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General Category => News Submissions => Topic started by: RHDNBot on October 04, 2015, 10:21:43 pm

Title: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: RHDNBot on October 04, 2015, 10:21:43 pm
(http://www.romhacking.net/newsimages/newsimage1655a.png) (http://www.romhacking.net/newsimages/newsimage1655a.png) (http://www.romhacking.net/newsimages/newsimage1655b.png) (http://www.romhacking.net/newsimages/newsimage1655b.png)

Update By: puzzledude

After being in development for quite some time, this nonconventional Zelda3 hack is finished. Can you pass the impossible and beat its above average intuitive and algorithmic puzzles? It's like an IQ test, only with the Alttp engine.

May the Einstein be with you.

RHDN Project Page (http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/2575/)

Relevant Link (http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/2575/)
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Disch on October 05, 2015, 02:01:12 am
So this looks interesting but I can't get it to work.

I've verified the CRC of the source ROM
I've patched using the supplied patcher
I've tried running in both the supplied emus, as well as in Higan v094

Nothing but a black screen.


Plus, I'm extremely skeptical of any hack that requires a custom emulator in the first place.  Was this verified on hardware?
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: puzzledude on October 05, 2015, 06:23:28 am
So this looks interesting but I can't get it to work.

I've verified the CRC of the source ROM
I've patched using the supplied patcher
I've tried running in both the supplied emus, as well as in Higan v094

Nothing but a black screen.


Plus, I'm extremely skeptical of any hack that requires a custom emulator in the first place.  Was this verified on hardware?
Then you are obviously doing something wrong, since the Rom and the patching process and the loading on supplied emus was tested numerous times.

Make sure to read these simple instructions again from the Readme:
Open the Xdelta UI patcher (Included in the ZIP).
Select APPLY patch.

-Under Patch select the Zelda3_IQ_Patch.xdelta
-Under Source File select the Original Rom (US non-headered Alttp rom with 1.024 KB)
-Under Output File press the ... button and then type in Zelda3 IQ.sfc

-Note: the file extension of the hack must be .sfc

(http://www.bwass.org/bucket/xdelta.png)
The xdelta will prevent patching to the false rom and will thus not produce bugged roms like ips.


The second thing you should know is, that this game simply uses a different format. It is a Exlorom instead of Lorom. And will run on any device, which supports Exlorom. I've just supplied Fusoya's emulators, so players don't need to search for them, since they are the most appropriate choice.

The famous SMW hack by Fusoya called Super Demo World The Legend Continue uses a similar format. You even need to expand the rom in his case before patching and his game is a hit. So this format should be acceptable for hacks.

Also, do read the Legal Notice of the Readme.


Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Disch on October 05, 2015, 11:02:35 am
Ah ok.  I missed the sfc extension.  Weird that that matters.

Still doesn't work on Higan, though.  Maybe it uses a db to know when to switch to ExLoRom or something?  Whatever.

EDIT:

I guess the question is... is ExLoRom a real thing?  Or is it something FuSoYa made up to allow for larger SMW ROMs?  If custom emu builds had to be made for it, that is very suspect.  It's like making up your own mapper in an NES game so you can do things that no real cartridge could.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: puzzledude on October 05, 2015, 12:35:54 pm
I did some testing and the extension matters. It probably can not run on a "false" extension, pretty much how .doc and .docx are different. And the .docx doesn't work on old Word.

Regarding the formats, they are explained here:
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Super_NES_Programming/SNES_memory_map#ExLoROM.2C_ExHiROM
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Disch on October 05, 2015, 01:25:17 pm
From that wiki article:

Quote
Thus, using a format which allows the usage of up to 6 Megabytes of ROM

Your hack is 8 MB.  No wonder it doesn't work in traditional emus.

This is sort of a philosophical debate of what emulation is.  Is an emulator representative of the hardware?  Or is it effectively a tool like game maker?

You seem to be treating it like the latter -- which I guess is fine, but will make your hack instantly dated, as more strict and accurate emulators surface in the future (or even in the present -- as is the case with Higan), your hack will be broken on them.  We saw this a lot back in the late 90s when people would make ROM hacks that only worked on NESticle.

Here you've made a ROM hack that only works on a custom build of SNES9x or ZSNES -- not even an official build.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: SunGodPortal on October 05, 2015, 04:17:27 pm
Quote
You seem to be treating it like the latter -- which I guess is fine, but will make your hack instantly dated, as more strict and accurate emulators surface in the future (or even in the present -- as is the case with Higan), your hack will be broken on them.  We saw this a lot back in the late 90s when people would make ROM hacks that only worked on NESticle.

Here you've made a ROM hack that only works on a custom build of SNES9x or ZSNES -- not even an official build.

It's a measure taken against repro makers.

EDIT: Play The Legend of Zelda - IQ Test.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Disch on October 05, 2015, 04:21:22 pm
It's a measure taken against repro makers.

Effectively proving my point.  If it doesn't work on hardware, it isn't really emulation -- it's more like Game Maker.

Like I said... that's fine.  But it dates this hack and vastly restricts how it can be played.  This hack will not work on future emulators.  Hell, it doesn't even work on current ones.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: SunGodPortal on October 05, 2015, 04:24:10 pm
Quote
Effectively proving my point.  If it doesn't work on hardware, it isn't really emulation -- it's more like Game Maker.

Like I said... that's fine.  But it dates this hack and vastly restricts how it can be played.  This hack will not work on future emulators.  Hell, it doesn't even work on current ones.

Well then enjoy it while you can. :D

EDIT: Play The Legend of Zelda - IQ Test.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Disch on October 05, 2015, 04:25:29 pm
I would, but I don't feel like configuring a whole new emu.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: puzzledude on October 05, 2015, 05:21:56 pm
I don't think we need to worry for the future. People will be smarter. With any PC emulator of the future we can assume that the author will want to make it complete (like save stating, cheating, IPS and UPS softpatching support, zip and 7Z and rar support, different rom-mapping support).

Exlorom really should be one of the standards since it allows a lot more space and data to be added (image how much SMW levels would fit into 8MB). Note: Fusoya made such a rom/hack (his was 6MB Exhirom, which is really not that much different than this one) in 2003.

SNES Stuff address calculator has these addressing modes implemented: Lorom, Hirom, Exlorom, Exhirom. The same (even more possibilities) with the calssic Lunar Expand.

The original authors of Snes9x took both: Exlo and Exhi rom mappings into the regard. I looked at the source code (easy to implement into an emulator if you are a programmer and are making a SNES emu). The only reason it did not support 8, but only 6MB was by accident.

Real hardware was somewhat limited to Lorom mapping with 4MB max for a cart due to phisical reason, which involved money (to distribute an 8MB cart would be much more expensive than 1 or 2MB one). There are some exceptions however which use expansion chips.

That's why real hardware can never run something, which has been updated. And this mapping is an update. However, certain clones of SNES, which were made, actually support save states and cheats, even IPS soft patching. I expect that in the future SNES clones (hardware), as well as emulators will support this format as well.

PS
You might want to ask byuu to add Exlorom and Exhirom support to future Higan releases. This should not be that difficult for someone who mannaged to program an entire emu.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Disch on October 05, 2015, 05:43:54 pm
Exlorom is supported by Higan.  Star Ocean runs just fine.

The problem is that Exlorom apparently caps out at 6 MB.  You are not obeying that restriction.  So what you are doing is not Exlorom, but is some custom thing that is totally fabricated and never actually existed on any SNES cartridge.  That kind of thing will not be supported in future emulators.  If anything, emulators will go out of their way not to support it as more emphasis tends to be put on accuracy as time goes on.


Read the page you linked to.  Nowhere does it say Exlorom or Exhirom support 8MB.  It specifically says 6MB.  The code in official Snes9x was not a mistake -- it was implementing proper behavior.



EDIT:

The definitive test here would be to take an existing ExLoROM cartridge (Star Ocean apparently was the only one), remove its ROM chip, and replace it with an 8 MB chip, and see if that runs on a SNES/SFC.

If yes?  You're good.  ExLoROM supports 8MB, and I'll eat my hat.

If not?  You're busted and your hack gives a big 'FU' to emulation accuracy.

I'm assuming you did not perform this test -- so at best you are playing with fire.  And again... since no emulator actually officially supports this... that's a huge red flag telling me that this hack is not legit.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: SunGodPortal on October 05, 2015, 07:59:38 pm
Quote
If not?  You're busted and your hack gives a big 'FU' to emulation accuracy.

If a programmer is so obsessed with this concept of "accuracy" does any of this really matter? Because if someone is that anal about "accuracy" then the time will come when they no longer support ROM images because that's not "accurate", only a legit cartridge is "accurate".

Quote
I'm assuming you did not perform this test -- so at best you are playing with fire.  And again... since no emulator actually officially supports this... that's a huge red flag telling me that this hack is not legit.

Please expand on your concept of what constitutes a "legit" ROM hack, if you don't mind.

EDIT: Play The Legend of Zelda - IQ Test.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: JCE3000GT on October 05, 2015, 08:38:22 pm
I would also like to point out that as a casual emulation gamer I have my emulators of choice installed and configured so having to download another emu just to play one hack isn't feasible.  Now my next point impacts me directly.  This hack will not run on my RetroN5 and I suspect it won't run on flash carts as well.  That's the future of 8/16-bit emulation so it not being compatible with those devices cuts out a portion of the audience. 

Just some thoughts to ponder...
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Disch on October 05, 2015, 09:01:19 pm
Bear in mind I am more of an emulator developer than a ROM hacker.  So my view here is coming from what might be considered a different world.

If a programmer is so obsessed with this concept of "accuracy" does any of this really matter? Because if someone is that anal about "accuracy" then the time will come when they no longer support ROM images because that's not "accurate", only a legit cartridge is "accurate".

You're taking that to an unreasonable extreme.

An emulated game on the SNES consists of two basic things:  the software and the hardware.  The ROM contains the software, but cannot possibly contain the hardware because that's a physical thing.  So it's the job of the emulator to simulate the hardware.

Simply:  SNES emulators simulate SNES hardware.

Good SNES emulators try very hard to simulate the behavior of what that hardware actually does in real life.  Quirks and all.  When done properly, software will not be able to tell whether or not it's running on real hardware, or on an emulator.  The behavior on each will be identical.  This is the goal of "accuracy".

Allowing 8MB of ROM when the hardware only allowed 6 creates a visible change in how the software runs.  This breaks accuracy.

The bottom line is... if the emulator is accurate, it will run any game you throw at it.  Anything that runs on the system, will run on the emulator.  This is invaluable for ROM hacking and homebrew scenes, as the emulator becomes a reasonably trustworthy test platform.  What's more, it future-proofs the emulator.

Inaccurate emulators often have to riddle themselves with dozens of game-specific tweaks in order to get games to run properly.  Which is basically how NESticle operated way back in the day.  And even older versions of SNES9x and ZSNES.  And if you remember, way back in the day there were probably hundreds of hacks and homebrews designed to work in NESticle that simply do not work in modern emulators.



Now imagine if you will, a homebrew game which was designed to run on ExLoROM.  A game which was actually tested on real hardware -- so it is confirmed that the game is programmed properly.  However, the game fails to run on an inaccurate emulator because of the visible difference in how the hardware is simulated.

Clearly this is not the fault of the game -- but is the fault of the emulator.  So this is something emulator authors try very hard to avoid.  The inaccurate emu author would then have to work in some kind of game-specific tweak to get this homebrew to work properly.  Which also would fail as soon as someone makes a hack for the homebrew.

An accurate emu, on the other hand, will simply always work.  It does what the hardware does, so it can't ever be wrong.

Quote
Please expand on your concept of what constitutes a "legit" ROM hack, if you don't mind.

If it runs on real hardware, it's legit.  If it doesn't, it's bogus.

Repro carts like Powerpak muddy these waters a lot, as they also tend to be emulators.  But that's a side-point.





Now... nevermind all of that... and just look at the consequences of this Zelda 3 IQ hack.  Anyone that wants to play this hack will have to abandon their emulator of choice, and use some other emulator.

Nevermind the inconvenience of that... and the fact that it resulted in a HUGE upload of questionable legality because he had to bundle the emulators with his hack... but what if someone wanted to play this on an emu for their phone?  They can't.  What if someone is running MacOS?  They can't play this hack either.  What if 5 years from now someone is running a version of Windows that is incompatible with these custom emu builds?  That person is also SOL.

By going against what SNES hardware dictates, this hack is destroying its playability.

Conversely, if your hack works on real hardware -- if you obey the limitations of the system... you hack will always work.  Every emulator throughout the rest of time will be able to run your hack.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: someone on October 05, 2015, 10:01:45 pm
Geesh, I had to register for this, its so obvious !

This is an IQ hack, to test your problem solving skills, yet this hack itself has a huge problem that needs to be overcome. I just love irony.

Puzzledude, I respect, and admire the fact that you made an 8mb hack of probably one of the more difficult snes games to hack, but I have to agree 100% with Disch.  Besides, you clearly like puzzles, so here one is, get it under 6mb.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Chpexo on October 05, 2015, 10:33:46 pm
Puzzledude, I respect, and admire the fact that you made an 8mb hack of probably one of the more difficult snes games to hack, but I have to agree 100% with Disch.  Besides, you clearly like puzzles, so here one is, get it under 6mb.
Well you start in the light world and then go to the dark world before going to the meat of the hack; the dungeons. Theoretically, it seems like you can trim some fat off the hack by removing the two. Though it's easier said than done.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: SunGodPortal on October 05, 2015, 11:59:57 pm
Quote
I would also like to point out that as a casual emulation gamer I have my emulators of choice installed and configured so having to download another emu just to play one hack isn't feasible.

The emulators are included in the archive so if you download the hack, you already have the emus. Problem solved, my friend. :)

Quote
Repro carts like Powerpak muddy these waters a lot, as they also tend to be emulators.

This may be silly of me, but the Powerpak is more of an add-on interface with emulated mappers than what many people would refer to as a "repro cart" or an "emulator". :P

I started to respond to your other stuff Disch, but I'm just going to let all of that go. I don't feel strongly enough about this to continue. Besides, it's not like what PD has done here isn't strange given that there isn't 8MB of content. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the ROM is mostly empty space (I only looked through about half in a hex editor so I am assumming when I say "mostly").

EITHER WAY, WHAT'S MORE IMPORTANT...

I've been playing it and it's an awesome hack.

EDIT: Play The Legend of Zelda - IQ Test.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Disch on October 06, 2015, 12:18:47 am
I don't know about the SNES powerpak, but the NES PowerPak was essentially a mapper emulator in hardware form.  It had to simulate the behavior of all the various mappers the same way traditional emulators do -- only it does it through hardware rather than software.

I presume comparable SNES cartridges operate the same way.  Simulating LoROM/HiROM/etc (which are effectively the SNES version of mappers) where appropriate.


But yeah repro cart was probably the wrong term.  Apologies.  I stand by the claim of it being an emulator, though.

Quote
I started to respond to your other stuff Disch, but I'm just going to let all of that go. I don't feel strongly enough about this to continue.

Well like I said -- I'm coming from a different world.  I identify much more closely with the mentality behind emulator development than I do with ROM hacking.

A lot of people in this world have no problem looking at emulators with a less "purist" attitude.  A lot think it doesn't matter whether or not it runs on hardware because nobody would really bother putting it on hardware.

And that's all fine.  But my main point was that the choice to break convention here makes the hack much harder to play, and much less accessible.  So it probably was not the best decision.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: SunGodPortal on October 06, 2015, 12:43:51 am
Quote
It had to simulate the behavior of all the various mappers the same way traditional emulators do -- only it does it through hardware rather than software.

From what I understand I think it's a bit of both. I mean, all of the mappers are individual files on the Powerpak, so wouldn't that make them a software thing?

Quote
Apologies.  I stand by the claim of it being an emulator, though.

Noted.

Quote
Well like I said -- I'm coming from a different world.  I identify much more closely with the mentality behind emulator development than I do with ROM hacking.

A lot of people in this world have no problem looking at emulators with a less "purist" attitude.  A lot think it doesn't matter whether or not it runs on hardware because nobody would really bother putting it on hardware.

I guess it seems that my concept of "emulation" is a little more liberal then. At the same time, I hate it when a hack won't work on my Powerpak**. I hate emulators, but you seem like an OK guy, Disch. LOL

**Though that is simply a matter of updating the software.

AND AGAIN...
Since all of this thread has been arguing/debating about formats and definitions: Just play the hack, people. It's great. if you cannot appreciate the gift of a new Zelda III hack, then shame on you. >:(

EDIT:
(http://dl.dropbox.com/s/zphiql32ypvr2sg/iqtest.png)

By the way, nice self-promotion there Puzz. :)
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Disch on October 06, 2015, 01:18:56 am
Quote
I mean, all of the mappers are individual files on the Powerpak, so wouldn't that make them a software thing?

Power Pak uses an FPGA, which is essentially programmable hardware.  It does not have an additional processor which means any software that runs has to run off the NES's 6502 -- meaning it would be impossible to emulate the mappers in software.  Can't run a software emulator on the 6502 when you need it to run the actual game.

Likely the bootup code for the PowerPak checks to see if there were any updates to the POWERPAK folder, and if so, triggers the FPGA to update itself be updated.  Presumably this update would cause a delay... or a slower bootup the first time after updating your mapper files.  It's been a while since I've updated my PowerPak so I can't remember if that actually happens or not.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: SunGodPortal on October 06, 2015, 01:41:11 am
Quote
Power Pak uses an FPGA, which is essentially programmable hardware.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Quote
It's been a while since I've updated my PowerPak so I can't remember if that actually happens or not.

Usually for me, any time I update or change any of the files something like "card read error" will flash on the screen for a split-second before it proceeds to load as normal (or at least appears to).

EDIT: Play The Legend of Zelda - IQ Test.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: puzzledude on October 06, 2015, 06:41:02 am
PART1

Quote
But I don't feel like configuring a whole new emu.
Other than to select which button does what there is nothing else to do. It is a matter of seconds.

Quote
Exlorom IS supported by Higan. Star Ocean runs just fine.
No. Exlorom is NOT supported by Higan (I tested this out, not even 5MB Exlorom is loading), since Star Ocean is Not Exlorom. Star Ocean is simply a SA-1 6MB rom. It is not really the size alone, it is the mapping. Original hardware did not have the Exlorom or Exhirom mappings.

Quote
The problem is that Exlorom apparently caps out at 6 MB.
No it doesn't. There is no mapping difference between 5MB, 6MB, 7MB and 8MB Exloroms. Higan doesn't run any size of Exlorom or Exhirom.

Quote
You are not obeying that restriction. So what you are doing is not Exlorom. But is some custom thing that is totally fabricated.
Ho, ho, ho (and it is not even Christmas).
Wrong all the way. What I'm doing is exactly Exlorom!

Quote
and never actually existed on any SNES cartridge.
You got that right though. Exlorom never existed on real hardware, since this format is the future and was invented right after the millenia, around 2001, SPECIFICALLY FOR ROMHACKS.

Quote
That kind of thing will not be supported in future emulators. If anything, emulators will go out of their way not to support it as more emphasis tends to be put on accuracy as time goes on.
The Exlorom format IS THE FUTURE. It is the real hardware, which is extinct and outdated with its old Lorom format. Real SNES hardware died in the 90s.

How difficult it is to make an emu, which runs like original hardware and also throw in something like save stating! (not supported by real hardware!) and BG layer deactivation (not supported by real hardware!). How difficult it is to add another mapping system. I checked the source code of Snes9x - easy to do).

--------------------------------

Quote
Read the page you linked to. Nowhere does it say Exlorom or Exhirom support 8MB. It specifically says 6MB. The code in official Snes9x was not a mistake -- it was implementing proper behavior.
The code in official snes9x WAS a mistake. Look at the source code (a dumb mistake was done, a "typo" basically). Snes9x 1.48 supported 8MB Exloroms, and 1.51 suddenly not. Fusoya corrected this with no more than a cuple of lines changed (to correct this "typo").

Standatd Lorom size is 0-4MB. Exlorom starts the code at 4MB (while having 0-4 empty for repointing data into it). Can't you sum 4+4? That makes it 8MB, don't you think... specially if Hirom.

So:
Lorom 1MB, expands to 5MB Exlorom
Lorom 2MB, expands to 6MB Exlorom
Lorom 3MB, expands to 7MB Exlorom
Lorom 4MB, expands to 8MB Exlorom

Hirom 0.5MB, expands to 5MB Exhirom
Hirom 1MB, expands to 6MB Exhirom
Hirom 2MB, expands to 8MB Exhirom

PS Star Ocean is not either of the above, since it doesn't have a Lorom or Hirom base.


Quote
The definitive test here would be to take an existing ExLoROM cartridge.
Which doesn't exist, since it was never made, since the format was invented around 2001, Specifically for Advanced Romhacking.

Quote
ExLoROM doesn't support 8MB.
You clearly don't know what Exlorom is. How many original games are 4MB - so many 8MB Exloroms can be made.

Don't you get it - this is an "EXPANSION" method, not a standalone format.
Exlorom means= expanded Lorom, so something that used to be Lorom.
Ex can also refer to "previous", so "previously" a Lorom.

Star Ocean was nothing "previously". It simply is a Lorom, which has more than 4MB.


Quote
If not? You're busted and your hack gives a big 'FU' to emulation accuracy.

I'm assuming you did not perform this test -- so at best you are playing with fire. And again... since no emulator actually officially supports this... that's a huge red flag telling me that this hack is not legit.
It is very legit and Unique as well. You know what they say: the best is also the most rare. Exlorom was invented for advanced romhacking after real hardware was already being replaced by 64bit era.

And what is an official emulator? All emulators are unofficial and based on the statements of original author an act of piracy.

And don't make me laugh with the "emulation accuracy", an invisible thing, which is completely irrelevant, since no normal person can see the difference between hyper-minor performance changes between real hardware and proper SNES emulation on PC (or any well designed emu).

However some other (non PC) emus really are poor, like DS SNES emu. This thing really is a mess. But such poor emulation performance is due to average nature of people who made it.



October 06, 2015, 06:41:24 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
PART2

Quote
This hack will not run on my RetroN5 and I suspect it won't run on flash carts as well. That's the future of 8/16-bit emulation so it not being compatible with those devices cuts out a portion of the audience.
The devices that you mentioned support only what the original hardware supports, since they are all phisical devices, designed for original SNES games.


Quote
If it runs on real hardware, it's legit. If it doesn't, it's bogus.
And how do you play a hack on real hardware. You need to make a cart then, which is by defalut an illegal act of cart making.

If it runs on real hardware, it's illegal. Because then you can make a cart and sell it (and it works). If it doesn't run on real hardware, it's legal.

If it runs on real hardware, it's old and outdated. If it doesn't, it is advanced, unique and futuristic.



Quote
By going against what SNES hardware dictates, this hack is destroying its playability.
A very true and unfortunate side effect of keeping things legal and a very true and unfortunate side effect of the advanced/future romhacking, on which the old original gives up, since it is limited.

Also, do note, that Exlorom is VALID AND KNOWN MAPPING SYSTEM (which however DID NOT EXIST ON REAL HARDWARE). This mapping system was already taken into the regard by Snes9x developers (and yes up to 8MB on verison 1.48).

Any future versions of Repron, sd2snes, flashcart, emulator etc could easily add this mapping system.

Quote
Besides, you clearly like puzzles, so here one is, get it under 6mb.
Doesn't really matter if it is 6MB. It would behave the same as now.


Quote
SNES emulators simulate SNES hardware.
How very true. But note: WHAT IS THE GLOBAL GOAL? The answer is logical - to play a SNES game on a device, which is not SNES hardware - since those are extinct.

So if someone wants to play a SNES game on a PC, he needs a program. The emulators were the easy way out!: a pragmatic solution to the problem - it is easier to scan a cart into the file and emulate it, rather then to adopt the game into a Windows based game, to run it with a new OS depended .exe application.

I wish it would be the latter by the way. The irony is that such applications exist! and game looks like a poor copy of the original (authors of the app did a poor job obviously) - which makes emulation even more popular, since it actually has more qulity. That's we have emulators.
------------------------------



THE MORE IMPORTAINT PART

Quote
An accurate emu, on the other hand, will simply always work. It does what the hardware does, so it can't ever be wrong.
True, but it can never be better either. What if I want to make a game that uses better and more gfx, than the original hardware would allow. Original Alttp has the gfx space limited, why not expand it and make a better game with more wall blocksets (currently only 4 allowed). What if we want each dungeon to have its own unique walls? We can't - not "allowed" by real system. GFX space limited and compressed.

What if we want the enhanced MSU-1 sound? (very popular today). We can't - not "allowed" by real system.

What if we want 500 dungeon rooms, instead of 295 as the original. We can't - not "allowed" by real system.

That's why so many advanced SMW hacks don't run on real systems.

We can change that with the emulators. And that's what I did.

The warp maze in this game uses so many room header properties to make all of those room transitions, that the real hardware would not allow, because it's outdated. Each room now uses maximum room header (original game can only dream of this).

The original rom is squezeed into 1MB! which is absurd. The original game should at least have 3MB. Imagine what we could do with 8 (and obviously on this size we will still have free space).

Note: we must distinguish between a bugged rom hack, which runs only on Zsnes, since it is bugged and poorly made; and an advanced and unique romhack, which uses modern futuristic methods, which can not be handled by old real hardware.
------------------------------


Quote
Besides, it's not like what PD has done here isn't strange given that there isn't 8MB of content. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the ROM is mostly empty space (I only looked through about half in a hex editor so I am assumming when I say "mostly").
Exactly, since obviously this is a shorter hack and does not implement all the new ideas with advanced hacking (for instance I expanded the gfx space, but didn't fill it all). With this size, you will surely not use all the space, so that the game "can breath", rather than to squeeze it all in, like the original. That's the main problem of Alttp, which disallows and limits romhacking. The first thing you want to do with original when modding is expansion of the rom.

Also do note, that it is the mapping that it's importaint. A standard Exlorom made from Alttp (original game) would have the same amount of data as original - ie 1MB actual data - but mapped into 5MB Exlorom. The rest is 00 bytes, untill you start hacking and thus filling this empty space, or simply reorganize the data to be much less "squeezed".

Quote
Since all of this thread has been arguing/debating about formats and definitions: Just play the hack, people. It's great.
Yea. And you got the Green Pendant! - good job (that's difficult to get!).

Quote
By the way, nice self-promotion there Puzz
I was testing the ASM with Hex here and could make it so that custom tiles get loaded into menu, and didn't know what to write. In the bata it was: MAIN ITEMS.



October 06, 2015, 07:26:25 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
PS
This game uses some prodigy-ASM by Conn. The original game can only dream of this: brand new item was made! (I will not spoil it for you which one it is!) Multipushable block was implemented, water block, "brown" block, stone block. Can not push block if standing in shallow water ASM etc etc. It is highly questionable that the old system (ie not Exlorom) would allow such an update.

Original gfx was compressed. I used the non compressed method with a least 4 times the amount of that the original uses (I didn't know if you noticed the new Armos gfx SGP), but obviously I didn't fill all the space.

Maximal room header-properties used (original game can only dream of this). Same for all indoor data actually - all repointed to expanded space to use maximum data possible -
IE I can add so many sprites that any emu would go to infinite lag! Can you imagine this: No More Sprite Limitation! (original game can only dream of this).

The potential of this format is endless.

So as you can see, the game is better in any way. This is how the original should be done and any Alttp hack actually, the original however was "viciously" squeezed into 1MB (for financial purposes), since distribuing such carts was easier.

This advanced romhacking, however, has side effects regarding compatibility.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Disch on October 06, 2015, 10:34:44 am
Quote
Other than to select which button does what there is nothing else to do. It is a matter of seconds.

Video/audio config.  I lose all my savestates.  If I have a frontend utility, I have to reconfigure that too.  There might be netplay concerns.  I can't use a debugger anymore.  Etc.

Certainly it can be done, but it's an inconvenience.

Quote
since Star Ocean is Not Exlorom.

Whoops.  That wiki suggested it was, so I was operating on that assumption.

Quote
Exlorom never existed on real hardware, since this format [...] was invented right after the millenia, around 2001, SPECIFICALLY FOR ROMHACKS.

So there you have it.  It's not about emulators being representative of the hardware, it's about emulators being like GameMaker.

If that's how you want to use it, that's fine.  But you're limiting your audience.

Quote
The Exlorom format IS THE FUTURE

I disagree.  I've been a part of the NES emulation scene for years, and the clear progression of attitude is that accuracy of obeying hardware restrictions is more important than anything else -- because when you bend accuracy, games start breaking.

I can't help but think SNES emulation will progress the same way.  And in a way it already has -- which is why your ROM hack only works on a grand total of 2 emulators.

Quote
And what is an official emulator?

An official release of software is a release made or endorsed by the primary developers as the next version.  A branch, or fork of the software would not be an official release.

For example, if I were to take your ROM hack, replace Link with a giant penis, and rerelease it, that would not be an official release of your hack.

Quote
What if I want to make a game that uses better and more gfx, than the original hardware would allow.

Then the SNES is the wrong platform.  You want something like RPGMaker.  Which, btw, has much fewer restrictions than any SNES emulator does.

Quote
How difficult it is to make an emu, which runs like original hardware and also throw in something like save stating! (not supported by real hardware!)

The difference is that things like savestates are invisible to the software.  The game running cannot possibly know they exist, and therefore savestates cannot possibly interfere with emulation.  It will never cause an emulated game to fail.

Quote
WHAT IS THE GLOBAL GOAL? The answer is logical - to play a SNES game on a device, which is not SNES hardware - since those are extinct.

But what is a SNES game?  A game which existed on the SNES.

Since you admitted Exlorom did not exist on the SNES, how can you say it's a SNES game?  It's just a game that runs in emulators.

Quote
If it runs on real hardware, it's old and outdated. If it doesn't, it is advanced, unique and futuristic.

This is a retarded statement.

But whatever, clearly as a ROM hacker you have different goals than emu developers do.

Unfortunately for you, ROM hackers don't often write emulators... emu developers usually do.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: puzzledude on October 06, 2015, 11:03:52 am
Quote
Since you admitted Exlorom did not exist on the SNES, how can you say it's a SNES game? It's just a game that runs in emulators.
But don't you see Exlorom is made from Lorom. This is a Lorom (ie a SNES game) expanded and new data added. The original global engine of the game is not changed at all, it was just updated and expanded, repointer and remapped/reformatted. The data is still there. The data placement is better and fully used (the original was squeezed and poorly used= only what the actual game design needed).


Quote
For example, if I were to take your ROM hack, replace Link with a giant penis, and rerelease it, that would not be an official release of your hack.
It's one thing to deliberately mock the original, or if you actually fix its obvious mistakes, with minor changes.



from the memmap.cpp

Code: [Select]
void CMemory::Map_JumboLoROMMap (void)
{
// XXX: Which game uses this?
printf("Map_JumboLoROMMap\n");
map_System();

map_lorom_offset(0x00, 0x3f, 0x8000, 0xffff, CalculatedSize - 0x400000, 0x400000);
map_lorom_offset(0x40, 0x7f, 0x0000, 0xffff, CalculatedSize - 0x400000, 0x600000); //FuSoYa: Now restores 64Mbit support
map_lorom_offset(0x80, 0xbf, 0x8000, 0xffff, 0x400000, 0);
map_lorom_offset(0xc0, 0xff, 0x0000, 0xffff, 0x400000, 0x200000);

map_LoROMSRAM();
map_WRAM();

map_WriteProtectROM();
}
The original authors regarded the Exlorom as JumboLorom
As you can see only one line was edited! which was forgotten in 1.5 series, but is there in 1.47, that adds 8MB or 64Mbit support, and fixes this "typo".

So this is the simple Exlorom:
Code: [Select]
000000-008000= mirror of 400000-408000
008000-3FFFFF= empty by default (here is where you repoint new data to)
400000-7FFFFF= former Lorom data, max is 4MB (above 7E0000 reserved for RAM)

Do you now see it from the map, how a SNES game in an Exlorom is simply 4MB "shifted" to area 400000-7FFFFF. In the case of Alttp, which is only 1MB, and if restructure in Lorom 2MB, this makes it a 6MB.

Further repointing of data into 7-8MB and 0-4MB, makes it a 8MB Exlorom, with primary area: 400000-5FFFFF, area of repointing "forward"= 600000-7FFFFF and area of repointing "backwards"= 000000-400000.

In in other words, this is SNES game, which has been "very" expanded.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: DoomSwell on October 06, 2015, 11:11:24 am
I really liked GoW and PDQ so I tried to give this an honest attempt. I played for about an hour and a half and didn't feel like I got anywhere. The first mini-dungeon was variations of the same rooms over and over, the worst kind of maze. The next one (Misery Mire theme) was a little better but kinda the same. The 3rd one (Water Temple) was where I almost started to like it, block puzzles are a little old but they were being handed well.
Not sure how to feel about not being able to move while charging a spin-attack... The spin attack does need a nerf but that's not quite the right way to do it.

I understand LttP is hard to hack (Hyrule Magic is a buggy mess for example) so I can respect all the effort put into this. I just think it missed the mark.

I think "IQ test" is a bit of a misnomer as well, but of course it is.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Disch on October 06, 2015, 11:14:48 am
But don't you see Exlorom is made from Lorom.

That doesn't matter.  The hardware worked a certain way.  You are making a ROM that expects it to work a way other than it actually does.

This is like creating a new fake mapper on the NES.  Like creating a super mapper that adds the ability for tons of new graphics, a bunch of expansion sound, endless RAM, etc.  Yeah, you could do it... and it would be a "boon" to ROM hackers because they'd be able to make better "hacks"... but nobody is going to do it, because that's not what emulation is about.

In fact... there were mappers that were kind of like that in the past.  Mapper 6, 8, and like half a dozen others I can't recall off the top of my head.  So called "FFE" mappers.  These mappers didn't exist on actual cartridges, and only existed in ROMs that were hacked to use them.

No emulators support them anymore.

If you look at the iNES header, there's a flag to indicate whether or not there's a 512 byte trainer.  This trainer was designed to allow ROM hackers to have extra space for bootup code without having to free up space in the ROM.

No emulators support that anymore.


As emulation progresses, it's clear that accuracy takes priority over everything else.  SNES isn't going to be any different.  History is not on your side.



Emu developers are not going to try to keep pace with whatever bullshit features ROM hackers want to fabricate to make their hacks easier to produce.  They are only interested in emulating the system.

If you want to make games that aren't restrained by the limitations of ancient hardware -- don't make games for ancient hardware.  Use RPG Maker.  Use Game Maker.  Use Unity.  Use Zelda Classic.


In fact, this hack probably would have been a lot better if you made it in Zelda Classic.  SNES is really the wrong medium for this.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: puzzledude on October 06, 2015, 12:30:22 pm
Quote
I really liked GoW and PDQ so I tried to give this an honest attempt. I played for about an hour and a half and didn't feel like I got anywhere. The first mini-dungeon was variations of the same rooms over and over, the worst kind of maze. The next one (Misery Mire theme) was a little better but kinda the same. The 3rd one (Water Temple) was where I almost started to like it, block puzzles are a little old but they were being handed well.
Not sure how to feel about not being able to move while charging a spin-attack... The spin attack does need a nerf but that's not quite the right way to do it.

I understand LttP is hard to hack (Hyrule Magic is a buggy mess for example) so I can respect all the effort put into this. I just think it missed the mark.

I think "IQ test" is a bit of a misnomer as well, but of course it is.
Yes, well it is a nonconventional hack, much different from the standard game, and something complex is not neccesarily attractive.


Quote
Emu developers are not going to try to keep pace with whatever bullshit features ROM hackers want to fabricate to make their hacks easier to produce. They are only interested in emulating the system.
Exactly. Let's read this again: "They are only interested in emulating the system." This means they don't care about romhacking or hacks at all, nor advancing forward or updating. They just want to emulate the original - and for the purpose to be able to run original games. But do read the title of this website!

Also, how is save stating, cheating, bg layer disabling, fast forwarding, rewinding! mimicing the real hardware. Those features are gravly interrupting the standard concept of game play, meant for a game. Cheating allows to interrupt and change the RAM, which can make a game crash. All emus should not allow this then, but they do, because that's the beauty of emulation - it is much more advanced than real hardware and supports things, that the real hardware doesn't.


Quote
If you want to make games that aren't restrained by the limitations of ancient hardware -- don't make games for ancient hardware. Use RPG Maker. Use Game Maker. Use Unity. Use Zelda Classic.

In fact, this hack would have been a lot better if you made it in Zelda Classic. SNES is really the wrong medium for this.
Read the title of this website again. We, the hackers, are hacking the rom, since this is the most pragmatic thing to do. Everything is already there and it is the Snes engine, that everyone is so nostalgic about. This is what attracts us and the players and this is what we are good at. You always hook the ASM from the original rom, what else, and put in the new code. That's what this art is all about. Adopting, updating, changing the original.

Someone who makes games is a game designer, not a hacker/modder.

All other systems you metioned are a totaly different thing, since romhacking focuses strictly on the behaviour of the original game, learns from it and adopts/updates it. The result is always a modification of the original game. So is this game, it is a modification, based on the original.


Quote
don't make games for ancient hardware
But we don't, we modify games, which were once for ancient hardware. Now they are new/updated games for updated ancient hardware.

Don't you grasp the idea of romhacking. No sane person would be dumb enough to make an entire game from scratch (we are not a company with 300 workers).
All of our work is strictly based on the original game. In fact you always "hook" from the original code, and then insert new code in blank space. You always repoint, adopt, change, update what already exist, you never make it from scratch.

The result is a modification, an update of the original game. Such an update migh/or migh not require an update on hardware as well, but like said: a hacker is in charge of software.

Some advanced hackers might also be able to actually build editors for games and even recode emulators for their benefit, to bring this "update" into the thing, which will eventually run the game.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Disch on October 06, 2015, 01:05:53 pm
Exactly. Let's read this again: "They are only interested in emulating the system." This means they don't care about romhacking or hacks at all, nor advancing forward or updating. They just want to emulate the original - and for the purpose to be able to run original games. But do read the title of this website!

That's great and all.  But ROM hackers don't make emulators.  You keep saying Exlorom is the future of emulation -- and maybe even that's what the ROM hacking community thinks and wants.

But the reality is that the emulation community doesn't agree.  Accuracy is the future of emulation.  What ROM hackers want in an emulator is different from what emu devs want.  And what emu devs want is what goes, because they're the ones actually making the emulators.

These nonconformist hacks are going to fall to the wayside in future generations of emulators -- as future generations will get more strict and more accurate.  These hacks are dated because they do not adhere to hardware restrictions.  Hacks which do adhere will be timeless and will work on all future emulators.

Again... we saw this happen 10 years ago with NESticle.  You are doing the exact same thing.  You are making a game for SNES9x -- and not a game for the SNES.  Just as those old hacks were making games for NESticle and not for the NES.

When SNES9x is no longer the emu of choice, nobody will want to use it to play your hack.


Quote
Also, how is save stating, cheating, bg layer disabling, fast forwarding, rewinding! mimicing the real hardware.

As explained previously, those changes are invisible to the underlying software, and therefore do not compromise emulation accuracy.

I'm not saying emu devs don't like adding bells and whistles to make their emus more usable.  But they typically don't like adding them at the expense of accuracy.  Accuracy is top priority.

Quote
Someone who makes games is a game designer, not a hacker/modder.

Semantics.

Quote
Don't you grasp the idea of romhacking. No sane person would be dumb enough to make an entire game from scratch (we are not a company with 300 workers).

You wouldn't have to.  Zelda Classic already exists.  Game Maker already exists.

Also there's an entire world of indy developers.  And I don't think they would agree that they're dumb for making entire games.

Look at Pixel.  He was just one guy that made Cave Story from scratch.  The game was well received and he made a bunch of money off it.  I wouldn't call that dumb.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: abyssonym on October 06, 2015, 01:21:39 pm
I only play hacks that work on a flashcart, because I enjoy the nostalgic feeling of using a real SNES. That's why I've taken up hacking retro games; it's really cool to see my work show up when I turn on the SNES. If you can be nostalgic about software then I can be nostalgic about hardware. If you can get your hack to work on the hardware then I'll play it. Not saying that you have to, just that there's an audience for that sort of thing.

As a side note, I don't think there is a "future" for SNES emulation. We're in the final phase, and the vast majority of recent work is being done to make the emulators more accurate. Older, inaccurate emulators like ZSNES are being criticized by various communities such as speedrunners and even some romhacking communities. As far as developers are concerned, there are no more features to add... the only thing left is to make the emulators more accurate, because the only people who care anymore are people who are obsessed with the original hardware.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: goldenband on October 06, 2015, 01:50:29 pm
And how do you play a hack on real hardware. You need to make a cart then, which is by defalut an illegal act of cart making.

http://shop.krikzz.com/Super-EverDrive-v2-SPEDV2.htm
http://shop.krikzz.com/SD2SNES-Rev-F-SD2SNS.htm
http://www.retrousb.com/product_info.php?products_id=84

If it runs on real hardware, it's illegal. Because then you can make a cart and sell it (and it works). If it doesn't run on real hardware, it's legal.

There is absolutely no basis in copyright law for this statement. Whether or not it runs on real hardware, it's a derivative work under the law.

It's like claiming that if you copy the Kindle edition of a book, torrent it, but change it so that it'll only run on your personal Kindle emulator, you somehow haven't committed copyright infringement. Or -- even better -- that it's OK to rip, re-edit, and distribute DVDs as long as you transcode them to some format that can't be played on a DVD Player.

It's the content, not the reproducibility within a particular medium, that matters. And all ROM hacks are derivative works, full stop. Whether they have fair use protection when distributed as IPS patches is another question...

BTW I'm on Mac, so I'm not touching this hack either way. Might've tried it if it were playable on real hardware via a flashcart, but the hacker's behavior in this thread has certainly made it clear that my time is better spent elsewhere.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Bahamut ZERO on October 06, 2015, 02:39:19 pm
I don't see a problem with a romhack not running on real hardware when it's expanded like this one. I imagine this was partly done so Puzzledude wouldn't see repro makers disemboweling carts to sell for 30-50 bucks a pop. Am I bummed that I can't play this off PSP? A little. Does that mean I'll refuse to use one of the two emulators included? Hell no - I wanna play me some Zelda. :)


Which I'll be doing just that here soon as I have some free time.  :thumbsup: I enjoyed your other works, so I'm sure  I'll get some enjoyment out of this as well.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: puzzledude on October 06, 2015, 04:02:15 pm
Just a lovable fact. When the Alttp was first released in the 90s and we bought the cart, we could only play it on the SNES console.

According to some people here, the upper statement should be a crime... Let's read this again: "We could only play it on the SNES console". O, how very selfish of Ninteno, only 1 console (which would be an emulator today) to play on. Why couldn't we just play it on Mac, or gameboy, or Sega. I actually know people who would try to stick the SNES cartridge into Sega and Play station.

In addition there was a lovable text on the SNES cart: "only for" SNES to prevent such strange wishes.

So as you can see, the idea of something working somewhere is not really that selfish. It is a miracle that today we can play SNES on their rival consoles.

Any author of the hack should in some regard also know, where his game will be played on. I'll say it again: I'm not a company with 300 workers to test the game on Winsows, Mac, Linux, smartphones, anodroid, Wii, DS, PSP, real hardware, SNES doctor, sd2snes, powerpack, flash cart etc etc and only because someone wants to play it there.

I can only verify that the game works on any system, capable of running SNES roms, which also supports Exlorom mapping, and this mapping is quite known. This is not fabricated. I did not invent this format. The game is still the same, only the data has been moved around since the original is absurdly "squeezed" (why is this such a crime).

Here the proof of this well known mapping:
(http://www.bwass.org/bucket/map234.png)

Any emulator, which was done after 2001, should support this well know mapping system (but it unfortunately doesn't), despite the fact that the original hardware did not (pretty much like the emulator supports save stating and cheating and the original hardware doesn't).


PS
As far as I know the Snes9x (with 6MB Exlorom support) was ported to Windows, MAC, Nintendo DS and Wii. Just saying.
-----------


HOWEVER: quoted from the Romhacking rules section:
Quote
The following types of hacks are not accepted:
-Demos/Alphas/Betas: Any incomplete version of a hack, usually given out well before the final version is ready, for feedback or other purposes is not accepted. You may post such hacks on the forum.
-Texture Packs: Commonly made for Nintendo 64 games, and consisting of new textures which will be loaded in place of the originals. Actual texture hacks are acceptable (as long as they are complete ), however these packs are not.
-Sprite-Only Hacks: Typically single or few sprite only hacks are considered incomplete and/or non-improvements, and will not be accepted (Think Naked Mario hacks). Extensively difficult or artistic sprite hacks however may be considered.
-Emulator Specific Hacks: Any hacks that are known to only run properly on a single emulator such as ZSNES or Nesticle only hacks.

So according to the last line, anyone is welcome to flag this game as Noncompliant, which can/will result with its removal from the database.
--------------------------


However:
rule2 from forum rules:
Quote
RHDN should not be used as your vehicle to piracy - we're not a piracy ring. Any requests for or offers, either directly or indirectly, or hotlinking to illegal material, such as ROMs, ISOs, DVDRips, animations doesn't belong here. This includes discussion that would encourage or enable piracy of "0-day" or recently released games (discussing emulation problems, copy-protection cracks, etc). Discussion on "reproduction" cartridges is not considered within the scope of this forum and is not permitted.
This is a paradox then. Since if it is required for the game to work on real hardware (or Not on certain emus only), then it is automaticlly possible to make a repro out of it and sell it, which means that the RHDN would be used as a vehicle to piracy and even money making.
--------------------

By the way: my hack Goddess of Wisdom was downloaded from this site. IPS patched, Rom carted and it is still being sold today on ebay. Wasn't Romhacking.net thus used as a vehicle to piracy, since I was so generous and made the game compatible with real hardware (which I can do for any SNES hack obviously!).

Disch, I hope you are happy, you can play my lovable Goddess of Wisdom hack on a pirated cart on real hardware, and Higan as well, since it is compatible with real hardware, and you got your 100% emulation accuracy.

Goldenband, I hope you are happy, you can play my lovable Goddess of Wisdom hack on your Mac, using a SNES emu for Mac.

Now you are both happy and satisfied, everyone is happy, since the hack Goddess of Wisdom will run on any possible SNES emu that exists... but piracy has been done. I'm not happy.


So now we, the romhackers, are in the eyes of public bad people - we made this piracy possible, since we were dumb enough to make it compatible with "everything". So things are not ok.

Now that a certain hack is not compatible with everything, things are still not ok. Hm.
------------------------




Quote
Does that mean I'll refuse to use one of the two emulators included? Hell no - I wanna play me some Zelda.
Made my day.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Disch on October 06, 2015, 04:09:52 pm
It's clear we are talking past each other.

It's also clear you do not understand how emu development typically works.  When you've written an emu that obtains 95+% compatibility, then you can lecture me on why accuracy isn't important.  But until then, you just clearly don't understand.

If you are happy with your hack, fine.  That's great.  All I'm saying is that your choices are alienating people and making your hack harder to play.  If you're okay with that tradeoff, then there's really nothing more we need to talk about.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Chpexo on October 06, 2015, 04:16:43 pm
However:
rule2 from forum rules:This is a paradox then. Since if it is required for the game to work on real hardware (or Not on certain emus only), then it is automaticlly possible to make a repro out of it and sell it, which means that the RHDN would be used as a vehicle to piracy and even money making.
This is only a forum rule and doesn't apply to submissions. If you disagree with me, ask a submission reviewer or a moderator.

EDIT: Besides the fact that the game only runs on a modded emulator, the game seems to run fine and looks well done. I personally enjoy the block puzzles.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: abyssonym on October 06, 2015, 04:38:04 pm
So now we, the romhackers, are in the eyes of public bad people - we made this piracy possible, since we were dumb enough to make it compatible with "everything". So things are not ok.
So you know, Nintendo doesn't care whether or not your hack works on original hardware. Nintendo is opposed to ALL romhacks of their intellectual property, even when they're emulated and not used for commercial gain. You can see this because Nintendo has been targeting YouTube videos of Super Mario World romhacks. SMW romhacks compete with Nintendo's Mario Maker product, so they've developed a policy opposed to romhacks of their IPs.

Every rom hack is an unsanctioned derivative work of someone's intellectual property. Rom hacks use copyrighted characters, copyrighted assets, copyrighted code... all the reasons why you want to hack a rom, and not use game maker software, are the same reasons why rom hacks infringe on copyright. As such, every rom hack, even when distributed in patch form, falls under the umbrella of the ill-defined term "piracy". Now, in the United States, copyright infringement is a civil issue, not a criminal issue... so there's a good chance no one would ever call you out for making a rom hack. But they'd be entirely within their legal rights to do so, as we've seen many times in the past with other rom hacks. And if you did end up going to court over a rom hack, there's no guarantee that Fair Use would protect you.

You don't have the high ground because your hack doesn't work on hardware. Nintendo doesn't care about hardware. They don't make any money off of used SNES carts being sold. Nintendo cares about emulation, because they make money off of their own SNES emulators. If you made a hack that works on emulators but not hardware, you'd be doing more damage than if you just made a hack that works on hardware but not emulators.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Chpexo on October 06, 2015, 04:45:36 pm
So you know, Nintendo doesn't care whether or not your hack works on original hardware. Nintendo is opposed to ALL romhacks of their intellectual property, even when they're emulated and not used for commercial gain. You can see this because Nintendo has been targeting YouTube videos of Super Mario World romhacks. SMW romhacks compete with Nintendo's Mario Maker product, so they've developed a policy opposed to romhacks of their IPs.
This is not just limited to romhacks. Nintendo has pulled the plug on fan made projects like Super Mario 64 HD. If you use any of Nintendo IP without their permission, it's illegal.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Quick Curly on October 06, 2015, 05:04:00 pm
I don't generally play SNES hacks, let alone Zelda SNES hacks, and I'm definitely no emulator developer, but I can get an idea of where Disch and puzzledude are both coming from.

I recall puzzledude establishing their frustration in the past about how people who didn't have anything to do with their projects have made money off of them after puzzledude is the one who spent all of the time and effort doing the work, which can definitely be discouraging and infuriating.

However, this is the risk that we as ROM hackers take when we pursue such a hobby, instead of trying to make a quick buck under the noses of the government and gaming companies as cartridge reproducers.

After all the work that gets put into a project in general (whether a ROM hack, editing utility, emulator, or whatever, but in this case specifically, a ROM hack), what does it matter what the restrictions are? If a person like me who doesn't generally play SNES hacks isn't going to play it anyway, why should puzzledude cater to my specific desires/needs? It's their project. As far as I'm concerned, they can make it however they choose to, and that's perfectly fine with me.
As long as a project details the specific ROM to use, and compatible emulators if applicable, then if a person really wants to play it, it should be easy enough to follow if it's what a player really wants to do. If the person isn't going to play the hack anyway, then it shouldn't matter.
For example, when ahakomi uploaded their SMB3 hack to share publicly, it was on a file sharing site that you couldn't download from without registering an account first. So, I did that. I could have asked, "Why not upload it to Dropbox or another file sharing site that I won't have to take 5 minutes to make an account on just to download one file?", but I wasn't going to ask for them to do even more work just to make it easier for me.

Now, as for the hack not lasting through the test of time, as long as the appropriate files are readily available, if a person really wants to play it should they be able to find it, they will.

Being "accurate" as it relates to emulation and the real SNES, in my opinion from what I can understand, puzzledude has established that it's not their intention, which yes, I get is understood.
So, it is what it is.
When it comes to ROM hacking, it's pretty much the decision of whoever is doing the project for what it becomes.
We as the potential players just sit back and do nothing but get presented with the final product.
It's likely just because of who I am, and that's just for trying to find the good in people and things, so I don't judge the project for what it could be, which according to Disch, would be more accurate in terms of true SNES standards.

As for the concept of the hack itself with being more technical than action based, yeah, it's not for everyone, but I really don't care to see reviews for hacks that say a hack isn't their style and not to play it, when everyone is different. Same as the "Bad Hacks" genre. They're viewed as immature and overly simple to just throw a bunch of obscene imagery in without really ever changing the levels or anything else in the game to provide a motivating, worthwhile new experience from the original game, but whatever floats their boats. For myself, I feel that both action and technical styles can be fun, alone or together.

Sure, this probably wasn't even my place or a topic to just come in and spout a bunch of random ramblings.
But, I've kept up with puzzledude's posts and projects in the past, and recall how they truly don't care for the illegal cartridge reproductions of their work combined with the unchanged elements of the original game(s), and making money from selling those physical reproductions. So, I just wanted to express some positive reinforcement for the project as a whole.

Again, though, I can understand Disch's concern that if a hack does some crazy stuff that isn't "parallel" (in a sense) with developing emulation standards, it might not carry through to the future, but be stuck in a branching path of the tree of hacking ventures overall that we could very well possibly never see again.

But, if the way that puzzledude has made this hack is so that it isn't compatible with real hardware, knowing their past experiences of having to see their time and effort helping to illegally put money in someone else's pockets, I have no problem whatsoever with their choice. One day, I might feel like giving it a try as well only to quickly discover just how "Zelda stupid" my IQ level really is. :laugh:
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: SunGodPortal on October 06, 2015, 05:11:57 pm
Quote
(I didn't know if you noticed the new Armos gfx SGP)

Yeah that was cool. That and the way the room was set up really gave it a fresh feeling. It's inspiring because it's difficult to make "the same old boss battles" feel fresh and that's what you've done here. You made that boss battle play totally different without making any changes to the boss behaviour (from what I could tell). That's one of my favorite things about ROM hacks. Adding stuff if great, but finding different and creative ways to alter what already exists is usually what I find the coolest. Without cheating, I had to devise a very specific strategy to make it through. I had to use my brain rather than simply exploiting game items or mechanics to make the boss quick and easy. The GFX was the icing on the cake though.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Again, play the hack, people. There's been so much said in this thread but maybe only two comments about the gameplay. *YAWN*
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Azkadellia on October 06, 2015, 06:44:15 pm
[18:33:04] <MKendora> Disch is mostly wrong.
[18:33:52] <MKendora> the actual limit hardware can do with a LoROM-esque cart would be 8MB - 64K
[18:34:18] <MKendora> and the only difference is whether a single fucking address line is hooked up.
[18:34:34] <MKendora> the SNES can recognize way more than 8 MB directly.
[18:35:03] <MKendora> It might never have made it through Nintendo's bullshit, but...
[18:35:51] <MKendora> the simple fact is that you could do it all with a couple of TI chips. Not even a real address decoder.
[18:38:41] <MKendora> all but a handful of SNES carts ignore the top bit of the address. (The unit itself does care).
[18:39:29] <MKendora> all the stuff Disch is whining about "doesn't work on hardware" is simply allowing the virtual cart to hook up the virtual A23 bit.
[18:39:47] <MKendora> just like the real Tales of Phantasia cart uses the real A23 bit.
[18:40:23] <MKendora> there's not a damn thing special about "HiROM" or "LoROM".
[18:40:42] <MKendora> If you want to, you can create a cart that uses a mix of the two.
[18:40:55] <MKendora> it will run on a real SNES.
[18:41:56] <MKendora> basically, there's a CART (or is it /CART?) line.
[18:42:16] <MKendora> anyway, that's what the cart NEEDS to pay attention to.
[18:43:02] <MKendora> if you want it to, it doesn't even need to pay attention to the address lines.
[18:43:24] <MKendora> (Be a fucked up way to program, but it would technically work)
[18:45:09] <MKendora> but... anyway, banks 7e and 7F are always off-limits to the cart. It'd take someone with more EE experience than me to explain what happens if you respond to those requests.
[18:45:54] <MKendora> other than that, all addresses where the 40:0000 bit or the 00:8000 bit are set are always fair game.
[18:47:05] <MKendora> if your cart chooses to respond to all of them, that's your call.
[18:47:23] <Lakmir|Work> FWIW, SRW Gaiden uses both hirom and lorom addressing.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Disch on October 06, 2015, 07:02:42 pm
I never said you couldn't create a cart which supports this addressing.  I said there wasn't one.

You can create a CD addon for the NES if you want to.  But that never actually existed, so emu authors are not likely to emulate it.

Again, Exlorom is effectively a custom mapper that was fabricated for the purposes of ROM hacking.  It falls outside the realm of emulating hardware.

In the ROM hacking world -- that's all fine and good and it may seem logical that every emulator should support it -- but the majority of the emu development scene simply does not agree.  Which is why this hack doesn't work in most emus.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: SunGodPortal on October 06, 2015, 07:51:18 pm
Quote
Again, Exlorom is effectively a custom mapper that was fabricated for the purposes of ROM hacking.  It falls outside the realm of emulating hardware.

In the ROM hacking world -- that's all fine and good and it may seem logical that every emulator should support it -- but the majority of the emu development scene simply does not agree.  Which is why this hack doesn't work in most emus.

Is it that they don't agree or that having to accomodate it is not common and therefore it is skipped over because in the grand scheme it isn't that important? Some faux-Nintendo consoles don't support certain games but it's likely not because the designers were opposed to certain mappers, but were just being lazy.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Disch on October 06, 2015, 07:59:29 pm
It's more that emulating cartridge hardware is a lot more complex than most ROM hackers think it is.  Especially since SNES ROMs tell you nothing about the cartridge layout.

EDIT:

I actually just talked to MKendora on IRC about this and we both pretty much seem to agree that the way most emus handle cartridge emulation is retarded.  He actually proposed an idea that would allow for Exlorom to exist without sacrificing accuracy which I totally agreed with, but I didn't think there was really a way to effectively implement it with how SNES ROMs are commonly distributed.


Bottom line -- this isn't as simple of a problem as puzzledude might think.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Erockbrox on October 07, 2015, 01:25:36 am
The life of a Repro-maker:

- New Zelda IQ hack on the market, but can't use it $0.00

- Hires a programmer to enable using the game on a real cart $300

- Orders parts and buys old Super Nintendo carts for the new games $500

- Making money off of another persons hard work... priceless!


Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: B.B.Link on October 07, 2015, 03:00:03 am
 :huh:

You really need to let that "You vs Piracy" and "I'm the victim" shit go.

Between this and that "seminar" thread, it sounds like you really need to step away from ROM hacking for a while. People are going to repro no matter what you do and you're not entirely innocent in the matter either. You may took the time to create the ROM hack, but its STILL the original game developers who created the code that you're rearranging, which is yet again a grey area issue on legal here. How do think they feel (if they gave a shit) you messing with their hard work? Piracy annoys me too, but the war you have against it is a loosing one. Repro comes with rom hacking and if don't like it then maybe you should try Game Maker or Zelda Classic (is that still alive?), or simply walk away for this because its clearly eating you alive.

As for the hack, it won't boot on my Retroarch or Snes9xGX for the modded Wii, and since I don't sit on my comp to play hacks, I can't say anything about it.

EDIT:

OK got it to boot on and old version of Snes9xGX I still had on the SD card to play SMW hacks with broken music. I'll test it tomorrow.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: SunGodPortal on October 07, 2015, 03:44:38 am
Quote
Between this and that "seminar" thread, it sounds like you really need to step away from ROM hacking for a while. People are going to repro no matter what you do and you're not entirely innocent in the matter either. You may took the time to create the ROM hack, but its STILL the original game developers who created the code that you're rearranging, which is yet again a grey area issue on legal here. How do think they feel (if they gave a shit) you messing with their hard work? Piracy annoys me too, but the war you have against it is a loosing one. Repro comes with rom hacking and if don't like it then maybe you should try Game Maker or Zelda Classic (is that still alive?), or simply walk away for this because its clearly eating you alive.

So he released his hack in a format that makes life more difficult for repro makers. Big deal. If this is the thanks a person gets for releasing a ROM hack (a thread where people are whining about formats and next to nothing is said about the game itself) maybe we should all quit and just shut down the site.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: tc on October 07, 2015, 04:30:26 am
The philosophical side doesn't really matter here.
By definition of the phrase, a properly behaved SNES hack can, does, and must be able to operate on a SNES. Making the potential ability to create repros inevitable (no matter how difficult/impractical).
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: SunGodPortal on October 07, 2015, 04:51:17 am
Quote
The philosophical side doesn't really matter here.
By definition of the phrase, a properly behaved SNES hack can, does, and must be able to operate on a SNES. Making the potential ability to create repros inevitable (no matter how difficult/impractical).

You stated that the philosophical side didn't matter, then followed it up with your philosophy on what constitutes a ROM hack. :P
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Erockbrox on October 07, 2015, 06:31:24 am
If you are not happy with a repro maker making your hack then why not send them a private message asking for them not to use your work? But see, its all about demand and supply.

There are people out there who really enjoy playing rom hacks on an original snes cart so thats why repro makers make the carts. People are simply willing to pay for it.

The best thing you can do if you enjoy hacks on original hardware is just get an SD2SNES. This is what I did and it was a great decision. But then again you can't really collect hacked games if they are on a SD card if you really want to display them on your shelf.

Just tell the repro makers that you only want the game being played on a flash cart and that it is not to be sold. Hopefully there are cart makers out there who would respect these wishes.

In my opinion another option is just to sell the game yourself.

If you made a hack then make up a bunch of carts and just sell the game yourself and beat the repro makers to the punch. After you have made a respectable amount of money off of it and because you can take pre-orders and get the game out before the repro makers even have a chance then you can make the best of this situation.

Do it like this:

- Don't release your game for download yet
- Tell everyone you are making a hack
- Tell everyone that you are selling your hack
- Take preorders, say 200 people want a cart
- Make the carts your self with your hack
- Mail them all out at once
- At least you got something for your hard work by getting some money

Only after the game has been mailed out could someone rip the rom from the physical game and then host it online. For example say one of your customers was a repro makers and wanted to sell your game. So what if they put the rom online, you have already earned your initial money so at this point you just then post it online for free.

Or maybe host it for download on your own personal website and ask for donations when they download the patch.

And who really cares about these legal issues anyway? Here is a short story from me.

When I was young I got an NES with some games. Then I got an SNES with some games. Then I got an N64 with some games. Then I got a GBA with some games. These were all purchased from the stores as new items, not second hand. I and my parents have given Nintendo lots of money over many years and I personally feel as if its a slap in the face to a consumer who all they want to do is make a zelda snes hack and release it on it internet.

You know, Nintendo isn't perfect either. What about Shaq-Fu snes and Super-Man 64? Those games were sold by Nintendo and were so bad that they basically ripped off anyone who bought them. Nintendo Seal of Quality? That seal means nothing other than "give us your money now".

So selling millions of copies of crap games to people is legal yet if a person makes a modification to one of them its illegal? What if I hacked Super-Man 64 an order to make it better and to actually make it a good game? Is that illegal?

Nintendo should realize that these old games are nothing more than abandon ware and that they should personally offer these games on their download stores for FREE just as a courtesy.

Knock knock Nintendo Donkey Kong isn't the most popular game anymore like it was back in 1981. Dumba$$ company.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: zhade on October 07, 2015, 06:44:15 am
im stuck in the second dungeon, the one with the holes everywhere, I managed to progress a bit but cant seem to find a way to get the second key which is probably in the top left chest under the "PUZZ" room. I thought I was making progress when I got the big key but all I managed to get with it is a full heart container, never have been so disapointed at finding a heart countainer :P. I must have tried all holes combination so there clearly is something I missed or cant figure out.. I guess I got low IQ  :huh:
I didnt really understand the first dungeon, I kind of wandered through it without knowing where I was going and ended up finding my way through. The 3rd dungeon looks fun with the block puzzles but I want to finish the second first but its been an hour now since I got the heart container and im going crazy  :banghead:

Edit:
I dont know if there is a spoiler policy since this is the front page news thread for the hack but I guess if someone is willing to help me he should send me a pm so that people dont get spoiled.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: puzzledude on October 07, 2015, 07:16:55 am
Quote
im stuck in the second dungeon, the one with the holes everywhere, I managed to progress a bit but cant seem to find a way to get the second key which is probably in the top left chest under the "PUZZ" room.
From the entrance go up and drop down the most upper hole you can reach. Drop down a few more times on the neighbour holes. You are now in the room with big holes, you are on the left side of the room. Perform a dash jump (run right with shoes and the bounce will take you across the pit). Drop down the very left pit. You will auto drop in the next room to the key.




------------------------------------
Just so that everyone knows:
The user obscurumlux01 has flagged this hack as Noncompliant and the staff might remove this work-of-art hack from this site.

Probable Reason for his act: the hack is not compatible with his reprocarts and thus can not be soled in his Reprocart-making piracy store.

So basically if he can not fill his pockets with money, based on someone else's work, the hack is no good and must be deleted.


The hack however IS emulator specific, which is apparently in conflict with this site's policy.

BUT I don't make emulators. Every emu could easily add this STANDARD EXLOROM MAPPER to it and make the game compatible with it.

But emu makers tend to mimic real hadware so perfectly, that they are blind to this STANDARD FORMAT FOR ADVANCED ROMHACKING.

And because emu makers are blind to this STANDARD FORMAT FOR ADVANCED ROMHACKING, is what makes this game emulator-specific. Some people, like makers of Snes9x as well as Fusoya, are fortunatelly not blind, which is basically why you can play this game.


IMPORTAINT
This hack by Fusoya uses the same/similar format!
http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/11/

His however is Exhirom 6MB, supported only by Snes9x and Zsnes (like my hack - since in my case the emus included are also Snes9x and Zsnes).

Take a look at the review of his hack. The title is "One of the best".

Are we going to remove "One of the best" hacks from this site just because of the way it is mapped.



JUST SO YOU KNOW
To change the mapping of the hack back to Lorom is EASY, just as is EASY to add Exlorom mapper support to all emulators.


The main reason of Fusoya's and my choice of hack mapping was to STOP ILLEGAL CART MAKING and obviously also to prevent others to edit the game further.

But apparently IF YOU WANT TO STOP THE PIRATES and other hack abusers, it's a crime.


I agree that the game, which is emulator specific is questionable! and looses audience! and looses credibility! and compatibility, but THE REPRO HORROR HAS BEEN STOPPED.

It is because of my game that Romhacking.net WAS NOT USED AS A VEHICLE FOR PIRACY. Just following the site's Rules.

It is because of all other hacks, which are compatible with real hardware, that Romhacking.net WAS USED AS A VEHICLE FOR PIRACY.

If however playing a freeware game on a freeware emulator is a crime ALSO, why isn't the entire site banned then (this could easily be done, since Nintendo brought down sites). But only the sites which host roms! They tend to "leave" the sites such as this one with PATCHES only.

They are heavily against any emulation though, but that goes mainly for up-to-date consoles! not 20 year old extinct game, from which they made no more money of.




We could however put the removal of both hacks to the POLL. Let's vote, like in any democracy:
-Do you want IQ and TLC removed from this site (since they ARE emulator specific, since they use advanced romhacking methods) or not?


PS
The games just use another mapper (ironically this is not even a format but only a rom Expansion), otherwise the code itself is completely based on original game and thus compatible with real hardware - the hardware just doesn't know where to look, isn't that ironic.


October 07, 2015, 08:01:00 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Quote
If you made a hack then make up a bunch of carts.
Erock, you know better that I despise hardware in general. The hardware is the devil - my oppinion. The hardware is what brings the grey area of romhacking into the black area of romhacking (no area is white though).


Quote
You really need to let that "You vs Piracy" and "I'm the victim" shit go.

Between this and that "seminar" thread, it sounds like you really need to step away from ROM hacking for a while. People are going to repro no matter what you do and you're not entirely innocent in the matter either. You may took the time to create the ROM hack, but its STILL the original game developers who created the code that you're rearranging, which is yet again a grey area issue on legal here. How do think they feel (if they gave a shit) you messing with their hard work? Piracy annoys me too, but the war you have against it is a loosing one. Repro comes with rom hacking and if don't like it then maybe you should try Game Maker or Zelda Classic (is that still alive?), or simply walk away for this because its clearly eating you alive.
Not a chance. I'm just getting started. And by the way not only can we engage pirates, we have WON.

Me and Fusoya - hyperhackers, who made it, and put an end to repro cart making. Namely, the IQ is not only Exlorom, it also has a super anti-repro-cart Lock (ignored by Emus!), which makes the game completely incompatible with real hadware - and yet emulates the game normally. But you need an Emulator in any case, just not hardware, because hardware is the devil.

Me and Fusoya, the pioneers of a new age, where romhacking is safe from repro abuse. NOTE: with this new format Conker DEMO hack and Oracle of Secrets DEMO were locked also (in this case to prevent data extraction).

In fact I can do any existing or future SNES Lorom hacks in this "format" and thus allow the author to stop the abuse of their hacks, if this is their wish.

Makes me want to Open a Subforum on Zeldix (where the IQ hack mapper IS allowed, why wouldn't it be) to host Patches for all other quality ROMs in this format - current and future.

With this a new subforum for all hacks of this sort would emerge.

The author of ANY Lorom SNES HACK can thus, because of me, choose:
-release unlocked (maximum compatibility, but carts possible)
-release locked (normally played on specific emus only, prevents carts and prevents data extraction and any editing of the rom all together)

Note
the author could also choose to release the locked to the public and unlocked to his friends!


It's the dawn of the new era.



Not to mention what you can do to a game, which allows 8MB, you can make prodigy ASM, GFX, levels etc etc, but obviously based on real game, since this is what this art is all about. Don't make me laugh with Zelda classic and make-from-scratch methods - read the title of this site - all the work is strictly based on original game!
Making games from scratch is something completely different!



By the way, I'm thinking of bringing out the so called MIMIC emulator, my own (recoded) personal emulator, which will Not support save stating, cheating and bg layer disableing, to allow players to play, as if on real hardware (litterally!). And of course with ALL freakin mappers! (there's only 4 of them Lorom, Hirom, Exlorom, Exhirom, how difficult is that, seriously). So you can play any SNES hack and game, that ever existed, on it.



October 07, 2015, 08:16:11 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
PPS

If the hack gets removed, you can always get it here:
http://www.zeldix.net/f15-complete-hacks


where it IS "allowed", why wouldn't it be, seriously.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: tc on October 07, 2015, 09:59:52 am
Deviating from conventions Nintendo expected developers to follow isn't a crime. Misguided or unnecessary perhaps, that depends on the situation.

The cart makers are infringing on both the original creators' work, and any distinctly definable new elements hacked in.
You should have grounds to defend yourself using the law.

You stated that the philosophical side didn't matter, then followed it up with your philosophy on what constitutes a ROM hack. :P

That's why I specified SNES. The hardware variances between SNES consoles are rigid enough, it's safe to say when a hack isn't going to work on any SNES.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Disch on October 07, 2015, 11:11:49 am
So puzzledude is a ROM hacker illegally taking someone else's work and using it to their own end... while simultaneously complaining about repro makers illegally taking someone else's work and using it to their own end.

The irony astounds me.


If an unauthorized party is selling your work, you can sic the law on them.  Oh wait... no you can't... because you don't have the copyright on a ROM hack because ROM hacks are just as illegal as repro carts.  Talk about the pot complaining that the kettle is black.


Quote
this work-of-art hack from this site.
[snip]
because emu makers are blind ([even though I know nothing about making emulators])
[snip]
Me and Fusoya, the pioneers of a new age,

FFS, The ego on this guy.


This all suddenly makes perfect sense.



EDIT:

Also, I tried this hack.

Level 1 is basically just systematically trying every path until you find the one that leads you to the exit.  It's more of a teleport maze than a puzzle... and one that can really only be solved by trial and error.

I quit before I got very far, but it sounds like level 2 is the same idea but with pits instead of teleports.

Not exactly an IQ test.  More a test of patience.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: puzzledude on October 07, 2015, 11:34:38 am
The game was released as a PATCH, which requires for you to OWN the original, to able to enjoy this freeware "add on". The rom was never released. A cart is a ROM, the patch is not.


Quote
is a ROM hacker illegally taking someone else's work and using it to their own end
Without making money or hurting the original authors whatsoever, since they already made money on this game (8 million copies soled by the way). We are making no profit what so ever, and don't release any Actual copyrighted material.

By the way: the PATCH which was published contains My Personal Work only, without the original code. I OWN the code (hacked part) which I released.

A cart maker doesn't own anything, Not the original, Not the modified code. They don't even own the phisical cart, since the cart was taken from some other game. They don't even own the freakin manual (booklet) or the paper-box the game is in.

I never released anything owned by original authors - not even the picture of Link on a paper.

All I released were ones and zeros of my personal work. I own this code. (Isn't software beautiful.)



A cartmaker however is hurting the original authors. He is distribuing/selling roms, we do not sell, not even distribute roms, not even pictures of copyrighted game-heros. Patch is useless if you don't OWN the original.

With repro cart you don't need to own the original.


Quote
because ROM hacks are just as illegal as repro carts
Yes, they are, however the ROM hack was never released, and it never will be (the irony of romhacking).

By the way, I personally own the code, which I released.
I have copyrights of my code and my puzzle designs are under my copyright and the new item Morning star, which is a prodigy ASM, is owned by Conn. Original game did not have this item, nor the puzzles. The original game was simply used to "run" the whole thing.


That's the main difference between GREY and BLACK, don't you see the difference in colour.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Disch on October 07, 2015, 11:42:30 am
EDIT - you know what?  Forget it.

Why am I even bothering.

You know as much about copyright law as you do about emulator development:  none.
It's easy to make yourself out to be the victim when you completely make shit up and misrepresent the law.

I'm not going to argue with some kid half my age whose ego is so big he can't even see he doesn't have the first clue what he's talking about.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: puzzledude on October 07, 2015, 12:37:29 pm
Quote
I'm not going to argue with some kid half my age whose ego is so big he can't even see he doesn't have the first clue what he's talking about.
I can never be half your age since then you could almost be a grandfather.

And I do know what I'm talking about. Every sane person would know, that you can not sell, what you don't own. You can not sell, if someone else has made it - let's forget the law - this is common sense.

Can I sell your car. No I can't. Can I distribute, what I personally made - yes I can. (I'm not even selling it). Ie a patch.

Can I distribute, what I don't own, ie the code of the original. No I can't. Thus I can not link to a ROM, not original and not modified. And I can not make a cart obviosuly (contains the rom).

Every sane person using common sense would see, that selling of carts is without doubt wrong, while distribution of Patches is not wrong or (a lot less) wrong.
-----------


Also, I would appreciate, that next time I make a release of a hard-work project, that you don't pollute the topic with obscure debates on something so irrelevant as a mapping method of the ROM and endless debate over how much legal/illegal romhacking is. We know how things stand.

Regarding the ego. It was not my intention, it was a simple reaction to people who don't appreciate the gift given to them.

Do you know, how much "sacrifice" was neccesary to finish this project: developing, designing, algorithmic brainstorming, remapping, prodigy ASM endless debugging, endless testing, emulator recoding etc etc. Every sane person would give up long ago.

And then Patch making, uploading, submitting, linking, and then giving it away For Free.

Excuse me if, as a reward for all this, I don't want to be backstabbed Again by seeing my game soled on ebay on a illegal cart... Again.

Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: badinsults on October 07, 2015, 12:41:10 pm
This hack looks interesting, but I think that creating an artificial limitation so that it works only in a specific emulator is pretty silly. Since I got my SD2SNES, I hardly ever use emulators for playing SNES games. It is pretty shocking that hacks are still being made that do not conform to hardware, especially given that accurate emulators exist now, and flash carts to play on real hardware are easy to get.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Disch on October 07, 2015, 12:54:14 pm
prodigy ASM

Yes, yes.  We all know you're God's gift to ROM hacking.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: puzzledude on October 07, 2015, 01:12:13 pm
Like I said before, this Great hack by Fusoya:
http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/11/


uses the same strategy of mapping (his is Exhirom 6MB, mine is Exlorom 8MB, both are in the domain of the above 4MB Expansion, Exhirom is even more exsotic!). Both ARE specific-emulator hacks. Why is his game not flagged or discussed to death on the mapper choice?!

His hack is here since 2003! and the community had no problems whatsoever with it!
-------------------


Quote
prodigy ASM
Yes, yes. We all know you're God's gift to ROM hacking.
The ASM was written by Conn. I actually don't do ASM, but everything else. You should have seen the code he wrote for the Morning Star New weapon. Months of struggling and brainstorming on his part. This is really not ego, it is a fact. I'm not the author of ASM.

And now Link can give those Morning Star knights their payback! Because they are now not the only ones with this awesome weapon (which is actually also a Hookhot, so it is a Hookshot upgrade).

Also ASM - ice rod freezing water to walk over - which is impossible to do. Multipushable blocks, water block (makes water trail, but can not push a block if standing in water), brown block (can not push block over brown trail but can walk over it), stone block (clones another block over pushed block in the direction pushed).

Prodigy is actually a mild word of what wizardness Conn did to Alttp hacking community (not even all ASM could be used in this game). On the other forum he was given the "rank" Zelda Legend.

Again, this is not me, but him. No egos here, just facts.

Funny part - when I wanted to credit him for being in charge of ASM - he said "not neccesary to credit me".
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Disch on October 07, 2015, 02:16:25 pm
Why is his game not flagged or discussed to death on the mapper choice?!

I didn't flag your hack.

Honestly I don't care that your hack doesn't conform to hardware.  I've stated this numerous times.  If you're okay with the resulting trade-off, which it appears you are, then fine.  I really don't give a shit.


The only point at which this really turned into an argument was when you started speculating about the future of emulators when you have no experience in emu development.  So you were effectively talking out of your ass, and I was trying to put emulation in historical context to show you that your predicted future is not a likely one.  I figured since I actually do have experience in emu development, I might be able to shed some light on that for you -- but that just made you super defensive for whatever reason.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Gideon Zhi on October 07, 2015, 02:23:02 pm
Just tell the repro makers that you only want the game being played on a flash cart and that it is not to be sold. Hopefully there are cart makers out there who would respect these wishes.

(http://agtp.romhack.net/temp/ohwaityoureserious.gif)
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: patuli on October 07, 2015, 03:00:10 pm
What I found funny here is that tremendous garbage like "dick nazis headless mario" and other trash like that; are not only allowed here, but encouraged to be made and upload, but a normal or high quality hack like this is not allowed and flag for removal.

This guy made very clear that he did what he did, in order to prevent repromakers of doing business with is work.
I remember a few years back Magno have a similar discusion for someone making repros for his Spanish seiken densetsu 3 work, Everyone knows that he doesn't own anything other than his translation or in this case his work, but seen all your work goes to some repro guy is very demotivate and discourage.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: puzzledude on October 07, 2015, 03:08:57 pm
Quote
What I found funny here is that tremendous garbage like "dick nazis headless mario" and other trash like that; are not only allowed here, but encouraged to be made and upload, but a normal or high quality hack like this is not allowed and flag for removal.
A+


Quote
I figured since I actually do have experience in emu development.
Nice, then you might know what the difference is between real hardware and emulation: save states, cheats, fast forwarding, bg layer disabling. If an emulator has these "strange" abbilities, that the real hardware hasn't, how difficult it is to throw in some more mappers. This is still real hardware emulation - on a different place. How is save state "invisible" and reading a data, shifted by 4MB, "not invisible".

Why can't I tell the emulator to read like real hardware, but staring from 400000, rather than 000000. This should be easy to implement in any emulator, while emulation accuracy is preserved. And Snes9x and Zsnes are doing that. Why can these emus do it, and Higan not?

I mean why do emu makers bother with "cheating" abbility - this completely breaks any game. Wrong value can crash the game. This is not invisible.


Quote
Just tell the repro makers that you only want the game being played on a flash cart and that it is not to be sold. Hopefully there are cart makers out there who would respect these wishes.
Already done with Parallel Remodel in a lovable and naive Legal Notice. Cart was on ebay 20 days after the release. Because you see, carters are like wilde beasts, like lions. And: "does the lion ask permission to kill a zebra". No, HE TAKES IT.

Does a cart making game abuser ask for permission to make carts. No, HE TAKES IT.

Can you guess the movie, from where this is from?


But with this game: "thy shall not do the cart".



Remember everyone, this exsotic format was only an "answer" to cart making of my previous projects. If my previous projects were not carted, I would never release a game in this format. It is a simple reaction to their action.

Makes me want to make a spoof hack entitled: romhacker vs. repro cart maker.


Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: B.B.Link on October 07, 2015, 03:10:44 pm
I agree with a lot of what Disch said. Puzzledude ethics on rom-hacking is delusional, egotistical, and downright scary, but if that's what he want to believe, that's on him. We should just leave this subject alone and talk abut the real topic at hand which is the actual hack itself........................which I can't play right now. I'll try it when I get home.

EDIT:

After reading the above. Something is really wrong with you  :huh:.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Disch on October 07, 2015, 03:19:33 pm
I remember a few years back Magno have a similar discusion for someone making repros for his Spanish seiken densetsu 3 work, Everyone knows that he doesn't own anything other than his translation or in this case his work, but seen all your work goes to some repro guy is very demotivate and discourage.

I guess I don't identify with this.

ROM Hacking is fun.  It's about the process.  If you enjoy doing it, it kind of doesn't matter what happens with your work after it's done because the joy came from doing it.

Puzzledude was fawning over Conn's humility and willingness to let other people use his work in a previous post.  That I understand.  He does what he does because it's fun for him.  He doesn't care about getting credited because that's not what's important -- what's important is doing it.  I'm kind of the same way.  I've helped people on these boards when they ask questions, or need something to be debugged, or need a certain asm hack, or whatever.  And I'll help them out because the process is fun for me.  What they do with my work after they have it -- I couldn't care less.

I mean I wrote an entire music driver for some random guy to put in his hack -- and the hack never saw the light of day.  Do I have regrets?  Not a one.

And quite honestly... if you're in this scene for praise -- you're kind of in the wrong scene.  Not only do people typically not care about individual ROM hackers (unless they really stand out above the rest), but you also have to compete with guys like repro makers -- and other hackers stealing your work.  This is a culture of piracy, and when you get pirated, you have no recourse.  So if getting pirated bothers you, this is a bad place to put yourself.


I mean why do emu makers bother with "cheating" abbility - this completely breaks any game. Wrong value can crash the game. This is not invisible.

I've already explained this as best I can.  If you still don't understand, the only other thing I can tell you is to try to write an emulator.  You'll learn pretty quick the difference between fudging emulation accuracy (exlorom) and adding features that have nothing to do with the actual emulation (savestates).


EDIT:

few corrections to my word choice.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: puzzledude on October 07, 2015, 03:51:50 pm
Quote
Puzzledude ethics on rom-hacking is delusional, egotistical, and downright scary, but if that's what he want to believe, that's on him. Something is really wrong with you.
So a hard-working person who never makes a dollar and is doing a lot and lot of sacrifices: mapping, testing, debugging, designing, uploading etc etc

and then puts all this hard work out For Absolutely Free, just because unknown people across the planet can enjoy,

is unethical and there's something wrong with him, but if someone is selling the work of others, than this is ethical.

It's like saying people who steal are ethical, and a hardworking  worker is unethical - he should be rather stealing to be ethical.

Don't you get it - someone who works like crazy and sacrifices his free time for others to enjoy, while he suffers, asking for no money, which by default belongs to him - since money is justified with work; thus work= money... Isn't this a definition of nobility.

No, that is not how I would define unethical, this how I would define a saint. Or a pro-bono lawyer maybe. Or a pro-bono doctor in Africa healing the sick.

I call these people (and romhackers are among them) IDEALISTS, who are doing general good, beyond any reasonable logic.

Every minute of playing, which you can enjoy on any video game, is equvivalent to hours and hours of working and specially testing - in this case done for free.

Where is Nintendo's new 3D Zelda for WiiU - already finished in 2014. Well - in debugging/testing phase. The entire company is debugging and testig for over a year. Their money will be well deserved! Imagine they would put the game out for free. Bliss. Well that's what we, romhackers are - idealists.

All that we want in return is some freakin respect. (Not a cart up our ass and not - "this game stinks"  and "there is something wrong with you" up our ass).

If I don't want, that a random bywalker wants to sell my car to a third person, why is this such a wrong wish. This is common sence, don't you think.



By the way: WHERE are cart makers, when a Dungeon needs to be made, WHERE are cart makers, when an ASM code needs to written, WHERE are cart makers, when a new GFX needs to be drawn, WHERE are cart makers, when you need to debug, WHERE are cart makers when exausting beta testing needs to be done.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: SunGodPortal on October 07, 2015, 04:05:23 pm
What a bunch of shit. This thread is fucking pathetic. I don't really know what else to say.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Disch on October 07, 2015, 04:06:28 pm
EDIT:  nevermind.  I was just being a dufus here  :laugh:
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: puzzledude on October 07, 2015, 04:15:02 pm
Quote
After reading the above. Something is really wrong with you.
Your false assumption comes from the fact that you like carts. So if someone is against that, then he is according to you odd.

And by the way - I was quoting a line from a movie.


To all cart makers: The Glove Has Been Thrown!

To all cart makers: If you can undo my anti-cart lock, you are free to make as much carts of this game as you possibly can, I don't mind.


Quote
What a bunch of shit. This thread is f**g pathetic.
A+
But don't worry SGP, next time I simply won't make a so called News submission, so we can Not discusse this bunch of sh**t.



Quote
Where are you when they're making carts?
Preparing my samurai sword for them.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: dougeff on October 07, 2015, 04:24:37 pm
Let it goooo
Let it gooooo
Everybody just let it go. (Frozen reference)
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: B.B.Link on October 07, 2015, 04:46:20 pm
Your false assumption comes from the fact that you like carts. So if someone is against that, then he is according to you odd.


I told you before I don't support repros, nor do I give a shit about them selling GAME DEVELOPERS copyrighted material. If my Dr. mario world hack was popular enough to be repro I would be more flattered than angry, but there will be nothing I could do because we're all villians in the outside world, HACKER or REPROer alike. Your not the victim here. Its just that your obsession with these repros is rediculous.

But nothing I say is going to make a difference on this so i'm done.

Good luck in your fight, dawg.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: tc on October 07, 2015, 05:24:28 pm
So a hard-working person who never makes a dollar and is doing a lot and lot of sacrifices: mapping, testing, debugging, designing, uploading etc etc

and then puts all this hard work out For Absolutely Free, just because unknown people across the planet can enjoy,

is unethical and there's something wrong with him, but if someone is selling the work of others, than this is ethical.

It's like saying people who steal are ethical, and a hardworking  worker is unethical - he should be rather stealing to be ethical.

Don't you get it - someone who works like crazy and sacrifices his free time for others to enjoy, while he suffers, asking for no money, which by default belongs to him - since money is justified with work; thus work= money... Isn't this a definition of nobility.

No, that is not how I would define unethical, this how I would define a saint. Or a pro-bono lawyer maybe. Or a pro-bono doctor in Africa healing the sick.

I call these people (and romhackers are among them) IDEALISTS, who are doing general good, beyond any reasonable logic.

Every minute of playing, which you can enjoy on any video game, is equvivalent to hours and hours of working and specially testing - in this case done for free.

Where is Nintendo's new 3D Zelda for WiiU - already finished in 2014. Well - in debugging/testing phase. The entire company is debugging and testig for over a year. Their money will be well deserved! Imagine they would put the game out for free. Bliss. Well that's what we, romhackers are - idealists.

All that we want in return is some freakin respect. (Not a cart up our ass and not - "this game stinks"  and "there is something wrong with you" up our ass).

If I don't want, that a random bywalker wants to sell my car to a third person, why is this such a wrong wish. This is common sence, don't you think.



By the way: WHERE are cart makers, when a Dungeon needs to be made, WHERE are cart makers, when an ASM code needs to written, WHERE are cart makers, when a new GFX needs to be drawn, WHERE are cart makers, when you need to debug, WHERE are cart makers when exausting beta testing needs to be done.

Of course stealing other people's work is unethical. I don't think anybody here is debating that.

The central part of our argument, is that the method being used to stop repros isn't perfect. It limits the ability of people who are NOT cart makers and NOT stealing your work, from playing the game on their console or emulator of choice.

Myself I'd put hacks that don't confirm to SNES hardware on the grandfather clause in a sense. Encourage new works to only do so when necessary (some hacks may very well have a specific need for it). Removing them years after release doesn't feel right, I agree.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: SunGodPortal on October 07, 2015, 05:44:20 pm
Quote
but there will be nothing I could do because we're all villians in the outside world, HACKER or REPROer alike. Your not the victim here. Its just that your obsession with these repros is rediculous.

You don't see the difference between someone who is being creative and trying to protect their work and someone else who only cares about making money from someone else's work which they had nothing to do with? To me that is a key difference. Money changes everything. It's not like any of what we do here is completely legal, but trying to suggest that what a hacker does as a hobby (with no ill consequences) and what a repro maker does to scam people (the hacker and the buyer) is equal seems strange. They may not be that different in the eyes of the law, but does the law really matter in this context?

Let's say I'm watching TV one day and I hear a funny joke. I then proceed to tell said joke to my frineds with a few words changed. I'm sure most people would agree that that is perfectly acceptable. Now, let's say that I go out and try to sell said joke to my friends (and my enemies). Most people would see a clear difference there and that the latter is clearly unacceptable.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: B.B.Link on October 07, 2015, 06:41:52 pm
You don't see the difference between someone who is being creative and trying to protect their work and someone else who only cares about making money from someone else's work which they had nothing to do with? To me that is a key difference. Money changes everything. It's not like any of what we do here is completely legal, but trying to suggest that what a hacker does as a hobby (with no ill consequences) and what a repro maker does to scam people (the hacker and the buyer) is equal seems strange. They may not be that different in the eyes of the law, but does the law really matter in this context?

Let's say I'm watching TV one day and I hear a funny joke. I then proceed to tell said joke to my frineds with a few words changed. I'm sure most people would agree that that is perfectly acceptable. Now, let's say that I go out and try to sell said joke to my friends (and my enemies). Most people would see a clear difference there and that the latter is clearly unacceptable.

And you don't see the difference between me not caring about any of this and puzzledude obsession with the repro stuff. Finished.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: SunGodPortal on October 07, 2015, 07:06:16 pm
Quote
And you don't see the difference between me not caring about any of this and puzzledude obsession with the repro stuff. Finished.

hahaha Then why offer your 2 cents if you "have no dogs in the race"?

Besides, if you take into account how much time it takes to make a complete hack and how much time and effort goes into hacking this game specifically I believe Puzzledude's attitude toward repro nerds is warranted. Why wouldn't someone be upset if they worked on something for hundreds of hours for their own creativity and expression only to see someone else profit from it (while they receive nothing but complaints about the format, fufufu)? While I still believe what he has done here is a bit strange and I would not do the same thing myself, I can understand perfectly well why he would do as such. Especially since I also hack said game and it is a bitch. But then again, you don't care about any of this. So why are you here again?
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: goldenband on October 07, 2015, 07:52:22 pm
You don't see the difference between someone who is being creative and trying to protect their work and someone else who only cares about making money from someone else's work which they had nothing to do with?

The problem is that when ROM hackers or translators start taking measures to "protect" their work, it claims ownership of something that by definition isn't theirs to begin with. Derivative works like ROM hacks and fan translations belong to the original IP owner from the moment of their creation, and no one else, and it doesn't matter if you've put in five minutes or a thousand hours.

I've repeatedly seen the exact same thing with concert bootleg traders, anime fansubbers, people who release public domain movies, and so on. Many of those people are paranoid about unauthorized use of "their" work and take drastic, over-the-top countermeasures, but seem oblivious to the fact that they have neither legal or moral standing to claim any kind of ownership over anything they've done. It literally doesn't belong to them!

It's also irritating when people repeatedly point out the existence of flash carts as a perfectly legitimate, non-profit way to play games on real hardware, and that valid point gets ignored. And quite frankly, outside of a handful of games, most repro makers are much more interested in translations/localizing than hacks anyway. That's where the profit is -- making fancy reproductions of translated games, especially RPGs.

If I wanted to make a hack that would defeat repro makers, a much better option would be to add required code that uses the CX4 chip. No one's going to sacrifice a Mega Man X2/X3, or even the corresponding Rockman carts, just to make a repro of a Zelda hack. Plus people could still play it on real hardware with the right flash cart, so it's win-win.

But I also think that worrying about repros is silly and neurotic, and like others in this thread, I'd be flattered and amused if someone made a repro of something I'd worked on. I've had things to which I own the legitimate copyright show up in all kinds of random places on the Internet, and I could either throw a hissy fit over the loss of control, or just enjoy knowing that people are interested in my work. Guess which option I picked?
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Gemini on October 07, 2015, 08:18:26 pm
And quite frankly, outside of a handful of games, most repro makers are much more interested in translations/localizing than hacks anyway. That's where the profit is -- making fancy reproductions of translated games, especially RPGs.
Pretty much what I thought. No matter how good this IQ test hack could be, I honestly doubt somebody would bother to make a cart. It's not like repro makers are running low on other kinds of hacks that would actually appeal a broader public.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: B.B.Link on October 07, 2015, 09:59:19 pm
So why are you here again?
I'm here because I wanted to voice my opinion on puzzledude antics, Why are you here, to continue to wipe puzzledude's ass?

EDIT:

You know what, lets step outside and discuss this >:D. Fistticuffs style.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: SunGodPortal on October 07, 2015, 11:17:23 pm
Quote
I'm here because I wanted to voice my opinion on puzzledude antics, Why are you here, to continue to wipe puzzledude's ass?

hahaha Just showing my support. :)

Quote
EDIT:

You know what, lets step outside and discuss this >:D. Fistticuffs style.

We could, but I don't think either of us has arms long enough to reach the other.

EDIT: I missed this so I'll go ahead and reply here.

Quote
The problem is that when ROM hackers or translators start taking measures to "protect" their work, it claims ownership of something that by definition isn't theirs to begin with. Derivative works like ROM hacks and fan translations belong to the original IP owner from the moment of their creation, and no one else, and it doesn't matter if you've put in five minutes or a thousand hours.

Your reply indicates that you've totally missed the point of what I was saying. A post ago I said:

Quote
It's not like any of what we do here is completely legal, but trying to suggest that what a hacker does as a hobby (with no ill consequences) and what a repro maker does to scam people (the hacker and the buyer) is equal seems strange. They may not be that different in the eyes of the law, but does the law really matter in this context?

Which means I don't give a shit about a legal argument. The only ones that can be made are opposed to all of our interests here. Therefore, who cares? Not relevant. My argument is not about legality, it's about someone who is scamming someone else (repro makers scamming ROM hackers for personal profit) being losers and not wanting to support them. How is that difficult for people to understand?
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Erockbrox on October 08, 2015, 12:05:55 am
The only reason why I'm supporting Puzzledude on this issue is because I want to gain his trust so that one day he will send me a copy of the IQ test hack that is compatible with real hardware so that I can then make repros of my own and sell those.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: SunGodPortal on October 08, 2015, 12:15:13 am
Quote
The only reason why I'm supporting Puzzledude on this issue is because I want to gain his trust so that one day he will send me a copy of the IQ test hack that is compatible with real hardware so that I can then make repros of my own and sell those.

Busted!
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: xnamkcor on October 08, 2015, 12:29:58 am
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v90/xnamkcor/SfmDxGetSwapChainStats.png)

It'd be cool if the program I'm forced to use as part of the DRM even worked.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Disch on October 08, 2015, 01:02:15 am
The only reason why I'm supporting Puzzledude on this issue is because I want to gain his trust so that one day he will send me a copy of the IQ test hack that is compatible with real hardware so that I can then make repros of my own and sell those.

I wonder.... are hacks of hacks allowed?

Like... if I made a hack based on this hack which made it conform to hardware -- would that be something I could submit to the site?

( Not that I'm going to do this -- I'm just wondering  :P )
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Zynk on October 08, 2015, 01:06:23 am
The only reason why I'm supporting Puzzledude on this issue is because I want to gain his trust so that one day he will send me a copy of the IQ test hack that is compatible with real hardware so that I can then make repros of my own and sell those.
oohaha sarchazmz errheegursh

I wonder.... are hacks of hacks allowed?

Like... if I made a hack based on this hack which made it conform to hardware -- would that be something I could submit to the site?

( Not that I'm going to do this -- I'm just wondering  :P )
Yes you can, its called an Addendum. You have to credit the original hacker tho.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: SunGodPortal on October 08, 2015, 01:40:10 am
Quote
I wonder.... are hacks of hacks allowed?

Like... if I made a hack based on this hack which made it conform to hardware -- would that be something I could submit to the site?

( Not that I'm going to do this -- I'm just wondering  :P )

Don't worry about it. Erock's already got a plan. But we gotta keep it a secret from Puzz, okay?
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: xnamkcor on October 08, 2015, 01:55:26 am
Do we have any quality control rules? Like, if a hack is not reasonably playable, can it be refused?
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: SunGodPortal on October 08, 2015, 02:09:55 am
Quote
Do we have any quality control rules? Like, if a hack is not reasonably playable, can it be refused?

The shot above looks like you're missing a dll.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: B.B.Link on October 08, 2015, 02:16:39 am
If a hack was created, but no one plays it. Was it ever really created. Think about it............................ ;)
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: xnamkcor on October 08, 2015, 02:19:51 am
The shot above looks like you're missing a dll.

The DLL was included in the package.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: SunGodPortal on October 08, 2015, 02:59:08 am
Quote
If a hack was created, but no one plays it. Was it ever really created. Think about it............................ ;)

Here's me playing as I am confronted with a rather complex block puzzle.

(http://dl.dropbox.com/s/c28ta7uuclwhoyf/blockpuzzle.png)

The copy of the ROM that I routinely work with turned out to be the exact one I needed and I already knew how to use ZSNES so I had absolutely no trouble getting this hack to run. I patched, I opened ZSNES and played. Simple as that. Perhaps the title of the thread should be "Time to test your ability to follow basic instructions". hehehe
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: puzzledude on October 08, 2015, 03:44:51 am
Quote
"Time to test your ability to follow basic instructions". hehehe
A+
Or maybe I should add The Terms of Use:
"Player, follow these instruction and thus agree to the terms of use, if not - go outside and play some basketball, why are you sitting on a comp, complaining."


Quote
but seem oblivious to the fact that they have neither legal or moral standing to claim any kind of ownership over anything they've done. It literally doesn't belong to them!
The code presented in the form of the patch belongs literally to me alone. I never released anything done by original authors.


Quote
I'd be flattered and amused if someone made a repro of something I'd worked on
Then why don't you let me sell your car for 15,000$. I would be happy - I gained 15,000$ by selling your car, a customer is happy - he bought a car. And you - who are now without your car and without money - would be flattered.
What beyond-dumb ideas.


Quote
The only reason why I'm supporting Puzzledude on this issue is because I want to gain his trust so that one day he will send me a copy of the IQ test hack that is compatible with real hardware

The game was glued together from Lorom parts into one Exlorom. No version of glued Lorom (ie compatible with everything) exists.


Quote
that I can then make repros of my own and sell those.
no, no, no



Quote
If a hack was created, but no one plays it. Was it ever really created.
If you don't like/play the game, someone else will; if nobody likes/plays the game, god will.


Quote
It'd be cool if the program I'm forced to use as part of the DRM even worked.
Do we have any quality control rules? Like, if a hack is not reasonably playable, can it be refused?
The DLL was included in the package.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v90/xnamkcor/SfmDxGetSwapChainStats.png)
Let me tell again, the game works! Why do you think I tested it and suffering while doing the testing. The game was played through from beginning to end around 10 times!! on both emus!, which obviously work.
You just have Your Computer Messed-Up.

Original snes9x did not have this DLL included at all. You had to find it online and put it into the System folder of Windows. I fixed all that for your convenience.

Also do note: if you don't have directX (a whole bunch of DLLs) or Framework installed, which you don't, you really can not play any games on your comp.

Some dumb protection-filled antiviruses and Windows7, 8, 10 hiper dumb protection measurements will also refuse for you to use any additional/manually added DLLs, unless you "register" them (this is very difficult to do and requires the use of CMD command line to put the DLL "to the list" in the Register).

This hyper dumb move by Microsoft is not protection at all, it simply dissallows you to use completely usable programs.


Try to run a harmless program called Add-ons by Euclid, which can make Alttp sprites stronger. On XP= no problems, Win7 and above - all DLLs blcked (manual registering needed).


So you see this really has nothing to do with this game, or this emulator, it is just Windows refusing the DLL needed to run the program.

See this DLL is in the folder itself - no need for Windows to read from the System folder (where it might or not might be - based on whether you installed DirectX or not).

But your comp/Operating system is obviously dumb enough to not run it, since it sees as something alienated, and requires for you to register the DLL with a CMD command, so that this info gets written into the REG.

The one to blame for your problem is - Microsoft.

Knowing the above, imagine how beyond-dumb your statement is that my hack needs qulity control.


What does a hack have to do with this. Absolutely nothing - you have a problem with the emulator, as a result of a paranoid-programmed Windows, or its settings!, or you don't have DirectX.


PS
If you are unable to run a program on your comp, you can always use Zsnes, which is less complex, and does not require such a DLL to be registered.


October 08, 2015, 03:54:26 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Note: Any user who has his Operating System installed properly ie normally, should NOT encounter this problem, since by default the DLL is run automatically in concordance with the EXE in the same folder.

Of course if you have a messed-up comp/OP, who can not run simple programs in a normal fashionable way and no DirectX (needed to play ANY Game), then it is another story.
----------

Copy pasting the EDLL.dll of the program to
C:\Windows\System32

migh also solve the problem. But like I said, if this fixes the problem, the Operating system is just dumb/or has dumb settings. The registering of dll might still be needed nevertheless.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: tryphon on October 08, 2015, 03:55:19 am
Then why don't you let me sell your car for 15,000$. I would be happy - I gained 15,000$ by selling your car, a customer is happy - he bought a car. And you - who are now without your car and without money - would be flattered.
What beyond-dumb ideas.

While Im not totally comfortable with the idea of repros myself, your comparison is beyond-dumb. If you clone my car and sell the clone, so I keep my original, then yeah, it'd be more accurate.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: xnamkcor on October 08, 2015, 04:17:32 am
A+
Or maybe I should add The Terms of Use:
"Player, follow these instruction and thus agree to the terms of use, if not - go outside and play some basketball, why are you sitting on a comp, complaining."

The code presented in the form of the patch belongs literally to me alone. I never released anything done by original authors.

Then why don't you let me sell your car for 15,000$. I would be happy - I gained 15,000$ by selling your car, a customer is happy - he bought a car. And you - who are now without your car and without money - would be flattered.
What beyond-dumb ideas.

 
The game was glued together from Lorom parts into one Exlorom. No version of glued Lorom (ie compatible with everything) exists.

no, no, no


If you don't like/play the game, someone else will; if nobody likes/plays the game, god will.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v90/xnamkcor/SfmDxGetSwapChainStats.png)
Let me tell again, the game works! Why do you think I tested it and suffering while doing the testing. The game was played through from beginning to end around 10 times!! on both emus!, which obviously work.
You just have Your Computer Messed-Up.

Original snes9x did not have this DLL included at all. You had to find it online and put it into the System folder of Windows. I fixed all that for your convenience.

Also do note: if you don't have directX (a whole bunch of DLLs) or Framework installed, which you don't, you really can not play any games on your comp.

Some dumb protection-filled antiviruses and Windows7, 8, 10 hiper dumb protection measurements will also refuse for you to use any additional/manually added DLLs, unless you "register" them (this is very difficult to do and requires the use of CMD command line to put the DLL "to the list" in the Register).

This hyper dumb move by Microsoft is not protection at all, it simply dissallows you to use completely usable programs.


Try to run a harmless program called Add-ons by Euclid, which can make Alttp sprites stronger. On XP= no problems, Win7 and above - all DLLs blcked (manual registering needed).


So you see this really has nothing to do with this game, or this emulator, it is just Windows refusing the DLL needed to run the program.

See this DLL is in the folder itself - no need for Windows to read from the System folder (where it might or not might be - based on whether you installed DirectX or not).

But your comp/Operating system is obviously dumb enough to not run it, since it sees as something alienated, and requires for you to register the DLL with a CMD command, so that this info gets written into the REG.

The one to blame for your problem is - Microsoft.

Knowing the above, imagine how beyond-dumb your statement is that my hack needs qulity control.


What does a hack have to do with this. Absolutely nothing - you have a problem with the emulator, as a result of a paranoid-programmed Windows, or its settings!, or you don't have DirectX.


PS
If you are unable to run a program on your comp, you can always use Zsnes, which is less complex, and does not require such a DLL to be registered.


October 08, 2015, 03:54:26 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Note: Any user who has his Operating System installed properly ie normally, should NOT encounter this problem, since by default the DLL is run automatically in concordance with the EXE in the same folder.

Of course if you have a messed-up comp/OP, who can not run simple programs in a normal fashionable way and no DirectX (needed to play ANY Game), then it is another story.

There are hundreds of hacks that all work on real hardware and most emulators. Yours is the only one that needs a special program to run.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: puzzledude on October 08, 2015, 04:29:06 am
Those "special" programs are standard Snes9x and a standard Zsnes emulators (used by 70% percent of all players who play Snes hacks), which support a standard Exlorom mapper used for advanced romhacking.

But you are right: the game is emulator specific (that's why it is flagged for removal and admins are discussing this).

BUT this hack:
http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/11/

uses the same mapper as mine. It is Exhirom and ALSO emulator specific (since some of us are just interested in advanced romhacking).

Why is SMW hack The Legend Continues by Fusoya Not a problem (the hack is on this site since 2003 - no problems), but mine is a problem - yet they are of the same (advanced) kind (it is just a Expansion method, not even a format).
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Erockbrox on October 08, 2015, 04:39:50 am
That's it, I am personally going to reverse engineer this hack for play on original hardware myself.

*sends Puzzledude a PM*

Title reads: Please tell me how to reverse engineer this hack
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: zhade on October 08, 2015, 04:43:58 am
So I found the second key, following your instructions, in the second dungeon but It only opened a path to another room where a key is needed  :banghead:
I know there is got to be something in one of the rooms with lots of holes where there is a strange statue with 2 stars surrounding it but I cant seem to find a way to get there, I thought the 2nd key would get me to a room with a teleporter that would transport me to the top-left part of the first room, but there seem to be nothing there.

Btw, about the whole exlorom thing, its not that I think the conversation is pointless but before playing the hack I looked at the comment section looking to find what people were thinking about the hack and it took a long time to find someone who actually tried it and gave some feedback. I understand that it makes sense to talk about it here because the hack uses this weird "format" (or whatever its called) and people seem to have an opinion on wether it should be used or not and thats fine but the whole comment section now looks like an emulation philosophy debate instead of talking about the game. For anyone like me who doesnt really understand all the technicality about the issue and only wanted to hear what people think about the modifications made to Alttp, it all seems kind of off-topic.

I dont understand why this hack should be flagged for removal because it wouldnt work on real hardware or needs a specific emulator when other hacks use chips like the MSU-1 which never existed in the snes era and also only work on certain emulators, I guess a chip could be made to make this hack work on real hardware, even tho the chip doesnt exist at the moment, it theoraticaly could work... right ? Then again I dont know much about all this so dont bash me too hard if what im saying is complete nonsense but just let people who want to play this do please... This site has the best repertory of quality hacks and I think this one deserves to be in here too.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: xnamkcor on October 08, 2015, 04:45:56 am
Those "special" programs are standard Snes9x and a standard Zsnes emulators (used by 70% percent of all players who play Snes hacks), which support a standard Exlorom mapper used for advanced romhacking.

But you are right: the game is emulator specific (that's why it is flagged for removal and admins are discussing this).

BUT this hack:
http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/11/

uses the same mapper as mine. It is Exhirom and ALSO emulator specific (since some of us are just interested in advanced romhacking).

Why is SMW hack The Legend Continues by Fusoya Not a problem (the hack is on this site since 2003 - no problems), but mine is a problem - yet they are of the same (advanced) kind (it is just a Expansion method, not even a format).

Your ROM isn't unplayable on most emulators because it's "advanced", it's because you purposefully obfuscated it to control how it can be played.

So I found the second key, following your instructions, in the second dungeon but It only opened a path to another room where a key is needed  :banghead:
I know there is got to be something in one of the rooms with lots of holes where there is a strange statue with 2 stars surrounding it but I cant seem to find a way to get there, I thought the 2nd key would get me to a room with a teleporter that would transport me to the top-left part of the first room, but there seem to be nothing there.

Btw, about the whole exlorom thing, its not that I think the conversation is pointless but before playing the hack I looked at the comment section looking to find what people were thinking about the hack and it took a long time to find someone who actually tried it and gave some feedback. I understand that it makes sense to talk about it here because the hack uses this weird "format" (or whatever its called) and people seem to have an opinion on wether it should be used or not and thats fine but the whole comment section now looks like an emulation philosophy debate instead of talking about the game. For anyone like me who doesnt really understand all the technicality about the issue and only wanted to hear what people think about the modifications made to Alttp, it all seems kind of off-topic.

I dont understand why this hack should be flagged for removal because it wouldnt work on real hardware or needs a specific emulator when other hacks use chips like the MSU-1 which never existed in the snes era and also only work on certain emulators, I guess a chip could be made to make this hack work on real hardware, even tho the chip doesnt exist at the moment, it theoraticaly could work... right ? Then again I dont know much about all this so dont bash me too hard if what im saying is complete nonsense but just let people who want to play this do please... This site has the best repertory of quality hacks and I think this one deserves to be in here too.

I agree, the MSU hacks are kinda worthless.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: zhade on October 08, 2015, 04:54:44 am
I agree, the MSU hacks are kinda worthless.

Its not what I meant, I never played any MSU-1 hacks personally, but I think its nice that the snes can be enhanced with it to add CD quality audio and stuff. What I meant is that if MSU-1 hacks are allowed (which I think is a good thing) why should this be flagged for removal ?
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: puzzledude on October 08, 2015, 05:11:59 am
Quote
Btw, about the whole exlorom thing, its not that I think the conversation is pointless but before playing the hack I looked at the comment section looking to find what people were thinking about the hack and it took a long time to find someone who actually tried it and gave some feedback. I understand that it makes sense to talk about it here because the hack uses this weird "format" (or whatever its called) and people seem to have an opinion on wether it should be used or not and thats fine but the whole comment section now looks like an emulation philosophy debate instead of talking about the game. For anyone like me who doesnt really understand all the technicality about the issue and only wanted to hear what people think about the modifications made to Alttp, it all seems kind of off-topic.

I dont understand why this hack should be flagged for removal because it wouldnt work on real hardware or needs a specific emulator when other hacks use chips like the MSU-1 which never existed in the snes era and also only work on certain emulators, I guess a chip could be made to make this hack work on real hardware, even tho the chip doesnt exist at the moment, it theoraticaly could work... right ? Then again I dont know much about all this so dont bash me too hard if what im saying is complete nonsense but just let people who want to play this do please... This site has the best repertory of quality hacks and I think this one deserves to be in here too.
A+
Exactly, MSU-1 is not compatible with real hardware - remove all MSU-1 hacks then (dumb idea isn't it). Real hardware just can not advance - like romhacking can.



THIS PART IS ACTUALLY ABOUT THE GAME (not a mapper debate)
Quote
So I found the second key, following your instructions, in the second dungeon but It only opened a path to another room where a key is needed
The key is right there you just need to light all torches (you must find a fire rod).
Hint: from the most upper floor (when you are in the most right-upper corner), drop down the most left upper pit that you can reach, now drop the most left upper pit that you can reach again.

Drop some more to come to the room with that Knight statue. Perform a dash jump across the pit to the suspicious Knight statue with stars= ie a secret is near if a star is near; and try to move/lift it. You are going to need some lifting power...
--------------------------




Quote
Your ROM isn't unplayable on most emulators because it's "advanced", it's because you purposefully obfuscated it to control how it can be played.
The aswer here is Yes and No. The game uses an advanced Expansion, which allows it to have more space (that's all there is to it). All the data has been repointed. The organization of data is far beyond the poor and squeezed original.

This allows the game to be better in any way. The warp maze is not possible if not all room-header data is available.

Ie: standard hacking= leave as original (D57 are for room headers)
advance hacking (this game)= repoint to address 200000 and use unlimited space for room header, but "exotic" Exlorom format.

Don't you see, we simply need space, and if you want more than 4MB, you need this mapping. More space does not mean all needs to be filled, it mean the organization of data is better and advanced, still leaving empty space, which doesn't "add up".

This data reorganization goes beyond the scope of original or standard Alttp romhacking, I call this hex gluing or advance romhacking; which any "normal" Alttp hack would not use (they would just edit it with Hyrule Magic program - which makes an below average/bugged data organization).

This allows me to have infinite sprites for instance, infinite room-header properties ie rooms transitions etc etc. Standard hacking will not allow this.




October 08, 2015, 05:18:39 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Quote
That's it, I am personally going to reverse engineer this hack for play on original hardware myself.

*sends Puzzledude a PM*

Title reads: Please tell me how to reverse engineer this hack
There is nothing to "reverse". The hack is an Exlorom, glued together from Loroms. The "glued" can not be Lorom, since it uses Exlorom pointers (not compatible with Lorom if repointer "backwards").

There are 2 ways to make this a standard Lorom and thus compatible with real hardware:
-I have to glue all Lorom parts into Lorom instead of Exlorom (a whole bunch of work just to give carters a bone - not my thing, Plus - space problems! - I would have to "squeeze" the data= ie compress the GFX, since currenlty it is left uncompressed)
-Prodigy hex editing of the Exlorom to remap it to Lorom, plus remove super anti-cart lock (ignored by Emus). Also because of the space problem (gfx is not compressed) this would have to be 4MB.

But you know: The Glove Has Been Thrown (to the cart makers).

If anyone is capable of doing the latter (prodigy hex editing of the Exlorom to remap it to Lorom), than this person has beaten me. I would be defeated and I would respect the hyper-intellect of that person and let him do as many carts as he wants= he deserved it- he has beaten my lock. He did awesome work, he did an aweson job= he deserves it.

He could even put this "delocking" on this site as an Addendum. He made a hack, he hacked a hack to now be able to be played on real hardware.

He would hack a hack (this is deep).

Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Erockbrox on October 08, 2015, 05:34:35 am
Hey kids, did you ever want to just play video games all day and not have to worry about going to school? Well now you can with Puzzledude's Zelda 3 IQ Test TM. Discover how the Universe works while pushing around blocks and come up with your own theories on how to solve the various problems just like Einstein. Tell your teacher to go such on a lemon while pushing your mind to the limits all while just trying to get the game to run in the "mysterious" emulator in the first place.

Once you have beaten the entire game take on the "second quest challenge puzzle" of making a legitimate repro cart that runs on actual hardware. So what are you waiting for? Take on the quest for greatness and download Puzzledude's Zelda 3 IQ Test TM for a mind boggling good time.

Puzzledude's Zelda 3 IQ Test TM and all content related is copyright of Puzzledude 2015. All right reserved. Patent pending. Any and all derivative works that infringe on this IP will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Violators may be charged up to a maximum of $250,000 and serve up to 10 years in prison.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: puzzledude on October 08, 2015, 05:48:34 am
Lol. It's IQ all the way (playing wise and remapping wise).


Do note: that I own The Patch, not the game itself. Thus the game can never be soled by anyone - unless Nintendo puts it on Wii (they own the original and my additional code is freeware, so they own it all - regarding selling - not the actual author-copyright). Funny part: they (who are the only ones who have the right) will of course not do that.


Quote
game to run in the "mysterious" emulator in the first place.
The emulator is Not mysterious at all, the game... maybe (but how can a freakin 4MB global shift= basic definition of basic Exlorom expansion, be so mysterious and controversial).

Hell, even I could recode Snes9x and Zsnes to run Exloroms (if they wouldn't), since I know the code for both very well, unlike for other emus. Plus, I did Not invent this format - I took the existing standard.


October 08, 2015, 06:06:58 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Something to cheer this strange topic up:
(http://www.romhacking.net/newsimages/newsimage1655a.png)
PD says: "Link, everyone is upset, the way the game is mapped."
Link says: "Who gives the damn about mapping, Exlorom, DLLs and shit, load the freakin game in the Emu and play it; and give me that AWESOME NEW WEAPON programmed into this - The Morning Star, so I can kick ass."

PS
This is the FIRST ZELDA GAME which uses a Brand new awesome item - the Morning Star, which you can see on the picture above. (otherwise this weapon is used by Morning star knigts in Alttp).


Just saying:
Do you think I'm interested in the exotic 6MB Exhirom format of Fusoya's SMW hack The Legend Continues - no, I play the freakin game - on an EMU on a comp obviously - where the hell am I going to get Real hardware, which was extinct in the 90s or other illegal real hardware clones, or illegal carts/flashcarts. This is nowhere to get, plus his hack is free - carts and hardware is not. Yes, hardware is the devil, stay in software people.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: tc on October 08, 2015, 06:36:15 am
Hardware or not Nintendo already had an officially approved 6MB standard. If your hack does something that would've been significantly more difficult with the Tales of Phantasia mapper, I can understand.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: zhade on October 08, 2015, 07:03:14 am
Hey kids, did you ever want to just play video games all day and not have to worry about going to school? Well now you can with Puzzledude's Zelda 3 IQ Test TM. Discover how the Universe works while pushing around blocks and come up with your own theories on how to solve the various problems just like Einstein. Tell your teacher to go such on a lemon while pushing your mind to the limits all while just trying to get the game to run in the "mysterious" emulator in the first place.

Once you have beaten the entire game take on the "second quest challenge puzzle" of making a legitimate repro cart that runs on actual hardware. So what are you waiting for? Take on the quest for greatness and download Puzzledude's Zelda 3 IQ Test TM for a mind boggling good time.

Puzzledude's Zelda 3 IQ Test TM and all content related is copyright of Puzzledude 2015. All right reserved. Patent pending. Any and all derivative works that infringe on this IP will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Violators may be charged up to a maximum of $250,000 and serve up to 10 years in prison.

Lol. The installing part is to make it dumb-proof, if you cant follow simple instructions on a readme file, go back to school kids, you aint got enough einstein in you for this :P But seriously, its pretty simple, personally I got an error with snes9x and it crashed but zsnes worked fine and it all didnt really took more time than using an ips patch.

If the "Second quest" is what you are into, have fun, just dont keep people from playing the first one please ;).

Edit:
Btw, the 3rd dungeon with the block puzzles is really nice, the puzzle in the room that SunGodPortal showed is really well thought. At first the dungeon seemed like it would be regular block-pushing puzzles, but this room and some others later use this thing where pushed blocks change the tile they are pushed on and its something I never had to deal with before so I really had to stop and think on alot of ocasions. Its the kind of things I was looking for from a hack called IQ test so im glad I gave it a try :thumbsup:
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: puzzledude on October 08, 2015, 07:13:21 am
Quote
got an error with snes9x and it crashed
Why oh why it works for me and not for others? Copy pasting the EDLL into
C\Windows\System32
should fix this problem.

On my comp this EDLL is being read from the EMU folder itself where the exe is (the way it should be), but if the OS "wants" it in "his" system folder with all the rest of the Dlls, you just have to put this individual file there.

Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: zhade on October 08, 2015, 07:25:35 am
Why oh why it works for me and not for others? Copy pasting the EDLL into
C\Windows\System32
should fix this problem.

On my comp this EDLL is being read from the EMU folder itself where the exe is (the way it should be), but if the OS "wants" it in "his" system folder with all the rest of the Dlls, you just have to put this individual file there.

I tried copying the dll from the snes9x folder included with the patch to windows/system32 and I still get the error  :-X I prefer zsnes anyway tho
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: puzzledude on October 08, 2015, 08:19:16 am
Quote
Btw, the 3rd dungeon with the block puzzles is really nice, the puzzle in the room that SunGodPortal showed is really well thought. At first the dungeon seemed like it would be regular block-pushing puzzles, but this room and some others later use this thing where pushed blocks change the tile they are pushed on and its something I never had to deal with before so I really had to stop and think on alot of ocasions. Its the kind of things I was looking for from a hack called IQ test so im glad I gave it a try.
Nice. The dungeon is actually called Block Village. If you can solve this entire dungeon with no help (it really gets advanced and unique later with lovable new ASM mod-blocks), then you can easily call youself a master. You are one of the players, who can really enjoy the sheer amount of intelect needed to make this dungeon/game, since some are concerned with the game's mapping.

Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Seeeeph on October 08, 2015, 09:45:49 am
 :banghead:

This thread needs to be trashed.

I've tried but my superpowers are to no avail here!  ::)
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: xnamkcor on October 08, 2015, 10:46:12 am
Why oh why it works for me and not for others? Copy pasting the EDLL into
C\Windows\System32
should fix this problem.

On my comp this EDLL is being read from the EMU folder itself where the exe is (the way it should be), but if the OS "wants" it in "his" system folder with all the rest of the Dlls, you just have to put this individual file there.

I'd rather not put random DLLs in my system folder, especially from the source is someone I trust so little.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: puzzledude on October 08, 2015, 11:52:48 am
I did not make this file, nor the emulator. This is a standard part of the standard Snes9x emulator.

When you instal DirectX, tons of such DLLs are copied into the system folder for your comp to be able to run Video games.

With Original Snes9x official release, it is required to get this file separately (which is even worse) - its the fault of the emulator authors! that you have problems with their program/emu. This is not connected with this game in any way.

I run Snes9x just fine with no problems, since I have all Video game dlls and they are also registered in the REG of the OS.

If you are unable to use an emulator, that has been a standard for SNES emulation for years (and ported to Wii, Mac, even DS), then what can I do.


PS
The DLL file can never harm anyone's computer. You should be worried about EXE files.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Disch on October 08, 2015, 12:27:02 pm
The DLL file can never harm anyone's computer. You should be worried about EXE files.

DLLs contain executable code and are just as dangerous as exe files.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: puzzledude on October 08, 2015, 12:32:59 pm
In that case users who are unable to run Snes9x, which I've been using for decade on 4 different computers and 3 operating systems (XP, Win7, Win8), and are DLL-paranoid, can use Zsnes, which doesn't use DirectX enhancement (ie those vicious DLLs).


PS
I was also kind enough to actually include the d3dx9_31 (part of DirectX) installer to be able to run Snes9x in case of problems (it is just in the Zsnes folder).
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: patuli on October 08, 2015, 02:05:53 pm
Those Dll are part of Direct X, so instead of providing the dll's and the emulator in the package,
just put a line in the readme, that say "You need to install the lattest direct X in your system"
Put the info for the required emulator, "You need the following emu only"
and a big warning at the beginning "It never run on real hardware, and I will never make it compatible with it"
Everyone make clear their points, no one is going to change it, no matter what arguments "X" or "Y" parts gives.
So this is just a pointless discussion.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: puzzledude on October 08, 2015, 03:51:19 pm
Quote
You need to install the lattest direct X in your system.
It's not that easy. When you instal DirectX, all the Dlls go to System folder and with d3d9 and similar names. This emu will rather read this vital file from the actual folder (since it will not work without it), that the emu is in, and it will know to look for (name) EDLL, which is already in there as a part of the emu.

I did this specifically so that players would not have any problems (since now the installation of DirectX should not be neccesary, since the DirectX dll is in the emu folder itself as a part of the emu), but they still do have problems (irony).
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Disch on October 08, 2015, 04:10:02 pm
DirectX installation is a bit more complex than just copying a few DLLs.  There are also registry and other system updates.  And possibly some dependency updates.

I would not recommend redistributing individual DirectX DLLs.  The end user should do it right and install the runtimes properly.  Taking random patchwork DLLs off the internet is a great way to trash the stability of your system.

I don't know if this is related to what's-his-face's EDLL.dll problem, though, as I'm pretty sure that DLL is not part of the DirectX runtime.



Not to mention that there could be different types of DirectX DLLs.  Is the one you're destributing for 32-bit or 64-bit Windows?  Win 7 or Win 8.1?  What version of DirectX?  (obviously DX9, but any patches included?)


EDIT:

Software developers typically know what runtimes need to be distributed with their program and which shouldn't be.

You shouldn't be bundling any DLLs with your version of SNES9x that didn't come bundled with SNES9x in the first place.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Vehek on October 08, 2015, 04:21:11 pm
And will run on any device, which supports Exlorom. I've just supplied Fusoya's emulators, so players don't need to search for them, since they are the most appropriate choice.
Liar. I searched for FuSoYa's emulators on my own, and your hack doesn't run in them. Well, not the file resulting from the patch under the recommended filename.

I've done a lot of other poking around, but comparing the included ZSNES with Fusoya's ZSNES in a hex editor revealed that the text "zip" was replaced by "sfc", meaning it thinks SFC files are ZIPs. That's the real reason for needing a specific extension.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: puzzledude on October 08, 2015, 04:48:39 pm
Quote
Liar. I searched for FuSoYa's emulators on my own, and your hack doesn't run in them. Well, not the file resulting from the patch under the recommended filename.

I've done a lot of other poking around, but comparing the included ZSNES with Fusoya's ZSNES in a hex editor revealed that the text "zip" was replaced by "sfc", meaning it thinks SFC files are ZIPs. That's the real reason for needing a specific extension.
You are smart Vehek, but that still IS Fusoya's emu, with 3 byte change, and I wasn't lying.
However Snes9x is RR version= official release (which should be obvious and logical since when you run the emu it says Snes9x RR), ie not by Fusoya. This version of Snes9x is based on the old 151 core, which is better in any way, than the new 153, specially regarding sound and percentage speed-ups. But I again changed some bytes= specially regarding the name of the Dll, name of cfg etc, to make it easier to use.

And the hack works in Fusoya's original Zsnes emu also (if you know how).

Do note that file extensions have nothing to do with the actual file code, which remains the same.


Maybe you are the right candidate for picking up my Glove thrown to the cart makers, for bringing the anti-cart lock down.
------------------

Quote
Not to mention that there could be different types of DirectX DLLs. Is the one you're destributing for 32-bit or 64-bit Windows? Win 7 or Win 8.1? What version of DirectX? (obviously DX9, but any patches included?)

If we put those DLLs aside for a moment.

Can an user run the official 32bit Snes9x emu?
http://www.emulator-zone.com/doc.php/snes/snes9x.html

If the answer is yes (which means DirectX properly installed and all files properly registered etc etc), then they should have no problems in running the Snes9x I provided with a simple doubleclick on the exe.

PS
I can run everything with an ease: Snes9x 147 (old one), Snes9x 151 (official), Snes9x 153 (official), Snes9x (TAS), Snes9x 153 recoded by Fusoya, Snes9x (Geiger's Debugger!), Snes9x 151 RR (which is supplied for this game - and I have no DLL problems or unstable systems).

Why can I run all that, and on 3 different comps, on XP, Win7 and Win8?

Just saying, people just need to learn how to use the computer, and learn how to run programs properly.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Disch on October 08, 2015, 05:17:34 pm
This is a super old post... but I just saw it now:

By the way, I'm thinking of bringing out the so called MIMIC emulator, my own (recoded) personal emulator, which will Not support save stating, cheating and bg layer disableing, to allow players to play, as if on real hardware (litterally!). And of course with ALL freakin mappers! (there's only 4 of them Lorom, Hirom, Exlorom, Exhirom, how difficult is that, seriously). So you can play any SNES hack and game, that ever existed, on it.

Please do.  I would love to see this.

You think you can get 100% compatibility with only 4 cartridge mapping schemes.  I love it.  Please show me.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: puzzledude on October 08, 2015, 05:55:22 pm
Quote
You think you can get 100% compatibility with only 4 cartridge mapping schemes. I love it. Please show me.
I would not make the emu from scratch obviously, I would use the Snes9x original source code as a base. Then hack into it by adding Exlorom 8MB support. All other mappers in the memmap.cpp would remain. So it would support all what the original supports, plus this. Main goal however would be to turn off save stating and cheating. But I don't think such a project would have sense, since players want to do just that - save stating (they just feel safe in a game if the emu has this function).
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: tryphon on October 08, 2015, 05:59:33 pm
In this case it's neither recoded, nor personal  :P
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: xnamkcor on October 08, 2015, 06:11:35 pm
I did not make this file, nor the emulator. This is a standard part of the standard Snes9x emulator.

When you instal DirectX, tons of such DLLs are copied into the system folder for your comp to be able to run Video games.

With Original Snes9x official release, it is required to get this file separately (which is even worse) - its the fault of the emulator authors! that you have problems with their program/emu. This is
not connected with this game in any way.

I run Snes9x just fine with no problems, since I have all Video game dlls and they are also registered in the REG of the OS.

If you are unable to use an emulator, that has been a standard for SNES emulation for years (and ported to Wii, Mac, even DS), then what can I do.


PS
The DLL file can never harm anyone's computer. You should be worried about EXE files.

The difference is is that Direct X is a trusted installer.. You, however, I do not trust. And everything you say stinks if something someone spreading malware would say to try to trick people into running it.

And I've been running SNES9x for about ten years.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: puzzledude on October 08, 2015, 06:50:04 pm
Quote
The difference is is that Direct X is a trusted installer.. You, however, I do not trust. And everything you say stinks if something someone spreading malware would say to try to trick people into running it.
What a paranoid statement. If you don't trust me, why don't you run all my files throught the Malware scanner and Antivirus... to find No malicious files whatsoever, and ultimately proove me right.

Quote
The difference is is that Direct X is a trusted installer.. You, however, I do not trust. And everything you say stinks if something someone spreading malware would say to try to trick people into running it.
Yes, that's the thank you we get for all the hard work invested into our project.

How difficult it is to use the patch only then. And use your thrustworthy programs for all the rest neccesary to play the rom.
------------------

Here's the tip:
Delete all files of my hack from your computer and go out and enjoy the sun. I hope you trust this statement. Computers and romhacks are clearly not for you.


You are probably one of those people who think that the Queen of England is a dinosaur, or the lizard from another world, conctroling us; and that everytime a tornado comes around - someone made it with the special weather machine called HARP.
------------------

The only reason for a specific format for this hack was to stop illegal cart making. Strangly that you have nothing to say about that - an actual and prooven crime - unlike your false accusations.
------------------

If the game had not been flagged for removal already, just because it doesn't run on real hadware, I would definitely flag it myself after this obscure thread.



October 08, 2015, 07:18:23 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
There you go everyone. Because of this obscure thread you have killed this beautiful work of art. I hope you are happy.

(http://www.bwass.org/bucket/23476.png)

If someone says NO to illegal cartmaking and takes measures to protect his own copyrighted work, then suddenly he is spreading malware. How beyond-dumb assumptions.


October 08, 2015, 07:20:59 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Don't worry xnamkcor. The hack will be off this site and out of the internet very soon. You Are Safe!
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: xnamkcor on October 08, 2015, 07:40:53 pm
Your hard work is appreciated. Your purposeful obfuscation is not. If it were merely a case of running it on Fus's 8mb compatible build of ZSNES, it would have been acceptable that it was a larger format ROM, but the fact that you broke it on all emulators except a program only you supplied, seems suspicious and is way too far from even pretending to call "emulation" or the modification of an existing engine to run on the same console.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: SunGodPortal on October 08, 2015, 07:48:58 pm
I'm glad I downloaded this and enjoyed playing it (while I had the chance), rather than spending all of that time whining.

R.I.P. Zelda 3 IQ Test 10/04/15 - 10/08/15

PS: Sorry if it seems a little puerile, but I just wanted to say one last thing before I let this go and move on.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Erockbrox on October 08, 2015, 08:13:06 pm
RIP block puzzles
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Chpexo on October 08, 2015, 08:14:18 pm
This thread is kind of sad; Puzzledude worked very hard on this hack and the most he gets from people is whining about emulation issues. You can tell a lot of hours went into this hack and overall the puzzles are rather minimalistic yet impressively deep.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Disch on October 08, 2015, 08:27:49 pm
The only person whining in this thread was puzzledude.

I merely stated the trade-off involved with his decision to use Exlorom, and said numerous times that I didn't care how his hack was formatted as long as he understood the trade-off.

Most of the back and forth between us was puzzledude trying to tell me how emulation works and me trying to explain to him that that's not actually how it works.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: SunGodPortal on October 08, 2015, 08:36:37 pm
Quote
I merely stated the trade-off involved with his decision to use Exlorom, and said numerous times that I didn't care how his hack was formatted as long as he understood the trade-off.

Most of the back and forth between us was puzzledude trying to tell me how emulation works and me trying to explain to him that that's not actually how it works.

Well, you actually had something to say that was insightful. A lot of the others were just bitching and moaning.

Anyway, it's a good hack and as far as I know, it will still be available at Zeldix (http://www.zeldix.net/t865-zelda3-iq-test-grand-release) if anyone is interested.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: tc on October 08, 2015, 09:13:00 pm
What a paranoid statement. If you don't trust me, why don't you run all my files throught the Malware scanner and Antivirus... to find No malicious files whatsoever, and ultimately proove me right.
Yes, that's the thank you we get for all the hard work invested into our project.

How difficult it is to use the patch only then. And use your thrustworthy programs for all the rest neccesary to play the rom.
------------------

Here's the tip:
Delete all files of my hack from your computer and go out and enjoy the sun. I hope you trust this statement. Computers and romhacks are clearly not for you.


You are probably one of those people who think that the Queen of England is a dinosaur, or the lizard from another world, conctroling us; and that everytime a tornado comes around - someone made it with the special weather machine called HARP.
------------------

The only reason for a specific format for this hack was to stop illegal cart making. Strangly that you have nothing to say about that - an actual and prooven crime - unlike your false accusations.
------------------

If the game had not been flagged for removal already, just because it doesn't run on real hadware, I would definitely flag it myself after this obscure thread.



October 08, 2015, 07:18:23 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
There you go everyone. Because of this obscure thread you have killed this beautiful work of art. I hope you are happy.

(http://www.bwass.org/bucket/23476.png)

If someone says NO to illegal cartmaking and takes measures to protect his own copyrighted work, then suddenly he is spreading malware. How beyond-dumb assumptions.


October 08, 2015, 07:20:59 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Don't worry xnamkcor. The hack will be off this site and out of the internet very soon. You Are Safe!

I don't think you're spreading malware.

In any case, stopping illegal cart making isn't the most important issue here.
It's the technical details of the method used to do so. Limits emulator compatibility too much.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: schtolteheim on October 08, 2015, 09:21:56 pm
What happened here is ridiculous, and at times even shameful.
Now the hack has been removed?!

I would have prefered to play on 3DS but it was only a minor hassle to run it on a shitty laptop I had around, even the "problematic" Snes9x worked for me.
I don't blame Puzzledude for what he did; if a product has quality I'm willing to overlook this.
I respect that he has his reasons, although he'd do well to free himself of his grudges.

I got the hack earlier today and had an enjoyable session. There is a noticeable gap in quality though.
The first dungeon is some really lame bullshit. When I played that I thought: this is it?! Is that a joke?
It being the first dungeon makes for a bad show-case; I'd even say it oughta be cut.
Puzz, I assume you'd agree that it is the weakest part of the whole game, no?

The second dungeon was also massively annoying but it was still somewhat interesting.

The third dungeon was what I've been hoping for, excellent work there. I just now obtained the hookshot after a glorious march through that maze room; I failed that maze several times because I falsely believed some of those doors/fences were red herrings(as encountered in other logic games), but in the end each element had its purpose.
At times the bulldozing of watery trails got bothersome; it was too much work and too many moves to accomplish obvious goals, which was especially painful after restarts.

One more thing about water and boxes: Did you know that boxes can be pushed along a shore when the box is in the water(and therefore presumedly should be illegal to be moved) if Link has one foot on dry land?

  ~   ~  ~  ~ ___ ~ ~      water
_________,—|_B|____
  . .. … →'-L'                land

It only works if the shore is horizontal with water in the north and land in the south.
Did you account for that, Puzz? I only noticed it very late, but this probably makes the game easier in parts, or could possibly even break some puzzles.


NOW GET THE HACK BACK ONTO THE SITE, PEOPLE!!
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Lilinda on October 08, 2015, 09:56:23 pm
What I found funny here is that tremendous garbage like "dick nazis headless mario" and other trash like that; are not only allowed here, but encouraged to be made and upload, but a normal or high quality hack like this is not allowed and flag for removal.

Hi. My name is I.S.T. I'm a moderator and I've posted this in several of the topics, but

stop complaining about those hacks

we've had this discussion a minimum of 25 times now(My best guess is 35+), and it's going nowhere. those hacks are allowed, period.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: SunGodPortal on October 08, 2015, 10:02:28 pm
Quote
Hi. My name is I.S.T. I'm a moderator and I've posted this in several of the topics, but

stop complaining about those hacks

we've had this discussion a minimum of 25 times now(My best guess is 35+), and it's going nowhere. those hacks are allowed, period.

:)
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
Post by: Lilinda on October 08, 2015, 10:04:33 pm
PS this thread's gone to shit in the day or so I've been absent.

I'm temporarily locking it while the moderator team works out what the fuck to do about shit and stuff. See y'all in a few days!