Romhacking.net

Romhacking => Newcomer's Board => Topic started by: bLind on March 30, 2012, 01:47:48 pm

Title: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: bLind on March 30, 2012, 01:47:48 pm
Ok... so I read some of the newbie stuff, and this is what sticked in my head: "it's hard work" (no problem... I can do that... can't I ?)...
Aaaagrrrr... let's get straight to the "newbie's point" (questions/requests): I would like to play the SEGA Genesis/MegaDrive Ninja Burai Densetsu in English, soo... by searching I couldn't find a translated rom and I thought "why shouldn't I translate it ?" (right ?) !
If anyone who translated a .smd rom has a tutorial, some steps and the best programs to use, please tell me !
Would it be easier if I convert the .smd to .bin ? .... Let me stop here and I'll continue after I see some responses... ow... I couldn't find any work started on translating this rom [maybe I missed it, and hope you could point me to the right direction (not the exit please !) ]
Title: Re: Translation: Ninja Burai Densetsu (.smd)
Post by: Auryn on March 30, 2012, 08:12:05 pm
HERE (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=genesis+rom+structure)
Title: Re: Translation: Ninja Burai Densetsu (.smd)
Post by: bLind on March 31, 2012, 03:59:46 am
^That's giving me bible stuff !
Title: Re: Translation: Ninja Burai Densetsu (.smd)
Post by: LostTemplar on March 31, 2012, 06:01:48 am
Well, I don't get any bible stuff, but the first results aren't very informative either. But I think he wanted to hint at something different: Google is your friend, you can find most things you would want to know there. You could also look into the Documents section here at RHDN, there are some documents on the Genesis to get you started.
Title: Re: Translation: Ninja Burai Densetsu (.smd)
Post by: bLind on March 31, 2012, 09:42:34 am
For starter, I changed (with MadEdit hex editor the .smd) 国 with KN just to see if it works, and I changed all found 国 with KN and saved it ! But no changes in the game !!! :-X
What should I do ?
Title: Re: Translation: Ninja Burai Densetsu (.smd)
Post by: Gideon Zhi on March 31, 2012, 09:46:01 am
Well, the very first thing you should do is not hack an SMD file. SMDs are interleaved in funky ways; you'll want to convert it to a BIN before even attempting to hack it.
Title: Re: Translation: Ninja Burai Densetsu (.smd)
Post by: bLind on March 31, 2012, 12:03:11 pm
The converters I found 'till now didn't work, but I found the rom as .bin, is there any need to convert the .smd one to .bin, or it's ok to use the one I found as .bin ?
Edit: Did the same thing with the .bin... but no change ! Shouldn't the rom be decomplied somehow ? I read something about scripts !?
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: LostTemplar on March 31, 2012, 03:37:29 pm
I figure you're using Shift-JIS in MadEdit? It's very uncommon for a game of that era to use Shift-JIS. You have to create a table yourself that says what byte values are mapped to what characters. How this is done is explained in many a document here. I always start with finding the font graphics in the ROM (at least if they're not compressed).
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: Auryn on March 31, 2012, 04:38:03 pm
My hint was the very first result in google.
You think that a site with this introduction:
Quote
Welcome to the Genesis development section of Eidolon's Inn! You will find useful tools and documents on this page which will help you understand the inner workings of the Genesis. If you have further questions, you should ask them in The Tavern - there's some folk around which can help you. At the bottom of the page, you will find some links to homepages of people who are currently developing software for the Genesis.
,
a site full of documents and tools (sprite/tile editors/converters, sound tools, checksum generator) and an address to a forum with people working on Genesis to ask question, isn't helping you?? Then I have nothing more to say to you.
Just in case your google give you a different sequenze of answer as mine, try to take another look at http://www.eidolons-inn.net/old/sega/gen_dev.html (http://www.eidolons-inn.net/old/sega/gen_dev.html)

Anyway, if your main problem is to view Sjis enconding, then I don't expect you to understand anything in that site.
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: bLind on April 01, 2012, 01:55:23 am
(http://www.bloodyvelvet.com/pics/index.gif)

April 01, 2012, 05:49:11 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
^ That's how I'm feeling right now (too much reading, not much assimilation)
@LostTemplar
I'm using MadEdit 'cuz it's the only prog. in which I can see the kanji (and kana)  ?
When I use a tbl nothing changes (I found this sjis.tbl (http://code.google.com/p/plutoproject/downloads/detail?name=SJIS.TBL) and it looks like the hex matches with the japanese characters in the rom)
I had just installed the japanese language support on my PC and I'm not that great with handling it !
The bin rom I found is exactly like the smd one except for the file extension (smd/bin) !
How do I extract the data from the rom ? I have a feeling  the data is compressed • • • ! I Think (noob thought) the texts in the game are... images (?) !
I want someone to guide me to the step in which I modify a single kanji (there are more kanjis in the game than kana), in anything else (a number, 2 letters... anything) and see that it changed in the game ! <- Probably a long way 'till that (?) !
*damn it ! damn it !* *shnit ! shnit !*
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: goldenband on April 01, 2012, 05:55:48 pm
I sympathize, bLind.  I have no experience with 16-bit hacking, but when I was first trying to figure out how to crack open an 8-bit ROM, it was very frustrating and bewildering at first.  Getting pointed to a bunch of random tools isn't necessarily helpful, especially if (like me) you're not a Windows user.

Besides, some of us learn best by taking an action that has a concrete, visible effect, and then reasoning backwards to figure out how it worked and what else we might do.  Otherwise it can feel like you're in a sea of futility and nothing is making any sense.  And to Google something, you need to have some idea of what you're looking for in the first place, and sometimes that's not clear!  One person who's willing to offer specific, concrete help (instead of rolling their eyes or speaking in generalities) can save you hours of needless, misdirected effort.

Anyway, I'm interested in this game since I recently bought an original copy of it, so I tried nosing around in the ROM with TileMolester (4bpp linear, 2-dimensional mode) but wasn't able to make sense of what I found.  I also played for a bit, went into the game's side-scrolling mode, and went into a building where a fellow had something to say to me in (mostly) hiragana:

(http://i40.tinypic.com/14x11qb.png)

The text display routine comes up one character at a time, so it's not just an image.  I transcribed this as:

いらっしゃいませ. 何か買いますか?

I then tried using a relative search program (OpenSearch) to find the text, but no luck.  Perhaps I'm not using my program correctly -- I can't make sense of its wildcard function, so when I tried to use a search pattern that would allow for 2-byte encoding, it threw up nonsensical results.  Or perhaps the text, too, is compressed.

If someone with better skills than mine can identify where the above text is located, then you'll be doing bLind a big kindness.  Believe me, I know the feeling he's having!
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: KingMike on April 01, 2012, 10:06:57 pm
Well, I know Gens uses uncompressed savestates, so you could start by looking through that (I think in a Gens savestate, RAM starts at $478 and VRAM at $10478, you could find where the tiles and tilemap data are in there. Plus there's a program to view Gens savestates (http://www.romhacking.net/utilities/344/). (it can tell you where the tiles and tilemap is in VRAM, so you can try to view the raw tilemap data and see if you can find the format)
You can try to see if you can find data in RAM.
Though I suppose you might need some 68000 knowledge to work backward, but Gens Tracer (http://www.romhacking.net/utilities/337/) can help in trying to locate data, in how it got from ROM to RAM.
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: Auryn on April 01, 2012, 11:03:24 pm
Well I am sure that the game is compressed (text and graphics) and with probably a custom table.
Here you can see the beginning of your text:
(http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/6372/41175802.th.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/593/41175802.png/)

They used little tricks like mirroring tiles to save some space as well (see number 8 ):
(http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/3613/29938277.th.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/407/29938277.png/)

But even without looking at the save state, they should have seen this (the only graphic that isn't compressed in the rom):
(http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/5200/aaadt.png)

I think it's not bad to have all this finding in about 2 hours counting finding info, tools, emu and examine the game for somebody that never touched a Genesis/MD rom (me).
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: goldenband on April 01, 2012, 11:53:25 pm
Hey, thanks for that, Auryn -- nice work!  Would you mind posting the ROM locations where you're finding those?  I must have Tile Molester set up incorrectly -- I've never used it on a 16-bit ROM -- but surely I would've seen the SEGA logo, since I paged through the whole ROM repeatedly.

So wait, does that mean that the dialogue box of which I posted a screenshot is an image?  That's surprising if so.  Or is it just that the table order happens to be set up to match that particular dialogue box?

Also, are those screenshots you're posting directly from the ROM, or after running a decompression routine (and if so, what's the compressor)?
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: bLind on April 02, 2012, 04:50:08 am
I sympathize, bLind.  I have no experience with 16-bit hacking
I have NO experience at all related to hacking, as I said, I only want to play this game in English, that's why I'm trying this !
 Wooow,@Auryn sensei, what did you used to do what you just did ?
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: LostTemplar on April 02, 2012, 05:23:33 am
I'd say he just used what KingMike was saying (viewing the savestate). If the Sega logo is uncompressed in the ROM you should be able to see it with any tile editor.
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: Auryn on April 02, 2012, 05:27:09 am
Sega logo > tile molester 4bpp linear in 1 dimentional mode. First 1/4 of the rom with some shift scroll (byte scroll in TM) and another palette, I choosed this one because it's more easy to see.

The other 2 images are from TM as well but opening the savegame (I have done what KingMike said before I see his post :P).
Because you can see the graphics in the save game but not in the rom, it means that they are compressed.
Looking online, it seems that MD used SJIS encoding but parsing the rom, there is nothing similar to SJIS encoding and because it's looking like there is nothing like SJIS in the savegame either, it's probably a custom table.
Considering the images I saw in the emu, the fact that it uses a resolution of 320x224 @4bpp  (every map is bigger than that) and the size of the rom, I would say the text is compressed as well.

Is the text in you image actually an image?? Yes and no. I didn't check it well.
The "normal" way it should be is that the font tiles are decompressed somewhere in the ram (the part with the numbers probably). Each letter in the text, call the respective tile from the font tiles and a word/ is composed graphically in another place in the ram (the pic with the beginning of your phrase). Finally this word/frase is copied to the VRAM/screen.

What this means for your project?? You need to trace where the data comes from in the rom and how it's decompressed (need to learn ASM). You will need to program (in visual basic, C, C++, C# or else) a de-/compressor to extract the data (image or text) and recompress it into the rom after you edited/translated it. Finally, but this is the smalles problem, fix the checksum you have in any MD game rom.
Sure not really a job for a newbie but nothing is impossible so feel free to try.

PS: if it wasn't clear, it was the first rom for MD that i ever touched.
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: Pennywise on April 02, 2012, 06:06:33 pm
There's a chance the game might use the Nemesis compression, in which case these is a tool to extract the compressed data.
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: RedComet on April 03, 2012, 12:00:04 am
The preliminary notes I made a few years ago say that the compression scheme looked like an LZ variant, so yeah. Definitely not a newbie project.
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: Auryn on April 03, 2012, 01:07:56 am
Got something with Nemesis but it's really only this at the moment.
(http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/7105/22457513.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/16/22457513.png/)

This wasn't visible in the savestate so or it's directly decompressed to VRAM or it's used in a special place in the game.
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: goldenband on April 03, 2012, 01:44:29 am
Auryn, the English/Latin font looks like a match for the "PUSH START BUTTON" font from the title screen.

bLind, do you have any Japanese-language skills?  This definitely looks like to be an advanced project, and I think this is way too tough for your first ROM hack -- it'd certainly be far beyond me -- but if you wanted to help keep the ball rolling, you could try to chip away at translating the game's script, or even just transcribing it (if you can handle hiragana).  I used Nciku to identify the two kanji in the excerpt I posted, cross-referencing with Wiktionary so that I could copy the character from the Japanese fontbase (I don't know how Unicode manages it, but I figured it'd be safer that way).

RedComet, is there anything else in your preliminary notes that might be useful?

EDIT: Looks like there's a webpage here (http://neetneet.wiki.fc2.com/wiki/%E5%BF%8D%E8%80%85%E6%AD%A6%E9%9B%B7%E4%BC%9D%E8%AA%AC%E6%94%BB%E7%95%A5) with some item names and so forth.

There might be something useful here (http://mii5.at.webry.info/200902/article_3.html), since this site appears to have at least some of the game's script,  That's where I ended up when I Googled one of the lines of dialogue I transcribed:

この辺りの奴らはみんな信長の手先じゃ.

Which is spoken by the guy in the fourth (?) building in the first town, and which Google Translate renders as "Well, guys in this area [are] all minions of Nobunaga."

The site also appears to have most or all of the text from the opening splash screens.  Could be a gold mine for someone attempting a translation.
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: bLind on April 03, 2012, 05:58:18 am
I see progress (not from me :P ) !
I read that IDA Pro could help disassamble sega roms !
bLind, do you have any Japanese-language skills?  This definitely looks like to be an advanced project, and I think this is way too tough for your first ROM hack -- it'd certainly be far beyond me -- but if you wanted to help keep the ball rolling, you could try to chip away at translating the game's script, or even just transcribing it (if you can handle hiragana).
It's hard for me to handle hacking this rom tho' when I played (hacked) with a NES rom, it looks like a piece of cake !
Well I can handle hiragana ! What I don't like in the Japanese language is that it doesn't have space between words, they just come in a long continuous string of chars, and another thing is that Japanese is too ambiguous ! But with some dictionary's help I can handle translating (but it will take some time to do it) !
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: LostTemplar on April 03, 2012, 06:26:15 am
Well, usually Japanese uses Kanji as some sort of delimiter between words/particles. In texts with few to no kanji they often do use spaces. But anyway, it's just practice :)
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: bLind on April 04, 2012, 10:17:44 am
Damn it ! Most programs that I downloaded like asm68k, nemesis searcher, and others, just don't work on my PC, they just open command prompt for some fractions of a second and nothing happens !
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: Auryn on April 04, 2012, 10:53:37 am
well, if this are your problems, then this project is sure not for you!
http://bit.ly/HkL3jK (http://bit.ly/HkL3jK)
http://bit.ly/HkLjzh (http://bit.ly/HkLjzh)

I am sorry but I am out of here, I don't have time for babysitting.
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: bLind on April 04, 2012, 11:40:37 am
^LoL^
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: goldenband on April 04, 2012, 02:58:11 pm
bLind, I don't think you have the technical knowledge to hack this ROM, but maybe it'd be helpful if you could put together a well-organized document with all the Japanese-language text you can find in the game.  It won't be the same as a script dump directly from the ROM, but it's a place to start.

You can use the websites I linked earlier, which have item lists & some of the text, and also use nciku.com to draw kanji (it's a Chinese website, but worked for almost all the kanji I tried).

It'd just be a pity to lose the (tiny) bit of momentum we've gotten, since this seems like a nifty game well worth translating.
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: bLind on April 04, 2012, 05:17:53 pm
^ I said form the start that I don't have any hacking "skills", and this is in the newcomers board, isn't it !? And learning programing languages now... well... now I can't ! Tho' I understand what he meant, and apreciate what he's done... I don't like Auryn's attitude, it's not like anyone forced him do to anything !
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: goldenband on April 04, 2012, 06:28:36 pm
bLind, the thing is, there are a lot of people who come through a site like this, say "I want to hack a ROM!", but who don't have technical skills, foreign language skills, or the willingness to work hard and figure stuff out for themselves.  If you have at least one of those three things, then people are usually supportive, but otherwise it ends up being "Hack this ROM for me!"

Not knowing how to use a program that runs in DOS is a little like applying for a job as a mechanic, and then asking "What's a carburetor?"  It's a very basic task.  It's OK not to know that -- we all have to learn sometime -- but if you're giving up in frustration so quickly and saying "It doesn't work on my PC", then it suggests that you're not really willing to put the hard work in to learn.  And it's usually a waste of time to help someone if they're not willing to work hard.

Anyway, I'll reiterate what I said before: if you want to see this game translated, then you can start by transcribing as much of the Japanese-language script as possible into a document.  I've been plugging phrases into Google Translate, and while it's no translation, at least now I know what the basic plot of the game is, and what the items are.  Don't try to "hack" the game;  it's too hard for you, and too hard for me.

Or, if you really want to get experience hacking a ROM, then you could try a simpler system like the NES or SG-1000.  I've translated two SG-1000 games (one well and one poorly), and it's much, much easier than this stuff.
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: bLind on April 05, 2012, 05:45:00 am
Have you translated some of the games writings ? Do you have them in a .txt file or something ? Or you just used them as you said just for information about the game's subject ? I never said I'm giving up !
I'm having a hard time with the kanji's, because of the small size I can't identify the strokes (I'm gonna try the pages you recommended)... ow... and if some of them are names, I can't figure them out (the names, like Nobunaga's name I would have translated it as it's meaning not as a name... LoL :D ) !
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: Auryn on April 05, 2012, 01:22:06 pm
Thanks Goldenband for understanding me.

@bLind: my attitude is not to be an asshole or such but hacking requires a lot of time and the desire to inspect all aspects of a game. When you said the program just open and close, it made me see that you don't have this desire.
I can accept that you are new to this, that you don't know about your window being based on dos because you are too young but if you had that desire I was talking about before, you had at least tried to ask google "why does a program open and close in window?" or "command prompt in window". With the first one, about the 4rd answer is the answer you needed; with the second one it's the first answer. The lazy way would have been to ask in the forum: "why does the command prompt window open/close immediately??" (this probably would had created the same reaction by me because it shows you don't have that desire again).
Even if this is not my project, I spend more or less 2-3 hours trying the different compression the program i used in different points of the rom. In some cases the decompression was successful but nothing useful showed up.
The point is: why do I have to spend time trying to help you solve your problems if you are not ready to do the same??
Last but not least, if you really want to learn, the best way is to learn by yourself :)
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: EarlJ on April 05, 2012, 11:06:27 pm
For what it's worth, I've been around the community more or less as a lurker for over a decade, and that's about the gentlest I've ever seen that put.

As goldenband was saying, whatever you can make progress on, do that. Banging your head against a wall on stuff you can't get anywhere with is just going to cause frustration with nothing to show for it. At the very least, having a document with some translated bits in it will make playing through the game a little less obnoxious for you.
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: goldenband on April 06, 2012, 01:09:08 am
Thanks for your posts, Auryn and EarlJ.

@bLind: Here's what I have in my notes.  All translations are from Google Translate, and should be taken with a big grain of salt.

The headings at the top of the screen:

left side - 銭 - money
right side - 体力 - stamina

In the first town:

Shop #1: いらっしゃいませ. 何かお求めになりますか?  (May I help you? Would you like to purchase something?)

If you choose no (いいえ):

ありがとうございました! (Thank you!)

If you choose yes (はい), then the shopkeeper asks 何かお求めになりますか? again, and your options are:

火 の 槍 - spear of fire
狼風の弓 - wind bow of wolf
昇龍剣 - rising dragon sword?
鎖帷子 - something else, not sure what

I didn't try to work it all out, but here are some "can't buy this" responses I got at various times:

お金が足りませんよ! - I don't have enough money!
あなたには装備できませんのでお売りできません. - not sure, something about selling equipment
もうお持ちになっ ていますよ! - something about having more?

I didn't check the shop in the third house carefully, but if you don't buy anything, the guy says:

またご利用下さい. (Is this "please come again"?)

The last house in the first town says:

この辺りの奴らはみんな信長の手先じゃ. - Well, guys in this area are all minions of Nobunaga.

Finally, as you're leaving town, the sign overhead says:

出口 - Exit

Meanwhile, there's all the text from the introduction, which is linked at the website I posted earlier.  I might edit my post to add those in a bit...

------

OK, here's the full introduction to the game, as gleaned from a combination of the two websites I posted earlier.  Again, all translations are very crude renditions from Google Translate, and await a qualified translator.

(http://i41.tinypic.com/2iw3c6h.png)

時は戦国、権力者信長は重税と戦乱で民衆を苦しめていた。

(When Sengoku, Nobunaga those in power had suffered heavy taxes and the people in the war.)

(http://i41.tinypic.com/1933vc.png)

ある日、羽尾の国の海岸に1隻の難破した南蛮船が漂着した。
その船の中に負傷した乗組員ジョンと3歳の男の子が生き残っていた。

(One day, barbarian ship was wrecked vessels on the coast of a country of Hao has been shipwrecked.
3-year-old boy John and crew were injured in the ship that it had survived.)

(http://i42.tinypic.com/20hv9zo.png)

忍者 「影刃」 は2人を助けたが、
ジョンは「信長におそわれた。」
と言い残し死んだ。

("Ha" shadow ninja, but to help two people, John "was attacked by Nobunaga". Leaving those words and dead.)

(http://i44.tinypic.com/287jbpc.png)

それから12年、影刃は子供を忍者「武雷」として育てた。

(12 years since it was brought up as a shadow blade "Takeshi thunder" Ninja children.)

(http://i39.tinypic.com/33y6po5.png)

影刃は年をとり、死を悟り武雷を呼んで言った。
「武雷よ、民を苦しめている信長を倒してくれ。」
「そのために協力してくれる3人の若者を集めた。」

(Shadow blade takes a year, he called the Lightning Takeshi death enlightenment.
"I thunder Takeshi, Nobunaga defeated me that afflicts the people."
"A collection of three young men who work together to that")

(http://i43.tinypic.com/jsybl4.png)

紹介しよう。
槍の達人 権平
弓の達人 玄番
武者 右近
みんなで力をあわせ「風の軍団」となり信長を倒すのだ。

(Trying to introduce.
Master of the spear right flat
Master of the bow Gen No.
Ukon warrior
Nobunaga next, defeat the "corps of the Wind" combined force with everyone.)

(http://i43.tinypic.com/j673n6.png)

第一章 羽尾の国

(Hao country of the first chapter)

(http://i40.tinypic.com/24aoo.png)

この国の人々は信長の手先に苦しめられています。

(The people of this country have been plagued by Nobunaga's minions.)

(http://i42.tinypic.com/2ylr6ub.png)

クリア条件
敵を全員倒して下さい。

(Clear conditions
Please defeat all the enemy.)
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: RedComet on April 06, 2012, 06:51:36 pm
@bLind: Trust me. This is one of those games that's gonna require a fair amount of assembly work to give it anything even remotely resembling a quality translation, which means having a skilled translator not a kid with a dictionary. No offense.
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: Auryn on April 06, 2012, 07:39:33 pm
Apart that google translate sucks with translations especially with asian languages and especially the longer the phrase is, the more it sucks.
Anyway, if you really have to use it, here 2 tips:
-go to a new line everytime you have an empty space in a frase.
-try delete characters one by one from the left (and check each new translation) and in a second pass from the right. Like this some keywords will probably pop up that let you then translate the phrase more correctly.
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: goldenband on April 06, 2012, 11:04:32 pm
Just to be clear, my posts above aren't intended as any kind of prospective translation, and I put no significant effort into "tweaking" the Google Translate results (Auryn gives good advice on how one might do this).

Like I said, these were just taken from my own notes, and the point was just (a) to get a rough translation for playing purposes (since I own the game!) and (b) to document a small chunk of the script, and prove to myself that I could clean up the transcriptions on the websites I mentioned (mainly restoring missing kanji).  My Japanese-language skills are minimal, though I can follow some of the semantic/grammatical structures -- especially when they start using a lot of のs!  ;D

Using Google Translate to prepare a script for this game would be a travesty, though actually I'm not sure that it's all that text-heavy once you get the basics down.
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: bLind on April 07, 2012, 06:11:42 am
Come on dudes, stop it... with the "unhelping" comments !
It's a fact that I don't have the knowledge, and it's a deduction that I won't be the one hacking this rom ! And I'm not a kid !
golden was just answering my questions, It's not like he submited that as an "official" translation !
PS: I think the Nobunaga from the last 2 images it's the one from the 1980 japanese movie "Kagemusha" !
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: RedComet on April 08, 2012, 10:31:24 pm
Come on dudes, stop it... with the "unhelping" comments !
It's a fact that I don't have the knowledge, and it's a deduction that I won't be the one hacking this rom !

Then you've come to the wrong place. No offense.
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: bLind on April 09, 2012, 03:55:02 pm
^And you're orbiting the wrong topic :P !
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: KingMike on April 09, 2012, 07:06:21 pm
It sounds like he's just telling you this game is not a good choice for a beginner to try hacking.
Sorry, but some games are just harder to hack (and requiring more experience) than others.

But if you have no desire to do any hacking OR translation yourself (is that correct?), then I think this topic should be closed.
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: DarknessSavior on April 09, 2012, 07:21:29 pm
I just wanna point out the small pun in the game.

The item 昇龍剣 is pronounced Shouryuuken. Y'know, like Street Fighter? XD

~DS
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: goldenband on April 10, 2012, 06:14:03 pm
I just wanna point out the small pun in the game.

The item 昇龍剣 is pronounced Shouryuuken. Y'know, like Street Fighter? XD

Haha, that's awesome!  :D

Question: is it at all useful to future translators to have someone doing what I did above, i.e. playing through the game and transcribing (not translating) the Japanese text including kanji?  Or is it a waste of time, better left to an automated (or semi-automated) script dump?

I'll probably do it either way for my own playing purposes, but thought I'd ask.  The way I figure it, if you have some or all of the Japanese-language script ready, then maybe you can find a translator -- and if you have a partial translated script, suddenly the game becomes a more attractive choice for high-level ROM hackers.  But maybe I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: Eien Ni Hen on April 10, 2012, 11:03:59 pm

Question: is it at all useful to future translators to have someone doing what I did above, i.e. playing through the game and transcribing (not translating) the Japanese text including kanji?  Or is it a waste of time, better left to an automated (or semi-automated) script dump?

Speaking as a translator, it's a pain in the ass to go through and transcribe the text in a game. I did it a few times when I was a newbie, but never again. I personally won't work on a project if the hacker can't get me a script dump. As I see it, if a hacker can't do a script dump, how are they going to handle all of the awful, awful problems that typically crop up with re-inserting the text?
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: Klarth on April 10, 2012, 11:26:21 pm
Speaking as a translator, it's a pain in the ass to go through and transcribe the text in a game. I did it a few times when I was a newbie, but never again. I personally won't work on a project if the hacker can't get me a script dump. As I see it, if a hacker can't do a script dump, how are they going to handle all of the awful, awful problems that typically crop up with re-inserting the text?
I can't reiterate this strongly enough.  If you don't know the text system well enough to get a clean dump, you're going to have huge, unexpected problems getting it back in.  It can range from getting lucky and doing a find and replace for some mislabeled table tokens to doing a manual reformat of the entire translated script.  Especially if you can't program.
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: EarlJ on April 11, 2012, 02:18:09 am
But the question was more along the lines of 'If there's no hacker giving this a hard look already...'

Transcribing and 'translating' is a pain in the ass (I've done a bit of that myself in the past), and I imagine no one wants to work with that if they can get a decent script dump to go from. But transcribing and getting a half assed translation that way may catch the attention of a knowledgeable hacker exactly because it shows that someone gives enough of a shit about a game that they're willing to put up with that kind of pain in the ass.

On the other hand, it may get more of a 'lol what a maroon' Bugs Bunny style response.
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: bLind on April 11, 2012, 06:32:44 am
But if you have no desire to do any hacking OR translation yourself (is that correct?), then I think this topic should be closed.
I can help with the text translation, but an English speaking Japanese dude would probably do a better job that me !
The Story is the hardest one to translate corectly, the ingame commands are easier !
Soo... is it any good to make an "on the go" translation as golden said, or it's just useless ?!
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: goldenband on April 12, 2012, 03:15:46 am
Speaking as a translator, it's a pain in the ass to go through and transcribe the text in a game. I did it a few times when I was a newbie, but never again. I personally won't work on a project if the hacker can't get me a script dump.

Understood, though like EarlJ said, I'm really talking about situations where there isn't a hacker yet.  I wouldn't expect a translator (i.e. someone with real Japanese language skills) to transcribe the game text themselves.

But would someone else's transcription (partial or full) be of interest at all?  Or is it the kind of thing where if a ROM hacker isn't already on board and hasn't already dumped the full script, you're not interested in getting involved?

I guess it all comes down to "If you're interested in playing a game in English, but don't have the hacking skills to do it yourself, how do you help get the ball rolling?  What can you do that would actually be helpful?"  And maybe the answer is "You don't, and nothing."

But I'd like to think that having some part of a translation "in the can" might make a project more attractive to prospective hackers (especially since a lot of projects stall because they don't have a translator on board).  And having a partial transcription would, in turn, give a translator something to begin working on.  And there are a lot of people like me who aren't qualified as translators, but have enough Japanese-language ability to at least make a transcription, look up kanji, and so forth.

Actually, how do script dumpers handle kanji?  I understand how they deal with kana, since that's reasonably standardized.  But if you're dumping a script and don't speak Japanese -- and there's no appropriate pre-existing table file -- wouldn't a transcription be helpful, since you'd be able to just copy the relevant kanji from the transcription into your table (rather than dealing with radical lookup tables or OCR)?  Or is there some newer, shinier way of dealing with it that I don't know about?
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: Vehek on April 12, 2012, 03:59:50 am
Actually, how do script dumpers handle kanji?  I understand how they deal with kana, since that's reasonably standardized.  But if you're dumping a script and don't speak Japanese -- and there's no appropriate pre-existing table file -- wouldn't a transcription be helpful, since you'd be able to just copy the relevant kanji from the transcription into your table (rather than dealing with radical lookup tables or OCR)?  Or is there some newer, shinier way of dealing with it that I don't know about?
The way I've seen it done here is that they rip the font graphics, getting all the kanji and symbols at once. Then ask people to help identify the kanji. Transcriptions require you to see the line in-game, and you might miss some kanji which only appears in an obscure line.
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: Eien Ni Hen on April 13, 2012, 12:46:20 am
Understood, though like EarlJ said, I'm really talking about situations where there isn't a hacker yet.  I wouldn't expect a translator (i.e. someone with real Japanese language skills) to transcribe the game text themselves.

But would someone else's transcription (partial or full) be of interest at all?  Or is it the kind of thing where if a ROM hacker isn't already on board and hasn't already dumped the full script, you're not interested in getting involved?

The second thing. 99% of the time I'm not interested in working on a project unless there's a script dump.

And kanji IDing is so much fun. Identifying and typing out kanji until you're half-blind.  :woot!: (Really though, it's not that bad.)
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: RedComet on April 14, 2012, 11:13:17 am
^And you're orbiting the wrong topic :P !

Yes, because I've probably got more experience working with the Genesis than most of the other hackers who hang their hat around here and I've also had this game on my to-do list for years now, so I know more than a little something about it. Clearly, trying to persuade you to spend your time and energy else where on something more productive since you obviously have neither the skill nor the desire to learn how to hack this game properly is the wrong thing to do. I'm just trying to save you a lot of headaches and frustration by telling you that it's not an easy game to hack for a newbie and that you seem to have a lot of misunderstandings about the way the entire process works.
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: goldenband on April 14, 2012, 08:01:12 pm
I've also had this game on my to-do list for years now, so I know more than a little something about it.

Well, if nothing else this thread has shown you that when the day comes that you're ready to start work on NBD, you'll have a lot of people eagerly awaiting the results.  :D

BTW is your avatar's caption taken from Art of Fighting?  It just reminds me of Jack's victory celebration from that game...
Title: Re: Translation help: Ninja Burai Densetsu (sega gen) !
Post by: RedComet on April 25, 2012, 07:25:02 pm
BTW is your avatar's caption taken from Art of Fighting?  It just reminds me of Jack's victory celebration from that game...

Nah. My avatar is from Theme Hospital when one of the patients has "The Squits". The caption is just something that popped into my head when I saw the patients run to the bathroom in the game. I know. Comedy gold, right? 8)