Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion

[hmsong]

The minimal change you do in a rom, CRC32 will change.

Actually you must embrace the positives of that fact. I have spent enough time combining patches in SD3 and many other games, always checking CRC32 after patching.

Many, many times you can tell that the patches are fully compatible, when, no matter the order of patching, you obtain the same code. It means that the patches affect different parts of the rom, and they don't interfere.

It doesn't fully guarrantee that the rom works correctly, but in many cases it does.

In case of SD3, I've never fully tested, but it seems to work well after patching it with translations, cosmetic hacks, praetarious fixes and your improvements. Many, many combinations result in the same CRC no matter the order of patching. For the combinations that don't, you have given instructions about how to combine your patches.

I wouldn't have been to be able to warn you so quickly about "incompatibilities" between your patches if it hadn't been for CRC32 checkups. So my suggestion is asking you not to worry about messing with checksum fixing.

Got it.  I appreciate your feedback.  Thanks.

[Wolfric]

Time to put all our efforts into breaking into praetarius5018's trash bin. 

[Nintenja]

Okay, so is it even possible to make my patches so that it doesn't mess with CRC?

No In my experience I don't believe so.

[soul_knight]

Time to put all our efforts into breaking into praetarius5018's trash bin. 

Uhh, why?  Even if we can break into his digital trash bin, what do you expect to find?  Hell, he can straight up give us all his hacker notes, but it won't mean much to non-hackers, which is almost everyone here.

[Wolfric]

Many, many times you can tell that the patches are fully compatible, when, no matter the order of patching, you obtain the same code. It means that the patches affect different parts of the rom, and they don't interfere.

Huh. Damn, this could've helped me last week. Certainly will help me now.

Uhh, why?  Even if we can break into his digital trash bin, what do you expect to find?  Hell, he can straight up give us all his hacker notes, but it won't mean much to non-hackers, which is almost everyone here.

Who knows what's there to find other than the running patch 

[soul_knight]

Wow, both in terms of damage and frequency of counter, the recent update of bugfix is way more reasonable.  I guess that -12.5% before defense reduces damage by decent chunk, just like you said a long time ago.

As for defense, the increase isn't anywhere near huge as I thought it would be.  It seems like the max base defense (with all top gears and VIT maxed) is 314 for Dervish Kevin, 312 for Rune Master Angela, and 310 for Sage Carlie.  A little less for both with Class Balance.  Not bad.  I'm guessing the max base defense is 315 in gameplay (either Kevin or Duran).  Well, the goal was to make VIT more meaningful at the end of the game, and you did just that.  Very well done balancing that.

Thank you so much.  I found no problem at all.

[praetarius5018]

Who knows what's there to find other than the running patch 

Right about nothing since that was so long ago that the PC the file was on got already shreddered.

Wow, both in terms of damage and frequency of counter, the recent update of bugfix is way more reasonable.  I guess that -12.5% before defense reduces damage by decent chunk, just like you said a long time ago.

Endgame enemies have like 300-350 atk, x2 or x2.5 on a tech, so anywhere from 600 to 875 raw attack. So the reduction cuts up to 110 damage out.
That might even be a bit too much damage reduction, tbh.

As for defense, the increase isn't anywhere near huge as I thought it would be.  It seems like the max base defense (with all top gears and VIT maxed) is 314 for Dervish Kevin, 312 for Rune Master Angela, and 310 for Sage Carlie.  A little less for both with Class Balance.  Not bad.  I'm guessing the max base defense is 315 in gameplay (either Kevin or Duran).  Well, the goal was to make VIT more meaningful at the end of the game, and you did just that.  Very well done balancing that.

That's actually less than I thought Kevin would get but that is still perfectly fine. Though we always need to consider than in unmodded, the def cap included the buff, so it was 300 with or without protect up; now def can go beyond that. If Kevin has 314 unbuffed, he would have around 375 buffed which is a big difference to 300.

[hmsong]

I'm looking forward to trying that out.  And then editing my patches (I already edited little things here and there a while ago, but never released yet).

Do any of you think that Evil Gate (spell) should be slightly stronger than other Lv1 spells?  Dark is such a useless element, outside of very few enemies and bosses, so in order to encourage players to use dark spells, maybe I can buff it tiny bit.  And clearly, the devs thought that for Saint Beam vs Dark Force (Dark Force is stronger).

Wow, both in terms of damage and frequency of counter, the recent update of bugfix is way more reasonable.  I guess that -12.5% before defense reduces damage by decent chunk, just like you said a long time ago.

Huh.  I thought -0.5 (~-20%) would be better, but that was based on v1.9's frequency.  If v1.10's frequency of counter is less, then -12.5% may be the better solution.  But not vanilla power, since that thing is ridiculous (damn you Nightblades and werewolves).  Assuming werewolves' techs are weakened, is Shadowzero's Lv3 tech weakened too?

[praetarius5018]

Do any of you think that Evil Gate (spell) should be slightly stronger than other Lv1 spells?  Dark is such a useless element, outside of very few enemies and bosses, so in order to encourage players to use dark spells, maybe I can buff it tiny bit.  And clearly, the devs thought that for Saint Beam vs Dark Force (Dark Force is stronger).

I don't really think it is an issue of dark being bad but of light being too good. Two routes have the FMH refight and you always have the Lightgazer godbeast, which is compared to the other elements more or less on par.
The issue is that most endgame mobs have either no weakness or one to light. Fire, ice, etc. have the same issue as dark here.
But really, none of that matters too much when you add the non-elemental ultimates. Even Lv3 spells have only an x10 multiplier, x15 after weakness. Ancient has that by default.

Huh.  I thought -0.5 (~-20%) would be better, but that was based on v1.9's frequency.

A flat -0.5x would mean about 175 damage less at the end which was too much imo.

If v1.10's frequency of counter is less, then -12.5% may be the better solution.  But not vanilla power, since that thing is ridiculous (damn you Nightblades and werewolves).  Assuming werewolves' techs are weakened, is Shadowzero's Lv3 tech weakened too?

My change is pretty simple:
if the user has no weapon equipped the penalty applies. And last I checked no monster has ever equipment, neither do shadow0s copy it.

[soul_knight]

That's actually less than I thought Kevin would get but that is still perfectly fine. Though we always need to consider than in unmodded, the def cap included the buff, so it was 300 with or without protect up; now def can go beyond that. If Kevin has 314 unbuffed, he would have around 375 buffed which is a big difference to 300.

That is indeed big, but I'm okay with it.  Still, I heard that spells that use STR or AGI is buffed by Mind Up, and not Power Up nor Speed Up.  I'm guessing that's true on the receiving end too.  Or maybe not?  I can't test, because I don't know which of spells use which stats, other than some obvious ones.

Do any of you think that Evil Gate (spell) should be slightly stronger than other Lv1 spells?  Dark is such a useless element, outside of very few enemies and bosses, so in order to encourage players to use dark spells, maybe I can buff it tiny bit.  And clearly, the devs thought that for Saint Beam vs Dark Force (Dark Force is stronger).

I'm okay with either way, but I don't think Evil Gate needs to be particularly stronger.  Sure, it may be useless for the most part, but that's true for many spells in the game.  The idea isn't to make every spell useful, but to have the option of using specific spells should you encounter a situation that needs it.  That's particularly true for Angela, since that's the main reason she has the same strength spells with just different elements to it.  Think about Body Change or Half Vanish.  They're quite useless.  I know you made them better than vanilla, but they're still not very useful, relative to everything else that's available by that time.

Btw, I noticed that you buffed Bigieu's attack way too much in one of your patches.  Maybe tone down that a little?  I'm sure you did that with Power Down in mind, but you must assume that some people chose particular character/class and won't have access to that (ex: Hawk L, Kevin L, and Angela D).  And you might say "Defense Up is always available", but for ToM players, they won't have access to the bugfix patch which allows DEF to go past 300, which means they're screwed the moment they chose wrong character/class.

[hmsong]

My change is pretty simple:
if the user has no weapon equipped the penalty applies. And last I checked no monster has ever equipment, neither do shadow0s copy it.

That is genius.  I just checked Shadowzeros.  And yup, their techs are less powerful, even though they copied my chars.  Thanks!  That makes it so much better.

That is indeed big, but I'm okay with it.  Still, I heard that spells that use STR or AGI is buffed by Mind Up, and not Power Up nor Speed Up.  I'm guessing that's true on the receiving end too.  Or maybe not?  I can't test, because I don't know which of spells use which stats, other than some obvious ones.

I think the only way to power up your spells (whether based on STR, AGI, INT, or PIE) is with Mind Up.  However, when taking damage from STR/AGI based spells, both Mind Up or Defense Up can affect it.  Not 100% sure though.

I'm okay with either way, but I don't think Evil Gate needs to be particularly stronger.  Sure, it may be useless for the most part, but that's true for many spells in the game.  The idea isn't to make every spell useful, but to have the option of using specific spells should you encounter a situation that needs it.  That's particularly true for Angela, since that's the main reason she has the same strength spells with just different elements to it.  Think about Body Change or Half Vanish.  They're quite useless.  I know you made them better than vanilla, but they're still not very useful, relative to everything else that's available by that time.

Hmm.  I think all spells should be useful, at least to some degree.  That's precisely why I made Change Form and Half Vanish more useful.  That's why I beefed up the powers of Lv2+ spells.  That's why I got rid of Chibikko SE from Freya.  That's why I made Pressure Point be more than just "self-Power Up".  Having said that, I understand what you and praetarius5018 mean about Evil Gate, so I shall leave it be.

Btw, I noticed that you buffed Bigieu's attack way too much in one of your patches.  Maybe tone down that a little?  I'm sure you did that with Power Down in mind, but you must assume that some people chose particular character/class and won't have access to that (ex: Hawk L, Kevin L, and Angela D).  And you might say "Defense Up is always available", but for ToM players, they won't have access to the bugfix patch which allows DEF to go past 300, which means they're screwed the moment they chose wrong character/class.

Good call.  I'm still gonna give her a bit more power than vanilla, but I'll reduce her power than before.  I raised Black Rabite's power too, but I'm gonna leave it alone, since he's a secret boss.

[praetarius5018]

That is indeed big, but I'm okay with it.  Still, I heard that spells that use STR or AGI is buffed by Mind Up, and not Power Up nor Speed Up.  I'm guessing that's true on the receiving end too.  Or maybe not?  I can't test, because I don't know which of spells use which stats, other than some obvious ones.

On the caster end, it checks for mind up/down flags.
On the target's end, it checks for the actual def value.
So defense against "physical" spells is handled by defense up/down effects while the others use mind up/down.

[hmsong]

Updated:

- Better Starting Stats
- Better Monsters and Maps
- Class Balance

Enjoy.

Btw, here are the locations to where the treasures are in Better Monsters -- some of them are in the original game's location:
- Astoria / Altena Castle / Navarre / Moonlight Forest (you can only pick one)
- Wendel Town
- Jad Castle
- Dwarf Village
- Molebear Highland
- Rolante Secret Hideout
- Rolante Raid barrels
- Seashore Cave
- Sultan
- Altena Town
- Altena Castle / Beast Kingdom / Navarre (you can only pick one)
- Ancient Ruins of Light
- Moonreading Tower
- Forest of Wonder
- Present Pedan
- Dragon's Hole / Mirage Palace / Dark Castle (you can only pick one)

This was in the previous update too, but I figured I should post the locations here.  Most of them should be easy find.

[soul_knight]

On the caster end, it checks for mind up/down flags.
On the target's end, it checks for the actual def value.
So defense against "physical" spells is handled by defense up/down effects while the others use mind up/down.

Thanks!  A little weird, but that's nothing new.

[soul_knight]

Updated:

- Better Starting Stats
- Better Monsters and Maps
- Class Balance

Enjoy.

Btw, here are the locations to where the treasures are in Better Monsters -- some of them are in the original game's location:
- Astoria / Altena Castle / Navarre / Moonlight Forest (you can only pick one)
- Wendel Town
- Jad Castle
- Dwarf Village
- Molebear Highland
- Rolante Secret Hideout
- Rolante Raid barrels
- Seashore Cave
- Sultan
- Altena Town
- Altena Castle / Beast Kingdom / Navarre (you can only pick one)
- Ancient Ruins of Light
- Moonreading Tower
- Forest of Wonder
- Present Pedan
- Dragon's Hole / Mirage Palace / Dark Castle (you can only pick one)

This was in the previous update too, but I figured I should post the locations here.  Most of them should be easy find.

Thanks!  I'll try the updates tomorrow.

Okay, I found most treasures, but I can't find the treasures in Dwarf Village and Molebear Highland.  Could you please give some hints on their location?

[hmsong]

Okay, I found most treasures, but I can't find the treasures in Dwarf Village and Molebear Highland.  Could you please give some hints on their location?

Dwarf Village:  Search in the location of the worker when he goes to sleep.
Molebear Highland:  Talk to the living tree when the sun is at its strongest.

Edit:  Whoops.  I apparently uploaded the wrong version for Better Monsters (one of the pre-v2.4).  So I submitted the correct version.  For those of you who dled it recently, please dl again after the patch updates.  I shall notify you as soon as I find out.

Edit:  Done.

[Nintenja]

Updated:

- Better Starting Stats
- Better Monsters and Maps
- Class Balance

Enjoy.

Btw, here are the locations to where the treasures are in Better Monsters -- some of them are in the original game's location:
- Astoria / Altena Castle / Navarre / Moonlight Forest (you can only pick one)
- Wendel Town
- Jad Castle
- Dwarf Village
- Molebear Highland
- Rolante Secret Hideout
- Rolante Raid barrels
- Seashore Cave
- Sultan
- Altena Town
- Altena Castle / Beast Kingdom / Navarre (you can only pick one)
- Ancient Ruins of Light
- Moonreading Tower
- Forest of Wonder
- Present Pedan
- Dragon's Hole / Mirage Palace / Dark Castle (you can only pick one)

This was in the previous update too, but I figured I should post the locations here.  Most of them should be easy find.

Thanks for the updates. I'm gonna update the pixel freemaster with the new updates you did like we talked about, test, and release an official version 1.0 on RHDN for download with msu1 and non-msu1 versions. Honestly I'm tempted to just call it Himsong's freemaster..lol.

[hmsong]

Thanks for the updates. I'm gonna update the pixel freemaster with the new updates you did like we talked about, test, and release an official version 1.0 on RHDN for download with msu1 and non-msu1 versions. Honestly I'm tempted to just call it Himsong's freemaster..lol.

Haha.  You don't need to call it that, but be sure to put my name on what hacks I'm responsible for.  Also, be sure to redownload Better Monster, as that was updated maybe an hour ago from this post.

[soul_knight]

Dwarf Village:  Search in the location of the worker when he goes to sleep.
Molebear Highland:  Talk to the living tree when the sun is at its strongest.

Edit:  Whoops.  I apparently uploaded the wrong version for Better Monsters (one of the pre-v2.4).  So I submitted the correct version.  For those of you who dled it recently, please dl again after the patch updates.  I shall notify you as soon as I find out.

Edit:  Done.

Okay, I found them.  Holy crap, I did not expect to see the living tree in Molebear Highlands.  How did I miss that this entire time?  It's clearly in vanilla.  I wonder how many people who played SD3 noticed that.  Btw, there's a living tree above that room too, but it doesn't have the shiny eyes.

Anyways, the reward is... underwhelming.  Maybe you should up that a bit?

Btw, I tried Lise LL to try out Grand Slam.  Very interesting animation.  Very beautiful.  In any case, I gotta say... it's a little too overpowered, don't you think?  Esp when you consider that the both Duran DD and Lise LL have Power Up, which can power them up even further.  And the fact that Duran DD and Lise LL have the highest possible attack power in the game cements that even further.  And it makes Aura Wave a little underwhelming.

Sorry.  I feel like I'm complaining or something.  I don't mean to speak badly about it.

[Nintenja]

Haha.  You don't need to call it that, but be sure to put my name on what hacks I'm responsible for.  Also, be sure to redownload Better Monster, as that was updated maybe an hour ago from this post.

Of course. I think out of all the hacks I've worked on now your hacks are featured the most in this project. I'm thinking of something I can add to the mix personally and right now nothing is coming to mind as I feel like you have covered most everything. Unrelated I mentioned on Erik London rpg's youtube live stream about improvement rom hacks and how the big youtubers never talk about them such as Chrono Trigger Plus, Final Fantasy 4:Ultima, etc. h
He said he has no interest in them. It kinda sucks all the big youtubers who do RPG's kind of act like vanilla classics are the only versions ever created. When I told him he was missing out on some great improvement and expansion patches my comment suddenly disappeared and he never replied to it. I'm gonna start posting videos on rom hacks and improvement patches on my YouTube as this community deserves to be recognized more than it is.