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Romhacking => Personal Projects => Topic started by: granz on October 04, 2012, 12:49:56 pm

Title: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: granz on October 04, 2012, 12:49:56 pm
I'm actively working on a re-translation of SaGa 3, or "Final Fantasy Legend III" abroad. When the game was localized, a number of changes were made to the script, character names, enemy graphics and menu layouts. The scope of this project is to give players a "full" experience by providing an English version of the original Japanese ROM.

Specific differences between the two versions include:

 - Changes to enemy graphics. (two of which are pictured below) The reasons for these changes may have been mild censorship on behalf of some of the more frightening foes. The drummer was possibly changed because it's a reference to a Japanese advertising mascot, and simply wouldn't be understood by Western audiences.

 - Multiple columns in the item and magic inventories. Obviously, these were changed to fit more characters in item and magic strings. In the Japanese version, item strings are limited to 7 characters, (6 for potions) and 4 for magic spells. The magic inventory (not pictured) has three columns, and each row is numbered. It's very similar to the magic inventory in Final Fantasy I, where magic existed in various levels of power. In the English version, there's only one column, and there game disregards any notion of magic levels.

 - In the Japanese version, the inventory allowed the party to hold 9 (or is it 8 ?) instances of most items, but 99 instances of potions. In the English version, the 9 (or 8 ) restriction applies to every single item.

 - Many of the character names were changed. "Arthur" is actually named "Dune," for instance. A lot of the characters have French given names, or names based on French words. This was probably changed because the references weren't very familiar to Western audiences at the time.

Screenshots of progress so far: (plus a couple of random game play shots)

(http://i.imgur.com/jbrLO.png) (http://i.imgur.com/r3FED.png) (http://i.imgur.com/W98PS.png) (http://i.imgur.com/TC2M2.png) (http://i.imgur.com/Ze8HW.png) (http://i.imgur.com/INNrl.png) (http://i.imgur.com/m03nI.png)

Things to do:

 - Need to expand the character limit on some strings. This might require reworking entire menus. DONE

 - Find the rest of the dialog. It looks like it might be compressed. I've never worked with anything like that, so I'm not sure what sort of logic is involved. I did post a help-wanted ad earlier. Maybe someone who is familiar with compression or GB ASM can lend their expertise. DONE

 - Finish translating and inserting the remainder of the dialog.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: Nightcrawler on October 04, 2012, 01:27:09 pm
Are you saying you're reverting BACK to item strings limited to 7 characters, 6 for potions and 4 for magic spells? That doesn't sound like a good idea to me.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: granz on October 04, 2012, 03:24:52 pm
Are you saying you're reverting BACK to item strings limited to 7 characters, 6 for potions and 4 for magic spells? That doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

That's correct; but bear in mind that I am trying to expand them. The English ROM had an 8-character limit for items and a 6-character limit for spells. (I think) The 7-character limit in the Japanese ROM has been gracious enough for the item strings, but I had to take some liberties and approximate a few things. (but not nearly as much as the English ROM did) Magic is a whole other story. That menu will need to be expanded to at least 5 characters, lest we end up with FFI-style abbreviations.

To compensate for the restrictions, I have implemented the usual squishy tiles, such as II, LI, IL, TI, etc. When I can find a way to expand the magic inventory, I still have room to add more tiles that could be worked into more specific strings. That's not necessarily saying you'll see really squished strings like "Curaga" crammed into such a small amount of space, though.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: Pennywise on October 04, 2012, 06:07:56 pm
I've been toying with the idea of doing retranslations of the first three SaGa games on the GB. In fact, I used to own the US release and played quite a bit of it back on my GBC back in the day. Needless to say I quite liked it. Anyway, my estimated time frame when I'd be able to bring the idea to fruition would be about a year from now.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: KingMike on October 04, 2012, 07:57:59 pm
Dune is at level 89? Is that normal in the Japanese version? I could swear the English version had a level cap around 35 or 40.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: granz on October 04, 2012, 08:44:39 pm
I've been toying with the idea of doing retranslations of the first three SaGa games on the GB. In fact, I used to own the US release and played quite a bit of it back on my GBC back in the day. Needless to say I quite liked it. Anyway, my estimated time frame when I'd be able to bring the idea to fruition would be about a year from now.

By any chance, would you be interested in helping me with this project? I could certainly use it.

Dune is at level 89? Is that normal in the Japanese version? I could swear the English version had a level cap around 35 or 40.

The level cap is 99 in both versions. The reason you might have thought otherwise is because character HP / MP usually hits 999 around the time you reach level 40. In actuality, HP can be increased to 65535 - anything above 999 just won't be indicated to the player. Major attributes similarly display a value as great as 99, even though they may be as high as 255.

Reaching level 99 takes about 20 hours of grinding. :)
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: Pennywise on October 05, 2012, 01:27:17 pm
I'd be willing to help you in about a year.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: granz on October 06, 2012, 06:32:15 pm
A slight progress update. Sara of Tower Reversed has been helping me expand the menus. Earlier, some of the strings that appeared during battle were restricted to only 3 or 4 characters. This was problematic for long strings like "Weapon." Thankfully, she found a way to take space from other areas of the ROM and use it to expand these strings.

(http://i.imgur.com/zzim6.png)

I'm still working out some of the logic for the magic menu. All I have at the moment is a rather poor concept.

(http://i.imgur.com/claeW.png) (http://i.imgur.com/65aWr.png)

I know some of these look awful, but I'm still working on a way to expand this menu so that each column supports 5 characters. If not, I may find a way to get extremely creative with the squishy tiles. Either way, it will most definitely not look like this.

October 08, 2012, 03:36:42 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Another minor update. Sorry for the double post.

I finished the spell menus for the time being, bearing in mind current technical limitations within the ROM. I plan to expand them if possible, so these translations are place-holders for now. If technical limitations prove insurmountable, then the finished product may look something like this. At least now I don't have tiles encroaching upon one another.

(http://i.imgur.com/XqVIf.png) (http://i.imgur.com/FcHnH.png)

(EDIT: fixed broken images)

If I can expand these to 5 characters per column, then I'd like to use the extra space to implement icons (i.e. to indicate black, white or neutral magic types) and retain these translations. If there is a strong enough opposition to that, then I can always consider ditching icons and simply trying to fit more accurate translations in that space.

Frankly, literal accuracy would be difficult to achieve with the scope of restrictions here. At best, I might be able to pull off an RPGe FFV-esque translation of the game. I guess that begs the question of why I would want to re-translate it in the first place. I do intend to ensure that major characters and plot elements reflect their Japanese counterparts are strongly as possible; otherwise, the only benefit is that the player gets to play around with a different style of menus from that of the English version. It might be an empty gesture, but I'm going for it anyway.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: Bregalad on October 15, 2012, 03:00:47 pm
Sorry if I'm late but wouldn't it be the best to implement a VWF so you would be limited by pixels (instead of tiles) ?
I think the original Gameboy has enough VRAM to handle arbitrary tiles on it's entiere screen : 20 * 18 = 360 tiles, Gameboy has VRAM for 3*128 = 384 simultaneous tiles, even if normally only 256 of them are accessible at a time, by IRQ it's possible to use all of them.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: KingMike on October 15, 2012, 04:10:53 pm
As I understand, it's 128 BG-only, 128 sprite-only and 128 shared. It could be a bit of a pain in the ass for scrolling menus, as you'd have to redraw the tiles every time you scrolled.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: Bregalad on October 15, 2012, 04:16:11 pm
Quote
As I understand, it's 128 BG-only, 128 sprite-only and 128 shared.
But can't the BG be changed to use the sprite bank as well ? Doing this mid-frame (with an interrupt) then reverting to the normal configuation in VBlank would allow to use all 384 tiles. Even if this can't be done, with 256 tiles you could still draw arbitary text for a large part of the screen, leaving the blank areas, icons and borders as normal tiles (then you'll have to be aligned with normal tiles, but is still better than using fixed-width letters mixed up with graphical letters squeezed in unaligned tiles).

Quote
It could be a bit of a pain in the ass for scrolling menus, as you'd have to redraw the tiles every time you scrolled.
Not really, only the map have to be fully updated (which is always the case even if you use a Fixed Width Font), but the tiles for the new row only have to be updated.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: granz on October 15, 2012, 04:18:40 pm
A VWF would be awesome, if I could find someone to implement it. That's beyond my expertise. Could you volunteer, Bregalad?
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: Bregalad on October 15, 2012, 04:57:40 pm
If this was a NES game I would without a doubt answer yes, but my knownledge of the GB platform, especially the GB-Z80 assembly language is extremely limited :(
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: syntax error on October 17, 2012, 05:36:31 pm
The GB is not a Z80 platform ,its a Toshiba microcontroller emulating a Z80 but is missing registers and has differences in the instruction set.But its documented.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: Bregalad on October 17, 2012, 05:54:12 pm
This is why I said GB-Z80 and not Z80.

It might be doccumented, but I'm not familiar with it.

(did you read my post ?)
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: granz on October 17, 2012, 06:47:47 pm
Well, no worries. Sara may have found a way to expand the magic strings, and possibly a few other problem areas. A VWF would certainly be nice, but we should be able to get along without one.

Assuming we do expand a few more strings, that just leaves the actual game script. It's mostly a matter of figuring out how to decompress it.

October 24, 2012, 03:17:28 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Good news! Sara managed to expand the magic inventory. Now spell strings display their respective icons, like the English version:

(http://i.imgur.com/8Hsit.png)

We've also been working on the translation of strings related to shops, miscellaneous menus and interactions with the Steslos cockpit:

(http://i.imgur.com/I8pPZ.png) (http://i.imgur.com/CZDJg.png)

The expansion of the magic inventory introduced a few bugs, but those should be addressed soon. After we finish that and insert everything with the exception of the game script itself, I may consider releasing a preliminary patch. Locating and decompressing the main dialog might take some time.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: granz on November 09, 2012, 11:48:35 am
A preliminary patch is now available here (http://www.romhacking.net/translations/1760/). This just translates all the menus, inventories, names and menu-related items.

This puts the project at about 50% completion. The only thing left to do now is find, decompress and translate the main dialog.

A quick note: The early SaGa games (and possibly some of the later additions to the series) use an odd form of currency called "Kero." Hence, you see the underlined K in place of the English GP. I'm not sure what the reference is, if any. I'd appreciate if anyone could elaborate on it though.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: Satoshi_Matrix on November 15, 2012, 10:54:05 am
Awesome! Final Fantasy Legend 3 is one of my very favorite GameBoy games. Any idea on when this might be released?
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: granz on November 15, 2012, 11:48:44 am
Any idea on when this might be released?

sara (who is responsible for the technical work) has recently expressed an interest in returning to some of her other projects. This might put SaGa 3 on a hiatus, at least until I can find someone else to decompress the remainder of dialog. It's really weird how the game stores it. It looks like parts of it are broken up into something similar to a DTE table, with each entry in the table pertaining to a common phrase. (like "Okay" or "All right") We have found entire conversations, though.

My help-wanted ad is still up, so I'm hoping someone will respond in the near future. If not, I may have to abandon the project and set aside the current assets for anyone who wants to take over. My ROM-hacking skills are too limited to decompress the remaining dialog. The only thing I can do at this point is translate.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: Pennywise on November 16, 2012, 12:54:41 am
The game uses a combination of one and two-byte dictionary compression with a little RLE thrown in for good measure. Intro script starts at 25FBE.

On an unrelated note, BGB is telling me that VRAM is being written to when it shouldn't. Not the first game this has happened to and I wouldn't be surprised if the game was shoddily programmed.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: LostTemplar on November 16, 2012, 04:05:36 am
On an unrelated note, BGB is telling me that VRAM is being written to when it shouldn't. Not the first game this has happened to and I wouldn't be surprised if the game was shoddily programmed.

Looking at the code of some of Square's SNES titles I wouldn't be surprised either.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: granz on November 16, 2012, 09:36:17 am
The game uses a combination of one and two-byte dictionary compression with a little RLE thrown in for good measure. Intro script starts at 25FBE.

So, want to help me out here? You dump and I'll translate. :P

Quote
On an unrelated note, BGB is telling me that VRAM is being written to when it shouldn't. Not the first game this has happened to and I wouldn't be surprised if the game was shoddily programmed.

There are two other possibilities that come to mind: sara had to get pretty creative when it came to expanding some of the strings or otherwise re-arranging elements on the screen. (the magic inventory had to be totally redone) This might have caused unintended side-effects. Another thing worth noting is that the text prints two lines simultaneously, with one superimposed on top of the other. This is how it renders diacritical marks in kana. We can't code that effect out, so it's still being executed, even though it's printing... nothing. I have no idea whether or not this could be related to VRAM in any way.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: Pennywise on November 16, 2012, 01:23:49 pm
Sorry, you'll have to get your hands dirty. I'll upload my partial table to give you an idea what to do.

http://yojimbo.eludevisibility.org/Stuff/saga3.tbl

My comment about VRAM had nothing to do with your patch. It's something that happens with the unmodified ROM.

Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: granz on November 17, 2012, 02:52:36 pm
sara actually has the character set and then some. It's somewhere here (http://www.towerreversed.org/dump/) along with other dumps. (some of these files pertain to FFLegend 1 and 2, respectively)

You can find bits and pieces of the game script there, if that's of any interest to you.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: granz on December 02, 2012, 03:47:30 pm
Things are picking up again. We actually managed to put the rest of the script together, and now all I have to do is finish translating it.

It looks like quite a lot of context was lost in translation, namely because the official English localization team was completely incompetent. English audiences really didn't get the grit of the story. I guess it's up to me to fix that. :)

I'm not sure if I can give a time frame on the project's completion, but it shouldn't take me more than a month. (although, it may be a bit slower due to the holidays)

On a side note, I've deleted my help-wanted ad. It looks like no additional technical resources are needed at this point. I mean, all that's left is insertion.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: Jorpho on December 02, 2012, 11:31:13 pm
It looks like quite a lot of context was lost in translation, namely because the official English localization team was completely incompetent. English audiences really didn't get the grit of the story. I guess it's up to me to fix that. :)
Did you know it was actually Ted Woolsey's first project at Square?

I guess the DS version currently being translated is sufficiently different that there would be no overlap in the scripts?
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: granz on December 03, 2012, 01:44:42 am
Did you know it was actually Ted Woolsey's first project at Square?

Odd, because there's a lot of Engrish in the script, not to mention some things are left out entirely. I'm sure it's possible there were Japanese editors or department heads making changes to his drafts, though. That's the only explanation I can think of, because it would be really unusual for a native speaker to make those kinds of mistakes.

If I were Ted, I wouldn't brag about FFLegend III on my resume.

Quote
I guess the DS version currently being translated is sufficiently different that there would be no overlap in the scripts?

Yes. The DS version is a whole other vision of SaGa 3 on modern hardware. There's no script overlap because the DS version expands on too many things and adds events, quests, characters, etc. that weren't in the GB original.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: Pennywise on December 03, 2012, 02:05:51 am
I think considering what Woolsey was up against, he did a pretty good job. As fans we have the benefit of not having to keep a schedule and having to finish something within a set amount of time. Pioneers like Ted didn't have that and according to an interview he stated that he had to cut about 40% of text (I don't believe this was game specific, just a general statement) from his translations due to space restraints.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: Bregalad on December 03, 2012, 09:23:32 am
Quote
As fans we have the benefit of not having to keep a schedule and having to finish something within a set amount of time.
This, and we can also expand the ROM.
Fewer games expanded the ROM while being translated, but at last Dragon Warrior 1, 2, 3 did, and Earthbound (NES) did too, which might be why it wasn't released to the market - the production would have costed more than for japanese cartridge since the ROM would be bigger.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: granz on December 03, 2012, 07:01:41 pm
I'm not really familiar with the scene. I don't actually know any professional video game translators by name. This is my first translation project ever, so any judgments I make about the video game industry might be premature.

I have heard the name "Ted Woosley" before, but I can't remember where. I think someone mentioned his involvement in FF6 or something. Either that, or there was something controversial about him / FF6's translation.

Well, I'm getting kind of off-topic, but that's okay. This project is almost finished, and few people are interested in discussing SaGa 3 anyway. :P
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: KingMike on December 03, 2012, 11:09:27 pm
He translated SNES-era Square games.
Secret of Mana, FF6, Chrono Trigger, Super Mario RPG, Breath of Fire 1.

Some people didn't like his FF6 translation, which included a handful of quite ridiculous lines.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: granz on February 16, 2013, 01:29:21 pm
Geez. Has it been 60 days since my last post here?

I've run into some frustrations with the space constraints. Any time I try to reword something for added clarity or more accurate translation, it ends up consuming too many characters. As bad as this may sound, I'm honestly thinking about a copy / paste of the existing English script with a few revisions to grammar, censorship, differences in character names and references, and whatever clarity I can manage to cram in there.

At the very least, this is a desperate placeholder so I can go ahead with a full release, as opposed to sticking everyone with a half-translated ROM. I may come back in the future and try to redo the dialog again. If not, then at least the entire game will be in a playable state, with some minor improvements.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: Pennywise on February 16, 2013, 04:09:37 pm
The solution to your woes is ROM expansion.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: granz on February 16, 2013, 04:49:04 pm
The solution to your woes is ROM expansion.

Which would be great, if I knew how. I'm really just the translator. sara does most of the leg work, and she hasn't mentioned anything about expansion. It might be something she's never done before; but I'll run it by her anyway.

Of course, anyone who could volunteer this would be greatly appreciated. I have no idea what level of complexity such an operation involves.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: TheZunar123 on February 21, 2013, 05:14:29 pm
I've never heard of the Final Fantasy Legend games, but they do sound interesting. The only GB Final Fantasy game I've played is Final Fantasy Adventure, which is good too. I might give them a try.

I've looked around about rom expansion, but I haven't found anything that might help you. I know that rom expansion can be easy or difficult depending on the system and the game (for example, GBA & SNES tend to be easy to expand, but NES can be difficult). Might want to look around on the site and see if there's any documents on rom expansion and see if it mentions GB.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: Pennywise on February 21, 2013, 06:55:39 pm
I've never done any expansion hacks on the GB, but I hear it's pretty easy. I might be willing to help, but it's a two-fold process of hacking the code and updating the script insertion process.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: KingMike on February 21, 2013, 07:35:50 pm
The GB "Final Fantasy Legends" are rebranded SaGa games, and Final Fantasy Adventure is a rebranded Seiken Densetsu 1.

I've also heard expansion is pretty easy on GameBoy, but you would need to check documentation for the ROM (and possibly RAM) limits of the mapper.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: TheZunar123 on February 22, 2013, 08:31:20 pm
Question, if I want to play this game, should I play the original game or should I wait until this re-translation is finished?
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: Pikachumanson on February 25, 2013, 01:16:45 am
I enjoyed the original translation back when i was a kid. Do what you will. Personally, i think retranslations should come with extras like they do when they rerelease games here in stateside. Unless the dialog just was that bad then that's a different story.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: granz on February 25, 2013, 07:08:22 pm
Question, if I want to play this game, should I play the original game or should I wait until this re-translation is finished?

The differences between the two versions aren't major. I guess you're not missing out on anything by playing the official English localization. The main difference is how the menus are handled. See earlier screenshots on the first page for more information.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: ChronoMoogle on February 25, 2013, 07:45:03 pm
A little feedback about the titlescreen:
I think the subtitle looks way too wedged. I made a mockup to show how it might look a little more natural :)
(http://i.imagebanana.com/img/4z5ns1es/Saga3Title.png)
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: TheZunar123 on February 25, 2013, 08:26:17 pm
The differences between the two versions aren't major. I guess you're not missing out on anything by playing the official English localization. The main difference is how the menus are handled. See earlier screenshots on the first page for more information.
Alright then, I may give the official localization a try. However I'm sure I'll understand things better with this re-translation.

Speaking of understanding re-translations more (this is off-topic), when I first played Final Fantasy 6, I never really understood what Sabin meant when he said "Tears...?" until I played the GBA version. Instead, he says "Are you... crying?", which totally makes sense. Then again I was young when I first played the game, so half the text I didn't really understand anyways.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: granz on February 25, 2013, 09:15:36 pm
A little feedback about the titlescreen:
I think the subtitle looks way too wedged. I made a mockup to show how it might look a little more natural :)
(http://i.imagebanana.com/img/4z5ns1es/Saga3Title.png)

Unfortunately, the graphics tiles don't extend that far. The reason the translated subtitle is so small is because that's the only space we had available. One thing I could do is remove the katakana from the top and place part of the subtitle up there. Maybe it could read "Champions of" at the top, then "Time & Space" below the huge SaGa 3 text.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: TheZunar123 on February 25, 2013, 09:31:40 pm
Another quick question. If I were to start playing the SaGa games, should I start with the first one? Or should I start with 2 or 3?
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: granz on February 25, 2013, 10:24:54 pm
Another quick question. If I were to start playing the SaGa games, should I start with the first one? Or should I start with 2 or 3?

There's no continuity, so it doesn't matter. Final Fantasy Legend III would probably be the easiest game to start with since it's more like a typical JRPG. The first two games handle things very differently, such as a lack of experience levels. They're also more challenging.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: KingMike on February 26, 2013, 01:04:58 am
Unfortunately, the graphics tiles don't extend that far. The reason the translated subtitle is so small is because that's the only space we had available. One thing I could do is remove the katakana from the top and place part of the subtitle up there. Maybe it could read "Champions of" at the top, then "Time & Space" below the huge SaGa 3 text.

Then it would read "Champions of SaGa 3 Time & Space". :P
But maybe recycling the katakana tiles and moving them into the tilemap for Time & Space could work?

As to the other SaGa GB games...
one thing is that all items, including weapons (Attack), shields (Defend) and magic have limited use before they break, so they must be replaced regularly.
The classes also upgrade differently.

Spoiler:
SaGa 1:
Humans: can only gain stats by buying and using stat-up items. HP200/400/600 items only raise max HP until it reaches the corresponding amount. I suppose with Strength and Agility you could boost as long as you have the money to spend on items.
Mutants: stats randomly go up after battle. Their skills also randomly change after battle.
Monsters: chance into other monsters by eating the meat of other monsters.

SaGa 2:
Humans: now they gain stats after battle. While gains occur at random times, by using certain weapons you can influence which stat (STR, AGL, MANA) gets raised.
Mutants: now like mutants, except when they swap skills, the skill is always swapped in the last slot. This allows you to keep desired skills by putting the least-wanted one in the last slot.
Robots: when they equip an item, its usage is dropped in half. However they can also get the item repaired to half its max uses at an inn. Robots don't gain stats after battle, though.
Monsters: same, I think.

The only part of that SaGa 3 retains is that you can transform your characters into enemies by using robot parts or monster meat left behind by enemies. Though which you switch into depends on the character's EXP level, as well as their "element". Going to have to look that information up in a FAQ if you don't have the manual.
Like most RPGs, you have EXP levels in SaGa 3, and equipment and magic can be equipped permanently.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: TheZunar123 on February 26, 2013, 08:46:06 pm
I've been playing SaGa 3 lately, and it's pretty cool. There are a few text-related things that REALLY bug me, and I would change if I could. One example being "Defence". How the freak do you spell Defense wrong?
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: KingMike on February 26, 2013, 09:50:45 pm
Seems both are correct. The "c" spelling apparently is the British spelling while the "s" is American.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: granz on February 26, 2013, 10:00:33 pm
Seems both are correct. The "c" spelling apparently is the British spelling while the "s" is American.

Yes, U.K. and other dialects of English abroad. Similarly, offense versus offence. I'm not clear on why the [ c] is preferred in other dialects, because defense with an [ s] was used historically as well. Unlike some of the major differences among the various dialects, this one seems completely arbitrary.

It's worth noting that Square had a habit of spelling defence with a [ c] in other games as well. Final Fantasy II (IV) comes to mind.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: Bregalad on February 27, 2013, 03:09:11 pm
For me defense is more logical since it's closer to french "défense".

However I like the british "armour" better than the american "armor", because it's closer to french "armure". It's a shame Square used "armor" everywhere, I don't like it ^^

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Yes, U.K. and other dialects of English abroad.
Just for information, English the language of the England country. If anything has to be a dialect, it has to be US english. This is just factual whenever you like it or not.

I hate french from france, but I'll have to admit I'm the one technically speaking a "dialect", even if our dialect is in many ways superior to their "standard" french.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: Lilinda on February 27, 2013, 04:13:37 pm
There are multiple dialects of English in the UK alone... The small part of Ireland in it has its own dialect, Scotland has its own dialect, Wales, hell England itself has more than one dialect(Chavs have one of their own for example).
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: granz on February 27, 2013, 05:50:16 pm
For me defense is more logical since it's closer to french "défense".

However I like the british "armour" better than the american "armor", because it's closer to french "armure". It's a shame Square used "armor" everywhere, I don't like it ^^
Just for information, English the language of the England country. If anything has to be a dialect, it has to be US english. This is just factual whenever you like it or not.

I hope this makes sense the first time, because I hate etymology.

The French language had a profound influence on English back in the day. As a result, we incorporated a lot of your orthography and vocabulary into our language. In reality, most of the vocabulary we incorporated from French is actually Latin, (French got it from Latin, then we got it from French) or we applied French orthographic rules to existing Latin loanwords that we had borrowed before the popularity of French. This doesn't really make sense since English is more of a Germanic language.

Centuries later, we (the U.S.) purposefully reformed some of these spellings in order to make these words consistent with their actual etymologies, and how a typical English speaker might receive a word's pronunciation upon reading it. To us, the [ u] in colour or the spelling of chequer would seem excrescent, because many of these vowels aren't pronounced and don't serve any kind of grammatical purpose to us. Why task ourselves with spelling things in an excrescent way when we could simplify the process and possibly make English a little easier to use?

By the way, U.S. English is technically the most popular major dialect of English in current use, as we outnumber English-speaking Europeans. They're more widely distributed than we are, but the problem is they're not all speaking and writing the same dialect. As I.S.T. indicated, Canadians have their own interpretation of spelling and grammar, as does the U.K. population, Australians, etc. It's even more divergent with populations that speak English as a second or third language, because they don't always commit themselves to dialectal consistency. (or they learned English from multiple sources)
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: Bregalad on February 28, 2013, 03:11:14 am
I don't think that having to spell "Armour" or "Armor" makes the language more or less easier to use. Though removal of irregular verbs (UK "learnt" -> US "learned") certainly does.

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There are multiple dialects of English in the UK alone
I don't really know, but all I can tell is that english from rural parts of UK or Ireland can be completely unintelligible for me (even though I can normally speak English fluently), and this is probably applicable to rural parts of US too (I never went there).
Sometimes the barrier between an accent and a dialect is hard to draw.

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It's even more divergent with populations that speak English as a second or third language, because they don't always commit themselves to dialectal consistency. (or they learned English from multiple sources)
Definitely. Since we are presented with different "right" ways to write English, we just pick our preferred one. (in my case, defense and armour)

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To us, the [ u] in colour or the spelling of chequer would seem excrescent, because many of these vowels aren't pronounced and don't serve any kind of grammatical purpose to us.
I might be completely wrong, but I assume that in the UK the 'u' actually is pronounced.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: MontyMole on February 28, 2013, 11:00:33 am
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I might be completely wrong, but I assume that in the UK the 'u' actually is pronounced.
If its any consequence I say it as 'Kulla' I don't know how other parts of the country would say it though. 

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hell England itself has more than one dialect(Chavs have one of their own for example)
Its called Jafaican (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multicultural_London_English) if you are from London and is edging out Cockney to the Essex heartlands, Chavs tend to be called something else depending on the part of the country you're in, for instance they are called neds if you're Scottish.   
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: granz on March 01, 2013, 04:00:11 pm
I guess we're getting off topic. I'll try to wrap this up and not get all OCD about it in the future.

I don't think that having to spell "Armour" or "Armor" makes the language more or less easier to use.

It does, simply because it adds up. Now, this is not the only change we're talking about. We have reformed numerous other words as well. For instance, we cut the [-ue] from words like prolog(ue), dialog(ue) and demagog(ue) because Latin doesn't spell them with the [-ue]. French does. Due to the popularity of French during the Middle and Early Modern English eras, we incorporated the excrescent [-ue] for completely arbitrary reasons.

Most people use this rule inconsistently, though. I notice "analog" is a popular spelling in U.S. English, but the very same writers will use "dialogue" instead of "dialog." Most people don't bother to learn enough about etymology to understand the difference. Blame our educational system. We have this cognitive bias that a more expensive education must necessarily mean a higher quality of education, which isn't true.

Even the people who co-write presidential speeches have admitted to avoiding certain areas of grammar because even they aren't sure how to use them. For instance, you'll probably never hear a president try to use whom. I have never once misused whom, and my highest level of education is only 6 months of technical training. It's simply the difference between the nominative and the oblique case, which is something everybody should know by the 2nd grade.

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I might be completely wrong, but I assume that in the UK the 'u' actually is pronounced.

The phoneme produced by [ou] and [ o] is the same. You wouldn't notice any change in pronunciation between U.S. and U.K. English color / colour.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: TheZunar123 on March 01, 2013, 05:35:58 pm
Most people use this rule inconsistently, though. I notice "analog" is a popular spelling in U.S. English, but the very same writers will use "dialogue" instead of "dialog."
I happen to be one of those people, particularly with "prologue" since I think leaving out the [ue] makes it look weird.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: Pikachumanson on March 01, 2013, 06:11:42 pm
I don't think you can spell prologue like that anyway.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: ChronoMoogle on March 01, 2013, 06:18:21 pm
Just for the heck of it:
A introduction guide of the game story and characters of >Romancing< Saga 3 is called "Prologue"  :crazy:
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: Azkadellia on March 01, 2013, 06:52:11 pm
To me, "Dialogue" and "Dialog" are 2 different things. The former refers to conversation, etc. and the latter is used in programming to describe a little window that opens (like opening a file or setting program options) when you perform an action.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: odditude on March 01, 2013, 11:11:07 pm
To me, "Dialogue" and "Dialog" are 2 different things. The former refers to conversation, etc. and the latter is used in programming to describe a little window that opens (like opening a file or setting program options) when you perform an action.
this*100.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: granz on March 03, 2013, 01:00:11 pm
I don't think you can spell prologue like that anyway.

You can (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Prologue), along with demagog, synagog, dialog, epilog, and so forth.

prologue often US, prolog : demagogue sometimes US, demagog : dialogue often US, dialog

Be sure to check the etymologies. The [-ue] exists only in French.

Middle English prolog, from Old French prologue, from Latin prologus, from Greek prologos
Middle English dialog, from Old French dialogue, from Latin dialogus, from Greek dialogos

For consistency, one would always retain the [-ue] or drop it altogether. The only exception lies in words like fatigue, which aren't etymologically related to words like analog(ue). Unlike the other words, fatigue was taken straight from French. Even though the [-ue] seems excrescent to English orthography, this is the only possibly way to spell it due to the fact that we rarely, if ever, transliterate loanwords to make it easier to receive pronunciation.

Quote from: Azkadellia
To me, "Dialogue" and "Dialog" are 2 different things.

This is a common mistake people tend to make when they notice variations in spelling. There isn't any contextual difference, but some people will use these variations in different situations regardless, even if they have to make up new meanings as they go along. I strongly discourage this, but no one listens to me anyway. Woe to English. :(
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: Bregalad on March 03, 2013, 01:15:49 pm
In french, the [ue] is nessesarly for pronunciation.
If you take them out, the final g would not be pronunced, resulting in no [g] sound.

English has no rules for pronunciation, so I don't think it matters this much.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: tryphon on March 03, 2013, 01:48:42 pm
That's wrong. A 'g' at the end of a word is usually pronounced, since it usually comes from an english word (blog, grog, I'm still looking for a word from another origin).

French has no rule for pronunciation, for what it can mean, and even what you call rules have been established a posteriori. That's why they all suffer unnumerable exceptions.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: Bregalad on March 03, 2013, 02:31:17 pm
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That's wrong. A 'g' at the end of a word is usually pronounced, since it usually comes from an english word (blog, grog, I'm still looking for a word from another origin).
I don't know if this sentence was sarcastic or serious.

Nevertheless, there is a lot of legitimate french words ending with a silent "g", and this remain true despite the indecent afflux of english words that makes up 50% of some people's vocabulary as a result of the world globalisation.

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French has no rule for pronunciation
Yes, there is but, as you said :
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That's why they all suffer unnumerable exceptions.

Especially since a lot of words are borrowed from english (as I said about 50% of some people's vocabulary), and more rarely from german italian or other language.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: ChronoMoogle on March 03, 2013, 03:50:01 pm
It's kind of funny how this thread became a language discussion instead of a project thread.
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: tryphon on March 03, 2013, 07:49:11 pm
I don't know if this sentence was sarcastic or serious.

It was serious. Why would I be sarcastic about that ?

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Nevertheless, there is a lot of legitimate french words ending with a silent "g", and this remain true despite the indecent afflux of english words that makes up 50% of some people's vocabulary as a result of the world globalisation.

A lot... (http://dict.xmatiere.com/suffixes/mots_finissant_en_g.php). Most of them are of english origin, and in most of them, the 'g' is pronounced, or used to be.

And I claim that nearly all French would prononce the g if 'dialogue' was spelled 'dialog'. The only difference would be the '-e' wouldn't be pronounced, and yet, it would depend on the regions (and in some regions, theu don't pronounce it with 'dialogue').

By the way, of course, I'm French :)
Title: Re: SaGa 3: Champions of Time & Space (GB) re-translation
Post by: break on October 07, 2013, 01:17:26 pm
oh wow...looks like i am late to the party.

* so is this project completed ? *

i really like the work i have seen put into this and will try this out later on today  ^_^ !!