pcm <-- the PCM files are within the .msu-named folder
>> Secret of Mana, Turbo-1.pcm
>> ...
>> Secret of Mana, Turbo-58.pcm
>> Secret of Mana, Turbo-63.pcm

Lastly, the MSU-1 audio linked in the Turbo patcher is someone's selection of remixes. Personally, I use music ripped from the Secret of Mana remake, but that isn't something legally shared.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: hmsong on September 16, 2019, 07:58:32 am
@Queue

Thanks.  It works.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: Queue on September 16, 2019, 04:52:32 pm
Ok, here goes:

hmsong
Dispel Magic ---
When a spell lands on a target, if the target has Wall, code specifically checks if a spell is number (zero-based) 0x20, 0x23 or 0x26, to decide if it should bypass wall. This happens in code at addresses $D04CB6 (CMP #20), $D04CBA (CMP #23) and $D04CBE (CMP #26). I could probably rewrite code so that it checks for some flag on the incoming spell to decide if it bypasses Wall, but that's a fair bit of work so I'd need a reason to do it; your example of buffs bypassing Wall I don't consider adequate (Wall intentionally reflects buffs, so changing it just because of one dumb boss would mean changing tons of other circumstances when instead the boss could be changed to be less dumb).

Mana Beast ---
Here's Mana Beast AI spell assortment:
Spoiler:
Code: [Select]
[ManaBeast_CastSpell_Wall]
C2/9424: A92202  LDA #$0222 ;Cast Wall On Self.
C2/9427: 801C    BRA $9445

[ManaBeast_CastSpell_Defender]
C2/9429: A90502  LDA #$0205 ;Cast Defender On Self.
C2/942C: 8017    BRA $9445

[ManaBeast_CastSpell_LunarBoost]
C2/942E: A91C02  LDA #$021C ;Cast Lunar Boost On Self.
C2/9431: 8012    BRA $9445

[ManaBeast_CastSpell_SpeedUp]
C2/9433: A90402  LDA #$0204 ;Cast Speed Up On Self.
C2/9436: 800D    BRA $9445

[ManaBeast_CastSpell_LucidBarrier]
C2/9438: A92902  LDA #$0229 ;Cast Lucid Barrier On Self.
C2/943B: 8008    BRA $9445

[ManaBeast_CastSpell_DispelMagic]
C2/943D: A92600  LDA #$0026 ;Cast Dispel Magic On Current Target.
C2/9440: 8003    BRA $9445

[ManaBeast_CastSpell_LucentBeam]
C2/9442: A92800  LDA #$0028 ;Cast Lucent Beam On Current Target.
That doesn't cover the logic for how it decides what to cast. As you can see it "knows" more spells than it actually uses, and changing some of these would probably not interact well with its AI logic (e.g. it checks itself to see if it has Wall before casting Wall, but if you changed that spell, it wouldn't get the Wall buff, so would keep casting whatever spell replaces it since that spell wouldn't give it Wall).

Changing $C293D6 from BNE $93EE (RAW D0 16) to BNE $93DD (RAW D0 05) might make him start casting the other 4 self buffs, but they'd bounce off Wall. Changing $C293D0 into a jump (BRA $93DD, RAW 80 0B) to skip all the Wall logic, so he never Walls himself and just runs the other self buff logic might be somewhat functional. His AI logic (which appears to just be hardcoded and not using the boss AI scripting like the other bosses) in general would likely need some serious attention for him to suck less though.

Engulf (and Poison) ---
Next update will have Engulf damage scaled back from 1/32 of current health, to 1/64 of current health, so its damage is weaker than poison, but obviously it still paralyzes. When play testing, I found Engulf to be a bit too much, especially since I was adding it to new stuff willy-nilly. I'll probably be slapping it on the Rising Sun boomerang as well (I've been meaning to add a feature to stick some sort of effect on the 4 non-level-one weapons that don't have any effects).

20 Spell Slots ---
Not sure how possible it will be to give any of the additional spells to the player. Most spell stuff is very hardcoded. They're in groups of 6, per element, with each group divided in half for black and white (sprite / girl; intelligence / wisdom). I haven't verified, but I also suspect which elemental summon animation to show is hardcoded to be based on which of these spell groups the spell is in. Shade and Lumina also share one group with some special-case logic so the girl's spells in that group act as Lumina spells instead of Shade.

Spell Interruption ---
Pretty sure I'd said before I like this idea. Not sure yet how to make it work, but it's on my list of stuff to figure out. Overriding animations can be pretty difficult, on top of having to figure out the right way to handle checking spell casting state when taking damage to decide if interruption should happen.

Petrify ---
Yeah, petrify is a problem. I've always just had a personal rule to never use Stone Saber because it's boring (too good), but I should probably make something so that instead it's just a valid option and not stupid. Likely the first step will be to make it do 25% damage instead of 50%. Making petrified enemies immune to melee would just make it a damaging copy of frosty, making them immune to spells seems like an okay idea but I don't know that it would actually affect any gameplay decisions... maybe I can just make it increase the victim's physical defense while its on.

Status Effects ---
I'm pretty sure the reason there is so much overlap in the status effects is due to enemy status immunities. They wanted you to be able to paralyze enemy X and Y, but didn't want you to be able to simply use the same multi-targeted spell on every enemy. They gave the various forms of paralysis slight variation for flavor, but ultimately it looks like they primarily intended for them to be paralyzing. Frosty prevents physical damage due to animation issues. I suspect enemies being immune to moogle (which is fundamentally a paralysis) is also due to animation issues (enemy moogle form is like frosty form where it has a very small animation table).

Sword Orb Teleporter ---
Yes, the exit is intended to send you back to the entrance of the second floor. There's a limited number of doors in the game's data (1024 I think?); by sheer luck there was an unused one in Mana Fortress doors (a door from the Dark Lich's room back to the empty Mech Rider III fight room) that I repurposed to send you into the new area, but using up a second door for the exit would've been wasteful. Sending you back to the entrance also provides a penalty for killing the orb droppers too quickly without letting them split / self-replicate.

Harder Final Boss ---
I've been meaning to get that imported (all of Kethinov's hacks actually; it just takes time and I prioritize the ones I personally have interest in using).

Trim Portraits ---
The interface at the bottom of the screen during combat, player faces, player health, recharge %, charge bar, etc. is the HUD (heads-up display). In video game jargon, the HUD is the interface during normal gameplay that is overlaid on the gameplay view. The term comes from aircraft where information is projected onto the cockpit window so the pilot gets information without having to look away from the window (their head stays up, looking out the window, rather than down, looking at gauges, etc.).

The little face picture on the HUD is what this feature affects. Without any status effect, the sprite's hair extends to the corners of the frame their face is in; this fixes that so the corners are rounded like for the boy and girl. It also fixes some status effect pictures that poke out at some of the corners, like moogle and frosty.

MSU-1 ---
Great! Which file naming and organization did you end up using? Did you use the BAT file?

Pretty sure you're the first person to give me any feedback on that. I did the ZSNES MSU-1 stuff for my own benefit (I develop ROM hack stuff using Snes9x Debugger, Mesen-S and BSNES, but play for fun using ZSNES, and wanted to give the remake's music a fair shake, which I think is genuinely decent), so am personally happy with it, but if anyone else found issues with it I'd still want to fix them. Jamming MSU-1 capability into ZSNES was, uhm, fairly tricky, so there are some limitations that likely aren't worth improving, but I'm always interested in feedback (even if I can't or won't act on it).



Mr X
Elemental Weakness ---
Werewolf, Evil Sword, Mimic Box, and Marmablue should all be Luna element enemies, so with Balance\Luna_And_Dryad_Weaknesses On, they should be weak to Dryad.

Buzz Bee, Mushboom, Lullabud, PolterChair, Crawler, Pumpkin Bomb, Chess Knight, Mushgloom, Trap Flower, Metal Crawler, and Nitro Pumpkin should all be Dryad element enemies.

Shade / Lumina ---
While in character stats, the girl doesn't use the Shade slot and the Sprite doesn't use the Lumina slot, in spell data and related spell code, Shade and Lumina are merged into one element. The developers clearly set them up to function as a single elemental that happens to have more art and two diametrically opposed resist values.

Spell Slots ---
If I can sanely use any of the extra spell slots for characters I will, but it doesn't look terribly likely. There are lots of issues preventing it.

Dispel Magic ---
By "magic recoil" you mean the Magic_Recharging delay? That's a great idea.

Saber Buffs ---
I think you're overthinking the ease with which a saber buff can be cleared. It doesn't really matter that you can "cure" a saber buff by changing weapons; the important part of a boss casting a saber on you is that it makes you have to react in any way, even if that reaction is to simply switch weapons. The wrong way is like Trials of Mana where you get super boned if you have a party without saber spells available to overwrite one a boss casts on you; instead of being able to react to the boss's action, you basically can't do anything aside from dying to clear the buff, which is arguably a pretty unacceptable way to be expected to react.

That's my opinion though. What isn't my opinion is why it works the way it does: the end of a saber spell animation blindly overwrites the target's weapon palette but there's no code to save these new color values for reuse, so when you switch weapon, it loads up the new weapon's colors but there's no longer any info on the saber spell's colors (so to avoid an uncolored-by-saber-buff weapon, the developers set it to clear the buff on weapon change). It could be possible to save these colors and not have the buff stripped on weapon change. It would be incredibly impractical to save saber buff status per weapon. I'm not really interested in implementing either though; the way it works already is functional enough for my tastes.

(Evil) Shadow Saber ---
In my brief play-testing so far, I've found use for it by keeping it on the girl. I generally play as the girl, so directly control who she hits to avoid hitting ghost/undead enemies. I never use Evil Gate, even in its More Useful form, so didn't consider it a loss. I do conceptually like the synergy you propose would exist between More Useful Evil Gate and Shadow Saber, but again, a 4th spell for players is a tall order.



zoolgremlin
Shade / Lumina ---
I'm 99% sure the sprite and girl only getting one was an intentional design decision. It required a fair bit of code to have the two merged to be basically one elemental for the sake of data layout. Of all the requests for extended spell data, splitting these two elementals apart so the Sprite and Girl can each get three more spells, is probably the most possible, but don't hold your breath. Would have to track down all of the hardcoded stuff related to these two to get them untangled enough to shift the Lumina data down 6 spell slots, decouple the elemental names from the spell names (the elemental names use up the 8 spell name slots after Lucid Barrier), get the spell menu ring allowing both simultaneously, the magic stats screen (I expended the spell name list but not the spell description list), yeesh, just thinking about everything it would take is making me make a face like: -_-
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: Mr X on September 16, 2019, 05:52:28 pm
Would have been neat if multi quote existed in times as these

There are enough spells to work around, making the current existing ones useful is more than enough, than adding new ones.

I agree that the Evil Saber is best used on the girl, as long as you wont face an undead enemy. The Sprite can restore his own mp via Luna, while the Girl restores her own mp via the Evil Saber.

Regarding the Mana Beast, I remember of all my playthroughs I think only once he casted Dispel on one of my party members, since that day I have never seen it use anything but Wall and Lucent Beam. Weird despite him apparently knowing all these spells, they are either way useless for him as long as he has wall.


Dispel Magic: Yeah, Magic Recharge Delay (lol have to get used to these terms). It gives more depth to dispel.


Agreed on your assessement about Saber buffs. That is my final stance on that too. When an enemy casts a saber magic on you you are supposed to react in any way even if it means as simply as switching weapons. Against the dark lich that may be the fastest solution, you may already hitting him with physical attacks as he casts moon saber on all your party members.

In the end thats the main concept I have for Thanathos himself, he was obsessed with the lifeforce, as the Lich he is hard to kill, and he would want to get your life force which includes HP and MP absorption, which includes said spells that will do that and unorthodox meanings too like casting saber spells on your party.

He doesnt need different elemental spells to damage your party. 1-2 are enough, Evil Gate and Dispel are enough, at best dark force too as another damaging spell but not necessary for him. Not like the team has any weaknesses that he needs to be good at nothing with all these useless spells for "variety" lol.

Now he gained his new possible friend "Evil Saber"
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: Queue on September 16, 2019, 06:04:25 pm
The Mana Beast only casts Dispel Magic if his target has Wall on (preferentially in place of casting Lucent Beam). If not, then it has a 1/3 chance of casting Lucent Beam.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: hmsong on September 16, 2019, 08:43:15 pm
@Queue

I didn't use BAT file.  I just renamed the original rom to som_msu1.smc.

Holy crap, it sounds great.  A bit slow though.

You may want to include where to find the .msu file in the description.  The link in the description only links the .pcm file.  I had to go to the original source (romhacking site) to download the .msu file.

I can sort of see why some people would not use the MSU music though.  The opening title screen music, for example, gets cut off right in the middle.  Not to mention the incredible 1.3GB size.

September 16, 2019, 11:46:44 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
I found this on youtube.  It's about the bugs in the original game.  Most of the things that were mentioned were fixed, but there were some that were not addressed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jsMY7SwLOk
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 17, 2019, 02:01:51 am
Well well!  It looks like Queue is all in favor of everyone talking about all things Secret of Mana!  Soooo... I'll just pipe down and let the discussion roll wherever it goes.   :D

I must first of all apologize for not working on the "mythical" Table Documents yesterday.  First, I spent a lot of time trying to work out what was causing a spell to softlock or soft-reset the game.  It's just the one, haven't figured it out yet.  Then, I got to reading through various materials to see what it would take to change other things in the game, eg. ...


-     Messages on the Magic Skill menu, the ones at the bottom that say unhelpful/misleading stuff.  The hell is "Enemy's energy explodes" supposed to mean?  What about "Makes enemies/you do curious things"?  No matter, I found the data for it.

-     Boss AI, took me a while to sort through which bank those are in.  Didn't experiment with it, though, just read the bits for Wall Face/Doom Wall, Mana Beast, and Mech Rider III.  I think I know how to make kethinov's Herbal Boost patch more compatible with Wall Face/Doom Wall's AI, but I'm probably the only guy that cares about that.  So yeah...  :D

-     How to make base stats like Agility cap at a higher number (lower is not at all helpful, in Vanilla it's already 1).  As well as derived stats like Hit%.


... and so on, and so forth.  By the time I stopped doing that, it was midnight my time, and I was really fatigued.  So... my bad.   :-[

Link to Google Drive Folder:  Secret of Mana Information (Vanilla) (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1fAVv9BMl7N9wPnPzpCkSDkVYp0le1BkU?usp=sharing)



Quote
From myself (cringe):  "If only there had been enough Shade/Lumina spell slots for both casters, <sigh>...
And... "My best guess is that lack of development time, forced Square to abandon putting in 3 more spells for Shade and Lumina."

@Queue  Oh!  I hadn't thought these comments of mine would be taken all that seriously.  It was already complicated for you just to implement [Spell_System_Extensions], sooo... I can't in all good conscience ask you to give PCs more Shade/Lumina spells than what they've got, just for me.  I may like the idea, buuuut... that's almost like programming a new game from scratch!   :o

Secret of Mana is not that complex a game to play, but evidently even simple games need complex code to work.  What I've read so far pretty much proves it, to me at least.

Quote
From your 04:52:32 pm post:  "I'm 99% sure the sprite and girl only getting one was an intentional design decision."

That's very interesting.  I've read about how the whole "Nintendo Playstation cancellation" thing, lead to the downsizing of Secret of Mana's development, from CD to 16Mb cart.  I'm so used to thinking of this game in terms of it being kind of... either "incomplete" or having less content than what was planned.  So I never think of it in terms of what was intentional or not.  I would just say, "I don't know... possibly."    :-\

By the way, there are quite a number of Turbo features I haven't fully tried, including MSU-1.  They all sound pretty grand to me.  But I can't really comment on stuff like the ZSNES patch for MSU-1, since I stopped using ZSNES a couple of weeks ago, in favor of SNES9x v1.57w.  Apologies... I really admire your skills and what you've done with this project, even if I don't discuss every aspect.



Don't worry, I can still hear the spell bug and the tables calling me back.  As Danger Dolan would say, "That's it for this countdown, and avagoodone!"   :laugh:

@Queue  EDIT:  Forgot to mention I like the Remake too, I've heard a lot of criticism of it, not all of it is fully justified.  The updated soundtrack is enjoyable to me, for the most part.    8)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: Mr X on September 17, 2019, 04:32:40 am
Oh yeah, can confirm the Wall Bosses seem to be affected by the herbal boost patch, just fought one of them and it casted herbal boost on the dead eye!
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 17, 2019, 05:41:12 am
@Mr. X  Quite a strange thing, isn't it?  I believe it's because Wall Face/Doom Wall's AI was not changed to load the correct spell pointer, to maintain its Vanilla behaviour.  Since the one that used to be for Revivifier now points to the function for Herbal Boost (the artist formerly known as Moon Energy), what I think needs to happen is to exchange the pointer for the one that used to be for Moon Energy.  If you know how to use a hex editor, I can probably tell you which address and offset contains the value to be changed, if you would like...?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: Mr X on September 17, 2019, 06:06:47 am
Another bug, you can get two bow orbs from the chest in the fire palace, chest doesn't disappear after getting the first orb, instead closes then you can open it again for another bow orb.

zoolgremlin I still need s lot of practice to use the hex editor so probably not for that yet.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 17, 2019, 06:31:44 am
@Mr. X  Okay, no worries.   :)

About the Bow Orbs, forgive me for asking but... are you sure that you didn't miss an earlier one?  Orb Chests are actually programmed to respawn if you have less than the maximum allowed, it depends on the value of an Event Control Flag that increments at various points of the game.  The last increment is applied by the cutscene at the end of Pure Land.  Even Vanilla had that feature.  Can't remember if I ever saw it happen, back when I played on real hardware, but the Internet soon put me straight about the matter.   :D

Since you mention the Fire Palace, I assume you're using kethinov's Weapon_Progression patch?  If you are, that not only puts more Orb Chests in the game world, it also redefines the value of that EC Flag.  That makes the extra Chests spawn if you did get all the previous ones available.  If he hadn't done that, the new Chest events would not have worked after patching the game.

Hope you have a good one.  Cheers!
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: Mr X on September 17, 2019, 06:44:21 am
Mr. X  Okay, no worries.   :)

About the Bow Orbs, forgive me for asking but... are you sure that you didn't miss an earlier one?  Orb Chests are actually programmed to respawn if you have less than the maximum allowed, it depends on the value of an Event Control Flag that increments at various points of the game.  The last increment is applied by the cutscene at the end of Pure Land.  Even Vanilla had that feature.  Can't remember if I ever saw it happen, back when I played on real hardware, but the Internet soon put me straight about the matter.   :D

Since you mention the Fire Palace, I assume you're using kethinov's Weapon_Progression patch?  If you are, that not only puts more Orb Chests in the game world, it also redefines the value of that EC Flag.  That makes the extra Chests spawn if you did get all the previous ones available.  If he hadn't done that, the new Chest events would not have worked after patching the game.

Hope you have a good one.  Cheers!

I have 3/3 Bow Orbs, I still havent fought Boreal face. I just went ahead to pick that orb for lolz, before going to the ice country, I did that before too and it didnt happen, and I am using the level 9 weapon progession balance patch. Why didn't that happen previously but now it does happen? It may not necessary be a bug but still weird a bit.

September 17, 2019, 06:53:10 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Yup, that was just because I didnt face boreal face first, but still previously I got the orb before that even happened, there was no way you would miss it either way because you still need to get salamando to proceed further in the fire palace anyway.

Previously it didn't happen, that much I can confirm.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 17, 2019, 06:57:13 am
@Mr. X  Okay, so you are using Weapon_Progression.  I just checked the documentation for kethinov's patch, here's the new order of Bow Orbs that it puts into the game:


Quote
kethinov:

"Bow upgrades:
1. Wall Face in Pandora.
2. Jabberwocky in Water Palace.
3. Boreal Face in Ice Country.
4. Fire Palace chest. (New! Monster converted.)
5. Northtown Ruins chest.
6. Gorgon Bull in Gold Tower.
7. Kettle Kin in Grand Palace.
8. Snow Dragon in Pure Land."

Hmmm... since the first Orb Chest for the Bow is the Fire Palace one, missing Boreal Face to get that Chest means you were one Orb short of what the game was expecting.  Did you happen to glitch your way to the Chest?  By going up the slope with charge attacks or the glove's straight punch, I mean...
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: Mr X on September 17, 2019, 07:50:21 am
Mr. X  Okay, so you are using Weapon_Progression.  I just checked the documentation for kethinov's patch, here's the new order of Bow Orbs that it puts into the game:


Hmmm... since the first Orb Chest for the Bow is the Fire Palace one, missing Boreal Face to get that Chest means you were one Orb short of what the game was expecting.  Did you happen to glitch your way to the Chest?  By going up the slope with charge attacks or the glove's straight punch, I mean...

Yup I went up the slope using the glove. I did that previously before too. Got the bow orb there then went for the ice country, I didnt get a second drop. Until now.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 17, 2019, 08:17:35 am
@Mr. X  Ah, I understand.  By skipping the Boreal Face, you were one Orb short of what the Chest was expecting.  It's coded to keep giving you Bow orbs until you have 4, meaning it should say 3/5 on the Weapon Skill screen.  Or something_else/5, depending on how many times you forged the Bow up to that point.

All Orb chests in the game work the same way.  It's a feature of the game...

When you first get a weapon, it's level is 1, not 0.  So it'll say 1/1 in the menu.  As you get Orbs, the number after the slash-> / increments, up to a maximum of 9.  So... weapon starts at 1, you get enough Orbs to reach 9, meaning each weapon needs 8 Orbs to reach its highest form (top axe, top boomerang, etc.). Do you... follow?   :-[
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: hmsong on September 17, 2019, 10:44:36 am
@Queue

My stomach is feeling much better, so I decided to use your new Spell Data feature to edit the spells.  And let me say...

Thank you so much for making things SO MUCH easier to edit the spells.  Thanks to you, I was able to make Lucent Beam/Dark Force have Acc/Eva down.  In addition, I was able to make Lunar Magic to All Stat Down instead of some random effects.

My next task (I think I already told you this):  Switch, change colors, and edit names of the spells.  I took a look at Herbal Boost patch... and I'm confused.  I can change the name of Herbal Boost, but I have no idea how to change the names of other spells.  Sigh...

So once again, I must ask you for help.  I'm thinking of doing:
- Fire Bouquet (Salamnder) --> Frost Burn (Undine) -- Same graphic as Fire Bouquet, but blue color.  And causes Frost (another underused SE, which admittedly is not-useful SE in the game, since you can't follow up with melee).
- Remedy (Undine) --> Remedy (Salamander) -- Just different color, for now.

I'm thinking of many different ideas (gotta play around with it), but one step at a time.  Besides, if I can do this, I can do the rest (probably).

I can probably change the graphic (err, copy/paste) using:
Code: [Select]
{10: Fire Bouquet}
D0/2EA8: 8900 BE6A 0000 2D8F 8900 BE6A 0000 2D8F {Gfx}Low
D0/2EB8: 8900 D46A 0000 2D8F 8900 D46A 0000 2D8F {Gfx}Mid
D0/2EC8: 890E D46A 0000 558F 890E D46A 0000 558F {Gfx}High
But changing colors, or modifying names... I honestly don't know.

I'm also taking a look at the codes for Shadow Saber (which is called Evil Saber, for some reason), but I'm still just as lost.  I just suck at recognizing things, don't I...
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 17, 2019, 12:07:27 pm
@hmsong  I read your comments about stomach problems, sorry to hear you had to deal with that.   :(

I should've said something way earlier, but glad to hear that you're feeling better.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: Mr X on September 17, 2019, 02:28:33 pm
Blaze Barrier sure came in handy a lot during my playthrough so far, I abused it especially during some areas like the fire palace, ice continent, and pure land, due to the limited equipment it prevents me using the best equipment for all characters. Blaze Barrier all day.

 Sure you still take damage from the enemies but you immobilize them for some time while draining their hp.

And I used the Evil Saber a lot also so far. Used the saber the boss is weak against on the Hero -- main physical attacker, Evil Saber on the Girl - unless the boss was an undead type. Kinda felt badfor some of them, I drained their mp sometimes way too fast haha. More useful than I initially thought for sure.

I like it.

hmsong get well soon bro.

What's your take on the herbal boost patch?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: hmsong on September 17, 2019, 06:42:28 pm
@zoolgremlin, @Mr X

Thank you.

Also, I bet Beast Zombies in the Mana Fortress (or Grand Palance) are annoying as hell.  You can't touch them, once they activate the Blaze Barrier (you'd lose almost half of your life).

As for Herbal Boost, I like it.  Moon Energy is just too powerful, so it makes sense that it's the last element you get in the game (it also prevents Early Luna from being too OP).  Having said that, I never liked Revive.  I would prefer if Revive (on Luna's side) was just gotten rid of, and instead be replaced with something else.  Something more useful.  Such as "Turn Undead" -- does 999 damage (or 100PWR) ONLY to undead/ghost/morph normal monsters (so you can't use it against Dark Lich).  It's not not very useful if it were just undead/ghost, because there aren't any tough undead/ghost normal enemies (toughest undead monsters is that pink Hound enemy, and the toughest ghost monster is Ghost from Pure Land).  It might be useful against Morph monsters, since those are freaking annoying, what with them always replicating.  I thought about making it powerful against Metallic monsters, but that's way too many.

September 17, 2019, 08:20:33 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Food-for-thought idea:

Make it so that Mimic enemy will ALWAYS drop a treasure chest.  Also, make it so Change Form spell has a possibility of transforming the enemy into Mimic (or only Mimic).  That way, people will have VERY strong incentive of using Change Form spells on enemies (in vanilla, changed-enemies drop the original form's treasure chest).

I don't even know if it's possible to make a certain enemy always drop a chest.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: Mr X on September 18, 2019, 01:09:46 am
@zoolgremlin, @Mr X

Thank you.

Also, I bet Beast Zombies in the Mana Fortress (or Grand Palance) are annoying as hell.  You can't touch them, once they activate the Blaze Barrier (you'd lose almost half of your life).

As for Herbal Boost, I like it.  Moon Energy is just too powerful, so it makes sense that it's the last element you get in the game (it also prevents Early Luna from being too OP).  Having said that, I never liked Revive.  I would prefer if Revive (on Luna's side) was just gotten rid of, and instead be replaced with something else.  Something more useful.

September 17, 2019, 08:20:33 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Food-for-thought idea:

Make it so that Mimic enemy will ALWAYS drop a treasure chest.  Also, make it so Change Form spell has a possibility of transforming the enemy into Mimic (or only Mimic).  That way, people will have VERY strong incentive of using Change Form spells on enemies (in vanilla, changed-enemies drop the original form's treasure chest).

I don't even know if it's possible to make a certain enemy always drop a chest.

Nah the those Beast Wolves in the Mana fortress cast blaze wall on your party, they dont cast blaze barrier. Tho in the future I expect some enemy or boss be able to do that. Hell Phoenix for example only two spells: Blaze Wall and Blaze Barrier. Fits his name, you can't sinply harm him with physical attacka like that, without dispel.

Yeah the Herbal Boost patch is nice, but Iwont mind the revifier spell tho. All it needs is the fix so that the wall bosses will cast revifier instead of herbal boost with that patch.

In case you are low on money or want to save it for better equioment, mp absorb and revifier could help you mid game if you apply the early luna patch, which I do while oreventing the all powerful moon energy from getting too early. Then once you get Evil Saber even better then the girl will have a mean to restore mp too.

That sounds like a nice idea regarding the mimic box transformation. Tho even without that enemy, in case you really want to farm the weapon orbs in mana fortress, transform became still useful in that regard as to get the final sword orb the only mean to beat that hidden enemy is to use the transform spell.

But I wont mind either way.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: hmsong on September 18, 2019, 01:24:23 am
Does anyone know what vanilla Evil Gate actually does?  I heard that it does 50% of current HP, but usually, it usually does ~33% damage.  At the same time, I've seen it kill enemies too (not in one shot, of course).  If it did 50% of current HP, then it should never kill anything, unless the enemy has 1 HP left.  I don't get how it exactly works.

September 18, 2019, 01:39:50 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
@Mr X

Quote
That sounds like a nice idea regarding the mimic box transformation. Tho even without that enemy, in case you really want to farm the weapon orbs in mana fortress, transform became still useful in that regard as to get the final sword orb the only mean to beat that hidden enemy is to use the transform spell.

Yes, against that specific enemy, but I was thinking against most enemies.  Typically, you'd end up doing direct spell damage, rather than have them transform.  A lot faster, Esp since Popoi has so many spell options.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: Mr X on September 18, 2019, 02:16:46 am
Does anyone know what vanilla Evil Gate actually does?  I heard that it does 50% of current HP, but usually, it usually does ~33% damage.  At the same time, I've seen it kill enemies too (not in one shot, of course).  If it did 50% of current HP, then it should never kill anything, unless the enemy has 1 HP left.  I don't get how it exactly works.

September 18, 2019, 01:39:50 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
@Mr X

Yes, against that specific enemy, but I was thinking against most enemies.  Typically, you'd end up doing direct spell damage, rather than have them transform.  A lot faster, Esp since Popoi has so many spell options.

Yup evil gate does damage 50% of current hp, worked on anything but bosses. Of course it never killed any enemy outright unless they had 1 hp left.


I would still refrain from the transform spell always turning an enemy into a mimic box, nut hat that monster be included so that an enemy can be transformed into a mimic box too through some luck, and have them always drop a chest, reminds me of sd3. But how possible that is to implement in SoM I have no idea.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 18, 2019, 02:20:38 am
@hmsong  In Vanilla, Evil Gate uses a special function to calculate percentile damage like this:

IF <SpellTarget> is Flagged as a Boss, SpellDamage = 1
ELSE SpellDamage = (CurrHP + MaxHP) / 2 / (10-ShadeLevel)

Magic Defence and Magic Block% does not factor into the damage formula, nor does any other factor other than what is shown above.

Damage is capped at 999, as with other damaging spells.  Since it only does 1 against bosses, it will never get close to hitting that cap... so that's alrighty then!   :crazy:

Hope that helps...
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: hmsong on September 18, 2019, 02:26:40 am
@Mr X

Yeah, always having it transform to Mimic Box would be weird.  I think vanilla Change Form can change to 8 of beginning enemies (Rabite, Molebear, Mushboom, Goblin, Green Drop, Lullabud, Water Thug, and Pumpkin Bomb).  Mimic Box can perhaps replace one of them.  But of course, this would only matter if Mimic Box always dropped a treasure chest.

@zoolgremlin

Wow.  Thank you.  Although I don't use Evil Gate (even after the "upgrade", I don't use it due to absurd MP cost), it's still very nice to know.  That thing really sucks.  In vanilla, the max damage it can do is 575, which is against Fiend Head (who has 1150 HP).  That is completely retarded.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: Mr X on September 18, 2019, 02:54:36 am
That is what mp absorb spell is for. You can do up to 999 damage, sure costs a lot of mp, use mp absorb then. Minimum a spell that can do that much damage on a boss should cost a lot, 9 mp minimum imo.

In original tho of course it's a dumb spell, alongside some luna spells too.

Still like the Evil Saber more over the Evil Gate, keeping the evil gate as an additional enemy/boss spell only.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: hmsong on September 18, 2019, 08:40:07 pm
I was experimenting with "Dead Status" spell.  It was very interesting.  It made the enemy into a dead sprite (when your character dies, he becomes a ghost, and the same applied to the monster).  Their ghosts were around, and they were trying to attack you, but your characters didnt' react.  You can't even target their ghosts.  Of course, they don't yield exp or anything, and when you leave the screen, they respawn.

Problems: The ghosts can still hurt you with their magic (assuming they have magic).  Also, it one-shots any boss.

Hmm.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: Queue on September 18, 2019, 09:01:55 pm
hmsong, neat video, wish I had seen it like 8 months ago; I think everything in it (that's actually a bug) I have already fixed, but if there are any you think I've overlooked, feel free to point them out.

If it's not obvious from Herbal Boost, Shadow Saber, etc. changing spell names and graphics ranges from complicated to extremely complicated.

How to change colors of a spell varies based on the animations the spell uses; if you're lucky, the first byte per row of spell data for graphics controls the palette, but many spell animations ignore or only partially use that value and have palette numbers hardcoded in their animations. There's no easy way for me to streamline this in SSE; you have to look at the spell data to see which animations it uses, go look those animations up in bank 0x11 which there's almost no documentation for, and edit them there.

Changing names gets at least a little complicated due to Turbo supporting vanilla, Proper-caser and Relocalized. I was able to streamline Proper-caser integration (e.g. ^F i^ r^ e^ b^ a^ l^ l^ will automatically handle Proper/UPPER case to match Proper-caser being On/Off), but Relocalized moved around a bunch of text, so you can't just blindly overwrite the vanilla spell names (which would also have space limits of vanilla name length or less).

Evil Saber was the prototype name and I forgot to change the text to the Shadow Saber name I'd settled on. It's updated for the next version.

There's a list of which enemies Change Form results in, which should be trivial to change, at $C8E5F3 (0x08E5F3 as a file offset).
0x00 Rabite
0x02 Mushboom
0x04 Lullabud
0x06 Kid Goblin
0x08 Green Drop
0x0C Water Thug
0x16 Pebbler
0x17 Pumpkin Bomb

Enemies do have individual chest drop chance, but I don't know if Change Form propagates the new monster's drop chance onto the old. If so, setting the Mimic's to max would work, if not, requires a code change. I don't recall if the max value results in 100% chest rate or not.

Mimic drop table entry at $D03B31 (0x103B31), where the first byte, 0x04, should be drop chance, though I'm not positive how this value is used. Setting it to 0xFF should make for an obvious result though.



zoolgremlin, you basically just answered a bunch of questions so I didn't have to. Thanks. =)

Reading your posts, I don't think I saw anything to respond to, but if I overlooked a question, etc. call me on it.



Mr X, Wall bosses using Revivifier is fixed for next version.

While zoolgremlin covered the cause of why you'd get multiple weapon orb chests, I don't have a good answer as to why you specifically saw it there when you're sure it didn't happen at that chest before. I don't think the weapon orb failsafe can trigger when it shouldn't, and it definitely can't fail to work (in a worst case scenario, if you opened the chest and it vanished even when you're one orb short, leaving and re-entering the room would respawn it).

The game doesn't save whether or not you opened a specific weapon orb chest: the weapon orb chests are NPCs whose visibility is tied to the number of weapon orbs you have for the orb type they provide. If they're visible you can interact with them (like talking to a person in town), and if you interact with them, you get 1 weapon orb, which increments the value it uses to decide if its visible or not.

Glad to hear Blaze Barrier and Shadow Saber work in real world testing (and that you seem to be enjoying them!).

The next update will have Engulf damage reduced a bit: at least in my testing, it was proving deadlier than I'd intended (not that being lit on fire wouldn't be deadly, but I'm focused on what's good for gameplay).

Shadow Saber's mana drain amount was scaling up to much higher amounts at high level Shade than I'd intended. I didn't realize exactly what the Saber buff logic was before implementing it, but here's a breakdown:
- remove old saber buff
- set weapon element
- set weapon status effect (if any)
- zero both Mana Magic timers
- saber hit count = (((spell_level / target_count) + 1) * 4)
- saber level = (spell_level / target_count)

I was basing the mana drain on the spell level ((spell_level + 1) / 2, round up), and forgot that at level 8, a saber gets 36 hits. 36 * 5 = 180 mana drain. o_O

Though, that's not quite right: due to a design flaw in the code, saber spells fade on their final hit before applying their effects, so 35 * 5, which is still too much. At level 0 it was supposed to be 4 * 1 = 4 (1 mana less than it costs to cast) but due to that flaw it was only giving 3.

Anyway, fixing that flaw (in the Bug_Fixes section), then applying a new mana draining rule set, puts the amount drained per hit the same, but instead the amount drained is subtracted from the saber hit count. So the total mana drained per saber buff is roughly:
level 0 = 04 in 4 hits (1 per hit)
level 1 = 08 in 8 hits (1 per hit)
level 2 = 12 in 6 hits (2 per hit)
level 3 = 16 in 8 hits (2 per hit)
level 4 = 20 in 7 hits (3 per hit) (21 due to rounding)
level 5 = 24 in 8 hits (3 per hit)
level 6 = 28 in 7 hits (4 per hit)
level 7 = 32 in 8 hits (4 per hit)
level 8 = 36 in 8 hits (5 per hit) (40 due to rounding)
which should be much more reasonable. Wasted or partial drains (due to victim's mana being less than the drain amount) will disrupt those numbers a little. The buff won't last through as many hits, but the mana returned should still feel good on a per-hit basis. At low level, multi-target casting it on the group will likely be the valuable choice, while once Shade is leveled up, single-target casting will be what makes sense (since the multi-target penalty is pretty steep).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 18, 2019, 11:04:04 pm
@hmsong  Regarding the Dead status (0x8000), I have also seen the same thing.  There's code in the game that's designed to prevent anything from either doing damage or recovering HP/MP if they're flagged as Dead.  I can't remember exactly where the code is, but I think it's in Bank 0x00.  Was looking at it yesterday among other things, but then put it aside for later.

As for the Evil Gate thing, it's one of what I like to call "The Big Three" when it comes to useless spells in Vanilla.  The other two being Speed Down and Lunar Magic (Change Form is actually better than I thought, but I always forget to use it).  Great animations and sound effects, but zero use in combat unless you're using the Chain-Spell Exploit to hold a monster in place.

Which by the way, I wouldn't recommend to anybody.  Except for Spell Level-raising in Vanilla, and doing a speedrun.  The latter is of no interest to me, but to each his own...  :)

@Queue  Regarding the answering of other members' questions, no worries!  I didn't put in any questions of my own, since I took a break from writing up tables on Google Docs to study how the ZPS syntax works.  I've had a lot of success doing experimental hex-edits, tweaking things here and there to see what would happen.  That worked pretty well.  But I hadn't yet tried writing a tweak into the ZPS file itself.  Until last night.

I know I'm not supposed to quote large amounts of stuff, but this one's fairly short, soooo... it might be okay.   ;D

Quote
'alter base & derived-stat descriptions on Status Menu Screen
@OFF $C76764
TEXT _ _
@OFF $C76771
TEXT _ _
@OFF $C77A3C
TEXT ^E n d u r a n c e _   'Synonymous with Fortitude, Timbo's version in Reloc.
@OFF $C77A46
TEXT ^W i l l p o w e r _   'Because Intelligence doesn't work that way, except in crappy swords-and-sorcery fiction.  Okay?  -_-
@OFF $C77A50
TEXT ^S p i r i t _ _ _ _   'Neither does Wisdom, come to think of it.  Spirit allows you to withstand magic without being crippled (as much), analogous to
                            'Endurance with physicals.  My 2 cents.  Wait!  Make that 1 cent.  :D
@OFF $C77A65
TEXT ^H i t % _ _ _ _ _ _   'No space between Hit and %, unnecessary.
@OFF $C77A6F
TEXT ^D e f e n c e _ _ _   'Non-American English version of Defense, probably out-of-date now.  Hehe... '^~^
@OFF $C77A79
TEXT ^E v a d e % _ _ _ _   'No space between Evade and %, also not needed.
@OFF $C77A83
TEXT ^M a g . _ ^D e f . _  'Don't really need Magic fully spelled-out.  It's called "overkill".  -~-

I added that to the Tangled_Up_Bugfix section as an experiment, and to my amazement it worked.  Had no luck adding it in its own section, so obviously I'm not a ROMhacker or ZPS whiz kid, but that at least was a step forward for me.  You're all welcome to use this if you like, it was just a little tweak to the Status menu screen.  Timbo's Relocalized already does something similiar, so that's another option...   :D

As Mr. X pointed out, Blaze Barrier and Shadow Saber work as intended.  I noticed an odd bug with Lunar Magic when using [Spell_System_Extensions], but it's very hard to explain.  Had to try casting it over and over to see everything that could happen, since LM has the whole "1 out of 8 random magic effects" bull**** going on.

I believe you wanted to know if all Vanilla behaviour for spells was preserved in your latest release.  But I'll come back for the full explanation a bit later... going to have another look at the bug to remind myself.  Lunar Magic seems to be the only spell affected by this, so it's not that concerning.  Back soon...  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: hmsong on September 19, 2019, 01:50:29 am
@Queue

I see.  It's too bad that I can't just move around the spells.  Sigh.  I guess I'll have to experiment to see.  I'm not sure what it is that I can do.  Oh boy.

Thank you for telling me the monster codes for those 8 monsters (for the Change Form), and where to change things.  Any idea what the codes are for other monsters?  I'd love to know, so I can replace them for the Change Form.  I can have fun with that.

You said, "Mimic drop table entry at $D03B31 (0x103B31)".  Thank you.  Could you post all drop percentage codes for all monsters?  I'd love to try to manipulate drop percentage, but I need to test it on a monster that's easy to find/spawn (most likely Rabite).  It's a bit difficult to try that on Mimic, since he's difficult to find (I have to find a Shapeshifter, and wait around until he spawns a Mimic).

What do you think about my idea about changing Revive spell to Turn Undead?  It does 999 damage (or whatever HP the original Revive restores) on undead/ghost.  Same animation as Revive.  Not exactly the most useful spell, but more useful than Revive, I think.  Of course, you should leave Wall Face with the NPC Revive (as you did with Blaze Wall and Evil Gate).  It can work against Dark Lich, so... questionable.  Of course, using Primm's precious MP on Dark Lich isn't the best idea (esp if you applied Harder Final Boss patch), since her only way to obtain MP is through Faerie Walnut/Coconut (even Shadow Saber won't work, since Dark Lich reverses MP absorb, and Mana Beast is immune to anything that's not Mana Magic).

As for the bugs on that video that wasn't implemented in your package... I think you didn't do these, but maybe I'm wrong (they're all very minor).
1. Disappearing Rudolf (5:08)
2. Revisit Potos (6:08)
3. Revisit Moon Palace dark room (6:58)
4. Infinite money (8:28)

Btw, when I used the original Relocalized patch, I noticed that the cannon travel near Potos still offers Gaia Navel when you get access to Upper Land (in vanilla, Gaia Navel gets replaced with Upper Land).  Can you can make it so that it offers both? (along with Water Temple route)  Or maybe I didn't apply something from your patch?

Either that, or make the Goblin Village have access to Gaia Navel overland (ex: left exit for Gaia Navel, and right exit for the original exit).  That way, players can have sort of shortcut from/to Gaia Navel.  It's not like you have access to Goblin Village before having access to Gaia Navel anyways, so it shouldn't mess with the plot line.  And it would make sense, since Gaia Navel cave has lots of goblins.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 19, 2019, 02:47:29 am
@hmsong  I can answer the question about monster ID codes for the Change Form table, at least.  Here's a Link:

#####Monster and Boss Data Table##### (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LxBPQYc3hgIg10bMg-7wc3Fgzgnfftw9UxOgYVWIyAk/edit?usp=sharing)



In each section of the table, there's a legend that shows the ID number for each monster in sequence (in hex, so 0x00, 0x01, etc.).  I haven't entered the ones for bosses yet, as I'm not sure they have IDs that are checked by the system.  By the way, if you enter the values for Shadow X1/X2/X3, they don't do anything.  EDIT:  Boss IDs added, they do have them.  So bugger me for failing to recognize that...  :-[

Hope that helps... there will be more tables in the Drive folder I made, at some later date.

As for the infinite money cheat, I'm pretty sure that's fixed by [No_Blats_To_Sell], in the BugFixes section of the ZPS.  The other weird stuff doesn't really harm anything, so I'm not sure why the Remake team saw it fit to change those...  :huh:

Nor would leaving them in make the Remake version any worse.  I just... don't understand what Square Enix is ever thinking.  And I mean precisely that.  EVER...

Best not to think about it, unless you find it hilarious.  I switch back and forth between laughing out loud, and ranting out loud.  Amused and angry, in other words.   ::)



Yes, I have the Remake on Steam.    :laugh:

That's very interesting, what you say about the original Relocalized patch.  I never used it so didn't know about that.  (EDIT:  Well actually, I did, but I didn't explore it in depth, so didn't know much about it.  Maybe later...)

Your idea about the Goblin Village is quite intriguing, I must say.

EDIT:  @Queue  Forgot to mention I'm loving that Shadow Saber icon.   :woot!:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: hmsong on September 19, 2019, 03:13:24 am
@zoolgremlin

Thank you for that table.  I will use it well.  Really well.

It doesn't list the percentage of monster drop though (well, you already insinuated that).  Having said that, I can probably make an educated guess, thanks to your table and Queue's "Mimic drop table entry at $D03B31 (0x103B31)".  So thank you.

Thank you for your positive response to my Goblin Village idea.  I shall continue to post my ideas here.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 19, 2019, 03:51:16 am
@hmsong  I did?  Hmmm, didn't mean to do that.   :-[

I'm gonna get to writing it up eventually, but just quickly:  Yes, the monster drop table is in a different section of the ROM.  I just checked and the Mimic's drop table entry is indeed at the address Queue specified.  If you'd like to examine it closer, the full table goes from:  $D03A50 (0x103A50) to $D03BF3 (0x103BF3).  Only monsters have drop values.  Bosses, the Crystal Orb, and the Treasure Chest placeholder do not.  The last five values are the ones for Master Ninja.

Happy digging!   :D
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: Mr X on September 19, 2019, 04:04:26 am
The shadow saber had the reverse effect on the thunder gigas I forgot to point that out. I guess the Gigas boss series are of the undead type?

September 19, 2019, 04:41:33 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
And in regards to Shadow Saber and Blaze nerf yeah I think I would nerf them. I drained the mp too fast of some bosses. I wonder if it's possible to break their mp cap past 99 could be another solution.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: hmsong on September 19, 2019, 04:42:22 am
@zoolgremlin

Wait, you have a list for the drop percentage code for all monsters?  If so, then could you please make a list of that?  That would be wonderful.


@Mr X

I think they're Ghost type.  Except that you can hit them with melee attacks.


@Queue

It seems that Gas types (like the cloud enemies like Dark Funk) also reverse HP/MP.  It's probably because Gas and Ghost have the same "type".  Perhaps you should put that in the description for the HP/MP reverse patch.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 19, 2019, 05:00:31 am
@hmsong  Okay, I'll let you know when I've finished writing up the list.  Cheers!

Link to all the tables I've documented so far:  Secret of Mana Information (Vanilla) (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1fAVv9BMl7N9wPnPzpCkSDkVYp0le1BkU?usp=sharing).   ;)

Back shortly...

September 19, 2019, 05:27:51 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Quote
Mr. X:  And in regards to Shadow Saber and Blaze nerf yeah I think I would nerf them. I drained the mp too fast of some bosses. I wonder if it's possible to break their mp cap past 99 could be another solution.

The game uses 8-bit addresses for MP values, both for characters and for monsters/bosses.  The maximum MP you can technically have, therefore, is 255.  Only problem with that though, is this:

If you cast Analyzer on a monster or have it bounce onto a character, currMP/maxMP, as well as currHP/maxHP, is part of the information that gets displayed in a Message Event, at the top of the screen.  If the target's current or maximum HP/MP is past a certain value, they won't display correctly in that Message Event.  I don't know what the cutoff point is for that, but I intend to find out.  If I can fix it, I'm going to.  Because I don't like arbitrary code like that.  :D

I definitely like the idea of monsters having a cap of more than 9990HP and 99MP when fighting them.  Not sure how many others do.  Hope that helps, a little.  :)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: hmsong on September 19, 2019, 05:31:46 am
@zoolgremlin

In [Harder Final Boss] patch, the final bosses had far more than 9999 HP.  Dark Lich had 44444 HP, and Mana Beast had 65535 HP.  I don't know about MP, but Mana Beast seemed like it had infinite MP (but perhaps it had 255).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 19, 2019, 05:45:47 am
@hmsong  If I'm not mistaken, the Mana Beast and the two Slime bosses technically have infinite MP.  Only reason for that is, there's code in the battle system to keep restoring their MP to full at regular intervals, or keep it locked at 99.  So oddly enough, you can MP-drain them infinitely for more firepower.  Weeeeell... not with the Mana Beast, though.  It has 999 Mag. Def., and 99 MagicBlock%, so you'll get 1MP per use of Magic Absorb, and it costs 1MP.  Cancels out the piddling 1 you just Absorbed.  True story, that.  Apparently...?!   :laugh:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: hmsong on September 19, 2019, 06:04:20 am
@zoolgremlin

I remember doing 0 damage to Mana beast with my melee.  Not 1 damage, but actually 0 damage.

Also, 99 M.Eva?  Is there even a point?  You can't evade magic, right?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 19, 2019, 06:39:02 am
@hmsong  No, no you can't.  But, as weird as this sounds, Evade% and MagicEvade% are still used as part of the damage calculation for weapon attacks and spells, respectively.  There's a (EDIT) very convoluted long algorithm, that gets run every time an attack occurs on screen that hits someone.  Well, two actually.  One for physicals, one for spells.  The difference between the two is that a physical attack can be reduced to 0 damage, if your Evade% AND Defence is high enough.  Regrs stated, but I haven't quite confirmed, that reducing AttackPower to 0 is what a "miss" is.  With spells, the SpellPower can never fall below 1, regardless of MagicEvade%, Mag. Def., and/or any other factors involved.

You can test this out with a cheat code if you like.  Say you're at the end of the game, and you have a character with the best helmet, armor and accessory he/she can equip.  That character's Mag. Def. will be 500+, right?  Well, try setting a cheat code like so:

- For the Boy:     7EE1A700
- For the Girl:    7EE3A700
- For the Sprite:  7EE5A700


Then, go to a battle map like the Mana Fortress or Pure Land, and wait until that character, or those characters, get/s hit with a damaging spell.  You may be surprised.  Make sure they're wearing their best gear, or the second-best gear from Neko, while you have the cheat codes active.

I can't blame anyone for not knowing that Magic "Evade%" (more like Magic Block%) exists in the game.  Not only is the fan name for it a bit misleading, it's also a hidden stat.  The Status Menu Screen which ought to TELL you this kinda stuff, has no entry for it, unlike Evade% (or possibly "Evade%").  It's tough to work out what the programmer's reasoning for this algorithm was, exactly.  I'll come back to it later, if anyone's interested.

If you find yourself confused by the result, so was I back in the day.   :D

EDIT:  Sorry.  I think the MP-drain of Shadow Saber works differently.  Will have to check what Queue said about it, my bad.   :-[



UPDATE FOR HMSONG:
Here's the Link for the Drop Table you asked for.  A quick note, though:  The table still needs formatting, but the data is all there from the Vanilla ROM.   ;)

*****Monster Treasure Drop Data Table***** (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hTMOzlSbEZgP_KvM-YGT-ZmTclhG3vwqUrtvQ_iDByM/edit?usp=sharing)



UPDATE FOR QUEUE:
Okay, this is gonna be quite the description of a bug... <whew!>

So, as we all know, Lunar Magic can have 1 of 8 effects, chosen at random.

- <Enemy/party HP recovered!>  All enemies on-screen and all characters restored to full HP.  That one's not so bad...
- <Raring to go!>  <TargetName>'s <Attack>&<Hit>&<Evade>&<Defence> Up!  Oh, you mean that Master Ninja I was fighting just got stronger, faster AND tougher!?  Thanks a lot, Loony Luna!
- <Burned out!>  <TargetName>'s <Attack>&<Hit>&<Evade>&<Defence> Down!  Take that, Rabite scourge!  Oh wait, it was already weak to start with!  Ah well...
- <All are confused!>  All enemies on-screen and all party members inflicted with Confuse... gre-eaaat!  No spells for us, then!
- <Kupi ku po po!?>  All party members inflicted with Moogle.  Also tries to Moogle enemies, but can't because all monsters/bosses are immune.  Sure fine design Square, you dopefishes!
- <World's bigger?!>  All party members inflicted with Pygmy.  Does not try to afflict the enemies... if it did, they'd always be immune anyway.  Maybe Sailor Moon will come along, and put us in her dollhouse.  Jeez...! <forehead slap>
- <Enemy wimps out!>  All enemies on-screen inflicted with Transform.  That's more like it!
- <Knocked senseless!>  All enemies on-screen and all party members inflicted with Sleep.  It's like fairy dust... smells like Rainbow Dash's farts, makes everything dead silent for 6 seconds!  I could use a nap... noooot.


Now, I patched a ROM with the latest version of the ZPS file, so the 150919 one.  In one case, I patched it without [Spell_System_Extensions] enabled, and from what I could tell, all Vanilla spells including Lunar Magic, were not bugged in any way.  They did what they were supposed to.  So that's no worry.

In the other case, I patched it with [Spell_System_Extensions] enabled, and here's where the strangeness kicked in.  The new spells like Shadow Saber and Blaze Barrier, and the altered ones like Speed Down with the Inflict Tangle, HitDwn and EvaDwn effect, for example, worked as intended.  The only one that didn't... was my good friend, Looney Toony Magic!

So here's a list of effects I noticed, after casting it over and over, and reloading if anything went seriously wrong:

-  Got "Enemy/party HP recovered!" message, spell restored HP the way it should.  So, not bugged.  Yay!
-  Got "Burned out!" message, but all enemy targets would receive <stat1/2/3/4> UP.  Instead of DOWN.  Curious, but it's not as though Mr. Eye Spy would get much mileage outta that.  Put that on Master Kung-fu Werewolf, now we're in the money!
-  Got "Kupi ku po po!?" message, but all enemy targets would receive <stat1/2/3/4> DOWN.  Instead of the party getting Moogled.  Curiouser and curiouser...
-  Got "Enemy wimps out!" message, but all enemies on-screen and all party members get Confused.  I think someone broke out the magic mushrooms at this point!

In all other cases, I'd get either:

-  Game softlocks, with the Luna sprite still on-screen, spell animation does not start playing before the softlock begins.  Music still plays...
-  Game crashes to a black screen immediately after Luna is meant to vanish back to the Elemental Moonlight dimension... or whatever it is.  Music still plays...
-  Game actually does a soft-reset, was not using SRAM at the time, so don't know if you can just load your game from that.  Was using two savestates instead.




Did you get all of that?!  Don't worry.  My brain's overheated too!  :laugh:

Unfortunately, I cannot for the life of me work out, or even speculate, on what would be causing the spell to do that.  Since no-one in their right mind cares about casting Lunar Magic, in its Vanilla form, with the Sprite, this is not quite as serious as it might have been.  It's just... very weird.  Kinda like the Moon element itself...  :crazy:

Sorry I can't offer more information than that.  I have not yet gotten around to teaching myself the basics of using a debugger, to track code in real-time.  Hope to see you again soon... I think hmsong might be really missing you (just kidding)!   :laugh:

Take it easy... aaaand that's enough from me just now.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: hmsong on September 19, 2019, 09:37:06 am
@zoolgremlin

Thank you.  Thanks to your list, I tested things out about the drop rate -- The good news is that I gave Rabite a 63 drop rate (99 in decimal), and it always dropped chests (Woot!).  I haven't tested 64+ though.  The bad news is that after Change Form, it didn't affect the drop rate, even after I transformed the monster to Rabite.  In short, there's no point in Change Form to affect the drop rate of the original monster (Boo...).  What a let-down.  Sigh.

I assume in code [08 10 F8 40 04] for Rabite, 08 is the drop rate (percentage?).  What are the other numbers?  I'm guessing they're the contents, but there are 4 numbers, when there are only 2 possible contents.  I know I'm asking a lot, but could you define what those item numbers are, assuming they are item numbers?  It'd be cool if I can edit them (even the bosses).

Btw, thank you for the documents that you made.  I read them, and they're wicked useful (holy crap).  I think I downloaded some of them before, but I was... discouraged, because I had no idea what the documents were talking about.  I learned a bit more in the past few weeks.  Now, it's amazing how much mileage I'm getting out of those documents.  Still, I have VERY limited knowledge when it comes to editing these things, but somehow, even I can use them to do cool things now (still very limited).  Truly awesome.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 19, 2019, 09:49:25 am
@hmsong  Good to see you again!  I was starting to think it was your bedtime about an hour ago...  :D

Ah yes, as with the other tables, I am supposed to ensure each individual value, whatever the address size, is explained in terms of how the game uses it to... do what it does.  In the case of this table, I looked at various documentation but unfortunately... what I have doesn't explain how these values get translated into results, at least I think.  So that means... I'm still a bit stuck myself, about which value means what.  <sigh>

I can at least say this:  I suspect that the values of a Chest an enemy drops is determined by its original ID number, which doesn't change even if the monster is Transformed.  Perhaps that can be changed, but I don't yet know how.

I'm very sorry, that I can't tell you more right now.  I intend for all the documents that make it into that folder, to be not just well laid-out, but also as informative as possible.  They're still technically a work in progress, but that Drop Table in particular needs a lot of TLC.  If only I knew the formula for it!  :laugh:

Still, I'm glad you got a little value out of them.  It takes an awful lot to dissect a game's inner workings and understand them.  I'm still learning too.

But hopefully, you'll be able to do at least a few things with the game, that you like.  I have as well... just haven't mentioned all of them yet.  Hope you have a good one...  8)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190915
Post by: hmsong on September 19, 2019, 10:04:15 am
@zoolgremlin

Yeah, it's currently near 23:00 where I am (S.Korea).  I'm gonna sleep after this.

I'm still going to edit the possible monsters for Change Form, just for my own entertainment.  I'm thinking this:
Code: [Select]
0x02 Mushboom Plant Dryad
0x0B Goblin Guard Human Earth
0x0F Dark Funk Ghost Fire
0x12 Zombie Undead Dark
0x15 Nemesis Owl Bird Wind
0x1F Werewolf Animal Luna
0x33 Weepy Eye Plant Light <<-- Change this to Tough type
0x34 Shellblast Lizard Water

That way, all monsters have various species and elements.  Well, there's two Animal/Bird.  I wanted there to be a dragon type, but there wasn't (at least, among the normal monsters).  Oh well.  Maybe I'll change few monsters to Dragon type, and then edit what monsters I want on my Change Form list.

I wonder if there's a way for Change Form to affect my characters...  That way, I can control monster bodies (only melee attack and item usage -- no spell, no equip).

I'd really appreciate it if you can come up with a list of all item ID codes at some point (consumables, armor, orbs, etc).  Then I can really go wild.  Haha.

Truly, thank you so much.  I'm gonna sleep now.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190919
Post by: Queue on September 19, 2019, 06:40:16 pm
Version 2019-09-19:
https://ufile.io/pymehwqb (https://ufile.io/pymehwqb)

Changes:
- Fixed game crashing bug in Magic\Spell_System_Extensions Lunar Magic reimplementation
- Implemented Magic\Comprehensive_Dispel; Dispel Magic also removes Lucid Barrier (Wall can prevent this) and Moon Energy (always)
- Implemented Magic\Stone_Saber_-_NPC_Version
- Implemented Magic\Mud_Saber_-_Replaces_Stone_Saber; replaces Petrify status on the Gnome Saber with the formerly unused "Paralyze" status
- Renamed Blaze Barrier to Inferno Barrier
- Fixed Shadow Saber showing as Evil Saber in-game
- Changed Shadow Saber's mana drain formula; old version stole between 3 and 135 mana, new version steals between 4 and ~40 mana (both versions depend on Shade level)
- Fixed Herbal Boost causing Wall bosses to cast Herbal Boost instead of Revivifier
- Implemented Balance\Less_Fragile_Pygmy; defense penalty reduced to 25% from 75%
- Implemented Balance\Defensive_Petrify; instant damage changed from 50% to 25% of current health and added a 25% physical defense bonus while in effect
- Changed Balance\Dangerous_Poison_And_Engulf Engulf damage from 1/32 of current to 1/64 of current
- Replaced Balance\Lower_Weapon_Status_Infliction with Balance\Weapon_Status_Chance; configurable in Advanced Settings
- Implemented Balance\Double_Saber_Status_Chance; meant for use with Weapon_Status_Chance (which reduces player weapon status chances from 80% down to 33% by default)
- Implemented Miscellaneous\Diverse_Chest_Traps; changed Punch Gloves damage from a fixed amount to a percentage if the victim's health (25%), changed Bomb damage into Engulf status effect, made chests from enemies over level 41 able to be any trap type
- Implemented Miscellaneous\Enable_Paralyze_Status; use with Mud Saber
- Implemented Bug_Fixes\Final_Saber_Hit; last Saber buff hit wasn't applying its effects

Technical Changes:
- Some Extended spell numbers were shuffled around when adding Mud Saber
- Changed descriptions containing ghosts to instead be ghosts/clouds
- Compatibility fixup for Tangled_Up_TextFix related to Relocalized
- Implemented Technical\Overwrite_Unused_Data; overwrites what should be unused data with 0xFF bytes to help locate available unused data
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190919
Post by: hmsong on September 19, 2019, 07:20:08 pm
Woo, update!  Several questions:

1. Not entirely sure what you mean by "Dispel Magic also removes Lucid Barrier (Wall can prevent this)".  Does that mean that Dispel no longer dispels Wall?  Or does Wall deflect Dispel now?
  Edit: Okay, I tested this, and Dispel seems to remove both Lucid Barrier and Wall (and even at the same time).  What do you mean, "Wall can prevent this"?

2. What's the difference between "Paralyze" (aka mired) and "Balloon", in terms of effects?  Mired seem to last shorter time (really short), but other than that, I'm not entirely sure.

3. In [Double_Saber_Status_Chance], can you clarify "Note: Causes a slight change to status effect infliction logic, so that instead of the enemy needing any incoming damage for the infliction to succeed, the current attack needs to be doing non-zero damage."  Does that mean that enemy has to do damage to inflict status?  Or is it the other way around?

Well, I'm gonna do some experiments to see, but it'd be nice to know ahead.

Thank you for depowering Petrify.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190919
Post by: Mr X on September 19, 2019, 07:29:30 pm
Dope update.

Does it mwean that if barrier and wall both are on, wall will prevent the dispel magic removing barrier until it's cast a second time?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190919
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 19, 2019, 09:28:10 pm
@Queue  Good to see you again... thanks for the latest update, there's a lot of great stuff in it.   8)

Quote
Queue:  Don't worry about burn out. If I do, I do, and honestly I do kinda want to be done with SoM, but I've been messing with it nearly daily since January, so... I have a bucket list of sorts, where once those are complete I'll probably be done, but I haven't gotten to all of them yet and new things to do keep popping up and delaying them getting completed.

Wow, 9 months is a long time to work on a patcher file!  If you don't mind me asking, how are you going with your "bucket list" of Turbo modules?   :o
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190919
Post by: John Enigma on September 19, 2019, 10:10:45 pm
And also, do you plan on releasing the source code of this hack once you're legit done with it?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190919
Post by: hmsong on September 20, 2019, 12:46:17 am
@zoolgremlin

Man, I've been experimenting with the documents you gave me (and having fun with them).  For now, the drop table.  I'm not sure what the heck "84" is, in terms of drop percentage.  I'm just guessing that it's treated the same as "04".  I have confirmed that changing the value to "64" is 100% drop rate (or damn close to it), so that's fun.  So thanks.

And for whatever reason, Shadow 1~3 are treated as "normal monster", although one-of-a-kind.  I want to make two of them drop Axe Orb and Glove orb (and the third drop the sword orb, which will prevent the Tree Palace sword orb chest, but that's okay).  That'll solve the missing orbs issue.

Sadly, I don't know how to edit enemy drop.  I took a look at the chart you gave me, and I'm sort of seeing a pattern, but I can't quite pin-point yet.  I eagerly wait for your item drop edit document.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190919
Post by: Mr X on September 20, 2019, 01:33:23 am
Woo, update!  Several questions:



2. What's the difference between "Paralyze" (aka mired) and "Balloon", in terms of effects?  Mired seem to last shorter time (really short), but other than that, I'm not entirely sure.

.

When enemies get inflicted with paralyze they still can attack/cast spells apparently but cannot walk.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190919
Post by: Queue on September 20, 2019, 02:13:52 am
zoolgremlin, thanks for pointing out the Lunar Magic issue, I'd messed up and missed a multiply by two, so instead of random result 0 being 0 bytes into the pointer table, result 1 being 2 bytes into the pointer table, result 2 being 4 bytes in, etc., result 0 was 0, 1 was 1, 2 was 2, 3 was 3, etc. Any of them that were an odd number of bytes into a table with 16-bit (2 byte) entries crashed because it was jumping to effectively a garbage address in code.

The ZPS file is internally divided up into virtual files. Any line that begins with an & (ampersand) is the beginning of a file, and it ends on the next line that starts with a & to define the next file. Any given file has to be reference by a parent file, up a chain to the hardcoded parent files, which I guess are &project.aps and &DEF.adf. In &DEF.adf you'll see a bunch of FILE <?????> lines that specify the first tier of child files (which functionally are like folders). So in &DEF.adf is FILE <(mods)>, later in the ZPS file is &(mods) which has FILE <Misc>, later is &(mods)\Misc containing FILE <LessFragilePygmy>, and later still is &(mods)\Misc\LessFragilePygmy, which itself contains an unnamed .asm file which contains some actual code.

&(mods)\Misc\LessFragilePygmy also defines which checkboxes in the UI (internally just called Options) are required for the feature to be enabled:
REQ [Balance]
REQ Less_Fragile_Pygmy

The .asm files are named via ASM <*.asm> instead of FILE <*.asm> and have a few restrictions on which keywords work in them. I don't recall off the top of my head what those are, but there are differences. There's also a DIR <> keyword that automatically includes any child files, but it prevents child files using REQ keywords to prevent inclusion later, so I generally avoid it.

You can set up a virtual file that doesn't require any checkboxes; really, at a minimum you just need some FILE <> up the hierarchy to reference your new file lower down for the ZPS patcher to actually parse whatever it contains.

As for long quotes, if you're concerned, you can wrap them in [ spoiler ] [ /spoiler ] tags so someone has to intentionally show it. The forum posts have a character limit of like, 15000 or something, which I've definitely hit. -_-

My bucket list isn't complete. Examples are:
- longterm: make New Game Plus not suck
- longterm: deal with second player hitting whip post
- rewrite overcharge fix
- moon phases
- kilroy door
- fork bow
- check whip event CF03 and NPC guardian spell?
- super fast enemy recovery / unstunnable enemies?

Admittedly, some of those are just general to-do list stuff, but some of the stuff in my to-do list is what I consider my bucket list.



hmsong, Disappearing Rudolf is a maybe for getting fixed (it's not a particularly big issue). His positioning during the ending credits is also screwy and something I've been meaning to see if is reasonable to change (he's standing next to Sant'a house and then faces right, which causes his butt to sort of extend over the building, and it looks dumb). I don't intend to fix Revisit Potos or Revisit Moon Palace dark room; both are harmless / neat quirks of the game. Infinite money should be fixed by No_Blats_To_Sell; though if there are other ways to trigger the bug I'd like to know about them.

The cannon travel issue you point out I'll need to look at and figure out exactly how the events were changed. If VWF / Relocalized changed cannon travel destinations I'll be reverting them, I just wasn't aware if they had.

I really like the Goblin Village idea. It's not going to be easy but I should be able to make something work. It'll likely require 4 doors, so hopefully there are enough unused doors to make it work.

I actually use Revivifier (I hate consumable items in video games and will always use alternatives given the chance). That said, I have something in mind for it that you'll hopefully like. Assuming I make it work, but I've still got a bit of spell system stuff to tangle with so it seems likely.

For the 5-byte drop table entries, the last two bytes are the two items a monster can drop or the amount of gold in a chest. So for a Rabite, the 4th byte is 0x40, which is Candy apparently (numbers up to and including 0x4B should be items, 0x4C and above are equipment, I think... I haven't messed with this too much), and the 5th is 0x04, which is the 4 gold chest Rabites can drop. Weapon orbs are 0x80 - 0x87. I do not know what the 2nd and 3rd bytes do. My guesses would be related to trap chance, and whether the last two bytes are items / gold, but that's just a guess. Looking at the drop chance entries, I suspect the high bit (0x80) isn't part of the drop chance but some flag for chest behavior.

Change form on the players seems dangerous: the players have a lot more animations than most monsters, and if you were in monster form and an invalid animation gets played, poof goes the player (this can be seen in a vanilla bug with frosty form; if you can trigger the "pushing" animation to play while a character is frostied, they'll cease to exist because it plays the cannon fuse  burning animation which despawns them when it finishes). The player moogle form has tons of animations defined to try and avoid this bug (don't recall if they did the same safety work for pygmy, pygmy moogle, petrified or pygmy petrified though).

The Dispel Magic thing is that, if the target has Wall AND Lucid Barrier, and Dispel fails to completely remove Wall, it won't remove Lucid Barrier. If Wall is successfully removed, or the target doesn't have Wall, Lucid Barrier will always be entirely removed (and Inferno Barrier for that matter; it uses the same "has barrier" flag). Dispel always entirely removes Moon Energy (with the feature enabled).

Mired prevents movement but not attacking. Enemies (or players) can change which way they're facing and use physical attacks while mired. If the duration is super short I may need to figure out why; I thought it'd be roughly the same as most status effects, but my testing of that wasn't thorough.

Let's see if I can explain the Double_Saber_Status_Chance Note.

Vanilla behavior:
1) when your weapon can apply a status effect (either innately or because of a Saber spell)
2) when you strike an enemy it checks if they're immune to any status effect being attempted (in theory a weapon or Saber spell could have multiple status effects assigned), and if not
3) it then uses a random number against the status chance of the weapon to see if it should apply the status effect, and if the check passes
4) it then checks if that enemy has any incoming damage that hasn't been applied yet; it doesn't matter if the current attack did 0 damage or not, all it checks is if there's damage queued up to happen, and if so
5) set the status effect to be applied

Double_Saber_Status_Chance behavior:
1) same as vanilla
2) same as vanilla
3) halve the random number if a Saber buff (which is the same as doubling the weapon's chance), then compare against the weapon's status chance, and if the check passes
4) check if the current attack is going to do more than zero damage, and if so
5) same as vanilla

So the difference is in vanilla, it should be possible for an attack that will do 0 damage to apply its status effect if that enemy is already in the process of taking damage. This is basically a bug fix, but it's very hard to separate this "fix" from Double_Saber_Status_Chance, or for Double_Saber_Status_Chance to work without this fix, due to code space constraints. I had to do something fairly tricky to get this to work. in the space of only 6 bytes.



Mr X, the Gigas's are all ghosts apparently. For reference, most ghosts can't be hit with melee because their animations turn on that flickery transparency effect which disables their collision.

More or less what you guessed on Wall / Lucid Barrier. It's if Wall isn't present, or is present but is removed, Lucid Barrier will be removed. If Dispel fails to remove Wall (you get the message) then it won't remove Lucid Barrier either.



John Enigma, the ZPS file is a text file containing largely SNES assembly code. So, the ZPS file is the source code of this project. I do not have the source code for the ZPS Patcher itself.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190919
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 20, 2019, 02:57:08 am
@Queue  You're very welcome for the Lunar Magic report.  I feel sorry for you having to read it, though.  All that text just to describe a bug, whodathunkit?!  So that's what was happening with the spell... great stuff.  :laugh:

Thanks very much for clarifying how the ZPS file syntax and reference system works, it looks like I simply wasn't setting up the reference to my script properly.  I tried piggybacking a few more tweaks than just the Stat Menu fix, on one of the modules that was already there [Tangled_Up_Bugfix].  That... only partially worked, and I couldn't figure out the reason.  I have copied your explanation into Wordpad for later reference offline, and will continue to experiment with the ZPS File.  Cheers, you're a legend in your own time!   :woot!:

Oh, and I had a feeling your bucket list still had a lot of things in it, damn.   :(

I don't think I've hit the 15000 character limit, yet.  But tomorrow's another day, isn't it?  See you later on, hope you have a good one.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190919
Post by: hmsong on September 20, 2019, 03:27:22 am
@Queue

Thank you for telling me the drop item things.  I shall keep that in mind while experimenting.  And I think you're right about the "84".  I think anything above 80 makes the chest run away.

Oh, so that's what miring does.  Thanks.  I tried things again with that in mind, and it seems to last decent amount of time (well, about the same duration as Petrify, which has the shortest duration of all stat effects).  I was confused, because I thought it would be paralysis, yet the monster was attacking.  So I withdraw what I said before mire being short duration.  I assume mired monsters can still cast spells.

I wish Mud Saber would make the weapons brown instead of grey, but that's asking too much (it's not even that important).

Dispel can "fail" to nullify Wall?  I didn't know that.

And now that Lucid Barrier can be nullified by Dispel, can you make Mana Beast auto-cast Lucid Barrier instead of Wall?  That'll make that thing WAY more challenging.  Not to mention it gives Popoi something to do.  Oh, and have it cast Lv9 magics instead of Lv8.  That way, Mana Beast will be the only monster to cast Lv9 magics (makes sense too).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190919
Post by: Mr X on September 20, 2019, 04:54:37 am
The goblins from gaia they do drop gumdrop (candy) but it said confusion ring when the chest opened. It was still a gumdrop.

Happens with some other enemies too, it says ac sometimes
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190919
Post by: hmsong on September 20, 2019, 08:31:56 am
@zoolgremlin

Say, your [Monster Treasure Drops Data Table] document is actually AFTER applying the Faerie Coconut.  I noticed it after I compared it to my monster drop list.  I thought you should know.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190919
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 20, 2019, 06:40:01 pm
@hmsong  Things seem... quieter here than I remember.  Then again, I suppose people are at work and stuff...  :laugh:

Anyway, I checked the Drop Table document, and you're absolutely right.  The value 0x4B is used by kethinov's [Faerie_Coconut] patch to point to the Coconut as a "Common" or "Rare" drop.  In Vanilla that value was used for the dummied-out item, that either did nothing at all, or bugged the game.  I forget what the effect was...

What's happened here is that I've ripped the 8-bit values from a patched ROM with [Faerie_Coconut] enabled, since I really like that patch.  What I was supposed to do, is rip the values from a Vanilla ROM, as that's the whole point of the documents.

I'm now fixing it, thanks for letting me know.  See you again soon...  :thumbsup:

UPDATE:

Aaaand... done!  Sad to say I didn't do much with the tables yesterday.  Was busy hex-editing the hell out of the algorithms for calculating:

      A.  The damage done by a physical attack, which is affected by a lot more values than you'd think, for such a simple game
      B.  The sub-routine that sets the ceiling and floor values for base stats like Strength, as well as derived stats like Hit%
      C.  Modifiers to Hit%, Evade%, and MagicBlock% as derived from Agility and Wisdom, respectively

It took a while, but I'm taking a crash course in 65816 assembly, so that my hex-edits can set Opcode values as well as raw data.  Once I can write them into the ZPS file and have them work, I might actually be getting somewhere!   :-\

But I'll save the real explanation for later.  Time for sleep...  :D
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190919
Post by: hmsong on September 20, 2019, 08:13:08 pm
@zoolgremlin

Thank you so much.  I shall play around with it some more.  I still have absolutely no idea what 2nd and 3rd bit does, but obviously, they are related to the drop items (whether the content is money or items or orb?).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: Queue on September 20, 2019, 08:37:09 pm
Version 2019-09-20:
https://ufile.io/ty3gk7yz (https://ufile.io/ty3gk7yz)

Changes:
- Implemented Magic\Revivifier_-_Turn_Undead; normal behavior if an ally is dead, can target enemies if allies are all alive; hurts ghost/undead enemies, but can also heal other enemy types, I think it only heals bosses, didn't verify behavior in that case
- Implemented Magic\Dispel_Magic_-_Target_Allies; normal behavior if enemies are in view, can target allies if not
- Added compatibility fixup to QuickSpell_Hotkeys for Herbal_Boost and the new targeting stuff related to new targeting options for Revivifier / Dispel Magic
- Fixed a graphics bug when multi-target casting Inferno Barrier

Technical Changes:
- Implemented new spell targeting types, basically:
- Allies first, enemies if no valid allies (only really viable with Revivifier and maybe Mana Magic since those have additional rules to result in no valid teammate targets)
- Enemies first, allies if no valid enemies
- Uses bit 0x10 in the spell data target field, defines of: SSE.Target.AllyOrEnemy, SSE.Target.AlliesOrEnemies, SSE.Target.EnemyOrAlly, SSE.Target.EnemiesOrAllies



hmsong, I'll probably recolor Mud Saber, but want to make sure I stick with that name.

If Wall is high level and Dispel is low level (or if you multi-target cast it, which divides its level by the number of targets) it only removes some layers of Wall, and you get a message related to Wall if it doesn't reduce the Wall use count to 0.

Not ready to mess with changing bosses at the moment. Also, when I tried giving the sword orb snowmen level 8 fireball (the dragon worm animation) the palette was wrong; not sure if that's a universal issue with enemies and the highest level spell graphics or was some other oddity I was running into.

Mr X, I haven't been able to reproduce the wrong chest messages yet, but my testing was somewhat artificial (high level characters). My first instinct is it's going to be related to the chest trap changes I made, but haven't spotted anything obvious.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: hmsong on September 20, 2019, 08:58:24 pm
WHOA!!!

Holy crap, you made a patch where you can target your own allies as well as enemies?  Hot damn.  That's awesome.  I'm gonna have fun with this one.  And yes, that Turn Undead spell sounds awesome.  Very awesome.  And Dispel too.  I always wanted Stardust Herb, specifically for that, and now, I can.

It makes me wonder if Remedy can be targetted to enemy to do... something to certain enemies.  Food for thought.  Kinda interesting, that Primm doesn't do "direct damage to everyone", but attacks specific types of enemies.

Awesome.

Btw, the MSU-1 music, while great sound, is a bit too slow (well, some of them are okay).  Is the new remake music as fast as the vanilla music?  Slow music just doesn't... feel right in an action RPG like this.

Also, I was reading up on some of the Mana wiki, and it reminded me about Black Rabite.  It might have been kinda cool to have that Sword Farm monster be Black Rabite than a snowman (same melee immunity and duplication, plus scary melee attacks).  But that's just my own opinion.  Maybe replace Fireball with Dark Force, since Dark Force is only used by two enemies -- Lime Slime and Dark Lich.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 20, 2019, 09:11:24 pm
Ah well... I was trying to go to sleep, but my mind is too excited by new breakthroughs to go silent...  :D

@hmsong  It is always possible, that the second and third bytes in each monster's drop table set don't do anything.  That's the funny thing about computers - you can have all the data in the world stored somewhere, but if no function or subroutine comes to fetch that data and perform operations on it, then all that data... doesn't do any good.  In the case of video games, without sufficient programming logic to use the data, there is no game!  Or not as much of one as there could have been...  :laugh:

There's a long story about how Secret of Mana was originally designed, to premiere on the famous CD-addon for the SNES.  Sony and Nintendo were going to partner up on that high-falutin rin-tin-tootin' project.  Of course, Nintendo screwed themselves up the ass, and that CD add-on... never happened.  So the game had to be redesigned to fit on a piddling 16Mb cartridge.  That's 16 megaBITS, not 16 megaBYTES.  So only an eighth as much as 16 megaBYTES would've been.  If an SNES cart could've even held that much data, Square would definitely have used it for even fancier graphics and sound.  They didn't have that luxury, so the Vanilla game is what we got.

Sorry I haven't formatted the Monster Drop Table yet, I'll get there eventually.

Not sure why the MSU-1 music would be slow for you.  If I had to guess, maybeeee... ZSNES can't handle the flow of data needed to playback those music files.  Maybe... :-\



@Queue  Another quick update!  Luckyyyy... I'm intrigued by the idea of new Spell-Targetting logic, I will admit.  Especially for Dispel Magic!  How good is that!?   :woot!:

Was not aware that bit 0x10 in the spell data blocks could be used for that...

If I'm remembering correctly, Regrs once said that Revivifier could only work on player characters and bosses, which is why Wall Face and Doom's Wall can use it.  But that's one more function I haven't located or analyzed just yet... with all these disassembly files and annotations, I've got reading material for miles and miles.  It's great stuff if you can get it, especially if you have a long-haul flight to fill in.  Which by the way, I would know nothing about.

Thanks for the latest release...  8)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: hmsong on September 20, 2019, 11:01:54 pm
@zoolgremlin

Yeah, I too heard about the SNES was suppose to have CD or something.  MSU-1 was supposed to be used for that, I think.  I'm not saying the music in ZSNES is slow.  I'm saying the music itself (the original music) is slow.  I know, because I played it in Audacity to confirm the original speed.

Take your time with your Monster Drop Table.  You own that thing.  I'm just a part of audience.

I'm certain at least 3rd byte is used for something, because looking at the Faerie Coconut patch, Shapeshifter's item drop edit used that bit.  I just don't know what it does.  Or where that "40" came from (I'm sure there's some sort of pattern, but I don't see it).  Besides, some have the same code (ex: Rabite's 4 GP and Goblin's Headgear have the same "04" code).

Btw, I editted my Change Form possible monsters.  All different type (except one), and all different elements.  And all pre-Empire.  And changed some types.  And increased Mimic drop to 100%.

Code: [Select]
' Rabite --> Goblin Guard
@OFF $C8E5F3
RAW 0B

' Mushboom --> Dark Funk
@OFF $C8E5F4
RAW 0F

' Lullabud --> Zombie
@OFF $C8E5F5
RAW 12

' Kid Goblin --> Nemesis Owl
@OFF $C8E5F6
RAW 15

' Green Drop --> Pumpkin Bomb
@OFF $C8E5F7
RAW 17

' Water Thug --> Evil Sword
@OFF $C8E5F8
RAW 21

' Pebbler --> Weepy Eye
@OFF $C8E5F9
RAW 33

' Pumpkin Bomb --> Shellblast
@OFF $C8E5FA
RAW 34

' Mimic Box type = Fish/Plant -> Insect/Metal
@OFF $D02127
RAW 04

' Weepy Eye type = Fish/Plant -> Insect/Metal
@OFF $D021D5
RAW 04

' Mimic Drop-Percentage to 100%
@OFF $D03B31
RAW 64

I have you to thank, so thank you.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: Queue on September 20, 2019, 11:26:32 pm
hmsong, in ZSNES's sound options menu, do you have sampling rate set to 44100HZ? If it's slow, it might be set to 32000HZ (which might be the ZSNES default? I forget). If that's not it, and you just don't like the tempo of the remake's music, you could set the sampling rate to 48000HZ in settings and the music will play fast, but you may think it's too fast then.

The tough part with Remedy and how my, uhm, let's call it "invertable targeting" works at the moment, is there would have to be no valid ally target, which would mean adding code so that Remedy won't target an ally unless they have a status effect that needs curing (not that that's a bad idea, just it's not zero work to add that check) before it could target enemies. OR making the spell target enemies by default and only usable on allies once there are no enemies.

I wasn't able to make the targeting simply able to pick between anyone freely because the targeting code only has 3 slots for targets, which it chooses early then cycles between; my code special cases if no targets are found, then inverts the target enemies bit (0x80) and reruns the targeting logic. I may be able to come up with full free targeting, but that didn't happen on my first attempt.

Things are likely stabilizing with the current crop of spell changes, so I want to get the Magic_Recharging values updated using your observations on when the timer starts for which type of spell cast animation. My goal isn't to necessarily have a fast recast option for every element for both characters, but to try and deal with some of the combinations that come out exceptionally long or exceptionally short and end up making some spells undesirable, or too desirable (especially between the simple damage only spells). I know this has been discussed already, but was hoping for a fresh round of reasoning now that quite a few spells have been changed.

zoolgremlin, bah, 2 megabytes is all the space a game will ever need. I'm just thankful Secret of Mana is HiROM and not LoROM.

ZSNES is lightning fast (in the sense of it uses very little processing power to work); it sounds like hmsong thinks the remake's music has too slow of a tempo by design. Regardless, the ZSNES MSU-1 implementation (which I wrote) simply takes the bytes straight from the PCM audio files and dumps them straight into the sound buffer as-is, with no processing to account for sampling rate difference between the PCM file (44100 Hz) and whatever the sound buffer is set to. At the beginning of each "frame" of sound, ZSNES normally zeroes its sound buffer, then mixes each SNES sound channel's data into the buffer; I replace this zeroing with directly dumping PCM data in so I didn't have to add any code to mix the PCM sound in (since it comes first). I don't do any processing on the PCM audio for a few reasons:
1) is effectively laziness, I burned a lot of time getting it working at all and wanted to be "done"
2) was I really wanted to keep code size small, since it's inside the SoM Turbo ROM
3) processing sound is pretty annoying, the silver lining is I learned a lot about digital audio data that I wasn't aware of, like how grossly misunderstood it generally is (e.g. the "stair-stepped quantized digital audio" complaints you generally see are a misunderstanding of what the data represents)

It's not that bit 0x10 of the spell data target field "could" be used for that, I just made it mean that. The target value has 4 used bits:
0x80 means target enemies
0x40 means target boy holding sword (if 0x80 isn't set)
0x20 means target chests (if 0x80 is also set)
0x01 means multi-targetable
The other bits just aren't checked so I could use them for whatever. I use 0x10 to mean "invertable" and internally use 0x08 in the QuickSpell code's targeting code since it needs to update targets in real time (not sure what I'd name bit 0x08; something like, "currently inverted"). The normal spell targeting code clears the 0x10 bit if it inverts since it's not real time so doesn't need a second bit to track state (clears the bit to avoid an infinite loop).

Revivifier specifically checks the targets type when cast, and if it's not a player or boss it skips to the function's return without curing status effects or healing. For Turn Undead, I changed it to jump beyond the end of the function's return, check if the target is a ghost/undead, if so, jump to the basic damage spell function, and if not, just jump back up to the healing part of the Revivifier function. If you time it right, it can revive a normal enemy as they die; hopefully that doesn't cause any bugs. Hm... I bet it does. Those might be fun.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: hmsong on September 20, 2019, 11:42:32 pm
Quote
in ZSNES's sound options menu, do you have sampling rate set to 44100HZ? If it's slow, it might be set to 32000HZ (which might be the ZSNES default? I forget). If that's not it, and you just don't like the tempo of the remake's music, you could set the sampling rate to 48000HZ in settings and the music will play fast, but you may think it's too fast then.

I set it to 44100HZ, as instructed.  I even confirmed the speed with Audacity.  Some tracks are just slow for the CD version.  I just want to check if the CD version and the PS4 remake have the same speed song.

Quote
The tough part with Remedy and how my, uhm, let's call it "invertable targeting" works at the moment, is there would have to be no valid ally target, which would mean adding code so that Remedy won't target an ally unless they have a status effect that needs curing (not that that's a bad idea, just it's not zero work to add that check) before it could target enemies. OR making the spell target enemies by default and only usable on allies once there are no enemies.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that.  You're right.  Nvm about my Remedy suggestion.  Love the new Turn Undead.  I still haven't tested thoroughly with that, but I shall.

Ahh, the spell recharge.  I'm thinking:
Code: [Select]
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_LONG ' Earth Slide
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_MEDIUM ' Gem Missile
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_SHORT ' Speed Down

ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_SHORT ' Mud Saber
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_SHORT ' Speed Up
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_SHORT ' Defender


ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_MEDIUM ' Freeze, assuming this is powered down
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_LONG ' Acid Storm
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_LONG ' Energy Absorb

ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_SHORT ' Ice Saber
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_MEDIUM ' Remedy
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_LONG ' Cure Water


ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_MEDIUM ' Fireball
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_LONG ' Exploder
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_LONG ' Lava Wave

ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_SHORT ' Flame Saber
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_LONG ' Fire Bouquet
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_MEDIUM ' Inferno Barrier


ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_MEDIUM ' Air Blast
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_LONG ' Thunderbolt
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_MEDIUM ' Silence

ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_SHORT ' Thunder Saber
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_MEDIUM ' Balloon
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_SHORT ' Analyzer


ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_MEDIUM ' Change Form
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_LONG ' MP Absorb
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_LONG ' Lunar Magic

ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_SHORT ' Moon Saber
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_SHORT ' Lunar Boost
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_LONG ' Turn Undead


ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_MEDIUM ' Sleep Flower
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_LONG ' Burst
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_SHORT ' Mana Magic

ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_SHORT ' Herbal Boost <- short, only because it "resets" the timer
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_MEDIUM ' Wall
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_SHORT ' Mana Magic


ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_SHORT ' Shadow Saber
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_LONG ' Dark Force
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_MEDIUM ' Dispel Magic

ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_SHORT ' Light Saber
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_LONG ' Lucent Beam
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_MEDIUM ' Lucid Barrier

Tell me what you think about it.

I also edited this earlier, but you may not have seen it:

Quote
Also, I was reading up on some of the Mana wiki, and it reminded me about Black Rabite.  It might have been kinda cool to have that Sword Farm monster be Black Rabite than a snowman (same melee immunity and duplication, plus scary melee attacks).  But that's just my own opinion.  Maybe replace Fireball with Dark Force, since Dark Force is only used by two enemies -- Lime Slime and Dark Lich.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 21, 2019, 01:10:46 am
@hmsong & Queue  Your new values for creature-types, and the Change Form table look pretty good.  It's possible that Square's original intent with Change Form, was to have it turn a strong monster into a weak one.  That way, you could kill stuff a lot easier, after you get Luna's magic.  Which is after the halfway point, so it sorta makes sense that a later-obtained spell would be potentially more useful/powerful than an earlier one.  But with hex-editing/patching, you can make it do other stuff.  Stuff that makes it more... interesting.     ;D

I finally saw the spell function used for Revivifier in documentation, so I could see where the Branch instruction was.  Don't see why using Jumps or Branches in a different way would cause any bugs.  From what I can tell, the Branch out of routine instruction is the only thing that stops the spell from being castable on a monster.  So... if there's a bug, it might be because monsters are programmed to despawn immediately after receiving the Death flag, and play their "killed" animation.  The left and right Eyes with the Wall Bosses don't do that, so the game doesn't bug out there, but that's just speculation for now.  Let's see what happens, that's the fun of doing these things, I believe.    :D

I see what you mean about the MSU-1 patch.  It's quite a nice thing, that you were able to get the Remake music working with your patch.  At least, I think you said that you personally, were using those tracks.  Hmsong might be using the other ones I don't know much about.

Regarding the 2MB-ROM size thing, we could at least say that it worked well enough back in the day.  Only thing I could add to that, is hearing about the possibility of Square no longer developing for Nintendo hardware, due to being gypped by the deal going south.  Whether rightly or wrongly, they went over to developing for Sony hardware instead, which being CD-based gave them the storage capacity they wanted in the first place.  That may not be the true story, it's just what I heard.   :huh:

Ah well, I think I'm ready for a nap now.  Will let you all know more about what I have tried to do with hex-editing/ZPS modification when I wake up.   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: Mr X on September 21, 2019, 01:23:15 am
Vampire Lord (Buffy lol) does use dark force too if you are talking just about bosses. hmsong

From enemy mobs I've seen the dark knight use it as well, but I can't remember if the head enemy in mana fortress did it too.

Onto testing

September 21, 2019, 01:51:49 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Also as a warning, the fire gigas boss became more difficult with the lavawave, since he multitargets that spell all your party members could get engulfed.

Personally wont mind it tho. But if you find that unfair maybe change it to single target, that can be an evil spell for that point in the game, or remove it as he already has a fire engulfing attack, real talk all he really needs is a strong fireball spell and the engulf attack, which would serve the same purpose and that being physical type can be blocked also.

But anyway, up to you to decide that, just my opinion on the matter.

September 21, 2019, 02:05:58 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Tried out Revifier, definitely heals any other enemy that isn't undead.

And tried it on the vampire lord boss, healed him, so it doesn't matter if the boss is undead, all of them will get healed I guess.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: hmsong on September 21, 2019, 05:43:12 am
Mr X

I don't know about Vampire Lord, but you're right about Dark Knight being able to use Dark Force.  Fiend Head used Exploder, although Mana wiki says he can use Evil Gate and Lava Wave.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 21, 2019, 05:44:52 am
@Mr. X 
Quote
Vampire Lord (Buffy, lol) does use dark force too if you are talking just about bosses. hmsong

From enemy mobs I've seen the dark knight use it as well, but I can't remember if the head enemy in mana fortress did it too.

You're absolutely right.  Fierce Head in the Dark Palace can cast Dark Force LV 5, and Fiend Head in the Fortress can cast it at LV 7.  But as with Mimic Box's Lunar Magic, it's possible they don't stay alive long enough for their AI-roulette to land on that option.

I only just now remembered, having not played the game that far through while bugtesting and hex-editing.  I'm supposed to have tried New Game Plus to give feedback on it to Queue, but that I still haven't done yet.   :(

Lava Wave from the monsters would also be far more dangerous if it caused Petrify, which I think hmsong proposed a while back.  Hee hee, yikes...  :laugh:

@Queue  Yes, the three Gigaseseses (lol) are indeed flagged as Ghosts.  I first found out the hard way when Magic Absorb got reversed on me, back in the Vanilla days.

By the way, I'm curious as to why you think your own [New_Game_Plus] feature needs work to make it "not suck".  It seems fine to me... apart from the graphical glitch with the Option Event Message, at the end of a first playthrough ("But time flows like a river... and history <OPTION 1: repeats...> <OPTION 2:  then ends...>").

I like what you did there...  :happy:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: hmsong on September 21, 2019, 05:52:38 am
@zoogremlin

Yeah, Lava Wave having Petrify is pretty bad.  Fire Gaia can use it too, on my entire party, so that was bad.  Now that Mire is another option, I'm gonna replace Lava Wave's Petrify with Mire, and keep the Stone Saber (at least Stone Saber is powered down).  I hope Queue comes up with a new stat effect (one of the unused stun/busy) that is the opposite end of Mire -- you can move, but you can't attack nor cast (let's call that Fear, or Scare).  I'm pretty sure Busy was suppose to be that.

Or he can use both unused stat effects -- one disables only melee (Scare), and the other only disables casting (Silence).


@Queue

To show that the victim is Mired, maybe you can temporarily make the victim sprites brown (similar to how Petrify turns the victim to grey).  Also, maybe Dragon Ring can defend against Mire.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 21, 2019, 06:23:17 am
@hmsong:  That's a neat idea with Fear opposing Mire or the proposed Silence.  It would be good for the monster data sets to have an extra byte, or maybe just 2-4 bits, used for new status defects that are defined elsewhere in the ROM.  But that might require moving the entire monster stat table somewhere else in the ROM, and then separating each monster set by 1 byte to make room for a 30th 8-bit address per monster, to be used as status-defect flags.  Unless the data sets have an unused byte or nibble, which could be used for the same purpose.  In the former case, it's quite possible, but would take some forward-planning and a fair bit of time to reallocate data, and redefine what it's used for.   The latter case may be more straightforward... :)

The other option is to change an existing status defect into the Fear defect.  Would have to really think about which is more desirable, as well as easiest to implement.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: hmsong on September 21, 2019, 06:32:03 am
@hmsong  :That's a neat idea with Fear opposing Mire.  It would be good for the monster data sets to have an extra byte, or maybe just 2-4 bits, used for new status defects that are defined elsewhere in the ROM.  But that might require moving the entire monster stat table somewhere else in the ROM, and then separating each monster set by 1 byte to make room for a 30th 8-bit address per monster, to be used as status-defect flags.  Unless the data sets have an unused byte or nibble, which could be used for the same purpose.  In the former case, it's possible, but would take some forward-planning and a fair bit of time to reallocate data, and redefine what it's used for.   :)

The other option is to change an existing status defect into the Fear defect.  Would have to really think about which is more desirable, as well as easiest to implement.

Yeesh.  All I understood from that was that it's difficult to implement.  Well, just food-for-thought.  Also, "Fear" doesn't quite work, at least in the sentence structure (ex: Rabite was Feared).  What's the better word?  Maybe Horrified?  Terrified?  Frightened?  Sounds a bit long.  Scared is the best one I can come up with.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: Mr X on September 21, 2019, 07:59:58 am
@Mr. X 
You're absolutely right.  Fierce Head in the Dark Palace can cast Dark Force LV 5, and Fiend Head in the Fortress can cast it at LV 7.  But as with Mimic Box's Lunar Magic, it's possible they don't stay alive long enough for their AI-roulette to select that option.

I only just now remembered, having not played the game that far through while bugtesting and hex-editing.  I'm supposed to have tried New Game Plus to give feedback on it to Queue, but that I still haven't done yet.   :(

Lava Wave from the monsters would also be far more dangerous if it caused Petrify, which I think hmsong proposed a while back.  Hee hee, yikes...  :laugh:

@Queue  Yes, the three Gigaseseses (lol) are indeed flagged as Ghosts.  I first found out the hard way when Magic Absorb got reversed on me, back in the Vanilla days.

By the way, I'm curious as to why you think your own [New_Game_Plus] feature needs work to make it "not suck".  It seems fine to me... apart from the graphical glitch with the Option Event Message, at the end of a first playthrough ("But time flows like a river... and history <OPTION 1: repeats...> <OPTION 2:  then ends...>".

I like what you did there...  :happy:

Yeah those monsters wont live long enough for them to use these spells or get patalyzed after one hit allowing me to easily outrun them. Lol

Lava wave now does engulf which thanks to this became more powerful as a status effect. Fire gigas would basically one shot you if he went lava wave on your party as it uses that on your whole party, take that into account if you wanna apply those changes by making it single or have one of the rings in that point of the game be resistant to petrify (preferably equiping it on the girl so then she would heal your whole party) :laugh:

Making Lava wave inflict mire works also. At least you would be able to use items/magic/attack still but not walk, unlike Engulf or Petrify which can mean your doom without some piece of equipment reisting them.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 21, 2019, 09:31:43 am
@hmsong  "Rabite's scared!" would work okay, I believe... well any of them actually.   :)

@Mr. X  Lave Wave inflicting Mire would be less hazardous than the improved-damage version of Engulf, certainly.

I'll be back shortly after I've looked at all my notes about hex-editing and putting new scripts into the ZPS file.  Cheers, guys...!    :D
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: Mr X on September 21, 2019, 09:43:29 am
If only there would be more equipment with status or elemental resistances, engulf or petrify on your whole party would still be manageable.

You need a bit of luck to survive fire gigas attacks otherwise, if he follows up with an exploder while engulf eats your hp, might as well be your doom.

Status/elemental resistence rings are a neat idea but it depends what is easier or harder to implement, not for me to decide that. I remember reading they were supposed to be a thing originally but got scrapped for the most part, except end game equipment some protecting you against multiple statuses (faerie rings, amulet rings and I think the imps ring).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 21, 2019, 10:01:45 am
Mr. X    With a hex-edit, it's possible to give more pieces of equipment status immunities, and/or element resist.  Another possibility is to hex-edit Fire Gigas' AI-script to only target a single character, when using a spell.

All three types of equipment can have element resist added to them, it's a very quick change to make if you know what data to edit.  I haven't yet figured out where exactly to write new code/script for game changes into the ZPS file.  The process of reading and writing code into the ROM uses a hierarchy of classes to determine the order in which the ZPS patcher executes its function.  I... think that's what Queue meant?

UPDATE:  NO.  That's absolutely not what he meant.  Starting to get it now...  :banghead:

The scripting syntax and the 65816 assembly instructions I'm getting the hang of.  It's the format in the ZPS file that I really... don't understand yet.  ::)

EDIT:  Seems to be just four of us using this thread.  Except for the occasional visit from other interested parties... :laugh:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: hmsong on September 21, 2019, 10:26:57 am
@Queue

It seems Revive is not renamed Turn Undead (at least in Relocalized version).  I'm not sure if that's intended or not.  Also, was there any particular reason for making the bosses immune to the Turn Undead damage?  It's not like it does any high damage (61 PWR), so I don't see why you would make the bosses immune to it.  If the bosses are demon/undead, then I think this spell should be able to do damage.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: Queue on September 21, 2019, 03:49:06 pm
Mr X, hm, I didn't mean to make the Fire Gigas even harder (I already think he's a pain in the butt in Turbo since he can be so magic spammy). I suppose the most straightforward option would be to make an NPC variant of Lava Wave that's just damage like vanilla, so regardless of how Lava Wave's changed, it doesn't affect NPCs.

One of my bucket list goals is to add elemental type to most chest armors; it just risks screwing up balance too much if the only armor available makes your characters weak to the dominant element in an area early / mid game, so I haven't tackled it yet. For example, if you only had water (weak to fire) armor for the fire gigas fight it'd be even worse.

This ties into one of my New Game Plus goals of ignoring defense and attack power from items on a NG+ run: all weapons will have the same base damage, all armor the same defense, so on NG+ you choose your weapon based on effect, your armor based on resists, rings for immunities and hats for stat bonuses (more or less), but otherwise can use any weapon or equipment in the game. This is because on a NG+ run you'd already have max equipment and all other items in the game would be otherwise useless.

But almost all of THAT ties into having an in-game display of item effects (so the player can make a decision without, uh, well, having to guess what equipment does), which has proven incredibly annoying to implement.

I really want to get the wrong chest messages figured out. Any other information you can figure out relating to that could prove useful (if certain enemies drop chests where it's right and others it's wrong, or if in some locations it's right / wrong, etc.). I've so far not had any chest give an unexpected message so there might be something fundamentally different between my test conditions and yours.



zoolgremlin, it's not that the code itself causes bugs, it's just being able to revive an enemy / boss that I expect could be a problem. What happens if you cast revive on a boss just as you kill it, so the revive hits after it started dying and clears the dead status? Or a normal enemy tied to an event? How does it interact with an enemy that is going to spawn a chest (I think a chest directly replaces the monster that drops it)?

The 2 MB line was a joke. -_- Turbo itself relies on the ROM being bumped to 4 MB.

New Game Plus sucking is just that I haven't put any time into boosted enemy stats (it's currently a simple boost to damage so you aren't just immune and health so things take more than one hit), or making player item options viable (because just wandering around in the endgame gear is boring; I want to wear the kung fu suit, tiger suit and... I dunno for the sprite).

The visual oddity in the NG+ dialogue choice is a flaw in the VWF text display code. It works well enough for all the dialogue choices available in the normal script, but it doesn't get positioning correct in the text I want to use. I'm not satisfied with it but it works well enough for now.



hmsong, I like your proposed spell recharge times, and am pretty sure I understand nearly all of your decisions (spells with travel times vs. not, beneficial with immediate effect vs. buffs, etc.), with only a couple cases I want insight on:
- You have Lunar Magic at long: I do have plans to change it, are you just assuming it will become something worth using? Because the vanilla spell seems too crummy to need a long recharge.
- You have Freeze at medium even though it's a direct damage spell (with the note of if it's weakened). I assume this is partly so that Undine isn't stuck with 3 long recasts. I think the Undine spell set just faces some fundamental issues: Energy Absorb is very good, Acid Storm includes a debuff that needs to be encouraged to be worth using (stuff generally dies too quickly to bother with debuffing defense OR magic defense), and Freeze is boring but obviously a viable choice if just spamming a damage spell. I think I need to review Freeze's power and mana cost, and Acid Storm's power and mana cost, and see if it'd be possible to encourage plentiful Acid Storm use without it making Freeze not worth using. Weakening Acid Storm's damage and treating it more like a stat debuff, and making it inexpensive to cast, may be what I'm considering.

Regarding the Black Rabite, copying him has crossed my mind, though if I do it'd just be an optional replacement. The weird snowman is literally what the unused enemy already was; I just gave him combat AI and adjusted some of his stats. Some complications of changing its appearance: its melee immunity is due to it being the snowman sprite (which has no melee collision), so the Black Rabite wouldn't be melee immune, and the AI would need to be heavily changed to account for Rabite animations.

Like with the Mud Saber coloring the weapon, I'm not yet committed to the "Mired" name for the status effect, so am holding off on making a visual effect until I've finalized the name. Also, applying a color effect is a lot of work, so only want to have to do it once for either. I'm considering "Quagmired" which isn't a real word, but sounds more fun, like "Frostied" or "Pygmized" are (which also aren't real words). The initial choice of "Mired" was because the definition fits the behavior almost perfectly, but it's definitely not especially common in everyday English, and is very literal.

Dragon Ring comes a little late in the game for Paralyze immunity (I know I've renamed it, but will likely keep referring to it as Paralyze until I'm happy with the new name), if it's the only immunity for it. I intend for it to be a lesser status effect (because it's just not that debilitating), so if it winds up on any NPC spells, attacks, etc., I'd be inclined for it to be earlier so want an early game item to have immunity for it.

The "Busy" and "Stun" status effects are used internally by the game for certain situations, so they're not actually available to be changed. "Busy" is used, for example, when opening a treasure chest. "Stun" is used when something takes ~25% or more of its health as damage in one hit.

Moogle status effect is specifically what you want (can move, can't attack), but every enemy is immune to it (almost definitely due to animation issues). Because of that, I can probably make enemies not immune and make it behave differently on an enemy than on a player (like not changing their sprite). Fear (and its related suggestions) as a name seems like a good fit, conceptually. Not sure how possible / practical a new Silence status effect would be; I'd think it would require lots of AI changes to make it interfere with only spell casting. What exactly does vanilla Confuse do to enemies?

Revivifier isn't renamed because it's fundamentally still the revive spell, it just can also be used on enemies, and as is a common behavior in RPGs, using a healing spell on undead hurts them. Whereas casting Turn Undead on a dead ally would be expected to hurt them further, no revive them. So it seemed like leaving the name as-is made more sense. Speaking of Relocalized, after these spell changes settle down a little I need to remember to go through and update the Relocalized spell descriptions (which include mana cost). As for bosses, I didn't make undead bosses immune, that's actually just part of the vanilla behavior of Revivifier making things complicated: the Wall bosses are evil/undead, but cast Revivifier on themselves; so just making boss behavior match non-boss enemy behavior would make that not work correctly. Making an NPC version of the spell, there's not enough space in the ROM where spell functions are for both vanilla Revivifier and the altered version. Now that I've gotten basic functionality working, I'll see what I can figure out so that it all works more usefully, and what I have in mind is:
- Wall bosses can cast on their eyes to revive them
- enemies can cast on themselves or other enemies to heal (in vanilla this would do nothing) but not revive; this would just be to add visual variety to enemy healing
- player can cast on dead heroes to revive them
- player can cast on undead/ghosts (enemies or bosses) to damage them (and I may make it ignore their magic defense)
- player can cast on normal enemies (and bosses) to heal them but NOT revive them (to avoid bugs)

I'm figuring out how to handle letting a spell cost health to cast (for Burst, etc.). What were you imagining for the health cost? A percentage of health? A fixed amount? Damage based on damage it does to the target? Does it only cost health or mana + health?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: hmsong on September 21, 2019, 06:10:27 pm
@Queue

Oh yeah.  Here's my reasoning for those spell recharges (I changed many spells):

-Cure Water   2MP --> 3MP (Cure Water is too OP -- makes cure items useless)
-Flame Saber   2MP --> 4MP (Engulf status is pretty useful)
+Lunar Boost   Eva Down --> None (Why would there be Eva down?)
+Herbal Boost   Target = One/All Ally (There's no reason not to)
-Herbal Boost   2MP --> 3MP (This is too OP for a 2MP spell)
+Light Saber   5MP --> 4MP (Even with Balloon patch, this is not 5MP worthy)
+Lucent Beam   None --> +Acc/Eva Down (It blinds)
+Lucent Beam   61PWR --> 79PWR (PWR increase)
+Lucent Beam   8MP --> 5MP (8MP?  What the hell?)
-Lucid Barrier   4MP --> 6MP (This is too good, and it should match Wall)

-Freeze      61PWR --> 43PWR (It's a 2MP spell (and first spell), so its PWR should be weaker)
+Acid Rain   43PWR --> 61PWR (PWR increase)
-Acid Rain   3MP --> 4MP (PWR went up, so Cost should go up)
-Energy Absorb   2MP --> 3MP (It does 43PWR and absorbs HP, so it should cost more)
-Fireball   52PWR --> 43PWR (It's a 2MP spell, so its PWR should be weaker)
+Exploder   4MP --> 3MP (It's a 61PWR spell, so it should cost 3MP)
+Lava Wave   Nothing --> +Mire (Just add an effect)
+Thunderbolt   4MP --> 3MP (It's a 61PWR spell, so it should cost 3MP)
+Silence   2MP --> 1MP (Silence status from magic is not very useful)
+Lunar Magic   Random --> All Stat Down (More consistency)
+Sleep Flower   2MP --> 1MP (Sleep status from magic is not very useful)
-Burst      4MP --> 5MP (It's the most powerful spell (100PWR), so it should cost more)
+Dark Force   None --> +Poison (I may change its SE at some point)
+Dark Force   61PWR --> 79PWR (PWR increase)
-Dark Force   2MP --> 5MP (PWR went up plus extra effect, so Cost should go up)
+Dispel Magic   4MP --> 2MP (It only gets rid of buff/sabers/barriers)

As you can see, Freeze has become weaker.  And I changed Lunar Magic to something more... stable and useful.

If Black Rabite sprite is not an option, then how about the small Snowman sprite?  Regular Snowman is a bit boring.  I heard that sprite is available, according to a certain website.

Ahh, so that's what those two "unused" status effects do.  Now that I think about it, you mentioned it before.  And yes, you're right about Moogled SE.  It's too bad enemies are immune to it.  I'm looking forward to how you change that.  But yeah, Silence (disables casting) wouldn't be very useful on regular enemies.  They rarely cast anyways.  Maybe Fear only disables melee?  I wanted to give a cool status effect to Dark Force.  So far, I'm giving it Poison.  And Confuse changes the target to go in the opposite direction of control (which is... unique, since the enemies tend to run away).  I used to hate Nemesis Owl for that.

Perhaps Mire can be changed into Fear (with SE of limiting attacks rather than movement).  And keep the Stone Saber.  If you take away the Stone Saber, then nothing in the player spell pool can petrify anyone.  And adding petrify to an attack spell seems... dangerous, both to the enemies and players (I tried putting Petrify to Lava Wave, and Fire Gigas 1HKOed my entire party).  And perhaps add Fear to Dark Force, since that spell can use some update (players almost never use that spell, since many tough enemies are Shade element).

Wow, I like how you're thinking about making Revive differently.  I especially like how it may ignore Defense.  Btw, how do you make an attack spell ignore Defense?  I now Cure Water does that, but I couldn't figure it out.  Also, when Revive hits a regular non-undead enemies, it tends to heal a fixed amount.  How did you do that?  I kinda want to play around with Fixed damage output.

Thank you for working on my request of making Burst hurt the user.  I wanted to make Burst do a fixed damage to the caster, since the spell animation will still be active after Popoi finishes casting it (if it was percentage, then you'd have no idea how much damage it would do to the victim, due to its M.Def stat).  But now that I think about it, a percentage of caster's Max HP sounds better (I'm thinking 10%).    At the cost of 0 MP.  That'll make Burst always available -- but again, it hurts the user (Popoi would fall back after using the spell).

Truly, thank you for considering my suggestions.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 21, 2019, 09:50:54 pm
@Queue  If I'm not mistaken, Confuse status in Vanilla definitely stops monsters/characters from casting Spells, making it like the Silence status in the Final Fantasy series.  The bit I have not yet confirmed, is whether it also affects monster AI-movement.  If it did, would it be the same thing as reversing player controls?  Would they instead move South and attack facing West, when their AI specified North and East, in that order?  I will have a look at that later, and see whether that's the case or not.   :)

By the way, everyone, I forgot to mention something I did in the ZPS file.  I was able to locate the part of Timbo's Relocalized patch that changes the Ring Menu icon for Burst, from an orange flare effect to a bluish-green one, and copy it to another section of the ZPS.  Allowing it to work without having to use Relocalized.  I felt pretty good after doing that, but given that I was not the one who discovered the unused differently-colored icon, I'm not really that clever for doing this.

It's just another "tweak" to something that I like.  That icon looks cooool... :laugh:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: hmsong on September 21, 2019, 10:59:06 pm
Quote
@Queue  If I'm not mistaken, Confuse status in Vanilla definitely stops monsters from casting Spells, making it like the Silence status in the Final Fantasy series.

Wuw!  I did not know that.  I tested it myself (by casting silence on Walled enemies), and what do you know, you're right!  Holy crap.  I did not know that.  I know for certain that it makes the AI go in the opposite direction of their intended target.  Well, enemies typically come towards me, but they ran away.

@zoogremlin

That's awesome.  Can you also find the code that would make Revive target not green?  At least, after Herbal Boost patch is applied?  It's kinda weird for Revive in Luna to cast green spell.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190919
Post by: kethinov on September 22, 2019, 01:21:48 am
- Fixed Herbal Boost causing Wall bosses to cast Herbal Boost instead of Revivifier

Was this a bug in your port of Herbal Boost, or in my original code?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 22, 2019, 01:40:28 am
@hmsong  It is rather odd that Revivifier, when made into a Luna spell, still puts a green aura on the target as part of its animation.  I have not read much in documentation about how graphical effects are coded.  At the moment, the documentation I've got is what I read to find out a particular section of code, and if that section has been extensively Commented (explained next to the code sector), then I know what its for.  I'll have a look now and see if the spell animations are Commented like that.   :)

Not that the spell being green is a bug in the game or anything, but yeah.  It would be nice to change it if possible.  I just don't know how data is written and interpreted to display graphics on a screen.  If I knew everything about that, I would be able to alter the bit that draws red bars on the Status menu screen, and make the bars shorter.  Back soon when I can answer these questions...  8)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: Mr X on September 22, 2019, 02:28:03 am
Queue hmmm you are right, I would refrain using elemental resistance equipment on the begnning portion up until probably you first arrive in Kakara. Kakara, Ice Contient starting on that.

While before  have simply some equipment offer status imunity, cobra barcelets offer anti poison resistence - great for jaberwocky especially now since poison is powered up (in turbo Jaber is a joke even at double hp I took him out in like 1 minute or something he barely reacts, which seems to be a problem with the enemies in general in the game).

Similar solution for fire gigas engulf status from lava wave. Give an existing ring engulfment resistance, problem solved imo. And useful for Spikey too, the two of then are the most difficult bosses at that point in the game.

Existing early game ring effects up until great viper:

Power wrist - boosts atk
Cobra bracelet - prevents poisoning
Wolf's band - boosts your agi

Possible ideas for the rings at that point of the game:

Wristband- reduces fire damage, good vs fire gigas, only real trouble you will have is vs dooms wall if they cast freeze. No big deal tho imo, it just means one party member needs more healing, you are stronger overall by that point.

Elbow pad - Prevents engulfment - great to equip that on the girl for the fire gigas fight so she heals you back up.

Both of the above can be bought before the spikey/gigas fight.

Quill cap - prevents confusion?
Steel Cap - prevents pigmying?

There are a lot of options to make equipment special. Prevent a certain stat down, cut some type of damage in half, elemental resistance, boost your power (physic or magic atk) a lot in exchange for def, high def and/or magic def but drains your hp ovee time, boost elemental bonus you get from saber magic upon equiping some piece, faster charging etc. Not everything may be implemented, not all of them may fit this game, but just throwing them out there for reference. I've seen similar ideas be done right tho and balanced out in snd has taken that to the next level.

(If you are a fan of sd3 but being a bugy mess of a game, a hack called Sin of Mana fixes everything that was intended to work and more about it).



As for the Revive colors, it's trivial tbh and just dont try to make much sense of it, just like the "Moon elemental" in general. Even wood doesnt make much sense with what it is capable to do, boosting your strength, reflect, "exploding inner energy" since when were trees capable of doing that? Burst having a higher power than explode, an element of flames, pure destruction? Darkness, freaking void and gravity being slightly inferior to... a tree? Especially considering the mana magic coming from a tree?

Just don't try to make much sense of these two elementals and leave them colored as they are. Lol
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190919
Post by: Queue on September 22, 2019, 02:36:39 am
Was this a bug in your port of Herbal Boost, or in my original code?
Unless I'm blind this one was on your side of things; it was a one-byte change to alter which spell the Wall bosses cast, so they use the altered number for Revivifier:
Code: [Select]
' enemy AI fixups '[WallFamily_CastRevivifier]
@OFF $C27DB9
'LDA #21 ' old spell number
LDA #1D ' new spell number
So, 0x027DBA from 0x21 to 0x1D.

I changed 6 other bytes: a trivial "correctness" issue with the Elemental Summon animations (the first two bytes of each spell data block, so 0x1031E0 and 0x1032E0, since there's a tiny difference between the Luna and Dryad summon animations, you had copied the Dryad animation along with the other data onto what was now a Luna spell, and vice versa); and likewise the "element" value for both spells (which truly has no effect) so that the Luna Revififier was Luna element and Dryad Herbal Boost was Dryad element.

Other replies tomorrow, long day.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 22, 2019, 03:52:09 am
@hmsong  Well guys, I'm closer to understanding how the game engine draws spell animation graphics/palettes.  What I need to change, so the target of Revivifier gets a yellow aura instead of a green one, is not yet crystal-clear though.  That's the short of it.  Do you want to know the long version?    :-\
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: hmsong on September 22, 2019, 04:39:25 am
@zoolgremlin

Oh my.  You are good at figuring out stuff.  If possible, can you make a document (similar to all other documents) about the color changing?  And if possible, not just the victim color, but also the spell graphic/color switching?  I want to move around the spells (ex: switch Speed Up with Fire Bouquet).  I can change the power, cost, target, element, etc (mostly thanks to Queue for teaching me how), but I don't know how to move around the graphic, sound, color, name, etc.

I took a look at Herbal Boost patch and Shadow Saber to figure it out, but I'm so lost.

Speaking of which, have you figured out the 2nd and 3rd bytes of Monster Drop Table?  I'd love to know.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 22, 2019, 05:09:06 am
@hmsong  In the Magic Tables document, most of the data there is used to define palettes and frame data for all 42 spells, at least if I understand kethinov's Herbal Boost patch correctly.  Only the last 8 bytes of a 4-address 16-offset Block are used for changing things like Spell Power, Spell Accuracy, Element, MP Cost, and a few other things.

At the moment, the document only says:

-     animation/graphics for Elemental sprite
-     bytes 0x08-17 = animation/graphics for low-level spell
-     bytes 0x18-27 = animation/graphics for mid-level spell
-     bytes 0x28-37 = animation/graphics for high-level spell

Where it says all of that is at least part of what needs to be shifted around in blocks of data, in order to, eg. put the tangling-vines of Speed Down in another slot, so that casting a Salamando spell would show the tangling-vines animation, instead of the fast bursts of flame whirling around clockwise and anti-clockwise.  It is not the complete list of things to swap, but that data is included in what would need to change.

From what I know about software, it has always been the case that drawing stuff on a screen ("graphics", in other words), takes up more raw data and opcodes than anything else a program (like a video game) does.  Even added up together.  The implication is that more complex code is needed to link the use of that data up, in every way necessary, to draw what a video game looks like when you play it.



I think it would be nice for the Magic Tables document (or a separate one for Graphics) to eventually have all of that explained in it.  I would, eg. give Energy Absorb, including its animation, to Shade instead of Undine.  Because draining the lifeforce of another living creature sounds a lot more like... Evil magic, than Water magic.  Of course, none of Shade's spells would fit into the Water Element either.  So a straight swap between two spells wouldn't make any more sense, in that example.

All of what you want to do is possible.  Especially since Turbo expands the ROM-space to 4MB, instead of the piddling 2MB Vanilla had.  With the graphics, it'll just take... quiiiite a while to prove everything it would take to change those.

I can't give an estimate of how much time it would take.  But we'll all be able to do it... someday.   :)

And no, unfortunately not yet for the two unknown bytes in the Drop table.  Got stuck with somebody who talked endlessly to me last night, and NOTHING got done with the tables.  It was almost like listening to "The Song That Doesn't End"!  Jeeeezuuuus Chriiiist.  It's still on the cards to check that, though.   :banghead:



I've loved this game since I was a teenager, almost like it was my first crush!  It wasn't, but anyway... that's the reason I'm looking into this sort of thing.  I presume it's also why other members like Queue, kethinov and yourself do this sort of thing.  Great place to be, this forum.  Really great...  8)

When it comes to figuring stuff out, sometimes somebody else got there before me, and sometimes they were on the right track, but didn't have the full picture, or the completely accurate one, etc...  in the case of SoM, mostly it's the former.  More generally, sometimes I'm able to add to what is already known.  Not always, though... i-it depends.



@Mr. X  I agree when you say that Luna and Dryad are the two oddball Elements of the game, and the whole World of Mana series.  I reeeeally don't know what Square's logic was, if they even know what "logic" is, but the best way I've come up with to explain Luna and Dryad being opposing Elements, is this:

-     Cosmic forces (from up amongst the stars, distant and enchanting).  From beyond the bright blue sky of the day, mysterious and sometimes miraculous things reside.  Things that... cannot be fully explained, or not yet.  The Moon was once, in real-life mythology, believed to cause insanity in people.  During it's "full" phase.  EDIT:  Also, even now people are known to joke/sing/talk seriously about "wishing upon a star", in the hopes of good fortune.  Isn't that what Disney once raved on about in Pinocchio?  Pretty sure of it...

VERSUS

-     Terrestrial forces, residing on a planet that can sustain life as we know it.  With trees, fish, birds, that strange Pumpkin that blows up in y'face <BOOM!>, some yellow fluffy thing with a single tooth that bites, all sorts.  Within all life there is the power of Mana, whether that term means Magic Energy, or Life Energy, not sure.  The Mana Tree is possibly meant to represent the "Mother of All Life" on the Mana World, whatever it's called.  Sorta makes a change from Daenerys Targaryen being the "Mother of All Dragons", which only bring Death and Calamity to Westeros!  Yeesh... that's kinda dangerous, you know?

Not much of an explanation, but... that's what I've got.  If the Elements are useful, then we will use them when possible.  That at least is logical...  ;D



@Queue  Your idea about making each type of equipment specialize in granting an additional effect, besides Defence/MagDef, sounds like great stuff to me.   :thumbsup:



Okay!  Back to my "investigation" for a while...  :laugh:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: Mr X on September 22, 2019, 07:06:03 am
zoolgremlin yeah it's probably something along those lines.

And yes, Secret of Mana was one of those classic games I grew up with playing as a kid. That's why I am following this thread regularly in the first place. This is all just for fun at the end of the day, that's important.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 22, 2019, 07:19:58 am
Forgot to mention that Light and Darkness actually symbolize Good vs Evil, angelic vs demonic forces, basically.  Nothing to do with literal light and shadow (and not black holes either, I don't think).  That may not be as well-known as you'd think, but interestingly the Remake gives Light Saber an altered name... Holy Saber.  It also has Shade explain that he was once the King of Mavolia, aka. the Underworld.  Which, even in the Vanilla game, is implied to contain devilish, wicked, or unnatural things.  Like the walking dead, necromancers (Dark Lich/Thanatos), little horned grinning things with toy pitchforks (that is, they look like toys), and so on.  EDIT:  Seiken Densetsu 3, aka. Trials of Mana, is better at making this point clear, in the game cutscenes themselves.  At least in that respect (story, as well as graphics/sound), it doesn't royally suck ass.   :laugh:

So now, what used to be implied in Secret of Mana, is now openly stated.  That's... something, I guess.    ::)

Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: hmsong on September 22, 2019, 07:52:02 am
@zoogremlin

First, thank you for your explanation about the graphics.  I'm not entirely sure how to edit it, but I get where the address location is.  I guess I'll play around with that for a bit.

Second, good news:  I figured out what each of those Monster Drop Table does.  Thanks to Kethinov linking me with the SoM Drop Editor.  They are as follows.

1st:   Probability of dropping a chest (normal: 00~40;   running: 80~C0)
2nd:   1st digit: Agility needed to avoid trap.
   2nd digit: Analysis level needed to defuse trap.
3rd:   Probability of the chest containing rare item (~11% is the highest it gets)
   (Money-Item: 00~38;   Item-Item: 40~78;    Money-Money: 80~B8;    Item-Money: C0~F8)
4th:   Common Item ID (or GP amount of 00~FF)
5th:   Rare Item ID (or GP amount of 00~FF)

Code: [Select]
ID Description
---- --------
00 x
01 Bandana
02 Hair Ribbon
03 Rabite Cap
04 Head Gear
05 Quill Cap
06 Steel Cap
07 Golden Tiara
08 Racoon Cap
09 Quilted Hood
0A Tiger Cap
0B Circlet
0C Ruby Armet
0D Unicorn Helm
0E Dragon Helm
0F Duck Helm
10 Needle Helm
11 Cockatrice Cap
12 Amulet Helm
13 Griffin Helm
14 Faerie Crown
15 x
16 Overalls
17 Kung Fu Suit
18 Midge Robe
19 Chain Vest
1A Spiky Suit
1B Kung Fu Suit
1C Fancy Overalls
1D Chest Guard
1E Golden Vest
1F Ruby Vest
20 Tiger Suit
21 Tiger Bikini
22 Magical Armor
23 Tortoise Mail
24 Flower Suit
25 Battle Suit
26 Vestguard
27 Vampire Cape
28 Power Suit
29 Faerie Cloak
2A x
2B Faerie Ring
2C Elbow Pad
2D Power Wrist
2E Cobra Bracelet
2F Wolfs Band
30 Silver Band
31 Golem Ring
32 Frosty Ring
33 Ivy Amulet
34 Gold Bracelet
35 Shield Ring
36 Lazuri Ring
37 Guardian Ring
38 Gauntlet
39 Ninja Gloves
3A Dragon Ring
3B Watcher Ring
3C Imps Ring
3D Amulet Ring
3E Wristband
3F x
40 Candy
41 Chocolate
42 Royal Jam
43 Faerie Walnut
44 Medical Herb
45 Cup Of Wishes
46 Magic Rope
47 Flammie Drum
48 Moogle Belt
49 Midget Mallet
4A Barrel
4B~7F x
80 Glove Orb
81 Sword Orb
82 Axe Orb
83 Spear Orb
84 Whip Orb
85 Bow Orb
86 Boomerang Orb
87 Javelin Orb

Feel free to include this info your Monster Drop Table document.  I'm pretty sure that most of 4C~7F are orbs (ex: 3rd Axe Orb, 4th Sword Orb, etc).  Haven't tested them yet.

September 22, 2019, 08:59:54 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
For SoM Drop Editor, does anyone know what the red circled things do? (bottom-right corner)  I know it changes the 3rd byte, but I have no idea what it actually does.  Does it double the chances?  Halves the chances?  I don't get it.

https://ibb.co/1KZ6H0D
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 22, 2019, 09:14:02 am
hmsong  I'll reply first to the Drop Table bit, since that's shorter.  Soooo... <deep breath>

GENIUS!  I will add that to the table now, and give you credit for it at the top and next to the explanation further down.  Thanks!



About the graphics, the change we want to make to Revivifier is partially located somewhere else in Bank 0x10 (16 in decimal).  Here's a list of addresses that are of interest graphics-wise:

001008:40-4F   A1 0A 5E 09 8E 54 3D 54 3D CD 54 40 20 40 20 00  'Placeholder for Red Glowing effect on a spell's current target/s
001008:50-5F   F1 0A 80 09 8C 54 3D 54 3D CD 54 40 20 40 20 00  'Placeholder for Blue Glowing effect on a spell's current target/s
001008:60-6F   06 0B 90 09 8C 54 3D 54 3D CD 54 40 20 40 20 00  'Placeholder for Green Glowing effect on a spell's current target/s
001008:70-7F   1E 0B A0 09 8E 54 3D 54 3D CD 54 40 20 40 20 00  'Placeholder for Yellow Glowing effect on a spell's current target/s
001008:80-8F   64 1D 10 0A 8E 28 3C 28 3C CD 54 40 20 40 20 00  'Placeholder for Purple Glowing effect on a spell's current target/s
001008:E0-EF   00 02 00 02 8E CC 37 40 30 CD 54 40 20 40 20 50  'Placeholder for White Glowing effect on a spell's current target/s
001008:F0-FF   00 04 00 04 8E CC 37 40 30 CD 54 40 20 40 20 50  'Placeholder for Black Glowing effect on a spell's current target/s

Now you may well ask the question, "What the s*** does he mean by that!?"  (Not necessarily in those exact words, haha.   ;D)  Well... at some point in the process of a spell being cast, the game program needs to jump to one of these seven addresses.  It needs the data here to set the colours needed to make the spell target glow.  Which one they need depends on the spell, and not all spells in the same Element domain use the same palette for the glowy aura.  Eg. Air Blast uses the Yellow glow, Thunderbolt the Purple one, but they are both Air spells.  Same Element, different colors, basically.

That's part of what we want to know.  The bit I don't know just yet, is where the bit of code is that directs any particular spell, to the Vanilla "Glowing" effect used for it.  When we do, we could try changing Revivifier's pointer value to pick the Yellow one.

I believe that's the only thing we're missing.  Digging through someone else's program is rather like... I dunno, Indiana Jones trying to find El Dorado or the Holy Grail.  Or a real archaelogy site where they literally dig for buried ancient artefacts.  Indy is about to strike it lucky, he just needs to kick one more Nazi in the nutsack!  So there you go...  :laugh:



By the way, the documentation that someone gave me regarding this game's disassembly... is missing the code layout and 'Comments, for a few Banks.  Er... specifically:

-   Banks 0x0016-17 (22 & 23 in decimal)
AND
-   Banks 0x001D-1F (30, 31 & 32 in decimal)

I could speculate about the reasons for that, but right now it may not matter.  Maybe that was all the person who gave them to me had as well?  Who's to say?

Thanks again!  Way past  8)!



UPDATE: 

The Monster Drop Value Data Table is now updated with the new info.  So once again, the Link to the folder on Google Drive, containing my documents so far:

Secret of Mana Information (Vanilla) (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1fAVv9BMl7N9wPnPzpCkSDkVYp0le1BkU)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: Mr X on September 22, 2019, 02:38:18 pm
Queue I tried to trigger those random messages that happened when opening the treasures from the eye spy and kid goblin but now they show the text just fine, my guess is that because back then the characters were underleveled/low agility whatever, it may have tried to trigger a trap but it couldn't? Just a wild guess no idea what could cause something like that.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 22, 2019, 04:21:59 pm
@Queue  Sorry to take up your time, I'd just like to ask one question (I think...   :laugh:).  Is the ZPS custom script used for Turbo an object-oriented programming language?  I'm not entirely sure, but reading through the ZPS Turbo file, I wonder if maybe a patch/mod won't work, unless it's placed within the correct class of virtual files to execute.  As well as in the exact right place somewhere in the file, no higher, no lower than that.

Whenever I placed new code into the file, in all but one case (out of 4-5 so far), I got an error message from ZPS Patcher.  From that point, the file would not open up in the Patcher menu until I removed the added code, or loaded a backup.

Of course, as we know, Comments (in the format '(skip over this little tantrum of mine)...
Spoiler:
I'm really trying not to bash the original devs of this game, for making it difficult to understand their arbitrary and wildly-meandering code, leaving in lots of worthless bull**** and whatever else, but it's not easy you know.  :P)

...are always skipped over.  That, at least, doesn't break the file.   ::)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: Queue on September 22, 2019, 05:42:03 pm
hmsong, changing the sword orb snowman even into the tiny snowman would probably be as complicated as changing him into a rabite. So, same consideration: if I find time or interest I may play with it, but in the short term at least it's functional.

Sorta the same goes for status effects: I think my goal will be to make moogle status function on enemies, as it's effectively unused, and Mired is functioning and was a lot of work, so would rather not just toss that out.

I got something working for Burst for the next release for you to try out. Preliminary version has it doing 1/8 (~12.5%) of the sprite's health, since it's 100 times easier to divide by 8 than by 10.

Basically, every detrimental spell calls a helper function to check for enemy elemental weakness, while beneficial spells just set weakness to maximum. Previous version of Turn Undead I was redirecting to the basic SSE.Func.Detrimental.Damage function which checks elemental weakness, next release it will be jumping straight to SSE.Func.Helper.Apply.Damage which assumes weakness tests and power calculations already happened. To add unmitigated damage to other spells requires writing more spell functions.

Thank you for relaying the drop tables info. As for the bottom right checkboxes, those bits may literally do nothing and the checkboxes are there to be thorough (so that if someone modified the game to use those bits, that editor would be able to set or clear them).



Mr X, thanks, that was enough of a clue to get me on the right track, I found the issue. Optimization mistake in Diverse_Chest_Traps meant a table lookup could get a garbage value when trying to select a random trap. I fell victim to TYA and TAY not having perfectly symmetrical behavior. More accurately, 8-bit/16-bit A register not having symmetrical behavior to 8-bit/16-bit X/Y registers.



zoolgremlin, search the Turbo ZPS for
Code: [Select]
'@OFF $D02EE0it has some notes on the spell data block format (a little cryptic, but more than nothing). The first 8 bytes are separate from the next 0x30 bytes, which are separate for the last 8 bytes (which are the spell's stats).

Short answer to the object-oriented programming question: no.

Long answer: object-oriented programming is primarily a concept. Some programming languages are designed with that concept as a focus of their syntax, so they provide language-level constructs to facilitate organizing code into objects (or even effectively require the code be organized that way). ZPS is an assembly language with extra features added to split the code / data up into virtual files (because in zhaDe's original toolchain, they are actual separate files which he ran through a packaging utility to merge them into one monolithic ZPS file) and to tie some parsing-time text replacements to options in the patcher UI. The language itself has no concept of objects, though you could write object-oriented code using it (this would likely be ill-advised as ZPS isn't really robust enough to let you set up a scheme, usually powerful enough macros in the case of assembly languages, that would excise object-oriented bloat, both size and speed).

I assume you're mistaking ZPS's virtual files for something more complex than they are, like classes and objects, etc. Imagine each line that begins with & and ends with .asm as the start of a file containing code / data, and each line that starts with & and ends with anything except .asm (because everything that's not included with the ASM <> directive is treated the same) as a folder with associated settings (the settings are global constants, dynamically allocated addresses, and what other folders or files are contained within that folder).

For a minimal example, find &DEF.adf, a little below that is FILE <(encode)>, on the line below that put
Code: [Select]
FILE <custom_folder>, then scroll to the end of the ZPS file and put
Code: [Select]
&custom_folder
ASM <custom_file.asm>
&custom_folder\custom_file.asm
@OFF $C00000
RAW FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
This will overwrite the first 16 bytes of the ROM with 0xFF bytes, so don't expect good things from this. Obviously change the contents of custom_file.asm.

Anyway, that should work; if it doesn't overwrite the first 16 bytes of the ROM either I messed up on the example, or...
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 22, 2019, 07:11:25 pm
Quote
@Queue  "I assume you're mistaking ZPS's virtual files for something more complex than they are, like classes and objects, etc."

Yes, I think I must be.  I only thought to ask the question, since I was having a little more trouble putting new assembly code into the ZPS, than I was expecting.  I thought I understood your previous explanation, but that is clearly... not correct.  If you say it's simpler than object language, I'm thinking you would know better than I.

Also, I thought that I had written the correct names for the Virtual Folder/s and File/s.  But no, that is not true either.  If it was, I wouldn't have gotten an error message.  Nor perhaps would I have gotten it, if the contents of the File were incorrect (eg. wrong syntax for 65 assembly).  I'll try again and see...  ::)

Thanks very much for your answer.  As soon as I can add new files to the ZPS and have them consistently work, I'll come back to tell everyone.  If we don't see you again today/tonight, hope you have a good one.   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: hmsong on September 22, 2019, 07:11:53 pm
@zoolgremlin

You're very welcome.  I'm glad I can contribute.  Also, wow.  All those codes just to tweak the target color of spell?  Yikes.  Switching the spells around is going to take forever, esp with my limited knowledge. 

Thanks for another great update on your documents.  My mind is reaching its limits, but I shall continue to try.


@Queue

Oh, I see about the snowman.  Well, I was merely mentioning some options.  I still like your snowman enemy (esp since it has a unique weakness).

I may have come off wrong in terms of suggestion about Fear status.  My apologies.  Mire status is great.  And I would absolutely love it if you can somehow make Moogle status work on the enemy (even if not graphic, but in terms of effects).  I still would like it if Mire made the effected enemies brown (or something), and "moogled" monsters white (or something).  Thanks, and once again, my apologies.

Oohh.  Burst does 12.5%?  Great.  That sounds fantastic, actually (800 * 1/8 = 100).  I would love to try that out.  Really looking forward to it.  I've been wanting to try that for a while, but kinda gave up hope when you said it'd be complicated.  If you can figure out how to make a spell ignore M.Def, or maybe even Wall (similar to how Dispel ignores Wall), that would be even better (it is a self-explosion ability).  That would make that spell more useful too (I know many people would hate the idea of getting damaged... but I just want it so much).  You are truly great.

About the drop table, maybe you're right.  I noticed that vanilla used some of those things.  I just have no idea what they do.

Also, if I make a code that doubles the chances of chest drop rate (04 --> 08, which is the same drop rate of Rabite), would you be willing to upload that for your package?  I shouldn't have any problem with that.

Speaking of treasure chest, you think it's possible for you to make Lunar Magic make the monster drop Treasure Chest into 100%? (temporarily, of course)  Or, at least increase the likelihood of treasure drop rate of that particular victim?  Seems like a neat idea to make Lunar Magic into something unique... and VERY desirable.  You can make it drop only the non-running chest (or only running chest).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 22, 2019, 07:40:27 pm
@hmsong  I guess it would seem like a large amount of data, just to change a color.  But yeah, video games closer to the current year can be (EDIT) 10's of Gigabytes in size.  The SoM Vanilla ROM is 2 MegaBytes, 100's of times less.  EDIT:  Whoops, I don't see any instance of a video game being 100's or 1000's of GigaBytes in size.  Didn't think that through, did I?  Fixed...  :crazy:

With higher resolution textures and backgrounds, more code to calculate collision-detection and create the illusion of depth and perspective in 3D-modelled worlds, between 3D-modelled objects, etc., that's what most of those gigabytes are being used for.  At least, in the last few years.

Everything else like sound, and tables for stats (Strength, Intelligence, etc.), and calculating AttackPower when using a big stick... all added up together it's not as much as that.  Not to my knowledge... (True HD is 1920x1080 pixels on your screen, meaning it takes 2,073,600 little "dots" to draw an image on a True HD monitor or digital TV.  The 3rd Dimension multiplies the data needed to define virtual space, and calculate relative positions, in a similiar fashion.  Or the same one?  Hmmmm...   :-\)

(EDIT:  See Queue's response to this, for a more substantial rundown.  He's more knowledgable about programming and data storage, than I am.  I'll... readily admit that.   :laugh:

But the pointer value that directs the SNES hardware/emulator to that address would be, according to the others I've seen, 2 Bytes.  The difference in proportion is, err... quite significant <whew>.

Don't worry if it's taking time to absorb all of this, I see it as a hobby with a bit of volunteer work thrown in.  Take it at your own pace, it's all good...

Cheers!   :beer:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: kethinov on September 23, 2019, 01:16:42 am
Btw, I editted my Change Form possible monsters.  All different type (except one), and all different elements.  And all pre-Empire.  And changed some types.  And increased Mimic drop to 100%.

Here is another list worth considering. Everything on the list (except the Rabite) spawns other monsters, some of them rare/missable:

1. Rabite (gotta keep the Rabite on the list! It matches the spell picture!  ;))
2. Goblin (spawns Ma Goblins; these stop spawning by the end of the game without my "No Missable Monsters" hack)
3. Green Drop (spawns Green Drops)
4. Blue Drop (spawns Blue Drops)
5. Red Drop (spawns Red Drops; these stop spawning by the end of the game without my "No Missable Monsters" hack)
6. Emberman (spawns Emberman; these stop spawning by the end of the game without my "No Missable Monsters" hack)
7. Basilisk (spawns Eggatrice; you can find exactly one Basilisk in the Mana Fortress, so they're not missable, but pretty rare so having another way to spawn them could be fun)
8. Mad Mallard (spawns Pumpkin Bombs; Pumpkin Bombs already exist as a "Change Form" monster, so spawning the monster that spawns them seems like a clever enhancement)

The main benefit of this arrangement is it allows "Change Form" to be used as a grinding spell. You can go somewhere and easily make monsters that can make more monsters. This is useful for spell grinding, weapon grinding, and even a bit of level grinding if you acquire Luna early and spawn a bunch of Emberman or Basilisks (to make Eggatrices). This should make the spell more useful without making it too OP.

I tried some wackier stuff like the Shadow Xs, Tomato Man, and a few other things, but it appears "Change Form" can't be used to make those monsters, so this was the most balanced list I could come up with given the priorities being 1. only picking monsters that can spawn other monsters plus 2. leaving the Rabite entry in place because modifying that would be sacrilege.

Also, as you noted, it is not possible (at least not without altering the "Change Form" spell definition in a fairly work-intensive way) to make "Change Form" inherit the chest spawn rate of the new enemy while preserving the chest items of the original enemy. That is a neat idea though. I'm kinda sad it would be a hassle to implement.

Download "Multiplicative Change Form" here: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4679/
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: hmsong on September 23, 2019, 02:28:14 am
@kethinov

Ahh, I see.  I disliked the spawning monsters, because they're so annoying (prevents other nearby monsters from spawning), but you make a fair point, esp for magic grinding.  Basilisk seems a bit tough, since that guy is one of the high-level monsters (Change Form inherits everything, except HP/MP, so it'll do a lot of damage against you, and you won't be able to hurt it much).  Also, I feel like National Scar (spawns Imp) should replace one of the monsters (Green Drop?).  But National Scar is also pretty tough (maybe even tougher than Basilisk).

As I was playing around with Change Form, I found out which monsters you CANNOT transform to:
- All Eye Spys
- All Werewolfs
- All Magic Swords
- All Tomato Mans
- All Kimono Birds
- All Ghosts (not Gases)
- All Ninjas
- All Fierce Heads
- Polter Chair, Chess Knight, Spider Legs
- Armored Man, Terminator (Dark Knight works)
- Shape Shifter (other slimes work), Gremlin (Imp works), Heck Hound (other dogs work)

Here's my current list of monster (all different types and elements):
0x0E   Goblin Guard   Human      Earth <- Notice that I purposely avoided Goblin Lord to avoid spawning.
0x0F   Dark Funk   Gas/Ghost   Fire
0x10   Crawler      Insect/Metal   Dryad
0x12   Zombie      Undead/Demon   Dark
0x15   Nemesis Owl   Animal/Bird   Air
0x2D   Mimic Box   Plant/Fish   Luna <- Changed this to Dragon, since there's no normal Dragon type monsters.
0x33   Weepy Eye   Plant/Fish   Light
0x34   Shellblast   Slime/Lizard   Water

Here's another list of possible monsters (non-elemental, not even Luna/Dryad):
0x00   Rabite (or Silktail)
0x03   Chobin Hood (or Robin Foot)
0x08   Green Drop
0x0A   Blat
0x18   Steamed Crab
0x1B   Howler
0x23   Mystic Book
0x25   Mad Mallard

And here's my most unique one (1/8 chance that you get a tough enemy):
0x00   Rabite
0x00   Rabite
0x00   Rabite
0x00   Rabite
0x00   Rabite
0x00   Rabite
0x00   Rabite
0x3C   Needlion (this guy can be replaced with someone else though)

I thank you for your list.  I'm gonna ponder more, since it's a good list too (I'm replacing Rabite with Nation Scar though).

Indeed, I bet it's crazy complicated to inherit the changed monster's drop rate, while preserving the original drop items.  If you can somehow manage this, you'd pretty much be SoM Hack god.

Btw, have you checked your Later Midge Mallet patch?  I think I mentioned that it applies Early Midge Mallet.  At least, as a result (I don't know if the codes are different).  Can you check?

Heh.  I tried to have Shadow X1~3 drop the missing Glove/Axe orb... I thought they were treated like the normal enemies... I was wrong.  Damn.  How the hell am I gonna get the missing Orbs in Ancient City/Grand Palace? (Queue made a patch to farm the final Sword orb).  The only thing I can do is wait and hope (I know you mentioned that you may create a patch for the missing orbs).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: Mr X on September 23, 2019, 05:22:00 am
I find the idea more unique Mimic box to be included in change form, with a 100% chest drop, it makes the spell more useful if you want to get certain equipment from monsters.

Of course that is if you manage to change your enemy into a mimic box, hence that's the downside of it.

While the enemies version of change form possibly turning your characters small or moogle.



As for making Lunar Magic more useful, going of the idea proposed by hmsong have two versions of it one for the enemies, other for the Sprite

Sprite's version - inflicts randomly one of the following statuses: transform (wont work on bosses), or all stat down on enemies, or all stat up on allies, or small amount of heal

NPC version - inflict one of the following: moogle+small on all your characters, or all stat up on own self, or all stat down on all your characters, or heals 999 hp to self.

I think this should be more or less fair enough.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 23, 2019, 11:25:45 am
@Queue  Finally.  FINALLY got new script to work without issues, in the ZPS.  Thank you so much for your patience, I will just put new entries in at the bottom, as you have described.  Because it just... works.  That's all I wanted for myself, in the short term anyway.

EDIT:  Had to Delete a lot of lines that I'm no longer sure were true...  :-\

Will come back later, when I have something of greater significance to say.  Cheers...  :beer:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: kethinov on September 23, 2019, 08:02:55 pm
I put up a new hack that makes "Lunar Magic" useful and deconflicts my "More Useful Evil Gate" hack with Queue's shadow saber. Now you can have both the shadow saber and a devastating gravity attack to use on bosses.

In short, I've moved the boss-afflicting gravity attack from "Evil Gate" to "Lunar Magic" while preserving Lunar Magic's original behavior when it is cast on something other than a boss.

This should make my "Lunar Magic" enhancement broadly compatible with the other enhancements others in this thread have been discussing because my code injection which forks the "Lunar Magic" code if the monster is a boss occurs before the random "Lunar Magic" effects are selected, so it should be possible to combine this "Lunar Magic" enhancement with the others proposed here.

Download "Lunar Magic Boss Gravity Attack" here: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4680/
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: hmsong on September 23, 2019, 09:24:05 pm
@Queue

These are some things I noticed while playing.

1. Nothing is weak to Luna nor Dryad spells.  Some enemies resist those spells (ex: Mega Crawler resists Burst spell), but they are not effective against the "opposite element" enemies (ex: Burst is not particularly strong against Marmablue, which is Luna element -- tested by making Gem Missile's PWR to 100, and it did the same damage).

2. Sabers don't seem to do any extra damage on non-strong/weak element enemies.  On [Saber_Elemental_Damage] patch description, it specifically says:
Quote
Note: Damage is always increased a little with a magic saber.
Could you please check?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: lexluthermiester on September 23, 2019, 09:27:03 pm
I put up a new hack that makes "Lunar Magic" useful and deconflicts my "More Useful Evil Gate" hack with Queue's shadow saber. Now you can have both the shadow saber and a devastating gravity attack to use on bosses.

In short, I've moved the boss-afflicting gravity attack from "Evil Gate" to "Lunar Magic" while preserving Lunar Magic's original behavior when it is cast on something other than a boss.

This should make my "Lunar Magic" enhancement broadly compatible with the other enhancements others in this thread have been discussing because my code injection which forks the "Lunar Magic" code if the monster is a boss occurs before the random "Lunar Magic" effects are selected, so it should be possible to combine this "Lunar Magic" enhancement with the others proposed here.
This sounds fun! I'm going to give it a try. Will this be worked into the SOMTurbo Utility?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: kethinov on September 23, 2019, 09:27:57 pm
Until it is, you can just apply it to a ROM generated by Turbo and it should work fine.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: hmsong on September 23, 2019, 09:37:07 pm
@kethinov

Awesome.  I was really unsatisfied with Luna Magic (I made the spell lower all of target's stats, but even that was so... boring).  Making it do weird things against the normal enemies, while doing gravity damage on the bosses is brilliant.  Maybe you can make it do the Evil Gate animation/sound too, only on the bosses (although I suspect that'll probably be impossible).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: kethinov on September 23, 2019, 09:46:51 pm
I'm not quite sure how to do that. I suppose we'd have to add some kind of check in the code that selects the animation (which is in a totally different place from the spell definition code which applies the effects) to check if the target is a boss and apply a different animation if so, exclusively for the Lunar Magic spell. My guess is it would be a decent amount of work, but I haven't looked into it, so who knows.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: hmsong on September 23, 2019, 10:27:41 pm
Does anyone know where to what the address is for Shape Shifter's possible monster?  I want to play around with that.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: kethinov on September 23, 2019, 11:00:16 pm
Yes, I looked into that once. I believe they are located here:

D0/9CF3: 2D ; mimic box
D0/9CFB: 00 ; rabite
D0/9D03: 40 ; eggplant man
D0/9D0B: 41 ; captain duck
D0/9D10: 35 ; beast zombie

I haven't tested altering those values, but I'm pretty sure that's what controls what Shape Shifter spawns.

I looked into it because I was curious if there might be an easy way to make it so he could spawn literally any monster, but I never completed the project in part because I discovered his AI whitelists those 5 monsters similar to how "Change Form" whitelists things, so rewriting the AI to spawn a larger set of possible monsters would take a bit of doing. I'm sure it could be done though, I just haven't gotten around to making the attempt.

But if you want to alter the whitelist of 5 to some other 5, that should be relatively straightforward and those should be the spots you need.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190920
Post by: hmsong on September 23, 2019, 11:29:52 pm
@kethinov

Thank you.  My god, you, Queue, and zoolgremlin seem to have so much knowledge.  Incredible.

I'm gonna redo the monster list, and NOT include Eggplant Man.  That dude can be farmed for early Needle Helm and Watcher Ring.

September 23, 2019, 11:41:47 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
@zoolgremlin

I took a look at your updated Monster Drop Table.  I think you gave me WAY more credit that I deserve.  While it's true that I discovered what each of those bytes do, I didn't know about such fine detail.  It is you who deserve the most credit.

In any case, awesome.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190908
Post by: kethinov on September 24, 2019, 12:00:16 am
Most likely the chest issue in the Grand Palace you mention is due to the 3 enemy limit. Chests are an NPC, and in combat areas, the NPC limit is 3 (9 in non-combat areas like towns, which is primarily why towns have bad framerate). This is part of why I have Kethinov's Gaia's Navel chest off by default.

Can you explain this further?

Either:

1. You walk over there and the chest is already there, or

2. You walk over there and the chest isn't there. Clearing some monsters and then coming back causes the chest to spawn.

The fact that the chest appears intermittently is not something I consider a bug in that hack, as it is common for chests placed in combat zones to sometimes appear and sometimes not depending on how many monsters are around when you approach the spawn spot due to the 3 monster limit you mentioned.

Is there a bug I'm overlooking?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: Queue on September 24, 2019, 12:19:40 am
Version 2019-09-23:
https://ufile.io/icyp4s4u (https://ufile.io/icyp4s4u)

Changes:
- Minor feature addition to ZPS Patcher, see note below
- Implemented Lunar_Magic_-_Celestial_Cascade; large changes to behavior based on mixture of suggestions, 3 instead of 8 random effects, all useful and offensive instead of the vanilla mess (its code needs to be optimized but wanted to get something out for testing)
- Implemented Burst_-_Health_Cost; removes mana cost and gives it 1/8 max health cost instead
- Implemented Lunar_Magic_-_Mana_Cost_Reduction; halves mana cost from 8 to 4, arguably fair for vanilla or modified Lunar Magic
- Changed Moon_Energy_-_Mana_Cost_Reduction to be Off by default
- Overhauled Turn Undead; can now damage bosses, ignores enemy's resistances, should now be bug free when healing enemies
- Fixed bug in Lunar Magic (standard, not the new variant) reimplementation in SSE
- Fixed bug in Day_Night_Cycle (related to sleeping in an inn)
- Fixed bug in Diverse_Chest_Traps (random traps generally messed up)
- Fixed bug in Audio\Different_Fortress_Boss_Music Relocalized compatibility fixup (this was entirely on my side and had been there for a while, result was likely no special music during Dread Slime fight)

Technical Changes:
- Bumped ZPS Patcher version from V0.18++ to V0.18+++
- Added optional debug output to ZPS Patcher; near the top of the ZPS file, under "[Options]" on line 8, add DEBUG (can be below or above FALSE). Do not change or remove the "FALSE" option. Upon applying a ZPS patch, a ZPS_Debug.log file will be created. Example:
Code: [Select]
[Options]
FALSE
DEBUG
[EndOptions]

The new debug log helped me catch the Day_Night_Cycle and Different_Fortress_Boss_Music bugs.



Can you explain this further?
While a tiny sample size, the only two times that I observed newbies playing where they had the Gaia's Navel chest on, they both died to the altered monsters, and neither ever saw the chest. Well beyond this small sample size for testing the chest, I've observed that taking the eastern route has been far more common than the narrow western path (apparently not everyone notices that it's an accessible route), so the altered monsters has been the primary sticking point. Anyway, two worst case scenarios (the harder monsters being problematic, and the player not even knowing there was a reward, let alone getting the reward for encountering them) in a short timespan meant I bumped it to off by default in the hopes that those changing patcher options will already know the game well enough to cope.



As has become the usual, will get to replies when I have the chance. Goodnight everybody.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 24, 2019, 12:37:50 am
Quote
@kethinov:  I put up a new hack that makes "Lunar Magic" useful and deconflicts my "More Useful Evil Gate" hack with Queue's shadow saber.

Glad to meet you at last.  Your new hack is quite interesting from a game-mechanic perspective.  I won't go into detail right now, but just to let you know this.  I intend to put reviews for some of your stuff, just been busy with other aspects of analyzing/hacking this game.  I will eventually do that, but I really admire what you've done with your patch series.  Have gotten a loooot of mileage out of the ones I've used.  Great work...  :happy:

Quote
@hmsong:     1. Nothing is weak to Luna nor Dryad spells.  Some enemies resist those spells, but they are not effective against the "opposite element" enemies.
             2. Sabers don't seem to do any extra damage on non-strong/weak element enemies.  On [Saber_Elemental_Damage] patch description, it specifically
                says:  Damage is always increased a little with a magic saber.  Could you please check?[/size]

        1.  Good to see you again.  What you say is correct, in pure Vanilla SoM.  Couple of points to note here...
 
            There are not a whole lot of monsters with the Luna Element, Moon/Star (or the Lumina one, but that's another story).  The Dryad Element (Wood/Mana/Life/dunno!)
            is more frequently used (even on weak stuff like Lullabud) than Luna.  But in Vanilla, some blithering idiot put code in, that forcibly REMOVES weakness to
            Luna (which Dryad monsters should have) AND Dryad (which Luna monsters should have).  Good GODS, Square!  Could you at least PRETEND to think this stuff out,
            before you squirt-fart it all over the world?!  I rather doubt it...

            Just to hammer the point home, for a full understanding this code ONLY removes the weaknesses, NOT the resistances.  What does this mean?  Well,
            basically quite a few monsters will take 1/2 damage from Burst in Vanilla, since quite a few monsters have the Dryad Element.  But Luna in Vanilla has NO
            damage spells, apart from Magic Absorb!  So that means, with only a few Luna monsters, only a few will take 1/2 MP-damage from Magic Absorb.

            See the problem there?  Because I didn't, not until just recently anyway.

            Activate the [Luna_And_Dryad_Weaknesses] option in Turbo to re-enable these weaknesses and keep the resistances, making the Elemental Wheel System 100%
            balanced.  It's a tremendously good patch, my word it is...  :laugh:




        2.  This one I can easily answer.  The algorithm for weapon damage, and ONLY weapon damage, is coded to add a bonus to AttackPower, IF and ONLY IF, a Saber
            is present.  Mana Magic may not count, but the new Shadow Saber would.  The exact formula for SaberBonus doesn't matter right now, but I already know the way to
            make it bigger, if anyone wants that, and will explain it later on.  In a new document on Google Drive, I will put the code that's needed to alter that.

            That's what "Damage is always increased a little with a magic saber" means.  Hope that helps you out...  :thumbsup:




Quote
hmsong:  I took a look at your updated Monster Drop Table.  I think you gave me WAY more credit that I deserve.

Ahaaah, not so!  It was your list that allowed me to reach an extraordinary insight, into the nature of the algorithm that determines Common VS Rare item drops.  I wouldn't have got there otherwise.  Full explanation coming soon, but I don't see why you shouldn't get the credit I have given you.  This is another time where somebody, not just yourself, got to this understanding before I did, so the credit is NOT mine, except for the one extra piece I added.  Which I'm not 100% sure about...

But I already get praised on this forum, it doesn't matter to me if anyone knows about my small additions, if any.  Whether that be inside or outside of the ROMhacking fora.

       (Regrs has an account on here like zhaDe and deflaktor, but he stopped coming on to post after zhaDe's New Gameplay Improvement module was finalized, not sure where deflaktor has been all this time.  If it
       bothers any of them that I credit you partially with the Drop Table info, they can let me know exactly why it does.  Not worrying about it until it comes up.  IF it comes up...)

So, uhhh, you don't have to sell yourself short now.  We're making PROGRESS!  That's all I need to know...  way cool.  8)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190908
Post by: hmsong on September 24, 2019, 12:57:57 am
Can you explain this further?

Either:

1. You walk over there and the chest is already there, or

2. You walk over there and the chest isn't there. Clearing some monsters and then coming back causes the chest to spawn.

The fact that the chest appears intermittently is not something I consider a bug in that hack, as it is common for chests placed in combat zones to sometimes appear and sometimes not depending on how many monsters are around when you approach the spawn spot due to the 3 monster limit you mentioned.

Is there a bug I'm overlooking?

I think this is vanilla bug.  In the Grand Palace where Sword Orb chest is, there are monsters.  It's usually Case 1, but sometimes Case 2 happens.  And sometimes (case 1 or 2), the chest is on the water part of the map near the bridge, meaning, you can't reach it.  So in those cases, you'd have to re-enter the room, and hope that it'll appear on the bridge (it usually works).

I've also seen it being spawned from Heck Hound (probably just randomly spawned where Heck Hound was).
See 6:37 on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBYFElqDDaA

So, maybe you can just move it somewhere (or simply remove the enemies nearby).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 24, 2019, 01:10:08 am
@hmsong:  It is indeed, a Vanilla bug.  Which might possibly happen in other places, but right now I can't recall...  :)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: hmsong on September 24, 2019, 01:11:04 am
Vanilla bug report (maybe?):

In the mountain near Sage Jekt (or whatever his name is), when you enter the mountain, the background is full of trees.  Even when you get all the way to the top, the background is still tree.  However, when you enter the Sage cave and exit, the background is all of sudden sky.  I'm not entirely sure if this was intended or not.  I think Square tried to do Sky background, but screw up somewhere.

September 24, 2019, 01:14:08 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
@zoolgremlin

I tested the Luna/Dryad weakness.  Even after the patch, the enemies are not weak to the opposite element.  Sure, when I do Analyze on the enemy (ex: Marmablue), it says that it is weak to Dryad, but Burst does the same damage as 100PWR Gem Missile.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 24, 2019, 01:20:32 am
@hmsong    Forgive me for asking, but are you sure you're casting Burst on a LUNA-Elemental monster?  Try Marmablue or the Werewolves.  Burst won't do double-damage unless the target has the Luna-Elem flag set.  I was able to do double-damage to a Lullabud with Lunar Magic (converted to be damage-only, so that it would work).  I like Queue's new name for it, my two ideas were Crescent Flash (which won't fit into Lunar Magic's Message Event String, and Crescendo, which does, because I got it to work.  Ah, no matter.   :)

So the patch works.  Even if other aspects of the game don't... still a few of those left.  Yyyyeah, a few.  Well that's my story, and I'm sticking to it!  NOOOOT...!  ::)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: hmsong on September 24, 2019, 01:24:08 am
@zoolgremlin

Yup.  Tested it just now.  Burst on Marmablue.  Just to check that I applied the patch, I did Analysis on Marmablue, and indeed, it says it's weak to Dryad.

See for yourself.  I made my Freeze to 100PWR by:

@OFF $D02C5A
RAW   64

Then, compare to Burst.  They both do about the same damage on Marmablue.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 24, 2019, 01:48:49 am
@hmsong  Hmmm, okay!  In that case... IIIII'm not sure how to answer the question.   :(

I know that the [Luna_And_Dryad_Weaknesses] patch worked for me.  Perhaps somebody else in this thread, who's interested in the project, working on the project, will have an idea about that.  Has anyone else noticed the patch not working for them?  Please let us know if you have some spare time later on... there's no hurry about it, though.  Thank you all in advance if you can do this, no shame if you can't...  :beer:

EDIT:  I've had the idea for renaming Revivifier to Miracle Star, to sort-of account for its new "Turn Undead" function, and make it more obviously related to the Cosmos and its inexplicable nature (wishing to save the dead from imminent death, eg., and finding out it actually works!).  Thaaaat's... not really something anyone NEEDS to do, though.  Just a nice thought I had...

I don't think Miracle Star would fit where Revivifier's Message Text String resides.  But it would fit elsewhere, if it was something anyone wanted to add.   :huh:

@Queue  Many thanks for the latest iteration.  We're seriously lucky to have you here, aaaand... I hope you realize that.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: kethinov on September 24, 2019, 01:57:49 am
- Implemented Lunar_Magic_-_Celestial_Cascade; large changes to behavior based on mixture of suggestions, 3 instead of 8 random effects, all useful and offensive instead of the vanilla mess (its code needs to be optimized but wanted to get something out for testing)
- Implemented Lunar_Magic_-_Mana_Cost_Reduction; halves mana cost from 8 to 4, arguably fair for vanilla or modified Lunar Magic

Man, you are making it hard for me to deconflict our hacks. ;)

I just tested this. Looks like the three effects are:

1. Inflict status effects on target
2. Do damage
3. Transform enemy into a Mimic that always drops a chest(!)

Nice work!

Unfortunately when I overlay my "Lunar Magic Boss Gravity Attack" hack atop this that I released mere hours before you released this, it crashes the game. :(

I think it would be cool to combine our enhancements. Yours against regular monsters, mine against bosses.

Though the MP cost presents a problem. You're taking it in the opposite direction as me, and my gravity attack on bosses is too overpowered to cost less than 10 to 12 MP.

I don't think increasing the cost to 12 MP reduces the utility of your enhancements to Lunar Magic. The main utility is that third feature: guaranteeing a chest. That's such a powerful ability that I think a high magic cost and a 2/3 chance of getting some other effect is worth it.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: hmsong on September 24, 2019, 02:03:33 am
@zoolgremlin

Miracle Star sounds VERY grand.  Way too big name for a 61PWR spell.  Then again, it ignores DEF, so maybe.  I'll need to play around with it.

Wait, so you applied the Weakness patch, and you changed one of the non-Luna spells to 100PWR (or reduced Burst's power to 43 or 61 or something), and then compared the damage they both do to Marmablue?  And they resulted in significant difference?  Assuming the spells had the same power and level.

Huh... weird.

@Queue, could you please check?



September 24, 2019, 02:06:19 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Man, you are making it hard for me to deconflict our hacks. ;)

I just tested this. Looks like the three effects are:

1. Inflict status effects on target
2. Do damage
3. Transform enemy into a Mimic that always drops a chest(!)

WHOA!!!  Really?  Mimic drops the original monster's chest at 100%?  Hot damn!  Gotta check this out.

September 24, 2019, 02:44:52 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Tested:

I LOVE IT!!

Burst does exactly what I want it to do.  Truly excellent. 

But the real show-stealer was Lunar Magic.  That was crazy awesome (it retains the random factor, but it also changes things so that the original enemy drops the chest at 100% time).  I only tested it on the weak enemy, but it did:
1. Causes Balloon + Poison (which is pretty similar to Engulf, but better)
2. Causes Petrify.
3. Does damage (I can't tell how powerful it is, but I assume it's Luna elemental).
4. Changed into Mimic, that drops the original monster's chest.

I feel like there should be All Stat Down (Atk, Def, Acc, Eva), but 5 possibilities may be too much.

Also, can you check if Burst is effective against Marmablue?  It doesn't seem like it.  So either Burst is not Dryad element, or Marmablue is not Luna.  I applied the Luna/Dryad weakness patch too.  Maybe Luna is effective against Dryad, but Dryad has no particular strength on Luna?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 24, 2019, 03:03:01 am
@hmsong  You're very close, I changed Burst's PWR to 108, and left it alone otherwise.  Afterwards I changed Lunar Magic to damage-ONLY, and raised its PWR to 108.  Casting both against a Lullabud, or any Dryad-affiliated monster, caused Lunar Magic to do double-damage, and Burst to do half-damage.  Casting both against a Marmablue, switched around those two effects, exactly as I predicted.

Soooo... hmmmm.  This is very strange, I can't see why [Luna_And_Dryad_Weaknesses] would be working for me, but not for you.  Some other factor is involved, but if we don't know which factor, and we don't know whether anyone else has seen this problem, we can't fix it straightaway.

Sorry about that.  Let's see what Queue and the others have to say, if anything.   :(

On the "bright" side, glad to hear you like the name.  Lemme see if I can fit it in my own module.  Will probably have to put it in unused Vanilla space, like Herbal Boost, Shadow Saber, and whatnot.  That'll take some figuring out... <whew>

@Queue    EDIT: It's occurred to me that Lunar Magic could stay at 8MP, given that it's a lot more favorable to the players, when cast by the Sprite, than it was before.  But kethinov and I may be alone together in thinking that.... hmmmm.  Ah well... <shrug>
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: hmsong on September 24, 2019, 03:58:48 am
@zoolgremlin

Quote
@hmsong  As a matter of fact, I changed Burst's PWR to 108, and left it alone otherwise, then afterwards I changed Lunar Magic to damage-ONLY, and raised its PWR to 108.  Casting both against a Lullabud, or any Dryad-affiliated monster, caused Lunar Magic to do double-damage, and Burst to do half-damage.  Casting both against a Marmablue, switched around those two effects, exactly as I predicted.

Wait, so when you were comparing Luna and Dryad magics (same power and level) to the same enemy (either Luna or Dryad), the effective element did 4 times the ineffective element?  Hmm.

I just checked with the new update, and Burst did regular damage on Marmablue (instead of double).  Sigh.  Something is wrong.

Can anyone else verify?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 24, 2019, 04:18:20 am
EDIT:  You can safely skip past this "Spoilered" text block.  It says nothing at all that forum members don't already know full well.  How embarrassment!  (Deliberate grammatical error...  :laugh:)

Spoiler:
@hmsong  Err, that's correct.  All things in Vanilla Secret of Mana, and some if not all altered versions, if they are affiliated with an Element (because not all of them are, and characters aren't by default), take half the effect from attacks/spells of the same Element as their own, whether the effect is damage, or something else, or both.  They take double the effect from attacks/spells of the opposite Element as their own, again whether damage or otherwise.

That's standard behaviour, in Vanilla, Chocolate, Strawberry, SNOZberry, you name it.  All Elements oppose each other diametrically, in an Elemental Wheel System:

          Undine (WAT)  <--->  Salamando (FIR)
          Gnome  (EAR)  <--->  Sylphid   (SKY)  (aka Djinn)
          Shade  (EVI)  <--->  Lumina    (HLY)  (or Wisp, if you really must...  ::))
AND       Luna   (COS)  <--->  Dryad     (WOD)  (IF and ONLY IF the relevant patch is enabled or otherwise applied)


Imagine those 4 axes on a circle, and uh... you hopefully get a mental "picture" of how Weakness/Resistance works.

Any two Elements not on the same axis, do regular effect against the other, and vice versa.  So that means...

                 Weakness      =  Raise to  200%, both ways
          Resistance    =  Reduce to 050%, also both ways
          Neither/Nor   =  Standard  100%  effect, as calculated before checking for Weak/Resist




Admittedly... I didn't realize that a full explanation might be necessary to explain the Element Wheel (and turns out, it wasn't!).  But that is definitely something I am willing to run-down, hope that clears up at least some of the confusion.
( nope!  That was Queue who did that...  :))

Still scratching my head about the bug you've found, what the hell would cause that?  Hmmmm... :-\
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: hmsong on September 24, 2019, 04:27:45 am
@Queue

I forgot if I asked this, but... when you do the Herbal Boost patch, does the Revive do Luna damage?  I'm looking at the codes, but I don't see anything like that (then again, the code was... complicated, so I may have missed it).  And that would mean that Revive will do Dryad damage... I can't even test this, because there are no undead/evil enemies that are Luna/Dryad element.


@zoolgremlin

Yeah, I know that.  I worded things wrong.  Allow me to rephrase.  What I meant to say was, "So you verified that the effective element did 4 times the ineffective element?"

And you verified it.  Hmm...
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 24, 2019, 04:39:49 am
@hmsong  I did, but that was either last week, or the week before.  It's only been, I think a month and a bit, that I've been... "assisting" with the project.  Ummmm... Something might have changed since then, but with "silly me" being endlessly curious (Can I do it?!  Yes I can.  Does anyone know about this thing?  No?  What a damn shame!), my "investigations" have not returned to that point, just yet.  So I don't know what changed, to have that exact effect you've noticed.   :huh:

I'll look again once I get out of the Underground Palace, having kicked Fire Gigas' ass.   :laugh:

Quote
hmsong:  I can't even test this, because there are no undead/evil enemies that are Luna/Dryad element.

As a matter of fact, Wolf Lord is both, but this is not commonly known.  Even I only found this out, not that long ago. <-- EDIT:  NOPE, NOPE, NOPE!  That's WRONG!  What a mistake to make, <long sigh>

Makes you wonder how a game that is simple to play, can be so fiendishly difficult to fully comprehend.  Is that just... the way it always is?  Possibly.  How many games has any one person tried to gain encyclopedic knowledge about?  I suppose not all of them, at least.  :-\
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: hmsong on September 24, 2019, 04:52:35 am
As a matter of fact, Wolf Lord is both, but this is not commonly known.  Even I only found this out, not that long ago.  Makes you wonder how a game that is simple to play, can be so fiendishly difficult to fully comprehend.  Is that just... the way it always is?  Possibly...  :-\

How did you find that out?  According to the Monster Data Table, Wolf Lord is just Shade element (and Undead/Demon).
Quote
43 18 01 32 3B 40 5A 3C 63 64 00 63 43 01 20 <-- Undead/Demon
10 72 10 23 01 00 1F 00 B9 B9 0C 57 60 09
^ = Shade element
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 24, 2019, 05:03:06 am
Ahhhh... so it does!   :o

And it's correct!  Hmmmm...  This page here:

RPGClassics, Shrines:  SoM Enemies (http://shrines.rpgclassics.com/snes/som/enemiesf.shtml)

I misremembered it as saying both Werewolves and Wolf Lords were Luna-affiliated, which would make more sense IF it were true in the game, but it ain't, and the page doesn't say that.  Change the 1 to a 4 (0x0001 - 0x0100), in your Quoted example, and that will make him both.  You can do that for any monster, either already Undead/Demon, or made to be that way (change the other Bit to a 2 [0x0010], if it isn't already so).  Sorry about that... definitely my bad, this time.   Good call!   :-[
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: hmsong on September 24, 2019, 05:42:37 am
Well, that's a neat page to have around.  I totally forgot about RPGShrine.

Actually, that page still exists?  I first saw RPG Shrine back in the late 2000s, so it's been more than a decade.  Someone is maintaining that page well.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 24, 2019, 05:50:46 am
@hmsong  Of all the old SoM-related pages, that might be one of the few that is.  I still remember how crappy most of them were, even in their best form.  But that's just ranting for the sake of it, so I'll stop myself there.   :laugh:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: kethinov on September 24, 2019, 06:07:33 am
I am determined to keep my expensive but awesome fractional damage spell against bosses relevant somehow, so I now present a third option...

First there was "More Useful Evil Gate" now superseded by Queue's very cool shadow saber.

Then there was "Lunar Magic Boss Gravity Attack" now possibly superseded by Queue's very cool upgrades to Lunar Magic. If there is not consensus to raise the spell cost of Lunar Magic to combine Queue's hack with mine, then they can't be effectively combined.

So I'm taking one more stab at this... introducing: Firenado. This hack implements an Evil Gate-style fractional damage attack called Firenado for Salamando that replaces the Exploder spell. However, unlike Evil Gate, the Firenado will work on bosses (without Salamando resistance) too though at the cost of more MP to prevent it from being overpowered since this spell will almost always do 999 damage against bosses.

Pics:

(http://kethinov.com/images/linked/som/firenado/1.png)
(http://kethinov.com/images/linked/som/firenado/2.png)
(http://kethinov.com/images/linked/som/firenado/3.png)
(http://kethinov.com/images/linked/som/firenado/4.png)

Download "Firenado" here: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4681/
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 24, 2019, 06:49:21 am
@kethinov  Oy, steady on, man!  If you don't mind me saying so, you don't really have to convince ME about the percentage-attack being relevant (whether at last or again)!  I was already on board with that on the first iteration...  :happy:

That's what I meant from before, a review from me would've pointed out how much better Evil Gate is, when applying your patch.  At least if I'd gotten around to putting a review down!  I use [More_Useful_Evil_Gate] all the time, it's brilliant!

That being said, though... <deep breath>:



I like the other two versions of it as well!  Now I have THREE ways to do the percentage-attack!  Hot diggity DAAWWWWG!!   :laugh:

Thanks for the work you've done, making these hacks.  I really appreciate it, and will eventually review as many of your patches, as I have given a test-drive.  Hope you have a good day or night, have a tall frosty one from me (sort of).    :beer:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: hmsong on September 24, 2019, 07:41:36 am
@kethinov

I can only speak for myself, but few things:

1. I like Evil Gate.  Although 12MP is a bit much, I prefer the usage of Evil Gate.  Yes, Shadow Saber is more useful, blah blah.  But I want to have a spell that uses Evil Gate graphic.  Just by that is worth it.  Having said that, if you want to make it more useful, then make it damage against everything that is not Undead/Demon, rather Shade.  That should make that thing quite a bit more useful (dunno if that's possible though).  Evil Gate v1.2, as it were.

2. Again, I can only speak for myself, but I like Queue's Lunar magic more.  Just the fact that it can make the drop 100% is just so so much worth it.

3. This is pretty good idea.  After all, Explosion graphic is used by both Dark Force and Burst (even the spell select icon is the same as Dark Force).  Explosion will not be missed.  Does that mean enemies (Captain Duck) will be using that with impunity?  Yeesh.  That's gonna hurt (in a good way).  But more importantly, will it work on the Orb in Fire Palace?  Explode is required to pass through in the Fire Palace.

Of the three options, I like #3 the best, assuming it works on the Fire Palace's orb.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: kethinov on September 24, 2019, 07:48:48 am
Does that mean enemies (Captain Duck) will be using that with impunity?

Yep.

will it work on the Orb in Fire Palace?

It should, but I haven't explicitly tested that yet.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: hmsong on September 24, 2019, 08:03:46 am
Works for me!!

Sadly, I don't have any saves near the Fire Palace.  So I'll have to play through the game from the beginning again.  But that's fine.

Also, people not from this forum (hence not knowing about Queue's patch) will wonder why this spell is necessary (they have Useful Evil Gate patch, and not Shadow Saber patch).  Or rather, they may have both Evil Gate patch and Firenado to curbstomp any boss.  Then again, people not from this forum won't have Spell Recoil, so they'll just end up doing spell-chains.  But Captain Duck will be a pain for sure (even for Lv99 characters).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: Mr X on September 24, 2019, 08:12:24 am
Captain duck and hell hound staying strong till the end with the firenado and the powered up engulf  >:D

Have still yet to test the latest updates. Will do it later but they sure sound very cool

IIRC the Master Ninjas did use Exploder too, might be replaced with Firenado, tho they wont use it often really, they get taken out before any of that happens.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 24, 2019, 10:58:13 am
A couple of notes before I go back to what I'm doing elsewhere...

Most, if not all of you, will know that you can use Notepad and/or Wordpad to open up the ZPS file, as it's text-only, not encrypted in any way.  However, I found two rather strange effects when using them to edit and/or read the ZPS:

-     Notepad lags like a b****, when using it with the ZPS.  Which is less than 2000KB, but apparently that's too much for Microsoft's oh-so-mighty (EDIT) "text-editing" app to handle!  Is Bill Gates goddamn kidding me right now?!  Probably not, buuuuttt...

Spoiler:
(Really, MS?  F*** me dead!  Oh wait... you just want people to buy MS Office, right?  That's why you don't FIX this!!  Well guess what, Billyyyy?!  Ain't gonna happen from me!  So there, nyeah.)   >:D


      Wordpad does not have this issue.  (Which is inexplicable to me anyway.)  That much you might know already, but see the second note for something annoying I found out... the hard way.

-     If you use Wordpad with the ZPS, it's only useful for READing the file, not for EDITing it.  When I went to save the file after editing, there was no option to NOT apply a new format to it, leaving it as .zps.  I don't recall that it would change the .zps suffix, but the format itself?  YES.  It would.  DO NOT save your file in Wordpad at ANY TIME.  It will render the ZPS Patcher unable to load it properly, treating it as a corrupt file or... something?  How unfortunate... but on the other hand, if you always have 1 or more backups, not so bad.  Just... surprising.
   :banghead:

Spoiler:
(By the way, Microsoft:  STOP selling Windows with the Rich Text Format {.rtf}).  JUST STOOOOP!  Nobody needs it, you already have .doc and .docx for Office, .txt is a basic standard, what are you trying to do with this?!  I swear to God... WITH VERY BAD WORDS!)    >:D


-     I am in the process of preparing a file with modules that I have written, and may be of interest to some of you.  Once I have a preliminary (shortish) list of suggested modules, and I have tested them for functionality, I will Post the file to another folder in Google Drive, and put the Link in a future Post.  (EDIT:  It's up to the individual whether he/she wants to put in my little brain-farts, at the bottom of the ZPS.  At least this time, it will be UTF-8 format...)

-     As a corollary to the previous point, I have done no more work to the Table documents, nor started any other format of document/s such as Spell Function List and Details, eg.  Not yet.  I apologize for making interested parties such as hmsong wait, and will get back to the Tables at least, once my proto-list of modules is tested and up for preview.  (Spell Function and co. will be a fair time coming, but I am committed to the dissemination of info, about this game, and all mods/patches pertaining to it.)  If you use the modules I put in there, you may want to change the colored parts before putting them in the ZPS.  Or make further changes, not use them at anytime, it's all good fun.
   :laugh:

And that's the good news (friendly "Public Service Announcement?"  How pretentious of me!   :o).  The bad news is that I am STILL a very, very, talkative guy.  See you all when you get back.  That's all for now.

@hmsong  So, I'm not the only one who likes the Evil Gate animation (EDIT), besides kethinov?  Swweeeet...   :happy:

@Mr. X  Forgot to mention this but...

Quote
Mr. X:  As for making Lunar Magic more useful, going of the idea proposed by hmsong have two versions of it one for the enemies, other for the Sprite.

This is pretty cool!  Shorter RNG-range, equally as useful for PCs & Enemies.  I'll take it!  Errrr... :-[

Ahem... on a (hopefully more) rational note, Queue and/or someone else working on SoM patches, may have already taken these ideas into account.  Lunar Magic has been changed in a Turbo module once at least, as of the date I Posted this.  Will check it out in due course of time...
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: Mr X on September 24, 2019, 04:23:08 pm
Lunar Magic is just much better a a spell now. It still serves the putpose of being random and actually a useful spell.

Burst became pretty unique as a spell also. Love it.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: Queue on September 24, 2019, 05:33:14 pm
Eep, I'm a couple pages behind. So, here goes...



hmsong, you and I were thinking alike regarding Lunar Magic and treasure chance. It's not technically a guaranteed drop, it's (((Luna Level / Target Count) + 2) * 8), so 16% at level 0 up to 80% at level 8. It's permanent as well once the effect has occurred. It's actually easy to change a monster's appearance and drop chance, but hard to set it up so it can change back. There's a problem with most other suggestions for Lunar Magic though: space in the ROM for code. The optimized original version of Lunar Magic takes up 0xC0 bytes, but the Celestial Cascade version takes up 0xCF bytes currently, and I need to figure out how to squish it down to the same 0xC0 bytes. Adding any more functionality (stat debuffs, etc.) is almost definitely going to make compacting it even more difficult.

Here's its current behavior:
1) 25% chance to turn an enemy into a mimic, hide their weapon and boost chest drop chance; if not a basic enemy or already a mimic goto 2)
2) 37.5% chance for a status effect "cascade" which means:
- if immune to all of the following status effects goto 3)
- if HP < 50%, try poison
- else try petrify
- else try engulf
- else try poison (if immune to petrify and engulf)
- if not petrify or engulf, apply an immobilizing status effect:
-- try balloon
-- try sleep
-- try confuse and mire
- apply status effect
- if no damaging status effect applied (petrify, engulf, poison), goto 3)
3) 37.5% chance of Luna element direct damage at 65 power

So fundamentally it's a 4 mana cost 65 power Luna element direct damage spell, with a chance at instead doing damage via status effects or turning them into a mimic. Against most (all?) bosses, it likely just functions as a 4 mana 65 power Luna nuke. I wasn't worried about the mimic transformation being permanent since honestly, you're going to defeat it before a timer would run out under most circumstances, having a duration just isn't a big deal; it's not rare for the damaging effects to kill the target before you get lucky on the 25% chance of a transformation, and multi-target casting to keep the damage low doesn't affect the status effect damage and reduces the chest drop probability.

The Transform experiments are neat. Tell me which set you want me to include as an option in Turbo and I'll get that set up. I intend to do the same with your spell rebalancing too, but that has a lot of compatibility fixups to write that I don't want to commit to until I'm closer to taking a break from spell changes.

So for Dryad / Luna weakness, I tracked the calculated damage as it went through the game's spell power calculations when casting a spell. I went to the Moon Palace entrance and cast burst on a Marmablue; the result was that yes, Dryad weakness is working, but I suspect I know what problem you're seeing. 100 power is really high so the spell was doing WAY over the damage cap: after applying the weakness multiplier, the number was at 3884 with a level 99 sprite casting single target Burst on a Marmablue. That number gets divided by 2 then capped at 999, then the enemy's magic defense is subtracted from it, resulting in damage numbers like 795. Bumping any other spell to 100 power still generally means it does damage so far over the cap that it winds up capping to 999 in the middle of the spell damage formula.

As for the Saber damage bonus, it works like this:
When a Saber spell is cast, (Saber spell level / target count) is saved in the target's data (in a byte shared with Moon Energy uses). When melee damage is dealt, after charge level and mana magic multipliers have been applied, if saved Saber level isn't 0, base damage / (10 - saved Saber level) is added to damage, which should mean +50% damage from a level 8 saber; attack up and attack down are each 25% at the same stage in the formula (down takes precedence and blocks up, if you somehow had both on at the same time). After that are quite a few more steps in the damage formula.

I intend to replace both enemy type melee affinity and elemental melee damage features that are currently in Turbo with ones more similar in logic with Attack Up / Down, with the end result being hopefully more controllable.

I know about the Lofty Mountains background. Not sure how to fix it. They wanted a distant view of the ridgeline with some form of parallax scrolling but where you enter the area affect the starting offset of the background's scrolling in a way that messes up what you end up seeing.

Yes, Herbal Boost Revivifier should be doing Luna damage:
Code: [Select]
' element fixups (after exchanging data)
@OFF %Spell.Data.Moon_Energy%Element%
RAW Spell.Element.Luna
@OFF %Spell.Data.Revivifier%Element%
RAW Spell.Element.Dryad
Remember that Revivifier is in the Moon_Energy slot, and that little bit of code is making sure Moon_Energy is Luna. However, Revivifier's damage should be ignoring strengths / weaknesses and always treating the target as weak (the implication being that ghost / undead are weak to Revivifier regardless of element) so what element it's set to doesn't actually end up mattering.



zoolgremlin, it feels like these are going to be nitpicks but I'm not intending to pick on you, just seems to be how this post worked out; genuinely just trying to be informative.

I added the new ZPS Patcher debug log with you in mind; if you have trouble enabling the log let me know and I can reiterate the change to the ZPS file required. Syntax / parsing errors will show up near the bottom of the log among the following lines:
Code: [Select]
MAKE: SetDefininitions
MAKE: Compile
MAKE: Assemble
| MAKE: Success !

Regarding modern game space usage, for games with voice acting, it's not unusual for audio to take up more space than textures; looking back even at a game from 1997 this was true if you chose its high quality sound option during install. In general though, textures dominate space usage otherwise. I can only think of some oddballs in the era before bone animation systems for 3D were standard where animations took up a large amount of space as model complexity increased (each frame of the animation had vertex positioning data for each vertex of the model, so a high polygon count model had animations many times the size of the model they were animating).

I like the Luna Revivifier name suggestion, but I want to avoid name changes when possible, as Relocalized compatibility makes them a pain in the butt. -_-
This is also why Celestial Cascade is just the feature name; Lunar Magic's name (or Lunacy with Relocalized) isn't changed in-game. Regarding Turn Undead, I don't feel the spell name needs a change in that case, as fundamentally it's still a revive spell; it just so happens you can cast it on enemies now and video game convention is if you can cast healing magic on undead, it hurts them.

And regarding notepad et al. wwwwhhhhooooaaaa hold your horses. Notepad isn't a word processor, and is barely a text editor. It's a demonstration program for the Edit control that works acceptably on small text files. Older versions (Win9x era) simply couldn't open text files bigger than... I think ~64KB? because the Edit control derived from 16-bit Windows code. Over time it's had minor features tacked on (both the Edit control and Notepad), but it's too limited for major work. WordPad is meant to be a dumpy minimal word processor, and that's why it's not suitable as a text editor (formatting, etc. is beyond what's expected in a text file, which by definition should only contain bytes that represent text). To make working on such a large text file as Turbo's ZPS file reasonable, I'd suggest getting a purpose-built text editor. I use an ancient version of Notepad++ (no relation to Microsoft's Notepad), but there are hundreds of text editors out there, and probably as many as a dozen that are good. For Turbo's ZPS they just need to support UTF-8 text files with byte order mark.



Mr X, it would actually be hard to make Change Form both transform an enemy into a Mimic AND change their chest drop chance; all Change Form does is set the Transformed status effect on the target, and that's it (it relies on the status effect system to do the transformation). Lunar Magic has tons of code to handle its random effect selection, messages and the effects themselves, so naturally lent itself to be modified into a different custom effect. For Lunar Magic I went (basically) fully offensive since Luna lacked a proper attack spell, and was trying to make something you could spam offensively like Earth Slide, Freeze, etc. but still maintain the whimsy the developers seem to have intended for Luna. I tried to make the status effect part of it damage focused but will need some playtesting to know if it's effective enough (or too effective).



kethinov, d'oh! Wasn't expecting your Lunar Magic patch. I think the Firenado result will ultimately be the best end result of these conflicts of ideas. The vanilla sprite Salamando spell line-up is terrible, so getting some diversity there, while sticking to the damage-focused vanilla theme seems perfect.

I don't even want to know what it would take to have a spell have multiple animations depending on target type... I think you'd need an entire second spell that you reset currently cast spell values to then restart the spell casting sequence.

Regarding the possible Transform enemy list, having a few non-vanilla options to pick from seems like a good way to handle it, so will likely have your "all cloners" list and whatever curated list hmsong wants to go with.

Specifically transforming an enemy and changing its drop chance turned out to be pleasantly simple: (where X has actor offset) change $E180,X to set new appearance, $E1E3,X to set weapon (looking at my code, I don't think I set it how I meant to, whoops), $E1FA,X set 0x01 to indicate actor sprite needs changing and 0x04 to indicate weapon needs changing (I think regarding 0x04, didn't double-check that one), and $E1CE,X for chest drop chance. So it's a matter of setting some data, and then setting some flags to tell the game to update based on some of that data changing.

When figuring that out it became apparent that when you frosty an enemy it actually transforms them into a snowman NPC (0x83 if memory serves), which overrides their AI. Don't actually know how the other disabling status effects (petrify, balloon, engulf) disable their actions.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: hmsong on September 24, 2019, 06:22:22 pm
@Queue

Thank you for your kind response to my ideas (whether you accepted them or rejected them).  Now that I know Lunar Magic will always do regular damage spells on bosses, that thing is even more attractive.  Having said that, Luna isn't suppose to do "damage" (Luna Palace doesn't have boss for that reason, probably).  And it'll be a pain when you're trying to make an enemy into Mimic, but it ends up killing it.

Still, awesome.

As requested, here is my Change Form list (all different types/elements):
Code: [Select]
' Rabite --> Ma Goblin (aka Goblin Guard)
@OFF $C8E5F3
RAW 0E

' Mushboom --> Dark Funk
@OFF $C8E5F4
RAW 0F

' Lullabud --> Crawler
@OFF $C8E5F5
RAW 10

' Kid Goblin --> Zombie
@OFF $C8E5F6
RAW 12

' Green Drop --> Nemesis Owl
@OFF $C8E5F7
RAW 15

' Water Thug --> Mimic Box
@OFF $C8E5F8
RAW 2D

' Pebbler --> Weepy Eye
@OFF $C8E5F9
RAW 33

' Pumpkin Bomb --> Shellblast
@OFF $C8E5FA
RAW 34

' Mimic Box type = Fish/Plant -> Dragon
@OFF $D02127
RAW 80

As you can see, I changed Mimic to Dragon type, since none of the regular enemies fit the profile of "Dragon".

Also, I changed things for Shape Shifter possibilities:
Code: [Select]
' Mimic Box --> (same)
' @OFF $D09CF3
' RAW 2D

' Rabite --> Mushgloom
@OFF $D09CFB
RAW 2A

' Eggplant Man --> Needlion
@OFF $D09D03
RAW 3C

' Captain Duck --> (same)
' @OFF $D09D0B
' RAW 41

' Beast Zombie --> Gremlin
@OFF $D09D10
RAW 46

I just didn't want players to have early access to Imp's Ring, so I got rid of Eggplant Man (Needlion's Needle Helm is alright, since you have access to Basilisk and National Scar, who have better helmet anyways).  And more importantly, all these guys are sort of signature/recurring monsters of Mana series (again, different types, different elements).  I didn't include Silktail, because Silktail is too weak at this point of game.

Ahh, so that's what happened with Luna/Dryad weakness.  Haha.  Thank you for figuring that out.

Now, I have another request (among my other requests, like the Goblin Village shortcut and Moogle SE on enemies):
- Can you make Blaze Wall's target to Enemies and Allies?  That way, when enemies are around, you'd use the regular Blaze Wall, but when they're not, you'd use it on yourself for Inferno Barrier.  The name should retain its original name (Blaze Wall), since "Wall" name still applies, even on yourself.

That way, I can use kethinov's Firenado (for its graphic purpose), and still use Shadow Saber (I hesitated Shadow Saber, because I wanted to have a spell with Evil Gate graphic).  I was really bored with the vanilla's Salamander spell pool, and Explode was the most lazy of them all.  With that addition though, I'd have to get rid of Lava Wave's Engulf status (since I want regular 61PWR fire spell too).

As a [good] side effect, it'll make NPC Blaze Wall unnecessary.

Thank you.




September 24, 2019, 07:15:41 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
@Queue  @kethinov

A request (again):  Can you make a patch that switches Fire Bouquet and Speed Up?  I feel like Gnome having two "enhancements" while Salamando has large amount of "damage" spells is unnecessary.  And while at it, make Fire Bouquet's <damage + atk down> to <SE = Petrify> (no, it doesn't do damage, although Petrify SE will do damage to non-bosses who are vulnerable to Petrify).  Spell name is Stone Smoke (the color of spell should be changed to something brown/grey).  This will make some of the enemies a bit more difficult, but that's alright (Mech Rider will be abusing the heck out of it, but at least he won't be casting Speed Up on YOUR party though).  That way, players would have access (other than Lunar Magic) to cause petrify to enemies (assuming Mud Saber replaces Stone Saber).  It won't be as powerful as Stone Saber either (since it's not Petrify + damage).  It should remain its 3MP cost though (better than Balloon, but not as good as Blaze Wall).

And add the missing Atk Down to Lucent Beam or Dark Force.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 24, 2019, 08:55:18 pm
@Queue 
Spoiler:
Quote
-       It feels like these are going to be nitpicks but I'm not intending to pick on you, just seems to be how this post worked out; genuinely just trying to
        be informative.
-       And regarding notepad et al., wwwwhhhhooooaaaa hold your horses.
-       I'd suggest getting a purpose-built text editor.  For Turbo's ZPS they just need to support UTF-8 text files with byte order mark.
-       I like the Luna Revivifier name suggestion, but I want to avoid name changes when possible.


AND
-       The result was that yes, Dryad weakness is working, but I suspect I know what problem you're seeing. 100 power is really high so the spell was doing WAY
        over the damage cap.

Quite a few discussion points came up, I'll just quickly run through the Quoted ones in the Spoiler box, and let things roll freely afterwards.

    1.  Don't worry at all about coming off as "nitpicky", I value your advice in matters of programming and data analysis.  Because I'm almost certain you've either
        done this professionally (as a paid job/career), or... you've practised programming a LOT, as a hobby.  :)

    2.  "Touche`!  Mine ears do sting at thy tongue!  I shall away, in search of easier folly!"  (I jest, it's a paraphrase from another Square Enix game.)

        I was half-joking about the MS stuff too, but the point is well-met.  You're right, Notepad isn't a "word-processor", after all.  On the plus side, I am reminded
        now that this is ROMhacking.net, not RandomlyBeatUpOnSquare&Microsoft.net!  That website name would never fit the screen as a header/banner, as entertaining as
        it may be to... some.  Who, me?  Noooooo... except yes.   :-[ :laugh:

    3.  Ahaaah hahaaah!  So UTF-8 Text is the format needed for compatibility with ZPS.  I will look for such a text-editor after a nap... thanks very much for your
        patience and guidance.

    4.  That's okay, it's not required to put it in.  I don't really use Relocalized, so I don't think in terms of compatibility with it.  Glad you like the name...


AND 5.  Great catch with the Luna/Dryad mystery.  I knew that the battle system uses ceiling/floor values in several places, just didn't imagine hmsong was actually
        hitting the damage ceiling.  When I tested Lunar Magic with the damage-only algorithm, I wasn't hitting it.  The answer to a question might seem obvious, but if
        it's only after someone else told you, that's nothing to crow about.  Except for the other person.  Ehehe... I'm much obliged to you for looking into it, and
        finding the answer.  Many cheers!   :beer:




And thus I prove what's already known:  Put up a sign saying "End-Of-All-Existence Switch", someone's bound to press it, so don't mark it as such.  Put something in a Spoiler, someone's bound to look at it, so maybeeee... don't write that?

Is that the gist of it?  I should take up meditation again.  At least what I said wasn't as vile as my Comments in, well... my proto-list of Experimental Tweaks.

Between trying to be funny, and racist slurs against the Japanese, it's just as well my proverbial "axe" wasn't flying completely off the handle.  I still feel chastised, though.  So there's that.  Off to bed now, see you all later.   8)



hmsong  Apologies for my loooong explanation of the obvious, with the Element-Wheel stuff.  Somehow, I got it in my head that you were confused about it (nope).  Perhaps I should Delete that entire Post... hope you have a good one.   :) <whew>
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: hmsong on September 24, 2019, 09:09:18 pm
@zoolgremlin

No apologies necessary.  I'm the one who used rather... poor choice of words. :P

September 25, 2019, 12:36:14 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)

@Queue

You're right about the spell rebalance.  There's a lot of spell editing going on right now (and I requested even more).  I'll do another list after the dust settles.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: Mr X on September 25, 2019, 02:19:32 am
Maybe Lunar Magic should still have a bit of randomness for Bosses too, even tho none status effect really do anything to them. But I wont mind it, It seems like a pretty powerful spell, used it on Mega Xorn (Sheex), someone weak to Luna, level 7 luna magic did more than 800 damage, or even 900 sometimes! (I was using also the spear that increases your int/wisdom so that could play a role too).

hmsong

Players can have early access to gauntlets from the dark knights in dark palace. Or if by some mircale the dark stalker drops the ninja gauntlet in tasnica. Besides the Eggplantman drops the Watcher Ring not the Imps ring, that one is dropped by the ghost in pure land.

No big deal in having him drop the watchers ring too through the shapeshifters when you have access to gauntlets in Dark Palace, then ninja gloves on the grand temple too. All these equipment make you too powerful for that dungeon but are more useful for Pure Land (I have that one patch active where you cannot get the same piece of equipment twice, so getting just one piece of each is no big deal).

Keep in mind with your stone smoke idea Spikey will cast Speed up possibly on your party.

Dark Force with atk and possibly magical atk down would be neat. Dark lich would love that if luck manages to get him cast that spell before I take him out lol.

Also I tested a level 4 burst on the marmaglue and it did almost 800 damage. The weakness works more than fine I suppose haha.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: hmsong on September 25, 2019, 03:05:56 am
Mr X

You're right about the Gauntlets from Dark Knights (and Metal Crawlers).  But Gauntlet is something you can buy later (and will ultimately sell away at some point).  You're not gonna grind for it (nor will you grind for Needle Helm).  Watcher Ring (thanks for the correction) is something you keep, just because it has SE protection.  You know you do.  Ninja Gloves is an issue, but I can't do anything about that (I don't want to mess with the drop items).  Regardless, I just personally don't want players to have access to Watcher Ring as early as Sage's cave.  Obviously, if you're using that patch to keep only one kind of item, then you can simply keep the original values.

Spikey won't Speed Up your party.  The reason Mech Rider uses Speed Up on your party is because he casts Wall on himself (if he's attack by a spell), THEN use Speed Up.  Spikey won't do that.  He'll use Speed Up on himself.  That'll actually work in his favor, since Spikey uses a lot of melee attacks (in fact, Speed Up may make him even tougher).  And Speed Up also affects his Fire Breath (since that's counted as melee), so that'll work in his favor too.

Attack Down on Lucent Beam will work great, since the main means of hurting Mana Beast is through melee.  Primm will have to use Lunar Boost to cancel that out (using Dispel on your party would cancel out Mana Magic, so that's no good).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 25, 2019, 03:19:17 am
Quote
hmsong  No apologies necessary.  I'm the one who used rather... poor choice of words. :P

Ah well, I dunno about that.  Perhaps I didn't read your description of the problem closely enough.  Anyway, no harm done to me.   :thumbsup:

Changing Mech Rider III's Wall-cast to Lucid Barrier is a tweak I'm gonna do for myself, once I know the single byte to change in his AI, I'll put it in my prototype list.  Only difference is, I probably don't have to put the list on Google Drive anymore, since I have "Programmer's Notebook" installed, which can save changes to the ZPS in UTF-8 format.  Exactly what it started with...  :)

Also will experiment with Mana Beast's AI, and a few others, but... first I'm gonna read back through this thread.  There are a number of requests people had, some of them yours.  Can't remember them all by-heart, so looks like I will have a "Bucket List" as well.

That nap certainly cleared my head.  No more axe-flying-off-handle... stuff just yet.  Back later... cheers.   8)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: Mr X on September 25, 2019, 03:22:45 am
Mr X

You're right about the Gauntlets from Dark Knights (and Metal Crawlers).  But Gauntlet is something you can buy later (and will ultimately sell away at some point).  You're not gonna grind for it (nor will you grind for Needle Helm).  Watcher Ring (thanks for the correction) is something you keep, just because it has SE protection.  You know you do.  Ninja Gloves is an issue, but I can't do anything about that (I don't want to mess with the drop items).  Regardless, I just personally don't want players to have access to Watcher Ring as early as Sage's cave.  Obviously, if you're using that patch to keep only one kind of item, then you can simply keep the original values.

Spikey won't Speed Up your party.  The reason Mech Rider uses Speed Up on your party is because he casts Wall on himself (if he's attack by a spell), THEN use Speed Up.  Spikey won't do that.  He'll use Speed Up on himself.  That'll actually work in his favor, since Spikey uses a lot of melee attacks (in fact, Speed Up may make him even tougher).  And Speed Up also affects his Fire Breath (since that's counted as melee), so that'll work in his favor too.

Then it isn't that big of an issue for the eggplantman to appear that early neither, all it does is protect against the moogle effect, which may only  come in handy once you are in pure land vs the dragon worm. Besides it's a rare drop and getting items through shapeshifters is a pain in of itself, good luck with that those that are comited to do that haha. There is already and eggpland man in the underground city too, at the end of the train.


Oh yes I know about that, I was just speculating. But yeah, you are right, that works on his favor which I really like actually when bosses are made like that, instead of fights like the dumb mech rider 3 ones, or having too many damaging spells like thanatos that offer him nothing, not like you have elemental weakness.
But anyway let's wait and see.

Attack Down on Lucent Beam will work great, since the main means of hurting Mana Beast is through melee.  Primm will have to use Lunar Boost to cancel that out (using Dispel on your party would cancel out Mana Magic, so that's no good).

No love for the Lich huh

September 25, 2019, 03:30:34 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
An odd thing I ran into, in the underground city, right before you enter the "train" Duck General is there in animation, attacks, uses his spell but does no damage, and I can't target him. Seems like I killed him but his animation didn't disappear.

I tried that specific area again, but it worked just fine, they disappeared upon killing them.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: hmsong on September 25, 2019, 03:50:30 am
Quote
There is already and eggpland man in the underground city too, at the end of the train.

Oh yeah.  You're right.  I forgot about that.  Well jeez.  That makes my actions... in vain.  Sigh.  I'm gonna ponder some more.

EDIT: I have pondered some more, and I decided to stick with what I have (for now).  I can't come up with a better list, at least not without adding in weaker enemies.  Well, Metal Crawler and Steelpion were candidates (for Dryad and Gnome element enemy), but I liked Mushgloom and Needlion better (they are significantly more threatening).  And I didn't like Kimono Wizard for whatever reason.

Quote
No love for the Lich huh

Actually, I attached Poison to Dark Force.  Because Dark Force animation is long, the poison will do lots of damage BEFORE the Dark Force actually does damage (except when it casts Lv9, in which case, poison does not start).  This is the biggest upside to Poison over Engulf.  And because the target is stun-locked, you can't do anything while the poison does its thing (unless you switch control to another character, and then use item/spell to cure the victim).  Having said that, Sleep Flower already has Poison SE, so I'm still debating.  And if you have Faerie Ring equipped, poison won't affect you.

If Queue succeeds in making Moogle work on enemies (disable melee while allowing movement), I'll probably give Moogle to Lucent Beam, and give Atk Down to Dark Force.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: Mr X on September 25, 2019, 04:36:36 am
Imo, Moogle and making you tiny should be the enemy's version of transforming you into a weaker character, like their version of transform. You wont get transformed into a weaker monster, but a moogle or tiny, or both.

September 25, 2019, 04:40:59 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Actually, I attached Poison to Dark Force.  Because Dark Force animation is long, the poison will do lots of damage BEFORE the Dark Force actually does damage (except when it casts Lv9, in which case, poison does not start).  This is the biggest upside to Poison over Engulf.  And because the target is stun-locked, you can't do anything while the poison does its thing (unless you switch control to another character, and then use item/spell to cure the victim).  Having said that, Sleep Flower already has Poison SE, so I'm still debating.  And if you have Faerie Ring equipped, poison won't affect you.


That's why the patch of having only one of the same item is awesome. You also have other status effects you have to worry about too, the rings I use at the end are imps ring, amulet ring and faerie ring.

Imp ring for engulfment, frostying, Amulet ring for petrify, Faerie ring for poison, pygmying, frostying, dizziness, ballooning.

But anyway, I still like the sleep flower having the poison status, as the sleep status only makes it kind of useless as a spell. Imo at least.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: hmsong on September 25, 2019, 04:48:35 am
Does anyone know where the codes are for seeing which equipment nullifies which SE?  I'd love to play around with those.  And add Mire status immunity.

September 25, 2019, 04:51:30 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)

@Mr X

I agree that Sleep Flower that has Poison is awesome.  So much better to that useless spell.

My final equipment = Cockatrice Cap (for all 3 chars), since that nullifies Petrify.  And Faerie Ring, since that nullifies lots of stats.  Amulet Ring is unnecessary, since Cockatrice Cap is so much better (you can have em all).  But I still keep all the final rings, for the novelty.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 25, 2019, 06:23:12 am
@hmsong  The Armor Table starts at address $D03ED0 (00103ED0 in HxD column, so Bank 0x10), though just now I seem to be having trouble working out... where it ends.  My mind was clear before, but after washing the dishes... so frustrating.   :banghead:

I will check slowly, deliberately, with HxD.  Just a moment, please...  :)



Got it!  From $D03ED0 (00103ED0 in HxD Address Column)  to $D04145 (00104145 in HxD Address Column).  There you go!  Full Armor, Helmet and Accessory Data Table coming soon...  :crazy:

@Mr. X  Vanilla Cockatrice Cap is indeed a fine piece of equipment.  I use it in the Remake all the time...

And yes, although I didn't really think about it before, Vanilla Pygmy and Moogle are the character equivalent of Transform.  The immunities between them on one side, and Transform on the monster's side, are swapped around.   :)

@Queue  Sorry.  Forgot to say days ago, that I like the idea of the Mired status being called Quagmired, if you decide to go with that.   :laugh:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: Mr X on September 25, 2019, 06:37:33 am
Does anyone know where the codes are for seeing which equipment nullifies which SE?  I'd love to play around with those.  And add Mire status immunity.

September 25, 2019, 04:51:30 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)

@Mr X

I agree that Sleep Flower that has Poison is awesome.  So much better to that useless spell.

My final equipment = Cockatrice Cap (for all 3 chars), since that nullifies Petrify.  And Faerie Ring, since that nullifies lots of stats.  Amulet Ring is unnecessary, since Cockatrice Cap is so much better (you can have em all).  But I still keep all the final rings, for the novelty.

I simply give the cocratice cap to the one character that doesn't have amulet ring, otherwise I would go with more or less the same equipment as you, but that's kinda boring so I have the unique equipment patch always on for more fun and variety.  :)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: hmsong on September 25, 2019, 10:19:38 am
@kethinov

I used the Firenado patch, and it doesn't seem to work.  The spell menu icon changed and the MP cost changed, but its name is still Explode, and when I use it, the game freezes.  Did anyone else experience that?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: Mr X on September 25, 2019, 11:09:52 am
@kethinov

I used the Firenado patch, and it doesn't seem to work.  The spell menu icon changed and the MP cost changed, but its name is still Explode, and when I use it, the game freezes.  Did anyone else experience that?

I experienced that too. The game crashed and it had the same gfx as the shadow saber but in salamando palette for me also.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 25, 2019, 11:37:17 am
hmsong & Mr. X  I have the patch on my hard drive, but haven't tried using it yet.  If I had to guess, I'd say... it might not have had any compatibility fixes with other mods/patches in Turbo.  Except for Proper-caser.  Is that how you used the patch?   :huh:



@Queue  I... didn't think I'd be Commenting here again so soon.  But I was wondering if you knew about the unused data at $C06383-$C06432.  I'm looking at your [Overwrite_Unused_Data] patch with Programmer's Notepad (which seems to get the job done...  8)), and Regrs, zhaDe or Enker Commented on this code sector.  Is that one of the sectors that your patch zeroes out?   :)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: hmsong on September 25, 2019, 05:34:13 pm
@zoolgremlin

Quote
There you go!  Full Armor, Helmet and Accessory Data Table coming soon...  :crazy:

Really looking forward to that.

Quote
hmsong & Mr. X  I have the patch on my hard drive, but haven't tried using it yet.  If I had to guess, I'd say... it might not have had any compatibility fixes with other mods/patches in Turbo.  Except for Proper-caser.  Is that how you used the patch?

I tried the regular patch (after using Turbo patch).  It crashed.  Then I patched the Proper-Case patch on top of the previous patch.  It still crashed.  Then I made a fresh .smc file from Turbo, then used only Proper-Case patch.  Nothing.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: Queue on September 25, 2019, 08:17:48 pm
Was getting Firenado imported into Turbo and came across some issues (or whatever some of these count as):
- the first is on my end, the SSE version of Evil Gate didn't perfectly replicate Evil Gate, in that it didn't do less damage on a multi-target cast, will get back to this in a sec, but it's now fixed
- Firenado's high level animations likely aren't doing what is intended:
-- they have "aim type" 0E set, which does some sort of animation override, so you see the high level Exploder animation instead of the high level Evil Gate swirl
-- they specify animation script $D1949C which is a "do nothing" script, to go along with "aim type" 0E (this is intentional, but worth pointing out that that animation script is empty)
-- changing them to the same values as the mid-level variant is a stop gap that at least brings back a swirl graphic
- Firenado's palette is a copy of Lava Wave, so potentially you could save the ~10 byte palette overwrite and just have Firenado's spell icon point to Lava Wave's palette; obviously causes a conflict if Lava Wave's palette gets changed, but then that would be a one-byte correction if the issue ever arises
- Firenado overwrites Exploder's first spell icon with what I'm pretty sure is a byte-for-byte copy of vanilla Evil Gate's, but then also points Firenado's spell icon at Evil Gate's and doesn't use the replaced Exploder icon; this is basically the reverse of what was done for its icon palette
- Firenado copies the entirety of Evil Gate's spell function; there are a few options to change the weakness check logic to make Evil Gate's spell function use the spell data's element for the test so that all Evil Gate variations use the same spell function:
-- like I mentioned at the start, I had messed up and wasn't having the Evil Gate spell function call SSE.Func.Helper.Calc.ScaledLevel (the equivalent in the vanilla disassembly is referred to as CalculateSpellUses, which divides the spell level by the target count), one option for the elemental immunity logic would be to replace this function call with SSE.Func.Helper.Calc.Weakness (SetElementalResistanceValue) which sets the temp var $8F (to 0x01 if strong) and then instead of checking the target's element, instead check temp var $8F (for bit 0x0001 to keep the other logic the same)
Code: [Select]
@OFF $C8ED84
'JSR $C8EA69 :16 ' CalculateSpellUses
JSR $C8E8A0 :16 ' SetElementalResistanceValue
@OFF $C8EDB2
'LDA+X $E1FB ' CHARACTER_TYPE
'BIT #0040 ' BOSS
LDA $8F ' temp, weakness
NOP
BIT #0001 ' strong
-- the other option, if the damage reduction on multi-target is to be kept would be to replace its call to the helper function that calculates spell power / duration instead of the level division, because I'm pretty sure nothing from the spell power / duration helper is used in the Evil Gate code:
Code: [Select]
@OFF $C8ED87
'JSR $C8E8C0 :16 ' CalculateSpellPowerAndTimer
JSR $C8E8A0 :16 ' SetElementalResistanceValue
@OFF $C8EDB2
'LDA+X $E1FB ' CHARACTER_TYPE
'BIT #0040 ' BOSS
LDA $8F ' temp, weakness
NOP
BIT #0001 ' strong

Either would make the immunity based on the spell's element rather than a hardcoded element. My vote is to ditch the multi-target penalty on a 12 mana cost spell; it still does meh damage against trash enemies so the penalty seems unnecessary.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: hmsong on September 25, 2019, 09:16:36 pm
I was... unable to follow that, at least in my sleepy state.  All I understood from that is that one of the calculations ignores the multi-target penalty.

But whatever you choose to do, I'm sure it'll be good.  The important thing is that it works with Turbo patch (I was unable to get Firenado v1.0 to work).  I am looking forward to that.

September 25, 2019, 11:26:27 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
I wanted to know how long the SE lasts, so I tested a Lv7 SE magics on monsters.  My exp tell me that Lv7 Sleep Flower, Balloon, and Confuse last ~58 sec, so I'm confident that all SE lasts ~58 sec at Lv7.  Saber magic SE last ~8 sec.

So I casted Lv7 Sleep Flower (that has poison) on full-health Ice Thug (Pure Land).  It died before the spell wore off (died in ~27 sec).  And since Poison is Max HP based, that means that Poison will absolutely kill any monster that are vulnerable to it, in one shot (if you're willing to wait).  Well, I guess Engulf won't (since it's Current HP based), but we know from experience that Engulf does some crazy damage too (Heck Hound's Lv5 Blaze Wall Engulf did more than 250 damage on my 999 HP character, whereas Death Flower's Lv5 Sleep Flower Poison did more than 300 damage).  Perhaps they both should be nerfed a bit (instead of 1/64, make it 1/128).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 26, 2019, 12:31:11 am
@hmsong  You may want to consider the merit of giving enemies much higher HP, which will compensate them for the turbo-charged Poison/Engulf damage-over-time effect...  :laugh:

Saber Magic is not timed, exactly.  It gets a certain number that gets decremented by 1, every time you land a hit with it.  A hit that does 0 damage, does not count in that regard, as far as I know.

Also, it would be possible to edit the new code/script in the ZPS that calculates the fraction/percentage of DOT that each do... I'll check.   :)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: hmsong on September 26, 2019, 12:39:53 am
@zoolgremlin

I was talking about the duration of the Status Effects (whether they're from spells or sabers), not magic effects.  Sabers doing x number of hits is magic effect.

And having higher HP won't mean much, since Poison/Engulf does % damage.  That was one of the reasons I preferred a fixed damage from Poison/Engulf (Lv0 does 1/tick, while Lv8 does 9/tick).  Or, to make a difference between Poison and Engulf, Poison should do 1 or 2 more damage per tick than Engulf.

But I don't know how to program things in such ways.  And Queue's method is by no means bad either (I just think it should be nerfed a bit more).

Btw, what is DOT?  Damage... Over Time?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 26, 2019, 01:07:59 am
Quote
hmsong:  Btw, what is DOT?  Damage... Over Time?

Yep, you got it right in one!  Swweeeet...  :D

Quote
hmsong:  And having higher HP won't mean much, since Poison/Engulf does % damage

Ah, fair point.  Well, hmmmm...

Got it!  The damage done in one 'tick' of Poison/Engulf, maxes out at 255 (because it's stored in an 8-bit address).  So there's options here that don't involve messing with Queue's code/script, but might come with their own difficulties, when implementing them:

-    Make the duration of Poison/Engulf shorter.  This could be achieved by increasing the Magic Defence/Magic Block% of monsters (or Defence/Evade% in the case
     of weapon status-applying attacks), at least late-game. Alternatively or in addition, diminish the Spell Power (or Weapon Power) of anything that causes the
     two defects, eg. the new Sleep Flower/Lava Wave, the Sprite's Spear (which inflicts Balloon), etc.

-    Make more monsters immune to the two defects.  At least late-game, it can be argued that some of the things you're fighting, ought not to be this frail and
     unhealthy (so high Defence/Mag. Def, high HP, what have you).  Unlike Tales of Xillia 1 & 2, this game doesn't have a difficulty setting that can be toggled
     in-game, at any time outside of battle, soooo... things are either p***-easy all the time, fair and moderate all the time, or balls-to-the-wall hard
     all the time, haha.  I prefer moderate myself, challenging but not a living nightmare.

Does that help by any chance?  It's all worth experimenting with, at least in the long run.  But there's a lot more factors to consider, with the additions of Turbo and it's (now) associated patches/mods/bugfixes/etc.   :)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: hmsong on September 26, 2019, 01:23:28 am
Hmm.  I'm gonna have to experiment to see how things work, but I can't think of anything at the moment.  Yeah, making the duration shorter may work, but I don't want to mess with each individual monsters and edit that.  What to do what to do.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 26, 2019, 05:59:09 am
UPDATE:    A new table is now available in the Google Drive folder I have reserved, for the purpose of disseminating information about the Vanilla game.  It is not complete yet, but it's a start.  Also, all other table documents in the same folder, have been slightly upgraded for the sake of clarity and presentation.  If you are relying on these documents for experimental reasons or any other, I encourage you to download them again.  They may be upgraded or fixed at any time, if need be, and I may forget to disclose as such.  Once a month maximum for the older ones (over 1 month since release) is enough.

Here's the Link to the Folder again, anyone with this Link may view all documents in the Folder.  I am considering the possibility of giving out Suggestions permission for these documents, also.   :):

Secret of Mana Information (Vanilla) (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1fAVv9BMl7N9wPnPzpCkSDkVYp0le1BkU?usp=sharing)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: hmsong on September 26, 2019, 06:39:42 am
@zoolgremlin

As always, thank you.  I shall use them well.  Perhaps it would be wise to put a date on the document.  Not on the file name itself, but in the content of the document (next to the title).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 26, 2019, 07:02:32 am
@hmsong  Good thinking, I will do that now.   ;)

Quote
Queue:
      (1)  I believe there are still a number of significant points that have come up with no response from myself.  Here's the one I found just now:
           Either would make the immunity based on the spell's element rather than a hardcoded element. My vote is to ditch the multi target penalty on a 12 mana
           cost spell; it still does meh damage against trash enemies so the penalty seems unnecessary.

      (2)  Regarding modern game space usage, for games with voice acting, it's not unusual for audio to take up more space than textures; looking back even at a
           game from 1997 this was true if you chose its high quality sound option during install

      (3)  Well beyond this small sample size for testing the chest, I've observed that taking the eastern route has been far more common than the narrow western
           path (apparently not everyone notices that it's an accessible route), so the altered monsters has been the primary sticking point.
[/font

(Me-1)  I'll put my vote in too... although I never use the fractional-damage function on regular stuff.  Not enough Mag. Def. to justify piercing it.   :)

(Me-2)  Aaaah, that's a very interesting counter-point to what I said, which actually makes sense now that I think about it.  Great!

(Me-3)  I would cheerfully put in a vote to block off the narrow West path, if it weren't for all the backtracking in the early game.  Now that doesn't bother me
        anymore, what with "run forever", "change direction while doing it", and "faster stamina regen while killing stuff in-between", options available.  But it
        might still be a bother to some.  Perhaps if they only stayed blocked until after getting the axe from Watts?  Or some other point?  <shrug>

        I don't know if anyone even cares about a map change like that.  The tougher monsters with [Gaia's_Navel_Treasure] counts as a reason not to as well,
        most likely.   Did I mention there's a "run forever" option?!  Hey, you guys over there who take the long road!  Can you hear me?! (I kid...)  :laugh:

        More seriously, no-one's clamouring for that, so there is no vote.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: hmsong on September 26, 2019, 09:18:27 am
Quote
@Queue  @kethinov

A request (again):  Can you make a patch that switches Fire Bouquet and Speed Up?  I feel like Gnome having two "enhancements" while Salamando has large amount of "damage" spells is unnecessary.  And while at it, make Fire Bouquet's <damage + atk down> to <SE = Petrify> (no, it doesn't do damage, although Petrify SE will do damage to non-bosses who are vulnerable to Petrify).  Spell name is Stone Smoke (the color of spell should be changed to something brown/grey).  This will make some of the enemies a bit more difficult, but that's alright (Mech Rider will be abusing the heck out of it, but at least he won't be casting Speed Up on YOUR party though).  That way, players would have access (other than Lunar Magic) to cause petrify to enemies (assuming Mud Saber replaces Stone Saber).  It won't be as powerful as Stone Saber either (since it's not Petrify + damage).  It should remain its 3MP cost though (better than Balloon, but not as good as Blaze Wall).

Actually, Stone Fume sounds better.  Or Petrify Fume.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 26, 2019, 12:31:07 pm
Quote
@hmsong  Fire Bouquet (Salamnder) --> Frost Burn (Undine) -- Same graphic as Fire Bouquet, but blue color.  And causes Frost (another underused SE, which admittedly is not-useful SE in the game, since you can't follow up with melee).

<sigh>  Forgot to mention that I really adore this idea, except for the Frosty part (EDIT:  Actually, I've had an idea about that, but it might not be that good.  More later...).  Had to look back through half of the thread, just to prepare a list of the most fascinating ideas.

This one would give extra reason to switch Energy Absorb away from Undine...

          Me, The "Apprentice ROMHacker" (NOPE!):  Look, milady, being a vampire does not fall within your Mana Domain!  Leave that to the much-vaunted "King of Mavolia"!
     Undine:                                  Former "King of Mavolia".  <hands on hips> 8>
     Me:                                      Go swim in the corner... yoooou've been a naughty girl!  >_>
     Undine:                                  Awww... ;_;
     Shade:                                   Hehehe... I hasten to add that turning creatures into snowmen is a ludicrous way to curse one's enemies!  ;D
     Undine:                                  Shut up you old BAT!!  >:(
     Shade:                                   Come on over to my castle... and make me!  >:D


That's enough amateur comedy script from me, though... -_-

The idea would take quite a bit of implementation, for reasons already stated.  But hey... much obliged for inspiring me!  Albeit to very bad jest...  :D

Quote
@hmsong:  Or Petrify Fume.

Just out of interest, Trials of Mana uses Stone Cloud as the name for a damaging-spell that also (rarely) causes Petrify.  Strange name, but not too different from what you're suggesting...  :huh:



Quote
@Mr. X  1.  Captain duck and hell hound staying strong till the end with the firenado and the powered up engulf.

        2.  No love for the Lich huh?

I am all in favor of both of these.  Although, in the case of Mr. Thornytoes, I could do at least a few things myself, that could help Dark Lich's (almost) hopeless case.  But more on that a little later, it is unfortunately my time for bed.   :(

See you all again soon...  8)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: hmsong on September 26, 2019, 06:48:40 pm
@zoolgremlin

Aha (nervous laugh).

Anyways, I scrapped Fire bouquet --> Frost Burn idea, because of two reasons:
1. I couldn't find an Undine spell (among Primm's pool) that will go well into Primm's Salamando's spell pool.  Having said that, your HP Absorb <--> Fire Bouquet is an intriguing idea, but Salamando absorbing HP seems... weird.  You may have to make a 3-way trade (Luna?).
2. Fire enemies using Ice attacks (such as Spikey Tiger) seemed... weird, and vice versa.

There are several reason why I thought Fire Bouquet <--> Speed Up was a good idea (some were mentioned above):
1. Among Primm's spell list, Gnome has two enhance spells (why would Gnome have Speed Up?), and Salamando has two attack spells (too redundant).  Those spells switching places would actually work well.  It's for the same reason why I liked Herbal Boost -- Lunar Boost and Moon Energy (they both enhance attack -- no need for Luna to have both).
2. With the addition of Turbo's Mud Saber, there's no mean for Players to inflict petrify SE (other than Lunar Magic).  I wanted something that can do that.  It's also possible to keep Stone Saber, and make the new Gnome's Fire Bouquet into a <Damage + Mire> spell -- let's call it Dirt Nap or Grave Flare ("one foot in the grave", geddit?).
3. Those spells trading places won't make enemy behaviors weird.  In fact, it'll enhance them, in good ways.  Mech Riders, Ghoul, and Chess Knight (vanilla has Speed Up) gaining a petrify spell doesn't seem very out of place (I esp didn't like how Mech Rider ends up reflecting Speed Up to your party).  At the same time, Spikey Tiger and Imp (vanilla has Fire Bouquet) having Speed Up doesn't sound bad either -- Spikey Tiger's melee gets enhanced (along with all his melee skills, this enhances his Fire Breath, which is a long range melee skill), and Imp has two more fire spells (Fireball, Explode) and Cure Water.

Quote
Just out of interest, Trials of Mana uses Stone Cloud for a damaging-spell that also (rarely) causes Petrify.  Strange name, but not too different from what you're suggesting...

Yeah, I think SD3 has that.  But Stone Cloud seemed... so... unsatisfying name.  Besides, the Fire Bouquet graphic didn't seem all that fitting with the name Stone Cloud.

September 26, 2019, 09:12:01 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)

@zoolgremlin

Thank you for making the documents.  I am using that a lot to play around the game.

One question.  In [Monster Treasure Drop Table], you indicated for the 3rd byte:
Quote
In full decimal calculation, this means that there is a maximum of 25% probability, of the Drop value being Rare  (0-16dec=Rare, and 17-63dec=Common).

How do I do that?  For example, I tried to manipulate the odds of rare drop from Rabite (vanilla is 08 10 F8).  The vanilla drop rate is 08, and the rare drop rate is F8 (which according to SoM Drop Editor is ~11%).  So... how do I make the rare drop to 25%?  I tried the following:
Code: [Select]
@OFF $D03A50
RAW 40 10 D0

Didn't seem to affect the rare drop (killed ~50 rabites, only got 3 rare drops).  Any idea what I'm doing wrong?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: PerryR on September 27, 2019, 02:00:31 am
Very cool project, I will soon test the mod  :woot!:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
Post by: Queue on September 27, 2019, 04:14:41 pm
Version 2019-09-27:
https://ufile.io/gm7t3yug (https://ufile.io/gm7t3yug)

Changes:
- Changed Lava_Wave_-_Engulf to modify the Fire Gigas to use Fire Bouquet instead of Lava Wave
- Added Kethinov's Firenado hack (it replaces Exploder); needed some reworking to play nicely with other spell changes so may undergo further revision following his feedback
- Added Kethinov's Multiplicative Change Form hack (incompatible with Alternate_Transform_List)
- Added preliminary version of hmsong's Spell Balance Overhaul (feature name subject to change if hmsong prefers something else)
- Added hmsong's Balance\Mimic_Box_Dragon_Type
- Added hmsong's Alternate_Transform_List (incompatible with Multiplicative_Change_Form)
- Added hmsong's Alternate_Shape_Shifter_List
- Fixed mistake in Spell_System_Extensions reimplementation of Evil Gate; it was doing full damage when multi-target cast
- Possibly fixed Lunar_Magic_-_Celestial_Cascade Mimic Box transformation not hiding target's weapon; needs testing (and to make sure it doesn't change their attack power)
- Changed Paralyze replacement status effect to display "Quagmired" on the stats screen without Relocalized (still just "Mired" otherwise since Relocalized generally has dry literal terms in place of made up words)

Technical Changes:
- Added \0 global constant for use as a string terminator with TEXT in place of the event system \end
- Added two more chunks of data to Overwrite_Unused_Data

Note: Some new additions are Off by default; I haven't had a chance to playtest them and I'm not yet positive I'd personally use them.

Also: I really need a break from the spell stuff. I have a couple other things I really want to do, but constant spell stuff has kept me from them. For example, I really want to mess with turning the Goblin Village into a usable path to Gaia's Navel, but that'll likely take an entire week's Secret of Mana hacking time. I also have some ideas for improving how Turbo Mode interacts with AI since I've recently been digging through AI when working on spell stuff and seen some potential, but that'll also need multiple day's SoM time for research and experimenting.

hmsong, I got baseline versions of some of your stuff in this version (no changes to spell recharge times yet); don't hesitate to post changes you want made to them. What's there are rough drafts for you to review.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
Post by: Mr X on September 27, 2019, 05:02:34 pm
Firenado costs 0 mp, which I guess isn't supposed to
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
Post by: Queue on September 27, 2019, 05:40:30 pm
Oh yeah, whoops. I had set it to 0 while I was testing it. D'oh. That'll obviously be fixed next release.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 27, 2019, 06:56:16 pm
Well, I gotta say... this new Android I got yesterday works like a dream!  I regret not upgrading sooner...

I came back from the City absolutely used up, almost, and had NO energy for the project, nor was I in any fit mood.  Not too sure about using the forum on a cellphone, so just one thing quickly, then I'll come back later:

@Queue  Good to see you again, and many thanks for the latest update.  :happy:

I was half-anticipating that the "spell stuff" would end up taking over the project, damn... There's no shame on your part, feel free to go in your own direction for a while.  Glad to see "Quagmire" made it into the ZPS...  8)

Okay.  Time for my morning cuppa tea... it probably will take a while to fully recover from the fatigue of yesterday.  Not the fault of the project or anyone in the thread, RL stuff took over for for a bit... worse luck.  :(

See you all soon, for more of the good stuff.

September 27, 2019, 09:10:21 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Quote
hmsong:  How do I do that?  For example, I tried to manipulate the odds of rare drop from Rabite (vanilla is 08 10 F8).  The vanilla drop rate is 08, and the rare drop rate is F8 (which according to SoM Drop Editor is ~11%).  So... how do I make the rare drop to 25%?  I tried the following:

          @OFF $D03A50
          RAW  40 10 D0

Didn't seem to affect the rare drop (killed ~50 rabites, only got 3 rare drops).  Any idea what I'm doing wrong?

Sorry to keep you waiting, I really needed sleep, by the time I got back from the City, where my RL friend lives.  S***, what an intense day, she's like... the Duracell bunny.  You know, "keeps going and going and going and..." <long sigh>  :(

Anyway, the most I can tell you for now is that I got the explanation about byte-0x02 wrong, in the Monster Drops Table.  Everything else is 100% correct, we just need to work out the real maximum chance of a Rare Drop.  Which I thought I had, but nope!  I am going to load the Turbo ROM up now, and test with a hex-editor various values for byte 0x02, with the Rabite.  The forest West of Potos is ideal for this, soooo... please stand by.  The real answer is coming soon...  :)

Quote
hmsong:  Anyways, I scrapped Fire bouquet --> Frost Burn idea, because of two reasons:
     1.   I couldn't find an Undine spell (among Primm's pool) that will go well into Primm's Salamando's spell pool.  Having said that, your HP Absorb <--> Fire Bouquet is an intriguing idea, but Salamando absorbing HP seems... weird.  You may have to make a 3-way trade (Luna?).
     2.   Fire enemies using Ice attacks (such as Spikey Tiger) seemed... weird, and vice versa.

I have been considering very carefully the idea of a three-way (or other multi-way/s) trade with spells, which I will get to explaining once I've figured out the Rare Drop chance issue.  But I'm thinking I should put that in a Private Message... Queue has requested a break from spell-system reprogramming.   :-[
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
Post by: Queue on September 27, 2019, 10:14:39 pm
Oh, feel free to talk about spell stuff, I just want a break from actively working on it myself, so like, you can propose whatever, but unless you can make the changes yourself, I likely won't get to them for a while. If someone else implements said changes and posts the ZPS code (or at least an IPS) I'm fine with importing / integrating.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 27, 2019, 10:47:20 pm
@Queue  Okay!  I will keep what you say in mind, and may Comment further on spell-system-hacking later.  I have been working on a list of tweaks that I believe can be integrated into the ZPS further on, but naturally the list doesn't have to be complete by today, or anything like that.  First, let's have a prototype to look at, and we can perhaps go from there.  It's definitely a long-term thing...  8)

Just took an extended break from my desk to clear my head a little more, I'm all fired up to test Cap'n. Rabite and his good crew The Buck Teeth, for the issue regarding Rare Drop chance.  Back soon with a report on that and... other matters of intrigue on the "high seas".  Yaaarrgh...  :laugh:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
Post by: Mr X on September 28, 2019, 05:42:43 am
A thing I noticed since quite some time, when I don't have my weapons and I go at one of the options in the menu but press Y and exit it pops me back to the ring menu and I have to press Y again to exit it for good. Or when I have weapons on and you do that, you attack with your weapon. Surprised no one mentioned it or maybe I missed it.

Butchered explanation, you're welcome.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
Post by: hmsong on September 28, 2019, 06:16:58 am
@Queue

Wow.  I like what you did with my suggestion/codes.  I especially liked what you did with my Spell Balance Overhaul (all those IFs and IF_NOTs).  Of course, I may still change the contents in the future, but so far, I am absolutely satisfied with what you did.  You even improved my initial codes.  Thank you.

Indeed, it may have been wise not to apply my suggested Spell Recoil, yet.  There's been a lot of changes in the spells, and maybe more may come.  I see that you're tired of working on spell modification, so I'll do some of the work, and I hope you can help me to correct some parts of it.  I'm currently working on Fire Bouquet <--> Speed Up.  I'll post the code that I have so far later (I switched the spell animation and effects, but I couldn't change the spell colors nor target's colors).

Question:
Quote
Possibly fixed Lunar_Magic_-_Celestial_Cascade Mimic Box transformation not hiding target's weapon

What?  Mimic Box has weapons?  I heard that monsters have their own "weapons" that are not graphically shown.  Is that what you were talking about?



September 28, 2019, 06:33:04 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)

Okay, here's what I have so far (pwr, cost, effect, etc are easy enough, so I won't list them):

Code: [Select]
' {04: Grave Flare (Fire Bouquet modified) -- originally Speed Up spot}
@OFF $D02BA0 E0 85 53 05 53 05 53 05
@OFF $D02BA8 89 00 BE 6A 00 00 2D 8F
@OFF $D02BB0 89 00 BE 6A 00 00 2D 8F
@OFF $D02BB8 89 00 D4 6A 00 00 2D 8F
@OFF $D02BC0 89 00 D4 6A 00 00 2D 8F
@OFF $D02BC8 89 0E D4 6A 00 00 55 8F
@OFF $D02BD0 89 0E D4 6A 00 00 55 8F

' {10: Speed Up -- originally Fire Bouquet spot}
@OFF $D02EA0 32 86 D5 0B D5 0B D5 0B
@OFF $D02EA8 C9 00 06 68 00 00 02 8B
@OFF $D02EB0 C9 00 06 68 00 00 02 8B
@OFF $D02EB8 C9 00 06 68 00 00 02 8B
@OFF $D02EC0 C9 00 06 68 00 00 02 8B
@OFF $D02EC8 C9 00 1E 68 00 00 13 8B
@OFF $D02ED0 C9 00 1E 68 00 00 13 8B

@OFF $D8FD86
RAW A0 A7
@OFF $D8FD9E
RAW 08 A1

I succeeded in changing the spell animation and menu icon to what I wanted, but not the colors (spell animation, victim color, and menu icon) nor the names of these spells.  I tried to see other spells to see some sort of common grounds, but I just don't see it.  Specifically, I don't know which address affects which, and I also don't know the values for different colors for different addresses.

I'm eventually going to make different effects, depending on if Mud Saber and/or Mire is abled or disabled (using IF and IF_NOts).  But that's for later.

Also, are you planning on making your Inferno Barrier into Fire Wall + Inferno Barrier? (Fire Wall when enemy's on screen, and Inferno Barrier when enemy's not on screen)  Or would you keep the Inferno Barrier the way it is?  I want Salamander to have at least one attack spell...
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 28, 2019, 06:38:08 am
Quote
Mr. X:  Surprised no one mentioned it or maybe I missed it.  Butchered explanation, you're welcome.

I believe that's a side-effect of someone asking for this:  [Run_After_Area_Change}.  That Quality_Of_Life patch seems to force an extra button press in order to maintain running after transitioning, but it also forces one in other scenarios.  I've seen it myself, but didn't consider it a huge issue, since I can just turn the option off.   :huh:

Maybe you could test my suspicion by deselecting the Option on another patched ROM?  Hope that helps, slightly...  :)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
Post by: Mr X on September 28, 2019, 07:20:30 am
I believe that's a side-effect of someone asking for this:  [Run_After_Area_Change}.  That Quality_Of_Life patch seems to force an extra button press in order to maintain running after transitioning, but it also forces one in other scenarios.  I've seen it myself, but didn't consider it a huge issue, since I can just turn the option off.   :huh:

Maybe you could test my suspicion by deselecting the Option on another patched ROM?  Hope that helps...  :)

Ok thanks, I will test it later :)
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 28, 2019, 07:51:46 am
UPDATE:  New Version of Monster Treasure Drops Data Table now available.  Link to Folder:  Secret of Mana Information (Vanilla) (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1fAVv9BMl7N9wPnPzpCkSDkVYp0le1BkU?usp=sharing)

@hmsong  Okay!  That took a bit, however it would've taken a hell of a lot longer, if I hadn't thought to download SOMDropEdit myself and look at it.  That was necessary to understand more of your points made in previous Posts.  Soooo... I wasn't quite 'there' yet, in understanding, after all.  But that was no fault of yours.   :)

The download's .7z archive did not, unbelievably, contain an EXEcutable file to run the program, as shown on its ROMhacking page.  That didn't help (>:(), but this did:

     -     dropNotes.txt, in the archive's /res/data Folder.

This was just the document I needed to correct my own Google Drive one, which was very wrong about the exact use of byte 0x02.  Pity about that, if it had worked the way I thought, I would've called that pretty clever mathematics on Square's part.  (I should've known better.   >:()

EDIT:  Many thanks to deflaktor for the documentation I now have sitting on the pile, it helped a lot.  (Not sure whose fault it is that the .7z archive for SOMDropEdit had no .exe file, but no matter, I didn't need it.)

The updated information is now there, and the document's Version Date/Time has been moved up to today, just a few minutes ago.  As of now, I believe this to accord with everything that "dropNotes.txt", your prior Posts and my own observations/readings have shown me, and is therefore 100% correct.  U-unfortunately, being correct does not mean that it is all good news.   :(

If you were intending to alter Monster Drop Table values to make Rare Drops more likely than 11% (precise value is 10.9375%), I regret to inform you this is not possible just by altering the Drop Table.  You would have to alter something completely different as well, which I would have to look for and analyze, in a completely different Bank of the Vanilla ROM.

I will probably not get to that anytime soon, but it's on the cards to, at a minimum, detail the Vanilla algorithm that determines Common vs. Rare drops, in the Monster Drop Table document.  Regardless of whether I intend to change it or not.  Apologies for the confusion caused, I did not fully understand what you meant by the 11% thing, but I do now.  Hope that helps, happy hacking! (Weeeell, sorta.)   :D
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
Post by: hmsong on September 28, 2019, 08:07:32 am
@zoolgremlin

Aww, damn.  I read your new document.  Now, I see how that works.  Sigh.  I so wanted to raise the rare drop frequency.  Too bad.

Still, thanks anyway.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 28, 2019, 09:18:49 am
@hmsong  Ah, I almost forgot.  The alternative brute-force solution, is to take a leaf out of Timbo's book, and alter bytes 0x03 & 0x04 to contain the same Drop, eliminating the random factor by making it completely invisible.  That would allow a more simplified list of possible Drops in the game, which would at least work in the short-term...  :laugh:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
Post by: kethinov on September 29, 2019, 12:17:59 am
So has anyone considered a "Mana Saber" or "Tree Saber" for Dryad that inflicts sleep status? Seems like it would be a good addition to compliment Queue's work creating Shadow Saber. My thinking is it could replace Primm's version of Mana Magic and be unlocked by default, so Primm would have 3 Dryad spells and Popoi would have 2 until the Mana Beast fight. Perhaps we could even still require both characters to cast onto Randi during the final battle—Mana Saber from Primm and Mana Magic from Popoi. What does everyone think of this?

Okay, with that out of the way...

Was getting Firenado imported into Turbo and came across some issues (or whatever some of these count as):

Thanks for the analysis and refactoring. Most of your edits make sense to me, except...

- Firenado copies the entirety of Evil Gate's spell function; there are a few options to change the weakness check logic to make Evil Gate's spell function use the spell data's element for the test so that all Evil Gate variations use the same spell function:

I don't think reusing the Evil Gate spell definition is the right way to go.

It works fine if you replace Evil Gate with Shadow Saber, because the Evil Gate spell definition is effectively dummied out by Shadow Saber, so we can do what we like with it no problem.

But if you leave the original Evil Gate spell in place when applying Firenado (decline to use Shadow Saber), then this change has the side effect of making the original Evil Gate spell work on bosses not immune to Shade.

I don't really see a way to avoid copying the spell definition in that scenario so that we can have two Evil Gate spell definitions. One that works on bosses (Firenado, at higher cost) and one that doesn't (the original Evil Gate).

Also, I recommend disabling "More Useful Evil Gate" by default in the Turbo patcher now that we've replaced it with something better.

And while we're discussing defaults, why not enable "SFX Channel Limit" by default? Are there drawbacks to it to justify it being off by default?

Also, I changed things for Shape Shifter possibilities:
Code: [Select]
' Mimic Box --> (same)
' @OFF $D09CF3
' RAW 2D

' Rabite --> Mushgloom
@OFF $D09CFB
RAW 2A

' Eggplant Man --> Needlion
@OFF $D09D03
RAW 3C

' Captain Duck --> (same)
' @OFF $D09D0B
' RAW 41

' Beast Zombie --> Gremlin
@OFF $D09D10
RAW 46

I just didn't want players to have early access to Imp's Ring, so I got rid of Eggplant Man (Needlion's Needle Helm is alright, since you have access to Basilisk and National Scar, who have better helmet anyways).  And more importantly, all these guys are sort of signature/recurring monsters of Mana series (again, different types, different elements).  I didn't include Silktail, because Silktail is too weak at this point of game.

I recommend revising this list to:

1. Mimic Box (unchanged)
2. Mushgloom (replaces Rabite)
3. Eggplant Man (unchanged)
4. Ghoul (replaces Captain Duck)
5. Gremlin (replaces Beast Zombie)

This is basically the same as your list except restores Eggplant Man and drops Captain Duck for Ghoul.

Regarding Eggplant Man, I get your complaint about the Imp's Ring, but I don't think modifying Shape Shifter is the way to deal with the game's horrible unbalanced drop table. See my "Drop Table Balance" or "Equipment Progression Balance" hacks for comprehensive balance there. (They are mutually exclusive; applying two different philosophies of balance, but are both better than vanilla.)

Even if you're not interested in a comprehensive balance overhaul though, I don't see much harm in Eggplant Man having a chance to drop a vanilla Imp's Ring given how dangerous he is to fight, especially when first visiting Joch's cave. Seems kinda a like a worthy prize for putting up with him if a Shape Shifter spawns one.

Also IIRC if you drop Eggplant Man from Shape Shifter, he would become a missable monster.

Regarding Ghoul, he is missable, while Captain Duck is not, thus the replacement.

I like your addition of Mushgloom and Gremlin to the list because it's another way to make a missable monster not missable.

I also really liked one of the suggestions you PMd me to rename Firenado. I originally chose that name because it felt adequately milquetoast to match the original game's safe, bland names for things.

But your suggestion to rename it to "Hellfire" really grabbed me because—as you said—it would be a fitting homage to the original spell, Evil Gate.

I'm thinking a few versions of the hack are called for:

1. One that renames it to "Hellfire."
2. Another that renames it to "Heckfire" because, you know, "Heck Hounds" are a thing and the overzealous censorship in this game is hysterical.
3. Another that preserves the original name "Firenado" for those who enjoy the censorship but simply can't stomach the absolute silliness of "Heckfire."

In my next version of the hack, I'll offer all three of those options, with "Hellfire" being the default (with that variant renaming "Heck Hound" to "Hell Hound" in the process, because hey, why not).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
Post by: Mr X on September 29, 2019, 01:40:04 am
Hellfire sounds pretty dope tbh I agree. I would definitely change it to that.

As for Tree saber I don't see it necessary. I see the Mana magic as Dryads version of saber magic, but to activate the swords full power.

Also, am I the only one that wants to get rid of Moon Energy/herbal boost?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
Post by: hmsong on September 29, 2019, 05:54:01 am
@kethinov

Quote
I recommend revising this list to:

1. Mimic Box (unchanged)
2. Mushgloom (replaces Rabite)
3. Eggplant Man (unchanged)
4. Ghoul (replaces Captain Duck)
5. Gremlin (replaces Beast Zombie)

I get why you would want Eggplant Man.  You make some fair and valid points.  In addition to your "it dropping Watcher's Ring is too rare, and equipment balance is already pretty screwed up", it is just as iconic as Molebear species and it releases Needlion, which is basically stronger Molebear.  I will have to rethink this, but I'm trying to fulfill certain conditions:
  1. Different type + different element (Eggplant Man and Captain Duck have the same type and element)
  2. At least Cave of Courage level monster -- I want Shape Shifter's monsters to be a threat.
  3. Recurring monster in various other Mana games (at least in SD3 and/or Sword of Mana).

I kinda like Captain Duck, not just because it is iconic, but also because it is going use Firenado (Hellfire) with impunity, which is a real threat even at the end of the game (Thank you for that).  Yes, missable monsters is a big deal.  But you mitigated the whole missable monsters with your patch.  It's a good patch, which I'm sure people have used if missing out monsters was a big deal to them (I used them too for the cool unique equipments, before I discovered that Turbo patch opened up Pure Land and Sunk Continent).  And since your patch covers the whole missable monster thing, I just don't see the point in including missable monsters for Shape Shifter.  Besides, Shape Shifter can only cover for 4 monsters (one must be Mimic Box), which is nowhere near enough -- I want either All or None.

As for your Tree Saber being available early... I hesitate, because Dryad specifically said that his Mana Magic was sealed, and I don't want Primm to have 3 spells while Popoi only has 2 spells.  Besides, the two casters empowering Randi through mutual spells seems really cool.  And I mean, REALLY cool (impractical, but cool).

Thank you for applying (in the future) my idea about Hellfire.  I really like seeing my ideas come to life.  Esp when awesome programmers like you and Queue apply them.  It really makes me feel like I'm a part of the team (however little that may be).

As for my other idea... about Speed Up <--> Fire Bouquet... indeed, there may be problems with Turbo patches, since he is getting rid of Fire Wall, which is the other fire offense spell for Primm.  That's why I suggested the idea to him about Fire Wall when enemy is around, and Inferno Barrier when they're not.

I don't think Speed Up switching places with Fire Bouquet (Grave Flare) will be bad for the enemies (I stated numerous reasons above).  In addition, I think many people who don't know the existence of Turbo patch would love those spells switching -- In addition to giving Primm an attack spell early in the game, her having two fire attack spells is just too boring (which is why I suggested you to make a separate patch for Romhacking, assuming Grave Flare is a [damage + Atk down] spell).

I think Heck Hound is already named Hellhound in Relocalization, but you already knew that.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 29, 2019, 06:18:57 am
@kethinov  About the Leaf/Tree/Mana/dunno Saber idea, I'm really of two minds about it.  Without giving 3 extra slots to Shade and Lumina, which is as far away from simple as it's possible to get, and/or increasing the number of spells per Elemental to 4, which is also not simple, there is basically no way to add Leaf Saber without losing something else.  I personally consider keeping Mana Magic active (with the power of "friendship"), part of both the story and the challenge, when fighting the Mana Beast.  On the other hand, Timbo's World of Balance project is going to replace the Sprite's Mana Magic version, with a special attack spell that bypasses Wall.  That sounds interesting... so what else could we all stand to lose?  Good question!   :-\

Following on from the idea of multi-swapping spells around, I'd be thinking about giving Wall to some other Elemental, and putting Leaf Saber in its place.  In that hypothetical case, I daresay recolouring Wall might have to happen.  Where would Wall go?  <shrug>

What about the spell to lose altogether, if it comes to that?  Moon Energy/Herbal Boost (why, though)?  One of the Fire spells (five fire-damage spells never made sense, really)?  That rather depends on who you ask, as we don't all play or envision this game the same way.

I wasn't going to go into any detail about what I would do regarding spells just yet.  Not because of the earlier concern that Queue wouldn't like that (turns out, he's all in favor of any talk about SoM in here), but a new concern.  If it were up to me alone to swap/add spells, it basically wouldn't happen, as I have zero talent in graphic art.  Whether it be for the SNES or some other system.  Best I can do is imagine other possible spells to fill in extra slots, and/or think about rearranging stuff like Energy Absorb.  The latter would be aiming to make what's already there, more sensible than Vanilla's way of doing things.  (No, I wasn't thinking about giving Energy Absorb to Salamando, of all Spirits... not sure how hmsong got confused about that.   :huh:)

I also still don't know how the game points to spell animations, so swapping them around is not something I can do yet.  I'd be looking for that, but I'm still recovering from the other day.  Another 24 hours max should see me back up to full energy.  <whew>

Naturally, the addition of Leaf Saber would be just one more option amongst a multitude, though.  So if you had to lose another spell to have it on, at least the other spell wouldn't be gone forever.  You could just patch another ROM differently, and have a slightly different spell repertoire for another playthrough.   :)

Not sure if any of that helps.  Replacing/adding content is way more complicated than tweaking stuff that's already there.  Soooo... <shrug>

EDIT:  Renaming Heck Hound to Hellhound, and Firenado to Hellfire really floats my boat, however.   :laugh:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
Post by: Mr X on September 29, 2019, 09:23:22 am
Changing Moon Energy to a different spell helps the game balance. It falls in line to maximizing your damage also. For example in the final battle mana magic+herbal boost allows you to deal 999 damage per hit.

Without that you would cast spells that would maximize tour damage. Lunar boost (which raises atk), def down spell. It falls in line of making spells more useful which from what I can tell we all want that.

This is all just for the far future tho, as of now I wouldn't even bother that much about balance, until Queue has more or less finished what he was after.


I checked Timbo's world of balance thread the other day and I liked how he adressed that issue. Turn Moon energy into a stat reducing spell for enemies (def) while giving poison to Acid Storm seemed like a solid idea for example.

But anyway.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
Post by: kethinov on September 29, 2019, 10:48:00 am
Just to be clear, the Mana Saber concept would not replace Mana Magic. It would be an enhancement on top of it's existing behavior.

Existing behavior:

1. Popoi has two spells on Dryad.
2. Primm has two spells on Dryad.
3. During the Mana Beast fight, each get a basically identical Mana Magic spell unlocked.
4. Both need to be cast on Randi for him to do damage.

What I'm suggesting:

1. Popoi has two spells on Dryad.
2. Primm has three spells on Dryad, including the new Mana Saber.
3. During the Mana Beast fight, Popoi gets Mana Magic unlocked.
4. Both Mana Saber and Mana Magic need to be cast on Randi for him to do damage.

This would change absolutely nothing about the story dialog or the friendship concept.

That said, I am a fan of Timbo's "Mana Burn" concept as well, which would replace Popoi's Mana Magic with a Dryad damage spell. If my idea of a Mana Saber were implemented and Timbo's idea of a "Mana Burn" were also implemented, I think if the two ideas were combined, we would have to drop the friendship idea so the Mana Beast could take damage from Mana Burn or anyone with Mana Saber cast on them, but only in that specific scenario when those two hypothetical patches are combined.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
Post by: Mr X on September 29, 2019, 11:52:22 am
Just to be clear, the Mana Saber concept would not replace Mana Magic. It would be an enhancement on top of it's existing behavior.

Existing behavior:

1. Popoi has two spells on Dryad.
2. Primm has two spells on Dryad.
3. During the Mana Beast fight, each get a basically identical Mana Magic spell unlocked.
4. Both need to be cast on Randi for him to do damage.

What I'm suggesting:

1. Popoi has two spells on Dryad.
2. Primm has three spells on Dryad, including the new Mana Saber.
3. During the Mana Beast fight, Popoi gets Mana Magic unlocked.
4. Both Mana Saber and Mana Magic need to be cast on Randi for him to do damage.

This would change absolutely nothing about the story dialog or the friendship concept.

That said, I am a fan of Timbo's "Mana Burn" concept as well, which would replace Popoi's Mana Magic with a Dryad damage spell. If my idea of a Mana Saber were implemented and Timbo's idea of a "Mana Burn" were also implemented, I think if the two ideas were combined, we would have to drop the friendship idea so the Mana Beast could take damage from Mana Burn or anyone with Mana Saber cast on them, but only in that specific scenario when those two hypothetical patches are combined.

Ah I see. I dig that.
In that case what about making the Mana Saber and Mana Burn unlockable at half power after visiting the mana tree, while they get upgraded to full power after you beat the Dark Lich?

It gives those hidden spells more purpose prior to the Mana Beast fight vs Vampire Lord, Dread Slime and Dark Lich, instead of just one battle. I wont mind either way, just proposing an idea.


Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
Post by: hmsong on September 29, 2019, 07:10:02 pm
@kethinov

Hmm.  Your idea is cool, but I can't help but think it may be complicated to program.  In addition to Tree Saber (one that sleeps) needs to do both Sleep SE and Mana magic 1, the target needs to change in the middle of a game (vanilla has Mana Magic 1 target Randi only).  What's more, Tree Saber (if it's like any other sabers) lasts # of hits, whereas Mana Magic lasts # of seconds.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 29, 2019, 09:43:08 pm
Quote
kethinov:  Just to be clear, the Mana Saber concept would not replace Mana Magic. It would be an enhancement on top of it's existing behavior.

Whoops.  Should've read your original Post a bit more carefully, somehow that part slipped right on through.   On the plus side, though, my fatigue is gone, and my mouth-pain has greatly diminished.  :-[

Okay!  I'll put my hand up and vote for Leaf/Mana Saber.   (If there is a vote... sounds like a pretty long-term thing to plan.  :D)

I suspect that a branching condition, to make Primm's proposed spell work both in and out of the final battle as described, would be necessary.  That would at least mean moving Mana Magic (Primm)'s spell function somewhere else to fit in the new code, probably.  Can't think offhand, what else would be required to make it all work.

As for the "Mana Burn" idea from Timbo, an interesting thought just occurred to me.  Perhaps if Burst were changed to be a spell that can bypass Wall, an extra damage-spell that can do so against the Mana Beast would not be necessary.  That would help the monsters too, potentially, because some of them can also cast Burst.  So there would at least be one spell that a player can't protect him/herself against, using Wall.  Making it also more useful than Lucent Beam, if Mana Beast were given it.  (Most of these ideas aren't trivial to make, but they're nice to think about, I suppose...  :laugh:)

Any thoughts about that, everyone?
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
Post by: kethinov on September 29, 2019, 11:29:29 pm
Been playtesting a build. Found some bugs:

1. Functional Fashion doesn't work when stamina is regenerating.

2. Functional Fashion doesn't work when poisoned.

3. With No Default Equipment off and Functional Fashion on, the Functional Fashion color on Randi doesn't apply immediately in the intro cutscene (ditto for Primm's intro cutscene).

4. There is a strange new bug related to pausing to the menu rings: Pause to menu rings, go to levels, then unpause. As you unpause, your character will swing their weapon, apparently a hangover effect from when the attack button was pressed to open levels.

5. I observed a very difficult to reproduce bug with how gather party members and/or the new running hacks combine: In Elinee's castle, I did a continuous run downstairs to the jail to talk to the guard who opens the bridge. One of my characters got stuck up the stairs and didn't teleport to me in time before I talked to the guard. Talking to the guard is supposed to gather party members, but with one of my allies offscreen, my game softlocked (party never gathered, dialog never started). I have a savestate where I'm stuck in this state I can share, but reproducing it reliably is tough.

6. Related to #5, when you run up and down stairs, your allies tend to get left behind.

7. In addition to my comments above about Firenado, it appears the Firenado code isn't taking the Salamando element into effect. Enemies strong against Shade appear to be immune to Firenado. However, all this would be moot if we ultimately agree to restore my approach of creating a fully forked spell definition instead of trying to share Evil Gate's.

8. Later Midge Mallet is broken in Turbo. This is my fault. The 1.1 version of the patch used the wrong code. I fixed it: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4382/

Also I published a new hack called "Upbeat Elinee's Castle" https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4693/

This hack changes the music in Elinee's Castle to "Did You See The Ocean" throughout the entire castle.

In the original game "Did You See The Ocean" is played at the very end of the castle only for a single room. With this hack the track is played throughout the entirety of the castle to spice things up a bit since the original song played throughout most of the castle "Into The Thick of It" is a bit overused and the "Did You See The Ocean" variant of the song is a bit underused.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
Post by: hmsong on September 30, 2019, 04:46:28 am
@kethinov

#5 happens sometimes in the whip tiles too.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
Post by: Mr X on September 30, 2019, 06:26:10 am
Yeah it's weird seeing enemies imune to shade be immune to firenado also. Enemies immune to salamando should be immune to it.

Is it possible to make undead enemies immune to Firenado but not weak to Undine?

So we would have:

- Undead being immune to Firenado but not weak to Undine

- Salamando immune enemies that are weak to undine being immune to firenado.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
Post by: hmsong on September 30, 2019, 07:06:37 am
@kethinov

I tried the new Later Midge Mallet patch.  It seems I can't get the Midge Mallet at all now (at least, not right after getting the Wind Drum).  I even dripped off King Matango, and checked again, but nope.  Can you check?



@Queue

Your Firenado seems to do the regular Evil Gate (works on all except bosses), rather than kethinov's intended effect (works on all except Salamando enemies).

Also, the new spells (Shadow Saber, Mud Saber, Inferno Barrier) are all in CAPS, even in Relocalized.  Was that intended?

Also, could you change my [Mimic_Box_Dragon_Type] to [Enemy_Type/Element_Change]?  I may add more changes to the monsters (probably gonna add more Fire element monsters, since there's so few Fire monsters in the game).  And for my [Alternate_Transform_List] and [Alternate_Shape_Shifter_List], could you put in the description, "Intended to be used with [Enemy_Type/Element_Change]"?

Thank you.
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
Post by: kethinov on September 30, 2019, 10:57:26 am
@kethinov

I tried the new Later Midge Mallet patch.  It seems I can't get the Midge Mallet at all now (at least, not right after getting the Wind Drum).  I even dripped off King Matango, and checked again, but nope.  Can you check?

lol this is what I get for only testing the first half of it. I haven't made it far enough in my playtest yet to test the other side of it. When I get there, I'll fix it (again / for real).
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
Post by: zoolgremlin on September 30, 2019, 11:27:56 am
FUN FACT:
(well, it's fun to me, but I'm a weirdo like that...)

Bank 0x00, which contains among other things, the long algorithm for calculating weapon damage, and the monster/character Stat loading functions, has quite a few patched-out bytes of code.  Those bytes contain the value 0xEA, which is the OpCode for NOP (No Operation) in 65816 assembly.  It'd be quite an undertaking, but there may be opportunities there to condense the code in Bank 0x00, or use the NOP'd bytes to do other things inside of the code already there, for example.  Although, you may all know this already.  EDIT:  Turns out Bank 0x00 needs most if not all of those NOPs, due to the number of free cycles needed for certain operations.  Queue just set me straight on this, so condensing the code is probably NOT an option.  Shame on me...  :-[

I've used a dummied-out space myself in one instance... to double the Mana Seed Bonus granted to WeaponAttackPower, if a Hit% check is passed.

Next table coming up in my Folder, when I finally start it, will be to do with Shops.  I'd better check my notes on that shortly...  :laugh:
Title: Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
Post by: Queue on September 30, 2019, 05:19:02 pm
Mr X, like zoolgremlin suggested, I think the input screwiness you found is related to Quality_of_Life\Run_After_Area_Change; it causes quite a few little issues. If you discover that's not the case let me know, but that one's on my list of stuff to get reviewed for improvement.

I assume regarding Moon Energy you're pointing out how huge of a damage bonus it is where it makes other buffs unnecessary?

Regarding undead enemies getting special cased on resists, it's certainly possible. In vanilla, I think the only code that actually makes a weakness affect damage is in the spell functions where a weakness becomes a 2x multiplier on incoming damage. If you wanted analyzer to not show the salamando undead enemy as being weak to undine, that'd get more complicated, and / or if you wanted the undead enemy to literally not be weak to undine (undine not set in their weakness flags), same deal, but if you just wanted spell immunities / weaknesses / non-weaknesses to use those rules it wouldn't be too difficult.



zoolgremlin, where are you seeing lots of NOPs in bank 0x00? If it's ~4 or ~8 between code like STA $004203 and LDA $004217, those aren't dummied out code, they're intentional delays to wait on the SNES's multiplication / division. Multiplication needs 8 cycles (3 NOPs + the result read) and division 16 cycles (7 NOPs + the result read) to completely finish (there are circumstances where an early read is valid, but I won't get into that here). While you can do work between starting a multiply / divide and reading the result, there does need to be time wasted for the result to be calculated so there has to be something between the write that starts them and the read of the results (at least on real hardware and in more accurate emulators).



hmsong, all enemies have a weapon, and some have two that they switch between, though most don't have a visible graphic. The issue with transforming an enemy into a mimic is if their weapon did have a visible graphic, it'd still be visible even after they turned into a mimic. So an Ice Thug holding a little fork would turn into a mimic with a little fork floating beside it. Most of an enemy's attack damage comes from their weapon instead of their base stats, if I recall correctly.

Colors for spell stuff is really annoying. It's almost always a 1-byte number that indicates which palette to use (and I think they're generally 5-color palettes), but said numbers are sort've all over the place. The spell icons are defined at the end of bank 0x18: starting at $D8FD7E, each spell is 2 bytes starting there with Earth Slide, where the first byte is the icon number and the second is the palette number. Colors for spell animations is worse: sometimes it's the first byte per group of 8 bytes in the spell data for animations (in your Grave Flare example, the "89" at the start of 6 of the lines is the palette number), but some animations don't use that value and instead have hardcoded palette numbers in their animations (which are primarily but not entirely in bank 0x11). Look at the annotated spell data for Firenado (can search for $D02DE0 in the ZPS); it's a lot to take in, but may give you more info to go on.

I don't currently plan to let Inferno Barrier also cast Blaze Wall; merging the two behaviors just seems to be too complicated to make work sensibly. Inferno Barrier's spell function is set up to be extensible to apply other status effects in the future (it doesn't actually currently, but it's easy for me to add), so for example, it could be set up as a "Medusa Skin" buff that could be given to Basilisks that they cast on themselves and / or allies where meleeing them would petrify the attacker, etc. Tying in an offensive spell would currently require hardcoding the offensive spell behavior. I did give it some consideration though.

One issue with swapping a detrimental spell and a beneficial spell is the enemies won't automatically change who they target; so if Fire Bouquet becomes Speed Up, enemies who originally cast Fire Bouquet on the players will instead cast Speed Up on the players. You'll have to find the spell cast command in their AI and change the target (and if changing from beneficial to detrimental, possibly also add AI code so they locate a target before casting). The spell target value in spell data affects who the players can target; enemies ignore it.

The spell names being in ALL CAPS means you have Text\Proper-caser Off, but it does make sense for Relocalized to also trigger Proper-caser behavior even without Proper-caser, so I'll change that.

Is [Enemy_Type_And_Element_Changes] an okay name? I've been trying to avoid using non-text characters in feature names (- hyphen has been the only exception). Added the "Intended for use with..." note to the [Alternate_*_List] descriptions.



kethinov, a Dryad Saber sounds neat. Probably a fair bit of work but maybe I'm overthinking it. Vanilla doesn't provide for a Dryad-specific saber spell function, but it doesn't take much code in the vanilla scheme to add one. More complicated might be working out the specifics of having it mesh with the Mana Magic logic, but I expect in the sprite's Mana Magic spell function it could be changed to check if the Dryad Saber is applied and use that as the basis for overwriting with Mana Magic. Probably even enough space by repurposing the girl's Mana Magic spell function to fit whatever new code is needed.

I don't think it makes sense to try and work out a scenario where both a Dryad Saber and Manaburn could coexist. It's not unthinkable to have patches be mutually exclusive.

I hadn't considered that someone would want vanilla Evil Gate and Firenado at the same time. Seems crazy to me but whatever, I'll support that combination. Ignoring that the first attempt at a generic Evil Gate function failed (not actually sure what I messed up on as it worked during testing, so I must've botched something when rewriting some of it), a generic form is still my plan if both More Useful Evil Gate and Firenado are On at the same time since it's ~73 bytes of waste otherwise, plus more if someone wants to add a third element variant, etc. And to that end, More Useful Evil Gate and Firenado both being on by default make the generic form the default; if in the future the Map Display Settings table ends up fully populated, I simply wouldn't support some mixed application of the three (something would win out and force the others On/Off to avoid the overlap).

I'm more interested in knowing your thoughts on removing the multi-target penalty so that use on normal enemies has more value (at its exorbitant mana cost) and / or overhauling the damage logic so that level 0 isn't functionally the same as level 8 once you hit bosses with enough health. My initial thought is a damage cap based on spell level so that the mana cost can be brought back down; in my play testing over the past couple days where I had boss health drastically pumped up, I found it unusable at 12 mana and wound up using Fire Bouquet, Acid Storm and sacrificial Burst for spell damage more than anything. I also wound up fast-forwarding during level 8 Burst sp