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Author Topic: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated  (Read 27410 times)

svenge

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #100 on: July 28, 2019, 01:25:54 pm »
I wish Tomato had opted to make namings part of his own efforts--which I'm sure would have made approaching them more appealing to you. But nevertheless, I think that names for items, spells, monsters, even characters are just as important a part of a game's translation as the story itself. They are not arbitrary things but elements that we, both in the past as children and still today as adults, become totally engrossed by.

Looking at your patch for the first Dragon Quest game, I think you've gone a step too far in arbitrarily making up spell names that don't fit either the conventions from previous official English translations nor even simply transliterate the original Japanese.  A player shouldn't be expected to have to read patch notes just to figure out basic interface functions like that.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 01:42:22 pm by svenge »

AdamDravian

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #101 on: July 28, 2019, 02:26:47 pm »
As far as translating creature names, I'd really appreciate it if Kappa was not translated as Imp. I think kappas have gained enough foothold in English pop culture that such an adaptation is no longer necessary.
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Chicken Knife

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #102 on: July 28, 2019, 03:08:17 pm »
Looking at your patch for the first Dragon Quest game, I think you've gone a step too far in arbitrarily making up spell names that don't fit either the conventions from previous official English translations nor even simply transliterate the original Japanese.  A player shouldn't be expected to have to read patch notes just to figure out basic interface functions like that.
I apologize for shifting to another game topic on this thread but I have to respond to this. I can't even begin to tell you how much research and how many discussions with a litany of people went into the choice to create a new spell naming system when we actually began with transliterating the spells. I initially went with transliterating the spells because they first appeared to be nonsense words in Japanese. People weren't pleased with this choice as the vast majority of English language players were not familiar with the Japanese spell names. Regardless, we stuck to our guns for some time. After lots of additional research and pulling in skilled partners, we determined that a majority of the Japanese spell names actually do contain fragments of meaning, clear enough to have given a Japanese person a vague sense of the spell function. The NES spell names were too straightforward to resemble this. The contemporary naming system was also more straightforward than the Japanese along with most of the names sounding very silly and not matching the original tone. As for the system that my team came up with, this is the first time I've heard someone say that they had no sense of the functions. Exaraki for instance (based on the Japanese spell Zaraki or Thwack/Defeat in official translations) is intended to sound a bit like execution. If they are a little vague, that is ultimately what we were going for with the goal of equivalency. But if you are actually familiar with the Japanese naming system, that should make them even clearer. As Exaraki demonstrates, they tend to be very similar to the Japanese words. But in general, if a player has no desire to go through the exact same process every Japanese kid did when the DQ games were released, the Delocalized hacks are probably not for them.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 04:26:19 pm by Chicken Knife »

BlazeHeatnix

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #103 on: July 28, 2019, 03:09:12 pm »
I think this thread could use a different name, so as not to confuse with the 100 other Retranslation projects out there.

Special

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #104 on: July 28, 2019, 03:47:34 pm »
Who is being confused by the name that requires this change? How many active re-translation projects are even going or being discussed right now, like there's the Woolsey thread and then this one... OP is pretty clear what this project is about.

svenge

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #105 on: July 28, 2019, 08:58:45 pm »
But in general, if a player has no desire to go through the exact same process every Japanese kid did when the DQ games were released, the Delocalized hacks are probably not for them.

Seeing that I just want a "standard" translation with its dialog/storyline not mangled like JRPG translations of the 80s/90s typically were while using modern conventions for items/spells/enemies (especially for series whose later games got proper translations), I guess it's not for me then.

Chicken Knife

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #106 on: July 28, 2019, 10:13:33 pm »
Seeing that I just want a "standard" translation with its dialog/storyline not mangled like JRPG translations of the 80s/90s typically were while using modern conventions for items/spells/enemies (especially for series whose later games got proper translations), I guess it's not for me then.
Not an issue at all. I certainly didn't develop my hack for everyone. You'd probably enjoy what Choppasmith is doing a great deal more.

Going back to FF6, I do think the contemporary Final Fantasy item/spell/enemy naming conventions are a hell of a lot better and closer to the style of the original creation than they are for Dragon Quest, in spite of my nitpicks.

Since it seems to have been used as the base, I'm curious how consistently the Ted Woosley Uncensored Edition sticks to those modern conventions. For spells, it certainly does. And I remember enemy names being thoroughly updated. But I seem to recall item names sticking pretty closely to the SNES version. I just attempted to pull up the readme file for TWUE but none of that information is there unfortunately. If my impression is correct that those namings are in fact not the modern namings, perhaps they could at least be updated to the modern ones for this project?

Rodimus Primal

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #107 on: July 28, 2019, 10:46:29 pm »
Not an issue at all. I certainly didn't develop my hack for everyone. You'd probably enjoy what Choppasmith is doing a great deal more.

Going back to FF6, I do think the contemporary Final Fantasy item/spell/enemy naming conventions are a hell of a lot better and closer to the style of the original creation than they are for Dragon Quest, in spite of my nitpicks.

Since it seems to have been used as the base, I'm curious how consistently the Ted Woosley Uncensored Edition sticks to those modern conventions. For spells, it certainly does. And I remember enemy names being thoroughly updated. But I seem to recall item names sticking pretty closely to the SNES version. I just attempted to pull up the readme file for TWUE but none of that information is there unfortunately. If my impression is correct that those namings are in fact not the modern namings, perhaps they could at least be updated to the modern ones for this project?

I have more than one read-me file when you download TWUE. The basic one gives you the gist of the project, the change log, and patching instructions. There's also a bug-fixes used compendium, a monster list, an item list, and a document (thanks to Chronosplit) detailing what other patches are compatible with TWUE. For the most part, I went with modern names with a few exceptions here and there.

Chicken Knife

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #108 on: July 28, 2019, 11:38:23 pm »
I have more than one read-me file when you download TWUE. The basic one gives you the gist of the project, the change log, and patching instructions. There's also a bug-fixes used compendium, a monster list, an item list, and a document (thanks to Chronosplit) detailing what other patches are compatible with TWUE. For the most part, I went with modern names with a few exceptions here and there.
Thanks for chiming in and directing me to those lists. Yes, I can see with a quick peruse that everything is very much in line with contemporary conventions.

tc

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #109 on: July 29, 2019, 12:20:24 am »
Seeing that I just want a "standard" translation with its dialog/storyline not mangled like JRPG translations of the 80s/90s typically were while using modern conventions for items/spells/enemies (especially for series whose later games got proper translations), I guess it's not for me then.

Well that's assuming the modern conventions are adequate. What do you do when the official translation even today is still by all means utterly wrong, but fans will be irate if it's changed?

hairy_hen

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #110 on: July 29, 2019, 10:57:18 am »
Kwhazit has a comprehensive list of names for items and enemies and so forth, so I spent part of yesterday going through it to see whether any changes to naming were warranted.  I found that it largely agrees with the GBA version on how to translate these things, so it seems nearly all of them can be left as they are without issue, because they are already accurately worded.

There were a few notable differences, so I did end up making some adjustments where they felt significant.  Only a small number of items have been changed, but I did end up renaming somewhere around ten percent of the enemies to reflect the Japanese more closely.

Some of them are clearly nonsensical joke names, and changing them to something more straightforward doesn't result in the loss of any important information.  Nonetheless I did try to port these over where I could.  One enemy is called something like "Barf of Love" spelled backwards.   :huh:  I ended up naming him "Evoltimov".  Another was especially obscure: it is the word for 'bird', backwards and misspelled, followed by a division sign, followed by 'snake', again backwards and misspelled.   :o   After much back and forth on whether this was even worth bothering with, I eventually settled on "Revo Ekans".

I haven't looked at the spell names yet, but I expect the situation there will be similar and not much will need to be done.

Chicken Knife asked about how well the story information is presented in the GBA version.  Mato was quite consistent in his praise for how well it was translated, and if you play that version you'll get nearly all of it.  There are a few things that aren't quite right, such as the 'Magitek' issue I mentioned earlier, and Kefka making eloquent remarks to Celes after she stabs him, when he's actually supposed to be freaking out and screaming/babbling incoherently.  It also has some unfortunate things like Ultros making jokes about tentacle porn; and it translates Cyan calling Celes a "dog of the Empire" as "Imperial b--", which contextually feels off and should be more akin to calling her "swine" or something of that nature.  There were probably a few other things like this that I don't remember off the top of my head.

My version deals with these things more straightforwardly and without the weirdness, so naturally I prefer it; but the GBA's issues are pretty minor overall and it certainly isn't wrong to play and enjoy that version.  One of the things Mato often emphasized is that there isn't always just one valid way of translating things, and he tended to refrain from definitively stating that one approach or interpretation was unquestionably superior to another.  I adhered to his assessment of the original script quite closely, but undoubtedly my own reaction to what he was saying would have affected the tone of the writing to some extent.

Anyway, we're probably looking at a version 1.2 in the near future, to incorporate some naming updates and additional text formatting improvements, and hopefully there won't be much more to do after that.  I still want to actually play this thing at some point without looking for stuff to be fixed.  ;)

Chicken Knife

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #111 on: July 29, 2019, 11:19:07 am »
Kwhazit has a comprehensive list of names for items and enemies and so forth, so I spent part of yesterday going through it to see whether any changes to naming were warranted.  I found that it largely agrees with the GBA version on how to translate these things, so it seems nearly all of them can be left as they are without issue, because they are already accurately worded.

There were a few notable differences, so I did end up making some adjustments where they felt significant.  Only a small number of items have been changed, but I did end up renaming somewhere around ten percent of the enemies to reflect the Japanese more closely.

Some of them are clearly nonsensical joke names, and changing them to something more straightforward doesn't result in the loss of any important information.  Nonetheless I did try to port these over where I could.  One enemy is called something like "Barf of Love" spelled backwards.   :huh:  I ended up naming him "Evoltimov".  Another was especially obscure: it is the word for 'bird', backwards and misspelled, followed by a division sign, followed by 'snake', again backwards and misspelled.   :o   After much back and forth on whether this was even worth bothering with, I eventually settled on "Revo Ekans".

I haven't looked at the spell names yet, but I expect the situation there will be similar and not much will need to be done.

Chicken Knife asked about how well the story information is presented in the GBA version.  Mato was quite consistent in his praise for how well it was translated, and if you play that version you'll get nearly all of it.  There are a few things that aren't quite right, such as the 'Magitek' issue I mentioned earlier, and Kefka making eloquent remarks to Celes after she stabs him, when he's actually supposed to be freaking out and screaming/babbling incoherently.  It also has some unfortunate things like Ultros making jokes about tentacle porn; and it translates Cyan calling Celes a "dog of the Empire" as "Imperial b--", which contextually feels off and should be more akin to calling her "swine" or something of that nature.  There were probably a few other things like this that I don't remember off the top of my head.

My version deals with these things more straightforwardly and without the weirdness, so naturally I prefer it; but the GBA's issues are pretty minor overall and it certainly isn't wrong to play and enjoy that version.  One of the things Mato often emphasized is that there isn't always just one valid way of translating things, and he tended to refrain from definitively stating that one approach or interpretation was unquestionably superior to another.  I adhered to his assessment of the original script quite closely, but undoubtedly my own reaction to what he was saying would have affected the tone of the writing to some extent.

Anyway, we're probably looking at a version 1.2 in the near future, to incorporate some naming updates and additional text formatting improvements, and hopefully there won't be much more to do after that.  I still want to actually play this thing at some point without looking for stuff to be fixed.  ;)
Thanks for taking a look through those lists.  :) I figured there wouldn't be many needed tweaks but I'm sure the ones you updated were meaningful improvements. Doing so makes your project even more comprehensive in its scope. For character names, the game provides the option of renaming them so I'll happily be able to use Tina, Mash, Cayenne, etc. As far as enemy names, I enjoyed hearing about the original's use of reversing the letter order of words. I've always noticed how absolutely bizarre many of the enemy names are in FF6 and FF7 and this practice certainly sheds some light on the matter. Also, as I said before, if you come across something that doesn't make sense in Japanese and you aren't finding quality information about it, let me know. I have two partners who are brilliant at solving these kinds of things.

As far as being able to enjoy it like a player, good luck with that!  :laugh: I can never manage to take off my editor's hat, even though half of the reason we make these things is for our own satisfaction. Maybe years down the road I'll be able to just play them and immerse myself without constantly worrying about what can be improved.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2019, 11:34:34 am by Chicken Knife »

AdamDravian

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #112 on: July 29, 2019, 01:37:24 pm »
For character names, the game provides the option of renaming them so I'll happily be able to use Tina, Mash, Cayenne, etc.

Very true. Yet we're at the mercy of Hairy Hen when it comes to NPCs. Personally, I'm hoping to see the following characters have their more accurate names:
Orthros
Typhon
Madeline
Gastra (or even Gestra ... something closer to the original)
Madeen

And ever since I've learned what an ESPer is (someone with ESP powers), it stands out as an extremely odd choice for a race of legendary beings. I know another official translation is eidolon, but I still feel a better term could be used. As I'm sure many of you know, the Japanese term (which is consistently used in every Japanese FF game that features them) is “Genjuu”, which is a made-up term that combines the kanji for “illusory/phantom” and the kanji for “beast/big monster/big creature.” So a literal translation could be something like Phantom-Beast, Mythic-Monster, or Legendary-Creature, but those all fail to convey that it’s a new made-up fantasy word. So something like Mythster or Phanbeast would be more accurate. Personally, I might go with something like Mythics, which I feel conveys the same ethereal vibe that "esper" does but without the out of place ESP connection.
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vivify93

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #113 on: July 29, 2019, 02:16:47 pm »
You could always just call them Eidolons, like most modern FFs do. Though that creates an issue of needing a squish tile set in the Skills menu...
All my life I've tried to fight what history has given me.

Chicken Knife

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #114 on: July 29, 2019, 03:05:26 pm »
This got me playing with compound words. The best I came up with is probably Spectradon--the don suffix, although referring in Greek to teeth, is commonly associated with great beasts. However, the length of that one--along with all the others I came up with--would be problematic.

Eidolon has a very appropriate Greek origin and meaning and I think it does achieve a beast like effect. The GBA translation team did a fine job in choosing this.

As far as AdamDravian's wish for comprehensive character renamings, I'm obviously of the same feeling--but we are in the minority. Nostalgia runs fiercest with character names, especially in a series that has never changed them with official localizations. If hairy_hen doesn't share our feelings, I would certainly understand and it wouldn't stop me from enjoying this hack.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2019, 03:17:28 pm by Chicken Knife »

AdamDravian

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #115 on: July 29, 2019, 05:20:23 pm »
Eidolon has a very appropriate Greek origin and meaning and I think it does achieve a beast like effect. The GBA translation team did a fine job in choosing this.

Yeah, I think Eidolon is totally acceptable and is definitely an improvement over Esper. I only have two really minor gripes with it. One, it's an actual word, whereas genjuu is a made-up compound word. And two, the pronunciation for Eidolon isn't very intuitive, so I always hear people mispronounce it as AHY-doh-lohn instead of the correct pronunciation: ahy-DOH-luhn.

Like I said, really minor gripes.
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vivify93

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #116 on: July 29, 2019, 05:44:10 pm »
Eidolon has a very appropriate Greek origin and meaning and I think it does achieve a beast like effect. The GBA translation team did a fine job in choosing this.
Slattery's translation (Not just the GBA version, but all later releases that use his script) actually uses Espers, too.
All my life I've tried to fight what history has given me.

Chicken Knife

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #117 on: July 29, 2019, 05:54:24 pm »
Slattery's translation (Not just the GBA version, but all later releases that use his script) actually uses Espers, too.

No kidding! I guess he considered it, along with character names, to be off-limits for revision.

pleasejust

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #118 on: July 29, 2019, 09:09:02 pm »
I always disliked son of a submariner. Other than that and a few other minor things, I think this might be the definitive FFVI translation and hack combo. Nice work. Now. In retrospect, as far as the actual game is concerned... eeehh hasn't aged that well for me.

vivify93

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
« Reply #119 on: July 29, 2019, 09:43:30 pm »
No kidding! I guess he considered it, along with character names, to be off-limits for revision.
There's that, I guess, and then other games (Mostly the Ivalice Alliance) use the term "Esper" as well. FFVI was kind of the genesis of the term in the series.
All my life I've tried to fight what history has given me.