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Author Topic: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210116  (Read 413530 times)

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201103
« Reply #1620 on: November 04, 2020, 03:13:34 am »
Honestly I would be fine with the Wall Face simply having a weakness to gnome you know. Throw boulders and gem missiles to destroy the wall instead of splashing water.

It's not like the players will suddenly open a document to find out that the Wall is a sylphid element, analyze only shows the magic they are weak at not what element the monster is.

Not entirely sold out by hmsong's enemy changes, but I still like some things on it.

I didn't want magic to be so overpowered.  If I give it weakness to Earth (or Water), then the fight will be too easy.  I can make it not strong against Water/Earth though (I can give it Luna element, instead of current Gnome element).  The eyes will still have weakness against Earth though.  I wanted the player to kill one eye, but leave the other eye alone -- this will prevent the closing walls (at least, for a while).  And combined with Queue's new squinting animation, it should work well.  I wanted player to use melee attacks (specifically, charged melee attacks).

I'm always open for suggestions.

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201103
« Reply #1621 on: November 04, 2020, 06:27:46 am »
I didn't want magic to be so overpowered.  If I give it weakness to Earth (or Water), then the fight will be too easy.  I can make it not strong against Water/Earth though (I can give it Luna element, instead of current Gnome element).  The eyes will still have weakness against Earth though.  I wanted the player to kill one eye, but leave the other eye alone -- this will prevent the closing walls (at least, for a while).  And combined with Queue's new squinting animation, it should work well.  I wanted player to use melee attacks (specifically, charged melee attacks).

I'm always open for suggestions.

Magic will still be overpowered later, wont make much sense to make Wall Face many times more difficult than later bosses, I agree with Queue in that regard.

Original SoM is at fault in that regard, Spikey Tiger is well known as the hardest boss which is fine but you gotta make then upcoming/later bosses just as challenging at very least, if not more, accounting spells, weakness etc.

lightninghunter

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201103
« Reply #1622 on: November 04, 2020, 09:29:50 pm »
Magic will still be overpowered later, wont make much sense to make Wall Face many times more difficult than later bosses, I agree with Queue in that regard.

Original SoM is at fault in that regard, Spikey Tiger is well known as the hardest boss which is fine but you gotta make then upcoming/later bosses just as challenging at very least, if not more, accounting spells, weakness etc.

Actually, I was thinking of requesting a hack that reduces the magic power of all the characters and/or elementals (possibly even cut it in half). With the settings I currently have, SOM is quite a bit harder thanks to the quick enemies, the 1.5x HP amount, and the "only one type of each equipment" hack. The only part of the game that is still too easy is the overpowered magic, even with the magic recharge time. Thanks to the new Wall Face hack, the game would be beatable with reduced magic damage. SOM would be pretty well balanced for us experienced players with less magic damage. What would be really nice is a magic stat modifier option like with the enemy stat modifiers...

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201104
« Reply #1623 on: November 04, 2020, 10:27:10 pm »
Version 2020-11-04:
https://filebin.net/7spaiz2xfys6b2i1/SoM_Turbo.201104.zip

Changes:
- Combat\Turbo_Mode now prevents any Level 8 spell animation from pausing gameplay (by demoting the hardcoded special animations to their level 6/7 equivalents, sorry fire serpents)
- Implemented Magic\Analyzer_-_Early_Access which swaps Analyzer and Remedy (and recolors Remedy to be Sylphid-themed)
- Implemented Graphics\Unspoiled_Spells which fixes some visual issues with Blaze Wall, Burst and Wall (so far)
- Implemented Bug_Fixes\Spell_Palette_Cycle_Speed which fixes a vanilla issue where most (or all) vanilla spell animations set their palette cycle speed before selecting their palette, which results in resetting the cycle speed to minimum; this means spell colors will cycle as originally designed, which is generally slower and smoother

The change to Turbo_Mode led me to discover the issue with Burst which led to creating Unspoiled_Spells, and the creation of Analyzer_-_Early_Access (recoloring Remedy) led me to discover the issue with palette cycling speed which led to bug fixing Spell_Palette_Cycle_Speed.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201104
« Reply #1624 on: November 04, 2020, 10:57:30 pm »
Magic will still be overpowered later, wont make much sense to make Wall Face many times more difficult than later bosses, I agree with Queue in that regard.

Original SoM is at fault in that regard, Spikey Tiger is well known as the hardest boss which is fine but you gotta make then upcoming/later bosses just as challenging at very least, if not more, accounting spells, weakness etc.

Very well then.  I shall change Wall Face's center eye back to Sylphid element (so that it'll be weak to Gnome).  Maybe I'll make the eyes into some other element.



@Queue

Hot damn.  This is just getting better and better.  Very much fun.  Love it.

For swapping Analyzer and Remedy... doesn't Popoi's grandfather say something about, "you must use Sylphid to analyze the orb", or something like that?  Maybe change the script to, "you must use Sylphid's magic to get past the orb" or something.

Also, in [Enemy_Type_And_Element_Changes], could you disable the Wall Face element change? (and the description)  That way, it'll return back to Sylphid element.  Thanks.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2020, 12:22:45 am by hmsong »

lightninghunter

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201104
« Reply #1625 on: November 05, 2020, 03:40:35 am »
Just now in my playthrough(using 201104), the game started majorly freaking out while I was fighting the viper in Matango. I haven't been able to replicate it, but I didn't have much time to try tonight, either. The boy had a spear equipped, and while in the midst of a lot of action, I used the midge mallet to un-shrink myself, and the boy started flying around the screen and even off the screen using spear attacks while flashing crazy colors. I couldn't control the boy anymore and had to shut off the game.  I got a video that I will upload to youtube tomorrow. Not sure if this is from one of the latest fixes or not!

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201105
« Reply #1626 on: November 05, 2020, 05:34:45 am »
Version:
https://filebin.net/7spaiz2xfys6b2i1/SoM_Turbo.201105.zip

Changes:
- Removed Wall Face element change from hmsong's Balance\Enemy_Type_And_Element_Changes
- Added typo fix to Relocalized event 581 (Text\Event_Fixes)
- Changes to Combat\Strong_And_Weak_Attacks:
-- Fixed animation glitch that occurred when you attacked with certain weapons while being cured of a form change (pygmy, moogle, etc.)
-- Slightly altered animation of directional axe attack; this doesn't change its collision area, timing, or effectiveness, just what the second of three frames of animation looks like (the intent being to make it look more like a chop and less like a stab)
-- Gave pygmy form two separate attack animations (stationary / directional) instead of only punches
-- Tweaked moogle form "attack" animations for consistency and goofiness (note that moogle charge attacks are still bonkers)



hmsong, the dialog isn't quite what you're remembering. Grandpa says:
Use "Analyzer" to
learn what magic works
on crystal orbs.

...just after commanding Sylphid to join you, but doesn't specifically say it's Sylphid's spell. So it works fine as-is. Same for VWF Edition, Relocalized and SAP: none change that line in a way that necessitates a fix.

Regarding Wall Face, will do.



lightninghunter, yikes. I found the issue you ran into, and it's not actually new. In fact it's the opposite: it's probably been there since this project started. I can't believe I've never run into it, but it's as simple to trigger as:
0) have Combat\Strong_And_Weak_Attacks enabled
1) while equipped with a weapon with a non-vanilla attack animation
2) while being restored from pygmy or moogle form...
3) spam whatever attack will use that non-vanilla animation as you're transforming back
So some weapons won't trigger it (like the whip), some will only with certain attacks (spear directional stab), some will with any attack (axe), and so on. I'll tackle this tomorrow morning. I thought I had dealt with all of the Strong_And_Weak_Attacks animation bugs months (years even?) ago. I guess I somehow just never mashed attack when transforming back in all this time (or had the right / wrong weapon equipped)... which seems impossible, but here we are.



Edit: Updated post to add new version.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2020, 06:52:34 pm by Queue »

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201105
« Reply #1627 on: November 10, 2020, 06:39:58 pm »
I was testing out Wall Face, and it turns out that he only closes the wall when he runs out of MP (due to Revive).  Specifically, when he tries something that requires MP, but doesn't have enough MP.  Gotta test that out with Demon Wall too.

Thank you Analyzer (which is Queue).

greenghost420

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201105
« Reply #1628 on: November 10, 2020, 10:23:29 pm »
are you supposed to be able to go to the moon palace when you first get to the desert?  the path looks blocked but i was able to chop my sword and clip thru the road block. reading a walkthru is seems your supposed to go to the moon palace after the gold tower? loving the improvements,thanks!

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201105
« Reply #1629 on: November 11, 2020, 01:10:20 am »
are you supposed to be able to go to the moon palace when you first get to the desert?  the path looks blocked but i was able to chop my sword and clip thru the road block. reading a walkthru is seems your supposed to go to the moon palace after the gold tower? loving the improvements,thanks!

If you enabled "Early Luna" (default), then yeah, you would be able to go to Moon Palace early.

greenghost420

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201105
« Reply #1630 on: November 11, 2020, 02:17:53 am »
ah ok ill assume its on then. i also could clip thru some one way steps in the mana fortress i think its called.

lightninghunter

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201105
« Reply #1631 on: November 11, 2020, 03:17:36 am »
lightninghunter, yikes. I found the issue you ran into, and it's not actually new. In fact it's the opposite: it's probably been there since this project started.

Looks like it is fixed! I equipped the boy with the spear again and used the midge mallet about a dozen times (to test things), and nothing went wrong. I did notice that the boss music kept playing after I defeated the Viper, and didn't stop until I talked to flammie. If this was intended and/or vanilla behavior, then no big deal; just thought I would mention it.

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201110
« Reply #1632 on: November 11, 2020, 03:36:23 am »
Version 2020-11-10:
https://filebin.net/7spaiz2xfys6b2i1/SoM_Turbo.201110.zip

Changes:
- Renamed zhaDe's Quality_of_Life\Faster_Chest_Opening to Fastest_Chest_Opening, and reduced the wait after the chest opens slightly further; note that Fastest is off by default
- Implemented a new Quality_of_Life\Faster_Chest_Opening, which replaces the slow vanilla shake-and-throw animation with a fast new kick-in-the-junk animation; this was way more complicated to create than it sounds, give it a whirl and see if you like it more than the old boring Faster_Chest_Opening
- Added the static Treasure Chest to Graphics\Manicured_Monsters, hiding the sliver of shadow that peeked out from static chests
- Added the Boomerang to Graphics\Polished_Weapons, which means it no longer shows in your hand while it's currently thrown
- Implemented Bug_Fixes\Consistent_Shadows, which prevents palette effects on the boy from affecting all shadows on screen (those under all players / enemies / bosses / NPCs / chests); like the new Faster_Chest_Opening, way more complicated to make happen than would be expected
- Added 5 more overlooked function calls to FastROM
- Fixed a palette bug in the rain of arrows attack that's part of Combat\Strong_And_Weak_Attacks, easiest to witness in the early area where you pull the sword from the stone
- Made Miscellaneous\Functional_Fashion's specialized poison palette loader recolor player hair in addition to their skin
- Added the girl's pygmy form to Graphics\Retouched_Characters, fixed a few girl palette inconsistencies and further refined her graphics (missing or discolored pixels, etc.)

There is a chance that the new Faster_Chest_Opening will cause something somewhere to have a messed up frame of animation: I used what appeared to be an unused animation frame (possibly related to the Tropics stove, but not valid for the stove) for the new chest opening animation for static chests, and as far as I know it's unused, but I haven't done a full playthrough to verify. So keep your eyes peeled; it'd be something that's composed of 4 16x16 tiles, I think in a square (so 32x32), basically two of the boy standing side-by-side in size.

Nearly everything in this update was crazy complicated to implement, despite how simple the features seem, but fingers crossed that it's bug free.



greenghost420, I think you're describing forcing your way up one-way slopes that push you by using attack animations? That's more-or-less vanilla behavior (it's easier to do with Combat\Strong_And_Weak_Attacks, but not impossible without it), and never results in anything that breaks the game as far as I know. In the case of Magic\Early_Luna, getting past a sand slope in the desert to reach the Moon Palace early is the intended result. If you think you've found somewhere problematic, where going the wrong way can get you stuck or break the game, don't hesitate to point it out.

lightninghunter, the music is supposed to stop after defeating the Great Viper. I just did a quick test both vanilla and with Turbo and the music stopped after his defeat. Did you get the Sword Orb message after he was defeated? Note that if not the next Sword Orb chest will let you open it twice so you won't be behind forever. I'm suspecting you ran into another obscure bug, this one vanilla: basically, if you step on a door / exit tile on the same frame (or something like that) a boss-is-defeated event triggers, the tile's event can interfere with the defeat event. It's on my list to get fixed, but have never gotten to it. I'd actually recently got the boilerplate for that bug added to the ZPS file but hadn't put in any real work on it yet (if you search the ZPS file for "Defeat_Waits_For_Events" you'd see a hidden checkbox and empty .asm section for it). I'm hoping a solution will work like the Flammie Drum + Event fix where I can have the boss defeat event wait to start if there's an event currently in progress.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2020, 12:13:31 pm by Queue »

lightninghunter

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201110
« Reply #1633 on: November 11, 2020, 01:11:00 pm »
lightninghunter, the music is supposed to stop after defeating the Great Viper. I just did a quick test both vanilla and with Turbo and the music stopped after his defeat. Did you get the Sword Orb message after he was defeated?

I did actually get the Sword Orb message, and I got the orb itself (I know for sure, because I upgraded my sword to the Claymore).  What is interesting is that the victory music didn't play and my characters didn't celebrate. When the snake died, there was merely an explosion sound (the snake turned red and blew up), but there was no screen flash with the usual disintegration effect.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201110
« Reply #1634 on: November 11, 2020, 05:56:29 pm »
@Queue

I know that you have a ton of things to do on the list, but could you do two things?:

1. Make Dark Lich's underground form be able to move sideways as well as vertically.  This way, he will not be a sitting duck, and he'll punish players trying to use magic (so the only form to attack him would be to use melee attacks).  It'll also make Run much more useful, since AI allies are forced to follow you if you run.
2. Mana Beast
  • In vanilla, Mana Beast becomes vulnerable either after descending from top, or rising from the bottom (but Mana Beast is out of the reach when he's descending).  When he rises from the bottom, he is extremely vulnerable.  Could you get rid of that, so that Mana Beast will only descend from the top?  He'll be less vulnerable that way.
  • Could you make the descend/ascend MUCH faster?  Mana Beast is just vulnerable without being able to do anything.  No sense in making him slow there.  On the other hand, I want the other animations (dive attacks, fire breath) to remain slow, since it wastes time for player's buffs (such as Mana Sword).

I'm sure these requests will be difficult.  But I feel like they will make the final fights a bit more enjoyable.

Also, would it be possible for you to make the rare items from the chests a bit more common?  The chest frequency is fine the way it is, but the rare item from the chest is frustratingly rare.  From what I tested, it seems less than 10%.  Could you make it so that it's 20~25%?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2020, 08:30:21 pm by hmsong »

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201112
« Reply #1635 on: November 13, 2020, 03:57:25 am »
Version 2020-11-12:
https://filebin.net/7spaiz2xfys6b2i1/SoM_Turbo.201112.zip

Changes:
- Implemented Combat\Faster_Bosses which halves the time they must wait between attacks; not sure if it affects all bosses and not sure if it causes any specific boss's AI to work worse
- Rewrote Magic\Magic_Recharging ring menu behavior; the elementals will also be grayed out if waiting on a recast timer instead of only the spell sub-level
- Implemented Balance\Dark_Lich_-_Nether_Pursuit which allows the Dark Lich to chase horizontally while embedded in the floor
- Implemented Bug_Fixes\Defeat_Waits_For_Events which prevents blocking the "Way to go!" event during some boss fights; other boss defeated events aren't similarly protected but I hope to improve this in the future
- Rewrote Bug_Fixes\Dark_Lich_Head_Bang_Fix (originally by Kethinov); it should now be a pure bug fix without compromise (i.e. doesn't disable movement), automatically enabled if Dark_Lich_-_Nether_Pursuit is On
- Improved Quality_of_Life\QuickSpell_Hotkeys behavior: disabled / enabled appearance should update automatically, now plays error sound if final confirmation is blocked, etc.



hmsong, I'll have more to talk about regarding bosses later, but need to get some sleep. And chest rare drop frequency? I see your edit. Dark_Lich_-_Nether_Pursuit was a handful. I hate boss code. -_-

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201112
« Reply #1636 on: November 13, 2020, 07:20:47 am »
Not sure hoe the Fire Gigas ran out of MP quite early after casting Hellfire like once or twice, despite me having multiplied boss MP by 5 fold.

Or might be because of the new feature faster bosses, I forgot to use analyze on the Fire Gigas, forgot that spell got switched out for Undine.

November 13, 2020, 09:25:56 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Ok can confirm it happened with Spring Beak too, after casting Balloon once I tried to use analyze on him and it had 0/255 MP (255 was the MP it was supposed to have).
« Last Edit: November 13, 2020, 09:26:25 am by Mr X »

CVReynolds

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201112
« Reply #1637 on: November 13, 2020, 09:45:36 am »
Sorry to be so late to report back. I just started thinking about how unimportant and egocentric my doing so would be... so I didn't. But now I think maybe I was wrong. That maybe I seemed like a jerk just disappearing.

I did have someone test the "statuses get stuck" thing I was talking about before. That friend discovered that as far as they could tell, it's just a myth. They tested several times and in several different ways. But no stuck statuses thing occurred. I found others (who didn't test it) who swear they remember it happening, same as I did. But there's no evidence. It's group hysteria or something. :3

I think this project keeps getting better. I love everything that you've done with it and I love how many options there are for use. But there's one thing I'd still like to see implemented.

Currently there's a "Weapon Upgrade BugFix", "Switch weapon with the new upgraded version if it is equipped." That fix only fixes the non-graphical weapon data right now. So the weapon palettes don't get refreshed. I'd love to see it updated so the palettes get reloaded too. It is listed as a "TODO" in the patching utility at the moment. :3

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201112
« Reply #1638 on: November 13, 2020, 09:54:47 am »
I used Analyzer on the Orb in the Upper Land also no message popped up like it was supposed to.

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 201113
« Reply #1639 on: November 13, 2020, 04:41:59 pm »
Version 2020-11-13:
https://filebin.net/7spaiz2xfys6b2i1/SoM_Turbo.201113.zip

Changes:
- Fixed Magic\Analyzer_-_Early_Access not working on Crystal Orbs
- Fixed Bug_Fixes\Consistent_Shadows discoloring boss shadows
- Fixed Quality_of_Life\MP_Shown_Within_Status_Area conflicting with Bug_Fixes\Big_Health_And_Mana_Support (boss mana >= 128)
- Dust_Flare now swaps Speed_Up and Fire_Bouquet recast times
- Herbal_Boost now swaps Moon_Energy and Revivifier recast times
- Analyzer_-_Early_Access now swaps Remedy and Analyzer recast times
- Added one more function call to Technical\Enable_FastROM

So this is just a quick bug fix update. Thanks for all the bug reports!



Quote from: CVReynolds
Currently there's a "Weapon Upgrade BugFix", "Switch weapon with the new upgraded version if it is equipped." That fix only fixes the non-graphical weapon data right now. So the weapon palettes don't get refreshed. I'd love to see it updated so the palettes get reloaded too. It is listed as a "TODO" in the patching utility at the moment. :3
Have you tried it? As far as I see the palette does update and the feature description is simply incorrect.

That bug fix is inherited from zhaDe's New Gameplay Improvement. It shares weapon equipping code with Quality_of_Life\Equip_2nd_Weapon, so my guess is he improved the weapon equipping code to update the palette but didn't go back and change the Weapon_Upgrade_BugFix feature description.

Taking a look at said weapon equipping code, it's not calculating player attack power or weapon status procs correctly, so I need to fix that.

Edit: And that's fixed for next update. It only got attack power and status procs (etc.) wrong for the girl and sprite. It was an original NGI bug that's gone unnoticed for years.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2020, 05:48:17 pm by Queue »