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### Author Topic: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200810  (Read 331659 times)

#### kethinov

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##### Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #540 on: September 30, 2019, 10:57:26 am »
@kethinov

I tried the new Later Midge Mallet patch.  It seems I can't get the Midge Mallet at all now (at least, not right after getting the Wind Drum).  I even dripped off King Matango, and checked again, but nope.  Can you check?

lol this is what I get for only testing the first half of it. I haven't made it far enough in my playtest yet to test the other side of it. When I get there, I'll fix it (again / for real).

#### zoolgremlin

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##### Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #541 on: September 30, 2019, 11:27:56 am »
FUN FACT:
(well, it's fun to me, but I'm a weirdo like that...)

Bank 0x00, which contains among other things, the long algorithm for calculating weapon damage, and the monster/character Stat loading functions, has quite a few patched-out bytes of code.  Those bytes contain the value 0xEA, which is the OpCode for NOP (No Operation) in 65816 assembly.  It'd be quite an undertaking, but there may be opportunities there to condense the code in Bank 0x00, or use the NOP'd bytes to do other things inside of the code already there, for example.  Although, you may all know this already.  EDIT:  Turns out Bank 0x00 needs most if not all of those NOPs, due to the number of free cycles needed for certain operations.  Queue just set me straight on this, so condensing the code is probably NOT an option.  Shame on me...

I've used a dummied-out space myself in one instance... to double the Mana Seed Bonus granted to WeaponAttackPower, if a Hit% check is passed.

Next table coming up in my Folder, when I finally start it, will be to do with Shops.  I'd better check my notes on that shortly...
« Last Edit: October 03, 2019, 12:29:45 am by zoolgremlin »
MASTER LINK:  Secret of Mana Information (Vanilla)

"Yes, the Author is indeed a horse!"  <zool>

#### Queue

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• Posts: 413
##### Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #542 on: September 30, 2019, 05:19:02 pm »
Mr X, like zoolgremlin suggested, I think the input screwiness you found is related to Quality_of_Life\Run_After_Area_Change; it causes quite a few little issues. If you discover that's not the case let me know, but that one's on my list of stuff to get reviewed for improvement.

I assume regarding Moon Energy you're pointing out how huge of a damage bonus it is where it makes other buffs unnecessary?

Regarding undead enemies getting special cased on resists, it's certainly possible. In vanilla, I think the only code that actually makes a weakness affect damage is in the spell functions where a weakness becomes a 2x multiplier on incoming damage. If you wanted analyzer to not show the salamando undead enemy as being weak to undine, that'd get more complicated, and / or if you wanted the undead enemy to literally not be weak to undine (undine not set in their weakness flags), same deal, but if you just wanted spell immunities / weaknesses / non-weaknesses to use those rules it wouldn't be too difficult.

zoolgremlin, where are you seeing lots of NOPs in bank 0x00? If it's ~4 or ~8 between code like STA $004203 and LDA$004217, those aren't dummied out code, they're intentional delays to wait on the SNES's multiplication / division. Multiplication needs 8 cycles (3 NOPs + the result read) and division 16 cycles (7 NOPs + the result read) to completely finish (there are circumstances where an early read is valid, but I won't get into that here). While you can do work between starting a multiply / divide and reading the result, there does need to be time wasted for the result to be calculated so there has to be something between the write that starts them and the read of the results (at least on real hardware and in more accurate emulators).

hmsong, all enemies have a weapon, and some have two that they switch between, though most don't have a visible graphic. The issue with transforming an enemy into a mimic is if their weapon did have a visible graphic, it'd still be visible even after they turned into a mimic. So an Ice Thug holding a little fork would turn into a mimic with a little fork floating beside it. Most of an enemy's attack damage comes from their weapon instead of their base stats, if I recall correctly.

Colors for spell stuff is really annoying. It's almost always a 1-byte number that indicates which palette to use (and I think they're generally 5-color palettes), but said numbers are sort've all over the place. The spell icons are defined at the end of bank 0x18: starting at $D8FD7E, each spell is 2 bytes starting there with Earth Slide, where the first byte is the icon number and the second is the palette number. Colors for spell animations is worse: sometimes it's the first byte per group of 8 bytes in the spell data for animations (in your Grave Flare example, the "89" at the start of 6 of the lines is the palette number), but some animations don't use that value and instead have hardcoded palette numbers in their animations (which are primarily but not entirely in bank 0x11). Look at the annotated spell data for Firenado (can search for$D02DE0 in the ZPS); it's a lot to take in, but may give you more info to go on.

I don't currently plan to let Inferno Barrier also cast Blaze Wall; merging the two behaviors just seems to be too complicated to make work sensibly. Inferno Barrier's spell function is set up to be extensible to apply other status effects in the future (it doesn't actually currently, but it's easy for me to add), so for example, it could be set up as a "Medusa Skin" buff that could be given to Basilisks that they cast on themselves and / or allies where meleeing them would petrify the attacker, etc. Tying in an offensive spell would currently require hardcoding the offensive spell behavior. I did give it some consideration though.

One issue with swapping a detrimental spell and a beneficial spell is the enemies won't automatically change who they target; so if Fire Bouquet becomes Speed Up, enemies who originally cast Fire Bouquet on the players will instead cast Speed Up on the players. You'll have to find the spell cast command in their AI and change the target (and if changing from beneficial to detrimental, possibly also add AI code so they locate a target before casting). The spell target value in spell data affects who the players can target; enemies ignore it.

The spell names being in ALL CAPS means you have Text\Proper-caser Off, but it does make sense for Relocalized to also trigger Proper-caser behavior even without Proper-caser, so I'll change that.

Is [Enemy_Type_And_Element_Changes] an okay name? I've been trying to avoid using non-text characters in feature names (- hyphen has been the only exception). Added the "Intended for use with..." note to the [Alternate_*_List] descriptions.

kethinov, a Dryad Saber sounds neat. Probably a fair bit of work but maybe I'm overthinking it. Vanilla doesn't provide for a Dryad-specific saber spell function, but it doesn't take much code in the vanilla scheme to add one. More complicated might be working out the specifics of having it mesh with the Mana Magic logic, but I expect in the sprite's Mana Magic spell function it could be changed to check if the Dryad Saber is applied and use that as the basis for overwriting with Mana Magic. Probably even enough space by repurposing the girl's Mana Magic spell function to fit whatever new code is needed.

I don't think it makes sense to try and work out a scenario where both a Dryad Saber and Manaburn could coexist. It's not unthinkable to have patches be mutually exclusive.

I hadn't considered that someone would want vanilla Evil Gate and Firenado at the same time. Seems crazy to me but whatever, I'll support that combination. Ignoring that the first attempt at a generic Evil Gate function failed (not actually sure what I messed up on as it worked during testing, so I must've botched something when rewriting some of it), a generic form is still my plan if both More Useful Evil Gate and Firenado are On at the same time since it's ~73 bytes of waste otherwise, plus more if someone wants to add a third element variant, etc. And to that end, More Useful Evil Gate and Firenado both being on by default make the generic form the default; if in the future the Map Display Settings table ends up fully populated, I simply wouldn't support some mixed application of the three (something would win out and force the others On/Off to avoid the overlap).

I'm more interested in knowing your thoughts on removing the multi-target penalty so that use on normal enemies has more value (at its exorbitant mana cost) and / or overhauling the damage logic so that level 0 isn't functionally the same as level 8 once you hit bosses with enough health. My initial thought is a damage cap based on spell level so that the mana cost can be brought back down; in my play testing over the past couple days where I had boss health drastically pumped up, I found it unusable at 12 mana and wound up using Fire Bouquet, Acid Storm and sacrificial Burst for spell damage more than anything. I also wound up fast-forwarding during level 8 Burst spell animations, which is a bad sign. -_- Gave myself a new longterm goal of removing the full-pause from spell animations that have them (definitely one of the things I hate in Trials of Mana is the spell animations stopping the game).

I share hmsong's opinion that worrying about missable monsters when changing transform / shape shifter results will lead to less worthwhile transform / shape shifter results.

SFX Channel Limit is Off by default due to an abundance of caution; I don't know exactly how it affects the resulting audio, and my preference is to not lose any sound effects (though I don't even know if that happens with it applied; just guessing based on supposedly limiting sound effects to 3 channels). Considering that testing with it on, I still note music channels cutting out and don't notice any missing sound effects, I'm not even clear what it's managing to do.

And finally, thanks for the bug reports.

The Functional Fashion palette issues are known except for possibly the no starting equipment interaction (if you mean the cutscene girl appearance, that won't be "fixed" because that girl isn't the real girl, and applying the real girl's palette to the fake cutscene girl is way too much work for too little result, likewise with any other fake cutscene versions of the playable characters).

Fixing the poison palette is on my to-do list, but I also plan to optimize it so it's only replacing the character's flesh and hair colors, instead of their entire palette like it currently does.

Fixing the stamina blink will likely happen but is low priority, because that's non-default configuration, and because at a cursory glance it looked like a difficult fix.

The accidental hotkey triggering when leaving menus, etc. should be side effects of Run_After_Area_Change, and will hopefully be improved.

As for the gather party event, which edge of the screen are the party members stuck at (I assume that's what's happening). To clarify, you have Bug_Fixes\Gather_Party_Fix On? I should have fixed it for the left screen edge, so are you describing it occurring at the top edge? I may not need a save state if the circumstances match my hypothesis (top screen edge, since in that case I know what I'm looking for) but conversely, having one wouldn't hurt (using one is how I figured out the details to fix it for the left edge). Ideally, if the save state is made with Safe_Save_State On, and the game currently hard paused, or alternatively, along with a Turbo INI with the exact same settings set as were in use during the save state, but I can generally cope regardless.

As for what I've been up to, over the weekend I got through analyzing all 1024 doors. My findings are that only 21 are unused (with one, 0x0BF already claimed for Farmable_Sword_Orb), with some arguably having a "natural" (i.e. matango cave pitfall trap) purpose that removes them from availability for generic reuse (by which count I'd say there are ~10 unused with the others used to recreate cut content). Also pretty confident in some conclusions on cut content from the analysis:
- the wind palace had preliminary work done on a dungeon; any areas made for it were repurposed and reassigned to the earth palace dungeon
- the lighthouse interior had preliminary work moved to the light palace on gold isle
- the matango cave was reworked at least a little; it has an unimplemented pitfall trap and probably had another room that was scrapped
- there's an unused door that dumps you out in the empire castle moat; this could be a red herring but it's fun to imagine what it might have been for
- there was possibly plans for another intro cutscene scene; no map data exists, but an unused door between two other intro cutscene doors pointing to an empty map suggests they kept space for one
- the grand palace probably had one more room at some point
- some doors were simplified (i.e. animations removed) so that 2+ wide doors could share a single door table entry

All of that was to find a door or doors I could use to make the Goblin Village be a connection to the east side of Gaia's Navel. I can imagine using as few as 1, or as many as 3. Given how few unused doors there are I may opt for the 1-door approach. Next I need to give Gaia's Navel tidy map treatment to prepare for the addition of a trigger tile, probably far east under the log bridge. Then I need to hook my Goblin Village exit up to an event and set up the new west exit door. And find space in the trigger array for stuff. I'll probably want to make combat in the village functional and get time of day functional there. Oof, this is going to be a handful.

#### hmsong

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 448
##### Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #543 on: September 30, 2019, 07:02:25 pm »
@Queue

Hmm.  I succeeded in changing the colors of spell menu color (well, I just chose among the choices).  Spell animation on the other hand... damn, I'm changing things here and there, but it's so weird.  Damn it.  Also, I'm trying to change the name of the spells (Grave Flare), but I don't know how.  I'm looking at Mud Saber and Inferno Barrier:

Code: [Select]
@OFF $CA0806ADR.16 SSE.Text.Extended.White.3.1@OFF SSE.Text.Extended.White.3.1TEXT ^M u^ d^ _ ^S a^ b^ e^ r^ \end'[Spell Name 11: BLAZE WALL]@OFF$CA0822ADR.16 SSE.Text.Extended.White.3.3@OFF SSE.Text.Extended.White.3.3TEXT ^I n^ f^ e^ r^ n^ o^ _ ^B a^ r^ r^ i^ e^ r^ \0
But I'm kinda confused.  White3.1/3.3 thing?  I assume it's some sort of short-cut for later usage.  Also, what do you use at the end? "\end" or "\0"?

So I have to find each enemies who use Fire Bouquet/Speed Up, and change their target for the spells?  Jeez, how am I suppose to know which code is which?  I already know which enemies, but I don't know the address/value for those targetting thing.  If you can tell me which code is for the targetting system for Chess Knight, Ghoul, Imp, Spikey Tiger, and Mech Rider (s), then I'll edit the numbers.

[Enemy_Type_And_Element_Changes] works great.  Please use that.

Thank you.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2019, 07:38:07 pm by hmsong »

#### Queue

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 413
##### Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #544 on: September 30, 2019, 08:22:25 pm »
SSE.Text.Extended.* are the spell names for the 20 extended spell slots. Because I made Stone_Saber_-_NPC_Version but it just uses the vanilla Stone Saber name, that meant its related extended spell (White.3.1) name slot was unused so I could use it for Mud Saber. Same idea for Blaze_Wall_-_NPC_Version (White.3.3) and Inferno Barrier, and for Evil_Gate_-_NPC_Version (Black.4.2) and Shadow Saber. I haven't thought of a way to make changing normal spell names easy.

For "TEXT" lines, use \0 to define the end of the text. \end or 00 also work, but \end is intended for \event data, and 00 is the RAW data equivalent. All 3 just produce a 0x00 byte in the ROM, but the idea is to use the global constant that describes the purpose of the byte. \0 is meant to mimic the standard null-terminator syntax seen in C strings (et al.). I only added the \0 define recently, hence why I had been using \end before. I went through and changed them all to \0 when I added it.

Finding the addresses for the specific enemy's AI and then the spell cast commands (and in this case, the targeting commands just before the spell cast commands) is the hard part. I don't happen to have the right data in front of me at the moment. Normal enemy AI is in bank 0x10, and Spikey Tiger and Mech Rider boss AI is probably in bank 0x02, and jebus why do I know that off the top of my head.

#### hmsong

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 448
##### Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #545 on: September 30, 2019, 09:09:40 pm »
@Queue

Quote
Normal enemy AI is in bank 0x10, and Spikey Tiger and Mech Rider boss AI is probably in bank 0x02, and jebus why do I know that off the top of my head.

Because you are a guru.

Here's what I have for the names then:

Code: [Select]
'[Spell Name 04: Grave Flare]@OFF $CA0808ADR.16 SSE.Text.Extended.White.2.1@OFF SSE.Text.Extended.White.2.1TEXT ^G r^ a^ v^ e^ _ ^F l^ a^ r^ e^ \0'[Spell Name 10: Quick] <-- Relocalized name for Speed Up@OFF$CA0820ADR.16 SSE.Text.Extended.White.2.2@OFF SSE.Text.Extended.White.2.2TEXT ^Q u^ i^ c^ k^ \0
Will that work?  Or does this mess with another thing?  I'm not entirely sure...

EDIT: Hmm.  Grave Flare works (although still in CAPS), but Quick does not.  All I get is "oo".  What am I doing wrong now?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2019, 09:20:26 pm by hmsong »

#### Queue

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 413
##### Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #546 on: September 30, 2019, 09:43:00 pm »
White.2.1 and White.2.2 are currently unused, so that works for now. The text is all caps because you have Text\Proper-caser Off. As of my next release, Proper-caser OR Relocalized will both cause Proper-caser-like behavior for spell names, but for now, just turn on Proper-caser to test. Just looking at what you have there, I'm not sure what could be going wrong with Quick... it looks correct... hmm...

I'd prefer to figure out why manually assigning a new Quick name to that spell isn't working right before explaining how to make it swap the spell names. I don't see anything wrong with what you have there though, which is confusing.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2019, 09:52:02 pm by Queue »

#### zoolgremlin

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##### Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #547 on: September 30, 2019, 11:55:00 pm »
Quote
Queue:  zoolgremlin, where are you seeing lots of NOPs in bank 0x00?

Between $C052A3 and$C052A5 is the space I was referring to.  Hadn't yet memorized that the [Multiplicand A] and [Multiplier B] bit needed 8 cycles to completely finish, but what I did was this:

'Multiplies ManaSeedBonus by 2, if the attack is calculated to be a stronger one.
'(Cryptic comment, I know... ^_^')

@OFF $C0529F ASL @OFF$C052A0
Code: [Select]
@OFF $C0529FASL ' *2STA$004203 ' <- this starts the multiplicationNOP ' 2 cyclesNOP ' 2 cyclesREP #20 ' 3 cyclesLDA $004216 ' at least 2 cycles to decode the instruction before this gets the result So vanilla actually has 11 (or even 13? I forget if 24-bit address LDA takes a full 4 cycles to decode; my rule of thumb has been to play it safe and assume only 2 in case of changing code to a direct page load) cycles and yours still has 9 (or maybe 11). Vanilla code is overly conservative and always puts at least 8 cycles between multiplication start and result read, so there's almost always a little wiggle room to move an instruction to before the store that triggers the multiply (or divide, where vanilla code always has at least 16 cycles). If you know the maximum value written to$004202, you could in theory wait fewer than 8 cycles before the read from $004216 under some circumstance on real hardware, but you risk making fragile code (easy to forget the maximum allowed multiplicand when reading result early, etc.) or hitting emulation bugs if doing so (though most emulators go the opposite direction of not needing any delay). Also note that you don't have to specify the address for every instruction (just commenting on what you posted, if you knew this, disregard). Just to make sure credit's given where it's due, the debug logging is zhaDe's work, I just gave it a tiny polish and made a mechanism to actually turn it on (the only way previously would've been modifying the ZPS_Patcher executable to enable it). I figured if anyone else was going to start writing ZPS code, it'd help if parsing or assembly errors were displayed somewhere, even if they don't do a great job of specifying where in the ZPS the mistake is; before, most failures were just silent and resulted in garbage being written to the output ROM. Most of my careful version control was so I could compare two output ROMs and check for garbage, like a bunch of 00s where I expect a jump instruction. « Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 01:49:43 am by Queue » #### zoolgremlin • RHDN Patreon Supporter! • Full Member • Posts: 137 • Steam Profile Name: keeperofcastlegreydusk ##### Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927 « Reply #549 on: October 01, 2019, 02:16:50 am » @Queue Thanks for your reply, was expecting I would have to wait until tomorrow at least, how nice... Very interesting explanation, so I was right for the wrong reason, essentially... what a shock! Wouldn't be the first time I've been that, harhar... Quote Queue: Also note that you don't have to specify the address for every instruction (just commenting on what you posted, if you knew this, disregard). I think the extra @OFF was a relic of that earlier time, when I was trying to write new code/script into the ZPS, and coming a cropper with Notepad/Wordpad over and over again. So I just copy/pasted the whole thing with Programmer's Notepad. Having said that, though, I'm new to this. So I didn't yet fully understand that an @OFF is not needed for every assembly instruction. I knew at least that you can put NOP repeatedly without putting @OFF everytime. I like to call it NOPE because it's a great way to eliminate ridiculous code, but I'm still looking for other places where that can be done without issues. ('What's that, Squareheads? You wanna divide Critical% by 2 for Ranged weapons?! NOPE, NOPE, NOPE!! Get the s*** outta here... ) I have a shortlist of tweaks in a separate file, just haven't put it on Google Drive yet. Tested it in the ZPS successfully, but haven't transferred any Comments to my shortlist to explain my "reasoning". I may have to remove the most offensive parts of those before putting them in... MASTER LINK: Secret of Mana Information (Vanilla) "Yes, the Author is indeed a horse!" <zool> #### hmsong • Sr. Member • Posts: 448 ##### Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927 « Reply #550 on: October 01, 2019, 06:50:38 am » @Queue Yeah, I tried numerous things with the names, like "^Q u^ i^ c^ k^ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ \0", but nope. Still getting "oo". I don't know if you're willing, but can you try it yourself and see? It's just too strange for one thing to work, and the other not. Quote Finding the addresses for the specific enemy's AI and then the spell cast commands (and in this case, the targeting commands just before the spell cast commands) is the hard part. I don't happen to have the right data in front of me at the moment. Normal enemy AI is in bank 0x10, and Spikey Tiger and Mech Rider boss AI is probably in bank 0x02, and jebus why do I know that off the top of my head. 0x01 and 0x02 each have 65565 addresses... there's no way I can test each of them. Is there a better and more efficient way of finding out the enemy behavior codes? Maybe you can start me off somewhere? For example, "0x012345 is the address for Silktail targetting you with Acid Rain". Quote (in your Grave Flare example, the "89" at the start of 6 of the lines is the palette number) I tried changing that 89s to numerous different numbers (from different spells, such as Freeze's 82). It didn't change the colors of the animation (or do anything, from what I can tell). I need help. Also, could you make Burst (the self-destructive one) pierce Wall? As far as I know, Dispel Magic is the only spell that does that, but I feel like the new Burst doing that is kind of necessary, and fitting. I'll update the [Enemy_Type_And_Element_Changes] list soon. I increased # of Fire, Air, Light, and Luna element enemies (also changed types of a few). There were 4 or less enemies of those elements. I increased those to at least 6, while mostly decreasing Dark and non-elemental. I'm also updating the boss elements (Mana Beast is FF instead of Dryad element, which is actually from Kethinov's Useful Evil Gate patch that may no longer be used). October 01, 2019, 09:24:43 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.) @Queue Okay, my updates: [Enemy_Type_And_Element_Changes] (generally increases the # of Sylphid, Salamando, Luna, and Lumina enemies): Eye Spy (Water --> None) Blat (None --> Air) Chess Knight (Dryad --> Luna) Robin Foot (None --> Fire) Tomato Man (Fire --> None) Mystic Book (None --> Light) Mimic Box (Plant/Fish --> Dragon) Ghost (Dark --> Light) Weepy Eye (Plant/Fish --> Insect/Solid) Imp (Dark --> Fire) Metal Crab (None --> Air) Eggplant Man (None --> Light) Captain Duck (None --> Fire) Wolf Lord (Dark --> Luna) Mantis Ant (Earth --> None) Wall Face (Air --> Earth) Jabberwocky (Slime/Lizard --> Dragon) Snap Dragon (Dragon --> Slime/Lizard) Metal Mantis (None --> Air) Lime Slime (Water --> Dark) Hydra (Slime/Lizard --> Dragon) Hexas (None --> Luna) <-- This may conflict with Useful Evil Gate patch. Dragon Worm (Dragon --> Slime/Lizard) Mana Beast (None --> All element) <-- This is the same as Useful Evil Gate patch. Code: [Select] ' Eye Spy (Water --> None)@OFF$D01CDARAW 00' Blat (None --> Air)@OFF $D01D32RAW 02' Chess Knight (Dryad --> Luna)@OFF$D01EE4RAW 40' Robin Foot (None --> Fire)@OFF $D01F3BRAW 08' Tomato Man (Fire --> None)@OFF$D01FE9RAW 00' Mystic Book (None --> Light)@OFF $D02006RAW 20' Mimic Box (Plant/Fish --> Dragon)@OFF$D02127RAW 80' Ghost (Dark --> Light)@OFF $D0217FRAW 20' Weepy Eye (Plant/Fish --> Insect/Solid)@OFF$D021D5RAW 04' Imp (Dark --> Fire)@OFF $D0224ARAW 08' Metal Crab (None --> Air)@OFF$D022F8RAW 02' Eggplant Man (None --> Light)@OFF $D0234FRAW 20' Captain Duck (None --> Fire)@OFF$D0236CRAW 08' Wolf Lord (Dark --> Luna)@OFF $D0251FRAW 40' Mantis Ant (Earth --> None)@OFF$D025EARAW 00' Wall Face (Air --> Earth)@OFF $D02607RAW 01' Jabberwocky (Slime/Lizard --> Dragon)@OFF$D0267ARAW 80' Snap Dragon (Dragon --> Slime/Lizard)@OFF $D026D1RAW 10' Metal Mantis (None --> Air)@OFF$D02746RAW 02' Lime Slime (Water --> Dark)@OFF $D02811RAW 10' Hydra (Slime/Lizard --> Dragon)@OFF$D02867RAW 80' Hexas (None --> Luna)@OFF $D028A2RAW 40' Dragon Worm (Dragon --> Slime/Lizard)@OFF$D029FDRAW 10' Mana Beast (None --> All element)@OFF $D02A72RAW FF In addition, update to [Alternate_Transform_List], due to the other update: Rabite --> Ma Goblin Mushboom --> Dark Funk Lullabud --> Zombie Kid Goblin --> Nemesis Owl Green Drop --> Pumpkin Bomb Water Thug --> Mimic Box Pebbler --> Weepy Eye Pumpkin Bomb --> Shellblast Code: [Select] ' Rabite --> Ma Goblin (aka Goblin Guard)@OFF$C8E5F3RAW 0E' Mushboom --> Dark Funk@OFF $C8E5F4RAW 0F' Lullabud --> Zombie@OFF$C8E5F5RAW 12' Kid Goblin --> Nemesis Owl@OFF $C8E5F6RAW 15' Green Drop --> Pumpkin Bomb@OFF$C8E5F7RAW 17' Water Thug --> Mimic Box@OFF $C8E5F8RAW 2D' Pebbler --> Weepy Eye@OFF$C8E5F9RAW 33' Pumpkin Bomb --> Shellblast@OFF \$C8E5FARAW 34
« Last Edit: October 03, 2019, 02:58:23 am by hmsong »

#### Mr X

• Full Member
• Posts: 161
##### Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #551 on: October 01, 2019, 09:43:59 am »
Changing Hydra snd Jabberwocky to dragon type enemies when you have a sword that is effective against slimes/lizards for Jabber and a boomerang same for the Hydra fight seems kind of weird.

The Lime Slime being dark doesn't make much sense, as it's a slime which salamando magic is supposed to be used on it considering the weakenss?

Some enemies are simply meant to stay non elemental. I think you are looking too much into that.

What is the premise for doing this?

#### Queue

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 413
##### Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #552 on: October 01, 2019, 12:53:01 pm »
Finally got a chance to test and think I figured out why you guys were seeing Firenado not do 1 against fire element enemies: you had SSE On and Evil_Gate_-_More_Useful Off. The SSE Evil Gate spell function currently was only checking Evil_Gate_-_More_Useful enabled state to change behavior from "no bosses" to "no matching element" and SSE Firenado was piggy-backing on that.

Slight head scratcher when I was testing both SSE On and SSE Off with Firenado and having it work as expected. Anyway, problem resolved for next release.

#### Mr X

• Full Member
• Posts: 161
##### Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #553 on: October 01, 2019, 05:42:38 pm »
Mr X, like zoolgremlin suggested, I think the input screwiness you found is related to Quality_of_Life\Run_After_Area_Change; it causes quite a few little issues. If you discover that's not the case let me know, but that one's on my list of stuff to get reviewed for improvement.

I assume regarding Moon Energy you're pointing out how huge of a damage bonus it is where it makes other buffs unnecessary?

Yup it seems to be related to that. Also when it comes to the Girl and the Sprite I have trouble switching their weapons to their second one with just pressing the button once, I have to do that sometimes multiple times, where that is not a problem with the hero.

And yes, that is my concern with the Moon Energy. Other buffs AND debuffs are unnecessary with that around, even if you get it late game, you still get it.

Light saber+moon energy on the hero and he wrecks everything that is not immune to balloon status effect, even without the saber in turbo he will just hit the enemies 2-3 times in seconds and they are dead, same for bosses.

Imo if you are gonna encourage people use stat buffs/debuffs and status effects more, Moon energy, as things stand currently needs to go, but idk, it may be just me.

#### hmsong

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 448
##### Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #554 on: October 01, 2019, 05:54:18 pm »
@Mr X

My premise was to increase the # of Air, Fire, Luna, and Light element enemies.  In addition, I wanted to give the game a bit more "make sense" thing, rather than "be a boss where player can be effective against you" thing.

For example, both Hydra snd Jabberwocky are types of dragons in most myths.  Just because players have weapons that are effective against Slime/Lizard doesn't mean I should make them weak to those.  The same applies for Lime Slime.  It's a slime that specializes in Darkness (sent out by Shade himself, as he says "I shall test you").  I'm sure you want to say, "slimes are mostly made of water".  No, slime simply means it's made of liquid (rather than gas or solid).  And we have things like Green Drop (non-element), Red Drop (fire), Marmablue (Luna), and Shape Shifter (non-element).  Slime is slime, element is element -- one doesn't necessarily have to relate to other.  Besides, Lime Slime only uses Shade magic.  It doesn't make sense that it's Water elemental.

@Queue

I think Firenado is being renamed to Hellfire.

October 01, 2019, 05:58:19 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)

I think Moon Energy is fine the way it is.  Sure, it's powerful.  But it also has ABSURDLY low duration.  It runs out so fast.  I think it's well balanced.  Having said that, 1MP is a bit too low cost.  In fact, 2MP is too low too, which is why I increased it to 3MP (on the other hand, I gave it multi-target).
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 06:04:07 pm by hmsong »

#### Mr X

• Full Member
• Posts: 161
##### Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #555 on: October 01, 2019, 06:45:22 pm »
@Mr X

My premise was to increase the # of Air, Fire, Luna, and Light element enemies.  In addition, I wanted to give the game a bit more "make sense" thing, rather than "be a boss where player can be effective against you" thing.

For example, both Hydra snd Jabberwocky are types of dragons in most myths.  Just because players have weapons that are effective against Slime/Lizard doesn't mean I should make them weak to those.  The same applies for Lime Slime.  It's a slime that specializes in Darkness (sent out by Shade himself, as he says "I shall test you").  I'm sure you want to say, "slimes are mostly made of water".  No, slime simply means it's made of liquid (rather than gas or solid).  And we have things like Green Drop (non-element), Red Drop (fire), Marmablue (Luna), and Shape Shifter (non-element).  Slime is slime, element is element -- one doesn't necessarily have to relate to other.  Besides, Lime Slime only uses Shade magic.  It doesn't make sense that it's Water elemental.

@Queue

I think Firenado is being renamed to Hellfire.

October 01, 2019, 05:58:19 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)

I think Moon Energy is fine the way it is.  Sure, it's powerful.  But it also has ABSURDLY low duration.  It runs out so fast.  I think it's well balanced.  Having said that, 1MP is a bit too low cost.  In fact, 2MP is too low too, which is why I increased it to 3MP (on the other hand, I gave it multi-target).

Hence why the boss and the player should have means to be effective to one other, instead of just mashing the weapon button or no effective spells, or strategy to beat them. (In my opinion of course)

Jabberwocky is moreso described as a creature, not a dragon, while Hydra is described as a serpent, not a dragon, while they are able to regrow heads something dragons are not known for.

Spell types don't necessary describe the enemy weakness. Tho I wouldn't mind if lime slime has no weakness altogether considering it's based of slimes that inflict engulf/snowman/poison, different colors.

Moon Energy duration is enough for me to wreck any boss once I use it on all my characters (or enemy which I only use it on the hero). 999 damage on the mana beast per hit, no other buffs or debuffs gets taken out always without giving him a second chance to start another round of his physical attacks, someone like hydra got done in 20 seconds after using it on all 3 of my characters (enemies and bosses have double the amount of hp), it doesn't matter much if you get it late game in the form of herbal boost.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 06:57:52 pm by Mr X »

#### hmsong

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 448
##### Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #556 on: October 01, 2019, 07:10:47 pm »
@Mr X

Quote
Hence why the boss and the player should have means to be effective to one other, instead of just mashing the weapon button or no effective spells, or strategy to beat them. (In my opinion of course)

"Hence"?  What were you referring to?  I specifically said I'm trying to AVOID making the bosses be something they're not, just to be more vulnerable to the players.

As for Jabberwocky and Hydra, I think they're both closer to dragons than lizards.  I define dragons as large lizards.  And if we get too technical, then the snake bosses don't have anywhere to go, since they're not lizards nor dragons nor slimes.  But I shall make Blue Spikey into Non-elemental again (which is the original).  And change back Gremlin into Dark element again.

As for Herbal Boost... it's gonna be powerful no matter what.  I just make it 3MP to limit its usage.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 10:19:58 pm by hmsong »

#### zoolgremlin

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##### Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #557 on: October 02, 2019, 01:04:08 am »

Just following on from what's been said about Moon Energy/Herbal Boost, yes.  I was pretty sure that suggesting it be removed was for balance-related purposes.  However, I personally would take a leaf from hmsong's book here, and just see how increasing the spell's cost would go.  3MP is arguably not high enough, for a spell that can guarantee up to 15 Critical Hits (4-bit number).  In my own modded game, I made it 12MP.  The idea is, if you use this spell all the time, you will burn through MP, and the Faerie Walnuts/Coconuts, like crazy.  Which is only fair...

But that might still not be enough.  My other idea, therefore, is to one day increase the Defence scores of a lot more monsters/bosses.  Having to surpass a higher threshold to damage them, means they still won't die that quickly with auto-Criticals, as long as their HP are also raised.

There are a lot of considerations when trying to rebalance a battle system... but my mind is working on it.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 01:11:34 am by zoolgremlin »
MASTER LINK:  Secret of Mana Information (Vanilla)

"Yes, the Author is indeed a horse!"  <zool>

#### Mr X

• Full Member
• Posts: 161
##### Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #558 on: October 02, 2019, 01:35:17 am »
@Mr X

"Hence"?  What were you referring to?  I specifically said I'm trying to AVOID making the bosses be something they're not, just to be more vulnerable to the players.

As for Jabberwocky and Hydra, I think they're both closer to dragons than lizards.  I define dragons as large lizards.  And if we get too technical, then the snake bosses don't have anywhere to go, since they're not lizards nor dragons nor slimes.  But I shall make Blue Spikey into Non-elemental again (which is the original).  And change back Gremlin into Dark element again.

As for Herbal Boost... it's gonna be powerful no matter what.  I just make it 3MP to limit its usage.

Herald Sword a weapon effective against lizards, this projects makes these weapons more fun to use because they actually work, the original dev probably intended herald sword to be used against jabber but because those affinities didn't work in original game it wouldn't matter until the genius of this project came in. You are taking the fun of that away by turning jabber into a dragon type enemy (even tho they aren't even referred to as dragons in myths I am literally reading). Instead turn Jabber into a more effective boss while keeping the herald sword an effective weapon vs it for example.

You think so but I am looking it up and Hydra is referred to as a serpent, dragons do not regrow limbs, while Hydra does. The first things that I am reading about Jabber, he looks more like an undefined creature, not a dragon, not a lizard, not a serpent, just a creature. We have a clear distinction between them, the Dragons, and the lizards.

I would like you to rethink again about those changes is all I am trying to get at.

Just following on from what's been said about Moon Energy/Herbal Boost, yes.  I was pretty sure that suggesting it be removed was for balance-related purposes.  However, I personally would take a leaf from hmsong's book here, and just see how increasing the spell's cost would go.  3MP is arguably not high enough, for a spell that can guarantee up to 15 Critical Hits (4-bit number).  In my own modded game, I made it 12MP.  The idea is, if you use this spell all the time, you will burn through MP, and the Faerie Walnuts/Coconuts, like crazy.  Which is only fair...

But that might still not be enough.  My other idea, therefore, is to one day increase the Defence scores of a lot more monsters/bosses.  Having to surpass a higher threshold to damage them, means they still won't die that quickly with auto-Criticals, as long as their HP are also raised.

There are a lot of considerations when trying to rebalance a battle system... but my mind is working on it.

You have two sets of mp restoring items, you have mp absorb from Luna and Shadow Saber, you will have plenty of means to restore your mp.

#### hmsong

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 448
##### Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #559 on: October 02, 2019, 02:21:11 am »
@Mr X

I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, so please don't misunderstand.  I typed Jabberwocky, and I get these pictures: