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Author Topic: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191205  (Read 132093 times)

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
« Reply #300 on: September 09, 2019, 05:52:20 pm »
Update 2019-09-09:
https://ufile.io/bn04fnbm

Changes:
- Quick fix for the Farmable Sword Orb enemy so that he doesn't show up and flatten you anywhere in the world
- Implemented Magic\Sleep_Flower_-_Poison; adds poison (in addition to sleep) to Sleep Flower
- Internal code cleanup for Magic\Default_Spirit_Levels; hopefully didn't break anything

Technical Changes:
- Deployed new syntax for (mis)using ZPS's ADR.16 to encode non-address 16-bit values:
ADR.16 #0x1A2B (instead of the old, vague ADR.16 $001A2B)
This is the only case in ZPS syntax where 0x???? hexadecimal notation will likely work, but it makes intent and usage of the number explicit.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
« Reply #301 on: September 09, 2019, 06:58:44 pm »
@Queue

Oh my.  Thank you.  I can't believe I missed that.  Yeah, it works.

Wow, I did not know you can have multiple status effects on a single victim.  I need to do more experimenting to make things more useful.  Since Sleep Flower now has poison, I may use another effect for Dark Force (I may need to change it back to 2MP, since it's sort of more useful).

Now, for my next... question:
- How do I put "Speed Down" on Lucent Beam without the tangle effect?  In short, accuracy/evasion down (slow recharge not necessary).  I don't want to put "tangle" effect, since that doesn't make sense for Lucent Beam.
- Do you think it's possible to make Burst to make it cost HP instead of MP?  I can make it cost 0MP, but I have no idea how to make the user damage himself.  I want to make him damage either fixed 50 HP or 10% damage.  It's suppose to be a kamikaze attack (desperation attack).  But having it cost too much HP would make it impractical.

And these probably aren't something I can do, so I guess this is request (I think other people mentioned this):
- Can you increase the damage of "Ticks" of Poison and Engulf?  1HP is so tiny.  Maybe have it damage 1% per tick (round down, min 1HP) per tick, and for longer duration?  That way, it's a LOT more threatening (and therefore use the Herb/Remedy more frequently).  And Engulf would disable attack/spells while ticking away the HP (this allows movements, which I think was what it was supposed to be).
« Last Edit: September 09, 2019, 08:48:37 pm by hmsong »

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
« Reply #302 on: September 09, 2019, 10:19:08 pm »
Quote from: hmsong
- How do I put "Speed Down" on Lucent Beam without the tangle effect?  In short, accuracy/evasion down (slow recharge not necessary).  I don't want to put "tangle" effect, since that doesn't make sense for Lucent Beam.
The only spell that actually applies accuracy down and/or evasion down is one of the random Lunar Magic effects. Soo... it would require adding or modifying a spell function to make another spell capable of that. Which is not something easy to explain. I'm currently reviewing all of the spell functions to determine if it's feasible to make a generic stat up / down function to make such spells data-driven, to free up code space among the spell functions to add new variations.

There's an unused byte in spell data that could be used to specify the stat, and some logic could be used to extrapolate the anti-stat plus related buff/debuff timer for said stat, or the status effect value could be overloaded with stat buff/debuff values which would mean a spell couldn't both apply a status effect and a stat buff/debuff but the necessary code would then be smaller / simpler.
Quote from: hmsong
- Do you think it's possible to make Burst to make it cost HP instead of MP?  I can make it cost 0MP, but I have no idea how to make the user damage himself.
This isn't a feature of any existing spell so would require new code.
Quote from: hmsong
- Can you increase the damage of "Ticks" of Poison and Engulf?  1HP is so tiny.  Maybe have it damage 1% per tick (round down, min 1HP) per tick, and for longer duration?  That way, it's a LOT more threatening (and therefore use the Herb/Remedy more frequently).
Short answer: yes, I can, and I intend to.
Longer answer: I need to find the code that actually applies damage due to being poisoned and / or engulfed, then decide on how to change it. Not sure on changing the duration. Also, most likely damage would be some division by 2, so 1/16, 1/32, 1/64, 1/128, etc. of max or current health (both could be valid options, will need to see which works better).
Quote from: hmsong
And Engulf would disable attack/spells while ticking away the HP (this allows movements, which I think was what it was supposed to be).
This isn't feasible. Engulf has to make an actor face left / right every frame of animation to give the fire fake animation. The fire is actually a temporary weapon (as is balloon, the barrel, and the little death grim reaper) and doesn't itself animate. In contrast, poison is a palette change, moogle, pygmy, frosty and petrify are sprite changes, and unconscious is just an animation.



I think I need an itemized list of spell features people want if any of these more complicated requests are going to happen. So examples are "spell cast costs health instead of mana" and "spell can do damage, status effect and stat change at the same time" and so on. For any of this to be practical, I need to figure out how to define some of these new behaviors within the nearly full spell data blocks, then merge and genericize some of the existing spell functions to act on the changes to the spell data format. This would let people other than me do some of these alternative spell things they want, without themselves having to figure out how to, uh, program SNES code (not that I don't encourage it, but changing spell data and function pointers in a table is orders of magnitude different than changing the code that uses that data), and it would mean I wouldn't have to make all these changes to spell particulars via spell data and function table changes myself on a per request basis.

I'm willing to pursue this if someone(s) will write up a list of specifically what spell behaviors have been requested.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2019, 10:30:13 pm by Queue »

John Enigma

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
« Reply #303 on: September 09, 2019, 11:10:46 pm »
Forgive me for asking Mr. Queue, but does this Turbo hack of yours contain the latest version of zhader's Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack?

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
« Reply #304 on: September 09, 2019, 11:30:13 pm »
This Turbo project is built directly on top of the most recent publicly available version (v0.18) of zhaDe's New Gameplay Improvement mod (it uses the ZPS patching system he made to make NGI). If there's a newer version of his NGI available, I'm not aware of it.

John Enigma

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
« Reply #305 on: September 09, 2019, 11:41:20 pm »
Thank you.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
« Reply #306 on: September 10, 2019, 12:13:31 am »
Okay, I'm willing to write up the list of what types of things people want... or rather, what I want.  I don't know what others want (I'm not a mind reader).  I request:

- Make Burst spells cost HP rather than MP.
- <Damage> spells do <Damage + S.Effect>. (such as Blaze Wall) [done]
- <Damage> spells do <Damage + Stat Up/Down>. (such as Acid Storm)
- <Damage + S.Effect> spells do <Damage>. [done]
- Lunar Magic does... something more practical (All stat down, from one of the random Lunar Magic effects).
- Moon Energy has longer duration.
- 12th Item is Stardust Herb (instead of Faerie Coconut).
- Dispel Magic cancels out Lucid Barrier (it doesn't do that in the original game).
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 10:00:39 am by hmsong »

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
« Reply #307 on: September 10, 2019, 12:58:22 am »
I simply want to apply also some common sense to the spells. Like have Slow have the accuracy/evasion down.

Acid rain has the physical/magic def down

Fire boquet has physical atk down

I wouldn't make all stat down on lunar magic as it makes those spells useless. Magical atk down sounds like a good idea with it tho.

I don't think in my opinion that the evil gate needs to be more practical than this project already made it. It can do up to 999 damage on bosses, of course that would cost some more hp, it's an hp based damage spell.

I would make tho dispel cancel out lucid barrier also, always found it weird how that wasn't possible in the original.

Dark force, lucent beam, Burst, Exploder, Thunderstorm, Earth Slide, Freeze are the strongest spells in terms of damage. Burst, Dark force and Lucent Beam having the same spell power but with burst being effective on enemies with no weakness and undead as a poor mans version for the sprite to use since he has no light damage spells. Exploder should be also very high in terms of pure damage. Therefore more mp cost. More mp - more powerful, which you would use them in your early game mainly when you don't have a lot of mp. I would also make certain spells be mandatory on certain bosses even if for example a boss is weak to salamando, only lava wave or exploder works properly on them.


Moon energy furation seems just fine tbh, the bosses get rekt even currently as it is and they have double the amount of hp as well. hmsong


imho a lot need to be taken into account when manipulating the spells, if we look at it from a longterm planning perspective, future of this project and so on.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 03:14:36 am by Mr X »

zoolgremlin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
« Reply #308 on: September 10, 2019, 02:02:12 am »
Got a few more hours sleep, that should help.

Just very briefly, I wasn't going to make particular requests of my own regarding spells.  Personally, I thought it best to let Queue work on his bucket list and move on to other projects whenever he's ready.  Although, it looks like he might be all in favor of reprogramming the spell functions.  Hmmmm...

My plan was to learn enough to make changes I like to the game myself, that sounded like the better way.  Any changes I make could certainly be made available to others through the ZPS patch format, though.  My posts about magic were mainly meant to pass on information about the game, that I found in various other places.  :)

Mr. X mentioned something about the charge gauge being reset when hit with any magic.  It's been ages since I played Vanilla, wasn't really gonna go back to it.  So... I had forgotten that only Dispel Magic was supposed to reset the gauge when cast.  It was in the description for it:  "Sets enemy's gauge to 0/halts magic".  It might also have been meant to set Stamina to 0% too, since that's a gauge, but I don't really recall.

From what you described, Mr. X, it's possible that the gauge-reset function has been inadvertently changed to trigger upon every spell except Dispel Magic, but this isn't something I've looked into, as I also thought there was no bug here.  I honestly don't know what to think... :huh:

That'll do from me, just now.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2019, 07:56:08 am by zoolgremlin »
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Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
« Reply #309 on: September 10, 2019, 03:18:08 am »
I have a save file that leads to the hexas fight she likes to spam dispel so I will check again to be sure but dispel did reset the gauge from what I remember too like it was intended. That happens with every spell in this project now, defensive or offensive

zoolgremlin
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 04:01:59 am by Mr X »

zoolgremlin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
« Reply #310 on: September 10, 2019, 03:48:42 am »
@Mr. X  Okay, I will check as well, with both Vanilla and Turbo.   :thumbsup:
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Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
« Reply #311 on: September 10, 2019, 06:07:58 am »
Ok so for sure dispel magic does dispel weapon charge back to 0, as intended in the original. But every spell does that as well which wasn't the case in the original.

Dispel magic does not dispel lumina's barrier and lunar energy, I would definitely change that and be able to dispel both of them to make those two spells less overpowered, to bosses who use dispel at least will have that advantage.

Another thing that really bothers me the Mech Rider 2 and 3 fight, they are supposed to use these canon moves but they very rarely do that if ever, have them use it more frequent and remove speed up from mech rider 3 completely, it always gets reflected away making that fight rather dumb overall with him just running around and reflecting his own magic which improves my own stats!

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
« Reply #312 on: September 10, 2019, 04:36:07 pm »
Bug_Fixes\Overcharge_Fix by Mop seems to be what's causing the charge reset when hit by spells. Its mechanism for trying to prevent weapon overcharging is to reset charge level under certain circumstances to prevent the exploit, and I guess a side effect is it also resets when a spell hits a character. I've been meaning to write my own version of this bug fix that directly prevents charge going over specific values, and reducing the charge level if you get the level above its maximum somehow, but hadn't gotten to it since Bug_Fixes\Overcharge_Fix was doing the job well enough.

Also, I found the issue Mr X encountered where upon dying, he saw the "Early Luna" hint text; Early Luna uses event 7FC which is unused in vanilla, but VWF Edition and Relocalized use it for an additional death message variation (it requires specific party members). I've relocated it to event 7F2 for the next release, which hopefully is truly unused.

Chugging away at getting the foundational work for spell change extensions in.

Edit: Fun fact: Apparently Acid Storm has the status effect value for poison set, but the function it calls doesn't apply status effects, so the value isn't used.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 05:46:55 pm by Queue »

zoolgremlin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
« Reply #313 on: September 10, 2019, 05:49:01 pm »
Aaaand... I'm back.  Hadn't even gotten halfway with testing for the gauge-reset thing, but ah well...

Bug_Fixes\Overcharge_Fix by Mop seems to be what's causing the charge reset when hit by spells. Its mechanism for trying to prevent weapon overcharging is to reset charge level under certain circumstances to prevent the exploit, and I guess a side effect is it also resets when a spell hits a character.

It does make sense that [Overcharge_Fix] would be the origin, given the nature of what it's fixing.  If the only side effect is resetting the charge&stamina gauges, that's not so bad an effect.  Looked at another way, it might make the use of Dryad's Wall spell more enticing, if Wall circumvents the reset.  I think I will check that.

By the way, Queue, the only other thing in the topic that I've seen you request feedback on is the [New_Game_Plus] feature you created.  Admittedly, I haven't messed around much with that yet, but I'm going to eventually.  The game definitely restarts okay after picking the "repeats..." option.  And the Rabites were able to hurt the Boy even with the top-tier armor.  Can't argue with results like that.

Is there any other feature you would like me to test for bugs/glitches, etc.?  I guess I should ask while you're here...  :)

EDIT:  The thing about Acid Storm was mentioned by Regrs way back when, and I saw the bit for Poison in the spell data table that HHS posted on TASVideos.  Still a fun fact to me, though.   8)

Link to GameFAQs page where Regrs wowed everyone (33 pages, unfortunately...):

More speculation on deleted content
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 02:05:28 pm by zoolgremlin »
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hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
« Reply #314 on: September 10, 2019, 06:57:00 pm »
Quote
Edit: Fun fact: Apparently Acid Storm has the status effect value for poison set, but the function it calls doesn't apply status effects, so the value isn't used.

Yeah, I noticed.  I thought about putting Poison to Acid Storm, but I figured Acid Storm already has Def Down, so it's unnecessary.  I'm guessing programmers thought that too.

Also I was talking to Kethinov over email, regarding Stardust Herb for the 12th item, and he said:
Quote
Regarding the Stardust Herb, I was actually the person who wrote the code for the Stardust Herb for Timbo, but I wasn't aware he had released it yet. Is it bundled with Relocalized? (I haven't actually played Relocalized yet, so I wouldn't know.) If so, yeah, it could be released as a standalone hack, since that's how I developed it originally. I have an early version IPS of it in my private files that is fully functional but lacks the graphic Timbo created for it. That’s the version he based the final version off of. Though again, even though I helped Timbo with the coding, I'm not a big fan of the concept of the Stardust Herb, so this isn't something I would consider a big priority on my (very long) to do list. You might be able to persuade him or possibly Queue to extract the finalized version from Relocalized and release a standalone version though. Queue has already extracted a handful of things from Relocalized to offer standalone versions.

So... is there a Stardust Herb patch somewhere?  I'd love to use that instead of Faerie Coconut.  If you need graphical picture, I can make it (using Paint).  I don't know the canvas size of the icon though, so if you tell me that, I'll make one (mostly by using SD3's icon).

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
« Reply #315 on: September 10, 2019, 08:56:59 pm »
No, the Stardust Herb patch isn't part of Relocalized nor publicly available otherwise. I'm pretty sure Timbo intends to use it with his Secret of Mana: World of Balance project.

The last thing I need is artwork unless it's been formatted for use directly by Secret of Mana; SNES-esque icons are easy, inserting replacement art is tough, and making the game show new art that isn't replacing something is very difficult. If you want to contribute art, you'll need to use an SNES sprite editor (i.e. Tile Layer Pro https://www.romhacking.net/utilities/108/), locate and modify the art in the sprite editor so that palette-based color numbering is correct, save the modified ROM and locate which bytes changed due to your edit (generating an IPS patch is an option I'd accept, though I'd prefer a block of either the raw bytes or the same in ascii digits).

Despite how daunting that sounds, I already simplified a step via Graphics\Decode_Menu_Icons so you don't have to ALSO decode and re-encode the icon art as well.

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
« Reply #316 on: September 11, 2019, 01:49:00 am »
If Acid  Storm is supposed to cause poison I think it should stay like that then, fixing what the original couldn't.

Acid storm - poison, magic and physical def down
Slow - hit and evade rate down
Fire Boquet - physical atk down
Lunatic - some status + magic atk down

While making dispel magic also dispel lucid barrier and lunar magic.

While removing the poison from sleep flower and have them work like sleep flowers, like those from SD3. Of course Acids storms spell power should be weaker than freeze, it's main function is stat down, and status infliction on enemies.

And the dread slime would be a pain to deal with that as it likes to spam that spell not that I mind. More challenge - fun.

September 11, 2019, 01:56:40 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Aaaand... I'm back.  Hadn't even gotten halfway with testing for the gauge-reset thing, but ah well...

It does make sense that [Overcharge_Fix] would be the origin, given the nature of what it's fixing.  If the only side effect is resetting the charge/stamina gauges, that's not so bad an effect.  Looked at another way, it might make the use of Dryad's Wall spell more enticing, if Wall circumvents the reset.  I think I will check that.

By the way, Queue, the only other thing in the topic that I've seen you request feedback on is the [New_Game_Plus] feature you created.  Admittedly, I haven't messed around much with that yet, but I'm going to eventually.  The game definitely restarts okay after picking the "repeats..." option.  And the Rabites were able to hurt the Boy even with the top-tier armor.  Can't argue with results like that.

Is there any other feature you would like me to test for bugs/glitches, etc.?  I guess I should ask while you're here...  :)

EDIT:  The thing about Acid Storm was mentioned by Regrs way back when, and I saw the bit for Poison in the spell data table that HHS posted on TASVideos.  Still a fun fact to me, though.   8)

Link to GameFAQs page where Regrs wowed everyone (33 pages, unfortunately...):

More speculation on deleted content

This is very interesting. Equipment with elemental resisyances, could make a lot of equipments more useful depending on situation, reminds me of the Sin of Mana a SD3 hack where every equipmemt is useful depending on what you need, certain bosses require certain equipments to be able to win etc.

Only downside being you had to keep excel open looking for the info.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 01:56:40 am by Mr X »

SpiffSpoo

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190908
« Reply #317 on: September 11, 2019, 06:29:46 pm »
That's how the game's sound engine was designed. The Super Nintendo has 8 sound channels. Most games divide them up so that say, 4 channels are used for music and 4 for sounds (or 5 and 3, 6 and 2, etc.). Secret of Mana allows music to use all 8 channels with the caveat that sounds can temporarily steal some of those channels (to emit sound effects) which means parts of the music cut out while sound effects are playing. This let them make fancier music, since they weren't limiting themselves to the more typical less-than-8 channels for music. Unfortunately, some songs have important parts of their melody on channels most likely to be overridden by sounds.

I included Mop's Audio\SFX_Channel_Limit hack (Off by default) which restricts how much music can be overridden by sounds, but it's not a cure-all.

That's what I thought, but wasn't sure how it was actually implemented since I almost never hear it happen in other SNES games.
If the hack helps with more music coming through, even if not a complete fix, it is more than welcome.
Could you also mention that hack on the front post? Unless I am blind, I am not seeing it there.


@SpiffSpoo From HHS on TASVideos, I have info about which status effects are incompatible with each other.  I will check to make sure it's all correct later on, but here's the info about that (copy/paste from the TAS forum):

- Petrify removes slow, tangled, sleep, freeze, stop, barrel and burning, and halves HP every time status changes
- Freeze removes slow, tangled, sleep, stop, barrel, poison and burning
- Sleep removes slow, tangled and barrel
- Tangled removes slow, tangled and barrel
- Moogle removes stop, barrel, transform, poison and burning
- Freeze, petrify and mini remove transform
- Transform removes slow, tangled, confuse, stop, barrel, poison and burning
- Tangled, sleep, freeze, petrify, stop, poison, burning remove barrel
- Burning removes stop, barrel and poison
- Freeze, petrify, transform and moogle remove poison

So using your example of engulf&snowman, (which is listed as burning&freeze respectively, above), an enemy could indeed be inflicted with both at the same time, since neither of them cancel out the other.  (Sure fine design Square, you dopefishes!   :laugh:)  Whereas Petrify and Freeze can't coexist because Petrify removes Freeze.  Not that there would be much use to that example, it's just to demonstrate how the logic of status effects works in the code (at least apparently...?).

I forgot to check whether Poison and Sleep could coexist before trying it with Sleep Flower earlier, only checking after it actually worked.

Link to the TASVideos page I pulled the info from:  TASVideos Discussion:  Secret of Mana (page 18 of 30)

The posts aren't numbered, but HHS' info is very close to the top, it starts off with, "Here are some various things that I've found out."

Hope all that helps...  now back to my experimenting and reading.  Whew!  :)

That's pretty cool and a good source of information as well.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 06:36:29 pm by SpiffSpoo »
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hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
« Reply #318 on: September 11, 2019, 08:30:33 pm »
@Queue
Quote
Quote from: hmsong

    How do I "check" that?  Table?  If you're talking about hex 11, then yes that's Blaze Wall, but I don't really know where you got EBE5.

Oh, uhm, so this is where a hex editor (like HxD, https://mh-nexus.de/en/hxd/) comes in. I totally forgot to cover that. The reason I specified all of those file offsets even though that's not the format the ZPS patcher uses for addresses was to make looking in the ROM file with a hex editor easier. Using a hex editor (there are many hex editors, I just linked to one I know is good), open a Secret of Mana ROM (ideally in read-only mode so you don't accidentally make changes), and go to the file offset 0x08E801 (which is usually listed on the left side of most hex editor's UIs) either by scrolling down, or using the hex editor's "Goto..." function (often which uses the keyboard shortcut Ctrl+G).

Okay, so I used HxD to open up a rom, and I'm guessing what I'm seeing is 0x08E801.  All I see is <AE>.  Am I even looking at the right place?  Here's the pic of what I'm seeing:
https://ibb.co/4KN0tDY

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190909
« Reply #319 on: September 11, 2019, 09:00:14 pm »
That picture shows you looking at 0x08EB01 while it's 0x08E801 that you'd want.



Right now, the format for spell data in the ZPS file I'm setting up looks like:
Code: [Select]
@OFF Spell.List.Earth_Slide
ADR.16 SSE.Func.Detrimental.Damage
@OFF %Spell.Data.Earth_Slide%*%
RAW Spell.Target.Enemies
RAW Spell.Stat.None
RAW Spell.Power.Default
RAW Spell.Accuracy.Default
RAW Spell.Element.Gnome
ADR.16 Spell.Effect.None
RAW 03 ' mana cost
I have to use %'s if I want to support stuff like the following elsewhere:
Code: [Select]
@OFF %Spell.Data.Thunder_Saber%Effect%
ADR.16 Spell.Effect.Confuse
due to specifics of how the patcher's ZPS parser works.
Any given value can be specified as a literal instead, but I'm setting up constants for vanilla values aside from Mana Cost and maybe the Power variations.

SSE stands for Spell System Extensions and will be the constant prefix for the new spell functions (SSE.Func.*), while everything vanilla will just be Spell.* (and there will be a list of vanilla Spell.Func.* defines for reference if nothing else).
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 09:10:12 pm by Queue »