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Author Topic: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191115  (Read 100125 times)

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #560 on: October 02, 2019, 02:41:43 am »
@Mr X

I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, so please don't misunderstand.  I typed Jabberwocky, and I get these pictures:
https://www.google.com/search?q=jabberwocky&client=firefox-b-d&channel=trow&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiEj9329vzkAhXYwosBHRifAxkQ_AUIESgB&biw=1920&bih=935

And Hydra:
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&channel=trow&biw=1920&bih=935&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=I0GUXaCGNoWImAWvu6WICA&q=hydra&oq=hydra&gs_l=img.3..0l10.32289.32937..33108...0.0..0.120.534.1j4......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i67._yFO0MjaB8Q&ved=0ahUKEwjgo9f39vzkAhUFBKYKHa9dCYEQ4dUDCAY&uact=5

Looks like dragons to me.  I don't know what exactly defines Dragon from Lizard (in literal sense), but like I said, I define Dragon as oversized Lizard.  It's kinda like King Ghidorah.  It's not dragon -- it's some sort of alien.  But we think it's a dragon.  Kinda like that.  Besides, serpent isn't a lizard anyways.

Maybe I'll make Jabberwocky into Dragon, and keep Hydra as Lizard/Slime.  What do you think?  Jabberwocky is definitely closer to dragon than a lizard though.

Hmm I will reply to you in PM regarding this

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #561 on: October 02, 2019, 03:43:26 am »
@Mr X

Okay, you convinced me (in my current list, there are more dragon bosses than Lizard/Slime bosses).  I changed both Jabberwocky and Hydra back to Slime/Lizard.  I updated the list.  I'm not sure if Queue will re-update the list though.

Having said that, there are way too many dragon bosses in Pure Land (4 of 6 are dragons).  Perhaps I'll change Dragon Worm to something else, and give Dragon status to either Jabberwocky or Hydra.  Jabberwocky, most likely.  Maybe I'll make Snap Dragon to a Lizard/Slime too (that guy is definitely not a dragon, except for his name).  More thinking is required.


EDIT:  Okay, I have decided to make Jabberwocky and Hydra into Dragon (from Slime/Lizard), and make Snapping Dragon and Dragon Worm into Slime/Lizard (from Dragon).  That way, the game can maintain having more Slime/Lizard bosses than Dragon bosses.  I know this wasn't what you were looking for.  Sorry.  But I just can't help but want the former two to be dragons.  So in the end, it's more of personal preference than anything else.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 04:40:07 am by hmsong »

zoolgremlin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #562 on: October 02, 2019, 03:51:24 am »
Just out of interest on my part, is anyone in favor of making the Frosty status defect reduce currHP by 50%, just like Petrify used to do?  That would make it a lot more useful as crowd-control, in relation to other status defects that stop all actions.  The 50% reduction is meant to compensate for being unable to hit a Snowman with physicals, until it wears off/is Remedy'ed.   :crazy:

Or is it much-preferred that Frosty be turned into another kind of defect?  Haven't given much thought yet, as to what that would be.  Apart from hmsong's proposed Fear status, which doesn't really fit Undine's "Magic Domain".  Hmmmm...    ::)

If this reduction were added to Frosty in the game, Ice Saber might have to increase in MP-cost, as a counter-balance.  EDIT:  A later Post of mine points out that characters cannot target Frostied monsters.  I previously stated that Frostied targets could still be hit with spells.  However, that is in some doubt now.  Soooo... my bad, once again.   :(
« Last Edit: October 05, 2019, 09:27:07 am by zoolgremlin »
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hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #563 on: October 02, 2019, 04:11:02 am »
@zoolgremlin

Perhaps Frost can have the same effect as Fear status (able to move, but not melee attack).  After all, the new snowman enemy can move just fine, but cannot melee attack.  It'll be similar to moogle status, except it works on enemies.  That would be awesome.  I don't know if you can remove the melee immunity out of Frosty though (if that is your intention).

October 02, 2019, 04:51:34 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)

@Anyone

Anyone know how to make the three Shadows (Shadow X1, X2, X3) drop chests?  I would love for them to drop the missing Glove and Axe orbs.  I tried the usual method (similar to what I did with Mimic Chest), but they didn't drop anything.

Fun Fact:  You can manipulate the Shape Shifter monsters to make them replicate into Shadow X1, X2, or X3.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 04:55:38 am by hmsong »

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #564 on: October 02, 2019, 04:51:54 am »
@Mr X


Having said that, there are way too many dragon bosses in Pure Land (4 of 6 are dragons).  Perhaps I'll change Dragon Worm to something else, and give Dragon status to either Jabberwocky or Hydra.  Jabberwocky, most likely.  Maybe I'll make Snap Dragon to a Lizard/Slime too (that guy is definitely not a dragon, except for his name).  More thinking is required.


Because it is meant to? Why else do you think they are put so late in the game, you have all these dragon effective weapons also by that point, no coincidence. :huh:

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #565 on: October 02, 2019, 04:56:42 am »
@Mr X

But neither Snap Dragon nor Dragon Worm look/behave nothing like dragons.

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #566 on: October 02, 2019, 05:09:03 am »
@Mr X

But neither Snap Dragon nor Dragon Worm look/behave nothing like dragons.

Yeah you are right, Snap Dragon makes no sense look wise. A name change would probably be better. Or change hus characteristics.

But we have the weapons distributed in a way more or less to be effective against certain enemies and bosses.

There is a reason we have these dragon type weapons in the end and no salamando magic but herald sword being effective to slimes/lizards when you encounter Jabber. The devs probably were after a pattern.

The weapons like excalibur otabinable ready for the undead bosses and enmies in northtown ruins, as well as some of them effective vs metallic/insects for Emperors castle enemies and bosses

Same foe the Herald sword and the water palace, no salamando magic but have a sword effective to slay the enemies there and the boss (not a requirement but since the affinities are fixed now why take away from that)

Dragon themed bosses starting to emerge in Grand Palace and Pure Land especially being more apparent, along with dragon effective weapons emerging. No coincidence again, the devs were trying to work after a pattern but couldn't make it work.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #567 on: October 02, 2019, 05:31:18 am »
@Queue

In addition to my updated [Enemy_Type_And_Element_Changes] list, I'd appreciate it if you can add another of my patch:

[Mimic_Box_Rewards] :

Mimic Box is a hard enemy to find (the real Mimic Box).  The only way to find him is through Shape Shifter replicating him.  So, I decided to make him worth the effort.

- It drops its chest 100% of the time.
- Killing it gives you 9999 GP (!!!).

Can you say... WORTH IT!!  Not quite as much as Grand Palace+ bosses, but still way more than any regular monsters.

Code: [Select]
' Mimic Box Drop - 100%
@OFF $D03B31
RAW 40

' Mimic Box GP
@OFF $D02134
RAW 0F 27


@Mr X

As I said before, I have no intention of making enemies be something they're not, just to give the players easier time.  While your argument about "Jabberwocky and Hydra are not dragon" is indeed valid, they're not Slime/Lizard either.  Of course, you can argue that for many other monsters (Snake bosses aren't lizards either).  So I just decided to go with my gut feeling.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 05:48:32 am by hmsong »

zoolgremlin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #568 on: October 02, 2019, 05:48:28 am »
hmsong:  I believe there is great danger involved in allowing a Snowman to move, it'll take quite a while to explain why, though.  If Frosty were to grant free movement, but no attacking or spellcasting, I would likely have to disable the code that changes a Frosty'ed target into a Snowman sprite.  But that's all for later on, if it is viable at all.   :)



Link to new Folder for prototype hacks/mods:  Prototype Shortlists for SoM Hacks-WIPs

Link to new Table in the Information Folder:  Shop and Item Data Tables

Please note that the Shop and Item Data document, as well as the Helmet, Body Armor and Bracer Data document, are still works-in-progress.  They have the Vanilla data ripped from the ROM, but no updated notes as of yet.  I'm getting there, don't worry...  :laugh:
« Last Edit: October 03, 2019, 07:17:34 am by zoolgremlin »
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hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #569 on: October 02, 2019, 05:55:26 am »
@zoolgremlin

Yeesh.  Prototype Shortlist seems like something I'll have to study first before I mess around with it.

Shop and Item Data Table seems like something I'll be very happy to mess around with though.  I've been wanting to redo the shopping list.  Specifically, after Wind Drum, so that Tasnica has better equipments than Gold Isle.  I also want to make the Desert and Ice Land into different equipment shop (one has the better helmet, while the other has the better armor).

So thank you.

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #570 on: October 02, 2019, 06:12:24 am »
@Queue

In addition to my updated [Enemy_Type_And_Element_Changes] list, I'd appreciate it if you can add another of my patch:

[Mimic_Box_Rewards] :

Mimic Box is a hard enemy to find (the real Mimic Box).  The only way to find him is through Shape Shifter replicating him.  So, I decided to make him worth the effort.

- It drops its chest 100% of the time.
- Killing it gives you 9999 GP (!!!).

Can you say... WORTH IT!!  Not quite as much as Grand Palace+ bosses, but still way more than any regular monsters.

Code: [Select]
' Mimic Box Drop - 100%
@OFF $D03B31
RAW 40

' Mimic Box GP
@OFF $D02134
RAW 0F 27


@Mr X

As I said before, I have no intention of making enemies be something they're not, just to give the players easier time.  While your argument about "Jabberwocky and Hydra are not dragon" is indeed valid, they're not Slime/Lizard either.  Of course, you can argue that for many other monsters (Snake bosses aren't lizards either).  So I just decided to go with my gut feeling.

That falls into the category of balancing. Make jabberwocky into a more difficult/effective boss then instesd of taking weapon effectiveness away.

There are other means of making the bosses more difficult to give you a tough time instead of taking away from a feature that this project gave life.

zoolgremlin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #571 on: October 02, 2019, 06:19:03 am »
Quote
hmsong:  I've been wanting to redo the shopping list.

Yeah, I thought you might.  I want to do it too, just haven't got to it yet.  Been checking to see if my prototype list actually works as intended, or not.  (In one case, definitely not!)  Will format the two new Table documents soon...  8)
« Last Edit: October 03, 2019, 09:13:52 am by zoolgremlin »
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hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #572 on: October 02, 2019, 06:30:00 am »
@Mr X

Quote
That falls into the category of balancing. Make jabberwocky into a more difficult/effective boss then instesd of taking weapon effectiveness away.

There are other means of making the bosses more difficult to give you a tough time instead of taking away from a feature that this project gave life.

It is not my intention to make the bosses easier nor harder.  I just wanted to make the bosses into more "makes sense type/element", at least, in my POV.  The coin flip just ended up landing on the "harder" category (by a very small margin).  More importantly, I don't have the necessary skills to make bosses harder by "other means", other than messing with their stats, and both Turbo and kethinov have such patches.  Once I get to that level, I may revise the list again.

I hope I get to that level.  I really do.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 06:46:09 am by hmsong »

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #573 on: October 02, 2019, 06:42:51 am »
@Mr X

It is not my intention to make the bosses easier nor harder.  I just wanted to make the bosses into more "makes sense type/element", at least, in my POV.  The coin flip just ended up landing on the "harder" category (by a very small margin).  More importantly, I don't have the necessary skills to make bosses harder, other than messing with their stats, and both Turbo and kethinov have such patches.  Once I get to that level, I may revise the list again.

I hope I get to that level.  I really do.

Ok fair enough then. I will leave it at that.

Same here, I need a lot more practice.

zoolgremlin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #574 on: October 02, 2019, 07:32:42 am »
Mr. X:  Didn't mean to ignore this bit, by the way.  Sorry about that...  :-[

Quote
Mr. X:  You have two sets of mp restoring items, you have mp absorb from Luna and Shadow Saber, you will have plenty of means to restore your mp.

You are definitely right about this.

Thanks for your response, it is good for you to point these out.  Magic Absorb and the new Saber also must be taken into account, when rebalancing the battle system, if that is anyone's goal.  There are options with those two spells to increase the MP-cost/weaken the Spell Power (making it harder for them to pay for themselves), and also options to buff the monsters, just to name a couple.  The latter is a longer path to walk, but I am pretty sure I can do that.

I hopefully won't forget about the Vanilla tables and other code documents, however...  :laugh:
« Last Edit: October 03, 2019, 09:13:39 am by zoolgremlin »
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megapopito

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #575 on: October 02, 2019, 07:38:11 am »
are you guys implementing hacks made by Kethinov ?
he made tons of different hacks like this one:
https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4693/

but no compilation regrouping all of those, which is kinda sad...

zoolgremlin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #576 on: October 02, 2019, 09:00:39 am »
@megapopito:  Queue, the creator and director of the SoM Turbo project, has said that he intends to implement all of kethinov's hacks/patches.  So far, he has prioritized the ones he likes to use, but technically anyone else could implement them, if they know how.  The hardest part, from what I hear, involves ensuring compatibility with Timbo's Relocalized patch.  Hopefully, that helps answer your question...  :)
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megapopito

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #577 on: October 02, 2019, 10:04:23 am »
thx !

i think it's a great idea !!! gonna take some time i guess to do it. :(

didn't know secret of mana was so badly unfinished.

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #578 on: October 02, 2019, 05:25:38 pm »
I hadn't considered that someone would want vanilla Evil Gate and Firenado at the same time. Seems crazy to me but whatever, I'll support that combination.

Lemme know the precise technique you plan to use so I can update the RHDN version of the hack. I have a version in progress that integrates most of your edits already. Just need to come to consensus on how to handle the spell definition code.

I'm more interested in knowing your thoughts on removing the multi-target penalty so that use on normal enemies has more value (at its exorbitant mana cost)

I hadn't considered it. Don't see a reason why not to support that. Sounds good to me.

overhauling the damage logic so that level 0 isn't functionally the same as level 8 once you hit bosses with enough health.

This I'm more skeptical of. Makes it more like a regular damage spell, which undermines the whole point of a gravity attack: that it doesn't consider the spellcaster's level as part of the damage calculation. Making the spell weird (high cost, ignores spell level, etc) is a feature, not a bug. The goal should be to be unique, interesting, and useful mainly in niche situations rather than all the time.

Again, my ideal scenario for when it is useful is:

1. When fighting a particularly mean boss (especially when playing with boss HP amped up)
2. That isn't immune to it
3. When the magic recharge hack is enabled
4. When time is of the essence or you'll die

The combination of those things means that casting Freeze 4 or 5 times might do more damage at less MP cost, but it would take more time. In such a situation, the player may value time more than MP as doing damage quickly is more likely to keep you alive; thus the high MP cost is a worthy sacrifice.

If that strategy ends up being ideal for only like 3-4 bosses in the whole game, that's good enough for me. We should have variety as to what strategy is best for which bosses. Similar to how barrels with the changes we made to them are now a good strategy against Spikey Tiger and maybe a handful of other bosses, but they're still fairly useless. But not completely useless. That's all I aspired to.

My initial thought is a damage cap based on spell level so that the mana cost can be brought back down

All that said above, I actually am not opposed to this idea so long as the cap isn't scaled too widely.

Perhaps something like this (or close to it):

- Max damage at level 0: 750
- Max damage at level 1: 780
- Max damage at level 2: 810
- Max damage at level 3: 840
- Max damage at level 4: 870
- Max damage at level 5: 900
- Max damage at level 6: 930
- Max damage at level 7: 960
- Max damage at level 8: 999

Then MP being lowered back to 8 (minimum) to 10 (maximum) would be more reasonable.

Gave myself a new longterm goal of removing the full-pause from spell animations that have them

If you figure out a way to do that I'll be impressed and grateful because I think all of us here dislike that limitation. I have been under the impression that it isn't possible because the high level animation needs all the available VRAM to animate the fancier animation. Do you have any preliminary thoughts on 1. if that is true and 2. if so how it could possibly be mitigated?



2tack

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190927
« Reply #579 on: October 02, 2019, 07:26:45 pm »
I think with all these more powerful gravity spells coming in we need to somehow prevent them from being too easily used. By that I mean we can just load up on Fairy Walnuts and the new Fairy Coconuts. Things can cost 99MP and it doesn't matter if your stash of MP restorative items can still allow you to spam a boss to death.