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Author Topic: Best versions of English Translations - Help Request  (Read 4249 times)

tjstogy

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Best versions of English Translations - Help Request
« on: April 17, 2020, 02:22:56 am »
Hi all,

tjstogy from the Smokemonster Game Series Collections here.

I was hoping someone could assist in a bit of an undertaking--

Per one the "rules" I try to abide be, I like to have only one version of any game in a folder. One of the toughest choices I have to deal with is choosing a single English translation of a Japanese game, especially when at times there are dozens of translations for the same game. I don't speak Japanese, so it's impossible for me to make any good calls as I have no idea what is accurate, or what is considered "preferred" by the community.

I suppose I'm looking for a "guru" who could advise me (us) on which translation of a game is considered to a "gold standard" translation in the community.

This would be more of a help-as-you-go kind of a thing, rather than a single thread reply. If anyone could recommend someone, or if you're that someone, please let me know. Thanks!

Gideon Zhi

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Re: Best versions of English Translations - Help Request
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2020, 12:11:03 pm »
I'd actually be interested in knowing which games you're looking at that have multiple translations for them? I only know of a handful (Dragon Quest 5, Mystic Ark, Bahamut Lagoon, Tales of Phantasia PS1) of games that have multiple *finished* patches.

Jorpho

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Re: Best versions of English Translations - Help Request
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2020, 12:48:10 pm »
I have no idea what is accurate, or what is considered "preferred" by the community.
In many cases the main reason multiple translations exist is precisely because people have different preferences and found the existing patches to be unsatisfactory.  For instance, would you prefer a translation that is as literal as possible, or would you prefer something that better reflects the intent of the original text even if it isn't strictly accurate?  Can you tolerate someone saying "This is ..." instead of "What's this?" even though no English speaker would ever be likely to say "This is ..."?

This debate has raged for centuries.
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cccmar

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Re: Best versions of English Translations - Help Request
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2020, 12:55:33 pm »
There aren't "that" many cases in which there's a huge difference between the patches. Normally you'll witness a divide between a more literal, accurate translation and a much more liberal one (I know that's the case for Mystic Ark at least). The only case that I know of where the newer patch is vastly superior to the old one is Villgust NES (the old one was seemingly mostly made-up and never edited). Would help if you could drop some names, then we could tell you which patches are considered better on average. :)
« Last Edit: April 17, 2020, 01:02:10 pm by cccmar »

tjstogy

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Re: Best versions of English Translations - Help Request
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2020, 02:22:48 pm »
Here are some from A-K which I need to choose one of each from. Keep in mind, the translations folder has been getting a little out of hand with all of the incremental updates over the years, so I have no idea what is what. It's very possible that many of these are actually identical.


Armadillo (J) [T+Eng_vice].nes
Armadillo [T+Eng1.01_Vice Translations].nes

Banana Prince (G) [T+Eng1.1a_KingMike].nes
Banana Prince (G) T+Eng v1 DANGER X.nes
Banana Prince [T+Eng1.1a_KingMike].nes

Bio Senshi Dan - Increaser Tono Tatakai (J) [hM66][T+Eng1.5_Abstract_Crouton_Productions].nes
Bio Senshi Dan - Increaser Tono Tatakai (J) [T+Eng_Abstract_Crouton][o1].nes
Bio Senshi Dan - Increaser Tono Tatakai [T+Eng_AbstractCrouton].nes

Chaos World (J) [T-Eng.6a_AGTP].nes
Chaos World (J) [T-Eng.98f(A)_AGTP].nes
Chaos World (J) [T+Eng.98f(B)_AGTP].nes

Cosmic Wars (J) [T+Eng.993_TransBRC].nes
Cosmic Wars [T+Eng_TransBRC].nes

Deep Dungeon III - Yuushi e no Tabi (J) T+Eng v1.1 MrRichard999.nes
Deep Dungeon III - Yuushi heno Tabi (J) [T+Eng_SSX].nes

Digital Devil Story - Megami Tensei (J) T+Eng v1 Stardust Crusaders.nes
Digital Devil Story - Megami Tensei (Japan) [En by EsperKnight & Stardust Crusaders v0.99].nes

Dragon Ball Z - Kyoushuu! Saiya Jin (J) [T-Eng].nes
Dragon Ball Z - Kyoushuu! Saiya Jin (J) [T+Eng1.1].nes

Dragon Ball Z II - Gekishin Freeza!! (J) [T+Eng0.70_Saiya].nes
Dragon Ball Z II - Gekishin Freeza!! [T+Eng_Saiya].nes

Egger Land (Japan)[t-Eng].fds
Eggerland - Meikyuu no Fukkatsu [T+Eng_Kapow].nes

Famicom Wars (J Rev 0B) T+Eng Aka v1.11.nes
Famicom Wars (J) [T+Eng.75a_SkullCastle].nes
Famicom Wars (J) [T+Eng0.99_akadewboy].nes

Fighting Road (J) T+Eng v1 Immutable.nes
Fighting Road (J) T+Eng.nes

Final Fantasy I & II (J) [T+Eng1.00_Demiforce].nes
Final Fantasy I & II (J) T+Eng v1.1 Demiforce, Grond.nes
Final Fantasy I & II [T+Eng_Demiforce+Grond].nes

Final Fantasy II (J) [hM02][T+Eng_Toma&AlanMidas].nes
Final Fantasy II (J) [T+Eng1.03_Demiforce].nes
Final Fantasy II (J) T+Eng v1.6 Chaos Rush.nes
Final Fantasy II (Original Title) [T+Eng_Demiforce].nes
Final Fantasy II (with Title Fix) [T+Eng_Demiforce].nes

Final Fantasy III (J) [T-Eng][aa].nes
Final Fantasy III (J) [T+Eng3.1_AkIlLa].nes
Final Fantasy III (J) T+Eng v1.1 A.W.Jackson+Neill Corlett+SoM2Freak.nes

Fire Emblem (J) [T+Eng.10_Gaijin].nes
Fire Emblem [T+Eng_Quirino].nes

Fire Emblem Gaiden (J) [T+Eng97b2-Repair110206_J2e+Starwolf].nes
Fire Emblem Gaiden [T+Eng_Artemis251].nes

Foton - The Ultimate Game on Planet Earth (J) [f1][T+Eng1.00_KingMike].nes
Foton - The Ultimate Game on Planet Earth [T+Eng_KingMike].nes

Fushigi no Umi no Nadia (J) [T-Eng_J2e].nes
Fushigi no Umi no Nadia (J) [T+Eng1.3_J2e].nes

Ganbare Goemon! - Karakuri Douchuu (J) [hFFE][T-Eng].nes
Ganbare Goemon! - Karakuri Douchuu (J) [T+Eng1.02_Dragoon-X].nes
Ganbare Goemon! - Karakuri Douchuu [T+Eng_Spinner 8].nes

Getsu Fuuma Den - Title Screen (J) T+Eng v1 RPGe.nes
Getsu Fuuma Den (J) T+Eng v1 Nebulous Translations.nes

Hello Kitty no Ohanabatake (J) [T+Eng1.0_Suicidal].nes
Hello Kitty World (J) [T+Eng_Chaos Vegetable].nes
Hello Kitty World (J) [T+Eng1.00_Suicidal].nes
Hello Kitty World [T+Eng_Flake].nes

Herakles no Eikou 2 - Titan no Metsubou (J) [T-Eng_SpoonyBard].nes
Herakles no Eikou 2 - Titan no Metsubou (J) [T+Eng1.31_Toma].nes

Hirake! Ponkikki (J) [T-Eng_Gil Galad].nes
Hirake! Ponkikki (J) [T+Eng1.01_Gil Galad].nes
Hirake! Ponkikki [T+Eng_Unknown].nes

Hyaku no Sekai no Monogatari - The Tales on a Watery Wilderness (J) [T-Eng_AlanMidas].nes
Hyaku no Sekai no Monogatari - The Tales on a Watery Wilderness (J) [T+Eng4-16-99_AlanMidas].nes
Hyaku no Sekai no Monogatari - The Tales on a Watery Wilderness [T+Eng_AlanMidas].nes

Ike Ike! Nekketsu Hockey Bu - Subette Koronde Dai Rantou (J) [T+Eng.99_Disconnected].nes
Ike Ike! Nekketsu Hockey Bu - Subette Koronde Dai Rantou (J) [T+Eng1.1_TransBRC].nes

Jajamaru Gekimaden - Maboroshi no Kinmajou (J) [T+Eng0.1_Ethereal_Productions].nes
Jajamaru Gekimaden - Maboroshi no Kinmajou [T+Eng_aishsha].nes

Kaijuu Monogatari (J) [T-Eng_KingMike].nes
Kaijuu Monogatari (J) [T+Eng1.0b_KingMike].nes
Kaijuu Monogatari [T+Eng_KingMike].nes

Kaiketsu Yanchamaru 2 - Karakuri Land (J) [hFFE][T-Eng].nes
Kaiketsu Yanchamaru 2 - Karakuri Land (J) [T+Eng1.01_Shadow].nes
Kaiketsu Yanchamaru 2 - Karakuri Land[T+Eng_D].nes

Kanshakudama Nage Kantarou no Toukaidou Gojuusan Tsugi (J) [T+Eng_KingMike].nes
Kanshakudama Nage Kantarou no Toukaidou Gojuusan Tsugi (J) [T+Eng1.0CezanneFont_KingMike].nes

Kunio Kun no Nekketsu Soccer League (J) [T+Eng0.25_ICE].nes
Kunio Kun no Nekketsu Soccer League (J) [T+Eng1.2_PentarouZero].nes

Kyatto Ninden Teyandee (J) [T+Eng.10_Vertigo].nes
Kyatto Ninden Teyandee (J) [T+Eng4.5_Shadow].nes


Jorpho

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Re: Best versions of English Translations - Help Request
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2020, 10:32:22 pm »
It looks like in many cases you have an older version and a newer version of the translation, in which case the newer version (i.e. with the higher version number) is the obvious choice.

so I have no idea what is what.
In that case, do you think someone here would know better..?

Quote
It's very possible that many of these are actually identical.
You can verify that easily enough with a checksum program.  If you don't have one of those handy, some Zip programs will let you display the CRC32 of every file in a zip; files with identical CRC32 values are identical.

Quote
Egger Land (Japan)[t-Eng].fds
Eggerland - Meikyuu no Fukkatsu [T+Eng_Kapow].nes
These two are obviously completely different games.
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goldenband

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Re: Best versions of English Translations - Help Request
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2020, 01:04:49 am »
Jajamaru Gekimaden - Maboroshi no Kinmajou (J) [T+Eng0.1_Ethereal_Productions].nes
Jajamaru Gekimaden - Maboroshi no Kinmajou [T+Eng_aishsha].nes
You do know that we have a review section for translation patches, right? To wit:

https://www.romhacking.net/reviews/3245/#review
https://www.romhacking.net/reviews/3079/#review

As I say in my review, the Ethereal Productions patch is a non-patch -- it translates just about nothing in the game, and offers nothing of value.

The reviews are admittedly underpopulated, but the ones that are there will usually guide you.

The one game I've played with two different, substantial high-quality patches is Musashi no Bouken. In that instance, the newer patch is clearly done with more technical sophistication and, I assume, a more accurate translation (though the bit about the constipated mermaid had me wondering...).

Pennywise

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Re: Best versions of English Translations - Help Request
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2020, 12:45:40 pm »
You do know that we have a review section for translation patches, right? To wit:

https://www.romhacking.net/reviews/3245/#review
https://www.romhacking.net/reviews/3079/#review

As I say in my review, the Ethereal Productions patch is a non-patch -- it translates just about nothing in the game, and offers nothing of value.

The reviews are admittedly underpopulated, but the ones that are there will usually guide you.

The one game I've played with two different, substantial high-quality patches is Musashi no Bouken. In that instance, the newer patch is clearly done with more technical sophistication and, I assume, a more accurate translation (though the bit about the constipated mermaid had me wondering...).

I typically don't add in text that wasn't there originally. Occasionally I might sneak in a joke or reference if it fits the context/situation etc, but IIRC Musashi was a fairly faithful translation.

tjstogy

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Re: Best versions of English Translations - Help Request
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2020, 01:18:21 pm »
I was just posting the A-K to give examples of the headaches I go through... lol.

Like I said in my original post, was hoping to find someone who would be interested in assisting us in this undertaking as a translation guru- someone who could verify what we have is up to date, help clear duplicates, recommend which rom to use as preferred in the cases of multiple translations.


tjstogy

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Re: Best versions of English Translations - Help Request
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2020, 01:22:08 pm »
It looks like in many cases you have an older version and a newer version of the translation, in which case the newer version (i.e. with the higher version number) is the obvious choice.
In that case, do you think someone here would know better..?
You can verify that easily enough with a checksum program.  If you don't have one of those handy, some Zip programs will let you display the CRC32 of every file in a zip; files with identical CRC32 values are identical.
These two are obviously completely different games.

I think you misunderstood my goal. I'm trying to find someone who actually enjoys dealing with this stuff to help us out for the long term. I posted the A-K list simply as an example of what I'm dealing with. Do I think someone here would know better? IDK, but I figure it's worth asking. Thanks

goldenband

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Re: Best versions of English Translations - Help Request
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2020, 01:29:28 pm »
I typically don't add in text that wasn't there originally. Occasionally I might sneak in a joke or reference if it fits the context/situation etc, but IIRC Musashi was a fairly faithful translation.

I've been meaning to check out the original Japanese on that one! It was mainly the line about the mermaid princess taking a dump that threw me, but then again I seem to remember it was a bit of an Easter egg that came up if you talked to her a second time after getting a key quest item from her.

Gideon Zhi

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Re: Best versions of English Translations - Help Request
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2020, 12:04:30 pm »
I think you misunderstood my goal. I'm trying to find someone who actually enjoys dealing with this stuff to help us out for the long term. I posted the A-K list simply as an example of what I'm dealing with. Do I think someone here would know better? IDK, but I figure it's worth asking. Thanks

Generally speaking, if there's a [T-Eng] and a [T-Eng v1.01] you probably want to go with the 1.01. [T-Eng] is usually the original release. In the event that there are multiple versions of a patch by the same group, always go with the higher version number. They tend to be bugfixes and/or improvements.

Pennywise

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Re: Best versions of English Translations - Help Request
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2020, 01:22:41 pm »
It's pretty simple sorting out translations. All you is sort the translations by "Fully Playable" to give you a list of translations more or less complete. Sometimes a game has been translated multiple times, but usually one translation was done around 20 years ago, while the other was done more recently. Generally speaking, the more recent translation is usually much better.

VicVergil

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Re: Best versions of English Translations - Help Request
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2020, 02:11:33 pm »
It's pretty simple sorting out translations. All you is sort the translations by "Fully Playable" to give you a list of translations more or less complete. Sometimes a game has been translated multiple times, but usually one translation was done around 20 years ago, while the other was done more recently. Generally speaking, the more recent translation is usually much better.

That doesn't count for so-called re-localizations, where the priority isn't even translating the text, but offering a rewrite.

This topic is somewhat of a fool's errand. It's considered rude to attack translations or translation choices or authors, much less compare them unless one is outright a machine translation, so there's no discussion to be had about this subject.

julayla

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Re: Best versions of English Translations - Help Request
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2020, 02:40:59 pm »
That's kind of how I felt on some of the translations too.

Pennywise

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Re: Best versions of English Translations - Help Request
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2020, 03:20:26 pm »
That doesn't count for so-called re-localizations, where the priority isn't even translating the text, but offering a rewrite.

This topic is somewhat of a fool's errand. It's considered rude to attack translations or translation choices or authors, much less compare them unless one is outright a machine translation, so there's no discussion to be had about this subject.

Maybe you consider it rude, but the fact of the matter is that a lot early translations are not very good. A lack of skills, knowledge, tools etc. If someone has retranslated an older fan translation, it is by all accounts a better translation on all fronts. It's hard to argue otherwise.

VicVergil

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Re: Best versions of English Translations - Help Request
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2020, 02:18:10 am »
Maybe you consider it rude, but the fact of the matter is that a lot early translations are not very good. A lack of skills, knowledge, tools etc.

I agree. A lot of the older translation patches are of very dubious quality, that much is the objective truth when you see made up text, truncated text, placeholder text, major game breaking glitches... But they're by older, defunct groups, and a safe target for criticism. Active translators, on the other hand? Not everyone takes criticism very well.
Besides, there were topics here before that criticized romhacks for various reasons (intro screens, translation practices, ...) that ended up locked very shortly. This is more of the same.

If someone has retranslated an older fan translation, it is by all accounts a better translation on all fronts. It's hard to argue otherwise.
I disagree on that blanket assumption, even more in recent years. Example from 2012, in the words of the hack author:

Quote
There are two patches in this archive. One is a straight translation of the game (Kyattou Ninden Teyandee v1.00.xdelta) - most of the original puns and all the original names are left intact. The other (Samurai Pizza Cats v1.00.xdelta) is much closer to the spirit of the US adaptation of the TV show. And by that, I mean that I made up most of the script, added a bunch of unrelated jokes, and made a lot of changes to the enemy names. If this really bothers you, then play the other patch. This second one was made by a fan of the show, FOR the fans of the show. So “accurate translation” be damned, I went all Victor Ireland on this and don’t regret it.

The same game has 4 translation patches, some of it don't offer the rewrite as an option but as the main dish without much disclosure. Then as years went by, this "writing style" (as I consider "translation" doesn't describe it any longer) was presented for games other than the Famicom Samurai Pizza Cats with inconsequential writing, and that was not very optional.
Most people won't call a "mostly made up script" a "translation", or at least a "good" translation, for much of the same reason why we consider those older patches "bad". Those only change the text. If the text didn't matter, why are they considered bad in the first place? Why are we seeking translations to begin with?

Those are "active" authors though. The process is different. You can't do call-out threads for their work (unless I missed something?) and you have to take your grievances to a review you submit for review under their romhack. If you want to fix their work you have to seek their approval and release an addendum patch and get it approved.
Considering past situations, I just don't see how it will turn out differently in this thread.

tjstogy

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Re: Best versions of English Translations - Help Request
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2020, 04:02:13 pm »
That doesn't count for so-called re-localizations, where the priority isn't even translating the text, but offering a rewrite.

This topic is somewhat of a fool's errand. It's considered rude to attack translations or translation choices or authors, much less compare them unless one is outright a machine translation, so there's no discussion to be had about this subject.

A fool's errand? Considered rude? It's ironic that you're so concerned that a translation author might be offended, yet you're not concerned with offending me. I've contributed more to the retro gaming community than you can shake a stick at, and for free. As someone who's also simply trying to enhance the end users experience, albeit in a different fashion, I really think you should shut your mouth. Oh wait, is that "considered rude"?

stratoform

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Re: Best versions of English Translations - Help Request
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2020, 09:29:15 pm »
Maybe some type of github list or something could be started? I like the idea of your goal but I haven't tried many translations of same games to actually discuss anything useful yet.

Heaven Piercing Man

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Re: Best versions of English Translations - Help Request
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2020, 06:24:51 pm »
This effort is necessary. If only to finally defeat the persistence of bad Final Fantasy fan translations in the mainstream fandom. It's goddamn 20 freaking 20 and I still see new videos using J2E footage.