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Author Topic: Tomato Adventure (GBA) translation/tools  (Read 37593 times)

PZT

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Re: Tomato Adventure (GBA) translation/tools
« Reply #80 on: August 05, 2021, 08:12:07 am »
While it's claimed that Gimmick Land was finished, that doesn't actually appear to be the case. It seems that when the decision was made to go to GBA, they left a few things unfinished in the GBC version.

The battle backgrounds in the GBC version are just plain white while the GBA has more detailed backgrounds. Plus it seems that most characters aren't animated in battles. That alone makes me wonder what else the devs didn't quite finish before moving onto doing a GBA version.

I had seriously considered working on a translation, but it does appear that the GBC prototype is unfinished and in need of additional work to truly be complete. Plus why would someone bother working on an unfinished game when they could be doing other stuff? To my knowledge the prototype doesn't really have any content that's not present in the GBA release. In my opinion it would probably be a waste of one's time to work on a translation of the prototype.
It passed lotcheck and was assigned a product code and everything though, doesn't that mean it essentially "went gold" and was ready to ship?
Plain white backgrounds might have been just how the game was intended to look originally, Pokemon also has plain white backgrounds on the same tech
If none of the characters were animated I'd also say that was how that's intended to look, but your post makes it sound like it's inconsistent which characters are animated and which aren't, that does sound like a point in favor of it being unfinished

zuzma

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Re: Tomato Adventure (GBA) translation/tools
« Reply #81 on: August 05, 2021, 10:36:56 am »
It feels like a complete game to me, I'm playing it now because I wanted to compare it to tomato adventure. I'm pretty sure the backgrounds and character animation were intended to be like that, it sort of reminds me of pokemon. They probably changed it because they had more space on the gameboy advance cart. Then again the gba one feels more like a port then a completely different game. I don't think it's really worth translating if you ask me except for maybe historical reasons.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2021, 10:50:27 am by zuzma »

CrazyMLC

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Re: Tomato Adventure (GBA) translation/tools
« Reply #82 on: August 06, 2021, 02:38:43 am »
As far as I'm aware, the text of Gimmick Land is identical to Tomato Adventure.
If you're already familiar with the events of Tomato Adventure, you can just play through Gimmick Land untranslated and not miss much if anything.

Mattiac

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Re: Tomato Adventure (GBA) translation/tools
« Reply #83 on: August 16, 2021, 10:16:20 am »
Unknown-san, thank you all so very much for this superb translation! Nintendo is in your debt.
Please translate Lady Stalker for SNES!

[Unknown]

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Re: Tomato Adventure (GBA) translation/tools
« Reply #84 on: August 21, 2021, 11:34:34 pm »
A couple people made a comment on this dialog:

Quote
The gal at the counter...
is in fact a dude dressed
up as a gal.
As the saying goes -
different strokes for
different folks.

It's a relatively, but not exactly, direct translation from the Japanese:

Quote
うけつけの子って じつは‥‥
男の子 なのよ.
女の子みたいな カッコしてるけど
あれは 本人の シュミなのよ.

Which doesn't refer to a saying but rather refers to the activity as a word that is often translated as "hobby".

I'm considering if it should be changed (which would basically have to move it away from the original Japanese meaning), or just left be.  An alternate I'm considering:

Quote
The gal at the counter...
used to act like a dude.
I think she likes it better
this way.

For context, another character refers to this same person as "a real cutie", but that's about all there is here and none of it is even slightly important to the plot.  My intent is not to offend anyone, but just to have a version of the game people can play.

I will say, if this game had been released in 2021, I doubt this character would've said this.

Anyone have any opinions here?

Also, as an update, a few small spacing and line wrapping tweaks have been pushed to GitHub.  Nothing major.  I do plan to make an updated release soon, so if I decide to change this dialog, I want to include it in the upcoming release.

-[Unknown]

emilydotgif

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Re: Tomato Adventure (GBA) translation/tools
« Reply #85 on: August 21, 2021, 11:44:10 pm »
As a trans woman, I think the last one is much better. Seems a lot more kind and accepting of trans people than the first one. Thank you for asking the community before doing anything final, I appreciate you wanting to know how others feel about it :) I've already played half of the game in its current translated format and I love it and can't wait to see the final product <3

A couple people made a comment on this dialog:

It's a relatively, but not exactly, direct translation from the Japanese:

Which doesn't refer to a saying but rather refers to the activity as a word that is often translated as "hobby".

I'm considering if it should be changed (which would basically have to move it away from the original Japanese meaning), or just left be.  An alternate I'm considering:

For context, another character refers to this same person as "a real cutie", but that's about all there is here and none of it is even slightly important to the plot.  My intent is not to offend anyone, but just to have a version of the game people can play.

I will say, if this game had been released in 2021, I doubt this character would've said this.

Anyone have any opinions here?

Also, as an update, a few small spacing and line wrapping tweaks have been pushed to GitHub.  Nothing major.  I do plan to make an updated release soon, so if I decide to change this dialog, I want to include it in the upcoming release.

-[Unknown]

Captain Tudmoke

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Re: Tomato Adventure (GBA) translation/tools
« Reply #86 on: August 21, 2021, 11:56:24 pm »
In my opinion, your proposed edit successfully straddles the line between textual fidelity and cultural sensitivity—the gist of the text as you relay it seems to be that the character is perfectly fine with the "shumi" of the gal at the counter, which in 2021 would likely map onto acceptance of her gender identity. And it's just ambiguous enough that the character isn't quite "outing" her (maybe she's a cis woman who went through a tomboy phase!), but the intended meaning is clear enough to anyone willing to read between the lines. Very solid stuff!

Mattiac

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Re: Tomato Adventure (GBA) translation/tools
« Reply #87 on: August 24, 2021, 10:16:16 am »
Unknown-san, I want the English translation to be as similar to the Japanese text as possible!
Please translate Lady Stalker for SNES!

Masaru

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Re: Tomato Adventure (GBA) translation/tools
« Reply #88 on: August 24, 2021, 10:33:10 am »
Unknown-san, I want the English translation to be as similar to the Japanese text as possible!
In theory you can do it by yourself with the source code

zuzma

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Re: Tomato Adventure (GBA) translation/tools
« Reply #89 on: August 24, 2021, 10:38:42 am »
I'd say just use the second one for the sake of not getting into some kind of argument over it even if the original text isn't very nice to begin with.

aqualung

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Re: Tomato Adventure (GBA) translation/tools
« Reply #90 on: August 24, 2021, 12:49:07 pm »
I'd say just use the second one for the sake of not getting into some kind of argument over it even if the original text isn't very nice to begin with.

It's a sad state of affairs how "hawingtowalkoneggshells-ish" the fantranslations scene has been forced to become.

In any case, given it's just a minor modification that affects only a single line of text, I'd release two patches. One with the literal translation and another more friendly with sensitive people.

Another thing I thought is: sometimes, a word becoming a slur happens so suddenly that translators can end up using a word without even knowing it and end up receiving an undeserved bashing. So, is there a website like a "slur-pedia" in which one could consult a word he/she suspects might be offensive before adding it into a translation? Because, if there isn't, it might be a nice idea to create one.

zuzma

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Re: Tomato Adventure (GBA) translation/tools
« Reply #91 on: August 24, 2021, 01:23:36 pm »
I don't think it's really worth releasing two patches over such a minor change. Nintendo would have taken that out in a localization probably. Anyway I was mostly just concerned because another translation had a similar issue and the outcome was much worse

CrazyMLC

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Re: Tomato Adventure (GBA) translation/tools
« Reply #92 on: August 24, 2021, 02:57:48 pm »
It's a sad state of affairs how "hawingtowalkoneggshells-ish" the fantranslations scene has been forced to become.

In any case, given it's just a minor modification that affects only a single line of text, I'd release two patches. One with the literal translation and another more friendly with sensitive people.
[...]
At the end of the day, we are releasing for the audience of 2021, not the audience of 2002. The only sad part is that we didn't do our job properly the first time... even after this change, there will be people who decide not to play the game because of the original dialogue. And it'll be because we made a mistake.

There is no way that a second patch is being released for a single line of throwaway dialogue by a random NPC. If it's something you want, however...

In theory you can do it by yourself with the source code
Yes, and it would be pretty simple. After cloning the GitHub repo to your PC, you could edit ta_script_eng.txt however you see fit. [Unknown] has made modifying the game remarkably easy.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2021, 03:09:02 pm by CrazyMLC »

aqualung

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Re: Tomato Adventure (GBA) translation/tools
« Reply #93 on: August 24, 2021, 03:20:56 pm »
At the end of the day, we are releasing for the audience of 2021, not the audience of 2002. The only sad part is that we didn't do our job properly the first time... even after this change, there will be people who decide not to play the game because of the original dialogue. And it'll be because we made a mistake.

There is no way that a second patch is being released for a single line of throwaway dialogue by a random NPC. If it's something you want, however...
Yes, and it would be pretty simple. After cloning the GitHub repo to your PC, you could edit ta_script_eng.txt however you see fit. [Unknown] has made modifying the game remarkably easy.

The way I see it, the ones making a mistake are the ones not wanting to play it because of a single line that can be easily ignored. But to each their own, it's their loss, not ours  ;) I've played lots of games with dialogs saying things I don't 100% agree, and this has never stopped myself from enjoying them.

About modifying the patch by oneself, precisely this week I'm taking a 3 day course on the use of git and github, so if anyone really wants the game to be patched with the untouched, original dialogue meaning, I'm willing to do it.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2021, 06:39:37 pm by aqualung »

sharksnack

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Re: Tomato Adventure (GBA) translation/tools
« Reply #94 on: August 24, 2021, 03:56:46 pm »
I find it bizarre that people would be offended by that dialogue. The character saying "different strokes for different folks" shows that they don't think it's a problem, and accepts them for who they are. (or at worst, they're neutral about it)

It's one thing to censor slurs, but to censor a mention of crossdressing in a context where it's being accepted? I feel like it's a case of people looking to be offended / trying to stir up controversy for fun instead of taking a close look at what's actually being said.

So alright, let's say some players somehow genuinely feel uncomfortable after reading that. How will they learn to tolerate discomfort if they continue to try and bend whatever they don't like? Perhaps it's time to do some introspection and understand that not everything is a personal attack.

I realize this comes across strongly, and I don't mean to be insensitive at all. It's just frustrating to see translations (not just this game, but in general) bend to the will of a few vocal people who are looking to be offended, rather than preserving the original character.

VicVergil

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Re: Tomato Adventure (GBA) translation/tools
« Reply #95 on: August 24, 2021, 04:32:31 pm »
I don't think Alphadream made anything worth getting offended about here.
Crossdressing (the actual words used... which could be safely called a "hobby" or a "preference", unlike gender orientation) isn't something offensive that needs to be censored in 2021. Nintendo games no longer censor crossdressing when localized. The existence of crossdressers in real life isn't offensive.

The maintainers of the translation shouldn't erase trap/crossdressing subculture, or fall into this rabbit hole of accidentally introducing offensive content by rewriting the multi-line characterization of an NPC into something it's not meant to be. It's a disaster waiting to happen. And I'm sure the people demanding this change will be the first to change their tone and blame the translators for the consequences when that happens. On the other hand, THEY won't accept any responsibility for that change. Until I see them putting effort in an actual patch under THEIR NAME that includes their improvements rather than half-hearted visions, that entitlement rings hollow.

The compromise of including two versions of the patch is ideal, even though reinterpreting entire characterizations is better served in hacks where that's the entire purpose (like the gender neutral Legend of Zelda retranslations) and where the author is focused on that matter rather than translation.
Including the original version is desirable to avoid the translation team being held as prejudiced against crossdressers, or holding views that trivialize the lived transgender experience.

You think Alphadream playing it safe with a crossdressing NPC was a missed opportunity compared to writing a trans character? The game has even more missed opportunities in its writing. You can write better fanfiction with more depth to all of those characters and submit it as a patch to improve the writing of the game, and it will be the first of its kind... well, the third, after Mother 3 and Secret of Mana. All tools are available for that.

CrazyMLC

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Re: Tomato Adventure (GBA) translation/tools
« Reply #96 on: August 24, 2021, 04:43:30 pm »
Unfortunately, the current translation is very vague. It doesn't mention a "hobby" (crossdressing) of any kind, and leaves it up to the reader to decide why a gal would "in fact" be a dude.
It is not literal, and it is not particularly faithful. It should be changed, by any standard.

For those of you wanting a literal, "faithful to the original" translation, neither translation should satisfy you. You're probably looking for something like this:
Quote
That receptionist...
Is a dude.
He dresses like a
gal as a hobby.
Hopefully this illustrates that attributing more accuracy to the current translation is a mistake; translation is an iterative process, not something that is successful on the first try.
Unfortunately, it's too late for that kind of translation, even we wanted to go with it.

Many people have already assumed (justifiably so) that the receptionist is actually a transwoman, who is being misgendered and disrespected by this NPC.
While we could fix this by making the translation more accurate, but I don't think we are in a position to ignore what's already been published and viewed by so many people.
Would removing the transwoman receptionist not be just another form of "censorship"?

That's the consequence of having to fix a poorly translated line of dialogue like this. We will be accused of censorship no matter what choice we make. That's why it's our mistake that we didn't catch it before release.

Anyways, does the alternate translation [Unknown] showed actually remove the concept of crossdressing? I believe it could still be read that way, like Captain Tudmoke mentioned.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2021, 05:43:00 pm by CrazyMLC »

VicVergil

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Re: Tomato Adventure (GBA) translation/tools
« Reply #97 on: August 24, 2021, 05:41:15 pm »
For those of you wanting a literal, "faithful to the original" translation, neither translation should satisfy you. You're probably looking for something like this

Err... no.
I can read Japanese and that quote of yours is inaccurate.

うけつけって じつは‥‥
男の子 なのよ.
女の子みたいな カッコしてるけど
あれは 本人の シュミなのよ.

=

"That kid (gender-neutral) you're looking for, is actually... a boy (child).
[The kid] is dressed in girly-looking clothes, but that's personal hobbies for you, I guess."


I tried to keep it as literal as possible, without assuming any gender or characterization.
The way Alphadream wrote this is offensive only if YOU take offense at crossdressers expressing themselves without being misgendered based on their looks. The available information in the game about this character is that it's a child male character, you want it misgendered, while accusing others (Alphadream, the translators, your critics) of misgendering it. Then it's just as likely you turn back on your words and blame the translators for misgendering this character AFTER they implement the "fix". (All what it would take is an art book about Tomato Adventure being discovered that proves that this character is canonically male, then YOU would say it's the translator's fault.)

At this point, it's very clear this is very outside of the scope of how the translation process should be like.

If you think every "man with a dress" is actually transgender, your worldview is very reductive of transgender issues and what gender identity means. What you're advocating for is something Nintendo would be blamed for if they did it in 2021. Just imagine if JoJo translators had to follow your "localization guidelines".

You're not making the translation "more accurate" (the translator never committed a mistake in the first place, and "personal hobbies" = "different strokes for different folks", the second one is even less vague, like what the hell with blaming the translator here?) but you're blaming the translator for content written by the original developers which you want changed in a way you could still blame him for but then it would be HIS responsibility.



Please have a more positive contribution to this project, and make a new patch on your own. The tools are all there. Look up all of the lines that refer to this NPC (who's part of a sidequest, and whom lots of other NPCs refer to, with the original trap crossdresser characterization in mind which would be incredibly distasteful interactions as a transwoman character) and work on YOUR patch that changes how this character identifies as. Because that's a pretty big deal, one that YOU should take responsibility for, because YOU want to change the story of this game, not to fix a mistake the TRANSLATOR made.

Your demands are outside of the scope of a translator's job (hobby, in this case). Please don't try to cause the translators trouble with things they shouldn't be liable for.

I'm beyond appalled positive representation of crossdressers is something you perceive as a problem. I'll need to take a break from this thread lest I lose the little faith in humanity I have left.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2021, 05:50:16 pm by VicVergil »

CrazyMLC

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Re: Tomato Adventure (GBA) translation/tools
« Reply #98 on: August 24, 2021, 06:00:24 pm »
If you think every "man with a dress" is actually transgender, your worldview is very reductive of transgender issues and what gender identity means. What you're advocating for is something Nintendo would be blamed for if they did it in 2021. Just imagine if JoJo translators had to follow your "localization guidelines".
I think you misunderstand me...
I am not speaking of my own experience of the game.

Because I worked on the translation as an artist, I have been watching playthroughs and viewing comments online about it, wondering if I missed any graphics that might need to be edited.
I have watched at least one playthrough end because the streamers were told that the game contained "transphobic dialogue," as well as multiple comments online about the same "transphobic dialogue" making people uninterested in playing the game.
I didn't know what they were talking about, until I found a tweet mentioning this dialogue by someone I had been @'d by.
There are even transwomen within this very thread that are appreciative of the modified dialogue. I find it difficult to simply ignore them and say the old dialogue has no problems. What would you do?


I apologize for my negative comments about the translation; I have never talked to the translator myself, but I know for a fact they worked very hard on this script, and they've done a wonderful job overall.
Additionally, thank you for your efforts making a new translation of this line of dialogue.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2021, 06:50:56 pm by CrazyMLC »

sharksnack

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Re: Tomato Adventure (GBA) translation/tools
« Reply #99 on: August 24, 2021, 06:54:09 pm »
For whatever it's worth at this point, this is the tone I get when I read the dialogue in Japanese:

Did you know? The receptionist is actually a boy.
He's dressed like a girl, but that's his personal hobby.

The "did you know?" wasn't there in the original, but it's to try and make it clear in English that the NPC is just sharing a fact, rather than casting judgement - I've found ellipses as used in Japanese dialogue can be hard to understand for English speakers, so keeping them can be problematic. (I'm sure someone would still find a way to be offended with the above, though).

But yeah, it's really unfortunate that streamers and twitter latched on to a misunderstanding. Not sure what can be done about it honestly, since there's no end to people drooling with their pitchforks in hand waiting for the next bit of outrage.