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Author Topic: Trials of Mana / SD3 bugfix patch question  (Read 1476 times)

Chicken Knife

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Trials of Mana / SD3 bugfix patch question
« on: July 30, 2019, 12:16:35 pm »
praetarius5018 from the insane difficulty / ngplus.net site has a vanilla bugfix hack for the Corlett version of Seiken Densetsu 3 and it isn't currently on RHDN. I think it really improves the gameplay experience by allowing the stats and shields to actually function as intended. Unfortunately it doesn't work with the new Trials of Mana rom. This brings me to a couple questions:

1. In spite of having a bit of mixed feelings about the new translation, I'd like to get the bug fixes working for it. I've attempted to reach out to praetarius5018 on this but the forums he's on are locked and I can't find an email, twitter, etc. However, I'm thinking that if I were to figure out exactly how the patch alters the original rom, I could potentially realign the bug fixes to the Trials of Mana rom. Would anyone recommend any editors that would allow me to see exactly what data is changed by a patch? I've heard of people using these kinds of tools when determining patch compatibility. 

2. A question about permissions. It's been my experience that anyone can publish anyone else's hacks that are not currently on this site as long as proper credit is given. However, if I were to adapt those bugfixes to the ToM rom without obtaining permission, would there be any issue with publishing that as long as proper credit is given for the original work?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 12:23:44 pm by Chicken Knife »

vivify93

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Re: Trials of Mana / SD3 bugfix patch question
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2019, 12:23:13 pm »
- Praetarius is on RHDN. https://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=73930
- Were you looking at the Insane Difficulty forums? Those were locked and upgraded to the NGplus forums. http://ngplus.net/index.php?/forums/topic/62-seiken-densetsu-3-sin-of-mana-discussion/
- I don't know how receptive Praetarius would be toward helping you, since he has said verbatim:

Quote
you tried the fix only patch? wherever I left that one..

either way I won't try to make that compatible, not worth it, got better stuff to do

Not to speak for him, but from what I've gathered, he hates the idea of Fix-only in the first place, and would rather have people play Sin of Mana. And he has said he doesn't want to bother porting Sin of Mana to Trials' official ROM.

The better solution might just be to port Trials of Mana's text and title logos to the Seiken Densetsu 3 fan translation. Though then you have the issues of needing to slim the dialogue font and expand character names to 8 letters...
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Chicken Knife

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Re: Trials of Mana / SD3 bugfix patch question
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2019, 12:32:21 pm »
The better solution might just be to port Trials of Mana's text and title logos to the Seiken Densetsu 3 fan translation. Though then you have the issues of needing to slim the dialogue font and expand character names to 8 letters...
That sounds more like a massive project than a better solution.

I'll probably just leave this alone then. Regardless of how rules apply, I wouldn't want to go against his express wishes in publishing either the original or a modified version of the bugfix patch. It's a shame he doesn't see the value in people having access to the original game with the bugs corrected, but what can you do?

Bugfixes like these usually just adjust a few bytes here or there so I may try to achieve that for my own use if I can figure out exactly what the patch alters, but that's neither here nor there.

The only thing I really dislike about the Corlett version is the opening crawl and its very confusing grammatical structure. The NPC dialogue and the class names and whatnot are fine--often superior to the new version. I may just work on an addendum to correct the opening narrative text at some point.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 12:41:20 pm by Chicken Knife »

vivify93

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Re: Trials of Mana / SD3 bugfix patch question
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2019, 01:54:38 pm »
That sounds more like a massive project than a better solution.
I guess I more meant "the only choice if you want Trials of Mana + bug fixes without reverse-engineering Praetarius' fix-only patch to work with the official ToM."

I'll probably just leave this alone then. Regardless of how rules apply, I wouldn't want to go against his express wishes in publishing either the original or a modified version of the bugfix patch. It's a shame he doesn't see the value in people having access to the original game with the bugs corrected, but what can you do?
It is unfortunate, I agree. I hate difficulty mods of any sort, because they often make the game much too hard for a casual player like myself to enjoy. (I know Sin of Mana has easy mode patches, but I doubt I even have the skill for those.) But you can't really sway someone's opinion when they're so firmly set in their beliefs. I think Praetarius only made Fix-only because he was harassed nonstop about it.
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Chicken Knife

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Re: Trials of Mana / SD3 bugfix patch question
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2019, 02:17:39 pm »
I guess I more meant "the only choice if you want Trials of Mana + bug fixes without reverse-engineering Praetarius' fix-only patch to work with the official ToM."
It is unfortunate, I agree. I hate difficulty mods of any sort, because they often make the game much too hard for a casual player like myself to enjoy. (I know Sin of Mana has easy mode patches, but I doubt I even have the skill for those.) But you can't really sway someone's opinion when they're so firmly set in their beliefs. I think Praetarius only made Fix-only because he was harassed nonstop about it.
I've read people on forums state that the vanilla bugfix breaks the game by enabling crit and evade rates. But after a couple consecutive playthroughs, I can't profess strongly enough that this is not the case. For a player like me, the game really hits that perfect sweet spot as far as challenge.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 02:22:57 pm by Chicken Knife »

vivify93

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Re: Trials of Mana / SD3 bugfix patch question
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2019, 02:33:45 am »
I'd like to see bug fixes implemented in official ToM for sure. Could be worth contacting him, but like I said, it seems unlikely he'd even give a reply.
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Chicken Knife

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Re: Trials of Mana / SD3 bugfix patch question
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2019, 06:33:12 am »
I'd like to see bug fixes implemented in official ToM for sure. Could be worth contacting him, but like I said, it seems unlikely he'd even give a reply.
I'm just surprised it seems so difficult to log the code changes that an IPS patch makes. I figured there had to be a utility for that and that it would be somewhat popular.

Cyneprepou4uk

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Chicken Knife

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Re: Trials of Mana / SD3 bugfix patch question
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2019, 09:09:12 am »
https://www.romhacking.net/utilities/1038
This is a great tool! Thanks for the recommendation.

By using this, I determined that a heck of a lot more code was changed by the bugfix patch than a few bytes here or there. 107 addresses in the rom were affected. Manually inspecting each location to ensure it is a match quickly became exhausting. I may commit more time to this one day. We'll see.

I also had what I thought was a bright idea by making a patch based on the differences between the Trials of Mana Collection rom and the Japanese rom. First I applied the bugfix to the straight Japanese rom, tested it and verified it was working, then I tried to put the official Trials of Mana patch on top of that. I thought this might work based on the fact that the first 15 or so addresses I cross referenced were a perfect match. The game boots after both patches are applied, you can watch the intro and name characters, but then it resets to the title screen when you attempt to start a game. I'm curious what's causing this.

svenge

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Re: Trials of Mana / SD3 bugfix patch question
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2019, 01:56:22 am »
I also had what I thought was a bright idea by making a patch based on the differences between the Trials of Mana Collection rom and the Japanese rom. First I applied the bugfix to the straight Japanese rom, tested it and verified it was working, then I tried to put the official Trials of Mana patch on top of that. I thought this might work based on the fact that the first 15 or so addresses I cross referenced were a perfect match. The game boots after both patches are applied, you can watch the intro and name characters, but then it resets to the title screen when you attempt to start a game. I'm curious what's causing this.

The original Super Famicom version is a HiROM game while the English "Trials of Mana" is ExHiROM, so that probably has something to do with it.

pleasejust

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Re: Trials of Mana / SD3 bugfix patch question
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2019, 04:52:47 am »
How does Sin of Mana normal difficulty compare to Trials of Mana/SD2?

Chronosplit

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Re: Trials of Mana / SD3 bugfix patch question
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2019, 09:57:06 am »
I would suggest making individual bugfix patches if possible.  Not like separate database entries like FFVI or anything like that, but the thing is that evade and crit in particular tend to change the game a lot more than you'd think.  That's one of the reasons why he said the bugfix patch was only being supported for so short; it creates whole other balance issues which Sin of Mana addressed, like OHKOs being everywhere due to enemy crits.

How does Sin of Mana normal difficulty compare to Trials of Mana/SD2?
IIRC the difficulty below normal compares to the original.  Either that or normal itself, I forget Praetarius's talk about that.

Chicken Knife

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Re: Trials of Mana / SD3 bugfix patch question
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2019, 10:36:22 am »
I would suggest making individual bugfix patches if possible.  Not like separate database entries like FFVI or anything like that, but the thing is that evade and crit in particular tend to change the game a lot more than you'd think.  That's one of the reasons why he said the bugfix patch was only being supported for so short; it creates whole other balance issues which Sin of Mana addressed, like OHKOs being everywhere due to enemy crits.
Is it your own experience that those changes hurt the game? I did a complete playthrough of the collection version without bugfixes prior to me being on my 3rd consecutive play of the Corlett version with bugfixes. The original play felt off to me with the damage from attacks always being the same (or to be precise a range of 1 more or 1 less than the standard damage). The variability of adding character and enemy crits created more excitement and never resulted in an excess of character deaths. Honestly, the only thing that has resulted in a lot of character deaths for me is in the last third of the game when enemies start using level 3 techs on your whole party. Crits don't enter into the damage for those at all. Just to mention the fix to evade / accuracy, the impact seemed relatively minor.

As far as me doing fixes separately, I don't have the will or skill to reinvent the wheel here. With those 107 addresses altered by the bugfix patch, I would have no idea which bytes applied to which bugs. I'll be lucky if I can port over the fixes altogether.

I did notice what appears to be a bug that the patch doesn't address. When you go through the God Beast areas, the game has this brilliant mechanic of increasing the enemy levels by 2 or 3 in all the other areas every time you fell a God Beast. However, in Gemstone Valley, about half the enemies don't seem to get this boost and I think they were stuck at 28. The inconsistency here doesn't seem intentional to me.

Quote
The original Super Famicom version is a HiROM game while the English "Trials of Mana" is ExHiROM, so that probably has something to do with it.
I have to read more into the differences between HiROM and ExHiROM. But wouldn't the designations for that be in the rom data itself and ultimately convert based on patching the changes between the Japanese rom and the collection rom.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2019, 11:10:26 am by Chicken Knife »

John Enigma

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Re: Trials of Mana / SD3 bugfix patch question
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2019, 11:44:56 pm »
Huh.

So hacking this game is impossible after all.