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Author Topic: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project  (Read 15222 times)

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #40 on: July 13, 2020, 11:32:48 am »
Wow! A -lot- of thought went into adding back the lore into the Augmented script. This one I'm genuinely looking forward to reading.

My memory of game 1 and 2 script details is flaky. But it sounds like the Empire and the Mana protectors are all acting on theory. No one has tried or done it, just doing actions from alleged religion, philosophy, mythology about the Hidden Land and the Seeds. It's been way too long (?) between 1 and 2 so everything is kinda forgotten and muddied up down the verbal lore inheritance.

Only towards the end do both sides get a grasp and figure out the important pieces of the grand puzzle. Desperation for one side and knowledge / power by the other.

And maybe it depends on the user. The good users want to protect, preserve the life in the Seed by sealing and limiting access. The bad users want to absorb the Seeds dry and leave nothing but it to wither until nature generates new Seeds to correct the unbalance.

You bring up an interesting point.  One of the things we uncovered in Japanese sources was that the Emperor started the contract with Mavolia thing solely to win the war against Tasnica and Pandora 15 years prior.  This goes along with the "bad users" wanting to use the Mana Seeds as a result of evil in their hearts...or whatever.  We also discovered some things about Mavolia in the Japanese guide for the remake.  Mavolia is not explained well in SD2 or SoM.  Some of this stuff was cut from the 2018 remake, and we added it to Shade's speech:

Code: [Select]
SHADE:I am Shade, the elemental of darkness and f'rm'r king of the und'rw'rld, eke known as Mavolia. I did cause the w'rld to trembleth in fear.

RANDI:Mavolia? What kind of powers does the underworld have?

SHADE:Mavolia exists due to the chains of ang'r, envy, resentment and negative feelings towards oth'rs. There, pow'r is life. It is proclaimed that those with strength ruleth the weak. Indeed: Ang'r, envy, resentment...

These negative emotions art what feedeth the subjugation of less'r beings and they tempeth humans into defiling their souls with darkness. At which hour a human maketh a contract with Mavolia, those humans gain the pow'r they seek in exchange f'r their pure heart. Anon, they're in the darkness and doth not wish f'r tranquility. They may resideth in the human realm, but their p'rson is reclaim'd by the un'rw'rld. Alas, mine own pow'rs w're seal'd hence by h'roes in the Ancient past. But you lot, who is't defeat'd the incarnation of this pow'r must be the new h'roes. In acc'rdance with the laws of Mavolia, my powers art bestow'd upon all of thee!

As for the original problem, after much discussion, we all agreed that sealing the Mana Seeds and powering the Mana Sword happen simultaneously.  Basically, Randi reseals the Seeds, and then the Empire went back and unsealed them.  That's the best explanation as to why Luka's in prison at the end.  It's hinted at in the Japanese script, but like many things, did not find its way into English.  All of the dialogue surrounding this concept was fleshed out to make the point clearer.  This is the Emperor's new speech in the Tree Palace:

Code: [Select]
EMPEROR:Kukuku...I thought it was about time you got here. But, no one will get in my way! If all those seals you spent so much time on were dissolved, the Ancient continent would be "sunken" no more! So we went ahead and did just that! While you were strolling about the globe, we made our own sort of offering at the Palaces. Your quest is in vain! But actually, there is one seal left that you didn't even get to---the one right here at the Tree Palace! Once we dissolve it, the continent will surface and the Mana Fortress will be resurrected! I regret that I won't be able to show it to you. Kukuku...
This is the more literal translation:

Code: [Select]
Ku ku ku, I expected that you would arrive soon. However, I won't allow you to stand in my way! If the seals on the Temples throughout the world are dissolved, what has until now been called the "sunken" ancient continent will rise to the surface! Already, the seals on the temples throughout the world have been undone. The last one is here. With this, the Mana Fortress will be resurrected! It's a shame that you won't be able to see it. Ku ku ku...
Compare with Woolsey:

Code: [Select]
EMPEROR:So glad to see you! You're going to like this. The ancient continent will surface once I've broken all the palace seals. Once I break this last seal, the Mana Fortress will rise! Too bad you won't be around!
and the 2018 remake:

Code: [Select]
Right on schedule. I thought you'd turn up. The ancient continent will surface once I've broken all the palace seals throughout the world. This is the last one. With this, the Mana Fortress will rise again! Too bad you won't be around to savor the sight.
While I'm at it, we consulted scores of Japanese promotional materials that came out well before release.  One of them indicates that the Emperor died during the war, was somehow resurrected, and the citizens of the Empire could not figure out how this was possible.  The answer of course, is that Serin killed him but he had the power of Mavolia, which is briefly explained in Japanese but totally left out of both English versions. 
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 02:47:16 pm by ManaRedux »

artflue

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #41 on: July 13, 2020, 01:46:04 pm »
Your rewrite is well thought out! Refreshing to read the updated lines. Comes off more as poetry now. :)

Just that small new information expands new horizons on what's going on behind.

With all the information your group can uncover, it'd almost make sense to have a "novelization" of some sort covering all the material. That'd be hours of worthy reading.



Quote
One of the things we uncovered in Japanese sources was that the Emperor started the contract with Mavolia thing solely to win the war against Tasnica and Pandora 15 years prior.  This goes along with the "bad users" wanting to use the Mana Seeds as a result of evil in their hearts...or whatever.

Sounds like the Emperor got frustrated and hit a solid roadblock in the war? Once he learned about Mavolia, he had a shiny new toy to use. Got over-obsessed with what he could do with it and naturally got greedy and wanted more. Once that black stain got in, it won't come out. Was he originally that evil before the tainting? I'm not sure.


Quote
As for the original problem, after much discussion, we all agreed that sealing the Mana Seeds and powering the Mana Sword happen simultaneously.  Basically, Randi reseals the Seeds, and then the Empire went back and unsealed them.  That's the best explanation as to why Luka's in prison at the end.  It's hinted at in the Japanese script, but like many things, did not find its way into English.

...

So we went ahead and did just that! While you were strolling about the globe, we made our own sort of offering at the Palaces.

It flows so naturally logical it'd be hard to argue against.



Did the Emperor take his time undoing the seals again in a more "proper", "iron-clad" way? Like in a stealthy, not obvious way to grab attention.

Or did they use military tactics and just "ambush" all the sites at once towards the end to avoid another tug-of-war with the heroes? I'm assuming at that time the Mana Knights maybe had such a narrow focus and were "over-confident" by their earlier victories. A "sleight of hand" by the Emperor in case "Plan A" failed.

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #42 on: July 14, 2020, 09:34:31 am »
Your rewrite is well thought out! Refreshing to read the updated lines. Comes off more as poetry now. :)

Just that small new information expands new horizons on what's going on behind.

With all the information your group can uncover, it'd almost make sense to have a "novelization" of some sort covering all the material. That'd be hours of worthy reading.

Thank you.  Shade's speech is a combination of the original, information from the remake's Japanese strategy guide and a rework of deleted lines run through the Elizabethan English translator, rewritten endless times.  On the Super Famicom, he sounds old as he uses some Classical Japanese patterns.  Sentences ending with なり are a dead giveaway for that.

Quote
Sounds like the Emperor got frustrated and hit a solid roadblock in the war? Once he learned about Mavolia, he had a shiny new toy to use. Got over-obsessed with what he could do with it and naturally got greedy and wanted more. Once that black stain got in, it won't come out. Was he originally that evil before the tainting? I'm not sure.

We had the same question and searched in vain to find the answer.  The original motivation of the war is unknown. 

Quote
Did the Emperor take his time undoing the seals again in a more "proper", "iron-clad" way? Like in a stealthy, not obvious way to grab attention.

Or did they use military tactics and just "ambush" all the sites at once towards the end to avoid another tug-of-war with the heroes? I'm assuming at that time the Mana Knights maybe had such a narrow focus and were "over-confident" by their earlier victories. A "sleight of hand" by the Emperor in case "Plan A" failed.

This is another question with hardly anything in the way of an answer.  This is what Luka says in our version after they come back to the Water Palace:

Code: [Select]
LUKA:Whew, I've really had a rough time! Such incredible effrontery! Some of the Empire's cronies came here, locked me up, and dissolved the seal on the Mana Seed...again! The seals on the Mana Seeds can not be broken if thou wish to restore the Sword! I'm not sure what can be done as I don't know any other way to restore it. And I shudder to think what will happen if the Fortress returns and the Sword is not powerful enough to defeat it. I guess there's nothing left to do but wait for a miracle. Also, POPOIE, thou shouldst check in on your grandfather! They must have gone back to the Wind Palace too...
Compare to the Super Famicom:

Code: [Select]
LUKA:Whew, I've really had a rough time! Such unbelievable insolence! Some of the Empire's cronies came here, locked me up in here, and undid the seal on the Mana Seed. If the seals on the Mana Seeds are all dissolved before you can revive the Mana Sword, I don't know that we'd be able to do anything. There'd be nothing left to do but wait for a miracle...
Ironically, the SNES and 2018 version are clearer than the original.  I don't think there'd be a huge amount of resistance from Luka, so this was likely an easy task.  I expanded her speech because "I don't know that we'd be able to do anything" is a vague reference to what we discussed about the Mana Seeds earlier.  I also inserted a reference to Popoie's grandfather, because he is the only other one who inhabits a Palace.  The rest are deserted, so if the Empire went back and unsealed everything, he certainly would have been involved.  If they have not returned to the Wind Palace, we added this exchange:

Code: [Select]
POPOIE:Gramps! I’m so glad to see you’re all right!
GRANDPA:Yes, chibi. They came to break your seal, but this time, I sensed that they were coming and hid out in the woods. Now go, restore Mana!

It's a necessary invention because otherwise, he makes no reference to these events.  I'm certain that this mass unsealing would have been more than just a hint had the game been realized as intended.  It's possible that this is where Fanha's role was supposed to be.  In Japanese, it is clear from how she talks to Randi that she really does not like him specifically, almost to the point of obsession.  Considering that the characters have no history with her, who knows why she was supposed to feel this way?
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 02:46:49 pm by ManaRedux »

knderia

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #43 on: July 14, 2020, 12:51:14 pm »
Would it be possible to insert extra NPCs or in-game books, diaries that add all the interesting fun details you uncovered that didn't make the script?


My guess with Fanha would be .. maybe strong desire to bring back the sunken continent? Since the heroes have the exact opposite goal, she'd hate them just from any hearsay alone.

azidahaka

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #44 on: July 14, 2020, 02:34:55 pm »
...
« Last Edit: July 15, 2020, 10:44:06 am by azidahaka »

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #45 on: July 14, 2020, 09:35:12 pm »
Oh wow, I did not know this thread existed.  Now I know.  I'm really looking forward to this.

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #46 on: July 15, 2020, 10:14:08 am »
Would it be possible to insert extra NPCs or in-game books, diaries that add all the interesting fun details you uncovered that didn't make the script?

Everything found was worked into the script. :)

EDIT: I partially misread what you wrote, and also want to clarify.  I mean extra NPCs/events are part of the script in my eyes, and a lot of that is where this extra information is going.  There is a lot that isn't super relevant to the plot that I'm not including.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2020, 09:10:57 pm by ManaRedux »

binarck

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #47 on: July 15, 2020, 11:35:15 am »
Is there a chance to ask the remake devs some of these lingering questions for more insight? Without tipping them off to what you're doing of course.

lexluthermiester

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #48 on: July 22, 2020, 09:51:04 pm »
This looks like a promising project!

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #49 on: August 24, 2020, 05:39:29 pm »
Despite the silence, work on this has been pretty heavy the entire past month. Anyway, I needed someplace to write about some SoM cut content so putting it here!



The Matango Caves Pit Trap

First off, here are a couple pictures:


The left image is the upper right corner of map 321, the right image is the upper right corner of map 320.

The yellow square (right image) is the destination of unused door 0x16A. Map 321 has door 0x16A as a tile-linked event for tile 0xBF. This tile is never actually used on map 321.

Map 321 is primarily composed of map pieces 321 and 322 (this is a coincidence that its map and piece number are 321: they don't often match up like that). Map piece 326 is the cleared stalagmites (on map 321). The map pieces in between, 323-325, appear to be unfinished variations on that pit in the left image above, possibly representing ground sliding in or out of place.

There don't appear to be any events linked to these and almost certainly it was never totally functional. Actually making it functional would be rather tricky, with probably a minimum of a map piece added to map 321's piece list, changing the tile-linked event from door 0x16A to an event (where the event itself uses door 0x16A), and choosing an event flag to track the state of the trap and to control visibility of the new map piece. Oh, and editing map pieces, which is, um, tough.

(Numbering is by somedit standards to make it easy to look up, so map numbers and map pieces are decimal, door number is hexadecimal, etc.)
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 06:41:16 pm by Queue »

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #50 on: August 24, 2020, 11:48:34 pm »
I discussed this with a few folks awhile back, but I had no idea that there was an unused door on the next level down.  FWIW, the next level up is this:



From all the things you mentioned above, it seems that there was some intricate plan that was abandoned.  Who knows...

Remind me: are those stairs coded?

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #51 on: August 25, 2020, 12:53:33 am »
Neither staircase end at each pit is functional: not only do the stairs lack trigger tiles, but there aren't doors that go to either as a destination.

There is a pair of unused doors, 0x156 and 0x157 that imply a removed staircase between maps 320 and 321, but based on those door destinations, it was bottom center on both maps and would've likely been accessible in the small interconnect cave between near the cannon travel and the Matango entrance (as opposed to how most of the caves link the backdoor of Matango to the serpent boss).

lexluthermiester

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #52 on: September 01, 2020, 01:31:54 am »
There is so much that was cut out of the game when the SNESCD was canceled that it is not at all surprising that these and many other things were left in as remnants of what once was...

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #53 on: November 18, 2020, 05:27:36 pm »
Secret of Mana: Reborn is the first release of the SAP, and should be available shortly, along with a huge commentary. 

Work already began in July on the next release, a more traditional retranslation with no additions and the original Japanese names (purists rejoice!).  I actually have very little to do with this as it's primarily in the hands of Taosenai, and I have other projects to move onto.  The script is about 15% complete, and further work has been done on software tools and planning. 

Also in the pipeline is a release with an improved font and text box (like FuSoYa's patch).  This was supposed to be a main feature of the current release, but we ran into too many obstacles, and the original font works well enough for a first try. 

Some more screens from SoM: Reborn...










« Last Edit: November 18, 2020, 09:43:34 pm by ManaRedux »

lexluthermiester

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #54 on: November 19, 2020, 02:31:37 am »
It would seem that this project is not compatible with the 9-item patch. Is there a chance of integrating it in an update? Or perhaps making a version that would be compatible?

By way of bug report: In Potos village just after you beat Mantis Ant and the knight is talking about the water palace, he refers to Luka but the word "Sage" is instead something else. Looks like a spelling error.

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #55 on: November 19, 2020, 03:06:36 am »
By way of bug report: In Potos village just after you beat Mantis Ant and the knight is talking about the water palace, he refers to Luka but the word "Sage" is instead something else. Looks like a spelling error.

It's Luka's full name.

Dzumeister

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #56 on: November 19, 2020, 03:09:38 am »
Thank you so much for including the commentary, being able to read the revisions made with the original localization is great! The new script reads more literally, though--it really reminds me of kWhazit's Chrono Trigger translation from years back. I like the longer dialogue, but some of it reads unnatural coming from some of the characters. I have to say, though, the way Shade talks is really cool, and Luka reminds me of Frog from Woolsey's Chrono Trigger script. I'm reading through the provided notes and I'll post any typos or mistakes I find here.

---
Quote from: 1684
JEMA:The hour is at
hand! The time has
come for you to soar to
the Mana Fortress.
Every foe you have
encountered, every
ordeal you have endured
has prepared you for
this moment. Who
knows what you will
face, but you must never
waiver, brave knight of
the Mana Sword!
waiver should be waver

Quote from: 1596
RANDI:Mom...I...my
mom, .........
unnecessary comma

Quote from: 1618
DYLUCK:Uhh...ooh...where am I...? , ...
unnecessary comma

Quote from: 1593
...but we finally met!
After everything, we
were finally able to
meet, but, Answer me,
please! ...
Answer doesn't need to be capitalized here

Quote from: 1585
Women of our clan,
having borne future
generations, have it as
their fate to become the
Mana Tree like me, and
continue to watch over
the world...
I think birthed is the more correct term over borne, as borne is more commonly used to describe carrying instead (source,source)

Quote from: 1548
RANDI:Wow! There's
a shield around it! Let's
get out of here for now!
I think barrier would make more sense here than shield

Quote from: 1512
RANDIX:Woah! We're
deep in the Mana
Fortress...And...
Geshtar! You survived!?
Not sure if this typo is in the game or not, but RANDI is misspelled

Quote from: 1503
RANDI:We? There's
someone else?
We should be in quotes here, like in the Woolsey script:
Quote
RANDI:"We?" Who
else is here?

Quote from: 1484
We've appropriated a
secret code from the
enemy. “Red-Blue-Yellow-Green.” ...what
could it mean?
This one's just my opinion, but even if Woolsey's script makes the same reference, I think "ABXY" should be used here, particularly since American players have the purple/lavender buttons as opposed to the Super Famicom colors.

Quote from: 1475
FANHA:I see you've
come. Well, this time,
you will suffocate...like
this...!
It seems that your notes contradict yourself here. You say that "there is no direct history between [Randi and Fahna]", but the dialogue seems to imply that they really have met before. The original J you included seems to work better:
Quote from: FANHA
“Allow me the honor
of choking the life out of
you. Prepare for your
end…”

« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 03:56:37 am by Dzumeister »
free sluffy

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #57 on: November 19, 2020, 03:18:48 am »
Quote from: lexluthermiester
It would seem that this project is not compatible with the 9-item patch. Is there a chance of integrating it in an update? Or perhaps making a version that would be compatible?
While I didn't literally try applying the 9-item limit patch, I double-checked its changes versus what Reborn changes and there should be no conflict. What went wrong?

lexluthermiester

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #58 on: November 19, 2020, 04:33:11 am »
While I didn't literally try applying the 9-item limit patch, I double-checked its changes versus what Reborn changes and there should be no conflict. What went wrong?
I do beg your pardon, it does work! I had just lost track of how many items I had collected. Sorry about that!

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana: Script Augmentation Project
« Reply #59 on: November 19, 2020, 07:12:17 am »
Dzumeister, thank you for letting me know about mistakes so quickly!  There is already a hotfix in the works; I was playing through and noticed an error on another line (from the Resistance base---"us, the Resistance" should be "our Resistance") and some other minor things, and now you've brought more stuff to my attention. 

I will let you know that the commentary was an extremely tedious process, and it's a miracle there's not many times the number of errors that are still there.  Most of the mistakes you've pointed out are transcription errors between how the line is in the patch memory and how it made it into the word processor.

Quote
waiver should be waver

This is wrong in game and in the commentary.

The unnecessary commas and capitals are a commentary only issue. 

Quote
Not sure if this typo is in the game or not, but RANDI is misspelled

This is commentary only.  In the patch, Randi's name is always RANDIX to account for the extra byte.

Quote
We should be in quotes here, like in the Woolsey script:

You're right.  Especially since we did it that way on another line.

Quote
It seems that your notes contradict yourself here. You say that "there is no direct history between [Randi and Fahna]", but the dialogue seems to imply that they really have met before.

The note is on the sentiment of her dialogue overall, despite the two not having any direct confrontations prior.  That line might be part of it---"this time" may refer to lost content, or it could just refer to the general confrontations between Randi and the bodyguards.