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Author Topic: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329  (Read 480852 times)

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201209
« Reply #1680 on: December 09, 2020, 05:02:45 pm »
Version 2020-12-09:
https://filebin.net/7spaiz2xfys6b2i1/SoM_Turbo.201209.zip

Changes:
- Implemented Bug_Fixes\Whip_8th_Charge_Animation; fixes a vanilla animation mistake for the up-facing and down-facing versions of the whip's strongest charge attack
- Implemented unique Cobra Shuttle graphics via Graphics\Polished_Weapons



Quote from: Dulcineax28
Bugfixes:
Do you have a specific place for us to send bugs we find or is the forum here fine?

The biggest one I've found so far is some errors in enemy attack patterns with Turbo attacking on. Those being:
  • Kid Goblin will (almost) never swing his axe, he'll walk near you and occasionally throw boomerang, but typically that's it.
  • Iffish I can't seem to get an attack pattern off at all, just sometimes spellcasting?
  • Zombies will occasionally cast a spell on you but I believe they also aren't melee attacking whatsoever.
Here would be the best place.

I've never really settled on how I want to tackle this. The vanilla AI is often very faulty on its own, so in some cases Turbo behavior is the same as vanilla, in some cases it just magnifies existing flaws, but in some cases it is the cause of new flaws (especially when the AI relies on stamina / exhaustion to change AI logic). I tried a simple approach to deal with the latter, where a random number check fills in for an exhaustion check, but that isn't a panacea.

Rewriting all the AI (or at least what needs rewriting) is the best solution, but a pretty huge undertaking, and the most annoying aspect is dealing with calculating relative jumps in the AI scripting. The ZPS format doesn't have any ready-made capability for that, and counting by hand at least doubles the work load to make AI script edits. I haven't reached the point where I want to make secondary tools just to handle AI scripting, so that stymies my efforts to make changes.

Anyway, feel free to note anything that seems off. It gives me additional reminders of what may need improvement. The three you wrote of there are a good way to describe the issues you notice: the enemy and a concise description of what's wrong.

Quote from: Dulcineax28
Future plans:
Any chance you'll make Randomizer Rom files compatible in the future, or add some of the features from it to your project yourself? Notable standouts include:

Randomizing weapons and weapon orbs (Insane variability and replayability over the base game)

Enemy/Boss rearrangement or randomization (Even more replayability)

A difficulty slider (Which as far as I can tell mostly allows you to multiply or divide the attack power of every monster/boss in the game)
I just don't see full compatibility between the projects as technically feasible. The randomizer (and Turbo) makes significant changes to the ROM where there is just no sane way to coordinate / communicate said changes between the two patchers to avoid changing the same bytes and resulting in an unusable SNES ROM. It would be possible to figure out some subset of Turbo project features that are compatible with a randomized ROM, and so could be applied after using the randomizer on a ROM, but doing that in detail would take... many hours, or days? Doing it via trial and error would be worse, but it's not something I want to commit to at the moment (it's a laborious and tedious process at best to cross-check what changes what and work around and/or label conflicts).

As for those specific features, the ZPS patcher doesn't have a mechanism for making decisions based on a random number. Hand-made reorganization of weapon locations or boss / enemy selection is possible, but it glosses over how much work Mop put into normalizing and scaling enemy stats so that relocating them would result in something fun (and all the bugs they resolved related to relocating bosses especially).

What's probably not obvious is how much needs to be changed for any of that to be possible (and how much Mop's randomizer is actually doing to make it possible). Weapon orbs require changes to events for boss drops, object spawn tables for static orb chests, and enemy drop tables for the Mana Fortress orb drops; the enemy drop tables is the least likely to be relocated or conflict with another patch, the object spawn tables more easily have conflicts (these are fairly fragile and are often shifted to pull off some interesting patches that add or move enemies or chests), and the event edits have a huge chance of conflict (any text replacement, i.e. VWF Edition, Relocalized, Reborn, is going to alter where in the ROM needs to be changed to alter boss orb drops). And that's to directly exchange weapon orb drops; if you wanted to move them to locations that weren't already a weapon orb, it's even more work. Changing bosses require a lot more effort than juggling weapon orbs around (changing boss code that makes assumptions based on their vanilla arena, changing which event activates when a boss is defeated or changing the events themselves, overhauling their stats so that they're a balanced fight at the point you encounter them... surely countless other things I'm not guessing ahead of time since I've not pursued this).

The difficulty slider can be approximated with Balance\Monster_Stat_Modifiers (and the related settings in the Advanced Options menu). Obviously it's not exactly the same, and not as simple for the user, but it's available.

Quote from: Dulcineax28
Pipedreams:
I'd love to see all 3 players capable of casting magic and the ability to select who gets which spells in the in the launcher.

Bonus selectable stat points on level up, 2 or 3 points you can put in any stat of your choosing (I could see this one being incredibly difficult to code, consider it a huge curiosity of mine)
It's not impossible to change which two of the three characters cast spells, and then which spells they have access to. It would likely be a decent chunk of work to let all 3 have spells at the same time (lots of hardcoded assumptions that one character won't have spell menus, unlocked spell flags, etc.). The UI for assigning spells in the ZPS patcher would probably be pretty clunky.

Likely the sanest approach for a selectable skill point on level system would be to co-opt the event system to prompt the user, and add some new event commands that would assign the points selected. As far as I recall, there's nothing in save data to account for this (stats are pulled from a static table based on current level), so would require extensions to save data saving and loading to retain the choices, well, and overriding the table-based stats.

These just aren't something I currently have interest in though. While, sure, some of my favorite games are ones where I allocate skill points and such as I level my character, I like that I don't have to make permanent character progression choices in Secret of Mana. In theory, the boy, girl and sprite's stat differences are a stand-in for allocating stats as you level (à la Final Fantasy Adventure), and exaggerating these differences might be a more Secret of Mana-y way to spice up your choice, but even that isn't something I personally have interest in doing (planning and plotting stat curves isn't my idea of fun).

I know that this response is largely "sorry, but, no" but I hope it comes across that I did appreciate what you had to say. To continually work on this project, what's kept me going has been a mixture of:
  • Did I wish it worked this way when I played this 26(ish) years ago?
  • Will I enjoy using the change I'm making?
  • Bugs go squish.
  • If acting on someone else's request, will implementing it be fun?
The first or second, I can usually put up with some extremely tedious implementation requirements to see it to fruition (see: art edits, map edits, time of day system, equipment affecting hero appearance, world map edits, as examples; they're pretty much all huge amounts of effort), the fourth has a pretty high bar for what level of tedium I'm willing to put up with, especially if it's not something I'd play with enabled myself. My motivations are selfish but intrinsic, driven by my whims, yet that's allowed me to keep at this for two years now.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2020, 03:14:03 pm by Queue »

miaz

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201209
« Reply #1681 on: December 22, 2020, 07:32:48 am »
Any clues as to why this happens? "ZPS Patcher has stopped working",

I managed to run it not long ago, i patched the game, i got onto my snes classic, but had
to do a bit of maintenance, so got rid of it and everything else on there,
and now when i open ZPS patcher, it crashes.

December 22, 2020, 09:55:59 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Whatever the issue is its clearly a windows issue, but in the meantime,
i had my brother patch it for me on his computer.
Another issue arose there though.
Once ROM is loaded he gets this warning message:
"Invalid Input ROM Detected
Output ROM will crash and not be functional
Locate the correct ROM and try again"
its the exact rom ive myself tried before, and i never got that message.
He patched it anyways, and ive tried to run on Snes9x and no issues what i can tell.
Can i expect any issues further in to the game?

« Last Edit: December 22, 2020, 09:55:59 am by miaz »

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201209
« Reply #1682 on: December 22, 2020, 03:49:17 pm »
Not enough information to know what's crashing the patcher. Is that happening right when you try and start it? With or without ZPS_Helper.bat?
If you make a file named:
SoM Turbo.201209.log (or whatever exact version you're using)
That enables debug logging which, if it's not crashing too early, might have some clue inside as to when it's failing, if it's crashing while trying to patch. That won't help if it's crashing when you just try and start the patcher though.

As to the error your brother is seeing, I never really expected that error message to be triggered. After patching, the Helper Script does some simple validation to make sure you didn't patch a headered ROM (old copier 512-byte, or SFROM 48-byte or 96-byte headers). If it doesn't find the correct value where it expects, but also not in the spot that indicates one of those 3, then it shows the generic message your brother saw. It almost definitely indicates the result will not work correctly, and almost definitely means a non-vanilla ROM was used as input to the patcher.



Regarding my apparent lull, I've actually been frantically busy integrating Reborn into Turbo and implementing a variable width font for it.

Adjusted line wrapping to make use of the increased space will come later. I'm still working on the code side of things.

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201209
« Reply #1683 on: December 22, 2020, 05:49:03 pm »
Regarding my apparent lull, I've actually been frantically busy integrating Reborn into Turbo and implementing a variable width font for it.

Adjusted line wrapping to make use of the increased space will come later. I'm still working on the code side of things.

Great work, Queue!  Can't wait to play it.  There were a lot of lines in Reborn that had to be truncated due to the limited space, and this will give them a chance to breathe.

miaz

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201209
« Reply #1684 on: December 22, 2020, 09:53:18 pm »
ZPS crashing is most definitely just down to my computer and a windows issue, it actually gives you some info when crashing,
could jot that down some day. It crashes pretty much as i open it, even when running helper.

I sent him both a headered and unheadered ROM, and with the headered ROM it basically lets you know that its wrong by being a bunch of red, whereas with the unheadered it was all green.
It was the exact ROM i myself have used without that warning message. Ive tried the game out, ive played for a bit and no issues.

Ill try to find another one then. I never really looked up what ROM i need, and just tried a bunch until one worked.
Is it OK to ask what ROM i need? I know i cant as where to find it.
Thanks.

lexluthermiester

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201209
« Reply #1685 on: December 22, 2020, 10:34:29 pm »
Regarding my apparent lull, I've actually been frantically busy integrating Reborn into Turbo and implementing a variable width font for it.
It's all good man. Most of us are patient and understanding!

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201209
« Reply #1686 on: December 22, 2020, 10:37:50 pm »
miaz, if the File Size and CRC32 labels in the patcher are green, then it's the correct ROM.

And if so, then I'm SUPER confused how that error message would be coming up. It just really shouldn't be possible. Hm, what's a responsible way to figure this out...

If you could generate an IPS file from the patched ROM (against the correct unheadered ROM the patch was made from) and upload that IPS file (filebin.net is an easy anonymous file host, sendpace.com is another option, and there are plenty of others) and link it here, I can analyze the file and see if I can figure out what went wrong. Nearly all IPS patching tools also have an option to generate an IPS file.

Likewise, if you could get the SoM Turbo.201209.ini file from the result of your brother patching (that could be copy&pasted here within spoiler tags, uploaded via pastebin.com, or via a file host like previously listed), that'd give me additional info to work from.

Something is making that error message show, and it's checking a pretty critical value in the ROM to decide to show that message (the native reset vector) so if it's throwing an error, I definitely can't promise that something won't break due to... whatever it is.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2020, 10:45:58 pm by Queue »

miaz

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201209
« Reply #1687 on: December 22, 2020, 10:55:39 pm »
Both File Size and CRC32 labels are green yes.

How do i generate an IPS file?
Where does the .ini file end up? Im pretty sure he deleted everything now that i said it was working.
Ill send him the ROM from yesterday, and a bunch of new ones to try out.


Ive got some tools on my computer, just to make sure its the correct ROM (that i sent him, and will send him)
External header: No
File / Rom size: 2097152 (2000000)
Rom CRC32: D0176B24
ROM SHA-1: 81330 41A36 3E3CC 68CED EF40B 49B6D 20D0 3C505D
No-Intro entry: Secret of Mana (USA)
Checksum valid: Yes
(This is the one that ended up with the Warning, but ill send him a few more now to try)

Oh yeah, he sent me a screenshot
« Last Edit: December 22, 2020, 11:17:35 pm by miaz »

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201209
« Reply #1688 on: December 23, 2020, 01:58:53 am »
No, that's exactly the correct ROM, no need for him to try others as input as you have the correct one.

The .ini file winds up in the same folder as the output patched ROM.

To generate an IPS, snag an IPS patcher such as:
https://www.romhacking.net/utilities/1040/

With that utility specifically:

Run it and click "Create Patch" and it'll prompt you with File Open dialog boxes that specify which file to select as their title. For example:
Select ORIGINAL UNMODIFIED File to Use
Select NEW MODIFIED File to Use
Select File to Save As

Other IPS patchers will have a similar process. Commandline ones will expect original, modified, and resulting IPS file all passed as commandline arguments.

Despite my phrasing in that patcher error message (Invalid Input ROM Detected), the detection actually happens AFTER patching has completed; it's actually validating the output to make sure some stuff turned out as expected.

miaz

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201209
« Reply #1689 on: December 23, 2020, 06:29:22 am »
Sorry, you might have explained as good as one can, but i still dont really understand how to use the IPS generator.

Select ORIGINAL UNMODIFIED File to Use
- the original unmodified ROM?

Select NEW MODIFIED File to Use
- the modified (turbo) rom?

Select File to Save As
- this i get

December 23, 2020, 06:35:58 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Ok, think i got it
https://filebin.net/29wjni96cmhb9h57
« Last Edit: December 23, 2020, 06:35:58 am by miaz »

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201209
« Reply #1690 on: December 25, 2020, 04:34:19 am »
miaz, you worked it correctly, I got the file. Sooo... it appears to have been a completely correct, all default options 201130 patch of Turbo, which makes the error message all the more baffling. My best guess is the Helper Script failed to read the patched ROM, maybe due to other software interfering (backup software, anti-virus software, etc. could affect the Helper Script getting to see the file correctly in a worst case scenario), and so it erroneously showed the error message. Go figure. I do appreciate you jumping through hoops for me so I could try and track down potential issues. I've added a very simple .NET Framework version check to the next release's Helper Script to show a warning if it can't find .NET Framework 4.5.2 (it'll still try and run the Patcher even if it can't, and hopefully the warning won't get any false positives, fingers crossed).



As for the variable width font for Reborn:

The previous image was a best case scenario. This one is a worst case, where letters fall on tile seams in annoying ways, and two of the lines are composed of fragments. You can see missing outline or parts of characters here, as I don't have fragment compositing functional yet. The money display also isn't right-aligned yet. But getting spacing working correctly was the tricky part here; now that that's functional, saving enough data between fragments to avoid erasing parts of previous fragments shouldn't be too tough.

Erm, and obviously that's not the normal text for that sign. I just set it up for easy testing.

Pethronos

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201209
« Reply #1691 on: December 25, 2020, 05:03:02 am »
Titanic work Queue, as always.

Happy Christmas to all of you  :beer:

miaz

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201209
« Reply #1692 on: December 25, 2020, 05:14:25 am »
Queue
No problem, least i could do! Brother was up for getting you the ini file too, if it helps?
Guess it wont now that everything turned out ok.

Do you have a complete list of all the hacks? Or is that only available in the patcher?

December 27, 2020, 01:49:17 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Im really loving this! Beyond the visuals and some of the locations, i dont really remember anything, which i did not think would be the case.


Im guessing this is a bug, but the Sword Orb chest you get in the Ruins in Northtown (is that what the place is called?). Anyways, the Ruins whre you fight Vampire. That chest can be opened twice.

Also, you can cross the sands up to the area that brings you to the Moon Palace? in the desert.
If you equip the Spear and just attack, you can attack-cross the sands to the other side. I dont know if that is suppose to work.

Theres a few ideas i got for menus etc, dont know if they can be done, but ill get back to you when ive completed the game.

Massive thanks for this hack!
« Last Edit: December 27, 2020, 01:49:17 am by miaz »

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201209
« Reply #1693 on: December 27, 2020, 01:54:21 am »
miaz You probably missed the Sword Orb in Pandora chest room after beating the Wall boss. Hence why you got it twice.

As for the Moon Palace, yes it's possible to enter it the moment you get to the Desert after Mech Rider fight. There's literally nothing in that palace so I like that you can just get over it early instead.

miaz

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201209
« Reply #1694 on: December 27, 2020, 02:19:19 am »
miaz You probably missed the Sword Orb in Pandora chest room after beating the Wall boss. Hence why you got it twice.

As for the Moon Palace, yes it's possible to enter it the moment you get to the Desert after Mech Rider fight. There's literally nothing in that palace so I like that you can just get over it early instead.

Thanks! I somewhat wondered if it was because i missed one, ill go back and get it then.

Ok, i just turned around, worried i would mess smoething up. Was just such a weird way of getting across.

Btw, is Mr X a Simpsons reference?

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201209
« Reply #1695 on: December 27, 2020, 03:19:35 pm »
Thanks! I somewhat wondered if it was because i missed one, ill go back and get it then.

Ok, i just turned around, worried i would mess smoething up. Was just such a weird way of getting across.

Btw, is Mr X a Simpsons reference?

Completely random, unoriginal name I came up with. No reference on my part at all  :laugh:

Zeikar

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201209
« Reply #1696 on: January 03, 2021, 01:27:46 am »
There's something wrong with the polished weapons. Girl and Sprite have white blocks in animation swinging the Stout Axe. Could I be the only one with this problem?

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201209
« Reply #1697 on: January 03, 2021, 01:58:54 am »
There's something wrong with the polished weapons. Girl and Sprite have white blocks in animation swinging the Stout Axe. Could I be the only one with this problem?
No, that's some mistake on my part. I reproduced the issue on my end: some frames of the glowy swing trail are getting corrupted for some reason. I'll figure out why and work out a fix as soon as possible. Thanks for reporting it! I kept equipping the girl and sprite with the alternate graphics axe but apparently never tried attacking! Whoops.

Zeikar

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201209
« Reply #1698 on: January 03, 2021, 02:15:53 am »
No, that's some mistake on my part. I reproduced the issue on my end: some frames of the glowy swing trail are getting corrupted for some reason. I'll figure out why and work out a fix as soon as possible. Thanks for reporting it! I kept equipping the girl and sprite with the alternate graphics axe but apparently never tried attacking! Whoops.
Oh okay. I thought maybe I patched something wrong or it was my emulator. I prefer the VWF version but it has its bad reading moments, overall it's the better option right now. I don't like all the changes in relocalized. However I would take the change of Jema to Gemma and Phanna to Pamaela, because those do sound better. I wish I had that option. Actually I could take the dialog script of Relocalized maybe but rip out the stuff that changes items names and things like Sylphid becoming Jinn. Also GP becoming L (Lucre) or whatever JUST NO.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2021, 02:26:20 am by Zeikar »

lexluthermiester

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201209
« Reply #1699 on: January 03, 2021, 02:42:12 am »
Also GP becoming L (Lucre) or whatever JUST NO.
Totally agree. Gil is also not cool. GP is more authentic.