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General Category => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Tharthan on June 11, 2016, 03:32:23 pm

Title: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: Tharthan on June 11, 2016, 03:32:23 pm
I've been a Nintendo gamer my whole life. I've only briefly played other companies' consoles over relatives' and friends' houses.

Nintendo seems to be a sinking ship when it comes to being a first party developer for its own consoles. I'm pretty sure they are banking on the NX being a success, but there's no guarantee of that.

I'm with Nintendo so long as they are a first party developer, but Nintendo is more and more looking like Sega did back in the late '90s.

I don't want to abandon Nintendo. I even have a little bit of stock in them (I have for a good while now). I like their products, their games, and their family-friendly attitude. But I'm going to have to do something if they leave first party development.

Should I stick with PC gaming if they go down, or is there a console that I may like instead that I ought to go to?
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: Disch on June 11, 2016, 04:01:59 pm
It's undoubtedly better for everyone (except arguably Nintendo employees/stockholders) if Nintendo goes the Sega route and stops making consoles and focuses on software/portable.  If Mario/Zelda games started coming out for PC instead of being Nintendo exclusives, that'd be freaking sweet. That way you can get their awesome games without having to buy their ridiculous, awkward, gimmicky consoles.

Look at these freaking things.  What planet are they from?

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2011/06/wii-u-controller-press-1307466616.jpg
http://keera.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/wiimote.jpg

Why do I need a 2nd screen?  Why would I want to move my entire head to look away from my giant TV screen towards my lap so I can see an image on a smaller, shittier display?  Or hear sound effects coming from a smaller, shittier speaker?  Why the fuck is there a microphone?  And a camera?


Nintendo has the entire concept of accessories backwards.  They keep designing gimmicky controllers and then try to shoe-horn games into using them.  The right way to do it is to start with an awesome game idea that the standard controller doesn't quite work with, and then make a controller for it specifically.  Franchises where this has proven remarkably successful is DDR, Guitar Hero, Rock Band, etc.

I'm reminded of this Let's Play video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqoqueKeEFk

These guys are clear Nintendo fanboys and sing the praise of the console about how creative and interesting it is -- but then at several points through the video they're wrestling with the stupid gimmicky controls.

This part here is the perfect example of what I mean:
https://youtu.be/eqoqueKeEFk?t=13m40s

Mike:  "It says look at the gamepad"
James:  "I like looking at the TV.  I'll look at what I want"


They say that in jest, but he's fucking right.  There's no reason he should have to look at the gamepad -- the game is forcing you into using a stupid gimmick.


Ramble Ramble Ramble
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: MathUser2929 on June 11, 2016, 04:04:05 pm
I'd go with Sony. Not as family friendly, but it's Japanese based. So it may get more Nintendo games than xbox.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: SunGodPortal on June 11, 2016, 04:06:52 pm
I think consoles in general are going to be dying out. They just aren't as necessary anymore.

Find yourself a used PS2 (you can even still find them brand new in the box) and you'll have awesome games for years to come. They are also back-compatible with PS1 games no matter what model/version/revision you buy. This may not be your thing, but it's also very easy to get them to play burned games as well.*

*I personally don't feel bad about pirating old games because the people that are still hanging onto them want too much for them. The developers already got their money so I don't really care about padding someone else's wallet just because I want to play a classic such as Valkyrie Profile (200 fucking dollars!!!) in my native language (there are a zillion JP copies for cheap, but who cares?). I also prefer to play undubs (because bad dubs can completely destroy a game's atmosphere) and these obviously cannot be purchased anywhere.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: FAST6191 on June 11, 2016, 04:13:02 pm
Why does them going third party matter? Indeed I might argue them continuing to be first party is not necessarily a good thing (they don't seem to be able to design hardware any more and their business practices don't seem to be the best for third party devs). I imagine they would probably wrangle a way to get their chosen controller format on whatever you like too, though I am not sure they added much to the controller world that stuck since popularising the analogue stick.

From where I sit Nintendo are the only company still doing 3d platforming*, everything else they do seems to have been picked up and done, in many cases better than comparable efforts (compare modern rayman to New Super Mario Brothers), by other devs. I would love to see people take the mario kart formula and run with it rather than try to clone it -- last time it happened we got Diddy Kong Racing, these days we seem to get not even "good" clones like Lego Racers, Digimon racing and Crash nitro kart and instead Nascar's effort.

*other than Rare's collection of rereleases most things seem to have gone "action adventure" rather than 3d spacial platforming. I do not know whether we would see a revival, even something along the lines of the recent glut of space games, if Nintendo left the space a bit freer.

And if I can stifle the giggles at the phrase family friendly then Nintendo are so far from the last bastion of it that it is not funny. Sure you can can usually have a very basic algorithm along the lines of if developer = Nintendo and game =/= advance wars* then no tits, blood, harsh language or drugs will be in the game. If you are that lazy in game selection with needs such as that though then your monocle deserves to be shattered when it falls in shock.

*given Nintendo's treatment of the series that is possibly a redundant part of that.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: SunGodPortal on June 11, 2016, 04:23:25 pm
Quote
I would love to see people take the mario kart formula and run with it rather than try to clone it -- last time it happened we got Diddy Kong Racing, these days we seem to get not even "good" clones like Lego Racers, Digimon racing and Crash nitro kart and instead Nascar's effort.

Just want to mention that LEGO Racers was awesome and since you're a Nintendo guy Tharthan, you may want to check this out on the N64 if you haven't already. I remember it being a little better than the PS1 version. It's fun (family friendly) game and you can build your own cars and racers. The more you win the more blocks you get to choose from and the power-ups are really cool. One even works kinda like a worm-hole that allows you to jump ahead on the track. Great stuff.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: Tharthan on June 11, 2016, 04:35:29 pm
They keep designing gimmicky controllers and then try to shoe-horn games into using them.

Actually, Disch, the Wii U Gamepad allows me to play Wii U games portably (albeit only from a room or two away). I'm able to play Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze and Super Mario 3D World from my bedroom, rather than having to go into the living room with the big flat screen television. It's almost like playing the game on a 3DS. It's not bad, frankly. I'd rather save the big flat screen television experience for if I have friends over playing the games with me.

compare modern rayman to New Super Mario Brothers

I dunno,  New Super Mario Bros. is pretty fun. I'm actually thinking of buying some (if not all) of the DLC for New Super Mario Bros. 2 when I get the chance to buy an eShop points card. However, since you mentioned Rayman, I may well consider buying the 3DS Rayman game too.

If you are that lazy in game selection with needs such as that though then your monocle deserves to be shattered when it falls in shock.

It's not about laziness. I just prefer family-friendly stuff. I mean, I myself don't swear or anything like that, and I prefer family-friendliness because it is comforting and relaxing.

Just want to mention that LEGO Racers was awesome and since you're a Nintendo guy Tharthan, you may want to check this out on the N64 if you haven't already. I remember it being a little better than the PS1 version. It's fun (family friendly) game and you can build your own cars and racers. The more you win the more blocks you get to choose from and the power-ups are really cool. One even works kinda like a worm-hole that allows you to jump ahead on the track. Great stuff.

I'll look into it. Thanks!
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: KaioShin on June 11, 2016, 04:45:39 pm
Even if Nintendo would finally abandon making consoles (let's hope so for the sake of everyone) they'd still make games. They'd just be on other platforms.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: Lilinda on June 11, 2016, 05:02:15 pm
Limiting yourself to only one brand is missing out, Tharthan. Trust me on this.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: SunGodPortal on June 11, 2016, 05:17:55 pm
Quote
Limiting yourself to only one brand is missing out, Tharthan. Trust me on this.

For real. I remember I always used to just eat legit Doritos. Turns out I like some of the cheap knock-offs just as good (not that they really taste all that similar, but they provide variety).
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: FAST6191 on June 11, 2016, 05:21:21 pm
Just want to mention that LEGO Racers was awesome

Yeah I thought as I typed that I might be accused of disparaging it.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: Tharthan on June 11, 2016, 05:22:04 pm
Turns out I like some of the cheap knock-offs just as good (not that they really taste all that similar, but they provide variety).

What knock-offs are there? I've never seen Doritos knock-offs in the market.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: SunGodPortal on June 11, 2016, 05:50:19 pm
Quote
Yeah I thought as I typed that I might be accused of disparaging it.

I didn't think you were dissing it or anything. I just wanted to throw my two cents in since I had played two diff versions of it. I figured Tharthan may be interested in it given the criteria and his affinity for Nintendo.

Quote
What knock-offs are there? I've never seen Doritos knock-offs in the market.

Seems like they are usually just called something to the effect of "nacho cheese flavored tortilla chips" or something similar. The ones made by Lance (they make a bunch of diff snack foods like crackers and such) are probably some of my favs. I think I've only seen them in vending machines though. Golden Flake also makes some called Maizetos. I like the Lance version better though. The Maizetos are kinda garlic-y or something. It's been a while since I've had any Tom's, so I don't remember how good they were. Their Hot Fries are totally awesome though. I think there's also a brand of nacho cheese chips that I've only seen at Walmart but I can't remember the brand. May have just been the great value kind, I guess.

(http://www.taquitos.net/im/sn/Maizetos-NC.jpg)(http://snyderslance.com/images/toms_cornandtortilla.png)

I was just thinking, you may not have seen some of these because I think a few of them are primarily distributed in the south.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: tvtoon on June 11, 2016, 05:52:33 pm
Should I stick with PC gaming if they go down, or is there a console that I may like instead that I ought to go to?
PC is going down just like Nintendo, the market is shrinking and hardware developers now devise trojans inside chips on a monthly basis (http://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/intel-me-and-why-we-should-get-rid-of-me), you are wasting your time.

Anyway, if you keep optimist there are enough Nintendo, SEGA, Sony, MicroSoft etc games to play for your entire life. Nintendo games already have been dropping quantity and quality largely, through the last years, and they can't even keep up simple ideas anymore. :)
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: Tharthan on June 11, 2016, 06:25:13 pm
I was just thinking, you may not have seen some of these because I think a few of them are primarily distributed in the south.

That's most likelily it.

PC is going down just like Nintendo, the market is shrinking and hardware developers now devise trojans inside chips on a monthly basis (http://www.fsf.org/blogs/licensing/intel-me-and-why-we-should-get-rid-of-me), you are wasting your time.

Are you talking about personal computers as a whole? If so, then I'm not sure what the replacement is supposed to be. I don't use tablets nor do I use cyberphones (a.k.a. "smartphones"), and I don't consider them suitable replacements for the personal computer. I had two iPod Touches over the course of a few years, but I eventually grew tired of them and sold them both.

What seems to be happening with the mainstream PC OSes is that they are merging with the cyberphone industry ( confer Windows 8 ). Thankfully, I use Lubuntu and don't have to deal with the likes of post-Windows 7 Microsoft.

Anyway, if you keep optimist there are enough Nintendo, SEGA, Sony, MicroSoft etc games to play for your entire life.

That's true. That's something to smile about.  :)
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: Disch on June 11, 2016, 06:26:16 pm
Actually, Disch, the Wii U Gamepad allows me to play Wii U games portably (albeit only from a room or two away). [snip] It's almost like playing the game on a 3DS.

So it combines all the shitty parts of a portable device (small screen, have to tilt your neck down, have to hold it upright, being as ergonomic as a plank of wood) without the solitary benefit of actually being portable.

Umm.... "cool"?

Oh wait... no, "cool" isn't the word I'm looking for... "ridiculous and lame" is what I meant.  ;P

Quote
I'd rather save the big flat screen television experience for if I have friends over playing the games with me.

"Save"?  What, does it cost something?


I don't know, Tharthan, this sounds to me like you're just trying to rationalize a really stupid gimmick as not being as stupid as it actually is.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: Tharthan on June 11, 2016, 06:49:37 pm
Umm.... "cool"?

Oh wait... no, "cool" isn't the word I'm looking for... "ridiculous and lame" is what I meant.  ;P

It doesn't feel uncomfortable when I lie down in my bed and play a game on the Gamepad. So it definitely beats something like the Wiimote; a controller that I never liked.

"Save"?  What, does it cost something?

No, but I'd rather save the best experience for the best situation, y'see.

I don't know, Tharthan, this sounds to me like you're just trying to rationalize a really stupid gimmick as not being as stupid as it actually is.

Maybe it's a stupid gimmick, but it hasn't caused much harm to my gaming experience. The games that I've played allow me to play them on the Gamepad or on the television, and don't require me to look down on the Gamepad for much of anything if I wanted to play them on the television.

The only game that has caused me to look at the television when I am playing on the Gamepad or to look at the Gamepad when playing on the television is the game Nintendo Land.
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Post by: FCandChill on June 11, 2016, 10:56:13 pm
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Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: Disch on June 11, 2016, 11:08:14 pm
The GameCube controller is used by Smash Bros. professionals for a reason.

I don't have beef with the Gamecube controller.  Or even with the Gamecube in general.  NGC was like the last non-gimmicky console Nintendo made.

But it's 15 years and 3 generations old.

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Post by: FCandChill on June 11, 2016, 11:37:42 pm
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Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: KingMike on June 12, 2016, 01:25:23 am
And, well... said tiny discs. That limited space to like a third of a normal DVD.
And not being able to play DVDs was a huge deal-breaker in 2001.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: jink640 on June 12, 2016, 10:25:35 am
At this point, I'm almost O.K. with Nintendo banking out. Hell, most of the games that I liked on the Wii/Gamecube were third party anyway. The P.C. gaming market is still growing, with NVIDIA doubling my initial investment of $60 within a year. Same goes for many other hardware manufacturers. However, consoles have 3 roads they can take from here.

1. Die out

2. Turn into computers including being able to upgrade parts. (Kinda already there)

3. By some miracle people start to buy consoles again and we can all go back to the happy days of 12 years ago. (highly unlikely)

Honestly I'm worried about PC as well, mostly because of Win 10 being shit, mac being a joke, and Linux not getting the amount of gaming support that its competitors have.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: magictrufflez on June 12, 2016, 11:50:15 am
Speaking as someone who got a lot out of his Wii/WiiU before I had to stop playing console games altogether of the last year or so, I enjoyed the systems quite a bit, although never for the gimmicky motion-control games.  I tended to play more traditional games on them, but I never really regretted the purchases.

IMO, as long as there are enough games on a system worth playing, I have no problem getting a new system.  And I have the patience to wait around and buy a used system too if there are only a few games I want to play on it too.  I'm definitely not going to be at a point where I can afford to even keep up with new games I really really like for a long time anyways...
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: BlackDog61 on June 12, 2016, 11:55:56 am
I feel somewhat not related to opinions which have been expressed (except for magictrufflez's).
"Consoles are going to die in favor of the PC" is a mentra we've heard at every generation (or almost). There needs to be something really different for that to happen. Other than game development cost going steadily up, while mobile gaming based on adds degrades the perceived requires value of games, I don't see so many different things nowadays that would justify the harsh statement above to come true.

Nintendo have brought "something else" to the table regularly. We can dislike them, we can think the Wii U is far from their best offer and disagree with trying to merge "tablet and TV" into a single experience, they try. Seeing innovation die "just because" would be a shame, in my opinion. In fact, other console makers have tried to catch up on a number of innovations and ideas that Nintendo werefirst to implement. While I agree that sometimes I prefer the enhanced copycat to the original, I give credit where it is due.

I'm not a Nintendo fanboy. I have a PS3 and I liked it a lot (for RockBand, mainly ;)). I'm going to get a PS4 just because of Super Robot Taisen OG:MD. In fact, I choose my hardware according to the games I really want to play. Discussing if a hardware or another should die is completely secondary to me.
Advance Wars has been a fun series, and I only regret the darkness of the latest DS entry.
Fire Emblem have driven me from Nintendo console to console, and I've enjoyed every bit of it (even the crazy random number generator frustrations ;D). Phoenix Wright has also entertained me a lot.
Metal Gear Acid on the PSP was worth investing in the console, and my SRW AP project was chosen because I have that console.

Why make such harsh statements, when the electronics industry is such a tough space to play in?
The easiest route is "more power, promise more realism, and then give more FPS and platformers".
Trying to do something different is bound to bring some failures, but also to bring refreshing novelty to an otherwise capitalistic market with no heart for gamers.

Also, if you can't own HW+SW, you're bound to be quickly limited. So I hope Nintendodon't go that route for real...

That, is what I think.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: FallenAngel2387 on June 12, 2016, 12:21:45 pm
"What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?" Roast marshmallows over the flaming engine. >:D

Seriously, and I shouldn't have to say it here of all places, worst case scenario, there's always the classics.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: Tharthan on June 12, 2016, 12:36:49 pm
Nintendo have brought "something else" to the table regularly.

This is so true.

Phoenix Wright has also entertained me a lot.

Me too!

Seriously, and I shouldn't have to say it here of all places, worst case scenario, there's always the classics.

That's true enough.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: Jorpho on June 12, 2016, 08:25:22 pm
Should I stick with PC gaming if they go down, or is there a console that I may like instead that I ought to go to?
Play the games that you like on the systems you can afford.

/thread
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: jink640 on June 12, 2016, 09:22:42 pm
How likely do you guys think it is that a lot of games just start going mobile instead? Hell, if i was able to use a controller with my phone (I can but with limited support) and there was a good amount of quality titles coming out, I would be quite okay with it.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: shadowmanwkp on June 13, 2016, 03:03:01 am
2. Turn into computers including being able to upgrade parts. (Kinda already there)

*Cough* Steam machines *cough*
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: SunGodPortal on June 13, 2016, 03:10:22 am
Quote
*Cough* Steam machines *cough*

Ouya?
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: Bobolicious81 on June 13, 2016, 04:33:22 pm
How likely do you guys think it is that a lot of games just start going mobile instead? Hell, if i was able to use a controller with my phone (I can but with limited support) and there was a good amount of quality titles coming out, I would be quite okay with it.

Honestly, I think that's a very likely outcome. I already do all of my retro gaming on my phone with a Moga controller rather than my PC nowadays. I can easily connect my phone to my TV if I want to use a larger screen too. Most people already have a smartphone so the user base is there, and ports like GTA: San Andreas and Dragon Quest 8 show that there's a lot of potential there. I loved my PS3, Wii, and DS, but I find myself a little less excited about my PS4 and 3DS. I'm not sure I'd bother buying another console after those run their course.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: Chronosplit on June 13, 2016, 05:25:02 pm
I agree that mobile's getting to be a platform with great potential.  It still has a little while 'til then, but with the proper support and OS a big tablet will be a real option in the future I feel.

I admit that I was more excited for the mobile version of DQ7 than 3DS.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: jonk on June 13, 2016, 05:41:05 pm
How likely do you guys think it is that a lot of games just start going mobile instead? Hell, if i was able to use a controller with my phone (I can but with limited support) and there was a good amount of quality titles coming out, I would be quite okay with it.
Honestly, I think that's a very likely outcome. I already do all of my retro gaming on my phone with a Moga controller rather than my PC nowadays. I can easily connect my phone to my TV if I want to use a larger screen too. Most people already have a smartphone so the user base is there, and ports like GTA: San Andreas and Dragon Quest 8 show that there's a lot of potential there. I loved my PS3, Wii, and DS, but I find myself a little less excited about my PS4 and 3DS. I'm not sure I'd bother buying another console after those run their course.
There is no question at all that PC desktops (except for certain business use and for high end gaming machines) are diminishing rapidly as an end user home computer. Over time, I think this will drive up prices on these desktops as the volume declines precipitiously and the remaining customer base can afford the extra costs more readily. People never really did need all of those huge contraptions. They usually used the web for browsing and did some word processing or email work at home. And games, of course. But games can be done on the phone.

Microsoft delivered a tour de force in early October, last year. They covered a number of new products, including their hololens. But what really was impressive to me were two items: their new Lumia 950 phone and the new Surface Book laptop. I was so impressed that I ordered my Surface Book (I'm using it now) the next day. But their phone was equally impressive. I saw support for USB 3.C and the transfer rates of about 6GB/second on that device! It also supported all of the usual phone features, simulataneously while the phone also was driving a video tied to HDMI and running a complete Windows operating system and all of the usual programs like Excel and Word on a desktop background. When you visit a friend's house, all you need to do is ask them if they have a spare monitor (not uncommon in the US) and a spare keyboard, drop down your phone and hook these up (there is a small 'box' for this) and then you have a complete PC there. Why drag around a PC anymore? You can have one in your phone.

What saddens me a bit about the use of phones, as replacements for PCs, is that there is a huge draw for talent to create simplistic games and then pumping this out rapid-fire into a $0.99 paying public and adding even more monetizing to the process by having in-app ads plus in-app purchases. If all the game talent goes into chasing down these low-hanging fruits, it's going to be quite some time before people start demanding better gaming experiences. They will just go from one cheap toy game to another for a while. And this will suck away all the air for truly great game development. Why spend millions of dollars, hire very difficult to find talent, push them all hard for six months, and take a huge risk that any of this will show enough profit return. When the alternative is to hire cheaper, less talented folks, who are easy to find and easy to replace, get them pumping out stuff in a few weeks or a month, spend almost nothing at all on artists and musicians, and generate app after app in quick succession, raking in more than enough dollars and while taking much, much less risk on each. You get faster tracking of what you are doing, too, so it is easier to run around taking advantage of changes in attitudes or buying directions that arrive. More flexible, in short. And the public itself will grow to expect nothing more, too. Especially those born into this environment and with no better personal experiences to draw from.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: Tharthan on June 13, 2016, 06:06:32 pm
This whole "phone as a replacement for PC" thing is dumb. I don't want to carry around a dumb phone in my pocket all day. I don't want to be connected to the Web 24/7. And I don't want to have tracking going on by big companies of my activities which are none of their business.

I'm happy to stick with my desktop computer which I already own, thanks. And I'll buy a computer preinstalled with GNU/Linux when I need a new one.
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Post by: FCandChill on June 13, 2016, 06:17:30 pm
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Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: Tharthan on June 13, 2016, 06:41:32 pm
...Which distribution?

Probably Lubuntu. If I can't find one preinstalled with Lubuntu, I'll get one with another distribution and install Lubuntu on it most likely.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: Chronosplit on June 13, 2016, 06:49:57 pm
Quote
What saddens me a bit about the use of phones, as replacements for PCs, is that there is a huge draw for talent to create simplistic games and then pumping this out rapid-fire into a $0.99 paying public and adding even more monetizing to the process by having in-app ads plus in-app purchases. If all the game talent goes into chasing down these low-hanging fruits, it's going to be quite some time before people start demanding better gaming experiences. They will just go from one cheap toy game to another for a while. And this will suck away all the air for truly great game development. Why spend millions of dollars, hire very difficult to find talent, push them all hard for six months, and take a huge risk that any of this will show enough profit return. When the alternative is to hire cheaper, less talented folks, who are easy to find and easy to replace, get them pumping out stuff in a few weeks or a month, spend almost nothing at all on artists and musicians, and generate app after app in quick succession, raking in more than enough dollars and while taking much, much less risk on each. You get faster tracking of what you are doing, too, so it is easier to run around taking advantage of changes in attitudes or buying directions that arrive. More flexible, in short. And the public itself will grow to expect nothing more, too. Especially those born into this environment and with no better personal experiences to draw from.
This is a good point, but I think things will change if the status quo does.  At the same time paid apps are still viable, though the general public at the moment will install a free one first (because it's free) or will scoff at big prices.  There are also hybrid deals, like most things in the Pinball genre for example, that offer much more than the typical freebie but you need to pay for what you're playing most of the time.

Then again this is coming from me who does things a little different.  I will very rarely use free apps myself unless they have a paid option to get rid of ads or a similar upgrade, or are ports of open source things.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: jonk on June 13, 2016, 07:32:26 pm
This whole "phone as a replacement for PC" thing is dumb.
May be. But it is happening all the same.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: PresidentLeever on June 13, 2016, 07:32:35 pm
You just might have to broaden your horizons. Scary thought though.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: SunGodPortal on June 13, 2016, 07:39:12 pm
Quote
May be. But it is happening all the same.

I'm with Tharthan on this one. Playing games on a phone just sounds like a poor substitute for PC or TV. It's what you game on if you are on a train/bus or live in a closet (with no space).
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: Tharthan on June 13, 2016, 07:54:18 pm
May be. But it is happening all the same.

One does not need have to ride the bandwagon all of the time. Sometimes, one ought to jump off of the bandwagon and find one's own way.

You just might have to broaden your horizons. Scary thought though.

Well aren't you a funny cat.

I'm with Tharthan on this one. Playing games on a phone just sounds like a poor substitute for PC or TV. It's what you game on if you are on a train/bus

Exactly.

Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: FAST6191 on June 13, 2016, 08:55:20 pm
This whole "phone as a replacement for PC" thing is dumb. I don't want to carry around a dumb phone in my pocket all day. I don't want to be connected to the Web 24/7. And I don't want to have tracking going on by big companies of my activities which are none of their business.
Then don't carry it, don't be and if you can't dodge tracking and mess with their numbers then probably best to gain it as a skill.

I'm with Tharthan on this one. Playing games on a phone just sounds like a poor substitute for PC or TV. It's what you game on if you are on a train/bus or live in a closet (with no space).
A line I once read went something like "have you ever picked up your phone to look up something when you were sitting at a PC? If so then you experienced a failure in user interface/UX/whatever you want to call it". This would seem to be a cousin to that -- there is no great reason why you can't have an Iron Man style beam it onto that screen over there, indeed it is a fairly popular tech person trick to have audio and video/game wise MS seem to be doing some things (and their remote desktop has been lovely for years as long as you ignore the security woes), Steam's big picture has some stuff and some use raspberry pis and similar devices for stuff like it.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: jonk on June 13, 2016, 09:11:02 pm
One does not need have to ride the bandwagon all of the time. Sometimes, one ought to jump off of the bandwagon and find one's own way.
Cross-purposes. I'm just telling you where everyone else is already going. (Like lemmings?) The sales already show the trend, as also do the polls (see Technology Device Ownership: 2015 (http://www.pewinternet.org/2015/10/29/technology-device-ownership-2015/).) You need to do what you want (and I'm with you there.) It's just that you need to be aware of where things are headed if you want to do any planning. I can't even get an ISA-16 or ISA-8 bus connector, anymore, as there aren't even any south bridge chips made anymore for general PC use. But I have kept my older machines exactly for this reason. I anticipated the change and planned for what I wanted to achieve.

My second thought arrives from your "find one's own way." I do that all the time. I still wire-wrap my own PC boards (for those ISA-16 slots!) I also do my own controllers for the GameCube, too. Custom stuff. So I go my own way. I think that means I agree with your statement. But it also takes knowledge and tools to do that. For those without the knowledge or tools, they either follow the crowd or get left behind. Just jumping off the bandwagon, clueless, is one way to wind up hurt by rocks in the road below. Blazing one's own paths requires skills and tools. Not usually for the light of heart.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: Tharthan on June 13, 2016, 11:05:07 pm
But it also takes knowledge and tools to do that. For those without the knowledge or tools, they either follow the crowd or get left behind. Just jumping off the bandwagon, clueless, is one way to wind up hurt by rocks in the road below. Blazing one's own paths requires skills and tools. Not usually for the light of heart.

That's all fair enough.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: Panzer88 on June 15, 2016, 04:25:44 am
Tharthan, I think you underestimate how long Nintendo has been around, and how big they are, they're a Japanese national figure. They may start making products that you don't like, but I don't think you need to worry about them not making physical products in your lifetime or your children's.

Nintendo was a giant long before their or Sega's first home console.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: Tharthan on June 15, 2016, 12:09:33 pm
Tharthan, I think you underestimate how long Nintendo has been around, and how big they are, they're a Japanese national figure. They may start making products that you don't like, but I don't think you need to worry about them not making physical products in your lifetime or your children's.

Nintendo was a giant long before their or Sega's first home console.

I know how long they've been around, but the thing is that I like Nintendo the first-party video game company, not Nintendo the hanafuda card company, nor Nintendo the toy company, nor a Nintendo that is a third-party video game developer.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: MisterJones on June 15, 2016, 04:16:57 pm
This whole "phone as a replacement for PC" thing is dumb. I don't want to carry around a dumb phone in my pocket all day. I don't want to be connected to the Web 24/7. And I don't want to have tracking going on by big companies of my activities which are none of their business.
Rootkit a tablet then and install a custom rom
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: jink640 on June 15, 2016, 04:19:40 pm
I know how long they've been around, but the thing is that I like Nintendo the first-party video game company, not Nintendo the hanafuda card company, nor Nintendo the toy company, nor a Nintendo that is a third-party video game developer.
I would like to see them try third party a bit. I also want to bring up how it seems that Nintendo holds back a lot of their great talent and does not allow it to flourish. Nintendo has some of the greatest minds in the industry, but they do not like to do different things anymore. They kinda need a big kick in the ass.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: Bregalad on June 19, 2016, 04:14:10 am
Quote
What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
So what could you possibly do? I guess you should just be acclimated to that, and perhaps feel nostalgia, but you can't do much, really. Unless you're rich enought to buy the company, but I seriously doubt that.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: Kallisto on June 19, 2016, 07:00:57 pm
To be quite honest Nintendo had so much potential after I saw the Unreal Engine Demos for a couple of Zelda games. I often wondered why Nintendo didn't take this route to remake OOT in such detail, and for any other game, and future sequels/prequels.

Only 3rd Party companies took advantage of that for Dragon Quest Heroes & Hyrule Warriors.

If Nintendo could loosen up with the pride thing going on..I bet Nintendo would do awesome if they remade OOT in Unreal as a example.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: MisterJones on June 20, 2016, 01:51:06 pm
so new zelda, looks interesting
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: jink640 on June 20, 2016, 02:24:53 pm
so new zelda, looks interesting
Yeah, I am actually thinking about getting the NX for it and DQ XI. I would also like to point out that the only 2 zelda games I have played and enjoyed are LttP and a link between worlds.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: KaioShin on June 20, 2016, 02:46:12 pm
I dunno, the last thing that would come to my mind when someone were to ask me how to fix Zelda is "Make the world bigger so there is more padding and more collectible stuff".

How about make the puzzles not so obvious that the solution is immediately clear upon entering a room? How about designing dungeons that make use of all the tools you aquired that far and not just tailor them to the one item of the dungeon that you can then throw away after it is complete? (And after you picked up a random hearth container or two somewhere on the overworld with it)
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: Idkbutlike2 on June 20, 2016, 04:32:49 pm
How about make the puzzles not so obvious that the solution is immediately clear upon entering a room? How about designing dungeons that make use of all the tools you aquired that far and not just tailor them to the one item of the dungeon that you can then throw away after it is complete? (And after you picked up a random hearth container or two somewhere on the overworld with it)
Ever tried playing Alundra? It basically does this and the results are... well, rather mixed.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: KaioShin on June 20, 2016, 04:44:58 pm
Alundra is awesome. The thing that bothers some people is the platforming combined with a perspective that makes distances hard to judge. The puzzling was great. Not to mention the story and athmosphere are leagues beyond any Zelda game as well. I'd replay Alundra over any post-OoT Zelda any day.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: Idkbutlike2 on June 20, 2016, 05:20:18 pm
I think Alundra overdid the puzzles in a lot of cases. I guess you could call it a case of "git gud", but to me puzzles involving throwing objects onto moving platforms and pushing a series of pillars to specific places got ridiculously tedious - especially when enemies could interrupt you or you could take loads of damage for messing up.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: MisterJones on June 20, 2016, 05:38:19 pm
Crusader of Centy is pretty good on the newly acquired skill department thing.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: realworksuks on July 01, 2016, 08:27:11 pm
I have thought about when Nintendo will stop making consoles too.  The Wii U never took off at all... I don't remember seeing any advertisements at launch.  Hell, I didn't even know it came out until about 3 months after it did.  They have done a terrible job on it.  I did end up buying it about 7 months ago because I saw a new Zelda title was coming out for it, however, right after I bought it, the NX was confirmed.  We'll see how long they stick in the console market.  I hope we can get back to the SNES days where Nintendo was king of the hill, however I don't see that happening when you have Sony doing as well as they are... not to mention Xbox.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: jonk on July 01, 2016, 09:33:57 pm
I have thought about when Nintendo will stop making consoles too.  The Wii U never took off at all... I don't remember seeing any advertisements at launch.  Hell, I didn't even know it came out until about 3 months after it did.  They have done a terrible job on it.  I did end up buying it about 7 months ago because I saw a new Zelda title was coming out for it, however, right after I bought it, the NX was confirmed.  We'll see how long they stick in the console market.  I hope we can get back to the SNES days where Nintendo was king of the hill, however I don't see that happening when you have Sony doing as well as they are... not to mention Xbox.
I have owned two Wii's and one Wii U. All of them have exhibited problems in the cd drives -- difficulties reading CDs which are, so far as the eye can ascertain, pristine and clean. Eventually, they just stop working. It did take a few years' use for the Wii. It took only a half year for the Wii U. I've replaced the drives in the Wii units, successfully. I've cleaned the Wii U drive and it works better now. But this is a moving part and is prone to wear and practical experience has shown me that failure is too readily at hand with them. I've had some modest difficulties with cartridges in old NES and SNES units. But those are much, much older and they have sustained a lot more wear. Plus, I can much more easily clean them up. They still work fine after many years now. Plus, of course, they boot up real fast being ROM instead of relatively slow, rotating media.

3D was a big deal for a while. But it really sucks up huge amounts of resource (artists and programmers as well as hardware) and unless the game play actually requires 3D to work well, it almost always turns out that the effort that should have instead gone into a great game with excellent playability rather than into the overly complex art and programming and leaving game play more as an afterthought. That said, some games do use 3D well and it definitely makes the difference. But those categories are few.

I think most producers are actively out grabbing after the low-hanging fruit of Android and IOS phones (maybe someday Windows Universal, but who knows there?) Games there require hardly any thought at all and people make tons of cash selling almost anything. So who cares about crafted, thoughtful game playability anymore? Just pump out the next candy crush game. It's trivial to write, makes lots of money, and has near-zero manufacturing costs (transmission bandwidth is all.) I suppose all that has to simmer down on its own and find some natural level before anything else can work its way onto the scene.

I guess I don't know what the magic formula is. Is there one, now?
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: realworksuks on July 01, 2016, 09:44:38 pm
I guess I don't know what the magic formula is. Is there one, now?

It's definitely moving towards phone games I think. Some very fun games exist on the phone like the Supercell games.

The games are successful because you can turn them on for a minute or five and get something accomplished.  If I sit down for a console game, I truly like to have like 3 hours set aside. 

With all of that said, I still like console games and I hope that they are always around.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: Jorpho on July 02, 2016, 12:25:11 am
They have done a terrible job on it.  I did end up buying it
Heh.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: Panzer88 on July 20, 2016, 04:19:32 pm
I know how long they've been around, but the thing is that I like Nintendo the first-party video game company, not Nintendo the hanafuda card company, nor Nintendo the toy company, nor a Nintendo that is a third-party video game developer.

you do realized that Nintendo is worth more money than all of Sony, right? that's including all of Sony's businesses combined.

Nintendo will be making console video games long after you are dead. The question you should ask yourself is not "will nintendo keep making games while I'm here" but rather "am I going to keep buying Nintendo's games no matter how crappy they could potentially get"

only buy good games, you'll be very happy with this policy. Don't by crap, doesn't matter who makes it, if it's crap.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: Psychlonic on July 20, 2016, 06:46:58 pm
I've left the console wars completely, I use my PC to play new releases if I care to play any (getting rare today). Steam is picking up, well, steam so more companies are realizing they're leaving money on the table when they don't port their games over. My only gripe here is that the collector in me doesn't like the digital-only aspect of this. I'll happily pay money for physical copies if anyone should be awesome enough to make them - I caught some crap from my friends for buying Terraria as an example and also Retro City Rampage for my old beige Compaq computer.

I had gotten good deals on a damaged 360 and PS3 for collector's purposes and the few exclusives I cared for, so repairing those was worthwhile and didn't set me back much. Wiis are a dime a dozen. But this generation? Nope. And half of the decent games from last gen have received HD remasters for current gen plus Steam so it almost craps on the whole idea of me getting the last gen systems.

Anyway, I'm rambling. I loved both Sega and Nintendo back in the 8 and 16bit eras, so it's sad to see Nintendo kind of reduced to being almost an "off-brand" (even if they're doing well financially) gaming company. I think they're still shipworthy for awhile though, the whole market seems like a shitshow to me but what do I know? Sony and MS are busy recreating the Sega 32x with their consoles but with the intelligence of today's market there's enough stupid people to gobble it up and ask them "Please sir, can I have some more?"
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: jink640 on July 20, 2016, 06:59:28 pm
you do realized that Nintendo is worth more money than all of Sony, right? that's including all of Sony's businesses combined.
Not true, according to these sources.

https://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2016/160427e.pdf (https://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2016/160427e.pdf)

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/library/fr/15q4_sony.pdf (http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/library/fr/15q4_sony.pdf)

Nintendo seems to be worth roughly 1/2 of what Sony is, and that is only counting equity. This is not surprising, seeing as Sony has their foot in damn near every industry while Nintendo is strictly gaming.

only buy good games, you'll be very happy with this policy. Don't by crap, doesn't matter who makes it, if it's crap.

Yeah, despite this being what everyone would think, not many people actually follow it. Hell, how many units did that assassin's creed game sell?
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: Panzer88 on July 21, 2016, 12:43:04 am
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/nintendo-now-worth-more-than-sony-following-pokemo/1100-6441985/
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: jink640 on July 21, 2016, 02:03:08 am
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/nintendo-now-worth-more-than-sony-following-pokemo/1100-6441985/
That's just market value. It could mean 1 of 2 things. Could mean that a larger piece of Nintendo is public when compared to Sony (I believe this is true, but not by much). could also mean that people think that Nintendo is making much more money from the game then they actually are. Nintendo does not own the entire game of pokemon go. They are a joint investor in the Pokemon company, but the revenue from the game also has to go to Niantic, who google owns for the most part. I believe at the end of this month we should know the splits and how much Nintendo is making. I expect to see a drop in the stock price soon though. It just seems so overvalued. Or maybe I am underestimating Pokemon go.

Main moral of the story is: Do not base net worth of a company by market value. That's a bad strategy. You will get nothing but a honey farm in your portfolio.

I can see where the confusion came from though, Gamespot is the king of misleading article titles.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: MisterJones on July 25, 2016, 01:08:15 pm
And most of those investors have already sold their shares while they were still worthy. Its value plummeted like 16%
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: FAST6191 on July 25, 2016, 01:52:52 pm
And most of those investors have already sold their shares while they were still worthy. Its value plummeted like 16%

I wonder how many of them bought into it during the wii bump or after the slump and got out now the value met or exceeded what they bought in for.
Older yearly chart but http://static.cdn-seekingalpha.com/uploads/2011/6/21/130-130870490447427-Steven-Towns_origin.png
Symbol in US markets is NTDOY if you have a means to make your own chart (google has some but nothing I seem to be able to easily link and my old standby of http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/Nintendo_%28NTDOY%29 wants flash).
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: jink640 on July 25, 2016, 06:28:54 pm
And most of those investors have already sold their shares while they were still worthy. Its value plummeted like 16%
They are releasing their reports on the 27th, I am slightly expecting it to slingshot down.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: Kallisto on August 09, 2016, 02:52:47 am
The Nintendo Ship might as well sink after that fiasco couple days ago.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: Jorpho on August 09, 2016, 10:51:12 pm
Which fiasco are we talking about now?
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: SCD on August 10, 2016, 01:47:25 am
Which fiasco are we talking about now?

The incidents where Nintendo sent DMCA notices to both Doctor M64 to shut down his awesome AM2R fan game and the Internet Archive to shut down their Nintendo Power magazine library.

Both projects were not harming them at all, they just want to bully their fan base like they been doing in recent years.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: jink640 on August 10, 2016, 02:57:23 am
Its almost like Sega is doing all the right things in regards to fans while Nintendo just wont stop fucking up.

Dont say that terrible phrase.... please.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: SunGodPortal on August 10, 2016, 03:04:51 am
Its almost like Sega is doing all the right things in regards to fans while Nintendo just wont stop fucking up.

Dont say that terrible phrase.... please.

SEGA do what Nintendo not does doing. :)
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: FAST6191 on August 10, 2016, 03:23:02 am
Both projects were not harming them at all, they just want to bully their fan base like they been doing in recent years.

Internet archive is up for debate but if you are going to call your game metroid and use the sprites then you worry trademark law and risk having it pointed at and people say you don't care about the trademark and thus you lose it. To that end there was a harm.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: resq on August 10, 2016, 08:58:16 am
Dont say that terrible phrase.... please.
Nintendoes do stuff don't they. :angel:
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: Lilinda on August 10, 2016, 06:11:21 pm
Internet archive is up for debate but if you are going to call your game metroid and use the sprites then you worry trademark law and risk having it pointed at and people say you don't care about the trademark and thus you lose it. To that end there was a harm.

Yup. Nintendo was 100% legally in the right on the Metroid 2 Remake yank. Doesn't make it morally right, but legally, they have no choice.
Title: Re: What do I do if the Nintendo ship sinks?
Post by: Kallisto on August 10, 2016, 09:48:54 pm
Someone send out the SEGA submarine, and sink the Ninty ship.