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Author Topic: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated  (Read 25831 times)

hairy_hen

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I'm glad the Magitek menu bug was able to be corrected so quickly.

That weird-looking formatting in the scene with Locke and Edgar is in the original release of the game, too, although the spacing was a bit different since the font here has been horizontally condensed somewhat.  I actually went through all of the battle text and reformatted most of the lines so that they use the available space more efficiently, which also looks quite a bit nicer.  For some reason I had neglected to fix that one, but it is corrected now.

FF6's battle text is strange because unlike the main story dialog, it lacks a wrapping function, so the only way to prevent it from going off the edge of the screen is to manually enter line breaks in every place they're needed.  This can be problematic in lines that contain characters' names, which can be of variable length, so you have to be a bit overly cautious in deciding where to move to the next line.  And FF3usME's preview window isn't quite accurate: it tends to let you think you have a bit more space than is actually there, so I've had to go back and reformat the text (sometimes rewording to condense the length) several times.  I'm pretty certain I've accounted for the formatting of every line now; still, if any more oddities do get spotted, I'll go back and fix them as well.

I'll be submitting version 1.0 to the database as soon as these last tiny fixes are incorporated!

Dzumeister

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And... it's done!  http://www.mediafire.com/file/q4kq42z4b4ncsz7/FF6_hh_script_v0.99.zip/file

I have not yet submitted the project to the database, because I want to write up some more accompanying documentation.  It is also still in need of a title; I have one in mind, but want to make sure before going ahead with it.

I'm always reticent about anyone seeing my work until it is finalized, but this has been proofread and edited so much that any further changes would probably just end up making it less good.  That said, if there are any mistakes present, let me know so I can fix them.

It's been a lot of time and work to get this done, but I think it was well worth it.  I hope you guys will enjoy playing this version as much as I've enjoyed making it.  And once again, thanks to everyone whose awesome work and skill made this possible!

I'm pretty excited about trying this out! Love the work by Rodimus Primal, but some of the choices for leaving some of the grammar errors Ted Woolsey had left me wanting something a bit more akin to the GBA translation, which is still my favorite. I actually haven't found a patch that imports the script like you were talking about.

Is there a full script of yours that you've documented available?
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Donkeyjack

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Can you do one for FFIV and FFV?

Heaven Piercing Man

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It's not necessary to do that.

FF4 has Namingway edition which is in the same vein as this one, maybe not strictly based on Tomato's analysis but still accurate.

FF5 has a GBA script port which is perfectly acceptable and pretty much on the same level, and there's no detailed analysis we can use if we want a better translation, Tomato hasn't done it and Kwhazit hasn't finished it.

And the NES trilogy has FF1 Restored and Chaos Rush's FF2/FF3 hacks.


GhaleonUnlimited

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Nice work!

I'll check your version out next time I fire up FFVI. I also haven't found any script version so far that I really love, including the original, so I think your project idea definitely had merit.

Donkeyjack

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For some reason the patch doesn't work for applying on the Japanese version.

svenge

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For some reason the patch doesn't work for applying on the Japanese version.

The included readme.txt clearly states: "To play this version, apply the patch to a clean, un-headered rom of Final Fantasy III (USA) v1.0".

hairy_hen

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Version 1.0 has been submitted to the database!  It incorporates additional script improvements as well as the Magitek menu bug fix.  I'm very excited to be officially releasing it at last.

In addition to an extended readme file, the download will also include notes on the grammar of Early Modern English, in order to ensure comprehension of Cyan's speech.  He has been written to be easily understandable, but this will provide additional information for those who are curious, as well as helping to avoid confusion for those less familiar with the nuances of this writing style.

I haven't had much time to make progress with the annotated script, so the comments still only extend about halfway through, but I'm going to make it available for reading anyway.  Being able to read the dialog line by line with relevant comments will help make the meaning of the story clear.  It does not go into many details about Japanese grammar, since I hardly know anything about it myself, but instead focuses on the story and character issues that were obscured in previous translations.  Further annotations will be made as time allows.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 04:09:13 pm by hairy_hen »

Heaven Piercing Man

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You mind if I do some commentary on your choices? I'm definitely NOT a Woolsey purist so I'm open minded

BlazeHeatnix

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I should point out that this probably belongs in the "Personal Projects" forum.

Like I did for Rodimus, I want to point out a couple things I noticed with a quick skim over. However, I'm only concerned by two lines so far:

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Sabin: Well, we've made it this far... So, how do we get to Narshe from here?
Cyan: Narshe, sayest thou?  The southern forest, I deem, shall be our only road thither.
Something the original Japanese version does is that Cyan says "Through the forest to the south, but..." implying that he knows said forest is the Phantom Forest, and is haunted. It's a minor thing, but it immediately hints that the forest is especially dangerous.

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Oh, uh, sorry...   Even a very rich man can be... startled.
Mato suggested changing the term to "Gillionaire", which would have several benefits. It's specifically related to currency, it's less generic than the Japanese original, and it acts as a retroactive reference to later FF abilities called "Gillionaire".

Other than that, I'm impressed. This is looking to be the best version of FFVI's script. If I could make a suggestion, it would be to comb over this script and really think about your philosophy. For example, you question the notion that gyms or nickels exist in this world, yet have no issue with the notion that submarines exist, as implied by Kefka. You also remove extra layers of meaning that both Woolsey and Slattery add to the script in some areas (such as Sabin being "one of Vargas's bears"), which I think is a little strange considering Kefka already has extra layers to his character outside Japan. Just try and decide whether accuracy or flavor is your priority.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2019, 04:31:08 pm by BlazeHeatnix »

svenge

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I see that the Version 1.0 patch is no longer in the Submission Queue but seems to not found in the main file listing for FF6, nor the list of new translations or new hacks.

Am I missing something obvious, or did it get rejected/pulled?

Dzumeister

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Version 1.0 has been submitted to the database!  It incorporates additional script improvements as well as the Magitek menu bug fix.  I'm very excited to be officially releasing it at last.

In addition to an extended readme file, the download will also include notes on the grammar of Early Modern English, in order to ensure comprehension of Cyan's speech.  He has been written to be easily understandable, but this will provide additional information for those who are curious, as well as helping to avoid confusion for those less familiar with the nuances of this writing style.

I haven't had much time to make progress with the annotated script, so the comments still only extend about halfway through, but I'm going to make it available for reading anyway.  Being able to read the dialog line by line with relevant comments will help make the meaning of the story clear.  It does not go into many details about Japanese grammar, since I hardly know anything about it myself, but instead focuses on the story and character issues that were obscured in previous translations.  Further annotations will be made as time allows.

Link to annotated script: https://pastebin.com/yCCLwi8Z

Oooh, thank you! I'm going to be going over it and then try a patched game to see if everything works out correctly. Thanks again for all your hard work!
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hairy_hen

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Unfortunately the submission was rejected for not fitting neatly into the established categories.  I made the patch to work from the unmodified game, but apparently addendum patches are only supposed to derive from the source hack.  This is rather frustrating, because I did it this way in order to make things simpler for the end user, but it was enough for it to be thrown out.

Perhaps it's just as well, because I need to think of a new title anyway.  Something straightforward like "Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated" might work.  But then, addendums aren't supposed to be used for translations either, apparently, so that might get thrown out as well.  I could separate this from Woolsey Uncensored Edition and just make it completely independent; but that seems like a waste, because I don't really want to have to lose or try to recreate all the great work from that version, just for the sake of fitting into these rigid categories.  Hmm...

At any rate, I'm glad the script seems to be meeting with approval.  The primary goal has always been to correct mistranslations and restore missing content, so I focused more on that than on how it compares other versions.  The specific wording was never as important to me as making sure the underlying information is conveyed correctly.  I aimed to be internally logical and consistent as much as I could, although I'm not sure if I have a completely articulated philosophy for when to keep or eliminate certain elements from the SNES script, beyond seeing whether they change the meaning of what is happening in the story.  Each subsequent editing pass has moved it closer to the accuracy route, though I doubt it will go all the way there since even the original Japanese script isn't perfect, and some elements of it are just lost in translation and need to be changed somewhat in order to convey similar ideas.  I'm open to making further edits if I've overlooked anything, so feedback is certainly welcome.

I'll be resubmitting once I have the title and patching situation straightened out.

svenge

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Could you post a link to it on an external server like you did for version 0.99 in the interim?

BlazeHeatnix

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I want to comment on your approach for Cyan. I commend you for how much research you've put into olde english speak for Cyan. You put a lot of time, thought and care into crafting the accuracy of how people would talk in that dialect.

...The problem, though, is that it's difficult to read. While Cyan's "olde english" speak might be fake or inaccurate in official translations, that's kinda the point. It's meant to be cartoony and evoke a chuckle. If you look at Frog in Chrono Trigger, it's the same sort of thing. I'm almost positive the intent was the same in Japanese as well. You've altered Cyan's script in a way that's honestly pretty humorless and makes the character much more annoying. I understand it's your hack, and your style, but with lines like this:

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"Recall that thou badest me keep safe thy pouch."
What does that even mean?!

Regarding line accuracy, you've also failed to consider how natural some of this speech is. Take the infamous "dancer" scene:

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Dancer: Oh, don't be a stick in the mud. Let's just have some fun! Here, have a look at my cleavage.
Can you honestly see a hooker, in real life, saying "have a look at my cleavage"? That directly, without even any slang? The "humpty-dumpty" scene might be goofy, but it's still a much more believable thing for her to say.

The more I read over this script, the more I start to prefer the original Woolsey Uncensored hack. Maybe it's time for me to make my own alterations. But damn, how many FFVI translation projects have there been? There's Woolsey's, Slattery's, RPGONE's, Rodimus's, Dr. Meat's, and now finally this one.

Dzumeister

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I want to comment on your approach for Cyan. I commend you for how much research you've put into olde english speak for Cyan. You put a lot of time, thought and care into crafting the accuracy of how people would talk in that dialect.

...The problem, though, is that it's difficult to read. While Cyan's "olde english" speak might be fake or inaccurate in official translations, that's kinda the point. It's meant to be cartoony and evoke a chuckle. If you look at Frog in Chrono Trigger, it's the same sort of thing. I'm almost positive the intent was the same in Japanese as well. You've altered Cyan's script in a way that's honestly pretty humorless and makes the character much more annoying. I understand it's your hack, and your style, but with lines like this:
What does that even mean?!
When they relocalized Chrono Trigger for the DS, they gave Frog more elevated speech, but they didn't use olde English. Maybe a similar approach could be made for Cyan so that readers can still understand the kind of character he is.

Quote
Regarding line accuracy, you've also failed to consider how natural some of this speech is. Take the infamous "dancer" scene:
Can you honestly see a hooker, in real life, saying "have a look at my cleavage"? That directly, without even any slang? The "humpty-dumpty" scene might be goofy, but it's still a much more believable thing for her to say.

The more I read over this script, the more I start to prefer the original Woolsey Uncensored hack. Maybe it's time for me to make my own alterations. But damn, how many FFVI translation projects have there been? There's Woolsey's, Slattery's, RPGONE's, Rodimus's, Dr. Meat's, and now finally this one.
Obviously the correct thing to do now is to change her line to "HAVE A LOOK AT MY TIDDIES"
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BlazeHeatnix

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When they relocalized Chrono Trigger for the DS, they gave Frog more elevated speech, but they didn't use olde English. Maybe a similar approach could be made for Cyan so that readers can still understand the kind of character he is.
Well, there you have the opposite problem. Frog's speech patterns were removed, but it made him less memorable of a character and his lines were now a bit boring, likely why Woolsey changed him in the first place. I think for the most part, Woolsey and especially Slattery strike a balance between Cyan's olde english mannerisms, and being easy to understand and read. They don't go beyond the kind of "old English" parody character you see in cartoons.
https://youtu.be/v03aHB7Vano

Obviously the correct thing to do now is to change her line to "HAVE A LOOK AT MY TIDDIES"
You laugh, but as out-of-place as that would be, it'd still be more believable (and funny) than the current version.

vivify93

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That is pretty wooden, yeah. I think I'd personally alter the last line to something cheeky like, "Come on, take a look at my assets..."
All my life I've tried to fight what history has given me.

Heaven Piercing Man

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That is pretty wooden, yeah. I think I'd personally alter the last line to something cheeky like, "Come on, take a look at my assets..."

Hey, that's cool. It can be understood as both "boobies" and "ASSets"

hairy_hen

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It means he told him to hold on to his wallet.

To bid = to command or to direct.  Bade = past tense of bid.  Suffix "-est" is applied to second-person singular verb conjugations.

Hence, "thou badest".

Here's the thing: until I did this project, it had been been a long time since I'd read or given thought to anything written in such old-fashioned language, but that style of expression was kind of seared into my brain as a kid due to being required to read the King James every week.  I played Chrono Trigger for the first time a few months ago, and I found that I liked the idea of Frog's speech style, but my heart sank almost immediately when his very first line of dialog came out mangled due to simple grammatical errors.  Fixing that was actually going to be my first foray into this kind of thing, but then I came across Mato's FF6 comparison and got sidetracked by doing this instead.

All I really wanted to do with these games was just to play them, not hack them.  But as the comparison showed there were so many translation problems I hadn't known about, I found that I had the interest and motivation to do something about them, and a level of impartiality about the script due to having no longstanding attachment to any pre-existing version.  Recall that in the first post I mentioned that up until a few weeks ago, I had no plans to release this publicly at all: it was begun as something solely for my own benefit.  I only came around to the idea of releasing it when I saw various people online wishing there were a version with the general sort of qualities of what I had done.

Obviously the style I used for Cyan is a bit removed from normal present day speech.  Hence why I wrote a document explaining the nuances of the grammar, in the event of just this sort of confusion.  I tried to keep it as clear and understandable as I could, but I'm not the sort of person to do something halfway, and I don't believe in dumbing things down and underestimating the audience.  The actual amount of archaic vocabulary in this script is extremely low.  The only things that are "old" are the verb conjugations, personal pronouns, a couple of words or expressions that had slightly different definitions back then, and the tendency to put the syntax of a sentence in a slightly different order.  Everything else is the same.  If I'd really wanted to go full-on obscure, I would have spelled the words the way they spelled them back then, too, but then almost nobody in the world (including me) would have any idea what they were saying.

Naturally, of course, anyone is welcome to play any version they want, and it's good there are options.  My hope is that others will enjoy playing this, but I never had any illusions about being able to satisfy everyone.


For the breast thing, I felt it important to avoid being unnecessarily crude.  'Assets' might work, but we'll see.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2019, 08:54:05 pm by hairy_hen »