Romhacking.net

Romhacking => ROM Hacking Discussion => Topic started by: Maeson on April 15, 2015, 07:30:42 am

Title: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on April 15, 2015, 07:30:42 am
Hi, I want to share a "little" thing that I made for personal use, but decided to see if other people could enjoy it... I'm a little nervous about sharing this, I don't know what reactions it will create.

Some days ago I asked in the "Hack Ideas" thread about how hard could be to edit the formulas for magic attacks on this game, and I didn't receive any answer, so I looked for a bit and found a page on Data Crystal with a little of information about it, so I started to tinker with the game to see If I could understand it.

I must say that I'm a total newcomer here, I did very small edits outside of graphical changes, (And even then I didn't release them because I doubt anyone wants to play a version of Super Mario Bros 2 with Youtube Poop characters from so many years ago that I did as a joke, or some palette changes in Pool of Radiance, lol).

Anyway, after some time seeing what each byte meant, I had made a patch that improves Black, White, and Geomancer Magic while nerfing the overpowered the High Summon spells. And then is when I thought:

What if I can make my "own version" of the game?

And that's what this "project" is: A series of patches that changes a lot of things in this game, from the Magic, to the classes stats, to equipment "overhaul", some convenience patches like one that rearranges commands to make them more comfortable, and such.

I even restored the dummied Dream Harp! Kind of funny to see a weapon with 0 in all it's stats, it throw me off guard at first.

My intention is to make more classes fun to play, and add variety to them in the equipment they can use so they can fill different roles.

For example, Geomancer has better stats, his Terrain is more powerful, he has more defensive gear to wear, some more weapons to equip, and his bells can be used to cause status effects, the Bard, which , besides better stats and equipment, he can use his harps to help the party or send enemies to sleep, or the Ranger now can attack from the back row with his bow and new boomerangs, or go close and use daggers and some spears if it's needed to, while having a small boost to his Spirit to cast better White Magic.

It took a bit (Well, maybe a bit more than that...) of patience, there was no info about this game besides of what Data Crystal had, so I needed to write everything I learned, and hex editing everything by hand. I don't know Assembly or that much about hacking, really. I only used Windhex for this.

Removed Link, it was too old and I'll upload it to RHDN soon.
.
Title: Re: Maeson's Final Fantasy III (Famicom)
Post by: STARWIN on April 15, 2015, 09:00:54 am
It's a nice effort for someone who started from almost nothing. I assume you had enough info to locate some magic/item/character property tables and then experimented with the unknown/"unknown" bytes in them?

Editing tables like these is what modders typically do, either directly at offsets or with some tool. I'm not so interested in gameplay changes for this particular game though; I play it more for music and feeling than for pure gameplay. But sometimes opening a debugger is fun regardless of the purpose. So is there something you want to mod but don't know how?
Title: Re: Maeson's Final Fantasy III (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on April 15, 2015, 09:57:07 am
Thank you for those words. Yeah, a good part of this was trial and error (like, to know how to find a certain shop, I needed to check every value for items until I got the list of items in that shop in the right order, and the look for it, for example), checking bytes to see what each one does. All there is to find on the web (Or at least, that I was able to find) is this:

http://datacrystal.romhacking.net/wiki/Final_Fantasy_III:ROM_map

Which is nice to start, much better than nothing, and while it has some little things wrong, it was so helpful, but of course this means you have to do your own list of each item with it's properties, and it's very interesting to see that they created a ton of bonuses for equipment that they never used, not even close.

I found that some weapons have secondary effects, that not even one guide knows about, or even spells that have weird elements when we thought they had others. It's kind of fascinating.

It's kind of funny to see so much work done here to not be used, or even known. There are no tools for FF3j, except maybe an enemy editor, that sadly seems to be glitched, it gives some enemies HP from what seems to be other enemies HP (For example, the boss Garuda gets more than 20.000 HP even if you don't touch anything), so I only had hex editors and offsets to help me.

I personally can't get enough of this game, that's why I started this. FF1 is great, but that game has a lot of atention already, and this one has a different feeling.

If there is something I would like to mod is, besides the Black Magic/Terrain damage formula , is the Steal data. The game has a Thief, but there's almost nothing worth of stealing.

The thing is that I can't understand how it works, I know each enemy has it's own byte for a group of items, and while I know which group has which items, I can't understand how those groups of items work, or even locate where they start exactly.

Curiously enough, there are groups like "Infite Elixirs" coded in. But then you give "Potion" to half of the enemies.
Title: Re: Maeson's Final Fantasy III (Famicom)
Post by: Vanya on April 15, 2015, 04:26:12 pm
Don't be afraid to share your work. Even if most people aren't interested in it, some will. Plus experimenting with the data in the games can lead to new discoveries that could increase interest in the game. As long as you had fun doing it that's really all that matters.
Title: Re: Maeson's Final Fantasy III (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on April 15, 2015, 04:59:30 pm
Thank you. Honestly, sharing things I make is not my strong suit, i'm always afraid of it not being that great.

And I know there isn't going to be that much interest, if people where interested in FF3j, there should have been any kind of hack similar to this already (Although that's maybe because there was no much info to go with) like the tons of hacks for FF I or IV, but after all, this started as a personal thing made for my own use, if it ends up making someone else's day the better!

What I don't know if it's worthy of being uploaded to Romhacking.net. I guess I'll wait to see what happens.

I had fun looking into this, and i've learned a bit of how things work or what I could do to make the classes more fun to play with the limits I have, and I took a lot of notes in case someone tries to do something with this game.
Title: Re: Maeson's Final Fantasy III (Famicom)
Post by: STARWIN on April 17, 2015, 08:13:10 pm
If there is something I would like to mod is, besides the Black Magic/Terrain damage formula , is the Steal data. The game has a Thief, but there's almost nothing worth of stealing.

The thing is that I can't understand how it works, I know each enemy has it's own byte for a group of items, and while I know which group has which items, I can't understand how those groups of items work, or even locate where they start exactly.

Curiously enough, there are groups like "Infite Elixirs" coded in. But then you give "Potion" to half of the enemies.

I tried to find the magic damage formula briefly, but I couldn't see INT being used for anything by the game, at least in the simplest way. I'll look at it more later. What is the offset for the spell power of "fire" spell?

Steal items I didn't look yet, but from the datacrystal page I wonder if drops and steals are the same. So changing one would change the other as well? That wouldn't affect the thief class only, but all drops then.
Title: Re: Maeson's Final Fantasy III (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on April 18, 2015, 04:26:22 am
If you're talking about the first spell for Black Magic, it is this:

Offset: Fire Spell, Level 1 Magic
61A58  10 64 19 00 00 08 00 2F

Byte 0x0 - 10 is the element, in this case, Fire.

Byte 0x1 - 64 is the % of hit, 64 being 100% obviously.

Byte 0x2- 19 is the spell power, in decimal should be 25 if my brain works today. Offset is 61A5A.

Byte 0x3 - 00 Is the type of spell, in this case  is "normal damage" type.

Byte 0x4 - 00 It seems to point to the target status, but I didn't play with it enough.

Byte 0x5 - 08 This is used to know what kind of targeting does, like, for example, 08 means is single target, but you can multi target it (By dividing the damage between the number of enemies), or 4F which is "Attack all with full damage" for example.

Byte 0x6 - 00 Data Crystal didn't know what it is, but it actually changes the animation for spells! If you change it to 02 it will simulate a Quake animation using the original spell's sprites , and while it look garbled it won't screw up the game. Kind of fun to play with. 03 is the Meteo animation, and so on. 00 uses normal animation.

Byte 0x7 - 2F is the class usability Index, which I didn't touch at all, each level of spells has it's own value.


About the stealing/drop thing, I though the same, but when I looked into it, well...

http://shrines.rpgclassics.com/nes/ff3/enemiesp.shtml

Enemies seem to drop and carry different things, so no luck there. But now you gave me an idea: I'll try to see if those A6 values I see around 21B30 and 21B90 could be the Potion item, because there are too many A6 there, and there's too many potions as monster's steal items , maybe changing them for something easy to see like a piece of equipment will work in some way.

-SUPER EDIT- It ends up, I was right! I never thought it would actually work, what the heck...
(http://s27.postimg.org/fhqsir9ir/Whatafind.png)
Changing the byte in 21B91 (A6) to anything else (I used 37 -Masamune as an example) will give you that item while stealing Goblins! Although, you still steal potions, so they must have several slots with Potions to steal.

It's kind of weird, for example Goblins use 21B90, 21B91, and 21B92. The three have potions, and you'd think that you can change them into anything, but it seems that the game can ignore one of them if it doesn't find a Potion to steal depending on what item is in each slot.

If you put three different things in each slot, maybe the middle one is ignored in favor of Potion. But, if you put something in 21B90 and 91, you may steal them alongside the Potion on 92.

Which I guess it means that one, Maybe I modified Item Group 20, which only give Potions, or two, every Item Group reads several offsets and if I change one thing, every group that has that thing will change. I need to keep trying. Thank you so much.

-EDIT 2- You were right too, Drops and Steal items are the same, a Goblin just dropped a Masamune (How broken is that?) That's pretty interesting....

You can even get several items at once , I just got a Dream Harp and a Masamune in the same fight as drops, and the chance of dropping the items is okay. The thing is that very few enemies leave items when defeated, so it will be tricky to see which ones i give something, but that's another question entirely.

And thank you for taking your time for looking into it too. You don't have to, really, and if you don't see anything it's no problem, so don't feel obligated.

PS: The animation thing is something that surprised me. Even weapons have an animation bit and you can do crazy things with it, like changing axes' or spears' animation to boomerangs, and you see the actual sprite rolling around the screen doing circles.

The game seems very "resistant" to this things, even if you screw up the spells the game won't crash, it just do whatever the values say and continue, even if it's nothing at all or the effect doesn't exist (Like stealing, if you point to a value that it's not valid it will just say "Can't steal" and the game continues like nothing).
Title: Re: Maeson's Final Fantasy III (Famicom)
Post by: STARWIN on April 18, 2015, 03:20:47 pm
Okay, seems like we can deduce a fair amount of things from that page & the monster table in the ROM.

The drop index byte is simply split, part of the bits mean one thing and others other things. As you can see, by default you can steal whatever the monster drops; if the monster drops nothing (00), you can still steal a potion by default. Special code 0A that bombs have allows you to steal certain things without drops. Special codes FF, FE, FD (guess it is hardcoded huh..) cause them to drop ..stuff.. with elixir stealing. Still haven't interpreted how the item list maps to an item, and what the probabilities are.

For drops, for selecting what "item list" a monster dropIndex maps to, only the 5 rightmost bits (byte AND 1F) seem to matter (by default..). A goblin's 20 will be ANDed with 1F, resulting in 00, and by default the code assigns the following group of "indexes":

A6 A6 A6 A6 A7 A7 A9 A8  (because 2^5=32, no more than that amount of different groups like this, as they don't seem to overlap)

By default it seems to pick 8 bytes like this. By default the group is selected at offset 21B90+n*8, where n is the number that the 5 rightmost bits from the monster dropIndex forms. (for goblin, 0*8=0)

But that's just what the code says  :P. And this code part was just about drops, not about stealing.

edit: to clarify, 6th bit from right maybe determines whether there are drops or not, 0x20 = 0010 0000 <- that bit, so that's why bombs wouldn't drop things

Yep, rock gargoyle has the same items as a bomb, but it can drop, and its dropIndex is 0A+20=2A
Title: Re: Maeson's Final Fantasy III (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on April 18, 2015, 04:37:15 pm
Interesting! Although that stills goes somewhat over my head, lol.

So whatever is in 21A90 is the Drop index... No wonder I didn't understand a thing at first, I thought it as the stealing data. I'll take a look at it. Although if it is hardcoded, I don't know if I could manipulate the drops like the steal part can be.

A couple of stupid questions of mine:

You mention the Goblin 0x20, that should be the last part of his Monster Data:

60010 01 05 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 40 00 00 00 00 00 20

That 20 is the pointer to the Item group 20, in the offset: 21BD0

If you change it for another thing it will just point to another group

Does that mean that each pointer has it's own forced drop data just because of the value it has?

Could be a way to make any group to drop every item in itself, then?


Anyway, I've being looking at the Steal thing more than anything, and I know that:

(http://s28.postimg.org/4bvj3osl9/Stealing.png)

This is where all the Stealing items (And therefore, drops) are stored.

Each group is formed by four values, A6 A6 A6 A6, is Potions, and 39 39 39 59 is Onion Swords x3 and Onion Shield; for example.

I've been writing what each of those groups have, which is the Monster value/pointer that each group has, I can recognize most of them comparing the guide's info to the table, there are some that are not used (there is FenixDowns steal data that never got used, what a slap in the face, lol), and all those 00 00 00 00 are usable too, I tried, so there is quite a bit of space for adding things!


I think I can make a decent list of items to steal or Drop (If I can understand it right, of course, i'm pretty damn noob still).

Thank you so much for this info!
Title: Re: Maeson's Final Fantasy III (Famicom)
Post by: STARWIN on April 18, 2015, 05:59:17 pm
Put windows calculator (or whatever you have) to hexadecimal mode, and write the last monster data byte there. Then change it to binary mode.

20 will show up as 0010 0000. Each sequence of bits inside this byte has its own meaning:

PPPp pppp

ppppp <- these you can use to select which 8 byte item group a monster is tied to. It shouldn't be a 4 byte/value group like you suspect. Not sure why this is so.
PPP <- probability and possibly quality of item drops. 0=cannot drop, 1=regular drops (cannot pick last 4 items?), more=higher probability of a drop, possibly allows 4 later items.. it's a pain to confirm from the code though if so

Haven't decoded the first 2 bits yet, but at least one does something special with the dragons who drop/steal different items. Edited my current guess in.

Also, the first group "Item group 20", which is actually just group 0, starts at 21B90 I think, not 21BD0. It's good that you can decode the actual items, I don't know them.

With calculator between hex/binary, you can check what the relations between monsters and items are supposed to be, though it's probably what you already figured out.

The 39 39 39 59 you mentioned are in the 2nd part of the 8 byte group for dragons, A7 A7 A9 A8 is the corresponding goblin one, which isn't necessarily used for anything at all (??).

There is a probability distribution like this in the code, after it has decided (per monster, I think) to drop something:

A = random?
if A < 30 item 0
if A < 60 item 1
if A < 90 item 2
if A < C0 item 3
if A < D8 item 4
if A < F0 item 5
if A < FC item 6
else item 7

So the first four items are equally common, but the 4 later slots get more and more rare. Though if my current guess is right, it's weighted random; it's forced to stay relatively low via some number madness, and you can adjust it with the P bits. Quick testing supports this.

So currently it looks like you can have a few different types of monsters:

Steal up to 4 different items, and drop nothing. (4 first bytes out of 8 matter, last 4 aren't used) (set P to 0 and p points to these 8 bytes)
Steal up to 4 different items, drop these same items. (4 first bytes matter, set P to 1)
untested: Steal up to 4 different items, but can drop a bit more? (when P is between 2 and 6, I think these weights are unused currently)
Steal up to 4 different items, drop these and more. (4 first bytes matter for steal, 4 last bytes drop-only)

p=0 points to 21B90, p=1 points to 21B98 and so on.. up to p=31, after which all 5 bits are used. in binary from 00000 to 11111
P ranges from 0 to 7. in binary from 000 to 111.

Of course if something doesn't work or is unclear, ask. I just wrote this while figuring it out, so it's not always most coherent yet. And everything about stealing is a guess.

By the way, with masamunes and potions, at least the drop code doesn't do anything special with the different item slots (like ignoring something), it just follows the skewed probability distribution earlier AFAIK.
Title: Re: Maeson's Final Fantasy III (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on April 19, 2015, 05:05:11 am
WHOOPS! I meant 21B90, what a stupid typo, sorry!

Yeah, Item Group 20 is the first one, but for the sake of being less confusing, I name each group as it's byte value in the monster data.

I can copy the item list here if you need it, thankfully it uses the same values as the item shops or chest items, which is why It was easier to find what each group has, and they only have usable items making it is easier to figure than equipment.

About stealing and item slots... It seems that the groups really have limitations of some sort, or the Steal skill and it's level acts weird, because if I put more than 2 different items on them they won't show up... Or even if it is just 2 items and none of them is a potion/HiPotion.

Let's say that you want to make the Item Group "Whatever" have, I don't know, Loki Harp (49) and Meteo Magic (C8).

It doesn't matter in which order ( 49 49 C8 C8/ C8 C8 49 49 / 49 C8 49 C8, whatever) you put them, you'll get just one or the other. never both. If you change any of those four to a potion, A6, you then will be able to steal one of the items (depending on which slot it is) and potions too.

I can't understand it. Some groups supposedly had to be designed to have up to 4 items, yet when you try to change it, it locks itself into "just one, or one and potions". Maybe it creates some incompatibilty problem?

At the same time, if you put less "important" items, like Hi Potion, Magic Keys and Pillow in the same group, you can steal the three. So I don't know anymore.

Looking at the FF Wiki, it seems that the Steal command is going to be a little pain in the ass, because depending on the Skill Level of the Thief, the item you will stole changes. Yet I have 4 Thiefs, each one with a different level range and they seem to steal always the same.

I guess that I have to make enemies carry nothing more than one important item. Oh well, at least I still have enough space to give some weapons and armor to them, and make stealing at least useful here and there, because now that i'm thinking about it, I could force players into having always a thief, and would go against my first idea of giving more freedom to use whatever you want.

I'll see what I can do. This is by far the most confusing part since I started, and thank you for your help as always, it has been proven very useful !

PS: Now that you mention asking, Where should I start looking for the Magic Attack Multiplier?

These are the supposed formulas:

Spoiler:
Black Magic Attack Multiplier = (Intellect/16) + (Level/16) + (Skill/32) + 1

White Magic Attack Multiplier = (Spirit/16) + (Level/16) + (Skill/32) + 1

Call Magic Attack Multiplier = (Intellect/8) + (((Skill/8)*3)/2) + 1

It would be useful to know how to modify the Intellect/16 Spirit/16 and most importatnly Skill/32, maybe that way I can improve healing magic, which I find it's a little lacking in the last part of the game, and the grinding for mages in general, but I don't know where to start looking or if it's there at all.

-EDIT- I made a new patch which changes pretty much all of the enemies' stealable items (Andr drops) so 80% of them didn't have just potions, now there is some variety to them, and I also added stealable weapons and armor (And even a couple of spells) thanks to the free space that there is in the table.

Pretty much all of the equipment is late game stuff, so I gave them to enemies you can fight during the second half of the game. No bosses have equipment to steal because that would force the player into having a thief in the party and would not be fun for some.

Every piece of equipment can be adquired as a drop after a fight by the same monster that carries it to steal, too, so even if you don't want to have a thief, you can get them (Although slower, the Thief needs a Positive point in something, lol).

I can't thank you enough, STARWIN, for making that possible.

I think now I'll increase the HP of normal enemies, some of them are ridiculously low. But that can wait, I'll tired of seeing hex right now.
Title: Re: Maeson's Final Fantasy III (Famicom)
Post by: STARWIN on April 19, 2015, 01:19:02 pm
Yeah, Item Group 20 is the first one, but for the sake of being less confusing, I name each group as it's byte value in the monster data.

Okay, but values 00, 20, 40, 60, 80, A0, C0, E0 all point to the same item group. This should allow you to have goblins that only drop potions, and upgraded goblins that would drop better and better items from the same group.

I'll look at stealing at some random point in time.

If you want to look for magic damage formula, you would have to understand 6502 asm and be able to use FCEUX debugger. But otherwise I'll look at that later - changing a formula like that should be fairly easy, especially if it is enough to divide by some other 2^n number instead of the current ones.

If you want stealing to have some unique, but non-missable benefit, you could use P value 0 (group value <20) for some tough but ordinary opponent that can be found somewhere to make it non-droppable. Of course you might have a better idea after I have looked how stealing works, though by experimenting you can sometimes acquire about the same info that can be read from the code itself.
Title: Re: Maeson's Final Fantasy III (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on April 19, 2015, 03:15:41 pm
Okay, but values 00, 20, 40, 60, 80, A0, C0, E0 all point to the same item group. This should allow you to have goblins that only drop potions, and upgraded goblins that would drop better and better items from the same group.

Yes, after rolling each value from 00 to FF to see what each one do I saw several pointing to the same place in the same sequence (Even part the unused ones, thankfully), and that's rather useful!

It will come in handy for giving equipment to monsters here and there while taking advantage of the space it gives to you AND not breaking the sense of progress. Now my problem on the prior post about this matter is pretty much inexistent.

The thing is that I need to see from where I start, because you don't start with the Thief job, so I have to think if I distribute equipment from the begnning so it can be dropped or not, because I seriously doubt someone is going to lower level places for obsolete items xD.

It will take some time, but I think I have all I needed for this.

If you want stealing to have some unique, but non-missable benefit, you could use P value 0 (group value <20) for some tough but ordinary opponent that can be found somewhere to make it non-droppable. Of course you might have a better idea after I have looked how stealing works, though by experimenting you can sometimes acquire about the same info that can be read from the code itself.

It's a very good idea. I'll have to see which type of item would go well with it.
There are some enemies that are tough like the King Behemoth that would fit pretty well with the idea. And if there aren't, I can change them.

Thank you for that. Well, for everything as always!

I also thought about mixing a little some classes, like changing the Mystic Knight to use Lvl 1/3 Black Magic and give the Knight the White Magic it originally has, while giving the Bard some kind of Red Mage suit with low level magic for being more of a support class (Something like old western RPG Bards). But that's just an Idea for now, I still have to do the steal and HP things before.

-EDIT- Updated the DropBox link, I touched previous patches, I improved the Stealing Patch, I added another one that increases the HP of most enemies and a text file that list the new Hp of each enemy, the Readme has been updated too.


-EDIT 2- Updated the Drop Box link again, I revised all the patches, made some changes for the better, solved a few problems, and added a new file that combines almost all of the changes into one single patch for easy use in case you want "everything".

For now I think it's all I'll do. Now I'll replay the game with all the patches to see how things go and if everything goes well, I think i'll try to add it to the ROM hacks.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: STARWIN on April 22, 2015, 07:55:34 pm
Seems like you are happy with stealing & drops. If the results work and raise no questions, I won't do any research on them. Otherwise, ask.

But what about magic multiplier formulas? Are you happy with the current moddability?

I found the formulas in the code, but they all use the same code and there seems to be only one formula: (x/16) + (LV/16) + (SKL/32) + 1

x = INT*2 or INT or SPI depending on the magic type. Changing these might be easy, for example to SPI*2 for white magic (but I don't yet know how).

Everyone seems to use skill and level ... which conflicts with the FAQ. Though the numbers I see it using also differ from the ingame skill and level numbers sometimes.. it's a bit unclear currently.

If you want to do experiments with the main formula, it is possible. But I'm not sure if it solves anything and what the actual skill and level values are, especially for call magic.

location of formula part:
630AD: INT / SPI / INT*2
630A6: LV
6309D: SKL

value to put in, and what it means:
3C -> *64
3D -> *32
3E -> *16
3F -> *8
40 -> *4
41 -> *2
42 -> *1
48 -> /2
47 -> /4
46 -> /8
45 -> /16
44 -> /32
43 -> /64

And finally, the calculations happen with small numbers (0-FF , 0-255), so it won't support very crazy tests very well (128*2=0).

The base damage formula can also be "changed" if it matters.. but once again, one formula for all magic/items is used: (x/2 + spell power)

631D6: 4A -> x/2, EA -> x, 0A -> x*2

For example, anyone using a WhiteScent item contributes user's SPI/2 to the base damage. (not that it matters.. just something I never noticed, and which is a small surprise for me)

edit: hmm, now that i think about it, there is a lot of code reuse: monsters use these things as well when casting magic, and if SPI is changed to SPI*2, it will also affect white magic hit% and possibly other similar things (all numbers that look the same are usually the same variables). Of course spell power changes may already affect some monster magic as-is.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on April 23, 2015, 05:06:49 am
Well, as I said I' replaying it to see where can I improve it a little more, what more can I add, or if things go well.

For now (I'm not that far from the beginning, I'm right at Nepto's cave in one playhtrough and after Hyne in another) the steal/drop thing is working pretty well compared to vanilla, I still need to see if I add weapons to normal enemies; but at least I can say that now you can get a good deal of items while fighting normally, Potions, Magic casting items, Fenix Downs, Magic keys, and things like that, which can be sold for extra cash and spend  less time "farming" money if you don't want them.

At least is more than nothing or just a potion from time to time. The added FenixDown are kinda nice because you don't need to stop, go back and revive each time someone dies, and while it's a trope of old school RPG's, it can get tedious.

The monsters with weapons and defensive gear were changed quite a bit since the comment where I said that I had problems with several items showing up in each group, I really don't understand what it was, but now I'm able to make each one drop/carry to steal between two and three pieces of equipment each, with recovery items to fill the other slots and make getting those items a little harder.

I'll see what more I can change, but the game doesn't have that much variety in usable items like the next games in the series, though:
http://guides.gamercorner.net/ffiii/items/

As you can see the majority of items are just "1 time spells", or items that are sold in stores...

Another small thing I've seen is that, now that early mages have a little boost to their initial Vitality (They start with as much as the Warrior) you can level up without fear of being screwed later or needing to change jobs just to level up and then go back to the prior one you were using (Although you can still do that as Monk as higher VIT as always).



About the Multiplier, no, i'm not that happy about that, but I didn't expect to be found so fast!

I seriously didn't expect that.

Yes, I also found that what the guide says and how the the game acts are not really the same.

It may be just enough to work with, seeing that the main problem is how long it takes to Magic/Terrain to improve, each 32 skill levels, which means just 3 upgrades, at 33, 65 and 97 and you will be wasting your time with Black/White Mage seeing how both have a direct upgrade in Warlock/Shaman, so it feels even more pointless to grind them.

If with this I can diminish the grinding feeling for skill job or give a better reward for leveling it up, it will be great.

I'll experiment later!

While playing with the hack I saw that buffing magic spells themselves affect monsters that use the same spells as you, so spell-casting enemies far more dangerous too (For example the Mummies at the beginning of the game use Venom spell, and it hits for around 80 points of health being a Level 2 Spell, so that's a big enough change right there, the same happens with the Firefry or Djinn and the Fire Spell), and if the multiplier thing stacks too, it may be a little broken, although I want them to be powerful to some extent.

Hyne was also an asshole spamming Ice2/Fire2/Bolt2. He hits hard now, and at the same time, he gets destroyed if you hit him with the weakness he has at that moment.

But thankfully I can always change the Int and skill values for balance issues if one of the baddies make things too difficult or unfair.

And most probably I will have to do it a couple of times, because I remember several enemies with both Skill and Int well over one hundred...


I'll stop the playtest to tinker and try things with this and later add it to my actual playthrough to see how it goes.

EDIT: By the way, could the Physical attack multiplier be around this part too?

EDIT 2: After looking how the damage changes on different settings on maxed (99 Int/Spirit 99 level 99 Job) and half way characters (around 50 level 50 job) I  think this won't need big changes.

Int Spirit /8 causes the damage to skyrocket and it's kind of ridiculous, I don't want to imagine how early could you achieve 9999 damage with something like *32 or *64...

I'll try testplaying with Skill/8, or Level/8 Skill/16. Let's see what happens.

And 63096 seems to be used for Call Magic, I changed it unintentionally and discoverd it, lol.

Thank you so much, STARWIN!
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: STARWIN on April 23, 2015, 03:06:23 pm
Physical multiplier doesn't, thankfully, seem to be using the same formula.

I did a quick test of what input the formula actually gets in different situations:

Code: [Select]
sage  stat holy fire bahamut shiva
SKL   12   11   11   22      22
LV    52   51   51   22      22
INT   64        64
INT*2 128            128     128
SPI   69   69

SKL   99   98        196
LV    99   98        196
INT    2
INT*2  4             128
SPI    3   69

In short, the FAQ is (kind of) correct but modding the formula requires a bit more insight. Here is how the single formula looks like in case of different magic types:

black: (INT/16) + ((LV-1)/16) + ((SKL-1)/32) + 1
white: (SPI/16) + ((LV-1)/16) + ((SKL-1)/32) + 1
call: (INT*2/16) + ((SKL-1)*2/16) + ((SKL-1)*2/32) + 1

So you'll be modding all of these simultaenously.

The game shows level and skill one higher than what it has stored internally. The shown INT and SPI aren't used, but the numbers it uses still happen to be the same (and if I brute-force them, it still knows the right ones, haha).

Touching something like 63096 just changes some of the code nearby, in a mostly unknown manner. You can't really deduce much with code like you can with data, at least without knowing asm. The debugger shows these numbers in asm mnemonics, and that's the way to go for reading code.

If you want to change something small in the game, just ask. In the worst case I just don't do anything  :P. Designing a mod is more difficult/time-consuming than figuring out (simple) things from the code like these in any case.

edit: IIRC call magic has different effects depending on the job, and I didn't explicitly test those. The FAQ seems to think they all use the same formula, which would then be the default guess.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on April 23, 2015, 05:54:24 pm
Oh, so 63096 doesn't do anything? My bad then. :-X

I got my ass kicked by the GiantRat/Big Rat at Nepto's Shrine. Two turns, two spells, and then game over.

I didn't see that one comming. Although it was funny to look at. I mean, the thing has 17 intelligence. It's level 2, so it doesn't get any bonus for that. It doesn't even have Skill level.  And I even reduced Fire2/Ice2/Bolt 2 power a little. Wow.

I don't even want to know what Ahriman or Echidna do.

I may need to take more time to look at it... I'm trying Int-Spirit/16 Level/16 and Skill/8 now and it goes better...

But who knows if I have to change it later... Or even reduce the power of most spells and make the Int/Level/Skill part have more weight... I'll see. It's a thing of patience i guess, because I don't want to make this game too frustrating or a cake walk...

About the Call Magic, it does indeed do different things depending on which job uses them, but all of the effects and variants are just different spells, like 61c60 being High Summon Megaflare and 61c58 is "Rend", the black effect of normal summon (Which I changed to a Full screen attack) and they seem to use the same formula, based on the changes I made to two of those spells.

I really don't know what more I want to know how to change. Maybe the Physical Attack Multiplier, but not much more.

Well, besides the idea I talked about the other day about giving some classes magic, but seeing the Level up table, the spell usability table, and that I don't understand how they work yet, or if the spell usability would even consider classes like Bard or Knight that never were designed to have magic; I'll let that one out of this for now, so no questions there.

And I'm abusing your kindness already...

EDIT Everything seems going pretty well from Hyne to Goldor, but God, elemental resistances are a double egded sword. It's not like you take less damage against one element, and that's it, it also makes you extremely weak against another (Which makes things like the Flame/Ice Armor kind of hilarious seeing how they are weak against what they are made of...).

The dangerous part is that enemies possess several elements (It's not like "ice enemies have Ice based attacks"), for example Kraken, which is supposed to be this ice/water foe for the Water Crystal, uses Bolt2 and Fire2, and because of the randomness you'll most probably take "super effective" damage with the best armor that you can get at that point either being mage or a physical character...

I don't know if I'm going to remove some resistances because it makes some pieces of armor really risky to have ( Taking 1300 of damage instead of the 300/400 you should take normally) and make Magic Def more important, or change the usability of some armor so every character has at least one option without element.

This is time consuming but it's more fun than I thought, actually.

EDIT 2- How in the hell the Draining health ability of some weapons is tied to the damn class usability byte?!? If you change it to make other classes able to use it it loses the draining effect...

EDIT 3- BUT IT'S EVEN MORE WEIRD! If you put the Draining ability to a weapon which is class usability it's just 1 class (Like Thief/Viking for Orichalcum or the axes)  It will work even if none of the weapons for that character would have draining abilities originally.

Seriously, what's up with that... I'm going to change some weapons around a bit... Although that gave me an idea...
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: STARWIN on April 30, 2015, 10:39:49 am
EDIT 2- How in the hell the Draining health ability of some weapons is tied to the damn class usability byte?!? If you change it to make other classes able to use it it loses the draining effect...

EDIT 3- BUT IT'S EVEN MORE WEIRD! If you put the Draining ability to a weapon which is class usability it's just 1 class (Like Thief/Viking for Orichalcum or the axes)  It will work even if none of the weapons for that character would have draining abilities originally.

If one byte seems to do two different things, the first thing to check is if it consists of two value fields, one indicating draining and the other class usability. Just like drop index has two parts. Just like with dropping, this would mean that there are multiple values giving the same class usability, one with draining and the other without.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on April 30, 2015, 11:59:15 am
If one byte seems to do two different things, the first thing to check is if it consists of two value fields, one indicating draining and the other class usability. Just like drop index has two parts. Just like with dropping, this would mean that there are multiple values giving the same class usability, one with draining and the other without.

Indeed, that was my idea! Thankfully this time I wasn't horribly wrong.

For example the value 96 is used for the group of classes Onion kid, Red Mage, Knight, Thief, Viking and Dragoon, and doesn't give that ability, but if we change that 96 for the value 16, we have the same classes plus the drain HP thing. The same happens with 1B and 9B, both being a "All but M. Knight" group.

Funny enough, most of them are pretty easy to figure them out, for example 2A and AA, 1D and 9D, 11 and 91, share the same groups but the lower one gives the drain effect.

This must mean that lower values are "intended" for weapons and higher ones for armor, even when the original game uses the "wrong" ones from time to time (that threw me off guard a little, when a class like bard has two different values for himself yet others use the same).

I still find this kind of random, seeing how there is an "element" for that already, and without it it wont work even if it's using the special value for the drain effect.

At least this small problem had an easy fix, just needed to change the usability values for lower ones.
But it surely made me go "what the f***" for  a while.

Sadly it seems that you can't give "drain effect" to armor. It could have been nice to give this property to a bracalet or something.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: STARWIN on April 30, 2015, 01:09:33 pm
For bytes with split meanings it would be most convenient to document them as bitfields, instead of hex values. 1 byte is 8 bits, and typically a bit in a certain position can be used as a variable of its own. You only need to turn some hex values into bit form to see the patterns:

9B = 1001 1011 "all but MKnight" "drains"
1B = 0001 1011 "all but MKnight"

my first guess for bit meanings would be something like:

d??c cccc , where d=1 drains, ? is unknown/unused, c form either the class group number, or even better, each c bit means a group of classes

so if the c bits are simple like this, 3rd bit from right would signify MKnight usability (0000 0100 = 04 in hex), and we could have a more accurate format d??c cMcc , and so on with the other c bits

the drain bit alone is 1000 0000 which is 80 in hex, which is the difference between 9B and 1B and other such pairs.

if the original game appears inconsistent in some part, like using two different values for bard usability, there may very well be a reason. For example if one of the ? bits means something and some bard item has it set while the other doesn't..
Title: Re: Maeson's Final Fantasy III (Famicom)
Post by: chillyfeez on April 30, 2015, 01:12:02 pm
Thank you. Honestly, sharing things I make is not my strong suit, i'm always afraid of it not being that great.

And I know there isn't going to be that much interest, if people where interested in FF3j, there should have been any kind of hack similar to this already (Although that's maybe because there was no much info to go with) like the tons of hacks for FF I or IV, but after all, this started as a personal thing made for my own use, if it ends up making someone else's day the better!

What I don't know if it's worthy of being uploaded to Romhacking.net. I guess I'll wait to see what happens.

I had fun looking into this, and i've learned a bit of how things work or what I could do to make the classes more fun to play with the limits I have, and I took a lot of notes in case someone tries to do something with this game.

Sorry, I just saw this and felt the need to respond. I know it's a little belated...

The fact that there isn't much documented doesn't really mean there's no interest. Sometimes research into a particular game just takes one or a few people to jumpstart it all - and with any Final Fantasy game, the interest will surely be there.

You cite the amount of FFIV hacks that are out there, but the truth is, a lot of what is known about FFIV only really surfaced within the last three years. I mean the locations of party and enemy stats and item info, etc was known, but doing anything large scale with it was a nightmare (FFIV is completely amateur hour in the way it's programmed - seriously). Then PinkPuff started working on FF4kster, and the ease of editing that provided led curious minds like Grimoire LD and myself to research a lot of previously unknown information, and then folks like Vivify93 and Rodimus Primal started doing full-scale localizations... My point is, interest within the ROM hacking community can snowball pretty quickly.

I mean, let's face it, this is just a hobby. We're not allowed to make money off of ROM hacking, for obvious reasons, so we only do it because of the intrinsic fun of exploring and messing with the games... So there's no good reason to hide your projects away for fear of reception.
 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on April 30, 2015, 02:08:52 pm
To STARWIN:

The thing is that, as far as I can see, the only real difference I've been able to see is that while there are two "sets" of values, the ones used for weapons, and the ones used for armors, it only affects the draining hp effect, the rest of the things work perfectly.

If you give a weapon an armor's value, it will still be used as a weapon, it will give you the correct attack, accuracy, bonus stats, it will spread the status effects, use the element to improve the attack... Just like if you were using a weapon value.

the same goes for armor everything as intended, that's why it surprised me so much how this little thing that isn't even that common is connected to the usability table/values.

I didn't see any differences at all. besides the Draining Life, while playing (And I had to restart the game a couple of times with different classes and items).

----------
To chillyfeez:

Well, after seeing all kinds of hacks for FF 1, 2 (Although it was for the GBA port), 4, 5, 6... It kind of felt strange that 3 was the only one that didn't have that much to offer in the hacking comunity.

I didn't want to say anything bad against the romhacks and mods that are developed for FF ! / IV.
In fact I love the games and there are some works that amaze me about how far some people can get, and what they can do, but I meant that I find interesting to see how much work go towards those games and this one was still pretty unknown.

It just seemed strange to me because, as you say, it's Final Fantasy, not some unknown RPG...

Obviously this things are made as a hobby or the wish of wanting to change things. That's actually why I started to mess with this one, if it wasn't for DataCrystal's notes I probably wouldn't gone very far in the first place.

What reminds me, what could be the best way of sharing the (most probably mediocre) notes I'm doing? I would need to clean them up and all that, and even then it's mostly simple stuff, but...
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: chillyfeez on April 30, 2015, 02:30:07 pm
You probably wanna check out slick productions (http://www.slick productions.org).
Actually, never looked for it before, but there seems to be a ff3 world map editor there ("ff3 hackster").
Anyway, the slick forum is basically a one-stop square RPG hacking haven. I don't think there is a page there specifically devoted to ff3, but I'm sure you can find an appropriate place there to share your findings. If you dig, you might even find some stuff about ff3 that isn't documented anywhere else.
A warning: getting an account registered at slick (in order to actually post on the forum) can be a pain in the ass, because there are some obscure questions about some obscure games you are asked to answer to verify your humanity.
If you get a question you can't answer, reload the page, there is a pool of about ten questions and it asks (I think) three of them at random. If you get the one about the color of the website, answer "purple." They're talking about the main site, not the forum.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on April 30, 2015, 03:18:36 pm
Perfect, then. Once this is mostly finished I'll clean the notes and see where I can put them.

Looking at the docs they have for FF I, I think i'll need to expand a little more my notes to add things like weapon sprites/animations/palette, which I didn't take seeing as my idea was mostly "gameplay based", but it is a pretty easy thing to write down and I don't have a problem doing it.

Although I played with it a little, and it's fun to see pretty much anything with the boomerang/FullMoon animation.
I even glitched the game once and the character kept moonwalking across the screen for the eternity.

Thanks for the info, and for the advice about registering. I'll see how much of a nerd I am when I get to that!
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on May 15, 2015, 10:54:34 am
Sorry of not saying anything in all this time, but I was kind of busy and most the free time I had I wanted to use it in the hack to finish it as soon as I could by testplaying, fixing, changing and adding a little extras.


I believe i'm ready to ulpoad this to RHDN but I have a couple of questions:

Should I make a "News update" about his, or is not big/important enough for that?

I want to add STARWIN in the credits for the valuable help he offered me, but, how do I add more people to the submission? Do I have to add him after doing it? With which type of contribution should I add him?

Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Grimoire LD on May 15, 2015, 11:11:35 am
Sorry of not saying anything in all this time, but I was kind of busy and most the free time I had I wanted to use it in the hack to finish it as soon as I could by testplaying, fixing, changing and adding a little extras.


I believe i'm ready to ulpoad this to RHDN but I have a couple of questions:

Should I make a "News update" about his, or is not big/important enough for that?

I want to add STARWIN in the credits for the valuable help he offered me, but, how do I add more people to the submission? Do I have to add him after doing it? With which type of contribution should I add him?


I would say go ahead and create a News Update for it. This isn't some small hack, or a graphic change, this looks to be a pretty extensive hack of the game! As for the other questions... I'm not sure myself.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: STARWIN on May 15, 2015, 05:22:51 pm
I want to add STARWIN in the credits for the valuable help he offered me, but, how do I add more people to the submission? Do I have to add him after doing it? With which type of contribution should I add him?

Don't worry about that part. This site is pretty flexible so you can edit details like that later anyway.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on May 15, 2015, 05:48:03 pm
Don't worry about that part. This site is pretty flexible so you can edit details like that later anyway.

Oh, so you can edit later? Perfect! Thanks.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: magictrufflez on May 19, 2015, 02:22:29 am
As for interest in your hack, I can confirm I, for one am very interested.  FF3 is actually the only FF I've never even played before (partly because I'm always slightly suspicious of any game where I hear people only talking about how great the class system is and not much else), but you've done more than enough work here to convince me to give it a go!  I'm playing through a few other hacks at the moment, but I'll definitely pop in from time to time with feedback if you'd like Maeson

Also, one question--are there any known bugs/issues I should know about?  I went through the readme, but I may have missed them.  I'm planning on going all out and using all your balancing patches and the moar HP patch.  Not sure about the pallette ones yet, however
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on May 19, 2015, 03:59:15 am
First, thanks for showing interest!

While it's true that FFIII is remembered by it's class system, I personally think it's the best FF for NES (If we don't count hacks, of course). Visually looks pretty good for the system, the music while not upbeat and catchy as some of the most well known NES soundtracks are, I think it fits very well, is very melodic, with a serene vibe in most of it's tracks.

There isn't much int he way of the story, but that's okay because you have a lot of freedom to explore. It's also one of the games that added a lot of things to the series, like Moogles, classes like Dragoon or Dark Knight, summons, multiple overworlds and more.

I did like four and a half test playthroughs with different classes and repeating places with different partys trying to get all the problems I could see and fix them.

As far as glitches or bugs, no, not really. I didn't find anything that can be considered one of those. But if you find something weird with my hack please, tell me and I'll try to look into it (Although most of the stuff I did wasn't very advanced so it shouldn't happen).

Although I want to warn you, and anyone that wants to play FFIII (My hack or vanilla, either way).

DON'T USE SAVE FILE/STATE EDITORS FOR ADDING CLASSES TO THE LIST. The save file will corrupt itself, and will f**k up you progress by glitching in two ways:

1º, If you added the classes before leaving the first "overworld" of the game, there will be an event glitch and you will not be able to continue because the game skipped a chunk of the story and you'll have to restart.

2º, If you added the classes after leaving the first "overworld" of the game, and go back to the first overworld (either or items or the several optional things you can do there), when you go back to the normal world, there will be an event reset and you will be sent back to a prior state of it and you'll be stuck forever in that area.

There's also another events that will skip, like when you talk to the Crystals after defeating bosses. So please, bear that in mind. The save file/state editors modify something that it also counts as an event checker, besides the class list.

The half test playhtrough was because of that problem, lol.

By the way, if someone is curious about importing their save files into this hack, you can. You'll need to remove all the pieces of equipment of all the characters, change their classes(as in, Knight->Onion Kid->Knight, if you are going to use the same class), and re-equip everything for all the changes to have effect, though, and if you want to go back to the original, just do the same while running the original version.

You can give feedback if you want, i'm unexperienced with these kind of things, so if you see something that can have it's balance improved, go and say it, as seeing others opinions can help to make a better thing, and knowing how I am, i'm sure I went too far in a few places, or maybe I had to go further in others.

Thankfully the idea of giving a bunch of patches was just for cases in which you don't want everything, or you could do it without something. It also helps making things faster and easier to check.

The palettes are a tough one, because there are not many colors to choose from, and you can't edit each class for itself, it's an entire group of none, so getting a color that works for everybody is kind of difficult.

I think i'll add more colors in the future, if changes have to be made.

Maybe I have to redo the main post and add things...
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Spooniest on May 19, 2015, 07:41:39 am
This looks interesting, but I'm right in the middle of playing through FF3 for PC. Perhaps sometime later?
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: magictrufflez on May 19, 2015, 07:49:15 am
No need to worry about the save state editting stuff---I personally try to avoid using save states generally, and try to play through the game naturally (with only a few exceptions--FF4 rare drops come to mind).  This is part of why I tend to wait for comprehensive hacks like yours anymore before I tackle (or retackle) older games--most of them have a metric ton of problems I think I'm too old to deal with anymore. 

I'll just keep my eyes peeled for anything that doesn't seem like its working the way it's supposed to and let you know when I come across it!
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on May 19, 2015, 08:06:20 am
This looks interesting, but I'm right in the middle of playing through FF3 for PC. Perhaps sometime later?

Just give it a go when and if you want, easy as that, if it's not now, whenever you feel it, because playing the same game twice at the same time can get pretty boring.

How the PC version holds compared to the DS?

No need to worry about the save state editting stuff---I personally try to avoid using save states generally, and try to play through the game naturally (with only a few exceptions--FF4 rare drops come to mind).  This is part of why I tend to wait for comprehensive hacks like yours anymore before I tackle (or retackle) older games--most of them have a metric ton of problems I think I'm too old to deal with anymore. 

I'll just keep my eyes peeled for anything that doesn't seem like its working the way it's supposed to and let you know when I come across it!

I just warn in case someone tries it. I was annoyed when that happened to me during one of the test playthroughs, imagine if it was a "normal" one.

The same happens to me, sometimes looking back at those games that were amazing back then but now you know they have issues here and there hurt a little the feeling of playing them again.

For example since I discovered the Mod of Balance by ludmeister for FF1 and 2 for the GBA is my go to version of the games.

I hope at least you have a little fun with this.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Spooniest on May 19, 2015, 08:49:10 am
Just give it a go when and if you want, easy as that, if it's not now, whenever you feel it, because playing the same game twice at the same time can get pretty boring.

How the PC version holds compared to the DS?

It works out pretty good! I still wish there were more Phoenix Downs in the game :/ But you can't have it all.

Kudos on your work!
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Kea on May 19, 2015, 02:21:15 pm
Hello! I was the one who put up the FF3 Data Crystal page; at the time, it represented the sum total of my knowledge of the ROM (sans doc on individual items/weapons). I'd been working on a balance mod of my own and had gotten pretty far, but real life intervened and I never managed to finish it. I'm stoked to see such an complete hack of FF3 out here - great stuff! I haven't been active recently or else I would have been able to offer help when you were starting out, but it looks like you managed pretty well as it is. I'll definitely try this mod out when I have some free time.

One thing I should point out: you don't necessarily have to work with the existing class usability groups. There's a few unused groups you can edit, plus there's enough empty space to add 14 totally new groups without running up against other data.

Something I did with my unreleased hack was to add new books, lances and bows by replacing weapons that weren't really necessary (Wooden Arrows, Rune Staff, one of the claws, the Hammer, etc), just to give more variety to those classes' weapon selection. It's something to consider.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on May 19, 2015, 03:27:59 pm
Oh , it was you who put the info? I owe you everything then! Seriously, thank you.

About the usability groups, yes, you're totally right. The thing is that as I was developing the 1.0 (Well, the first release in any case) version I ended up using already created groups because of my lack of knowledge (I'm really new with this) and because I wanted to leave free space (at least I realized that) in case I wanted to make magic usability groups.

Truth is, as it is now it's not perfect (And i'm on my way to change it for the better), but i've been looking into it, in fact earlier today I was writing in the notes I'm making how it works and it's easier than I thought when I started:

Each group of 3 bytes, like 3F FF FF has to be seen as a binary. In this case, 0011 1111 1111 1111 1111 1111.

The first two numbers are not used as far as I know, the rest reads in reverse order compared to base stats, for example:

Ninja, Sage, Summoner, Shaman, Warlock, Bard, Conjurer, M.Knight, Black Belt, Viking, Dragoon, Geomancer, Scholar, Thief, Knight, Hunter, Red Mage, Black Mage, White Mage, Monk, Fighter and Onion Kid.

In this case, it's value 00 and will be able to be used by everybody.

Your last part is really interesting to me. How did you change an item's type? Did you just edit the battle sprite and usabilty group, or it was a "total" transformation to another weapon type (With icon on the item list and all that).

Because something i've been looking into is to create some spells for certain classes in the future, yet i'm kind of lost in that regard. The game needs the item to be magic so I can put it on the characters' spell list, but I don't know how to do it.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Kea on May 19, 2015, 04:08:50 pm
To change a weapon's type completely, I indeed edited the weapon's battle sprite/palette and usability index. In additon, I edited the weapon's text data, which is stored at $3CC3A.

All of the text data in the A.W.Jackson / N.Corlett is stored uncompressed, but in order to accommodate multiple-letter characters, item icons and text command codes it's not stored in ASCII. Instead they use these hex codes (https://www.dropbox.com/s/b4ztzdi09884mr6/Hex%20codes%20for%20text.txt?dl=1). You can edit the hex code which corresponds to the weapon icon and change it to whatever other icon you want.

Some other things you might find useful:
-Partial chart of what shops sell, their offset in the ROM, and the offset of their pointer (https://www.dropbox.com/s/c5exal3krmcutdv/Shop%20Data.xml?dl=1)
-Partial list of chest content offsets (https://www.dropbox.com/s/kv6galttgvbhs6z/Partial%20chest%20offsets.txt?dl=1)
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on May 19, 2015, 05:35:13 pm
I'll share too what I've been writing down:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/eojgju74atri84y/Hacking%20Notes%20clean%201%2C1.rar?dl=0

Most probably you have everything i have in a less amateurish way, but just in case.

Chest offsets is something i havent looked at yet!

About the items... I've been able to change the icon and all that jazz, so one thing less. Now if I knew how to modify what the game think the item is, or point to another place...
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Leviathan Mist on May 20, 2015, 05:44:22 pm
Hey, just wanted to point out that I like these changes you made, but I wanted to throw in a suggestion. In the untranslated version, the job selection screen shows the skill level of every job at once on it. When the game was originally translated, the translators decided to remove that in favor of more character space available for each job name, so you now have to change jobs and then look individually at your stats page just to see what skill level that job is. There should be an optional patch that adds back the job level listing on the job selection screen from the original Japanese version. I know that character space is an issue, but I'd gladly sacrifice a few extra letters at the end of some job names to be able to see my skill level progress on all of my jobs at once in the English translated version of the game. I feel this becomes more important in a mod like this, as many more jobs become useful and you're not just focusing on the same exact ones for each character anymore. Also considering the fact that formulas have been changed to make skill level more effective.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on May 21, 2015, 02:33:33 am
I could take a look on it, although I don't know if I have enough capabilities to do it.

I guess I'll start comparing the translated and untranslated versions.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Korichu on May 21, 2015, 02:05:00 pm
These patches seem really cool, I'm gonna have to try them. It reminds me of how I wanted to make the White Mages able to use bows because I thought it was silly they couldn't when if I remember right, Black Mages can.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on May 21, 2015, 03:33:20 pm
They can equip a couple of them here, although as Black Mages, they are not very good with bows.

I was thinking about giving them some kind of weapon to use, but I didn't know how they would benefit from that, seeing that now staves and rods give bonuses to Int/Spirit which can be useful to achieve a higher Magic Attack Multiplier for both healing and damaging spells like Aero or Holy in the White Mage case, and some Agi or Vit depending on what item.

I'm seeing how could I reorganize things with custom usability groups, as I want to distribute things in a better way than i did with this release. Weapons, Armor are sure to change (Not entirelly, but more of a "Now I don't have to sacrifice a class for another" way), and Magic i'm doubting what to do.

I want to change some spells (Like changing Kill into a dark spell that the Dark/Mystic Knight could use) and also give some magic to some classes, and by modifying groups on the Base MP table i'm able to give magic points, but I don't know if that would be ok seeing how some classes will lose a command, even if most people i've talked to usually ignore things like Defend.

I guess it depends on how it's done.

Although all this will take some time to plan, of course.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: magictrufflez on May 22, 2015, 02:07:43 pm
Maeson, quick question regarding the character palette-change patches:

Do each set only affect certain classes (the ones displayed in the pics), or certain characters (ie Set 1=Character 1, Set 2=Character 2, etc)?  I wasn't quite sure from the readme which patch affects what character under what conditions.

I ended up using some of the menu palette-swaps, and they're quite a bit easier on the eyes than I thought they would be (I normally change my FF menu colors to straight black first chance I get)--the purple is a bit bright for me, but the rest actually look pretty good in game.  So, nice work on the visual changes so far! 
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on May 22, 2015, 02:18:46 pm
I personally like the black one for the main menu too, at least for this game, as it makes the sprites easier to look at and the original blue is a little to bright in my TV.

About the character palettes, i'll try to explain:

Set 1 only affects Onion Kid, Fighter, White Mage, Red Mage, Knight, Scholar, Shaman, Sage and Ninja

Set 2 only affects Monk, Black Mage, Geomancer, Dragoon, Viking, Black Belt, M. Knight, and Warlock.

Set 3 only affects Hunter, Thief, Conjurer, Bard, and Summoner.

Putting it in a few words, each patch changes one palette, and because they are only 3 palettes, jobs are put in "sets".
You can use one patch for each set.

When I release my 1.1 patch I'll re-do that part to be easier to understand and add screenshots for all clases for each palette swap, if it's needed, and maybe add some more colors, if I find something it looks at least decent.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: magictrufflez on May 23, 2015, 02:08:38 am
Thanks Maeson---I think if you include which classes are affected by which set in the readme, you should be good.  I think you cover each class you mentioned in the screenshot sets you attached, so you probably wouldn't need to do much more work there IMO (unless you really wanted to of course)

I know when I fired up the game to make sure all the patches were taking effect properly, I saw there were 3 color schemes for my main characters, so that was what primarily confused me.

Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on May 23, 2015, 03:27:18 am
Yes, I need to do a better job with the Readme, which I freely admit I suck at doing those, and not only the palette part of it needs a better job at writing looking at it for a moment, thankfully I can edit it easily once I have the update ready.

Do you want to request/suggest  a color combination?

I also want to post an idea of what spells would fit some classes, but i'm yet to make the full list.

Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: magictrufflez on May 23, 2015, 07:46:57 am
I think the color combinations you gave work well for me, so nothing specific, not that there's much more you can probably do with the NES colorscheme (and the colorschemes in this particular game) without more extensive hacking.

And don't worry about the readme too much--your hack has more to do with rebalancing rather than anything else, and it communicates what you changed well enough.  Just that one part wasn't very clear.  You were probably more focused on the hacking rather than proofreading anyways, which is understandable, so don't smash yourself up too much over it.

May 27, 2015, 06:07:19 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
So, I'm at the part where I'm supposed to go to the Dwarf Village/Cave, but I have 2 things I wanted to note:

---This has absolutely no negative impact on the gameplay by any means, but Desh would change color when I enter certain places for some reason, both on the map and in the menu screen.  It's kind of an odd bug, considering how NES pallettes work, but it was something that seemed out of place.  For the record, my battle/camp menu is green/greenborders, and I used the Red/Set2 and Blue/Set3 character sprite patches

---One gameplay thing that really bothered me was the Nepto Shrine boss.  Granted, I am using the moarHP patch, but I was at what I thought was a respectable level, and that mouse absolutely smoked me with his Fire2/Ice2 in 2 rounds.  I'm not sure if you went in and changed some of the spells available for various monsters, but if you dive back in, I'd advise changing the mouse's spell selection to use "1" spells instead of "2" spells.  I only beat him because I lucked out and got some crits and he ended up not using his more powerful attacks.

Other than that one balancing issue, I like how the moarHP patch has gelled with the rest of the work you did so far.  Nothing is ridiculously overwhelming one way or another (other than that mouse), but I'm pretty sure I haven't been utilizing the class system very well.  Should I be frequently shifting the class make-up of my party or just sticking with 1 general setup?  I'm currently playing with a Fighter/Monk/Blk/Wht Wizards, which what I've gone with since the start.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on May 27, 2015, 05:56:46 pm
Desh is supposed to change colors in some places, the original game does the same thing. Sometimes he has a redish pink tone, others he's blue from top to bottom. If you have Desh in your group still, could yo do a screenshot?

If it's the usual thing, it changes depending on the "npc" palettes stored for each area.

About the Big Rat... I went to that part, and after pondering for a bit I think you're totally right.
It's too damn good of a mage to be actually enjoyable as a boss, too soon.

The best part is that the damn thing doesn't have that much int to begin with, lol.

I shall edit his spells for the next release, which will have small changes in usability groups for weapons and armor, and another patch that will let some classes have a small spell list, for example giving Knight some white spells, or Scholar a selection of White and Black, giving more freedom for creating your party (I hope I haven't gone too far). It will also buff Spirit and Int of those classes to make the spells that use such stats more useful for them.

Thank you for your input!


For the classes, you should use what you want to. Sometimes the game tries to point you to a class you "need", but you can, and should, play with whatever makes you happy, although as you progress you will get "better" jobs (like, more interesting front line warriors to change your Fighter, which is as basic as he can be).

Sticking to a few classes will also increase your skill level, making them better too, so changing a lot is not very recommended unless you know what you're doing. And it would also make you farm a lot of capacity points, now that I think about it.

May 29, 2015, 06:31:10 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Ok, I'm almost finished with the "small" update i'm doing.

I fixed the Big Rat problem, now it will cast Fire Ice and Bolt, instead of Fire2, Ice2, and Bolt2, which are less powerful and only attack one character.

I also fixed an oversight with the dark sword Ashura, where everybody but the M. Knight could equip it. I also modified a few weapons to been able to use by more classes. The same can be said for armors, now for example Thief and Hunter have a few more options for early game as I was able to create custom groups so I didn't have to choose to sacrifice a class for another with pre-made groups.

I finished the "Magic Expansion" patch, which will give magic capabilities to classes that usually don't have any, and modifies some spells,stats, and commands. And a little text if you want.

I don't know if I should merge it with the other magic patch, as it changes more than one thing and it makes a big difference compared to the other patches. For now is it's own separated patch, containing all the changes to make it work, and it has it's own Readme.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: magictrufflez on May 30, 2015, 01:00:57 pm
To start with, I'm playing without your most recent changes, but I've gotten well past losing Desh, so I can't provide screenshots.  However, what you said about the original game having Desh makes me think this has something to do with the original ROM and not your patches.  I'm currently just after getting the Water Crystal jobs, and I'm farming some money to upgrade my equips.

I've only run into 1 other encounter so far that's on the level of the Big Mouse one I pointed out earlier---the Kraken fight was even worse in the Water Cave.  I don't know what its stats are, but the first time I fought it, it cast Fire 2 round 1....and hit everyone for ~500 damage!  The second round saw Ice 2, and finished everyone off, just like the Mouse encounter--and also like that encounter, I only got past it by being really lucky and one time through Kraken didn't cast any spells.  I'm not sure how you could go about rebalancing this fight, but maybe reducing Kraken's stats might work?  I think the spells are pretty appropriate for this part, but almost 1-shotting my whole party (lvl 18 Knight/Hunter/Blk/Wht Wiz) seems a bit much

Also along the lines of rebalancing, black magic is getting a bit ridiculous, and I think it's because of the way you redid the skill bonus.  If I remember the readme correctly, you made the skill level multiplier (Sk lvl / 8)--Considering how skill levels are earned, maybe something like (Sk lvl / 10), (Sk lvl /12), or even (Sk lvl / 15) might be more appropriate.  I've done pretty minimal farming so far, although I have fought ~90% of the random encounters, but Ice 3 and all the 2 spells are just annihilating everything in my path right now, even with the moarHP patch.  I'm not sure if you addressed any of this in your recent changes, but it's something that's gotten a bit out of hand in my playthrough.

Something I'm also keeping my eye on is the massive damage increase when I changed my knight into a viking.  I doubled up on boomerangs, and good god my damage output has over doubled from my 2-sword knight!  My thief is also hitting pretty heavy too, with an over 50% increase in damage from my Hunter with 2 Boomerangs.  I'm going to keep an eye on the damage progression as I raise my skill ranks, but I'm not so sure all the stat increases for equipment (especially strength bonuses) were necessary, especially when my main melee fighters have started 1-shotting enemies when they too 2-3 hits on regular enemies before.  Again, all of this is with the moarHP patch

Sorry this was a bit long, but the power balancing seems a bit off---so I hope this helps!  I'll keep letting you know if I bump into anything that seems odd
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on May 30, 2015, 03:07:44 pm
At what level did you fight Kraken? I need to know so I can see what kind of changes I need to make.

For now I think i'll have to go and directly nerf Fire2/Ice2/Bolt2, although I don't remember having serious problems with Kraken and I've played that fight several times...

Did you have problems with Hyne? Because he uses those spells too...

About the black magic part, I guess I could downgrade it to Skill/16 (it can only go 8/16/32 and like that), but doing so will make black and white magic much, much less rewarding (the formula is very harsh) and i really don't want to approach it this way.

I despise this way even more if I think about my new patch that adds magic to more classes. If it reduces the mages strong point to a somewhat mediocre one, imagine what the other classes will end up with...

On the other hand, I was thinking of lowering spell damage instead of changing the skill part, (something i've been thinking since the Big Rat thing), and I admit the damage is quite high, but is in my interest to make magic powerful, after all, you have limited uses for spells, they should feel worth using (And more powerful than normal attacks, as they don't waste anything) and the point of my hack initially, and my first idea was to improve how awfully weak and useless magic was before.

Although a point in my favor about being hit hard with magic is that you're most probably using weak defensive equipment from the floating continent.

When you go outside of the floating continent, there is a big change in weapons and armor, I recommend you go to, for example, to Dastar/Duster and try to get yourself some new gear and see if there are any differences, as the equipment you get after the third crystal is a much needed improvement.

About the weapon part, the boomerang type weapon have been nerfed (The first one, from 85 Attack to 65, the second one from 115 to 95). That's another case of me trying to make something useful and going a little too far, even if I nerfed the second one from the beginning (seriously, 160 Attack for the Moonring Blade is total overkill, my god).

About the stat increases, they are actually very small things, besides Int/Spirit (For a bigger multiplier) or Agi (For a bigger number of hits), but even then you need quite a few of them to make any difference (And with magic you may not even see real changes because of how damage fluctuates).

Things like +5 Str or Vit doesn't add that much difference either. They are just small bonuses (Strength is divided by 2, so +5 Strentgh is just +2 attack, the same with Defense), and the game lacks other type of extras besides Fire/Bolt/Ice up, but I can look into it again now that I added magic to some classes, or even try to see what effects do Fire/Bolt/Ice up have on defensive gear.

About one-shotting normal enemies... That's something that happened with the vanilla game too... If you look at a guide where it shows monster's HP, you'll see is INCREDIBLY LOW, even in the final parts of the game.  You're lucky some enemies have more than 1000 HP...

You also should be seeing an improvement in HP not too long after the Kraken fight, as after that even you'll have a bunch of places to explore that weren't accessible before and is at that point when you start seeing more resistent monsters.

If I added them just after leave the floating contintent, it would have been a little harsh.

I also seriously planned (and in fact I have a half done patch about this) to give far more HP than I the Moar HP has already, high enough to make the characters feel powerful without finishing the battle in one turn or two, but then i thought (And I was pointed by a couple of friends that were playing it with me to see opinions) that making random encounters too long would be even worse than making them short, and I ended up agreeing with him, as  longer fights seem to be like a terrible thing worse than Hitler for a lot people...

I guess I need to find the sweet spot. The thing is, if I remember right, you didn't play this before, it's hard to point comparisons with the original game. In the original you could still kill anything without much effort, but at the same time you felt underpowered as hell if you weren't using the overused tactics that you see in almost every guide or video.


Thanks for the feedback. I'll wait to see what you say before I make any "serious" change.

Edit: I made a couple of "fast" patches if you want to try with different settings for the magic, alongisde the changes for the boomerangs:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kl2l2jqedtc1qgr/SemiHotFix.rar?dl=0

I personally would go with a combination of "Spell power nerf, Skill 8.ips" and an upgrade to monsters endurance.

You can ignore this if you don't feel like trying.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: magictrufflez on May 31, 2015, 01:01:14 am
I probably should've guessed the "powers of 2" rule for the skill level advancement--in that case, I think you're right and changing spellpower might be the better route.  Then again, I don't know how the rest of the calculations work---which also probably acounts for my (lack of) understanding about the stat boost effects

I was about Lvl 18 for everyone when I fought Kraken.  Hyne was difficult, but his spells were hitting for ~200 damage, which was much more reasonable, while still being difficult.  This is why I was so surprised when Kraken pretty much wiped me out.  I only brought it up because there aren't any opportunities to get "next level" equipment after defeating Hyne, since 90% of the world is underwater.  I guess the only thing I could've done differently was change classes and use carpace armor, but if I estimated the damage conversions right, I would've probably still been close to 1-shotted anyway.

I guess my complaining is just a result of not understanding the complete damage formula for magic, but something was definitely very different between Kraken and Hyne!  I'll keep plowing forward, as I think I found my party setup for awhile---I'm enjoying parts of the game, but some parts are just kind of meh for me (the plot so far seems kind of weak to me).  I think your patch has made the experience much more enjoyable so far however, and I'll let you know if any more "out-of-place" difficulty jumps pop out for me
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on May 31, 2015, 03:23:45 am
Don't worry too much about not knowing how it works, it's only natural, it's your first time! I wasn't expecting it.

Now I know why the difference in Kraken between me and you, I was around level 22/23 each time I went to fight him.
The monsters in that cave give decent exp so I usually spend 20 minutes "training", as you can heal yourself in the temple near the cave.

I'll take a look at Kraken's Int and skill, maybe nerfing his stats is a good way to go about this because probably more people would go directly to him instead of leveling up a little.

About bosses, what do you think about their HP as for now? Are they okay?

The game's plot is very thin, a little more involved than in the first game (And makes a little more sense, lol), but a lot less than Final Fantasy II, or IV on the Super Nintendo, games that came before and after it.

I personally don't mind, because I usually see Rpg's in two flavors, the ones that you play for story, and the ones you play for gameplay itself, and this one is for me in the latter group.

It's nice if you find a game that do both, thing is if you expect both in every game you'll be pretty disappointed very often. At least is the way I see it of course...

And please, if you want keep giving feedback, go right ahead.

EDIT - Okay, this is a little ridiculous: Hyne's skill is 99, and Kraken's is 60. Hyne's Int is 85, Kraken's, 105.

There shouldn't be that much difference. I'll lower Kraken's int to 85 too. The only other factor that may provoke this is Kraken's level, I'll drop it too.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: STARWIN on May 31, 2015, 01:13:00 pm
It sounds to me that the bosses that were dangerous in the original game still are. If I remember correctly, those were
Spoiler:
Big Rat, Kraken, Garuda
and a bunch of nasty endgame bosses.

Technically, of course, you aren't limited to /8 /16 and such, but it is an easy change. Anything else requires either finding free space from the ROM (it has barely any space that is obviously free) or being lucky and doing a certain trick (which requires reading code for a suitable calculation that already happens to exist somewhere). But if you can balance the other numbers (INT,SPI,opponent SKILL,opponent LV,spell power) well, the easy change is sufficient. The only potential issue is that summon magic now gets a massive boost as skill goes up (as the original had such a powerful formula to begin with, and you are editing the weakest part of it to much stronger).

What do you think about Capacity points? Does that mechanic serve any purpose or is it possibly harmful, even?
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on May 31, 2015, 01:53:37 pm
There are several bosses that are pretty intimdating, most of them because of their magic spells.

About the summon magic, certainly is more powerful and it will always be more powerful (Unless you directly put the spell power to 0, and even the it stays quite strong); and as it gets more skill level the higher it gets.

Although to be fair, it starts very weak until you get a good skill level.

It's something that bugs me quite a bit, and I would like to make summon use the same formula as normal magic, because square intentionally made "normal" magic bad on purpose both with the formula and the insintence of making spells divide it's damage by the number of targets, which baffles me to no end, dividing bad damage between monsters is just even a bigger waste of time. And healing magic is really underwhelming originally.

That's why magictrufflez sees magic so strong: I tried to put it at the same level, more or less.

Summon should be a little more powerful because, for one part, using it with a conjurer/evoker is random and the payoff should be bigger when it works, and because both summoners and evokers only have one spell per level instead of three, and less MP, but one thing is having  more damage and the other is becoming the only good spell caster worth a damn in the original game...

On the other hand, under normal conditions, you usually don't need to be more than, let's say, level 55 tops to beat my hack (And that's counting you're grinding quite a bit, as I've been able to beat it with lvl 44 characters, not even using the most powerful classes), so summoning magic won't be broken in most playthroughs unless you decide to grind skill up to 99, but where is the point (or fun) in that...

It's when you go up to very high character and skill levels when damage skyrockets in this game, and because the game is not really made for such high levels, most of the changes I made were thinking around the 40ish - 60ish level mark.

Ahem... Sorry for the rant.

Capacity points are not terribly bad. I neved had that many problems with that feature, it ends up filling up to the maximum (255) and staying like that before I even notice, although some changes (Depending how big the differences between your actual class and your new class are) ask for a lot of capacity points...

I find the feature for the DS/Ios/others version far worse, where your character gets gimped for a number of fights with his/her stats reduced until you fight enough battles, and it creates this weird "tradition" of going to early game areas just to change classes and make fast fights to make it less time consuming, and that's when you can, as sometimes you're unable to go back during some parts.

Not a very good idea...
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: magictrufflez on June 02, 2015, 01:29:25 am
I've gotten to the Ancient Ruins, with little/no problems now.  Although, I have been taking serious advantage of your improvements to the steal function (Protect Rings for all and Duel Triton Hammers/Dual Orichalcons before entering Salonia!)--im currently lvl 24/25 for everyone.  I saw Garuda was mentioned as being a more brutal boss, but I won't lie, nothing he threw at me hit nearly as hard as Kraken.  The spells he used hit me for ~500/600 damage, so he was difficult, but extremely fightable.

1 beef I really have with this game is the abundunce of dungeons that rely on my characters being minied.  I'm not sure if there's some special tactic I'm supposed to use in them, but I know I find them incredibly cheap.  I know you can't do much about it, but I needed to vent a bit, since I thought they were only an early game gimmick :(.

I have no idea if this is doable at all, but is it possible to set different jobs to acquire skill multipliers at different rates?  Like, the White Wiz might get one every 8 levels, but the hunter only gets one every 10?  or something like that?  I think if you can change how the multipliers accumulate between classes, it may solve the problem of how to weaken pure magic-users while still keeping the hybrid magic users viable.  Again, I'm not sure how the coding works, so I don't know if this is a possible fix or not

EDIT:  Oh, and I don't mind giving any input at all---I mean, I'm playing through the game aren't I?  You're the one who's doing all the hard work here lol
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on June 02, 2015, 12:06:55 pm
I'm happy to see that at least I didn't make Garuda some kind of brutal insult to the player, lol.

If you want some trivia, I made him f****** powerful by error and when I tested him you would see 9999 flying everywhere. I really didn't know what happened, until I discovered that the Monster Editor that you can download here is bugged, and it gives SUPER STATS to some monsters, Garuda being one of them.

I had to make every change for monsters with the hex editor (just like everything else, lol) because of that. Thank god they are easy to read.

Wait, you just went to Ancient Ruins before Salonia?!

You're supposed to go there some time after going to Salonia, although there's nothing wrong with risking to go there and get some equipment (Quite a few rpgs do that).

I'm happy to see that stealing is useful now, if you look at a guide, you'll see how underused it was :(.

What I don't know it's if I should change some items to appear at a later time (Those Triton Hammers are the most powerful weapon in the game, even if only Vikings are able to equip them).

What i'm sure is that if anyone spends some of his/her time trying to get equipment from monsters it will be rewarding as pretty much all of it is some of the best things in the game. Thing is that in the orignal game you get it so late that you usually don't enjoy it that much.

By the way, how is the enemy drop working? Was the HP boost after the Circle cave enough?

About the Mini dungeons, sometimes you need to stay mini, but you should try after going through the small doors/holes to go back to your original size, sometimes Mini is only needed to pass such hole/door, and you can continue with your normal size.
I got a little mad when I discovered that.

The thing with Mini is that you should use magic heavily to clear these places easier. That's one of the reasons I made the "Magic Expansion" Patch! Some classes get offensive spells, that, even when they are limited, you can support your main magic offensive character (if you have one) with your other character's spells.

For example the Hunter/Ranger has Ice1/2/3 which can come in handy for such places. It won't be as strong as a mage, but for the Mini Dungeons and places like those it works.

About the magic multiplier, maybe is doable but would take A LOT of work and someone that has true hacking skills.

As the game is right now, EVERYTHING uses those formulas. It's a bunch of numbers the game takes advantage of for different effects. The same happens with the physical hit multiplier. Characters, monsters, bosses... All use that too.

The only thing I can think of is changing the part of the formula that affects summon magic only, to make it similar to the normal magic, but I don't know how it works or where it's stored exactly.

But again, that's all me bitching from the vanilla game. In my hack normal magic and summon are much less separated in the damage cap, giving more damage to Summon without being so god damn broken.

At lvl 45, with both Warlock and Summoner jobs at 34 skill with their most powerful area spell :

Warlock does 2600/3600 with Meteor He does less damage, but he has more MP so he last far longer
Summoner does 3600/4600 with Bahamut He does more damage, but he has less MP so he should be used for hard fightes/bosses

At level 99/99 Warlock would do around 6500/8600 (Or 9000 if you're really lucky with the RNG) and Summoner clean 9999. But i don't think anyone would need to level up to 99 to beat this... In fact I don't know how long it would take.

If it needs some kind of rebalancing it could be enough changing spell power. Thing is that not only characters will suffer that change, but monsters and bosses will too (And some of them use summon-based attacks).

Lastly, I  may be the one making this, and while it was something I started doing for my own use, I still like to see what others think about it.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: magictrufflez on June 05, 2015, 03:58:50 am
I made it to roughly endgame yesterday (did a Eureka run to get the last classes and some equips/spells), so I'm about to settle in to power level a bit, because I'm getting beat up a bit too much.  Party is currently level 43.

One question I still have is regarding the Dark Swords.  They're listed as having the "dark element" in the readme, but is this an actual element in-game like Fire and Bolt, or does this just mean they kill "split" enemies easily?  I'm curious because I'm debating whether to duel Holy Lances or Masamunes with my ninjas endgame, but I have a feeling Holy would be a more useful element than Darkness to take into the final dungeons.  Unless Ninjas kind of stink as I level them, and maybe I'll go to a Dragoon/MKnight setup instead.

Gameplay balance has been pretty even for awhile now.  I've personally tried to steal/farm high end equips when they become available, and no encounters have 1-shot me since Kraken.  Although I haven't been using most of the classes you tweaked (I've been pretty consistently using 2 physical and 2 magic-based characters), the moarHP patch has seemed like the right amount of balance for most regular enemies, but bosses seem to be made of glass most of the time.  With the exception of Bahamut, which I admittedly fought at a higher level than I think most players do, most bosses are not lasting very long.  Since many don't hit back hard enough at this point, even Leviathan was a bit of a joke.  Regular encounters are acually pretty well balanced, and the last few dugeons have actually felt like final dungeons as far as the encounters go.

Outside of the general easiness of bosses since Kraken, some thoughts for any future changes you may want to make (although please take my lack of knowledge as to how the coding works into account):

--As far as class balancing, now that I've seen the initial Ninja/Sage classes, I think you've done a pretty good job with the ones I've played so far.  That said, the game is set up in a way that a player like me (who tends to go for straight damage optimization) will always pick out a 2-fighter (1 dedicated hitter and 1 variable, depending on the situation), 2 mage (Black and White--Summoning seems way too variable until you get a summoner, and by then I was pretty invested in Black magic, which is far more versatile).  There really wasn't much reason for me to swap classes a lot unless I just got a new stronger version of the roles I had been using, or a dungeon required me to use one (Cave of Darkness).  Maybe if there was some way to require advanced classes to have a skill level in previous ones before changing to them, that could aleviate this, but I'm not sure if that's possible in the coding.

--Stealing is amazingly useful post-Water Cave, but I kind of feel like equipment access might be a bit of an issue from an overpowering perspective, especially late game.  On the Floating Continent, it seemed like I was underequiped, but I've felt pretty overpowered equipment-wise since the Water Cave.  Part of this is because of the access to weapons I have no business getting (Triton hammers, Orichalcons, or later Masamunes/Holy Lances/Excaliburs).  Maybe by re-jigging some of the steal lists in combination with some of the shops could alleviate this.  Especially since it feel kind of ridiculous to have multiple copies of Legendary equipment like the Masamune lol.  I'm not sure if there are only a set number of stealing sets you can give to monster groups in the code, but it could be worthwhile to put some stealable equips (lower end of course) in earlier dungeons, and tone down the rarity of some of the equips stolen on later mobs.  Obviously adjusting shop lists can help too (Letting me buy Triton Hammers seems a bit nuts)---I'm not sure if it's feasible to add new equipment as well, but it might be something to consider.

Not really much else has stood out as needing some level of improvement--dungeons are pretty much a heavy grind after you get your airship back, so you probably don't need to change much as far as regular enemies.  The moarHP patch seems to hit the sweet spot in this respect, and the drop rates are pretty reasonable as far as I can tell---just maybe some tweaks to what equipment you can access at certain points might improve some of the unnerving inventory moments I've had (I have 5 Holy Lances and ~5 Masamunes right now lol), and make those special pieces of equipment a bit more meaningful.  I'm going to try and run the standard 2 Ninja, 2 Sage party for engame (Ninjas might change, Sages are definitely staying, with all their MPs and optimized spell lists), but I need to build some skill levels and character levels first before that last march starts...
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on June 05, 2015, 05:26:27 am
I'll put things in spoilers to keep it less MASSIVE TEXT WALL

Dark Element-

Spoiler:
Dark Element is just like Fire, Ice, Holy... The thing is that not many enemies are resistant or weak to elements in this game.

Dark Element does have an advantage over "splitting" enemies because, for one part, they are coded to be weak to Dark, and two, because as weapons are coded, if they have an usability group AND Dark Element at the same time, they become strong against those enemies and they don't divide.

It's a weird way to go about it but it works, lol. About what you want to use, both would do okay, if I recall correctly.

But that's one change I'm been thinking, as the original game doesn't make much sense about weaknesses and resistances.

Steal input
Spoiler:
The stealable equipment is something I thought about quite a bit too, since I discovered how to do it. My intention was for giving access to them before it was too late, as usually in the game you get those weapons at the very last moment.

I agree that I need to look into it and see which enemies may have what. About adding low-level equipment in the floating continent... It's something I thought, and I really want to do it, but the space for everything is really, really small.

You only have a handful of groups for ALL THE MONSTERS, and you give a group to each one, so it's tricky. I need to take care about how I do it.

The Triton Hammer in the shop is something that happens in the original game. But in the original game it was LAME, so... Yeah, I need to change some things. I also wanted to change the price of some equipment, like the Bio Spell, which is 10.000 to something more as his power is too big for such ammount of Gil.

Changing Classes
Spoiler:
About the classes, FF3 is not really a game where you should change classes often, unless you want to, of course, it's more of a "Choose what you want and keep developing their skills to see them shine, but you can change if you don't feel okay with that party setup".

My hack was made with the attempt of making all classes good enough to play through the entire thing.
I made playthroughs with Warlock/M.Knight/Viking/Shaman, and others with, for example, Bard/Hunter/Geomancer/Shaman, and those classes are supposed to be terrible in the vanilla game (Well, if you're following a guide, the writer may say directly "Avoid everything that is not Ninja/Sage", but in my hack all classes are viable and Ninja/Sage are nerfed in some regards).

You just use whatever you want. Classes are for giving a choice, not to force you to use something in particular (Except in a couple of moments...) or forcing you to keep changing. There's also the fact that for future playthroughs (For those that want to, of course) you can go with a different party and get a different experience.

About Black Magic veing more versatile... Well, that's the idea, as Summoning is about raw power if you use a Summoner, or a weird mix of raw power and buffing if you use an Evoker.

About putting a skill level needed, there is no such feature for that in the game, only for Base Level. And adding a "You need X Skill level for Y Job" seems like forcing grinding to the players, which I'm not very interested with... At least not in this game, of course.

About Monsters
Spoiler:
I'm happy to see that normal battles are okay, those are actually the hardest to think for me.

About bosses, i'm with you, they need more HP and power, and I always felt like that.
But I didn't want to go overboard without someone trying before, because then, "Kraken/BigRat may happen again".

I think the point where I should start is after Kraken, and improve the bosses after him.
Do you remember which ones felt more and less "weak"? To give me an idea of what would be the best spot.

I'll wait to see what you say about the last bosses and roll with the input you give me in this regard.


Thank you for all the info. All this will help me to develop a 1.2 Version.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: magictrufflez on June 09, 2015, 03:02:55 am
After plowing through some powerleveling this weekend, I finished off the game today.  I don't have a lot of substantive suggestions about endgame, because outside the stuff I said about being able to farm (supposedly) legendary equipment, I don't have much beef with how the final areas played.  Everything felt like a final dungeon, the bosses still felt like they died faster than they should, but that may have been because I made sure to set my party up for maximum damage output.  My party was ~lvl 55 with skill levels in the 30-mid 40's---Ninja, MKnight, 2 Sages.

Outside of what I've already said, I do have 1 last suggestion for a tweak.  I liked the idea of running causing your characters defense to drop, and early on, this drop to 0 defense wasn't a very big deal.  However, as the game progresses, the punishment for trying to run grew exponentially excessive, to the point where if you ran into a mob of 4-6 enemies, just 1 round of trying to run would wipe out the whole party.

There's also something I don't think you intended where if less than 4 characters are trying to run, ALL characters have their defense drop to 0.  For example, at one point I had a party of Vik/Thief/Blk/Whtmgm, and tried running with just my thief from a battle with ~6 enemies in the Ancient Ruins, having the others do other things (I also assumed the Thief's "Escape" command gave me a guaranteed chance to run).  Unfortunately, everyone's defense was dropped, not just my thief's, and I proceeded to take a total pounding while my thief promptly failed to run.  After about 2-3 rounds of that, I was pretty much dead.  Needless to say, I stopped running from anything after this.

My thought is maybe to have the defense drop be something like half or 1/3 if you can do it.  This way running lategame is still somewhat useful, especially in some parts of the final dungeons where encounters are more brutal and the floors are pretty lengthy (the Ancient Ruins is also a great example of a place that could use a consistent run mechanic, as you don't have access to Dark Swords, but encounter a ton of "split" enemies).  Giving 1 class a dedicated 100% run command could be really helpful too--IMO Bard would be great for this if you could swing it.

Overall, I liked what you did with the hack (although FF3NES is not going to break the top half of my personal FF rankings itself).  There were some unintended consequences of changes you made, but I think with a few more tweaks, especially regarding equipment access and the run mechanic, this would definitely be my definitive mod for this game.  I liked the idea you put out about making more use of the elemental strengths/weaknesses---it could be a great way to balance out some of the more powerful classes (ie Vikings have heavy hitting power, but their weapons all have elemental properties, something like that)

I'm definitely giving it a positive review--now if we can just get someone to rewrite the plot, so I can enjoy that too lol

/endtextwall
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on June 09, 2015, 04:01:49 am
I'll give the last bosses a little more HP too, then, as in my playthroughs with levels 40/45 I felt they were a little short too (although some of them rather brutal with the difference in HP compared to your level 55, lol).

It happened with most bosses really.

Well I... didn't touch the running. That's how the vanilla game works...
Sometimes is a big hassle or a direct Game Over, but that one is on Squaresoft, lol.

That's why is something I managed to change! I wanted to keep it as a small surprise, but I guess it's okay.
Right now I made it so you don't lose defense as you try to run, I still have to see if I apply some reduction, or if I leave it like that. I need to experiment more with it.

Thief has Escape, which is supposed to be a 100% run success, maybe I could squeeze the command to another class (Depending if I can remove another command without problems). As you say Bard would work well, even more if you think about Edward from IV... That spoony bard, what fame he gave to the class!

Thanks to all your input I will be making changes to the different parts we're been talking about and develop a 1.2 version.
Some changes like stealable items will take a little longer to decide where to put them, or if I should remove some of them.

Something I really don't want to do is give stealable equipment to bosses, because it would force players to have a thief and they may don't want to, so it's a little tricker to think about. Maybe emporwering monsters that have better equipment (like the Behemoths, more or less)... I'll see.

I'll ad you to the credits for all the time you put into giving feedback.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: magictrufflez on June 09, 2015, 08:45:33 am
Oh--sorry about complaining about the running then.  I thought I saw in the readme that was how you changed it, but I probably misread it, sorry

I'm definitely with you on no boss steals for a number of reasons.  I'm not sure how the steal groupings look, but maybe give good steals to rarer encounters throughout rather than clumped towards the end?  Kind of like if there's a monster that only shows up in a certain room in a dungeon, that one has useful steals for that point in the game.  Something like that could balance the steals as well as equipment access while not necessarily forcing players to use the thief class consistently

As to giving me credit, don't even worry about it unless you really want to--All I did was play a video game and give some feedback.  Not like I was writing a research paper for you or anything lol.  Real life is probably going to prevent me from playing through new hacks soon anyways, so this was a good place for me to stop for a bit!  Glad I could help!
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on June 09, 2015, 11:55:00 am
Yeah, I mentioned the running thing in the readme, because how much it can hurt the player.
I have to see if I screwed up the sentence then, lol.  And even then, that's an issue that will disappear soon!

I have to take a look at enemy groups and what I can do about the steal part. If I can find  the rarest monsters in each part I may find a better balance. But the number of groups for stealing is very tiny and the monster too many... Nah, I'll see how I do.

About credits, you could have just played without saying anything, so at the very least you deserve a  thank you, lol.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: disjaukifa on November 28, 2015, 08:45:28 pm
Yeah, I mentioned the running thing in the readme, because how much it can hurt the player.
I have to see if I screwed up the sentence then, lol.  And even then, that's an issue that will disappear soon!

I have to take a look at enemy groups and what I can do about the steal part. If I can find  the rarest monsters in each part I may find a better balance. But the number of groups for stealing is very tiny and the monster too many... Nah, I'll see how I do.

About credits, you could have just played without saying anything, so at the very least you deserve a  thank you, lol.

Quick question for you, can you release a rom hack just for the run mod for pressing b?
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on December 01, 2015, 09:44:21 am
Quick answer: This mod doesn't change the B button for run. That's something i've never added to it.

Long answer: The "running" that was brought up in this thread was  about running away from battles, as in the vanilla game it cuts your defense and evasion to 0, making you a sitting duck of fail. In the most recent patch (1.2, released a few days ago) I added a patch that doesn't cut your defense to make it less risky.

Now, if you want a B button for running around, you can use the expanded translation by ad0220, as it adds such feature.

http://www.romhacking.net/translations/1590/

There's also another way to increase the movement speed: Changing the $7CDE0 value. But it's pretty buggy and should be changed with precaution, as it can screw the game easily.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Kea on December 06, 2015, 03:38:21 am
Long answer: The "running" that was brought up in this thread was  about running away from battles, as in the vanilla game it cuts your defense and evasion to 0, making you a sitting duck of fail. In the most recent patch (1.2, released a few days ago) I added a patch that doesn't cut your defense to make it less risky.

Wow, that's a very useful patch! Half defence makes much more sense than just zero. I'm curious, how were you able to find the code that handles reducing defence while fleeing?
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on December 07, 2015, 01:22:03 pm
By total and stupid luck, (I've found quite a few things thanks to that in my hacking attempts, actually), as i'm horrible with more technical stuff.
While trying to make sense of the debugger in  Fceux some time ago, I was playing around with it and the game genie encoder while fighting when i saw these adresses:

8395:E6 74
8397:E6 52

By changing E6 for other value you can modify the defense (8395) and evasion (8397). I don't know how it works exactly (again, i'm horrible), but lowering to something like C6, B6 or A6 makes it so you don't lose defense or evasion. Seems you can't really choose what percent of defense you lose, it's just 0% or 100%, at least as far as I know with my insufficient skills. Changing it to D6 for example has no effect.

I didn't touch that again until recently, when I rememberd that STARWIN could look the Magic Multiplier in the rom, so I tried to look through the rom with a hex editor, and the offset is 683A5-683A8. E6 74 E6 52. I should have done it before, I know.

As you lose both entirely, what I decided was to mantain defense while losing evasion.

It makes some sort of sense as you're still wearing armor while you try to run away, but because the characters should be focused in running they don't pay attention to the enemies. Gameplay wise, You'll still be hit and more often at that, but at least damage will be partially reduced thanks to your defense.

I always found ridiculous how in a new game, goblins can cause you around 2/6 points of damage normally, but the moment you try to run away, those 2/6 transform into 2x/3x, sometimes even 4x points of damage pretty much killing you in one hit.

And that's just goblins. Add the fact that it's prone to fail, and you have get one big problem and a possible Game Over button if you don't know it beforehand.


Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Kea on December 07, 2015, 06:22:02 pm
While trying to make sense of the debugger in  Fceux some time ago, I was playing around with it and the game genie encoder while fighting when i saw these adresses:

8395:E6 74
8397:E6 52

By changing E6 for other value you can modify the defense (8395) and evasion (8397). I don't know how it works exactly (again, i'm horrible), but lowering to something like C6, B6 or A6 makes it so you don't lose defense or evasion. Seems you can't really choose what percent of defense you lose, it's just 0% or 100%, at least as far as I know with my insufficient skills. Changing it to D6 for example has no effect.

Okay, I took a look at the code in that area, and figured out what it does. The section you found is responsible for setting the "party is running" flag in RAM. It checks the command being issued by each member of the party,  counts how many are using Run (0x6) or Escape (0x7), and stores that count to RAM. Later at $61F17 the game sets a flag if that count was at least one. One thing you could do here would be to make Escape not count as running for the purposes of making you defenceless.

Anyway, $6207B is where attack and defence changes from running are handled. If the party is running, an attacking monster gains double Attack and the target has zero Defence. I haven't found the code that zeroes out your Evade multiplier yet though. Anyway, here are some changes you can make:

$6207F: Write E6 to disable double Attack power
$62085: Write 46 26 to halve Defence instead of reducing to zero, write E6 26 to make no change to Defence while running
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on December 08, 2015, 06:28:32 am
Oh wow, that's amazing!  Great finding!

It explains why it was 0% or 100%... It hadn't anything to do with defense itself.
I'll take all this information and re-do that patch when I have some free time to tinker with it! It shouldn't take long (Although I have to test it before anything).

Thank you so much!
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Kea on December 08, 2015, 07:36:31 pm
Glad to hear it!

Another thing I discovered is that the Magic Power byte in monster ROM data is not simply copied for Intelligence and Spirit. Instead, the top half of the byte is used for Spirit and the bottom half is used for Intelligence. Because each half can only come to 0x0F (15) by itself, these values are multiplied by six to give the actual Int/Spi values.

As an example, take a monster with a Magic Power byte of 0xC2. It's Spirit will be (12*6) = 72, and its Intelligence will be (2*6) = 12. You can see how, if you aren't aware of the system, this can give monsters whose spell damage is much lower than anticipated.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Maeson on December 10, 2015, 03:43:53 am
This would explain why I had so much problem with enemies like Kraken or Xande while trying to make their new magic spells "not 1HKO all the time" back then, and I had to tinker with both "magic power" and their job level. I had a feeling that it wasnt just a single number, but I couldn't figure it out.

So that means monsters can have a maximum of 90 Int or Spirit...

Really nice findings! Nice indeed.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: joe73ffdq on December 10, 2015, 12:48:35 pm
After a few years now of attempting rom hacking, I have noticed that individual nybbles are used a few times. The INT/SPR function here in FFIII, and in a few places in DW2. All level ups are 2 bytes, 4 nybbles for str/agi/hp/mp. No one had concluded this on the DW2 board, but it is right in front of the initial starting stats, which are 4 bytes per character. There are certain patterns to look for, depending on what type of data youre trying to find.

I have learned to look at each nybble all the time now. Another example is with enemies in FF1. One nybble for status effect, and the other for the %. This means that (poison) for example, has x/16 chance to succeed, and the other nybble is for the status effect itself, limited to a choice of 4 out of the 8 status effects.

I have overlooked things a lot through trial and error, and now I usually find the data I want. Not just by persistence, but by thinking outside the box.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: Reiska on January 04, 2016, 03:57:25 pm
So I'm running into a weird issue with ad0220's translation while I'm playing your hack, and seeing as you based your Spanish translation on it, I figured maybe you might have an inkling of what's going on, Maeson.

For some reason, the game's completely failing to load any encounters, including the boss, in Gutsco's dungeon.  This happens in both ad0220's English translation and your Spanish one, and I'm not sure why. o-o

I don't remember running into this bug before, so I'm wondering if the emulator I'm using (FCEUX 2.2.2) is causing it. >_>
Title: Re: Final Fantasy III Maeson Mix (Famicom)
Post by: A.D.R.I.A.N on February 03, 2016, 06:35:31 pm
Hey Maeson, your hack is amazing!
But i have an issue with magic expansion. You see, after i applied it, my characters began with spells that could not be obtained and used right at the beginning.
I could sell them all minus the Toad spell, since i can't literally sell it, ocupying one of my item slots, which can be problematic if you have too many items and refuse to trash them.
Still good hack, it makes the game more enjoyable  :).
Here's a pic of what i mean:
(http://www.romhacking.net/scratchpad/1973/)