Romhacking.net

Romhacking => Newcomer's Board => Topic started by: Jonesy47 on July 31, 2011, 01:31:01 am

Title: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: Jonesy47 on July 31, 2011, 01:31:01 am
Ok, so I have been hacking the original metal gear for the NES, namely for a few palette changes and to actually add metal gear into the game, as opposed to the super computer thing.

I have changed all the sprites and dialogue as well as made the pallete changes I wanted but how exactly does one figure out how to level edit using only a hex editor?

I literally drew a recreation of the last room I wanted to hack, found the address for each tile using nesticle and the pattern table, and then searched for the room in a hex editor, entering each tile in manually but cannot find the last room for the life of me.

How do I find a particular room in metal gear for the nes?

edit: if i can figure out how to level edit, next on the list is to recreate metal gear 2 into snake's revenge for the nes! I have a majority of THOSE sprites done as well.

July 31, 2011, 04:00:20 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Update: Okay, in fceux, i can find the room in the ppu memory, tile by tile. I edited it in the fceux hex editor and saved but no luck. It didnt even save the changes past me loading into the menu screen and back again.

So, i know where the level information is by ppu address. How does this translate to a regular offset address in a hex editor?
Is there a hex editor that allows me to edit the rom file the way it is seen in ppu memory?

Any help would be much appreciated, thanks!
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: snarfblam on July 31, 2011, 12:04:31 pm
This kind of data isn't normally in such a straightforward format. Usually there is some kind of compression going on since ROM space was so limited in the NES days. When the level data is loaded and processed, it ends up in the PPU in its uncompressed form, but this isn't something you can edit and save. You need to reverse-engineer the level data format and work with that.

I personally recommend using FCEUX for these things. It has a number of helpful debugging features. For example, you can use the "NameTable Viewer" to get the tile numbers for the tiles that are showing on the screen, instead of working it out manually, and you can use the hex editor to search and modify the ROM while the game is playing.

Disassembling can be a very effective approach, but, of course, you need to be familiar with assembly to take this route.

You can also make some educated guesses about how the data might be stored. Experience helps here. Using the very first screen as an example, if you look in the nametable viewer in the third row down of the trees in the top-left corner, the tiles go 1B 20 0F 0F. Searching the ROM in a hex editor (not the RAM if you use FCEUX) for this sequence of bytes shows one match, at 0x11d8a. I started modifying the data and it quickly became obvious to me that level data is stored in 4x4 blocks of tiles. You can tell that these blocks are reused because changing one block can affect multiple similar parts of the screen. I'm betting the same blocks are used on multiple screens. This re-use is our "compression".

Spoiler:

The changes are shown in red in the hex editor.

(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12027218/Shared%20Images/AutoDrop/autodrop9.png)

Presumably, each screen would be composed of these 4x4 blocks. Knowing this, we can assume each screen is defined by a list of "block indecies" that specifies which blocks to use. To me, the easiest way to find this block-index data is to do a relative search.

You can modify the blocks so they are easy to identify. For example, change one block to all "A"s (tile $81). Change the next block to all "B"s, the next "C"s, and so on. Once you change a good number of blocks, and then start the game, you should get something like this (I screwed up a bit, but you can still see that each block is composed mostly of one letter):
Spoiler:
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12027218/Shared%20Images/AutoDrop/autodrop10.png)
In the third row of blocks you can see blocks in the following order: G, L, C, L, H. This is what you can search for. Using a hex editor that supports relative searching, search for "GLCLH". This will show you where the screen's block index data is.

In order to edit a screen you'll need to work with these 4x4 blocks of tiles. You can edit the 4x4 blocks, but these changes will be reflected in multiple places in multiple screens. You can try to edit this data in hex form, but that sounds a bit unreasonable to me. Making even a very crude level editor would help immensely.
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: Jonesy47 on August 03, 2011, 03:58:42 am
Ok, so I've gotten metal gear in the game. I redid the stupid nes super-computer sprites into the msx metal gear sprites (with a color or two sacrificed) and  reordered the tiles in a hex editor  BUUUUUUT....

(http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7748/mg1t20.png)

As you can see, there are some problems.
The only real problem im having right now is figuring out how to keep tile sets from repeating themselves. Ive found the room in hex and there is nothing in the code to specify that the tile should show up three times in a row so where is this information hidden? Two tile sets repeat three times and totally ruin the effect of metal gear.
The room info starts at offset 12a40.
The top left part of metal gear that repeats starts at 12ab0
the bottom left part of metal gear starts at 12ad0
I cant seem to crack this and any help would be much appreciated!
Also, I need to learn how to edit the tsa of tiles because that whole top half of the screen is stuck with a blue black white pallette when it should preferably have a gray black white. You also cant see it, but the blue is actually flashing also. Ive read a few tutorials on the subject of tsa editing but so far, no luck... :-[

The only other thing I would want to do after this would be position metal gear in the center of the screen if possible.

Anyways, as always, any help is much appreciated.
Thank you so much already! Without your help, i never wouldve gotten this far this fast!

Also, as far as the conversion of snakes revenge to metal gear 2 goes...
(http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/5127/mg2t1.png)

(http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/1574/mg2t2.png)

(http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/904/mg2t3.png)

(http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/9991/mg2t4.png)

But there is a LOT of work ahead of me. Learning how to make room for more script is a must if im going to try and make this faithful at all.
Also, just to clarify, pointers are what tell the game what to throw at you, as far as goals, enemy types, placements and quantities, ammo and such, right? I need to learn about those also...anyways, wish me luck and thank you for your help so far!
Title: Re: Best ways to locate map data?
Post by: Jonesy47 on August 13, 2011, 03:03:30 am
As far as tiles go, where should i even go to learn where to tell the game where to repeat them? Is that pointer info, asm, or what?

You also gave me the advice to make a rudimentary level editor when you helped me with Metal Gear. Where should i start on that? I downloaded the source for editroid and while i know enough to recognize it as code, I dont think I know enough to adapt it to my game (in my case, metal gear). Is there any advice you could give me aside from just jump head first into C+, like what type of program I should try and learn how to write. Probably some sort of graphical display program but yet again, i havent the slightest as to where to start. Any help would be much appreciated!
Title: Re: Re: Best ways to locate map data?
Post by: snarfblam on August 13, 2011, 01:54:55 pm
Do you have any experience programming? While I might recommend you learn a programming language, you aren't going to be saving yourself time learning C# to hack one game. If you do have some programming experience, though, I can help you get something started.
Title: Re: Re: Best ways to locate map data?
Post by: Jonesy47 on August 13, 2011, 02:20:59 pm
I have a LITTLE bit of java experience. Simple programs are as far as I got and my knowledge was just on the verge of generating graphics so Im still very much a beginner but I do have SOME coding experience.
I understand writing code, but like I said, the commands in your editroid source were very foreign to me. I could basically make out that it WAS code and it was asking for info from certain offsets of Metroid and that was about all I could understand.

I have the feeling though, based on the nature of Metroid vs the nature of Metal Gear, Metal Gear would be a much easier game to write a level editor for if only because Metal Gear is a set of static screens and Metroid is a game that scrolls horizontally and vertically.

If you really could help me begin learning based on my previous coding experience, I would appreciate the help! This would help out quite a bit considering I have a LOT of game modification ideas in mind, Metal Gear just being the most simple.

oh, and...

To expand on what Gil Galad was saying, nametables are not stored in the rom file at all.  Only the patterns tables are (assuming CHR-ROM).  The game code writes to the nametables at runtime, so you are going to have to find the asm routines that draw to the nametables.  These routines will read data from PRG-ROM, decompress it, and then write it to the nametables.  You find these routines by using a debugger and setting breakpoints like Gil Galad was saying.

is this "the hard way" to edit levels? Finding/changing ASM routines?
I also noticed that Metal Gear has no vrom sooooo...would this even apply to me?

*sigh*...i swear, this sites makes me feel like a retard daily...in the good way, of course.
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: snarfblam on August 13, 2011, 08:48:34 pm
Well, if you're interested in downloading C# express (unless you already have it), I threw together a real Q&D level editor using the info I posted above. All it does is change blocks when you click on them. (Making the program more useful would be up to you.)

(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12027218/Shared%20Images/GearTool.png)

http://snarfblam.com/files/GearTool.zip
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: Jonesy47 on August 13, 2011, 11:02:13 pm
HOLY CRAP!

 Dude, this is the best! I know its not a full-fledged editor (yet!) but, damnit if im not going to get this to do SOMETHING more after you going through this much effort to help me out!

By the way, If this does turn into a fully fledged editor, your name is going first in the credits, snarfblam! Thank you again so much! Ill keep you posted on what sort of progress I make. Once this is done, Metal Gear for the NES is finally going to reflect its MSX counterpart more accurately!

Things on the (possible) to-do list:

_1. Finish this editor or at least make it more functional.
_2. Apply final touches to Metal Gear.
_3. Change starting area to match msx version.
_3. Switch Trucks from horizontal to vertical.
_4. Add Snake's face to the tranciever screen.
_5. Change pallette's per building.

Things on the (probably impossible) to-do list:
_1. Make the air troopers on the roof fly.
_2. Add the parachute to the game.
_3. Add a few songs.

August 13, 2011, 11:31:32 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Edit: How do i download Romulus.nes and implement it as a class in C# express? In netbeans, i usually just used the classes  that were already available to me. I'm trying to publish the code you've just given me (just to see what I have to work with right now) and it says that Im missing all sorts of classes and structs from Romulus.nes so....i feel stupid, but how do I find and use these missing classes and structs? Ive found seemingly a list of all the needed classes on your website, snarfblam.com but cant see a way to download them and am very confused. Ill keep researching but if you can help, thank you yet again.
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: snarfblam on August 13, 2011, 11:58:18 pm
Oh wow. My mistake. I accidentally deleted the needed DLLs when I wiped the /bin folder. I've updated the zip. Give it another whirl.

http://snarfblam.com/files/GearTool.zip
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: Jonesy47 on August 14, 2011, 01:23:08 am
Another quick question.
How are you identifying those offsets?
The patterns offset is for the pattern table.
The tile block offset is the offset for the beginning of the room you want to edit.
I also know that the layout offset is where they specify which tile to use but how did you know which layout offset was the beginning of the game?Id like to be able to identify another room by offset without having to trial and error through a hex editor.

Also, where are the pallette offsets located?

The thing I would like to know most is how you knew which room uses which layout offset. That would be very useful.
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: snarfblam on August 14, 2011, 10:58:43 am
Well... this is what hacking is all about.

Finding the pattern offsets was simple. Metal Gear seems to have all the patterns stored in complete 256-tile pattern tables in the ROM, so all I did is open Tile Layer Pro and find the pattern table I was looking for. (A lucky break since many games have their pattern tables all chopped up.)

Finding the palettes was also simple. I used FCEUX's PPU viewer to look at the palettes in-game (when you hover over a palette entry, it shows you the hex value). Then I searched the ROM for those palette entries.

The tile block offset tells us where the tile block table is. I'm guessing that within each level, every screen uses the same tile block table, but I could be wrong. When you say "beginning of the room" I'm concerned you may misunderstand. Tile blocks don't really define a room per-se. They define the graphic objects used to build the rooms. The layout data specifies which tile blocks to use in each screen.

As for how I found the tile blocks and the layout data, that is exactly what I was describing in my first post. It can be a bit of a process, but that's the nature of the beast.


However: Now you have the offsets of some of the data. Life can be made easier if we can find some pointer tables.

If you know how to convert between offsets and pointers you can search the ROM for the pointers to this data. (If you don't know how to do the conversion, I'm sure you can find a tutorial on NES pointers in RHDN's documents.) For example, our layout data is located at 0x14211. In pointer form, that's $8201 ( (14211 - 10) % 4000 + 8000 = 8201). If you search the ROM for 01 82 (the bytes of a pointer are stored in reverse order on an NES) you'll find multiple matches. The first match is at 14011.

If we change the value at 14011 our screen glitches. This is a good indicator that this is our layout pointer. Looking at the bytes in the area, it's pretty clear we are looking at a pointer table. I'll tell you right now that I don't know what all the pointer are for, but some of them are definitely pointers to layout data.
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: Jonesy47 on August 14, 2011, 04:35:21 pm
Alright, so, since my last post, I now understand more (thanks to just messing around and thanks to snarfblam, of course).

First off, how did you get Tile Layer Pro to tell you offsets per tile? I had to use yy-chr to get the offsets listed (not to mention, tile layer pro displays metal gears sprites very strangely whereas, in yy-chr, if you press the "+" button 2 or 3 times, the sprites right themselves. Oh well, thats actually pretty off topic. I was just wondering.

I also have the palettes figured out now.

You're also right about the tile block offsets as far as each area using the same tile block table for the most part. MOST of the game works like that with a few exceptions, the room with metal gear in it being one, but honestly, thats no problem.

The layout data is the weird part. Based on the layout data you've given, room one starts at offset 14211. Messing around in hex, I've found a few rooms offsets.

Room1
14211-14240
Room2
14331-14360
Room3
143F1-14420

Each room is 29 values long but I cant figure out what the information is in between the rooms or why there is so much difference in size between the rooms.

I am currently searching for the room inhabiting metal gear's layout offset. I know the rest of the info.

Metal Gear Room
Patterns Offset: C11A
Pallette Offset: N/A (for now)
Tile Block Offset: 12A40
Layout Offset: ???

In the state you gave me the gear tool, it is easy enough to change the rooms just by changing 4x4 tiles. It would at least accomplish the original goal of inserting metal gear in the game.

August 14, 2011, 10:46:02 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
I finally found the metal gear room layer offset!

After the effort, now the NES version of Metal Gear actually HAS Metal Gear in it.

BEFORE
(http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/4711/metalgear46.png)

AFTER
(http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/5683/metalgear38.png)

His eyeball in the middle blinks red and white even!

for reference, this is the original MSX version
(http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/1228/mgmsx.jpg)



Well, im pretty glad I at least accomplished the MAIN goal i set out to accomplish, but now I have geartool...and this urge to really dick around with it until its something legit...

I think about it and REALLY have a ton of other projects in the back of my head but, the way i figure, if i can learn to make level editors then the rest of my projects will only benefit from the skills i acquire.

Oh, and thank you so much, snarfblam! You made this possible! Without your help, id be stuck with the ugly repeating 4x4 tiles everywhere. Your knowledge really helps people so dont stop giving helpful hints and advice.
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: snarfblam on August 16, 2011, 06:51:18 pm
Glad to see you got it sorted out! And glad I could help.
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: Jedi QuestMaster on August 16, 2011, 08:10:44 pm

AFTER
(http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/5683/metalgear38.png)

I've gotta say, awesome job here! :thumbsup:

I always wondered why this was taken away from the NES game.

Say, it wouldn't be possible to put those laser cameras in there, would it? :o
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: Jonesy47 on August 17, 2011, 02:14:48 pm
Yeah, I actually KNOW I could do that.
The Metal Gear room was weird in the way that it seemed to be setup for the original metal gear but they gave up or something. It has a pattern table all to itself ( i cant seem to find any of the sprite data from the last room anywhere else in the game, tho some areas repeat the sprite data in different pattern tables for different sections of the game.

That, mixed with the fact that it has four guys initially in the room right off the bat means the original developers claim that there wasnt enough memory left in the game for metal gear a complete lie.

But yeah, since the 4 guys are initially in there, all i would have to do is change pointer data to request two cameras instead of four guys and then mount them behind metal gear BUT, i dont quite understand the pointer data, YET.
Odds are, i could easily do it by finding a room with two cameras and comparing it to Metal Gear rooms data, experimenting along the way until I gots cameras in that room. Also, i mixed up the tile data while in the process of putting metal gear together, and now you lay the explosives on his eyeball instead of his feet but Im sure I could change that back easily enough.

Right now, I've kind of been sucked into the world of decompressing and recompressing snes graphic data, but holy GAWD is that a completely different ballgame of skill level.

It's becoming blatantly obvious over the course of the past few weeks that Im gonna have to brush up on my programming knowledge. Luckily, C# seems fairly similar to java so I might be ok in the long run.

Anyways, yeah, its completely possible to add the cameras and add almost all the stuff still on the MSX but not NES list. As to WHEN i could accomplish this, who knows.

By the way, does anyone think this patch would be worth submitting to rhdn? I will if anyone really wants this thing.
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: Jedi QuestMaster on August 20, 2011, 10:30:14 pm
The Metal Gear room was weird in the way that it seemed to be setup for the original metal gear but they gave up or something.
Probably laziness. >:(

Is there any evidence that this was one of the last rooms they worked on?  It's such a shame, because a good deal of the game was left intact.  Many "little things" here & there tore away at the experience, but this was the nail in the coffin.

I think you should submit it to RHDN.  Even if you make changes afterward, you can update it.
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: xttx on December 13, 2011, 04:01:02 pm
im sorry to raise the dead here, just wondering where i can find this, if it is even out? this project is great work and i hope you are still working on it jonesy. :)
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: roxalot on June 25, 2012, 07:54:35 pm
Probably laziness. >:(

Is there any evidence that this was one of the last rooms they worked on?  It's such a shame, because a good deal of the game was left intact.  Many "little things" here & there tore away at the experience, but this was the nail in the coffin.

I think you should submit it to RHDN.  Even if you make changes afterward, you can update it.

Please excuse the bump... But I was wondering if there's any update on this?

The NES port is not a matter of laziness. I read from an interview with the NES Metal Gear's director, that they were given about 3 months to port the MSX game to NES.  Moreso, the Metal Gear and its battle weren't feasible on the NES with the limited resources they had; of course, because of the tight deadline, they couldn't even reduce it to an appreciable level and were forced to replace the battle entirely. So it's basically limited resources and tight deadline.
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: RetroProf on November 04, 2012, 06:22:43 am
Has there been any progress on this?

I searched the RHDN database and couldn't find any MG or Snake's Revenge hacks. Both games are my two favourites on the NES (I prefer them over Zelda, Metroid, SMB3, whatever else is popular), and so I'm keen to revisit them with a fresh lick of paint (I'd love to see a very basic hack which removes the jungle maze).

I'm also getting a Powerpak next week, so am loading up on ROMhacks.

Did the author of this lose interest? Is someone else taking up the reigns? How easy would it be to remove the jungle maze using the above tool?

I'm just keen to see what can be done.

Also...

Probably laziness. >:(

Is there any evidence that this was one of the last rooms they worked on?  It's such a shame, because a good deal of the game was left intact.  Many "little things" here & there tore away at the experience, but this was the nail in the coffin.

As mentioned by the preceding poster, I think that's an unfair accusation to make. MG for the NES was ported by a fresh graduate in three months - and they weren't allowed to use decent mappers. Interview here:

http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/metalgear/masahiroueno.htm

Quote
This was simply due to the hardware limitations. It's probably possible to implement the robot if we had used a better [mapper] chip such as the VRC4, but it was not available for us back then.
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: xttx on November 21, 2012, 07:57:59 pm
Yes, still very much hoping that this is still here. Even if you decided not to finish it i would love to play it jonesy. Really hoping to hear back from you.  8)
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: xttx on June 11, 2013, 08:16:59 pm
edit*

Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: xttx on March 15, 2014, 08:58:00 pm
I know it has been a while and nothing has been said of this. Just wondering if the author is willing to at least share some of his work so it can be picked up and/or at least continued.

All apologies all for the bump, just hoping the op sees this and is willing to share an update, that is all.  To be clear im not asking for a release date, demo etc, just would like to try to help make sure this project continues on.

Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: mrrichard999 on July 01, 2014, 02:13:19 am
Hey what happened with this project? It looks like it had promise!  :woot!:
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: xttx on July 04, 2014, 04:33:25 pm
Hello Jonesy,

My offer still stands through the pms i have sent that i would love to help you keep this project going and see it make it out to the masses.

You did one awesome job and it would be a shame to see this project die off without seeing the light of day. Please feel free to pm or respond back.  :cookie: :) You put some time into this project and the game really looks like a great hack and great work you have done.

AS far as i know, this is the first legit metal gear hack that i have ever seen. Ive actually been watching this topic for quite some time now.
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: zstandig on July 13, 2014, 02:57:52 pm
I just wanted to say that anyone modding NES Metal Gear to be more like MSX Metal Gear is doing God's work. 
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: Jonesy47 on May 20, 2015, 01:43:48 pm
IM RESSURECTING THIS SHIZE.
Originally, I successfully hacked Metal Gear into...Metal gear but I lost all the progress before I submitted the hack (there were finishing touches I thought Id get to and then my laptop exploded) SO, years later, with further experience romhacking (not MUCH more) and a renewed vigor, I will be finishing this so I can submit and be done with it.
I hope to change MANY things to match the msx original as well.

STAY TUNED.

edit: Could a mod switch this to a Personal Projects thread?
I no longer have any questions and it has turned into a full project now!
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: VicVergil on May 21, 2015, 06:30:19 am
IM RESSURECTING THIS SHIZE.
Originally, I successfully hacked Metal Gear into...Metal gear but I lost all the progress before I submitted the hack (there were finishing touches I thought Id get to and then my laptop exploded) SO, years later, with further experience romhacking (not MUCH more) and a renewed vigor, I will be finishing this so I can submit and be done with it.
I hope to change MANY things to match the msx original as well.

STAY TUNED.

edit: Could a mod switch this to a Personal Projects thread?
I no longer have any questions and it has turned into a full project now!

That's exciting :D It's like a dream coming true, it was pretty soul-crushing this project went for a while without a release.

If you still accept suggestions, the pipe tiles, and the green-ish palette in the Metal Gear room are a bit... crude. You could go wild with creative license if you find that those palettes aren't optimal.
Title: .
Post by: Chpexo on May 21, 2015, 12:10:13 pm
.
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: xttx on May 21, 2015, 09:41:00 pm
IM RESSURECTING THIS SHIZE.
Originally, I successfully hacked Metal Gear into...Metal gear but I lost all the progress before I submitted the hack (there were finishing touches I thought Id get to and then my laptop exploded) SO, years later, with further experience romhacking (not MUCH more) and a renewed vigor, I will be finishing this so I can submit and be done with it.
I hope to change MANY things to match the msx original as well.

STAY TUNED.

edit: Could a mod switch this to a Personal Projects thread?
I no longer have any questions and it has turned into a full project now!

Excellent, excellent news my friend! I have been following this thread for quite some time, as a matter of fact it's one of the reasons why i ever signed up in the first place. Please do keep us posted and can't wait to see what you do. Looking back at what you have done already it's great work!  :crazy:
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: MethidMan on July 04, 2015, 10:55:36 pm
Really looking forward to this~ I always thought it was unfortunate that the Metal Gear itself didn't show up in the game.
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: viparas on September 10, 2015, 10:05:10 pm
I just came across this while trying to find any improvement hacks that might have already been made for the game (there really is only the Personal Area Network hack unfortuately) This project is very exciting and I hope it comes to fruition! I will definitely be keeping an eye on the thread and front page for updates. Speaking of the PAN hack, is it likely with your changes to the game, that the PAN hack will not function? It is quite nice not having to shuffle cards constantly looking for the right one while choking on gas / getting shot / etc
.
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: obscurumlux01 on September 10, 2015, 11:02:44 pm
Four years later, heh.

I feel it is only fitting considering we've got the MGS5 release still on our minds at this point in time and the series is (for all intents and purposes) complete.
If you have a PS3 you can grab the entire 'Metal Gear Legacy Collection' which has EVERY game including the two original MSX ports of Metal Gear 1 & 2 from Japan (but translated).
If you have a 360 you are stuck with the 'Metal Gear HD Collection' which is missing MGS1 & VR Missions as well as MSG4.

If you have neither?  There's always emulation of the PS2 version of MGS3 or the native PC port of MGS3 with some bonus stuff called MGS3 Subsistence (or something like that).

Btw Jonesy, you are treading dangerously into plagiarism territory with that 'foxhound' icon (https://anony.ws/i/2015/09/11/foxbunny.png) looking like a hack of the 'Super Bunnyhop' logo (http://superbunnyhop.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/SBH_Wallpaper720p.png) that was created by Satchell Drakes (http://superbunnyhop.com/about).

Unless you explicitly contacted Satchell Drakes and asked them for permission to use their modified artwork without attribution, then that is pretty clear plagiarism there.

Please be sure you mind your manners and attribute properly when you 'borrow' stuff from other people using stuff outside the scope of the game data itself; in this case the Konami & Metal Gear brand/universe.  Importing stuff from the MSX game is fine since it is within Konami's thing but when you start ripping off others and claim credit for it, then that becomes a bit scummy.
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: mrrichard999 on September 11, 2015, 12:18:39 am
Doesn't look like Jonesey is doing anything wrong. Looks like an exact pull from the MSX version.

(http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/119783-metal-gear-2-solid-snake-msx-screenshot-the-fox-appears-whenever.gif)(http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/904/mg2t3.png)
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: Seihen on September 11, 2015, 12:28:57 am
Btw Jonesy, you are treading dangerously into plagiarism territory with that 'foxhound' icon (https://anony.ws/i/2015/09/11/foxbunny.png) looking like a hack of the 'Super Bunnyhop' logo (http://superbunnyhop.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/SBH_Wallpaper720p.png) that was created by Satchell Drakes (http://superbunnyhop.com/about).

Unless you explicitly contacted Satchell Drakes and asked them for permission to use their modified artwork without attribution, then that is pretty clear plagiarism there.

Please be sure you mind your manners and attribute properly when you 'borrow' stuff from other people using stuff outside the scope of the game data itself; in this case the Konami & Metal Gear brand/universe.  Importing stuff from the MSX game is fine since it is within Konami's thing but when you start ripping off others and claim credit for it, then that becomes a bit scummy.

That logo was in the original game.
http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/c/ce/MG2_Fox_Logo.png/450px-MG2_Fox_Logo.png

Perhaps you should do your research before accusing others of ripping off someone else's material. In fact, I think Satchell Drakes needs to explain himself and why he's ripping off Konami's work from the 90s.
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: obscurumlux01 on September 11, 2015, 01:53:56 am
I confirmed your source from a more reliable source on MobyGames (http://www.mobygames.com/game/msx/metal-gear-2-solid-snake/screenshots/gameShotId,119783/).

You are indeed correct in your regard and I didn't do the proper research on the game ahead of time.  I'd presumed that logo had been added in by the rom modification rather than a native part of the game itself.

And yeah, Satchell Drakes does need to answer for his plagiarism.  I'll get right on it and they will hear from me (and possibly Konami themselves).
Attribution is all part of Fair Use.  If someone fails to properly attribute the works of others that have been used, then they tread the line straight over to plagiarism.  They get no sympathy from me.
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: dACE on September 11, 2015, 04:38:58 am
Quote
Unless you explicitly contacted Satchell Drakes and asked them for permission to use their modified artwork without attribution, then that is pretty clear plagiarism there.

Yeah - and every rom-hacker will of course seek out all the original creators (or their next of kin) and kindly ask for their permission to do whatever to their original work BEFORE they even consider a rom-hack.

That is not what rom-hacking is about - it is literally in the name. Hacking is, after all, short for hijacking - something that rarely is associated with consent.

/dACE
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: obscurumlux01 on September 11, 2015, 11:22:32 pm
Yeah - and every rom-hacker will of course seek out all the original creators (or their next of kin) and kindly ask for their permission to do whatever to their original work BEFORE they even consider a rom-hack.
That is not what rom-hacking is about - it is literally in the name. Hacking is, after all, short for hijacking - something that rarely is associated with consent.
/dACE

Hacking isn't short for 'hijacking'.  Where the hell did you come up with that?
Back in ye olden days before you could 'surf the Information SuperHighway' on AOL and CompuServe there were the 'Ma Bell' Phone Phreakers which were the pregenitors to the current hacking scene.
Later on, it morphed into the dem0scene (which is still around today) focused on demonstrations of coding and artistic skill within very strict size/duration/language limits and what we think of as hackers which are people knowledgeable about computers at detailed level to manipulate them for specific purposes.  You have your white-hats and your black-hats.

As far as rom hacking, it is implied that you are changing something that 'belongs' to someone else under the guise of Fair Use.  When you stay within the universe and import stuff from subsequent games into older ones then that is fine (or vice versa) but when you start going outside of those limitations then you are treading into dangerous territory.

I already answered earlier that Satchell Drakes didn't create that logo and instead plagiarized it from the original artist(s) at Konami that created it.  Whether that artwork was actually done by Konami or also plagiarized from someone else (in Japan?) even earlier is unknown.  In the early days of video games, Japanese developers routinely plagiarized material from other sources including sound effects, music, graphics, palette choices, sprites, and code; it didn't matter whether it was of Japanese or non-Japanese origin.

Plagiarism in the rom hacking scene is avoided by attribution (which was my main point).  If you read the entire sentence it says 'unless you contacted X and asked them for permission to use their modified artwork WITHOUT ATTRIBUTION'.  Meaning if you want to use it without permission then you have to attribute it.  It is good manners to do so, both here in the rom hacking community and in other forms of 'hacking'.

Also, where do you get off quoting something that looks like this and then leaving that out of your quote?  There's a reason it had a strikethrough (the information was inaccurate).  You are doing the equivalent of 'old man yells at clouds'.

I don't know what you think of with hacking but back in the day if you were caught using another scene-group's code in your 'release' without attribution then you were raked over the coals and absolutely obliterated in the online discussions.  You were effectively blacklisted as a 'leech' and 'sellout' and you were lucky if ANYONE carried your releases or bothered to report on them anymore.  Attribution is good manners, both for fair use and for common sense.
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: Isao Kronos on September 12, 2015, 01:42:19 am
almost every single post i've seen from you is assaulting other members or being a wank, please be more respectful
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: obscurumlux01 on September 12, 2015, 07:31:20 am
almost every single post i've seen from you is assaulting other members or being a wank, please be more respectful

Please practice what you preach, Mr not-a-mod.  :P
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: henke37 on September 12, 2015, 09:18:08 am
Plagiarizing is different from copyright infringement. You can do one without doing the other.
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: RetroHelix on September 12, 2015, 10:29:36 am
Please practice what you preach, Mr not-a-mod.  :P
Hi, I'm Mr. Not-A-Mod 2. Please stop being a jerk already.

Quote from: obscurumlux01
I don't know what you think of with hacking but back in the day if you were caught using another scene-group's code in your 'release' without attribution then you were raked over the coals and absolutely obliterated in the online discussions.  You were effectively blacklisted as a 'leech' and 'sellout' and you were lucky if ANYONE carried your releases or bothered to report on them anymore.  Attribution is good manners, both for fair use and for common sense.

PS. Which scene are you talking about?
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: dougeff on September 12, 2015, 01:02:16 pm
Quote
Hacking isn't short for 'hijacking'.
 

I always thought the term was derived from the pre-computer era usage...to swing an axe at a piece of wood...with the implication that someone is working very hard on a project.

Like a programmer staying up late, hacking away at the code until it functions correctly.
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: obscurumlux01 on September 12, 2015, 03:57:56 pm
Hacking was derived from taking apart something to figure out how it works and then putting it back together.  It was more about learning how things work than anything else.  At least that's how it used to be in ye olden days of the pre-internet era.

The early pre-computer 'hackers' would be the ones who would take apart an appliance (washing machine for instance) and then put it back together or redesign it to run/work better.

The 'hacking away at a tree' is a different type of meaning.  Hacking is more than just expending effort, it is about expending productive effort for a specific mental task of learning and improvement.
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: VicVergil on September 18, 2015, 01:39:05 pm
Fitting in new stuff in a finished exectutable (the ROM) is normally impossible since it would spill over other needed stuff and overwrite it, potentially making the game unplayable.

So, people either replace existing data with data exactly the same size or smaller, or would just hook new stuff (either text/graphic/etc assets or assembly programming) then alter pointers so that the new stuff is referenced.

Of course, altering ROMs often also involves decomposig the data to individual parts to identify them, extract them, modify them separatedly and reinsert them.

This is why modders and translators of retro games have come to accept the hacker label because it fits these aspects of what they do.

Not hacker in the sense of people breaking up locks on digital safes to steal stuff - though some game publishers often use this nuance to refer to romhackers to villify them in cases they don't serve their business interests.

That said, it's shameful Jonesy47's passion for this mod many of us are eagerly expecting, is met by mean spirited messages where the obvious intent is to drag down his efforts, and it's about:
a - the mod is late
b - telling people interested in the original Metal Gear canon to go play instead the official corporate-approved shiny new non-retro legal(tm) releases
c - minimal-effort attempts to call people plagiarists and scummy thieves

And on top of that, you're trying to police what people do here?

Rom hacks are done without the consent of the original creators and publishers. These creators are aware of this and turn a blind eye over it as long as no actual ROM data or part of it (example: DQ7 script) is being distributed, in fact they even support it as it improves the visibility for their retro stuff (Square's comments on FF5 at the PS1 days, Reggie and Miyamoto on Mother 3, LunarIPS automatic hacks from niconico in Super Mario Maker...).

Even if they want to support mods openly, they are afraid iPhone clone game devs will take advantage legally from a formal authorization to use their assets. Or fear to lose the trademark due to the stupid US copyright laws.
 
This site specifically mostly deals with retro games who are for companies just bibliography footnotes and archeological relics with no intent for preservation or improvement (if they even can, considering pixel edition and retro assembly expertise has been mostly lost from the industry).

So remove that stick already and deal with it - No one is interested in high-horse riding lessons about how to reduce "(non-issues i deem now big problems) in the scene".

Your nostalgic blackout boycott of mods failing to abide by your "limitations" and being "dangerous"?
1 - it doesn't apply here : for someone trying to not to assume the weight of your mean-spirited jabs at a hardworking productive member because "i put them there but they're striked", you're sure spending a ton of time calling out a "plagiarism" problem specifically in the "scene.

Last I'm aware of, he wasn't from the "romhacking scene", that youtuber who just had a funny artwork that you deem he and all those who ever did deviantart fanart won't escape your plagiarism watcheful vengeful falcon eye and get away with it just because those company lawyers shrugged off these crimes.
(or maybe he did and your stellar research skills strike again?)

So I assume this is just you doubling down on your rude manners.

2 - this stuff is often mentioned in the readme, in the special thanks section. Casual verbal 'okay' and common courtesy is the norm. There's a culture of sharing. They don't need your bloated creative license and witchhunts/boycotts/blackouts from the good-old-days. Or arbitrary limitations that the "borrowed" assets must come from the same series - I'll use that Earthbound font wherever I like, thank you very much.

I'm rather interested in what our self-appointed policeman contributed to the romhacking scene beyond his lawmaking skills.
Title: Re: Hacking the original Metal Gear NES
Post by: Maeson on September 18, 2015, 05:29:44 pm
I'm rather interested in what our self-appointed policeman contributed to the romhacking scene beyond his lawmaking skills.

While I agree with pretty much everything you say, I think that this conversation, if it's going to continue, it would be better on a separate thread. Mostly because I don't see how this can be helpful to Jonesy47's hack, and taking the attention from it could be bad, as the author could simply lose interest if his work is going to create silly internet fights, or the attention shifts to the disputes  from his attempt to improve a game...

I mean, I think up to this point it has been "harmful" enough with the Mystery of the OC Rabbit.