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Author Topic: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200810  (Read 330579 times)

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« Reply #1440 on: May 25, 2020, 10:08:28 am »
LightBaneX Yeah, kinda agree the boy having nothing to stand out among the 3 players till the final battle is bullshit. Wouldn't have hurt the original game to have given him some spell that fits him thematically, like the saber spells maybe, but I have no clue if it can be done something about him anymore if it wasn't done originally.

I remember my first time I got Undine and thought "oh now my characters can use spells, how awesome", except the Hero, that was quite the letdown for me as a kid back then, nothing to stand out.

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« Reply #1441 on: May 25, 2020, 01:26:54 pm »
LightBaneX Yeah, kinda agree the boy having nothing to stand out among the 3 players till the final battle is bullshit. Wouldn't have hurt the original game to have given him some spell that fits him thematically, like the saber spells maybe, but I have no clue if it can be done something about him anymore if it wasn't done originally.

I remember my first time I got Undine and thought "oh now my characters can use spells, how awesome", except the Hero, that was quite the letdown for me as a kid back then, nothing to stand out.

Most folks use Randi as the primary attacker.  He is stronger than the other two characters, though that difference may be negligible in the grand scheme of things.  Perhaps it would have been better for him to be stronger to a degree that using the other two for physical attacks is a disadvantage?

He has a casting animation which may indicate that there were originally spells for him.   Many intended elements of Secret of Mana were later used in Chrono Trigger and Trials of Mana, and I believe all characters in those games have access to magic or some special tech.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2020, 02:30:56 pm by reconstructingmana »

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« Reply #1442 on: May 25, 2020, 02:14:53 pm »
Most folks use Randi as the primary attacker.  He is stronger than the other two characters, though that difference may be negligible in the grand scheme of things.  Perhaps it would have better for him to be stronger to a degree that using the other two for physical attacks is a disadvantage?

He has a casting animation which may indicate that there were originally spells for him.   Many intended elements of Secret of Mana were later used in Chrono Trigger and Trials of Mana, and I believe all characters in those games have access to magic or some special tech.

I use Randi till the Girl at least gets 4-5 spirits, then I switch to her quite frequently she's more fun to play overall, while Popoie casts from a corner if possible.
But I have no clue how Randi could be improved on to be less bland. I don't think he needs an attack boost necessary he is strong enough physically imo, even if you decrease the attack power of the other two, he still would be bland to use, other two characters have access to weapons and spells, Randi just weapons.

Yeah in Trials of Mana and Chrono Trigger all characters have access to techs/spells. Always found that the sprites of Randi/Crono and Purim/Marle looked very similar.

Btw your website is awesome, had a fun time reading some content on it, very interesting stuff.

Edit: I guess one way would be to make Randi's charge attacks faster so that might distinguish him more from Purim/Sprite who would have the current charge time attack, while lowering the attack of all 3 characters, so Randi makes the use of charge techs worth it, coupled with Speed up and how it functions in turbo, would work pretty well.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2020, 04:23:59 pm by Mr X »

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« Reply #1443 on: May 25, 2020, 04:37:50 pm »
Btw your website is awesome, had a fun time reading some content on it, very interesting stuff.

Thank you for the kind words.  It is in bad need of editing and updating, and I hope to migrate it to an actual site, rather than an old Blogspot template. 

MattKimura

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« Reply #1444 on: May 25, 2020, 05:19:17 pm »
Hi I've always been really interested in this hack soley for the QoL and updated ways of playing an old game. However, some tell me that it's too game changing to consider using as an improvement over the original. Since you can select what patches to use, are there any patches that I should opt out of while keeping all other useful improvement hacks in tact? It would be a shame to walk away from this wonderful hack and not make use of any of the good fixes and QoL. I really don't want to have to play the vanilla game. It'll be my first playthrough and I don't mind not playing the vanilla game beforehand. Or is this hack so drastically different that I TRULY should just play the vanilla game instead? I'm really sure there are a set of useful hacks within this project I can make use of specifically.
Thanks for the awesome work!

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« Reply #1445 on: May 26, 2020, 02:48:56 am »
@Queue

Okay, after reading your explanation about Dispel over and over again (in addition to some videos on youtube, which ultimately didn't really help), I sort of understood your explanation regarding how Dispel works.

Some questions though (rather overdue):

Quote
A is being set to #01 (LDA = LoaD A), and then some actor data is being set to 1 via STA+X, while some is being set to 0 via STZ+X.

I don't quite understand some stuff.  Specifically, the difference between STZ and STA.  All I understood is that STA stores the value somewhere else, but how does that make any difference?  I mean, regarding your example, "STZ+X $E19B" is pointing to something too (9B), just like "STA+X $E1B7" is pointing to something (B7).

I also don't understand what you mean by:

Quote
...because the dispel magic spell doesn't simply set them to specific values, it does some math on those values which the event system cannot do. It would require some analysis to determine if it's safe to set them to fixed values (or some trial and error).

I don't mind spending time to do trials and errors, but I'm... lost to what specific I need to do.

I have a vague feeling that I need to do include the following (or some more) into an event, then have the inn event include the new event in it.

Code: [Select]
LDA #01
STA+X $E1B7 ' TIMER_ATTACK_BUFF_DURATION
STA+X $E1BA ' TIMER_ACCURACY_BUFF_DURATION
STA+X $E1BB ' TIMER_EVADE_BUFF_DURATION
STA+X $E1BC ' TIMER_DEFENSE_BUFF_DURATION
STZ+X $E19D ' SABER_SPELL_USES
STZ+X $E1B8 ' WALL_USE_COUNTER

But obviously, there's no way it's that simple (otherwise, you wouldn't have said that this was a complicated process).

I'm sorry for not understanding well, despite your careful explanation.



Also, you indicated that equipments are boring.  Wait, you said that for SD3, not SoM.  My mistake.

Still, I'm intending on modifying equipments so that some of them will have elements -- this results in both strength and weakness, which makes the equipments less boring (probably only works if [Bonus_Weapon_Damage] is ON).  It also differentiates enemy spells having effects on you.  The question is, which equipment should I give the elements to? -- Helmet or Armor? (Wrist already has SE protections)  Or should I mix things up?  What do you think?  For example, I'm thinking of making Magical Armor have Darkness element -- incentive to use less DEF stat armor on Dark Palace, despite that you can purchase higher level armor in Gold Isle.  I'd appreciate any suggestion to make the equipments NOT boring (stat, SE protection, element, bonus, etc)... without any of them being too OP, at least before the final dungeon.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2020, 05:35:59 am by hmsong »

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« Reply #1446 on: May 26, 2020, 03:17:30 pm »
LightBaneX, glad to hear it and appreciate that feedback, some good stuff to think about in there.

The difficulty just late game is probably 100% due to Items\Unique_Equipment; the defense increase from the post-Grand Palace Neko armor is extreme, and suddenly you can only deck out one character in it, so either 1 character can tank in Pure Land and the other two are paper, or you divide up the gear, and everyone's a bit fragile until you get some new equipment in Pure Land (which can be rare). My long-term goal here is to add an equipment hunt side quest just before Pure Land (it would just reward you with Pure Land equipment probably; there's no space in equipment data to add any new equipment), but that's not happening any time soon.

Equipment color directly uses the equipment icon colors; I saw it as a way to respect the artistic choices of the game's creators when adding that feature. For whatever reason, they just felt like pink was the go-to color for armor. The sprite's color distribution is less suited for Functional_Fashion than the boy's or girl's unfortunately; he gets an extra color dedicated to his hair and outlines. Skin and hair gets recolored by poisoned status, so is effectively off limits for Functional_Fashion. I did what I could to make the feature work where their sprites really weren't designed with palette changes in mind.

Kethinov made the little snowman; I agree, he's definitely a keeper.

I've tried to avoid diving into spell balance as I know I'll spend too much time on it, and because intentional balance is something I like playing against, not designing, but adjusting the defense spell sounds like a good idea.

Ultimately I do want to make no level 8 spell animations stop gameplay. I removed a hard-coded "if level 8 spell, stop gameplay" but most level 8 spell animations themselves actually take over the game and stop all other code until they finish. I'll either need to recreate them in the "normal" spell animation system (impossible to do so 1:1 in some cases), or disable them and just use the mid-level animations in their place. Herbal Boost (and Moon Energy which its adapted from) only has a single animation regardless of level. There are other spells that won't stop gameplay at level 8 (with Turbo_Mode On), but I don't recall the exact list.

Conceptually, I like that the boy is chumpier than his companions: he's the hero, but pretty unimpressive and relies on the girl and sprite to do the heavy lifting. I always prefer this in my stories over the main character that the universe revolves around. That said, for gameplay reasons, it would be nice if the boy had his own gimmick. Dual wielding is a no-go: there's not enough video memory space for a character to have two weapons (note that when a spell hits a character, their weapon vanishes; spell graphics temporarily overwrite weapon graphics since video memory space is so tight).



Mr X, I also tend to switch to the girl; she often has better armor, and a higher crit chance, and historically I did so to limit my ability to heal spam with her. The boy charging faster should be easy to set up, so I'll likely whip that up just to see if it does the trick; my concern is making him the only choice / making it where players would "fight" over who gets to control him. Charging up is "boring" so might be a good middle ground; that was my logic behind the level 9 weapon perk (a benefit, but not automatically the best choice).



MattKimura, it is entirely possible to use this patcher to only apply bug fixes and minor quality of life tweaks without drastically affecting gameplay. If you uncheck everything in the patcher (which take a while since there's so much now, yikes) and feed in a vanilla ROM and hit Apply, you'll get out exactly the same vanilla ROM.

Starting with the defaults (delete the "SoM Turbo.ini" file):
- uncheck:
-- [Combat]
-- [Magic]
-- [Items]
-- [Balance]
- in the [Quality_of_Life] section, uncheck EVERYTHING, then selectively re-enable:
-- Run_On_Trigger_Tiles
-- Run_After_Area_Change
-- No_Whip_Tile_Gather
-- New_Spell_Targeting_Controls
-- Rearguard_Sprite
-- Dont_Despawn_Chests_When_Full
-- ACT_Defaults
-- Sand_Ship_Guard_Pause
-- Boy_Dislikes_Nuts
-- Damage_Feedback
- in the [Text] section, uncheck:
-- VWF_Edition
-- Relocalized
- in the [Graphics] section, uncheck:
-- Turbo_HUD
-- Functional_Fashion
- in the [Miscellaneous] section, uncheck EVERYTHING, then selectively re-enable:
-- Enhanced_World_Map
-- Wiggly_Balloons

That should give you an experience that is effectively vanilla but with bugs fixed, and some pointless vanilla annoyances dealt with. I think I covered everything. I know that's a lot to go through but you only need to do it once.



hmsong, I'd suggest only putting elements on body equipment. Maybe 1 head or hand equipment with an element to make for an interesting choice (and maybe some body equipment without an element), but generally elements don't stack fairly (fire + ice = resistant to both, no weakness, if I recall correctly). My thought is to do like immunities are for hand equipment, where elements are on body equipment in a similar style.

I'd intended to do this someday for New_Game_Plus, since my eventual plan is to have no defense difference on armor in NG+ so you'd choose based on resists instead.

This took longer to type than expected so I've run out of time to explain your Dispel magic / SNES assembly questions. -_-

A quick response is:
LDA #00
STA+X $E19B
is the same as:
STZ+X $E19B

STZ is STore Zero, without needing to set A to #00. LDA sets A to a value. STA stores A somewhere.

Storing a value somewhere: in this case, "somewhere" is the player's data; you're storing a zero on their current buffs to clear said buffs, and storing 1 on the remaining time on their buff / debuff timers to clear them.

"include the following (or some more) into an event"
It definitely requires a little more than just what you pasted there. I think the previous Dispel post did mention everything, but that uncertainty is also part of why I've never tackled it.

I'll try and give a full response next time.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« Reply #1447 on: May 26, 2020, 07:45:31 pm »
Sigh.  It's sad that I lack the skills to create Dispel Inn.  Then again, if it's something that can make you say it's tough...

Oh, so you were planning on creating your own Equipment element?  Should I not do it then?  Or should I post my plans to see if you think you'll like it?  I'm open to suggestions.

My intention was to create equipment elements so that if you upgrade all your equipments in the next shop, you'd end up with one element (maybe 2 non-weakness-overlapping on rare occasions).  For example, people can have equipments that covers their elemental weakness by using the old equipments, but that would result in weaker DEF (and weaker M.DEF from elements that doesn't have anything to do with equip elements), which may be worse -- so players must make a choice.

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« Reply #1448 on: May 26, 2020, 08:16:29 pm »
Quote from: hmsong
It's sad that I lack the skills to create Dispel Inn.
Don't beat yourself up over it; we'll get it figured out eventually. It'll probably end up being a good way for you to get events (and character data) figured out.

Quote from: hmsong
Oh, so you were planning on creating your own Equipment element?  Should I not do it then?  Or should I post my plans to see if you think you'll like it?  I'm open to suggestions.
Go for it, I like your attention to detail and what you described as your intent (namely old equipment being the good element choice so that it may be worth using instead of new with higher defense). I have no idea how long it'd be before I'd even take a stab at this and your idea doesn't conflict with mine (I just wouldn't have to assign elements to armor and would just recommend yours for use with NG+).

I think my only request is if you can find one or two armors that with an added element can be a viable choice in Pure Land, that'd help Unique_Equipment be less painful in Pure Land.

Still not enough time to explain any more yet, sorry. Just wanted to encourage you to mess with the armor elements.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« Reply #1449 on: May 26, 2020, 09:45:38 pm »
Hmm.  Armor in Pure Land is difficult, because vanilla has only ONE armor with good enough DEF stat, and that's Vestguard (anything past that is final armor).  In addition, there are numerous enemies that use various element attacks (Griffin Hand uses Wind, Needlion uses Earth, Ice Thug uses Water, various bosses specialize in different elements, etc), so would element defense work in weak player's favor?  Elemental weakness may one-shot the weak player.  I can give some armors Light/Dark/Moon/Wood, but that won't actually change anything in practicality in Pure Land.  Hmm.

I can change things so that Vampire Cloak is available in Pure Land though (that may require me to redo the Equipment Tweak, but that's an easy job).  That still makes one character stuck with inferior armor (aka Battle Suit), but one is better than nothing.

I'm guessing it's better to make two patches, so that people have the option of using Elemental Armor without my Equipment Tweak (it's off by default after all).  Or should I make it into one patch?  What do you think?

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« Reply #1450 on: May 27, 2020, 02:31:03 am »
I wouldn't rush creating a patch about armors yet. It requires more thinking.

You don't necessary need high defensive armors to get through Pure Land also. I used Lucid Barrier and Balloon spell frequently coupled with Light Saber for that Balloom status to get my way through. Battlesuit, Vestguard, and the armor for the Girl in Golden City got me through this just fine. Heal when in trouble, use Angels Grails which are cheap by that point, restore your mp. In terms of defensw I was fine.

I also had Griffin Helm, Cocratice Cap, Gauntlet, Ninja Glove, and the ring from Pure Land that protects from Engulf and Snowman. The problem eith that set up eas tyat the Grand Palace wasn't doing shit to me then the Pure Land spiked in difficulty, instead I would have raised the difficulty in Grand Palace, only the Robot Boss was dealing actual damage from that area.

I will post more detailed thoughts about that later and debate that.

Also hmsong I thought Black Hex was gonna be an enemy only spell for those that used Evil Gate to distinguish it from the Hellfire?

Queue even if the Hero chargess faster I would still use the Gril she is just more fun overall to use being most balanced among the 3 characters with spells, stats, armors, weapons. But at least Randi would stand out with his fast weapon charging and increasing his charging even more once you have Speed Up at high enough level, so he becomes sort of a tech user for most part and would be distinguished in that aspect from the Girl and Sprite. Sort of like the Shadow version of the 3 characters you fight in Jochs cave, but a poor mans version of them.
While with Level 9 weapons charging even faster.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 02:37:48 am by Mr X »

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« Reply #1451 on: May 27, 2020, 03:50:44 am »
Okay, here's what I have so far (just my initial thought):

Quote
'[01: Bandanna]
'[02: Hair Ribbon]
'[03: Rabite Cap]
'[04: Head Gear]

'[16: Overalls]
'[17: Kung Fu Suit]
'[18: Midge Robe]
'[19: Chain Vest] -- earth
'[1A: Spiky Suit]
'[1B: Kung Fu Dress]

'[3E: Wristband]
'[2C: Elbow Pad]
'[2D: Power Wrist]
'[2E: Cobra Bracelet]

'------

'[05: Quill Cap] -- wind
'[06: Steel Cap]

'[1C: Fancy Overalls]

'[2F: Wolf's Band] -- luna

'------

'[07: Golden Tiara]
'[08: Raccoon Cap]

'[1D: Chest Guard] -- earth
'[1E: Golden Vest]

'[30: Silver Band]

'------

'[09: Quilted Hood]
'[0A: Tiger Cap]

'[1F: Ruby Vest] -- fire
'[20: Tiger Suit]
'[21: Tiger Bikini]

'[31: Golem Ring] -- earth
'[32: Frosty Ring] -- water

'------

'[0B: Circlet]
'[0C: Ruby Armet] -- fire
'[0D: Unicorn Helm] -- light
'[0E: Dragon Helm]
'[0F: Duck Helm]

'[22: Magical Armor] -- dark
'[23: Tortoise Mail] -- water
'[24: Flower Suit] -- dryad
'[25: Battle Suit]

'[33: Ivy Amulet]
'[34: Gold Bracelet]
'[35: Shield Ring]
'[36: Lazuri Ring] -- luna (this is specifically to give weakness against Joch's cave and Aegagropilon, if players don't think things through)

'------

'[10: Needle Helm]
'[11: Cockatrice Cap] -- earth
'[12: Amulet Helm]
'[13: Griffin Helm] -- wind
'[14: Faerie Crown]

'[26: Vestguard]
'[27: Vampire Cape] -- dark
'[28: Power Suit]
'[29: Faerie Cloak] -- light

'[2B: Faerie's Ring]
'[37: Guardian Ring] --  dryad (this may be worth grinding for, despite worse than Gauntlet and Ninja Gloves, since Popoi can use Burst without penalty)
'[38: Gauntlet]
'[39: Ninja Gloves]
'[3A: Dragon Ring]
'[3B: Watcher Ring]
'[3C: Imp's Ring]
'[3D: Amulet Ring]

As you can see, I divided them up for easier viewing.  I specifically avoided giving Ivy Amulet the Dryad element, because that would curbstomp Aegagropilon.  The problem is, Unicorn Helm + Magical Armor cover each other's weakness (Ruby Armet + Tortoise Mail does that too, but fire/water isn't such a big deal in that point of game).  Then again, they lack Dragon Helm/Duck Helm/Battle Suit's pure DEF powers, so maybe that would be acceptable.

I sure would like some suggestions.

Hmm.  Upon further testing, it doesn't seem like equipping Dryad equipment negates Health Cost of Burst.  Any way you can fix that?



@Mr X

Black Hex was indeed first meant to be an enemy-only spell.  However, I changed my mind, so that players can see the Evil Gate animation (esp the rare Shadow Zero cameo for Lv9).  Indeed, Hellfire has Evil Gate animation, so Black Hex may not be necessary.  It's just that Hellfire is so unbelievably powerful against any bosses (4-hit kill), because there's almost no fire-element bosses (2 in Pure Land, and that's it).  It just made most attack spells unnecessary against bosses (esp with things like Faerie Coconuts available, not to mention Magic Absorb if you enabled Early Luna).  Also, I wanted early access to Dispel Magic, which had a positive side effect of grinding Salamando magic easier (you don't have to search for enemies).

But Hellfire is one helluva unique spell (it even has an awesome name), so I can see why many people would prefer that over Black Hex.  That's probably why Black Hex is OFF by default.

Btw, I main Randi (just like most people), because he's easy to use against normal monsters, and I can move around when Primm/Popoi are busy with spells.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 08:06:22 am by hmsong »

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« Reply #1452 on: May 27, 2020, 05:57:45 am »
One way I was thinking is scaling down all enemies and changing the equipment entirely, offering builds for all 3 characters.

Crit Build, Physical Build, Defensive Build, Balanced, Resistance Build, rings that would offer a slight bonus to a spirit in damage, basically almost no equipment being useless (therefore story wise making all these Kingdoms and towns equally important by having all these unique equipment), making use constantly of the buy and sell feature the game offers buying what you currently need and selling what you currently don't need.

Or at least do something like that for the part of the game from Empire and onwards where the balance totally shifts. Scale down enemies and equipment defenses Starting from Southtown but offer bonuses to them. Equipment with a slight resistance to an element but lowers cast time for example etc. I think that would make the gameplay a lot more engaging and think how you wanna build a character, but this will probably take a long time to implement. And have monsters be more agressive with spells and maybe have some use elemental physical attacks so it would be worth using for.

That would be one way.

But yeah I am thinking here in long term, not something to do within a day.

Quote
Black Hex was indeed first meant to be an enemy-only spell.  However, I changed my mind, so that players can see the Evil Gate animation (esp the rare Shadow Zero cameo for Lv9).  Indeed, Hellfire has Evil Gate animation, so Black Hex may not be necessary.  It's just that Hellfire is so unbelievably powerful against any bosses (4-hit kill), because there's almost no fire-element bosses (2 in Pure Land, and that's it).  It just made most attack spells unnecessary against bosses (esp with things like Faerie Coconuts available, not to mention Magic Absorb if you enabled Early Luna).  Also, I wanted early access to Dispel Magic, which had a positive side effect of grinding Salamando magic easier (you don't have to search for enemies).

But Hellfire is one helluva unique spell (it even has an awesome name), so I can see why many people would prefer that over Black Hex.  That's probably why Black Hex is OFF by default.

Black Hex is also op tho lowering all stats so it's a toss up between the two. Both are op spells at the hands of the players both would need an equally important nerf, imo. Lowering everything to monsters would mean you can walk through them with no worries.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« Reply #1453 on: May 27, 2020, 07:44:17 am »
Mr X

It feels like what you're suggesting is better fit for NG+.  I'm only trying to incorporate elements into equipments, for more "options" during the regular gameplay.  Thanks for your idea though.

I guess Black Hex can be seen as OP, if seen on paper.  But in practice, all it lowers is Strength and Def (Acc and Eva don't matter much).  And all of Black Hex's SEs are nowhere near powerful as humble Balloon or Engulf (stun SEs are overwhelmingly better than [Slow + Confuse + Poison]).  And vanilla Petrify is just ridiculous (thank god Queue for the nerf).

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« Reply #1454 on: May 27, 2020, 08:26:18 am »
Mr X

It feels like what you're suggesting is better fit for NG+.  I'm only trying to incorporate elements into equipments, for more "options" during the regular gameplay.  Thanks for your idea though.

I guess Black Hex can be seen as OP, if seen on paper.  But in practice, all it lowers is Strength and Def (Acc and Eva don't matter much).  And all of Black Hex's SEs are nowhere near powerful as humble Balloon or Engulf (stun SEs are overwhelmingly better than [Slow + Confuse + Poison]).  And vanilla Petrify is just ridiculous (thank god Queue for the nerf).

Ok fair. Was thinking that it would also lower magic defense and magic effectiveness like the black curse from sd3, my bad.

Also why don't accuracy and evasion not matter? Is it because of how it's scaled?

May 27, 2020, 08:46:17 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
As for Equipment not sure what else I can think off, the game is already as off balance as it is on the mid/endgame parts of the game, due to the poor scaling rhe original game did.

Even if you give equipment elemental resistance it wont matter much, let's say you give Magical Armor dark element resistance even slightly the dark palace is already an easy enough area, after some farming and you gain a few levels you will see how you breeze through the area. Same for the Gold Tower, only Aegagropilon seems to be threatening enough then the rest of the Grand Palace a breeze with the op equipment available to farm.

Scaling down the equipment means Pure Land gonna be off balance, scale the equipment up and the Grand Palace still remaind a joke. There is really no good way to to think of giving armors elements just for the sake of giving it because of the problems from the original game and the broken enemy scaling.

Hence why I think needs a lot of time to think through all that.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 08:52:04 am by Mr X »

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« Reply #1455 on: May 27, 2020, 10:12:36 pm »
Mr X

I just don't see Acc/Eva making much difference.  I'm just not noticing it much in a gameplay (but it probably has effect in subtle way).

The original SoM is pretty easy.  There's not much I can do to make the "balance" work, equipment or not.  The purpose of my equipment element is to simply use the not-used-mechanic, in a hopefully-better-experience way.  If you want to rebalance, then you can use kethinov/Queue's Harder Monster.

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« Reply #1456 on: May 28, 2020, 01:07:26 am »
Mr X

I just don't see Acc/Eva making much difference.  I'm just not noticing it much in a gameplay (but it probably has effect in subtle way).

The original SoM is pretty easy.  There's not much I can do to make the "balance" work, equipment or not.  The purpose of my equipment element is to simply use the not-used-mechanic, in a hopefully-better-experience way.  If you want to rebalance, then you can use kethinov/Queue's Harder Monster.

My point is the elemental armors wouldn't be much more useful than they are now with the current setting of the game.

zeteginara

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« Reply #1457 on: May 28, 2020, 04:21:20 pm »
Does anyone know where I can get the MSU soundtrack of the original SPC files?  I know you can't post it publicly as it contains copyrighted tracks, but I have the original SoM on cartridge.  Can someone PM me?

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« Reply #1458 on: May 29, 2020, 12:19:07 am »
@Mr X

I guess.  Still, it's a fun gimmick to add.  Just for the sake of enabling what was disabled.  In any case, I don't think I'm making things worse.  In fact, I think it would make the game slightly more fun (maybe... hopefully).  I'm simply doing what I can to enhance the game, however little it may be.



@zeteginara

C'mon.  Had you read the attached document, you'd see the link to the MSU music files.



@Queue

I haven't really used [Unique_Equipment], so I'm not sure, but does this only limit the equipments you can buy, or does this apply to monster equipments?

In any case, you may want to put this in [Unique_Equipment], at least as a sub-option:

Code: [Select]
@OFF $D03B44 'Ghost Rare Drop
RAW 27 '(Imp Ring --> Vampire Cape)

IF [Mana_Fortress_Rarity_Swap]
@OFF $D03BCB 'Fiend Head Rare Drop
RAW 3C '(Vampire Cape --> Imp Ring)
ENDIF
IFNOT [Mana_Fortress_Rarity_Swap]
@OFF $D03BCA 'Fiend Head Common Drop
RAW 3C '(Vampire Cape --> Imp Ring)
ENDIF

I thought about putting this in my Equipment Tweaks, but since that's off by default, I felt it would better for people who want to use Unique Equipment, since Pure Land really is harsh without proper equipment, esp armor.  Of course, I don't have any problem putting the Ghost/Fiend Head change in my Equipment Tweak, if you decide that would a better idea.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2020, 01:07:26 am by hmsong »

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200524
« Reply #1459 on: May 29, 2020, 02:49:25 am »
Quote from: zeteginara
Does anyone know where I can get the MSU soundtrack of the original SPC files?  I know you can't post it publicly as it contains copyrighted tracks, but I have the original SoM on cartridge.
If you have the 2018 Remaster version, here's a set of utilities and automation script that can convert the included SNES soundtrack to MSU-1's PCM format with loop points:
https://filebin.net/7spaiz2xfys6b2i1/SoM_HD_to_MSU-1.200122.zip
It's hopefully straight-forward to use, but don't hesitate to ask questions.



Mr X, in describing different possible equipment builds, you basically described my ideal for basically any game with an inventory system: options, all viable, for how you want to specialize your characters. With how few pieces of equipment SoM has though, definitely hard to pull off within its constraints. Not something that's going to be practical without a lot of planning then experimenting.



hmsong, what I have in mind for NG+ is for every chest piece to have an element. While I was considering making said element inactive on a normal run, and only function on NG+, it may be possible to select elements that would have a neutral effect in most of a first play through at the time you get them, with the exceptions being ones where the previous piece is viable in the next area if the elemental defense bonus matches the most dangerous enemy attacks. I suspect this would require mapping out what element the damage players take at various parts of the game, what armor is relevant, and then picking elements that fit.

I'm not interested in moving the Vampire Cape out of the Mana Fortress: I see it as important that each character gets their final body equipment there, at least. What I'm hoping is that there's some armor from just before Pure Land, that when given the right element(s), would provide enough survivability for a second character when Unique_Equipment restrictions are in play. A beneficial side effect would be if the right element choice would make the armor WORSE in the Grand Palace.