News: 11 March 2016 - Forum Rules
Current Moderators - DarkSol, KingMike, MathOnNapkins, Azkadellia, Danke

Author Topic: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released  (Read 39994 times)

Gemini

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2026
  • 時を越えよう、そして彼女の元に戻ろう
    • View Profile
    • Apple of Eden
Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
« Reply #40 on: August 28, 2009, 02:18:08 am »
I'm not really sure why we should add this offtopic, but I promise I'll keep it as short as possible.

so apparently, it was Captain Pants in the localization.
In this flashback that is translated as Pants Leader and Mr. Pervert. That's from the official translation of Eternal Punishment (same scene from Innocent Sin). I have no clue where Captain Pants comes from, but I believe it was mentioned by some random douche on youtube comments or something when I posted a preview footage of the translation.

Quote
i'm not sure i'm seeing the argument that "captain" is a mistranslation of "banchou". there aren't really many better words in english to convey that idea (maybe Boss). but using a stilted combination of words to try to improve technical accuracy at the cost of style and quite possibly stylistic accuracy isn't necessarily the best answer.
It's supposed to sound stilted, like the K'ass-u-gay-ama joke. Also, according to Genius:
ばんちょう [番長]

the leader of a group of juvenile delinquents in school
bully
【C】(学校の)がき大将.

And considering he's just a bully at Kasu High, Captain wouldn't have really worked at all.
</offtopic>
I am the lord, you all know my name, now. I got it all: cash, money, and fame.

Kajitani-Eizan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 553
  • You couldn't kill me if I tried to let you
    • View Profile
    • KAJITANI-EIZAN's Patch Site: Reimagination
Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
« Reply #41 on: August 28, 2009, 03:50:26 am »
in an effort to be brief...

- ah, well then Pants Leader is a definite flub.
- you're not really making sense. "kasukou" (滓高 i assume) isn't "supposed to sound stilted", as far as i can tell. are you sure U.G.L. is "supposed" to be stilted in japanese? for example, if it's "pantsu banchou", that isn't stilted.
- you're missing the point by posting a bunch of definitions. the point is that "gang leader" used in that way is very awkward (doubly so now that i've seen the context).
- i don't understand how "captain" wouldn't have worked at all. it fits; see def. 1 @ dictionary.com. if the issue is that it's not precise enough in meaning (since it doesn't indicate that it's a leader of a gang) then what you're telling me is that you'd rather introduce awkwardness not intended to be there in the original version and therefore stylistic inaccuracy rather than a bit of technical inaccuracy.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 03:57:45 am by Kajitani-Eizan »

Gemini

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2026
  • 時を越えよう、そして彼女の元に戻ろう
    • View Profile
    • Apple of Eden
Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
« Reply #42 on: August 28, 2009, 04:11:13 am »
I didn't make the glossary for dialogues, except for a very few terms (most menu related). I'll refrain from posting more about Persona as Tom is the only who can actually answer you in detail. He's kinda AWOL for the moment, so we should probably go back to Porisunottsu now.

PS: "Kasukō" (written as カス校 in game)  is a pun based on kuzu (屑).
I am the lord, you all know my name, now. I got it all: cash, money, and fame.

kingofcrusher

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 220
    • View Profile
Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
« Reply #43 on: August 28, 2009, 04:24:00 am »
I haven't played it yet, but that english translation of the intro is about 1 billion times better than the Japanese original someone posted. One thing I hate about Japanese is how they repeat the same info 40 times per paragraph and take 15 sentences to say something that could be summed up in 3 or 4, but then leave out important info because it's implied. It's probably just a problem unique to games and anime since they're so badly written, but god is it annoying.

KaioShin

  • RHDN Patreon Supporter!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5698
    • View Profile
    • The Romhacking Aerie
Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
« Reply #44 on: August 28, 2009, 05:30:13 am »
-- clearly not the person trying to apply rudimentary Japanese knowledge to produce a dry, boring translation in their head so they can complain about how the translator mistranslated the Japanese kuso as "damn" instead of "shit" in this week's Naruto --

 :thumbsup:
All my posts are merely personal opinions and not statements of fact, even if they are not explicitly prefixed by "In my opinion", "IMO", "I believe", or similar modifiers. By reading this disclaimer you agree to reply in spirit of these conditions.

realworksuks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1031
  • https://www.youtube.com/user/realworksuks
    • View Profile
Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
« Reply #45 on: August 28, 2009, 10:18:10 pm »
This is a very big deal..  awesome!
Check out my gaming Youtube Channel! https://www.youtube.com/user/realworksuks

theteapirate

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 7
  • I like my tea neat!
    • View Profile
Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
« Reply #46 on: August 28, 2009, 11:48:08 pm »
No one is putting his work down. Whatever happened to constructive criticism? I must point out that there are a lot of snide comments in your post directed at us, and potentially anyone else who would raise legitimate concerns with this translation. Calling something unprofessional is not necessarily done with malicious intent just because it's a negative implication.

My "snide comments" were directed towards those who make assumptions based on "a feeling" they get from their years of experience with watching fansubbed anime and their experience in Japanese 101 that they got a C in because  the teacher just didn't get why ending every sentence with "ze" makes sense. I mean, they do it in Bleach all the time! There's a reason why sasukeluvahxoxox69 from <insert favorite fansub group here> doesn't get hired to translate video games even though she can crap out a script every week in 2 hours after the show airs -- because her work is not only elitist in nature but lacks an understanding of what translation is all about -- giving the audience in the translated language as close of an experience as possible to what the audience in the intended language received, an ideal/goal that I don't believe can truly be effectively argued against. Certain sacrifices obviously have to be made from a complete word-by-word, grammar-point-by-grammar-point translation in order to achieve this.

Not to pick on a young student of the language, as many of us thought like this at one point in time (and I have no doubt that he will continue to improve if he's as good as he is with having only taken a year of Japanese), but IMHO, anyone who thinks DarknessSavior's translation of that snippet from the intro is giving the reader a more authentic experience is fundamentally mistaken. Knowing how to localize effectively and efficiently is a process that takes a lot of time, knowledge, and experience.

Additionally, since the example of the whole "you asshole!" thing was brought up, if you're a student of the Japanese language and ever have the chance to do so, I suggest you watch how the Japanese translate a lot of English phrases like that from Hollywood movies into their own language -- it's actually very enlightening and interesting to see. "Curse words" in English often end up sounding a bit more innocent by the choices of the translators in Japanese, since the standards for "profanity" are completely different between the two languages. If Marc's in the process of writing up a post explaining the choices he made for this localization, though, as someone said earlier in the thread, I won't bother trying to explain things further for him.

And since you brought it up, where I come from, constructive criticism means giving a bit of support with your argument rather than just going "this is unprofessional" without any evidence. But enough talk, have at you! ;)

PS: "Kasukō" (written as カス校 in game)  is a pun based on kuzu (屑).

Not to further derail the topic, but just for the sake of understanding, as far as I know, 屑 and カス are not related, the words just have similar meanings. This is just a guess, but if you're basing that off of a glossary of terminology, I think you might have misread it or whoever wrote it worded that point poorly. It's a pun based off when abbreviating the name of the high school in normal Japanese fashion of doing so, you end up with カス高, which if interpreted literally into English would turn out to be something to the effect of "Scum High," except a bit more derogatory and crude, hence the translator's choice of "K'ass-u-gay-ama," which actually works pretty well.
Sincerely,
The Tea Pirate.

Lilinda

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4538
    • View Profile
Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
« Reply #47 on: August 28, 2009, 11:51:04 pm »
teapirate, back down on the insults towards Gemini and DarknessSavior. Now.
Retired moderator/staff member as of July 14th 2016

Gemini

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2026
  • 時を越えよう、そして彼女の元に戻ろう
    • View Profile
    • Apple of Eden
Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
« Reply #48 on: August 28, 2009, 11:57:03 pm »
Not to further derail the topic, but just for the sake of understanding, as far as I know, 屑 and カス are not related, the words just have similar meanings.
There is one Sevens student explaining the joke telling you that is meant to be a pun with kuzu. Same happens with Hanakōji becoming Hanaji (nosebleed, which I actually wanted to be Bleedy Mari at first).
I am the lord, you all know my name, now. I got it all: cash, money, and fame.

snark

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 218
  • 晴天の霹靂
    • View Profile
Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
« Reply #49 on: August 29, 2009, 12:01:17 am »
Teacup party said:

...giving the audience in the translated language as close of an experience as possible to what the audience in the intended language received, an ideal/goal that I don't believe can truly be effectively argued against. Certain sacrifices obviously have to be made from a complete word-by-word, grammar-point-by-grammar-point translation in order to achieve this...."

Nein!!!  *bangs gavel

This is oft' argued here.

Example:

a. Argument 1 = Translation must be translated to show intent of original authors, heretofore known as audience A.

b. Argument 2 =  Translations must be localized for enjoyment of new audience, heretofore
known as audience B.

Argument and blather ensues.
In the words of R. Hillel
...All else is commentary! >:D
"Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it."

theteapirate

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 7
  • I like my tea neat!
    • View Profile
Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
« Reply #50 on: August 29, 2009, 12:18:49 am »
Erm, I sincerely apologize if anything I said came off as insulting to any particular person, especially Gemini and DS, as that was certainly not my intention (my target of satire was Mr. Generic Rabid Animu Fan, not any particular board member); as I said in my post, I only have no respect for those who are giving unfounded opinions, and both of them had legitimate concerns and at the very least offered an alternative, even if I may personally think that another choice is better. Anyway, I'm jumping ship on this topic after this post, as I've pretty much exhausted what I want to say.

Not to further derail the topic, but just for the sake of understanding, as far as I know, 屑 and カス are not related, the words just have similar meanings.
There is one Sevens student explaining the joke telling you that is meant to be a pun with kuzu. Same happens with Hanakōji becoming Hanaji (nosebleed, which I actually wanted to be Bleedy Mari at first).

Hmm, interesting. I can see if the student's explaining that it's supposed to be カス like 屑みたいな意味で, but I've tried Googling a bit around the subject and can't really dig up anything to support an actual link between the words. :/ If you could find that line in the original Japanese, it'd satisfy my curiosity on the subject. :thumbsup:

a. Argument 1 = Translation must be translated to show intent of original authors, heretofore known as audience A.

b. Argument 2 =  Translations must be localized for enjoyment of new audience, heretofore
known as audience B.

It's of my opinion that there's really not much of a difference between Arguments 1 and 2 besides semantics. One could easily say that to express the original intent of the author(s), one must localize it so the audience can enjoy it. But it's all in the interpretation, I suppose!
Sincerely,
The Tea Pirate.

zera9924

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 129
    • View Profile
Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
« Reply #51 on: August 29, 2009, 12:23:43 am »
Quote
what translation is all about -- giving the audience in the translated language as close of an experience as possible to what the audience in the intended language received, an ideal/goal that I don't believe can truly be effectively argued against. Certain sacrifices obviously have to be made from a complete word-by-word, grammar-point-by-grammar-point translation in order to achieve this.

You just had to go and open Pandora's Box, didn't you? Well, I suppose another "literal versus edited" armageddon is way overdue, anyway.

I really just see it as a gray area. I believe there are situations where compromises and rewording would need to be made, but this is proportional to the skill of the translator(s). Basically, if you need to do a lot of rewording, then something is wrong. Given, some scripts just sound crappy in English, but that's another issue.

I don't see how this applies to the matter of Policenauts, either way. Way too much content was changed without sufficient reasoning, and it seems like you're trying to justify a personal bias instead of conceding that a more literal approach would have been perfectly fine in this case. Not that I care. I have no interest in the series. I guess I see no further point in offering or debating my opinions or criticisms in the matter of the translation, if the authors are clearly grounded in the decisions they've made regardless. Frankly, it's their prerogative.

Quote
And since you brought it up, where I come from, constructive criticism means giving a bit of support with your argument rather than just going "this is unprofessional" without any evidence. But enough talk, have at you!

Where I come from, constructive criticism is as dry and brazen as it comes. Often times, a slap in the face was considered among the more polite gestures we used; but I digress... :P
"Homo sum: humani nil a me alienum puto." --Terentius (ca. 190 - 160 B.C.E.)

Kajitani-Eizan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 553
  • You couldn't kill me if I tried to let you
    • View Profile
    • KAJITANI-EIZAN's Patch Site: Reimagination
Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
« Reply #52 on: August 29, 2009, 04:13:55 am »
There is one Sevens student explaining the joke telling you that is meant to be a pun with kuzu.

seriously? that's pretty odd, considering that a pun with kasu makes tons more sense. i had come to the same conclusion as teapirate, that it would be 滓高/カス高. you're saying it is actually カス校, with the kasu being based on 屑, not 滓, though... i mean, you sure?

a. Argument 1 = Translation must be translated to show intent of original authors, heretofore known as audience A.

b. Argument 2 =  Translations must be localized for enjoyment of new audience, heretofore
known as audience B.

what is the difference? you can't effectively show the intent of the authors unless it is localized so the new audience can understand the intent. you can't somehow translate into english while still leaving things as japanese as possible and have the new audience understand the work just as well as the original audience understood the original work. unless your new audience speaks only english while still trying to be as japanese as possible.

so as i see it, broadly speaking, you're either a) localizing, b) not effectively conveying information to your target audience, or c) targeting weeaboos. obviously there are exceptions and whatnot, but they are exceptions and not the norm, imo.

I believe there are situations where compromises and rewording would need to be made, but this is proportional to the skill of the translator(s). Basically, if you need to do a lot of rewording, then something is wrong.

i just totally disagree with this. i just can't see how a more skilled or experienced translator could somehow magically squeeze more japaneseness out of a translation and have to use less rewording to deliver the appropriate experience. obviously, this would be true to an extent, but any guy with a few years' experience can do it. where skill lies is actually editing the translation to deliver the experience that ought to be delivered, or translating it like that in the first place.

Quote
I don't see how this applies to the matter of Policenauts, either way. Way too much content was changed without sufficient reasoning, and it seems like you're trying to justify a personal bias instead of conceding that a more literal approach would have been perfectly fine in this case.

not that i've played it, but going off of the opening that DS posted... that is in no way unjustified. a more literal approach would have sucked ass. seriously, just read DS's translation of it. i'm not knocking his translation at all... it seems pretty decent. however, it isn't the sort of text that should be put into a game. i don't just mean that it should be polished a tiny bit to make sure the grammar and punctuation are fine, and then shoved in there. i mean that the text shouldn't read like ass. and to make it not read like ass, some things will need to be shifted around. it's called editing... editors do it to improve crappy english scripts. why wouldn't you do it to improve english scripts that are crappy because they were translated from another language entirely?

if your argument is that it OUGHT to read like ass, because "the japanese version was like that", please show me quotes from japanese people that say "man this game reads like ass. another fine work from kojima-sensei!" (or if you don't feel like trawling for quotes, just think about how silly that is for a moment.) now ask yourself this: which is truly a greater departure from the japanese version, a few lines being shifted around, or the game suddenly reading like ass? this is a question that asks you to look further than the superficial interpretation of how close a translation is to the source language.

if your argument is that if you just fix up DS's translation a tiny bit, it will sound like perfectly good english, and therefore there's no need to change the text further, then there's not much more we can discuss. i would have to vehemently disagree and would point you towards any other accepted forms of writing, such as novels, magazines, newspapers, academic papers, articles, textbooks, essays, etc. etc. etc. to get a better feel for what constitutes well-written english.

here is a major sticking point -- if you have a decently good grasp on what constitutes well-written english, then fine. but if you don't, how are you to judge if a script is "good enough" to not need further editing? this is in fact something that requires a FAR GREATER grasp of the english language as compared to the grasp of the japanese language required to translate it. (i'm not saying you don't have such command; i'm just making a general observation and providing a possible explanation for why the more extreme purist weeaboo types might think they way they do.)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 04:32:40 am by Kajitani-Eizan »

Next Gen Cowboy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1766
  • "People are like dice"
    • View Profile
Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
« Reply #53 on: August 29, 2009, 06:39:26 am »

You just had to go and open Pandora's Box, didn't you? Well, I suppose another "literal versus edited" armageddon is way overdue, anyway.

No it's not! We do this every week here, and we rehash the same points over and over, and we all know where each person stands. If you don't; look around it's easy enough to find.

If you all want to discuss this it is fine, but we are going to do it in a civilized manner, purely out of respect (and because we can). Keep it clean, keep it factual; if you are going to give opinions than support them.

The only thing I will add is something that bears repeating "the best thing you can do to get the proper conext of the translation is to play it"
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 07:45:52 am by Next gen Cowboy »
"Remember when we were in Japan? You said you were my gun, if you're the gun then that means I'm the bullet."

"All my life I've been waiting for the gunpowder to go off, you know what you need to ignite gunpowder? You need a gun."

BRPXQZME

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4572
  • じー
    • View Profile
    • The BRPXQZME Network
Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
« Reply #54 on: August 29, 2009, 05:55:08 pm »
I come from the more literal school of thought, but I think this translation is just dandy the way it is. :thumbsup:

If you’ve got some notes I could use for TokiMemo PSX, I’d be much obliged.
we are in a horrible and deadly danger

Viewer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 155
    • View Profile
Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
« Reply #55 on: August 30, 2009, 12:45:18 am »
During that final bit at the end, I was expecting to read "Space is disease and danger wrapped in darkness and silence!" Or just replace the whole of that rant with it - it sums up the game pretty well.

Suzaku

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1335
  • Job change!
    • View Profile
    • Studio Llama
Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
« Reply #56 on: August 30, 2009, 04:51:47 am »
I've said it before, and it seems appropriate to repeat it now....

The art (yes ART!) of translation is all about translating what's being said, not what's being said. In other words, if you look at a string of words and grammar and translate each individual thing, you will fail. Miserably. When translating, there are two things that NEED to be kept in mind: the translation needs to convey all the information the original does, and the translation needs to speak with the same characterization as the original.

As an example, when translating dialogue you look at what the sentence is saying, not just at what the words are saying. Once you know what the point of that line of dialogue is--what information is being literally conveyed, you then need to look at how it's being said. This is especially important in games without spoken dialogue, as the player can't try to get emotion or characterization from the vocals (as there aren't any).

How does all this apply to Policenauts? Take the snipped DS posted. I would likely have erred on the side of including some of the stuff that was snipped. It's a personal preference, and one that every translator must figure out for themselves. Some prefer the more heavily localized route, others do not. That said, however, Marc absolutely NAILED the tone of the dialogue. Reading the text gives a ton of insight into the character just by speech pattern and word choice. I do not think it could have been done better in that regard. Seriously. Well done!

Something else to keep in mind is that one cannot judge a game translation solely on the video subtitles. I believe it was mentioned before, but there are certain constraints one is under when subtitling that don't really exist when all one has to worry about are boxes of text.

Anyway, rant over, etc. Suffice it to say that this translation is a brilliant job. Yes, there are some things I likely would have done differently, and other things that DS would have done differently, but show me two translators who would do a game exactly the same way and I'll see about getting you some tickets for a ski vacation in Ye Olde Subterranean Land of Fire and Brimstone. Marc clearly understands the essence of translation (and with him being a professional tranlator, I'd sure hope so), and I don't think anyone playing the game is going to have to worry about lost in translation type stuff.

Good on ya, Policenauts team!

DarknessSavior

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5031
  • Darkness.
    • View Profile
    • DS: No, not the Nintendo one.
Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
« Reply #57 on: August 30, 2009, 05:05:41 am »
The art (yes ART!) of translation is all about translating what's being said, not what's being said.

I gotta tell you. I laughed.

That said, however, Marc absolutely NAILED the tone of the dialogue. Reading the text gives a ton of insight into the character just by speech pattern and word choice. I do not think it could have been done better in that regard. Seriously. Well done!

This I will give you. While I may not think that the content that is in the translation is the greatest, it does indeed sound like a detective saying those things. But there needs to be more of a balance, methinks.

~DS
Red Comet: :'( Poor DS. Nobody loves him like RC does. :'(
Sliver-X: LET ME INFRINGE UPON IT WITH MY MOUTH
DSRH - Currently working on: Demon's Blazon, Romancing SaGa, FFIV EasyType.
http://www.youtube.com/user/DarknessSavior

zera9924

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 129
    • View Profile
Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
« Reply #58 on: August 30, 2009, 09:54:31 pm »
Quote
you can't effectively show the intent of the authors unless it is localized so the new audience can understand the intent. you can't somehow translate into english while still leaving things as japanese as possible and have the new audience understand the work just as well as the original audience understood the original work. unless your new audience speaks only english while still trying to be as japanese as possible.

I think we're at a misunderstanding, in that case. What I mean by being literal is both keeping the wording intact as much as feasibly possible, but also carrying over the literal subtext, emotion, context, and other bits that are often lost in translation. Translation isn't just a matter of translating a string word-per-word, but also finding an equivalent way of expressing the character's emotions, accent, or other intricacies. An expression that's socially understood in Japanese won't necessarily be understood by an English audience, and vice-versa. In the same logic, I understand why localization teams may edit-out bits of Japanese culture, like replacing sushi with hotdogs or what-not.

Now I think I see the issue here. You guys are arguing against people who strictly feel "being literal" means translating something word-per-word, without any consideration to whether or not it makes sense to the target audience, or that the character's emotions or accents aren't carried over in some equivalent way. Some people even want to go as far as to leave honorifics intact. :laugh:

(although, again -- this doesn't seem to apply to the Policenauts debate / discussion)
"Homo sum: humani nil a me alienum puto." --Terentius (ca. 190 - 160 B.C.E.)

Kajitani-Eizan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 553
  • You couldn't kill me if I tried to let you
    • View Profile
    • KAJITANI-EIZAN's Patch Site: Reimagination
Re: Translations: Policenauts for PSX released
« Reply #59 on: August 30, 2009, 10:17:22 pm »
I think we're at a misunderstanding, in that case. What I mean by being literal is both keeping the wording intact as much as feasibly possible, but also carrying over the literal subtext, emotion, context, and other bits that are often lost in translation.

ah... then i think you're on the wrong "side" of this discussion :P

Quote
Now I think I see the issue here. You guys are arguing against people who strictly feel "being literal" means translating something word-per-word, without any consideration to whether or not it makes sense to the target audience, or that the character's emotions or accents aren't carried over in some equivalent way. Some people even want to go as far as to leave honorifics intact. :laugh:

(although, again -- this doesn't seem to apply to the Policenauts debate / discussion)

but it does. i had the impression that some people thought they were far too liberal, and wanted something more true to the japanese version or something. i can only assume these people are the type who prefer a more "literal" translation, who complain when sentences are rearranged. i assume this because i seem to recall someone complaining about exactly that.

if we're claiming that these people indeed support a localization-based approach, now we're on really dubious ground. how is it that they're interested in "carrying over the literal subtext, emotion, context, and other bits that are often lost in translation" and "finding an equivalent way of expressing the character's emotions, accent, or other intricacies", yet they have such problems when the translation of policenauts seems to do exactly that and no more? these people should be saying "Bravo!", not complaining about how impure the translation is.

unless you're saying they're all for localization, but policenauts went too far. i mean, that's a pretty damn narrow target segment along the localization vs. stiff translation axis we're talking about, there. hell, i'm not sure you can really reasonably claim to be a proponent of both of those opinions. hence my disbelief. i dunno, maybe i haven't really played the game and hence i missed the parts where jonathan talks way out of line, but at least based on the intro, it sure doesn't look like that's a very reasonable claim. it's like they're concerned about how it ought to be 3.22 along the localization vs. stiff translation axis instead of 3.24, when changes by 0.1 are really the finest you can reasonably resolve.