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General Category => News Submissions => Topic started by: RHDNBot on May 15, 2011, 10:04:15 am

Title: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: RHDNBot on May 15, 2011, 10:04:15 am
(http://www.romhacking.net/newsimages/newsimage1117a.jpg)

Update By: Someone

Crimson Nocturnal, the group responsible for the SaGa 2 English translation, is now at its end:

Quote
Crimson Nocturnal was created to be something enjoyable and, in a way, educational for those of us that worked on the projects. Gamers getting great games that they would have never played otherwise was just an added bonus.

In the game translation community, you have three different groups of people. There are the people that get involved and do their part and are a real asset to the projects. You have the people that don't or can't be involved directly with the projects, but they sit on the sidelines and are supportive and understanding and patient. Then you have those that think that these projects are something they're entitled to, that they should get it when they want it and how they want it.

The third and last group are the real cancer of the community. You do your best to ignore them and pretend they do not exist, but in the end they're still there whining and bitching and complaining about every little thing that doesn't go their way.

These projects take a lot of time, focus, and dedication. It siphens away pretty much all of your free time and even occasionally eats into the rest of your time. The only thing that keeps you going on these projects is the enjoyment and the learning process of the projects.

Having to continually read comments about how you haven't updated enough, or released anything in X amount of time. Having to deal with people whine and complain about something that costs them nothing at all wears on you.

...


The whole message can be read at their website (http://crimson-nocturnal.com).

Relevant Link: (http://crimson-nocturnal.com/)
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: skroops on May 15, 2011, 10:51:05 am
tldr; quitting scene
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: sauyadav on May 15, 2011, 02:00:55 pm
It is sad that they have to quit but I guess its best for them. Good luck for future.
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: KaioShin on May 15, 2011, 02:13:48 pm
tldr; quitting scene

I think comments like this are exactly what got them to quit, meant sarcastic, ironic or however. Good job!
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: vivify93 on May 15, 2011, 03:56:47 pm
It's a bit unfortunate. I was looking forward to their SaGa 3 DS translation in the shadows. That's the way the cookie crumbles, though. Best of luck to them in the future in whatever endeavors they undertake.
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: ze10 on May 15, 2011, 06:15:41 pm
That's quite sad.
And also points out a problem in the translation community. I've seen quite a few (smaller) translation groups ending or giving up projects because of the same reason stated by Crimson Nocturnal. I wonder what'll happen in the future if things continue like this. We have big teams like AGTP, Transcorp and Dynamic Designs going for a long time, but we can't depend on them to translate every game we want translated. Not to mention that they won't last forever (though I hope they do last for a LOOONG time).
The smaller groups who have people willing to make quality translations, like the one SaGa 2 got, are important so that we keep having access to great games that never came to the west...
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: FallenAngel2387 on May 15, 2011, 07:20:48 pm
That's quite sad.
And also points out a problem in the translation community. I've seen quite a few (smaller) translation groups ending or giving up projects because of the same reason stated by Crimson Nocturnal. I wonder what'll happen in the future if things continue like this. We have big teams like AGTP, Transcorp and Dynamic Designs going for a long time, but we can't depend on them to translate every game we want translated. Not to mention that they won't last forever (though I hope they do last for a LOOONG time).
The smaller groups who have people willing to make quality translations, like the one SaGa 2 got, are important so that we keep having access to great games that never came to the west...

I know you mean well, but those comments in bold can be taken another way.

For the first one, it's like, where does the want end? I mean the industry just keeps cranking stuff out that, all things considered, should be better than the generations that tend to get rom translations in the first place. I'm a classic/retro gamer through and through, but I think there's more than enough options that came out in my region, before we even get into the 5th generation of gaming, let alone translations.

As for the second one, it's not important that these projects ever finish. It's cool when they do, and we have something new to play, but it is not by any means a necessity. It's a project, a hobby, for the translators/hackers involved. When it becomes "important," that's when unnecessary pressure is place on the project staff, and people start to become exactly like what they described as the "3rd group" in that message.

Entertainment should always be little more than a hobby, something to help get through a rough day, or boredom. When it becomes something more, and it becomes necessity, then you just fail at life, honestly.
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: ze10 on May 15, 2011, 09:22:07 pm
That's quite sad.
And also points out a problem in the translation community. I've seen quite a few (smaller) translation groups ending or giving up projects because of the same reason stated by Crimson Nocturnal. I wonder what'll happen in the future if things continue like this. We have big teams like AGTP, Transcorp and Dynamic Designs going for a long time, but we can't depend on them to translate every game we want translated. Not to mention that they won't last forever (though I hope they do last for a LOOONG time).
The smaller groups who have people willing to make quality translations, like the one SaGa 2 got, are important so that we keep having access to great games that never came to the west...

I know you mean well, but those comments in bold can be taken another way.

For the first one, it's like, where does the want end? I mean the industry just keeps cranking stuff out that, all things considered, should be better than the generations that tend to get rom translations in the first place. I'm a classic/retro gamer through and through, but I think there's more than enough options that came out in my region, before we even get into the 5th generation of gaming, let alone translations.

As for the second one, it's not important that these projects ever finish. It's cool when they do, and we have something new to play, but it is not by any means a necessity. It's a project, a hobby, for the translators/hackers involved. When it becomes "important," that's when unnecessary pressure is place on the project staff, and people start to become exactly like what they described as the "3rd group" in that message.

Entertainment should always be little more than a hobby, something to help get through a rough day, or boredom. When it becomes something more, and it becomes necessity, then you just fail at life, honestly.

As for your first comment, indeed, the many game options available nowadays sort of decreases the demand of rom translations.
And as for your second comment, I agree that nobody can or should force people to translate games or anything like that. What I mean is, if the person wants to give up because he lost interest in the work or real life doesn't give him free time, then fine. What annoys me is when the lack of will to work on something you like (I'm assuming that the people working in a translation group LIKES doing what they do) comes from other people diminishing the value or effort of your work. They do it EXACTLY because they don't understand what you said in your second comment.

So, to sum up what I meant to say, I know that we have many new games coming out everyday, and that there are many games for all the tastes. Just like you, I'm a retro gamer. I know that there are many games that I haven't played and that will please me and don't need a translation. However, as a retro gamer and as member of this community, I bet you've played a translated game that surpasses many of the new age games. Not in terms of graphic or sound, but in terms of "value."
The whole point of this community, in my opinion, is not simply to "add" more games to the games available (available as in a game we can fully understand it) to us. I think of it that way, we are underestimating the work all the work translatiors, hackers and everybody else do. They give us the opportunity to enjoy "new experiences from the past". For example, I waited for almost (or over) 10 years to get Mystic Ark translated. When it was, I was so thrilled, even more when I am when I buy a new game. I've beaten it twice before the translation came out and could do nothing more than speculate about what was happening. I felt like a school girl when I could finally play it in English. That's what these people, translators, hackers etc do. And I thank them.
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: aqualung on May 15, 2011, 11:57:10 pm
My two cents (sorry if i'm unable to explain exactly what I want or some parts are misunderstood, English is not my first language after all. But I'll do my best)

I completely agree with the last post by ze10. But I also want to add that, in my opinion, what Crimson Nocturnal has done is just nonsensical. To give up because some people keeps annoying is something I don't understand. There will always be stupid people who can't do anything apart from whining and complaining, but I don't think anybody should stop doing things they like because of this. If the Crimson Nocturnal team started translating it's obviously because they like it, and giving up this way they don't show much more maturity than the assholes that have forced this situation. Moreover, to punish such imbeciles, the rest of the people who supported and/or helped them in one way or another and did nothing wrong, are being punished as well. "Pagan justos por pecadores" is an idiomatic expression from my language that would completely fit (dunno if there's an English equivalent).

I think we all should have learnt at certain point in life to ignore people that pisses us off (that have always existed, exist and will exist) and keep going on our way. If at least the decision of Crimson Nocturnal of closing their site and quit translating would serve for the specific people who have cause this situation to learn something, it would have been useful, but that's not the case. It's just a rushed bad idea, a tantrum that benefits nobody. But well, they are free to do what they want and no one has the right to force them to continue if that's their decision.
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: Nightcrawler on May 16, 2011, 09:23:40 am
I don't know why this is newsworthy. I've seen so many people come and go over the years, it's just commonplace. *shrug* I do like the spin here breaking this out into a discussion of our community dynamics though. For me, it always comes down to being in it for the right reasons or the wrong reasons. The people that are in it for the right reasons are long lasting. The people that aren't, don't last. When you're in it for the right reasons, the naysayers aren't going to stop you.

I also agree ignoring people that upset you is a fundamental skill of life for coexisting with other humans, especially if they have no direct influence or control over you.
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: KaioShin on May 16, 2011, 09:54:09 am
For me, it always comes down to being in it for the right reasons or the wrong reasons.

And what are the wrong reasons? I don't think you can see a 12+ month project through to completion if you don't do it with - for you as the author - the right reasons.
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: skroops on May 16, 2011, 09:58:34 am
tldr; quitting scene

I think comments like this are exactly what got them to quit, meant sarcastic, ironic or however. Good job!

Pretty sure I've never posted to their board.  If they read that and it hurts their feelings then no wonder they quit.
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: What Defines A Monster? on May 16, 2011, 12:36:15 pm
I think there's more than enough options that came out in my region, before we even get into the 5th generation of gaming, let alone translations.

It's not about options, at least from where I see it- it's more of the simple fact that, buisnesswise, there are games that we enjoy that large companies feel would not bring them enough green to bring over this way. Hotel Dusk 2, Another Code 2, the SaGa 2 DS translation, to name just a few. Not to mention the fact that Capcom has publicly stated they have no plans at all to bother translating the next Ace Attorney. The "options" in many cases like this ends up simply going without something we enjoy.
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: Metal Knuckles on May 16, 2011, 02:16:24 pm
tldr; quitting scene

I think comments like this are exactly what got them to quit, meant sarcastic, ironic or however. Good job!
I think that the message at Crimson Nocturnal was more insulting, to be honest. Even as an avid supporter of the scene who has not once complained or demanded updates, their message carried nothing but a huge "SCREW YOU" throughout the entire thing. I honestly would have felt a lot more understanding had they just said in one or two sentences "Well guys, it was fun! See ya later!" instead of the pent-up rant they sent our way.
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: kingofcrusher on May 16, 2011, 02:39:34 pm
^^ Then you must belong to the third group of people because the message is definitely NOT insulting to anyone in the first two groups.
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: Aquillion on May 16, 2011, 03:10:27 pm
It's not about options, at least from where I see it- it's more of the simple fact that, buisnesswise, there are games that we enjoy that large companies feel would not bring them enough green to bring over this way. Hotel Dusk 2, Another Code 2, the SaGa 2 DS translation, to name just a few. Not to mention the fact that Capcom has publicly stated they have no plans at all to bother translating the next Ace Attorney. The "options" in many cases like this ends up simply going without something we enjoy.
Compared to what it once was, though (in the SNES era, say), things are drastically different.

I mean, in the NES/SNES era, we didn't get Final Fantasy 2-3 or 5, or Dragon Warrior 5-6, or any of the early SMT games.  That would be almost unthinkable now.  The Final Fantasy 5 translation project in particular attracted a huge amount of attention to the scene.  Not saying that some of the untranslated games today aren't things some fans would like, but it's a whole different world.  In the SNES era there were entire major genres that were hardly ever brought over.
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: KingMike on May 16, 2011, 04:21:34 pm
According to Nintendo Power, Enix America did have 7th Saga 2/Mystic Ark, Terranigma, Tactics Ogre and Dragon Warrior VI in the plans before they decided to hibernate for five years. :P

Quote from the same issue, reporting about Shoshinkai '95: "New Game Boy titles included Tokyo Disneyland, The King of Fighters, and a fun little RPG called Pocket Monsters from Nintendo."
Don't know if anyone ever played that last one. :D
Title: .
Post by: Chpexo on May 16, 2011, 05:24:46 pm
.
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: What Defines A Monster? on May 16, 2011, 06:30:10 pm
Compared to what it once was, though (in the SNES era, say), things are drastically different.
I mean, in the NES/SNES era, we didn't get Final Fantasy 2-3 or 5, or Dragon Warrior 5-6, or any of the early SMT games.  That would be almost unthinkable now. 

This is why these translation groups are more important than ever. When a major, high profile title like a Final Fantasy misses a localization in this era, it's a shock, and you know the company is most likely biding its time. But with small translation groups, business sale potential is irrelevant- home translators are the ones bringing the games out that WON'T gain high profile attention. These aren't titles a company is going to return to in five, six years time to exploit the fanbase. These are unique, very niche titles that don't have an equivalent in the "mainstream", which is why the companies pass them up. You won't find another game quite like Ace Attorney or Another Code.
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: Metal Knuckles on May 16, 2011, 10:32:19 pm
^^ Then you must belong to the third group of people because the message is definitely NOT insulting to anyone in the first two groups.
When three quarters of the goodbye message is dedicated to slamming the leechers of the community, and then members who treat translation groups are thanked as almost an afterthought, then that's telling me the purpose of the goodbye wasn't to say "so long, and thanks for all the fish" as much as it was to cry the horrors of working in this community. The fact that his final words are "One thing is for sure, I will never be a part of a big public translation group again. Adios." says as much.

The message may not be insulting towards the first or second groups. But the fact that almost the entirety of the message was them lashing out was insulting in it's own way.
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: badinsults on May 17, 2011, 08:36:23 am
Drama quits are rarely due to outside influences, regardless that it is the reason they stated.

I'm sure there was some deep seated disagreements between the members of the hacking group. Without any background knowledge of the people in this group, I don't know what drama existed within the group, but I'm sure it must have been there. I've been in the emulation scene long enough to have seen it all.
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: What Defines A Monster? on May 17, 2011, 08:50:38 am
Without any background knowledge of the people in this group, I don't know what drama existed within the group, but I'm sure it must have been there. I've been in the emulation scene long enough to have seen it all.

And you would be right.

As was mentioned before, this was a group that had such dissension that a guy literally quit over the ingame description of the Haniwa's Seven Sword.

Seriously.

It turned into a big drama fight over whether or not Japan existed in the SaGa II universe or not, with harsh words on all sides.
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: Nightcrawler on May 17, 2011, 12:53:51 pm
Can't we all just get along? At the Red House, we CAN!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnOyMSEWNTs

One of my favorite videos of all time. Watch to the end. If you didn't at least chuckle at some point, you have no sense of humor! :P That's a real place by the way.
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: z01 on May 17, 2011, 01:59:37 pm
tldr; quitting scene
I personally think The Death of Crimson Nocturnal death is a little suspicious. They have only done one translation and we have never got word from any of the members. Also the updater of their death is from a user called Someone (here's the link to the user http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=11130 ) who has never submitted a single post.

But what the heck do I know?
Have you been to their site? The message was copied from there verbatim. As I believe those guys are originally from the DS translation scene on GBATemp, I went to there to see if they handed down some of the processed game resources to anyone, but their threads were closed by the request of the original poster. DarthNemesis, who worked as the lead programmer on their projects also hangs around here, so if there was any question of validity he'd probably chime in with something.
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: Me_Dave on May 18, 2011, 12:04:21 pm
tldr; quitting scene
I personally think The Death of Crimson Nocturnal death is a little suspicious. They have only done one translation.

for Nintendo DS that is a Big Accomplishment I'm sure it was a pain..   
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: bradzx on May 18, 2011, 04:24:01 pm
Huh.  What a wimp to quit work.  I don't like people do quit.  Just saying.
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: amitrius17 on May 18, 2011, 04:49:40 pm
I don't know why this is newsworthy. I've seen so many people come and go over the years, it's just commonplace. *shrug* I do like the spin here breaking this out into a discussion of our community dynamics though. For me, it always comes down to being in it for the right reasons or the wrong reasons. The people that are in it for the right reasons are long lasting. The people that aren't, don't last. When you're in it for the right reasons, the naysayers aren't going to stop you.

I also agree ignoring people that upset you is a fundamental skill of life for coexisting with other humans, especially if they have no direct influence or control over you.

Agree, agree, and agree! Well said, Nightcrawler. In my eyes this thread ended with your post. The concept you brought up isn't very different from the business world, with companies that have established a mission statement versus those that haven't.
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: Metal Knuckles on May 18, 2011, 11:48:17 pm
Huh.  What a wimp to quit work.  I don't like people do quit.  Just saying.
And on the other side of the issue, we have this garbage going on, where situations occur in absolutes with no room to consider the reasons. No, to them, quitting is a shameful activity, regardless of the reasons. Just like long waits between status updates, and not meeting their expectations in localization names or project features. Reasoning with these people is useless, as their opinion will always be right, regardless of faults in it.

Just saying.
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: Aquillion on May 19, 2011, 05:20:48 pm
for Nintendo DS that is a Big Accomplishment I'm sure it was a pain.
Is working with the DS that hard?

I mean, there's a lot of advantages to working with it that you don't have when working with older consoles -- it has an internal file structure using standardized compression that is trivial to decompress, say, and there's several standard file types for a lot of things which weren't standardized on, say, the SNES.  I don't know a lot about in-depth translation efforts or romhacking, but certainly it's much easier to open up a typical DS game and do some basic poking around than it is with older consoles.

(One things that's surprised me is that there have been a few 'open translations' for the DS that were surprisingly effective, with everything public -- I think Soma Bringer was one?  Culdcept DS, too, but I think most of the effort still ended up getting done by one guy.  Still, I'm surprised that it worked at all.  There are obvious disadvantages to doing it that way, like the risk of losing a standard voice, and obviously some things that can't be done by a community, but it does at least reduce drama...  of course, one thing that both Soma Bringer and Culdcept DS had in common was that they're games with huge amounts of separate little non-dialog textfiles that needed translation.)
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: Kiyoshi Aman on May 19, 2011, 07:05:23 pm
Pay no, or minimal, attention to Me_Dave—he's one of several folks here who tend to post things of little to no import. Unfortunately, this is not a bannable offense.
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: Josephine Lithius on May 20, 2011, 12:39:48 am
This news displeases me greatly.  I was really, really looking forward to the release of the SaGa 3 DS English patch, since it's my favorite game in the series, but now?  Apparently, thanks to people who just couldn't patiently wait for Crimson Nocturnal to make progress at whatever pace they saw fit?  Now, it's not going to happen.  Or at the very least, not going to happen as quickly.  I guess you can look at this several ways, though.
On the one hand, were these people really that bad that Crimson Nocturnal had to close their doors?  It was just words.  Hot air.  On the other hand, did these people really have nothing better to do that harass the translation group?

Such is life, I suppose...  Or at least the Internet.  Where everyone is still in High School.
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: Klarth on May 20, 2011, 02:58:43 am
The SaGa curse still has some power even today.
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: Eien Ni Hen on May 20, 2011, 11:20:26 pm
Quote
The SaGa curse still has some power even today.

You know, Gideon told me about the SaGa curse, but it didn't stop me from finishing the script for Romancing Saga 2.  :P

For awhile there, I was worried about getting hit by a bus or eaten by a bear or something...  :-\
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: Gideon Zhi on May 20, 2011, 11:27:07 pm
Maybe it's the SaGa curse that's keeping me from getting back to it! OooOOoOOoooo....
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: Josephine Lithius on May 21, 2011, 05:34:45 pm
You guys are adorable.  Thanks for adding some humor to this drama-fest.  :)
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: demione on May 25, 2011, 01:24:40 am
In my time in the scene, I've come across two types of people: those that take responsibility for their actions, and those that create drama.

Just my two cents.
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: Someone on May 25, 2011, 04:44:22 am
My first and last post, lest there be a response to this.

I was the one who wrote the news article, as everyone already knows. I'm not related to Crimson Nocturnal, not at all. I would have written the article in a different manner if I was. My original article consisted of just a few sentences. Very lazy of me. Fortunately, either the admins or mods changed it, and it became the article that you see today.

Pay no, or minimal, attention to Me_Dave—he's one of several folks here who tend to post things of little to no import.

I agree. If there were more people like him, then nothing good will come out. There's the weaboos as well, and the OM* people, things like that.

P.S.: I was not aware of this (http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php/topic,12601.0.html), but there you go. At least this gets more coverage due to it being in the front page.
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: GreenBanana on May 26, 2011, 09:43:55 pm
Actually this news IS an insult to the first two groups.  having been a close follower of Crimson Nocturnal's website, I can vouch first-hand that there were no ill messages being directed publicly towards the webhost; if there were I certainly would have easily manned up and ignored him.  Really, the only malevolence on that website was the fact that there were a couple of spambots on the forums advertising crap.  That's it.  To abandon a vital project to the history of video gaming for some emo tantrum is wrong.  And if there were people bitching to know what the group's status was, it's only logical when you lack a site update for three months. 

SaGa 3 is a piece of video gaming history that transpires decades of evolutionary trends.  It is a piece of our nostalgic history as well as an excellent title that desperately requires a release.  There is no need to give up on an essential project, and it is with best hope and wishes that we gather together and ensure that our duty does not go unheeded. 
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: KM on May 30, 2011, 08:58:35 pm
Maybe it's time to just give the 3rd group a choice, wait forever, or start learning Japanese.
I honestly started doing the latter because I knew some of the games I wanted to play wouldn't be translated, and a lot of them still aren't. I'm glad now that I made that choice as I've been able to play a lot of games that may never see a translation. (Like Narikiri Dungeon X) So if you want to complain, either suck it up and learn Japanese, or quit bitching. Then again, it's not like bitchers actually attempt to accomplish anything anyway, so, viscous cycle.
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: Aquillion on June 02, 2011, 01:01:38 am
To abandon a vital project to the history of video gaming for some emo tantrum is wrong.  And if there were people bitching to know what the group's status was, it's only logical when you lack a site update for three months. 
Well, now, let's not go that far.

I agree that this goodbye message is a bit too drama-intense for my tastes, but what it comes down to is that if they weren't having fun making a translation (and it's obvious that whoever wrote this goodbye message obviously wasn't having fun anymore, all else aside), they should stop.  In the long run, having a bunch of people who aren't having fun in the scene isn't any good for anyone, since it just leads to more tensions and such when someone does snap.

It's not like translating SaGa 3 was some sacred duty of theirs.  It's unfortunate that they won't complete it, but eventually, someone else probably will (and if not -- well, look, it's a game you can play at least a version of already.  That's better than many others.)
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: zeteginara on June 04, 2011, 12:08:03 am
Here's the thing that really gets to me when something like this happens.

neoxephon is quite right that there are three such groups of people, and the third group is the 'cancer' on the translation community.

The thing is, that community exists in every facet of the internet.  They are called flamers and trolls.  They exist only to escalate arguments... to no real end.  There is a community of them out there, who brag about their accomplishments.  You shouldn't let them bother you; you shouldn't pay them heed.  The fact that these trolls (and I caught several glimpses of them on Crimson Nocturnal's website.  I've seen much, much, MUCH worse) are being given responsibility for ending this project is... outrageously disappointing.  And by that I mean I'm outrageously disappointed in any great work that ends because trolls got to someone.

A tip to EVERYONE wanting to work on a project of any kind:  The internet is a big scary place full of assholes.  There's nothing that obligates you to listen to them all.  If you don't want to, moderate your forum.  Let only people who have constructive things to say, on.  An argument can only escalate and make both sides walk away feeling angry.

No one is entitled to anything.  Listen to the people who support you, and no more.  Yes, offering bugfixes and such is a form of support.  Flamers will flame, Trolls will troll, and you quitting your project because of them won't make you a martyr.  Just a victory for the trolls, and a disappointment to everyone who supported you.
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: Aquillion on June 04, 2011, 12:54:18 am
Zeteginara, I think that you shouldn't put too much weight in the idea that they stopped just because of trolls.  I think that Nightcrawler hit the nail on the head:
I don't know why this is newsworthy. I've seen so many people come and go over the years, it's just commonplace. *shrug* I do like the spin here breaking this out into a discussion of our community dynamics though. For me, it always comes down to being in it for the right reasons or the wrong reasons. The people that are in it for the right reasons are long lasting. The people that aren't, don't last. When you're in it for the right reasons, the naysayers aren't going to stop you.
Probably, the truth is they found that translating games wasn't as fun as they expected, or they slowly got bored with it, but kept working on it because they felt they had a "duty" to fans or because they'd invested so much work already.

When it reaches that point, it's easy to see how seeing a few rude or annoying comments could make them say "wait a minute, I'm not even enjoying this -- why the hell am I wasting my time on it?" and quit.

But I suspect that what it comes down to is that they just weren't having fun doing the translation in general, and reading all those comments just made them say "wait, why the hell am I working so hard on this, anyway?" and realize they couldn't answer.  I've been in that situation before with other sorts of projects -- where you hit a day-to-day annoyance and it suddenly makes you quit.  Usually, thinking back, I realize that I was just looking for an excuse to quit, and that I probably should've quit a lot earlier.

(The fact that the goodbye message ends with an "I will absolutely never be a part of a big group again" also makes me suspect that the group's internal dynamics weren't so healthy, which could definitely sap all the fun out of things.)
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: Romsstar on June 06, 2011, 08:03:34 am
Zeteginara, I think that you shouldn't put too much weight in the idea that they stopped just because of trolls.  I think that Nightcrawler hit the nail on the head:
I don't know why this is newsworthy. I've seen so many people come and go over the years, it's just commonplace. *shrug* I do like the spin here breaking this out into a discussion of our community dynamics though. For me, it always comes down to being in it for the right reasons or the wrong reasons. The people that are in it for the right reasons are long lasting. The people that aren't, don't last. When you're in it for the right reasons, the naysayers aren't going to stop you.
Probably, the truth is they found that translating games wasn't as fun as they expected, or they slowly got bored with it, but kept working on it because they felt they had a "duty" to fans or because they'd invested so much work already.

When it reaches that point, it's easy to see how seeing a few rude or annoying comments could make them say "wait a minute, I'm not even enjoying this -- why the hell am I wasting my time on it?" and quit.

But I suspect that what it comes down to is that they just weren't having fun doing the translation in general, and reading all those comments just made them say "wait, why the hell am I working so hard on this, anyway?" and realize they couldn't answer.  I've been in that situation before with other sorts of projects -- where you hit a day-to-day annoyance and it suddenly makes you quit.  Usually, thinking back, I realize that I was just looking for an excuse to quit, and that I probably should've quit a lot earlier.

(The fact that the goodbye message ends with an "I will absolutely never be a part of a big group again" also makes me suspect that the group's internal dynamics weren't so healthy, which could definitely sap all the fun out of things.)

This is a problem that in my opinion occurs in many translation groups.
I agree on what you said but then again I also think that you shouldn't depend too much on the fans and the comments.
After all, you are doing it not only for them but also for yourself.
I've been in romhacking groups, fansubbing groups, manga translation groups.
I've seen them all and I tell you it is just the same everywhere.
If you work to please the audience you will always fail.

Because there is no way to please everyone in the audience.
I think they quitted because the motivation was wrong.
I had that too.
You start working for fun.

Then you realize people like your work and suddenly it is not about the work anymore, but about the people.
You like being applauded, you like to hear "you guys are awesome" and all this stuff.

This is when all things begin to fall apart. Because you begin not to care that much for the project anymore.
And I think this is exactly what went wrong here. They started to care about people they don't even know and
not about the project they dedicated themself to.

In the end, there will always be persons that are unhappy with your work. That's just life.
What is the most important is that YOU, the one who started this because it is YOUR project, YOUR team,
that YOU are happy with the result.

Seriously screw what the others think... As long as you've given it your best shot and you are happy with your work,
that is all what matters.

Alas, this group forgot about it. It happens.
They will return.
Not in the way they used to, but somehow they will.

Why? Because you always want to be liked and acknowledged for your work if you ever tasted it once.

Don't get me wrong, support is great.
But everyone who started fansubbing, translating, programming, basically anything of that stuff, has to realize that they are doing it for themselves.

The "we are doing it for the fans" line can't be applied to these days. It is just like that.
You are doing it for yourselves and letting others be part of it. That is what you are doing, and if others don't want to be part of it, screw it because this was never the reason you started this.
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: corndogmaestro on July 02, 2011, 04:00:02 pm
Little late to the game here, but still have to remark on it. The one thing that bothers me the most about all this? THEY DIDN'T RELEASE ANY SORT OF RESOURCES, IN CASE SOMEONE ELSE WANTS TO CONTINUE THE PROJECT. Would it have been that hard? No. A zip, a megaupload link, and leaving it at that. BUT NO.
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: MegamanX on July 02, 2011, 05:26:21 pm
If you're pissed off at ungrateful people that hound you about stuff, would you want to give them anything at all?
Title: Re: Translations: The Death of Crimson Nocturnal
Post by: cidkramer on February 18, 2012, 10:09:30 am
I figure I'd throw my 2 cents into the bin. I know this topic is old... I just came across it yesterday.

NeoXephon decided on his own to close his site and operation down without any notice. It came as a surprise to the last 2 active members (Easton West and myself).
The 3 of us had been working very hard to get those patches out, with the majority of work happening between translation and editing (Easton and myself). I got sick in Jan '11 with 2 consecutive colds but managed to finish up my bit. Once I regained my health I joined in editing bugs people found.. then one day I tried to go to the site and found it closed. That's pretty much it, wish I could say more happened, but I was active on the forum and didn't see it coming.

As far as resources go.. I have the script and am now apart of Cain's project, working on Saga 3. We had DarthNemesis join our team recently, so I pitched the idea of resurrecting Saga 2 once we're done with Saga 3... and it may just happen.