Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion

[Wolfric]

Not dead yet.  Also, if any of you have general questions about the patches, post it here instead of messaging me.  It's just easier here on the forum, since I can edit the reply.

I assume there's still no way to enable running through combat, as Sin of Mana does?

[hmsong]

I assume there's still no way to enable running through combat, as Sin of Mana does?

Nope.  I wish.  I tried to find a way to switch the toggle of holding the B button to make the run the default, but I didn't even know where to begin.

[Wolfric]

Nope.  I wish.  I tried to find a way to switch the toggle of holding the B button to make the run the default, but I didn't even know where to begin.

And I gather the developers aren't open to conversation.... tsk. 

EDIT: Regardless, I appreciate this hack endlessly. Does it also work with the official Trials of Mana ROM?

I ended up putting Better Monsters and Maps > More Evade Changes v1.2 > Less Grinding > with praetarius5018's fixes (Which only seem to work with Japan ROM) + Translation + 3-player hack and it works like a charm (Although I struggled so much to add the 3-player hack, until I added it headered).

[hmsong]

And I gather the developers aren't open to conversation.... tsk. 

EDIT: Regardless, I appreciate this hack endlessly. Does it also work with the official Trials of Mana ROM?

I ended up putting Better Monsters and Maps > More Evade Changes v1.2 > Less Grinding > with praetarius5018's fixes (Which only seem to work with Japan ROM) + Translation + 3-player hack and it works like a charm (Although I struggled so much to add the 3-player hack, until I added it headered).

The only other hacker who works on the gameplay of SD3 is praetarius5018 (the creator of Sin of Mana), and he once tried to explain to me how to do make the run work, but it was so advanced that I couldn't follow.  If you're more advanced hacker than I am, then I suggest you to ask him to teach you.

Yes, all my hacks work with the official Trials of Mana ROM.  The ROM needs to be unheadered though.

Hmm.  Maybe I should create a 3 player hack for the unheadered ROM.  It's pretty easy.  I already know exactly what to do, but I just felt that it was unnecessary.  What do you think?

[Wolfric]

The only other hacker who works on the gameplay of SD3 is praetarius5018 (the creator of Sin of Mana), and he once tried to explain to me how to do make the run work, but it was so advanced that I couldn't follow.  If you're more advanced hacker than I am, then I suggest you to ask him to teach you.

Oh not even remotely close! My modding skills are far from the SNES community hahah

I only worked intensely with the Brawl Modding Community before and during B-/B+ and other more specific research projects until around Project M's rise.

I guess it's safe to assume it's quite complex, which might be why he never released it as standalone.

Yes, all my hacks work with the official Trials of Mana ROM.  The ROM needs to be unheadered though.

Hmm.  Maybe I should create a 3 player hack for the unheadered ROM.  It's pretty easy.  I already know exactly what to do, but I just felt that it was unnecessary.  What do you think?

Wait. So if I updated the og Japanese ROM with praetarius5018's fixes, then yours, and then made it headered for the 3 player hack, your patches are rendered unuseable?

Also, I think you should. As with many other fields, it may seem easy to the people that know how to use the tools, but not for end users. I'm sure people would appreciate it.

[hmsong]

Wait. So if I updated the og Japanese ROM with praetarius5018's fixes, then yours, and then made it headered for the 3 player hack, your patches are rendered unuseable?

Oh, it's usable.  I'm saying my patches need to be with unheadered ROM during the patching process.  After they've been patched, you can put header no problem.

Also, I think you should. As with many other fields, it may seem easy to the people that know how to use the tools, but not for end users. I'm sure people would appreciate it.

Very well.  I shall do so sometime soon.  Assuming RHDN allows that (the headered patch has been out for a while, and I'm simply making it unheadered).

Edit:  Done.

[Nintenja]

Oh, it's usable.  I'm saying my patches need to be with unheadered ROM during the patching process.  After they've been patched, you can put header no problem.

Very well.  I shall do so sometime soon.  Assuming RHDN allows that (the headered patch has been out for a while, and I'm simply making it unheadered).

Edit:  Done.

Great job on the 3 player patch. Will use it to make a 3 player verzion of tom-pixel freemaster

[Wolfric]

Oh, it's usable.  I'm saying my patches need to be with unheadered ROM during the patching process.  After they've been patched, you can put header no problem.

Very well.  I shall do so sometime soon.  Assuming RHDN allows that (the headered patch has been out for a while, and I'm simply making it unheadered).

Edit:  Done.

Excellent. I'll re-patch my whole thing just to have it unheadered now.


EDIT: Now all that's missing is a proper unheadered translation. Current one requires being patched on the site (https://www.romhacking.net/translations/440/) and adding a temporary header

[praetarius5018]

I assume there's still no way to enable running through combat, as Sin of Mana does?

nah, I'm keeping that feature hostage on my main hack.
There was a day in the past where I considered adding that to the fix patch, and in fact was about to wrap up the zip for an update containing when I got a private message. Tl;dr it contained a lot of insults why I wasted my time working on Sin of Mana instead of fixing stuff in the vanilla game. (I will not name names, but it was noone I've seen in this forum)
I then decided to not release the updated fix patch, moved the running patch into the trash bin and there it will stay forever.


Submitted update:
v1.10
-reduced tech attack multipliers for enemies by 12.5%
    -their Lv2 techs have x1.75 atk instead of x2
    -their Lv3 techs have x2.1875 atk instead of x2.5
-changed enemy counter chance from pure RNG to half RNG, half build-up
    -misses do not contribute to build-up
    -build-up is subject to LUCK stat difference between attacker and target
    -bosses have a minimum build-up value below which they can never counter
-allowed to increase base def past 300 but at only half the rate past 285, e.g. raw 335 becomes 310; hard cap at 350. hard cap for buffed def is 400
-added optional manaday_all_elements.ips patch


Even Angela could reach the def cap, so for most everyone else a big chunk of the final armor upgrades and the last few points of VIT don't do much, therefor I decided to allow them to go slightly beyond. I haven't tried it, but Kevin should barely reach 330 with that change. That should compensate a bit for him now being a liability with dual hits and enemy counter changes due to his low luck stat.

How counter buildup roughly works:
-as the initial value I used the "class 0 cast speed" which is never used and seemingly always between 20 and 40 from what I saw
-the value increases by max[target.luck + 8 - attacker.luck; 0]/2 + 2 (highest enemy luck should be 15, so Hawk's 22 always gets the minimum)
-spells/screenfreezing attacks increase it by another 10 (sometimes the game calculates a normal attack in the background for a spell or Lv2/3 tech, so those get the variable part double, because SD3 is SD3 again)
-item use gives +40 (if you want to replace whole classes with the black market, you should at least endure that small penalty)
-it can't go above 255

counter chance:
x = (level/2 + 5), another +15 if boss
x += (buildup/2)
x -= 32
if the target is a boss && x < 50: no counter is possible
y = x - attacker.luck
if y < 1: no counter is possible
x *= 2
if regular attack: x *= 4
x is capped at 256
counter chance: y in x

or tl;dr: over time the counter chance grows towards 50%
during test against Darkshine Knight I had counter triggers anywhere from 80 to 210 buildup

Ofc. just because the counter is "successful" doesn't mean the enemy actually does anything, it only runs the counter AI and said AI may just decide to "do nothing" given the circumstances.

[Wolfric]

There was a day in the past where I considered adding that to the fix patch, and in fact was about to wrap up the zip for an update containing when I got a private message. Tl;dr it contained a lot of insults why I wasted my time working on Sin of Mana instead of fixing stuff in the vanilla game. (I will not name names, but it was noone I've seen in this forum)

Tsk, Typical forum roamers. I can't even begin to count the ones I got cursing the heavens out of me in PMs back when I moderated one of the big Brawl Modding forums lol

[soul_knight]

nah, I'm keeping that feature hostage on my main hack.
There was a day in the past where I considered adding that to the fix patch, and in fact was about to wrap up the zip for an update containing when I got a private message. Tl;dr it contained a lot of insults why I wasted my time working on Sin of Mana instead of fixing stuff in the vanilla game. (I will not name names, but it was noone I've seen in this forum)
I then decided to not release the updated fix patch, moved the running patch into the trash bin and there it will stay forever.

Oh well.  While I and the rest of the world will miss the running (outside of Sin of Mana), it is what it is.  I'm grateful for what you have done for us all.  You and hmsong made this game so much better.

Submitted update:
v1.10
-reduced tech attack multipliers for enemies by 12.5%
    -their Lv2 techs have x1.75 atk instead of x2
    -their Lv3 techs have x2.1875 atk instead of x2.5
-changed enemy counter chance from pure RNG to half RNG, half build-up
    -misses do not contribute to build-up
    -build-up is subject to LUCK stat difference between attacker and target
    -bosses have a minimum build-up value below which they can never counter
-allowed to increase base def past 300 but at only half the rate past 285, e.g. raw 335 becomes 310; hard cap at 350. hard cap for buffed def is 400
-added optional manaday_all_elements.ips patch

Yes!  Bugfix update!  And with the tech being weaker!  Nice!!  Thank you so much!

I thought the last time we talked, it was decided -x0.5, but I'm okay with this as well.  x2.18 still seems big, but I'll have to try it out and see.  Is this for MT techs only or for all techs?  I'm okay with either, as Bill/Ben fights have been... hard (only made up thanks to the 3 Angel's Grail I get in the beginning of the raid).

Hmm.  I have a mixed feeling about hard cap for Defense stat.  I mean, I can see why you wanted to do what you did to differentiate between weak DEF characters (such as Angela) and high DEF characters (such as Kevin), not to mention make VIT more meaningful, but if the hardcap for base def is 350 (which I'm sure Duran and Kevin will reach), would normal enemies even be able to do any significant damage by the end of the game?  The Shapeshifters at the end would be a joke.  I obviously haven't tried anything yet, but my guts tell me that.  Perhaps the "half the rate past 285" will make up the difference.  Then again, by the end of the game, DEF becomes sort of meaningless, because all of the final bosses' attacks (or any dangerous ones) do Magic attack... I think.  I honestly don't know, as whatever solution I can think of, there's always drawback.

I was actually kinda okay with the original counter rate (for bosses at least), given that MT tech became weaker.  But this is good too.

[praetarius5018]

I thought the last time we talked, it was decided -x0.5, but I'm okay with this as well.  x2.18 still seems big, but I'll have to try it out and see.  Is this for MT techs only or for all techs?  I'm okay with either, as Bill/Ben fights have been... hard (only made up thanks to the 3 Angel's Grail I get in the beginning of the raid).

It applies to all enemy techs.
-x0.5 was a bit too much for me.

Hmm.  I have a mixed feeling about hard cap for Defense stat.  I mean, I can see why you wanted to do what you did to differentiate between weak DEF characters (such as Angela) and high DEF characters (such as Kevin), not to mention make VIT more meaningful, but if the hardcap for base def is 350 (which I'm sure Duran and Kevin will reach), would normal enemies even be able to do any significant damage by the end of the game?  The Shapeshifters at the end would be a joke.  I obviously haven't tried anything yet, but my guts tell me that.  Perhaps the "half the rate past 285" will make up the difference.

In raw def, Kevin should reach less than 375, so 330 with that change. That's assuming you max out the 22 VIT and hunt all the rare armors from w/a seeds, instead of just getting the pedan body armor and just 18-19 VIT.

Then again, by the end of the game, DEF becomes sort of meaningless, because all of the final bosses' attacks (or any dangerous ones) do Magic attack... I think.

Certain boss spells, especially the big ultimate ones, are actually physical in nature, specifically STR based. I assume that is because all enemies except Koren and Heath have more STR than INT or PIE.

I was actually kinda okay with the original counter rate (for bosses at least), given that MT tech became weaker.  But this is good too.

The main point of that change is to reduce the chance for back to back counters. So instead of always having a 2~5% lottery on each hit it should be slightly more predictable, but over the course of a boss fight, the amount of counters - on average at least - should be similar.

[hmsong]

Hot damn.  Thanks so much.  I've been waiting for this.

I gotta try the new update.  Not today nor tomorrow, but I'll get to it probably this weekend.  I gotta at least remove the changes I did for enemy techs (in some of my hacks, I made enemy MT Lv3 techs have Lv2 tech power, except for werewolves and Shadowzeroes, which I couldn't do anything about).  I wouldn't want to make them too easy.  Maybe I'll make that optional for the Trials of Mana players.


@praetarius5018

Do you know how to change CRC number for this game?  Apparently, it's some kind of identifying code for certain emulator or something, and apparently, my patches change the CRC number.

[praetarius5018]

@praetarius5018

Do you know how to change CRC number for this game?  Apparently, it's some kind of identifying code for certain emulator or something, and apparently, my patches change the CRC number.

No, not my area of expertise. So far I've always ignored that checksum since it would change anyway when you apply a different combination of patches.

[thr]

you guys can try this checksum recalculator: https://www.romhacking.net/utilities/499/

it's also pretty easy to fix manually, just google it.

[Chronosplit]

I had this issue a few years back as well. I used uCON64 and a GUI to correct the checksum every release after that.

[hmsong]

you guys can try this checksum recalculator: https://www.romhacking.net/utilities/499/

it's also pretty easy to fix manually, just google it.

I had this issue a few years back as well. I used uCON64 and a GUI to correct the checksum every release after that.

Is it possible to make my patches so that it doesn't mess with CRC?  According to praetarius5018, CRC changes if you use different combinations of patches, so I get the feeling I won't be able to do anything about it.  I want to make it so that if a person applies my patch (whatever combination), the CRC will remain as the original.

[Nintenja]

Is it possible to make my patches so that it doesn't mess with CRC?  According to praetarius5018, CRC changes if you use different combinations of patches, so I get the feeling I won't be able to do anything about it.  I want to make it so that if a person applies my patch (whatever combination), the CRC will remain as the original.

I believe changing the patching order of multiple patches will lead to a different crc as well. So two roms with the same patches applied but patched in a different order will have a different crc 32 I believe.

[hmsong]

I believe changing the patching order of multiple patches will lead to a different crc as well. So two roms with the same patches applied but patched in a different order will have a different crc 32 I believe.

Okay, so is it even possible to make my patches so that it doesn't mess with CRC?

[Pethronos]

The minimal change you do in a rom, CRC32 will change.

Actually you must embrace the positives of that fact. I have spent enough time combining patches in SD3 and many other games, always checking CRC32 after patching.

Many, many times you can tell that the patches are fully compatible, when, no matter the order of patching, you obtain the same code. It means that the patches affect different parts of the rom, and they don't interfere.

It doesn't fully guarrantee that the rom works correctly, but in many cases it does.

In case of SD3, I've never fully tested, but it seems to work well after patching it with translations, cosmetic hacks, praetarious fixes and your improvements. Many, many combinations result in the same CRC no matter the order of patching. For the combinations that don't, you have given instructions about how to combine your patches.

I wouldn't have been to be able to warn you so quickly about "incompatibilities" between your patches if it hadn't been for CRC32 checkups. So my suggestion is asking you not to worry about messing with checksum fixing.