Romhacking.net

Romhacking => ROM Hacking Discussion => Topic started by: puzzledude on July 25, 2015, 03:07:50 pm

Title: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: puzzledude on July 25, 2015, 03:07:50 pm
Are you one of those retro fans who are actually capable of hacking and modifying games for old consoles, or do you want to become one? Why bother at all!

First of all, no matter how good your game is, someone will most certainly not like it.

If you make the game too difficult, someone will most certainly not like, but! if you make the game too easy or normally difficult someone will most certainly again not like it, claiming it is too easy.

You will even come across such paradoxes, that a fairly easy game will be regarded as too difficult by some and yet too easy by others. So to conclude: no matter the actual difficulty, you'll always get the difficulty of your game wrong.

If your designed levels are based on exploration, someone will certainly call your game boring due to so called Backtracking. If you then decide to change that onto the better, don't bother, your edited levels, which will remove the backtracking, will certainly be called too Linear, which is apparently again no good. So to conclude: no matter the actual exploration factor, you'll always get the level design wrong.

If you decide to change the gfx, someone will certainly not like it, since they will claim the old gfx was better and the new one is too radical, custom made and thus no good. If you however decide to keep the original gfx, your game will be called "vanilla". So to conclude: no matter what you do with the gfx, you'll always get it wrong.

If you decide to implement special new music engine called MSU-1, don't bother, someone will definitely like SPC better. If you however keep the SPC, they will certainly tell you, that you are out of date, not switching to MSU.

If you mannaged to actually finish the project, you will come across painful testing. You will test and test and test, but why do you bother, you will certainly miss a bug or two, and when a player will come across such a minor problem, he will call your game (which you painfully tested for bugs) bugged. So why bother: no matter how much debugging you'll make, someone will still call your game bugged.

No matter how much you will check the grammar of the texts in the game, you'll surely miss out something. So why bother: no matter how much you will try to find spelling mistakes, someone will most surely find some and call your game a spelling horror and then add: this is common in those "custom made fake games".

If you designed your game to be used with save states, someone will call this a poor design, if you designed your game to be used without save states, they will use them anyway, making your game too easy - again. So why do you bother?

No matter how much TXT info files you will write, someone will surely patch your game to the false original rom, claiming you did a poor job with your game, since it doesn't load.

No matter how much TXT info files you will write, someone will surely patch your game to the false original rom, claiming you did a poor job with your game, since the game crashes in the middle of the playing. If you tell them to obviously check the CRC before playing they will tell you, that they've never heard of such a thing. So why do you bother?

If you tell them, to patch to a non headered rom, someone will definitely patch to a headered rom and claim your game to be bugged or not working, not knowing what went wrong.


If someone by somesort of a miracle likes your game, they will surely abuse it, by putting it onto the cart and sell it for money, making you look like the bad guy, who promotes piracy, since you are making "hacked" games. Your txt warning of "fair use" and "personal use" and "no rom or cart distribution" would be like an ant yelling at the supernova.

No matter how "just" your intentions are, in the eyes of the authors who made the original game, you are a thief, who just abused their intellectual property. In their eyes you are a pest, who is responsible for illegal cart distribution, since you made it happen. You can also be regarded as the person, who gave their game a bad name, since your game can never match the original one. In their eyes you are thus producing illegal derivated work of a poor/false quality and trying to benefit of it. So why do you bother?


That's what you get because you have programing/level designing talent/non talent and simply like an old game. Maybe being smart is not a good thing at all.

Make your life complete and quit romhacking to save your self a lot of trouble. Don't bother.
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: SunGodPortal on July 25, 2015, 04:06:10 pm
You can't please everybody.

When I first decided to dive into this stuff a few months back I was intending to go the route of taking an old game and turning it into a new game. The farther I got into it, the less rewarding it seemed like it was going to be. It didn't quite feel like it was worth the trouble. Especially since the only editor for the game I eventually settled on was horribly bugged due to being abandoned and entombed (no shared source code). I'd still like to make a Zelda III hack, but I think I'm much better off doing translation work like I have just begun doing. It's more rewarding in that people will get to play a game in english when they never would have the chance to otherwise. With the other kind of ROM hack there's too much of what you have described above. At least with a translation I personally feel it's much easier to say "If you think you can do better, let's see you do it". With a regular ROM hack much of the time a single person could be expected to be good at everything: graphics, music, level design, script. I could be wrong, but it seems like when more than one person works on the regular kind of ROM hack it's because someone started it and didn't or couldn't finish it.

Anyway, as for the Zelda III hacks you've been involved with, for me there was too much of "here's what the player would expect, so let's find the most extreme opposite of that, which is so cryptic that they may never figure it out on their own". Or in some cases, a variant that was just too clever for it's own good.

And as for the back-tracking, the games you've been involved with require this on a much larger scale than the original game. Usually when you had to do much searching in the original game it was typically in a set of rooms, rather than having to run around half of a dungeon and some times be required to go all the way back to the beginning because you forgot to go in ONE room off to the side near the entrance of the dungeon. Or having to do this same sort of thing just as part of the dungeon flow. "I found something, now I can go all the way back across the dungeon and get this, then I can go all the way back and do this". I wouldn't call it bad design, but it's probably just not what people are expecting given how the original game functioned. Most people probably just expected something different and were therefore dissapointed when they didn't get that.

In the end, if you want to make games that people will enjoy and may be less likely to judge so harshly, just make an original game that isn't based off of an existing game. When you hack some old game that people played when they were kids they probably have expectations that are too high to meet or other similar problems that relate to their precious childhood memories.

NOW, having said that... I'm still eagerly awaiting your IQ hack. I don't mind an extreme challenge if I suspect that's what I'm getting into in the first place. :) Also, I don't know what to expect from Gates of Time, but I would like to see that one emerge as well.

EDIT: It may be worth mentioning that my opinions on your hacks may be skewed by the fact that I never finished one. Bruce Campbell vs Ganon was the only Z3 hack I enjoyed enough to to play at any length. Funny thing is I think it almost plays more like a Castlevania game. That may be why I liked it more, as I am a Castlevania junky.
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: justin3009 on July 25, 2015, 04:10:41 pm
What SunGodPortal said essentially to an extent.

I do ROM hacking because I find it enjoyable.  I find more joy in expanding on something that's already created and modifying it then creating something from scratch, which some may find a little wrong but nyeh.

Not everyone will be happy with your work, not everyone will dislike your work.  People will judge based on what they know from the original game regardless if it's good or bad.

I'd still do ROM hacking regardless what people say because I find it a great deal of fun and it's an extremely nice stress reliever and something creative, fun and enjoyable in spare time.  I'd never give it up no matter what people do or say.
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: Isao Kronos on July 25, 2015, 04:14:53 pm
i wish i could replace the OP with an autoplay of baby mario crying
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: SunGodPortal on July 25, 2015, 04:35:21 pm
I don't blame him for needing to vent. Zelda III hacking is a nightmare because of Hyrule Magic. For as much trouble as it is, I'm sure he wishes there was a better pay off. If a good number of people didn't like his gameplay style I assume that would be much easier to take if the process of making hacks for this game weren't so torturous. You pretty much have to be an extreme sadomasochist to finish one.
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: puzzledude on July 25, 2015, 05:07:02 pm
Quote
i wish i could replace the OP with an autoplay of baby mario crying
Then you misunderstood. This was a general oppinion and with the "you" above I wasn't directly talking of myself, but more of all the future modders. So essentially this is a warning for others and a preface what to expect, deliberately drawn into (false) escalated pessimism, which can actually be viewed as sarcasm, but with lots of "truth" in it.

Quote
NOW, having said that... I'm still eagerly awaiting your IQ hack. I don't mind an extreme challenge if I suspect that's what I'm getting into in the first place. Also, I don't know what to expect from Gates of Time, but I would like to see that one emerge as well.
I will finish those projects eventually regardless.
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: mrrichard999 on July 25, 2015, 05:40:53 pm
For what its worth I am a fan of what you have done and appreciate the hacks you have made & also there are probably thousands who do as well that dpnt frequent these message boards. If you truly like doing what you are doing don't stop doing it.  :beer:
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: STARWIN on July 25, 2015, 08:08:22 pm
This is valid only for one obsessed with receiving positive feedback. I don't think that motivates many romhackers, especially not beginning ones. Most people simply have a vision of something that doesn't exist and they want to make it real.
Title: .
Post by: Chpexo on July 25, 2015, 08:40:06 pm
.
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: FAST6191 on July 25, 2015, 08:43:00 pm
This is valid only for one obsessed with receiving positive feedback. I don't think that motivates many romhackers, especially not beginning ones.

Assuming that is not some not quite double negative type arrangement then I might have to argue otherwise. I am sure we have both seen the "I just started and want to translate [insert RPG equivalent of War and Peace]" thing several times at this point, upon probing them* a bit I do quite often find it is the allure of ROM hacker grade money and loose ladies that informs much of the desire. On the flip side I suppose the amount of those that then go on to actually learn hacking and establish themselves in some way is neither a high percentage nor a high number so eh.

*in this case it is more for the newer/active consoles when I see such things.

To get back towards the topic, not that I really left, I will join the "I hack for me" echo.
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: DougRPG on July 25, 2015, 10:27:13 pm
The puzzledude's argument is only valid if you do romhacking for other people to enjoy.
If you do for yourself, as a way to learn new stuff and to have fun, then all these arguments are irrelevant.
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: SunGodPortal on July 25, 2015, 11:27:52 pm
It's not a seminar so much as it is a treatise. :P

Either way, Puzz is a brilliant hacker (my time on Zeldix makes me certain of this) and I hope he doesn't make the mistake of leaving an open sore like this in the forums again. We all have these moments and they are better left kept to ourselves.
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: Grimlock on July 26, 2015, 02:16:46 am
My main motivation for doing what I do is simply the enjoyment I get out of expressing my creativity.  Once I achieve a certain proficiency with the "tools" that are required for a particular creative outlet I find it to be very immersive.  I also enjoy working out the puzzle and design aspect of getting things to work properly.  I'm not overly concerned about the negative responses that are sure to come from a percentage of people that experience my work.  However I am delighted to hear from others that enjoy and appreciate my work.

Puzzledude, I would advise you to disregard all of the potential haters out there.  Like you pointed out, there will always be people who disagree with your choices.  Expecting 100% satisfaction is unrealistic, (basically 100% doesn't exist).  If you choose to measure your success based on feedback then I would recommend you not base it on a finite point such as 100% but instead view success based on a range.  Above 80% positive feedback  for example .

Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: Seihen on July 26, 2015, 08:59:54 am
I hate to speak where I really don't understand, especially among the incredibly more talented members of this board... but perhaps this would be better under the General discussion board? Labeling a thread as a "seminar" in the "Rom Hacking Discussion" board and having a wall of text of negativity just doesn't seem like the proper message for new people coming in to learn about rom hacking.

All of the points above are worth discussing and should be discussed, especially considering the rotten treatment people sometimes get after pouring their lives into these projects, but this just seems so utterly negative.

Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: chillyfeez on July 26, 2015, 09:12:53 am
Important things to keep in mind:
1) this is the internet, where the haters go to hate
2) These are video games, and this is RHDN. It's like Gold's Gym for nerds. The people who just go to the gym just to work out do so and leave to get back to the rest of their lives. You don't pay attention to these people, because they do not demand your attention, but they are the majority. But there are also the lunks, for whom the gym gives life meaning. They are the people you notice when you walk in, and they are the people who make the gym an annoying place to go.

You should not expect a high amount of praise for your work, nor should you judge the quality of your work by the amount of praise you get. Even 80% is optimistic. If you got into this as a way to get praise, then you may have gotten into the wrong thing, regardless of how good you may be at it. If you enjoy the doing but are too put off by the negative commentary, then maybe your problem is the venue. If RHDN is Gold's Gym, go find your Curves. I'm a FFIV hacker, so my Curves is slickproductions.org. I've never looked, but I'm sure there are no less than twenty such sites for Zelda III, as it is generally a more popular game. If no such site exists, then create one
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: Grimlock on July 26, 2015, 02:53:09 pm
Even 80% is optimistic.

I agree, any expectations (regarding feedback) really places a person on the wrong path.  The personal reward should really come from the work itself. 
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: standigz on July 26, 2015, 03:35:45 pm
Have you thought about not trying to please anybody but yourself. You don't owe anybody anything. If they don't appreciate free hacks than that's their problem. Don't take the complaints to heart.
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: Seeeeph on July 27, 2015, 12:17:15 am
.
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: SunGodPortal on July 27, 2015, 12:37:06 am
Quote
What does that makes me if I finish two :D

Superhuman :D
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: Seihen on July 27, 2015, 12:37:33 am
What does that makes me if I finish two :D

A masochist.
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: SunGodPortal on July 27, 2015, 12:53:46 am
Quote
What does that makes me if I finish two :D

Hero. :beer:
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: BlackDog61 on July 27, 2015, 07:08:48 pm
The personal reward should really come from the work itself.
Yep.
Or from the self at work.
Whichever of the two works for you.
The self-satisfaction of knowledge and understanding, or adrenaline that comes with accomplishment.
Anything goes!

I still think this thread is a little too much biased twards the "warning" side of welcoming newcomers.
Newcomers, please come and enjoy the pains and joys of the art!
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: M-Tee on July 27, 2015, 08:01:37 pm
I'm pretty opposed to telling people why they should do what they like to do.

That said, I also agree wholeheartedly with Seihen that this wall of text venting personal emotions would be better off without the passively aggressive and deceptive thread title.
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: optomon on July 27, 2015, 08:09:27 pm
I started rom hacking just so I could nerdily change around levels in games, to do what wasn't able to do all those years growing up, but always dreamed if doing. After a few years it evolved into the foremost vehicle in which I could expound upon my creative and technical abilities. It has been more fulfilling than any work I've done, including education and career stuff, and yet, 90% of my work has never been (or has yet to be) part of a finished project even after 12 years. I learned a long to stop caring about that, or what other people think. It is integral to who I am, and I will get there someday.

Working in a niche hobby that is not for everyone, it is far more important to try and please a tight group of people a lot than to please as many as possible. I was put down my whole life for being a nerd who played around in his mind too much, for having my own agenda and not conforming to what everyone else did, for being a failure in school, for being socially and physically awkward. A person with a fleeting opinion on the internet is the last thing that is going to make me feel discouraged.
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: SunGodPortal on July 27, 2015, 08:10:22 pm
Honestly, I hate this thread. It's embarrassing and shouldn't exist.
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: Jorpho on July 27, 2015, 08:27:16 pm
Eh, back in the day it seemed like every other day someone was flamboyantly declaring "IMMA QUITTIN DA SCENE!".

Quote
1204: What are the benefits of "The Scene"?

 Well, if you're into lame cartoon pornography, jokes about sexual
 orientation and the occasional reach around, then "The Scene" is for
 you. If you actually hope to make progress in your ROM hacking, then
 there are no benefits.

 1206: How do I quit the scene?
 
 First, get frustrated with some minor thing. Then post on all the
 messageboards about how you're quitting "The Scene". Wait for a day
 or two and then start working on your projects again, after a week or
 so, start posting on the messageboards again. This might not make
 sense now, but it will after you've been around "The Scene" for a few
 weeks.
InVerse, 2003 (http://www.romhacking.net/documents/37/)
Title: .
Post by: Chpexo on July 27, 2015, 11:23:55 pm
.
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: stuffgnome on July 28, 2015, 10:06:32 am
Honestly, I hate this thread. It's embarrassing and shouldn't exist.

+1
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: dACE on July 28, 2015, 11:50:19 am
The very mature admins also help tremendously to shape the relatively mature community as a whole as well.

I don't find the admins all that great. Issuing warnings and slapping you with predefined (and blown out of proportions) accusations - when all you do is try to be helpful. That's my experience anyway.

/dACE
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: KaioShin on July 28, 2015, 12:13:44 pm
I don't find the admins all that great. Issuing warnings and slapping you with predefined (and blown out of proportions) accusations - when all you do is try to be helpful. That's my experience anyway.

/dACE

Don't blame the admins, blame the moderators, who are completely seperate :P
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: Quick Curly on July 29, 2015, 08:20:43 am
It is understandable why the double standards explored in this topic are upsetting and discouraging.

Whether or not one works on and creates ROM hacking projects for themselves first, which is personally how I've always felt it should be, because ROM hacking grants us the opportunity to bring new life to our favourite childhood games and create even more great memories, it's still discouraging to put in all our time and effort - usually multiple years worth - to create a new experience, only for someone who likely wouldn't even know how to make a ROM hack to come along and only focus on what they didn't like about it, and make it seem like we didn't put any time and effort into it at all, to make the game that "they wanted".

True, you can't please everyone, but I do personally feel that people could generally be less judgmental.

Newbies are generally treated like they don't belong anymore, which probably discourages most from even posting at all after registering new accounts which will likely never even be used. Although, it goes both ways, because generally, new people hope for the simplest and swiftest solution, won't bother to attempt to do enough research on their own first, and will either ask for too much, not know how to make a "smart" post to elicit a positive and progressive response from more experienced users, and/or will not be as appreciative as they should be once they receive any potentially helpful information. It can be difficult to understand many of the processes involved, but effort is necessary and required in order to make any sort of progress. Most of us who have actually been around long enough to complete some projects are of a breed and mindset where we have the passion to bring our own visions to life that we are driven by what we believe we can achieve through dedication over time. Anymore, people seem to only show up because it's something to distract them for an afternoon until their attention redirects them to someone else, which means they will never put in the time themselves to become familiar with our passion, to fully understand and appreciate what we go through, and realize for themselves that their opinions are perhaps a bit too harsh or misguided in some situations (read, some).

It seemed like there were more newer users who made attempts to create ROM hacks years ago, at least, specifically at Board 2 in 2009, when it seemed like a pack of people interested in hacking SMB3 were considerably active. Even though they were new, and mistakes were made left and right, generally the positive was the main focus in being able to hopefully progress to more completed states for those projects. Anymore, if people see fewer actual releases, and from those releases, "reviews" that focus more on personal tastes in directing projects seemingly beyond the intended vision of the actual author(s), likely what seems to already be happening compared to years ago when it seemed like all the more familiar names in the ROM hacking community were still around, as opposed to now, will continue to happen even more so with fewer new people bothering to even try because it'll seem like an impossible task to please the continuously growing expectations of the vast, diverse opinions of the overall public.

However, for those truly passionate about their craft, they shouldn't be compromised by any potential negativity that comes their way, and while there will generally always be someone who will seemingly, absolutely refuse to be pleased no matter what, there should generally always be the folks out there who recognize and appreciate one's hard work and efforts, and those are the people who deserve to enjoy the fruits of our labour, in addition to first and foremost, ourselves.
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: Erockbrox on July 30, 2015, 04:27:59 am
I like rom hacking old game for nostalgic reasons. Many of the games that I hack are games I grew up with when I was young. When I was a kid having the ability to create my own mario levels or super mario kart tracks or zelda adventure would have been a dream to me. Back then I didn't even own a computer nor had the internet.

Now there are tons of resources and tools available online to make your own versions out of these old school games. I see rom hacking as a privileged to breath new life into these classics!

Plus its also fun to see what you can do while working within limitations of the original game and to see how the original game developers solved many of the problems of making a game back in the 90's when all the information and data had to fit on a limited space on a cartridge.

I also have known puzzledude for many years and can say that he is a top expert on Zelda 3 rom hacking for sure. Its just that sometimes when we have invested years of our lives into our hobbies, sometimes we can reach low points and get depressed. After all it can be a lonely hobby at times.
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: MercuryPenny on July 30, 2015, 04:01:45 pm
After all it can be a lonely hobby at times.
It really shouldn't be. ROM hacking is so isolationist and it has bothered me for about a year now how it's all 'learn ASM and do it yourself' or 'learn to port music and do it yourself' or 'design your own levels'. Not everyone can be a jack of all trades - in fact, such people are incredibly rare.

People like puzzledude wouldn't get so frustrated if they just got the well-deserved help they need.
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: tryphon on July 30, 2015, 04:09:34 pm
And what do you propose ?
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: SunGodPortal on July 30, 2015, 05:06:23 pm
Quote
People like puzzledude wouldn't get so frustrated if they just got the well-deserved help they need.

heh Puzzledude can do it all. Only thing I haven't seen him do was sprite editing.
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: puzzledude on July 31, 2015, 03:54:23 pm
Quote
Only thing I haven't seen him do was sprite editing.
Yes, I can do that as well. Pretty much similar as all gfx editing (objects etc etc). The only thing I can not do is ASM, since this is somewhat specific, but Conn helped everyone here and made it happen, so basically we can make some fine mods.

Just for the record I'm not quiting anything, at least not until I finish what was planed (and that's quite a lot and will probably need some more years to finish).

The thread was more a satiric point of view on the whole thing, with a pessimistic note, due to the fact that romhacking is a so called grey area in general. So at least this part is accurate, the other parts of the message can easily be disregarded, if (as some of you pointed out) we ignore the critics, which we definitely should.
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: Quick Curly on August 01, 2015, 01:30:27 pm
It really shouldn't be. ROM hacking is so isolationist and it has bothered me for about a year now how it's all 'learn ASM and do it yourself' or 'learn to port music and do it yourself' or 'design your own levels'. Not everyone can be a jack of all trades - in fact, such people are incredibly rare.
There are the people out there who enjoy being able to help other projects progress forward. :)
It comes down to if/when people are willing, available, and/or if the project in question is something that they are more familiar with than not, as that definitely helps with the time it takes to jump in with possible advice and/or solutions.
There's also always the chance that people who share common interests can discover one another and team up.
Sometimes it's lonely, but not always. Hang in there. :)

The thread was more a satiric point of view on the whole thing, with a pessimistic note, due to the fact that romhacking is a so called grey area in general. So at least this part is accurate, the other parts of the message can easily be disregarded, if (as some of you pointed out) we ignore the critics, which we definitely should.
From my own experiences, I've shared your feelings at different points in time, though I do my best to get past them, because there have always been those who have been supportive of me too, as I am of them.
You've accomplished a lot, you have the skills and patience to see your visions through, and no one can take that away.
Some "critics", if they can really all be considered that, just don't seem to have anything better to do than focus on the negative. It's unfortunate.
Everyone has their own vision, and if someone really wants to take the time to express theirs, and perhaps even rant, then they should be able to take the time and put forth the effort to make their own vision come to life, and not try to forcefully change the vision of someone else, especially if it means putting it down.
There are definitely ideas and suggestions that creators can agree with, but from the other side, it has to be understood that just because a project doesn't please a recipient entirely, it doesn't mean that a creator has to take the suggestions either, again, especially depending on how they're presented (whether attempting to be helpful, or being forceful and not caring enough to at least be considerate of both sides, including the consideration that someone working on a project is taking their time to make something for everyone else to hopefully enjoy, even though, yes, it's their personal choice to do so).
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: Erockbrox on August 01, 2015, 08:36:07 pm
My experience is that sometimes critics can actually be beneficial. While its true that some people will bash others work it is also true that if you listen to feedback from critics then you can hopefully make your game even better.

Just because you make a game doesn't automatically make the game good. If you get lots of negative critics odds are that its probably not hate, but that sad truth that the game just wasn't as good as the author may have thought.

The best thing to do though is to just try again and again until you succeed. I've seen artists who have created lots of art which wasn't well received and then finally one day they just come up with something and its a big hit! So yes, making games like other forms of art is challenging. You really never know how people will react to it. The main idea though is that if its your passion then don't let the negative criticisms negativity affect you. Use feedback as a way to guide you to become better!!!

Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: magictrufflez on August 02, 2015, 04:35:22 pm
As someone who's only skill around here is offering constructive criticism/feedback, I like to think I contribute to the positive atmosphere on this site.

Maybe I've just been fortunate to not run into really obnoxious forum members, however.  I know I've seen some real D-Bag posts on other forums before, and I'm sure there are plenty buried around here too.  I'm sure I could work something in about doing a #2 where you eat, but I'm a bit tired right now.
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: Dr. Mario on August 03, 2015, 01:14:46 am
I mean criticism is always going to happen in any kind of art form. You don't think someone looked at the Mona Lisa and was like "meh"?

I did like three rom hacks. Legend of Zelda: Curse from the Outskirts was downright horrible. Castlevania: Cadence of Agony was mediocre at best, and Castlevania: Chorus of Mysteries might be the only one I can actually say I'm somewhat proud of.

There was an article published in a magazine about Curse.
Some guy this weekend at an Arcade Con literally got a picture with me and asked for my autograph because I made Cadence.
Reviews of Chorus ranged from "This should be the true Castlevania II" to stuff that was downright scathing. There's a review on this very site that says that Optomon and I shouldn't have even bothered.

Point being, people are never going to feel the same way about your work that you do. There's really nothing you can do about it except expect it to happen.
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: mrrichard999 on August 03, 2015, 02:25:24 am
I mean criticism is always going to happen in any kind of art form. You don't think someone looked at the Mona Lisa and was like "meh"?

I did like three rom hacks. Legend of Zelda: Curse from the Outskirts was downright horrible. Castlevania: Cadence of Agony was mediocre at best, and Castlevania: Chorus of Mysteries might be the only one I can actually say I'm somewhat proud of.

There was an article published in a magazine about Curse.
Some guy this weekend at an Arcade Con literally got a picture with me and asked for my autograph because I made Cadence.
Reviews of Chorus ranged from "This should be the true Castlevania II" to stuff that was downright scathing. There's a review on this very site that says that Optomon and I shouldn't have even bothered.

Point being, people are never going to feel the same way about your work that you do. There's really nothing you can do about it except expect it to happen.

Its funny how the people who usually post negative stuff like that are the ones who don't even really do any ROM hacking or comprehend the amount of work that goes into something that big and difficult of a project. For the record I think all 3 of those hacks are great pieces of work! I hope you guys make more stuff in the future.  :beer:
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: SunGodPortal on August 07, 2015, 06:51:16 pm
Just the other day I decided to give Puzzledude's Quest (http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/703/ (http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/703/)) another chance. Not long into it, it was obvious that I was not going to be able to deal with the overworld. So I placed the flute in one of the first few chests and took out the overworld mazes (they just bogged the game down). To do so without destroying the game I had to use what I believe was your empty overworld items string in hex.

I have to say, by negating the overworlds I wasn't really missing anything. Your hack mainly seems to focus on the dungeons. There's a bit too much emphasis on the blue/orange blocks but otherwise it's been quite fun and challenging. Although in some cases I would handle it a little differently, I do believe that your use of the star-looking floor tile to indicate that the room puzzle has an unorthodox solution is quite brilliant. Something about solving those little riddles is just SO satisfying. Like the feeling of figuring out the game's original puzzles back in the day. At first I though that adding a bunch of spikes to the floor of the boss rooms was stupid/cheap but then I realized that this required you to devise totally different strategies. For example: Blind. I couldn't go anywhere but two spots near the bottom of the room. I had to wait for the boss to move near the bottom (all the while dodging fireballs) and then when the time was right, I activate the cape and then just start swinging wildly. Rinse and repeat until all three heads of the boss have been beaten. Completely different than playing the boss originally.

I thought I remembered more back-tracking (there was some) but I guess I was getting some of these dungeons confused with PW and GoW. At this point I would again like the point out how painful the overworld mazes are. If I didn't know how to hack and mod this game to remove them that would be it. I wouldn't be able to get passed them because they make it impossible to move across certain areas without having to first walk across every single tile on the screen. In the original game you could cross certain areas in a matter of seconds, now you can't cross any screen without having to waste a minute our two in an annoying maze.

Although I had serious problems with the overworld and in some ways think that this hack feels unfinished (the lack of changes outside of dungeons other than mazes, the seeming lack of a dark overworld) I now believe that this is a very cool hack and it makes me wish that there were more hacks like it and BCvsG.

Good job PD, just not with the overworlds. :P
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: Seeeeph on August 08, 2015, 12:21:10 am
.
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: M-Tee on August 08, 2015, 12:34:05 am
Rarely is criticism actually given in a constructive way. Even more rarely does the recipient actually listen to criticism without getting defensive.

If you can't take criticism, don't publish work. It's very simple.

Besides, all people gain from praise is stagnation.
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: SunGodPortal on August 08, 2015, 12:36:41 am
Quote
Sadly I can't send it into oblivion with my none existant angelic admin powers here! :angel:

heh Yeah here you're just a commoner.

Quote
You're god damn right!

It's funny how satisfying it is though to overcome Hyrule Magic's obstacles/freak-outs. As much as I hate this program it has become a sort of love-hate scenario and I feel a strange sort of pride knowing that I am learning to master a program that many others find unuseable. A month or two ago I kind of ran out of steam and wondered if I was going to continue working on Zelda III or not in any form. Next thing you know I'm right back at it. :D

Quote
Besides, all people gain from praise is stagnation.

Depends. In some cases a bit of praise can give you the strength you need to finish something very difficult and continue on far beyond where you previously thought was the end of the road.
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: Erockbrox on August 08, 2015, 01:55:47 am
Quote
If I fail, I still call it quits because the game will have been made for my own joy...

This is why I am part of your project. If you do fail then I will be there to catch the errors and fix them so that you won't fail. We cannot fail in this game. PERIOD! I will not allow failure. This game is going to be a FU*KING hit so help me God.
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: M-Tee on August 08, 2015, 02:05:52 am
It's a tad of an overstatement, true. But endless flurries of blind praise really do hinder progress, and anyone that's pursued or taught higher education in any creative field will likely agree that breaking students of that habit and training them to both give and receive criticism is one of the largest hurdles an instructor must face.

Likewise, sitting in on a mid-level critique is a far better way to assess the quality of an a program than by viewing the output of its students.

The point is that criticism, along with learning how to handle even the worst of it, is essential for progress.

Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: Disch on August 08, 2015, 02:06:32 am
I'm chiming in very late.  I didn't read any replies in this thread -- and I barely skimmed the OP's post.  But it sounds like he was complaining about how it's impossible to win when creating a hack.

I just want to say -- if you are making a hack (or really any art) for anyone other than yourself, you are doing it wrong.  Make stuff you want to make and if you want to share it with others... great.  And if people like it and sing your praises, even better!

But don't make something with the ultimate goal of winning praise.  You'll hate the process, and you'll just feel worthless and disappointed if the praise doesn't come.
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: Seeeeph on August 08, 2015, 02:08:27 am
.
Title: Re: Puzzledude's seminar on romhacking
Post by: Erockbrox on August 08, 2015, 09:39:09 pm
It's a tad of an overstatement, true. But endless flurries of blind praise really do hinder progress, and anyone that's pursued or taught higher education in any creative field will likely agree that breaking students of that habit and training them to both give and receive criticism is one of the largest hurdles an instructor must face.

Likewise, sitting in on a mid-level critique is a far better way to assess the quality of an a program than by viewing the output of its students.

The point is that criticism, along with learning how to handle even the worst of it, is essential for progress.

I think you give praise when praise is due. If something is just freaking awesome then its okay to say that. On the other hand, if something stinks then tell them it sticks, but also tell them how to make it better so it doesnt stink. Lastly, if you say something is good out of kindness when it really stinks then you are doing the artist/author a disservice because you giving them a false impression that their work is good when it really isnt.

I personally would like to say that if you do give positive praise for some things then it might excite the person and really give the person hope and then they strive to become super super great at what they do.

Its actually kind of interesting. Sometimes positive praise can make a person better or negative praise too, but both of these can also make a person worse. It just depends on the type of person and their personality.