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Author Topic: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated  (Read 27896 times)

hairy_hen

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #120 on: July 30, 2019, 02:23:29 am »
Kefka's speech style in Japanese varies widely depending on the scene, and I think sometimes even within scenes.  He can sound anywhere from super-arrogant, to giddy little boy, to anywhere in between at the drop of a hat.  I don't know enough about the language to get into specifics very much, but the writing relies at least in part on the fact that Japanese has dozens of personal pronouns, and he frequently switches between them in ways that make him sound bizarre and disturbing.  The long and short of it is that the way he speaks does not translate directly into English very well, and a straightforward rendering would only serve to flatten out the dialog and make it much more bland.

It was very likely for this reason that Ted Woolsey chose to change the wording of many of his lines into the wacky, off-the-wall strangeness we're familiar with.  Had he not done so, Kefka's insanity wouldn't have come across as well as it should, and he would have been a less interesting villain to English-speaking audiences.  Woolsey arguably went even farther than the original script in the degree of craziness he imparted, but only rarely was the flow of the dialog actually affected by this.

So while things like "son of a submariner" aren't strictly accurate to what the Japanese dialog says, they do serve to reinsert the sense of barely-contained lunacy that Kefka is intended to give off, which otherwise would have been quite diluted in a more literal translation.  It was for this reason that I kept much of Woolsey's dialog for Kefka intact: not just because it is memorable or nostalgic, but because it is effective localization which serves the character well.  I adjusted the wording as needed to make sure the story information was conveyed correctly, but I generally used a light touch.

The only place with a really significant difference where I felt compelled to follow the Japanese more closely is during the lead-up to the final confrontation.  In the original script, Kefka (who has had over a year to revel in his victory and destroy as many things as he likes) becomes philosophical and wonders aloud why people would ever bother to rebuild things they've lost, since all life is meaningless and will never amount to anything, because time will destroy it all in the end.  In the SNES version this sense of nihilism is mostly lost and he just sounds like he wants to wreck stuff for no real reason.  It isn't the deepest philosophical discussion ever written, but nonetheless it adds an interesting layer to his character that deserved to be included.


Now, as far as character names go... any changes there would probably have to be an alternate or add-on patch, so that nobody would be alienated by having to use names they didn't like.  Typhon and Madeline are already in there, as is Kappa, and I certainly wouldn't mind having Orthros make an appearance, but I've seen people say that changing the names of the main characters makes them seem like completely different people they can't relate to, so I'm wary of trying to force that in there without having the more familiar names also available.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 03:18:39 am by hairy_hen »

Heaven Piercing Man

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #121 on: July 30, 2019, 02:33:02 am »
Genjuu have always been inconsistent in both Japan (genjuu, shoukanjuu, GF, banshin, shinjuu) and the English versions (summons, espers, GF, eidolons, aeons, primals, totema, etc) so I guess it doesn't matter in the end

Quote
Typhon and Madeline are already in there

All's right with the world.

I mean, as much as I dislike Woolsey, I'm fine with his name changes UNLESS they're cringy or take you out of of the game because they're out of place from a real world perspective. "Sucker" and a pop singer really kill the experience.

I agree with you on Kefka, his wording style has always been spot on, it's the accuracy of what he is saying what matters.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 02:41:51 am by Heaven Piercing Man »

Dzumeister

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #122 on: July 30, 2019, 04:37:03 pm »
I could do without lines like that.

I prefer Son of a sandworm! from the GBA version.
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Piotyr

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #123 on: August 01, 2019, 02:10:10 am »
Can we get this translation ported to the steam version too? The hacking community for that has done a great job of fixing the issues it has and I would love for it to get the best translation it can get too.

BuddySievers

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #124 on: August 01, 2019, 08:25:23 pm »
I have a bug with the 1.1 version.
In Zozo when i jump from the first building/right to the second/left and try to jump back or when i continue and want to jump from the second/left to the right one again the game freezes!
I tried it with Zsnes 1.51w and with bsnes_v107r1-windows and it freezes on both emulators.
Here is a link to a srm save outside of Zozo and a bsnes savestate at the rooftop right before the jump where it freezes.
https://www.mediafire.com/file/cy25c14d6w0efgl/FF3_Retranslation_Saves_Zozo_Bug.7z/file

Other then that i must say the hack is absolute awesome.
Its way better then the original but still feels like its a real SNES game in that way!

Hope for a bugfix or maybe a freezer code to get walking thru walls to continue my journey haha! :)

svenge

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #125 on: August 01, 2019, 09:13:02 pm »
I just tried out that .SRM save file (but not the save-state), and it seems that v1.0 and v1.1 do indeed have that freeze bug, but not the unofficial "v0.99".  Since hairy_hen stated that v1.0 and later were freshly assembled and is no longer just a mere modification of TWUE, that would indicate that something went wrong with v1.0's creation process.

Probably never noticed it on my end because I began my current play-through on v0.99 and didn't transition to v1.0 and v1.1 (while keeping the same save file) until after the Zozo sequence.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 09:58:45 pm by svenge »

BuddySievers

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #126 on: August 02, 2019, 12:34:31 pm »
I just tried out that .SRM save file (but not the save-state), and it seems that v1.0 and v1.1 do indeed have that freeze bug, but not the unofficial "v0.99".  Since hairy_hen stated that v1.0 and later were freshly assembled and is no longer just a mere modification of TWUE, that would indicate that something went wrong with v1.0's creation process.

Probably never noticed it on my end because I began my current play-through on v0.99 and didn't transition to v1.0 and v1.1 (while keeping the same save file) until after the Zozo sequence.

Thanks for confirming its not just on my end!

hairy_hen

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #127 on: August 02, 2019, 01:25:04 pm »
Yikes!  I'll have to test it and see which of the patches I added is causing that.  Thanks for letting me know of the problem.

August 02, 2019, 06:25:31 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Okay, I've tested it on a real Super Nintendo and I get the same freezing problem.

However, when I put together a new file using the add-on patches I used to assemble my version (bug fixes, uncensored graphics, etc), I don't have any crashes and can make it all the way up to Ramuh, so the problem isn't coming from any of them.

Aside from the updated script, the only thing not included in the test file was a patch I made myself which contains the updated names for items and so on.  It would seem that the rom I made this patch from must have somehow become corrupted, so any version I've used it on would probably have this same freezing issue.  (I'm guessing this is also how the strange 'Teath Tarot' text glitch appeared in v1.0.)

So the good news is that it doesn't seem to be a complicated issue and can be fixed straightforwardly.  The bad news is that it looks like I'll have to re-enter all the updated names over again, which is a bit tedious.  Thankfully hex editing will make it easier to do this time around.  Hopefully I can get the bug fix out before too many people are affected by it.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 06:25:31 pm by hairy_hen »

vivify93

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #128 on: August 07, 2019, 11:41:09 pm »
Are you using C. V. Reynolds' Bug-fix Compilation at all? Or anything adjacent to it? Because there are several patches in the Compilation that cause issues with FF3usME.

Miraculous, Death-Defying Always-Left-Facing Jumps in Zozo (mblock129)
  [While applied, causes hanging bug after editing game in FF3usME.]
Shadow is Not a Girl (mblock129)
  [While applied, causes hanging bug after editing game in FF3usME.]
Various Texts' (Imzogelmo)
  [Interferes with description pointers in FF3usME.]

I have all of Mblock / Zephyr's patches here, as well as an anti-patch for Zozo Jumps.

http://www.bwass.org/bucket/Zephyr129_mods.zip

http://www.bwass.org/bucket/AntiZozoJump.ips (I believe this is for a headered ROM)

I don't have an anti-patch of Various Texts' Fixes by Imzog, however. You'd have to make one yourself.

You can also reapply Zozo Jumps after editing the game in FF3usME (But not Shadow Girl or Various Texts' due to pointer/text issues) to get its effect working in your edited game, but it would break future compatibility with FF3usME for anyone who wanted to mod on top of FFVI Retranslated.

By the way... since it's not obvious, this is what Zozo Jumps does.

Normally in Zozo, whether you're jumping left or right, a character will display "Near Fatal" sprite, then stand facing the camera with both arms up, then the "Near Fatal" sprite displays again. After this, the jump animation plays out. The issue is that "Near Fatal" sprites, typically, face left. So Zozo Jumps adds an extra event to flip the "Near Fatal" sprite horizontally when the player jumps to the right. That way, it looks like the character's back isn't facing the wrong way before they jump right.

It's... pretty useless. Not to knock on Zephyr's hard work, but... I don't understand the need for this patch, since it's not a bug. It must've annoyed them pretty deeply, LOL.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 01:11:34 am by vivify93 »
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hairy_hen

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #129 on: August 08, 2019, 05:52:05 pm »
Yeah, that's the bug fix compilation I've been using.  It's very convenient to have all these fixes together in one place, without having to worry about which ones need a header and which ones don't (a nightmare from an organizational standpoint).  Unfortunately, you're right that the compilation is too ambitious in what it tries to do.  My rom files have been getting corrupted at an alarming rate while trying to figure this out, so after much frustration and gnashing of teeth, I was forced to the conclusion that something in that patch was causing FF3usME to write garbage data into the file after it had been applied.  Depending on what order I put things together, I either consistently ended up with the freeze in Zozo, or else I avoided that but got a bunch of glitched out nonsense in the text, which fits exactly with what you described.  It's a relief to finally know what specifically was causing it.

A user on ff6hacking.com came up with a workaround by extracting the portions of the compilation that deal with battle algorithms and leaving the rest out.  The portions he extracted only affect addresses from C0 to C3, and it looks like the Zozo jumping patch acts in the CA range, which means it has been eliminated and will no longer appear in this project.  I too question its necessity as a 'fix', and since I made my own text changes for both of the other things you mentioned, they don't need to be here either.

Anyway, version 1.2 is finally ready and has been submitted.  Hopefully there won't be any more issues like this!  In addition to solving the freezing problem, this update also contains a number of changes to enemy/item names and descriptions, as well as a few tweaks to the script.  It looks like the queue is pretty short at the moment, so hopefully it won't take long for this one to go through.

August 08, 2019, 07:01:37 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
And it's up!  That was fast...

This new version is in .bps format, so be sure to use an appropriate utility.  MultiPatch is great for OS X folks, and Floating IPS works well on Windows.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 07:01:37 pm by hairy_hen »

vivify93

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #130 on: August 08, 2019, 09:10:39 pm »
Yeah, I found out about those 3 patches causing errors when I tried to work on my own personal project. (Which won't be seeing release, since A. There are like 10 FFVI scripts in existence, B. At this point, it looks like said project is basically "FFVI Retranslated Lite Edition". Definitely not needed.) It looks like all other patches in the Compilation are fine though, thankfully. Advanced Patch Conflict Finder (Which can be found in the Utilities section here on RHDN) is very useful for seeing if things aren't copacetic.

For what it's worth, the following patches work in conjunction with the Bug-fix Comp.

Alphabetical Rage (Assassin) - You probably wouldn't want to use this due to your renamed enemies
B Button Dash [Dash B ver.] (Master ZED) [with additional fixing by SilentEnigma]
Blitz Screen (Leet Sketcher)
Button Settings Menu Restoration (Novalia Spirit)
Color Wheel (Leet Sketcher)
King's Robes (Leet Sketcher)
SwdTech Ready Stance [Version B] (HatZen08)
Total Graphics Uncensorship (vivify93, though as noted there's a small bug in the mine cart battle BG with Dr. Meat's uncensored final bosses patch)
Rewards Display (HatZen08)
Y Equip Relics (Leet Sketcher) [with additional fixing by Subtraction]
Shorter Skill Name Fix (Madsiur)

Not sure if these are compatible with stuff like the expanded strings patch, though.
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Chicken Knife

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #131 on: August 08, 2019, 11:54:35 pm »
Hey. I wanted to send you a note that I've played through the Narshe events with the version of your project that got published today. I really enjoyed all of your writing so far. vivify93 can attest what a pain in the ass I can be about phrasings and such, but this held up very well for me. I've done a FF6 play recently and have too many things on the docket to do the whole game right now, but I was really happy to get a taste of your work and know that I can recommend it.

I do hope you decide at some point to do an alternate version that throws out the localization traditions, but I would suggest sticking with one version for now while you are doing regular updates. Down the road when everything has settled, that's probably a better time for alternates. Managing multiple versions at once is just not worth the headache. Even on my projects, I plan on eventually giving a lot of people what they want with mainstream naming conventions--but they can wait or give our namings a try in the meantime :laugh:
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 09:28:12 am by Chicken Knife »

azidahaka

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #132 on: August 09, 2019, 05:26:20 am »
Kefka's speech style in Japanese varies widely depending on the scene, and I think sometimes even within scenes.  He can sound anywhere from super-arrogant, to giddy little boy, to anywhere in between at the drop of a hat.  I don't know enough about the language to get into specifics very much, but the writing relies at least in part on the fact that Japanese has dozens of personal pronouns, and he frequently switches between them in ways that make him sound bizarre and disturbing.  The long and short of it is that the way he speaks does not translate directly into English very well, and a straightforward rendering would only serve to flatten out the dialog and make it much more bland.

You mean somethings like
"I'll go kill them all, for the puny little me, i'm sure us won't let any survive"

pleasejust

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #133 on: August 09, 2019, 11:44:45 pm »
Quote
You mean somethings like
"I'll go kill them all, for the puny little me, I'm sure us won't let any survive"

I think that actually works. It does kinda make him sound like a rambling psycho.

azidahaka

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #134 on: August 10, 2019, 05:16:39 pm »
I think that actually works. It does kinda make him sound like a rambling psycho.

Yeah this is always what i figured Kefla would sound like in the original japanese version. He's always been a character that resonated with my inner self (sounds weird i know)...

I would love to get a script of kefka's speaches with his pronoum changes so i can kind of "act" them in my mind and come out with my personal own kefka's madness speach.

Would love to hear about his from @hairy_hen what he thinks about this and if it would work as a way to localize Kefka's insanity

tterTreasure

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #135 on: August 11, 2019, 10:42:33 am »
What are the translation errors in FFVI GBA?

hairy_hen

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #136 on: August 13, 2019, 05:07:47 pm »
Hey. I wanted to send you a note that I've played through the Narshe events with the version of your project that got published today. I really enjoyed all of your writing so far. vivify93 can attest what a pain in the ass I can be about phrasings and such, but this held up very well for me. I've done a FF6 play recently and have too many things on the docket to do the whole game right now, but I was really happy to get a taste of your work and know that I can recommend it.

I do hope you decide at some point to do an alternate version that throws out the localization traditions, but I would suggest sticking with one version for now while you are doing regular updates. Down the road when everything has settled, that's probably a better time for alternates. Managing multiple versions at once is just not worth the headache. Even on my projects, I plan on eventually giving a lot of people what they want with mainstream naming conventions--but they can wait or give our namings a try in the meantime :laugh:

I'm glad to hear that!  If you do end up playing the whole thing at a later time, I hope you'll find the rest to be as enjoyable as the beginning.  I am open to the idea of making an alternate version with different character names and so on.  You're right that it would make it more difficult to keep track of changes, so I haven't yet attempted it, but once the project has settled into a finalized state it will be easier to do.

About Kefka's speech: to properly understand the pronoun issue, I suggest reading the Legends of Localization article on the subject: https://legendsoflocalization.com/personal-pronouns-in-japanese/

It took me a little while to wrap my head around this concept, since it is so different from anything English speakers ever have to deal with.  The more I thought about it, the more evident it became that there just isn't anything directly analogous in this language, so any form of writing that relies on it to show information about a character will be lost unless it can be conveyed convincingly in other ways.  There is nothing unusual about Kefka's grammar per se; what makes him sound so strange is the way he seems to change identities whenever he feels like it, which makes him seem distinctly unhinged.  Mato compares Japanese personal pronouns to clothing, which one uses to express a certain view of oneself to others, so it is almost as if Kefka is randomly switching into completely different costumes on a whim.

Given the difficulty of conveying this in translation, giving him extravagant and unusually-worded phrases in English seems less like an alteration and much more like a means of salvaging something that would be deflated if all those pronouns were just rendered as 'I' and 'me'.

What are the translation errors in FFVI GBA?

There are very few outright mistakes in the GBA.  I talked about a few things in an earlier post in the thread, but most of them are more issues with the style than with the actual substance of the writing.  In terms of accuracy this version is pretty much on par with it, so which would make for a better experience is pretty much going to come down to what kind of writing you prefer, and whether you want to play the game in its original form for the SNES or if you don't mind the changes in presentation made in later re-releases.  (And of course the GBA and Steam versions have unofficial mods available to correct some of their graphical and audio problems.)


I started playing version 1.2 a few days ago, and I'm having a good time with it.  This will only be the second time I'll have played FF6 all the way through, so even though I've spent so much time looking at the text, the actual game itself is still relatively new for me.  Naturally I spotted a few places where the text formatting could still be improved, so I'll probably go back and fix up a few little things later on, but for now I'm just kind of getting immersed in the world from a player's perspective.  I wouldn't call it a perfect game by any means ("flawed masterpiece" is probably the best term I can think of to describe it), but it sure is a lot of fun!

Piotyr

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #137 on: August 13, 2019, 07:55:16 pm »
I wouldn't call it a perfect game by any means ("flawed masterpiece" is probably the best term I can think of to describe it)
I think compared to what was out there at the time it very much was a master piece. About the only thing I wish they did different was make the game require more strategy, most of the game can be beat with piling on more damage really.

Chicken Knife

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #138 on: August 13, 2019, 10:57:29 pm »
I strongly agree with the flawed masterpiece tag. While the game has some of the best characters in JRPGs and probably the most iconic plot twist, the narrative gets a little too diffuse for my tastes in act 2, and in that same stretch the gameplay pulls apart at the seams compared to its much tighter predecessor FF5. The game gets way too easy as it goes on, with you killing end game bosses in what seems like seconds--no grinding required. And it's also sad how you get these uber powerful end game equipment pieces and have nothing to kill with them but Brachiosaurs. Never did a game more need a super boss. I guess we could go to the GBA but eww to that. Adding in a godly powerful Kaiser Dragon is something I'm shocked isn't readily available in a patch. Or maybe it is? The list is a little overwhelming.

And speaking of being overpowered in the end game, there's a bug I'm not sure I've ever seen fixed: the fact that the master scroll doesn't halve damage on each strike from fixed dice like it does for every other weapon. Would actually love to see a fix for that. I always tell myself I'm not going to abuse it but I always end up doing so. And I'm quite sure the master scroll doesn't halve the damage of the valiant knife either. Maybe there's more?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 11:04:39 pm by Chicken Knife »

Piotyr

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #139 on: August 14, 2019, 03:36:45 am »
Honestly FF5 had better gameplay but FF6 has better story, having no real main character through the entire game (Terra Celes and Locke come close but still) is an interesting concept that not many other games do.