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Author Topic: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200810  (Read 330479 times)

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200408
« Reply #1340 on: April 19, 2020, 07:14:47 pm »

reconstructingmana, I'm trying to wrap up what I think is the last of the preparatory stuff regarding importing an entire event set. Once done there, I need to export the following (partly to make sure you have the data, but also so I have a full plan for re-importing it):
- money
- status effect messages
- spell names
- weapon names
- equipment names
- item names
- ring menu text
- enemy names
- weapon descriptions
- spell descriptions
- location names
- magic rope and Flammie drum error messages
- various menu screen text
- the game's intro text scroll

You may have some or all of the above already. If you lack any of that, let me know and I can get it done first.

I also need to verify any name length limitations for the above. While we'll have functionally unlimited ROM space to hold the data, some aspects of the UI can't accommodate text over a certain length. For example, at the blacksmith, to upgrade a weapon, there's a maximum length to a weapon's name above which the UI fails. I think I recall it being 16, though no Vanilla weapon or item name is more than 14 characters long.

Timbo's Relocalized project was focused on names of people, places and things, and terminology (Lucre vs. Gold); it uses FuSoYa's VWF Edition script as a base and makes almost no changes to it (just replacing names, and a few instances of decensoring some Vanilla text choices). I'd still recommend against looking at it until you're happy with your name choices and use it as a later cross-reference rather than letting his choices affect your choices.

Right now, my primary concentration has been the script.  From what you're saying about Timbo's work, it seems like there might be a lot of value in this project as it doesn't seem like anyone has revisited the original Japanese in full. 

As far as spell names, menu text, etc., I was going to ask what you wanted here.  I do not have the original Japanese for non-script text, and they have already been translated many times elsewhere.  I was actually thinking maybe we would just leave in the original English names for the most part?  I planned on keeping them for the characters.  If not, then I'll see if I can track down the Japanese text.

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200408
« Reply #1341 on: April 19, 2020, 08:06:32 pm »
Almost none of the text mentioned has much overlap with the script. I think the best approach is to continue as-is, and any changes in the script that should be propagated (e.g. elemental names) to the non-script text I listed can be made on an as-needed basis.

NPC names (Jema, Luka, etc.) are only in the script with the exception of the elementals, very few enemy names show up in the script (just Dark Stalker I think?), etc.

I brought it up to be thorough, but I consider them of much lower importance (given that Relocalized exists) than the main script finally getting a new translation.

Tzepish

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200408
« Reply #1342 on: April 20, 2020, 01:25:17 pm »
Hey guys, just popping in to note that I found a minor bug. If you have manual block on and you swap L and R, then the tutorial after dying to the first boss still says "Hold R to block". FYI!

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200408
« Reply #1343 on: April 20, 2020, 02:12:08 pm »
Thanks! That'll be fixed next update.

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200408
« Reply #1344 on: April 20, 2020, 02:43:23 pm »
Hey, queue.

How difficult would it be to code in a few random NPCs in various towns?  I'd rather give extra dialogue to new characters to separate it from the originals. 

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200408
« Reply #1345 on: April 20, 2020, 03:08:51 pm »
Usually surprisingly difficult. Not impossible, but let me see if I can walk through what it takes to remind myself as well as provide insight:
1) each map has a list of NPCs (both friendly and enemies are in this same list, as are chests), and there's no free space; to add an NPC to a map, an NPC from an adjacent map must be taken (adjacent in data, not necessarily a logically adjacent location)
2) non-combat areas, like towns, have a limit of 9 NPCs active at once and a non-zero number of towns are already using this limit (it's why Kakkara, for example, runs so poorly), so in those cases another NPC would probably need to be disabled to show the new one
3) some location interiors are all loaded at the same time, so are at the 9 NPC limit even though you can't see more than the ~2 in the room with you
4) you have to make sure the new NPC doesn't conflict with the palette assigned to the map they're being added to (else they'll appear discolored)

There are occasional exceptions to 1), but it varies case-by-case and I don't know if any towns are an exception.

In the case of 2), if the location isn't already at 9 NPCs, then adding one reduces framerate at that location.

There's also then a need to make a new event to attach to the new NPC, but that's trivial compared to actually adding the NPC. There are tons of unused events and functionally unlimited space to put them.

---

So, I could probably manage it in a couple locations, but it's not something that would be practical to do in every town. In many locations it would require disabling a different NPC which would defeat the purpose of adding one. Most likely, it would be enemy spawns that would be converted into townsfolk, so some combat locations would have slightly fewer total spawns.

I don't think it's a worthwhile approach given the constraints, but if there's a town where everyone already has noteworthy dialogue, squeezing in a new NPC to hold new text could prove worthwhile.

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200408
« Reply #1346 on: April 20, 2020, 03:27:42 pm »
This sort of stuff has been a hobby of mine; a lot of my hacks involve creating new NPCs or moving them around and messing with dialog in the way you describe. As Queue said it's easier to do in some places than others.

If you detail which new NPCs you wish to create and where, I can help you explore the feasibility, let you know what specific tradeoffs it would require to create a new NPC in that specific location, and/or help you implement it.

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200408
« Reply #1347 on: April 20, 2020, 06:15:02 pm »
Thanks, everyone.  Well, let me get a wishlist.  Your response is making me think that the reason there's houses you can't enter is because of the limitations of the SNES---they probably wanted content in those places and just couldn't make it happen. 

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200408
« Reply #1348 on: April 20, 2020, 06:30:48 pm »
I would guess it has more to do with time constraints. The ROM has a fairly healthy amount of space for additional NPCs and dialog events. There are even some unused interior spaces in the ROM with no doors pointing to them yet, sometimes with dummied out NPCs/monsters in them. I'd bet they probably wanted to flesh out the houses and interiors more but didn't get around to finishing the work because they wanted to rush the game into production to meet a deadline. Hard to know for sure though.

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200420
« Reply #1349 on: April 20, 2020, 08:07:26 pm »
Version 2020-04-20:
https://filebin.net/7spaiz2xfys6b2i1/SoM_Turbo.200420.zip

Changes:
- added support for Quality_of_Life\Reverse_L_and_R_Hotkeys to the Mantis Ant Tutorial messages
- slight improvement to Technical\Safe_Save_State (w/ _Pause_Gameplay_Only) to avoid event system garbage when changing event scripts between save state loads
- slight improvement to Bug_Fixes\Orb_Overflow_Event to avoid unusable 9th orb obtained messages (weapons have 9 levels powered by 8 orbs)
- slight adjustment to kethinov's Restore_Unused_Fanfares to avoid a Vanilla event conflict
- slight adjustment to Revisit_Pure_Land to avoid a VWF/Relocalized event conflict
- fixed a false dependency of Relocalized on the Magic section

Technical Changes:
- massive internal restructuring; the ZPS file went from ~2.9 MB to ~4.3 MB and now includes Vanilla, VWF Edition and Relocalized event scripts in human-readable form
- rewrote all event modifying features / patches / hacks to use new event system (hopefully didn't break anything)
- added definitions for event flag comparison nibbles (=>5, =<F, etc.)
- added partial documentation for unused non-empty events
- added documentation for empty events
- added shorthand aliases for event system \print_boy, \print_girl and \print_sprite (as [B], [G] and [S] respectively)
- added single-byte support for negative hex value literals (-#01 == #FF, -#02 == #FE, etc.)
- added single-byte support for bitwise NOT operator (~#00 == #FF, ~#C0 == #3F, etc.)

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200420
« Reply #1350 on: April 22, 2020, 12:56:23 pm »
Update: I'm 25% of the way through the preliminary translation.  Hope springs eternal that I can finish by this weekend. 

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200420
« Reply #1351 on: April 22, 2020, 07:24:40 pm »
Thanks for releasing a new patch.  I feel like the event thing was specifically created for me, so I'm very grateful.  I've been a bit busy with work related stuff (workload increased, since Corona died down significantly in Korea), so I won't have time to analyze the new patch until the weekend.

Is there anything I should know, in order to make the learning experience a bit easier?  Similar to how you told me to search for <' "SPELL DATA DEFINITIONS"> if I wanted to see the new definitions for names/descriptions/etc, what should I search for, for the new event-related stuff?  Or any of the new contents (that my amateur mind can comprehend).

Quote
echnical Changes:
- massive internal restructuring; the ZPS file went from ~2.9 MB to ~4.3 MB and now includes Vanilla, VWF Edition and Relocalized event scripts in human-readable form
- rewrote all event modifying features / patches / hacks to use new event system (hopefully didn't break anything)
- added definitions for event flag comparison nibbles (=>5, =<F, etc.)
- added partial documentation for unused non-empty events
- added documentation for empty events
- added shorthand aliases for event system \print_boy, \print_girl and \print_sprite (as , [G] and respectively)
- added single-byte support for negative hex value literals (-#01 == #FF, -#02 == #FE, etc.)
- added single-byte support for bitwise NOT operator (~#00 == #FF, ~#C0 == #3F, etc.)

I couldn't even understand anything that started with "- added".

Wuw, I did not expect there to be BOLD and SLASH for the quote.  I guess it's because of that [] thing.  How did you manage to type yours out, and still use the [] thing?

Tzepish

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200420
« Reply #1352 on: April 22, 2020, 08:40:09 pm »
I'm loving the mod, fantastic job all of you guys. This compilation with all the changes opt-in with checkboxes is the greatest way to do this - I wish all the various FF6 mods could come together like this. Here are some of my misc observations and wishlist features after messing around with the various settings. Feel free to take or ignore any of this feedback!

* I suggest swapping the Javelin's Strong and Weak attacks. Currently holding the dpad causes the quick jab attack and neutral results in throwing. This feels backward to me as throwing is the "reach" ability and the one you expect to be using by default, and the quick jab feels more like the close-range, non-directional attack that i'd expect for neutral. Using this weapon is a bit of a bummer because I want to throw it all the time and it's difficult to.

* The Bow's neutral attack is a bit crazy for a noncharged attack. I suggest replacing it with a shorter range shot (the dpad attack would be a longer range shot).

* New feature request: Attacking Requires Full Stamina. This would be for those who like that the stamina system enforces pacing but are not interested in devoting mental space to keeping track of when the attack is available again. In other words, spamming the attack button would result in attacking as fast as stamina allows without any penalty swings.

* For Faster CPU Allies, I recommend a default speed of 2 instead of 1. 1 is technically "better" but it makes them look super spastic; 2 is just slower enough to make them look "competent fast".

* New feature request: Default names. When the name screen comes up, instead of being empty, have it pre-populated with Randy/Primm/Popoi.

* New feature request: Add character's name to ring menu text. For example, instead of showing "Equipment" in the upper left, show "Primm's Equipment", etc. Sometimes you open the menu and can't tell whose menu you're looking at. Alternatively, show it some other way, maybe by graying out the portraits at the bottom for the characters that don't have a ring menu open.

* New feature request: Goblins always kidnap you. This is a much less annoying way to get Primm to join than going to the Haunted Forest early.

* Circular Forging: I wish there was a bit more info here, I'm scared to turn this on. Will this revert a weapon to level 1, special ability and attack power and all? Or will it simply revert it to gaining the special ability without affecting its power level? If it's the former, there's probably a better way to implement this as a special feature, rather than an additional click at Watts. By the end of the game, the player is in the habit of mindlessly clicking on every upgrade that's available anyway, so it'd be a bummer to accidentally downgrade.

* Spell quick hotkeys: I wish this only supported four hotkeys instead of eight, and each of the four was character agnostic. For example, I could put Primm's Cure Water on dpad down and Popoi's Freeze on dpad up (rather than having to hit X to switch to Popoi). By the time I remember to hit X to switch characters, the feature is no longer fast enough to justify using.

* After playing up to obtaining Jinn/Sylphid with multiple sets of settings, I found the default x2 xp and x2 luc too generous. It's a grindy game, but that's mostly due to weapon and magic xp. I recommend setting those two to x1, but keep all other scaled defaults the way you have them (including x2 xp and x2 luc for bosses).

* I highly recommend No Heal At Level Up to be on by default. I didn't expect it to enhance the game as much as it has. No longer do I feel bummed when I have to use an item because gambling by waiting means I can heal for free with level up - now using items feels necessary, and I'm happy to have planned ahead buying them.

* I recommend having the L and R hotkeys swap feature on by default (or make L = guard and R = magic the default and make the swap option swap them back). Since my right hand is super busy with attacks and menus it's actually harder to remember to hit R to guard during combat, but L feels natural because it coincides with when I need to stop moving, and my left hand is the "moving" hand. Also, R is easier to remember to use for magic hotkeys. Finally, the levels screen has Weapons on L and Magic on R, so there's some nice symmetry that can help you remember which is which.

* I suggest moving the MP display in the HUD up into the space directly below the HP (where the weapon charging currently is), and move weapon charging to above the HP and portrait to make it stand out more. This would improve the look of the HUD and avoid putting critical information in that frequently-cropped space at the bottom. EDIT: Just realized that for people playing with Stamina this would also move the stamina bar above the portrait, which may or may not look good. It'd probably still make it more noticeable though, which would be a win.

* I wish there was some supporting UI when assigning backup weapons and spell hotkeys.

* I wish Faster Chest Opening wasn't silent - it feels buggy. Maybe it wants to play a single instance of that "chest slam" sound right at the start? Alternatively, maybe it just wants to speed up the "shaking / slamming the chest" animation, rather than bypassing it altogether.

* Functional Fashion: this is amazing. My one suggestion is to make the default equipment result in the default palettes, so you don't begin the game with an orange Randi, for example.

* Mimic Box Rewards: I wish this had more explanation text explaining what normally happens with mimics, for comparison (I couldn't remember)

EDIT: I missed one!

* When using Faerie Coconut and Relocalized together, the original Faerie Walnut is renamed to Magic Walnut, but the Faerie Coconut remains Faerie Coconut. I suggest renaming it to Magic Coconut for consistency.

« Last Edit: April 23, 2020, 11:21:52 am by Tzepish »

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200420
« Reply #1353 on: April 23, 2020, 02:41:24 am »
reconstructingmana, I'm part way through stripping out the vanilla event script and adding markup so I can programmatically merge your translation in. After a few passes of working out the kinks I hope to have a system that's more-or-less automated, so adjustments can be made to the text without having to make any changes by hand elsewhere.

After I get the initial pass on the stripped script done I'll get in touch (via personal message here probably) to work out specifics on getting access to your translation. I assume you haven't moved to an online document editor (Google Docs or equivalent, where multiple people could edit the same file simultaneously), so likely the most practical approach would be to give me an in-progress copy I can experiment with, then once you're at your initial 100% translated I'll do a full round of adding markup and getting insertion working, then give you back the version with markup (assuming a spreadsheet, it'd be a new column with hopefully little or nothing changed otherwise) for any subsequent editing.

That's all a little optimistic, as there's a lot of unknowns, potential corner-cases, etc. But no point in not being optimistic about a project like this.



hmsong, I'll surely need to do a full explanation of how to use the new syntax for modifying events, and there's no easily searched text markers (yet).

I'd suggest looking at: your Generous_Gold_Chests to see an event with text changes, Missable_Spear_Fix for a medium complexity event change that doesn't change any text, and Orb_Overflow_Event for a low complexity event change.

A quick summary:
- decide what event(s) needs to be changed
- if changes need to be in the middle of the event, add a new label
-- for example, if in Event680, find !Event680, and add a custom label definition below it as !Event680.Patch_Name (for now, look for examples in the ZPS file)
-- add the custom label to Event680 in all 3 current event scripts
- use %OFF% Event### and/or %OFF% Event###.Patch_Name to make changes

That explanation sucks, but I promise it's an easier system.

There's some markup hidden between the [ and the B] (or S).
[[B][/B]B] = [B]



Tzepish, I really appreciate the thoughtful feedback; I'll need more time than I have at the moment to give a thorough reply.

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200420
« Reply #1354 on: April 23, 2020, 06:55:41 pm »
Here are some of my misc observations and wishlist features after messing around with the various settings. Feel free to take or ignore any of this feedback!

I'll reply to the ones that are relevant to my work.

* New feature request: Attacking Requires Full Stamina. This would be for those who like that the stamina system enforces pacing but are not interested in devoting mental space to keeping track of when the attack is available again. In other words, spamming the attack button would result in attacking as fast as stamina allows without any penalty swings.

This has been on my to do list for some time. I have experimented with various methods of accomplishing this, but I've yet to figure out a way to do it.

* New feature request: Default names. When the name screen comes up, instead of being empty, have it pre-populated with Randy/Primm/Popoi.

Ditto. I've tried to implement this before but I haven't been able to figure it out.

* New feature request: Goblins always kidnap you. This is a much less annoying way to get Primm to join than going to the Haunted Forest early.

I've tinkered with those events before, so I could make a hack to do this very easily. I'll add it to my to do list.

* I highly recommend No Heal At Level Up to be on by default. I didn't expect it to enhance the game as much as it has. No longer do I feel bummed when I have to use an item because gambling by waiting means I can heal for free with level up - now using items feels necessary, and I'm happy to have planned ahead buying them.

Haha it's nice to see someone else appreciate it. :)

* When using Faerie Coconut and Relocalized together, the original Faerie Walnut is renamed to Magic Walnut, but the Faerie Coconut remains Faerie Coconut. I suggest renaming it to Magic Coconut for consistency.

Great idea, I'll add it to my to do list.

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200420
« Reply #1355 on: April 24, 2020, 06:42:08 pm »
While the following will seem a bit terse, I'm interested in discussion, not just having the final word. If you can convince me of the merits of an idea that I seem to be dismissing, please do. Keep in mind that I prioritize my preferences when something is subjective (I'm doing this for fun).

Tzepish: Swap the Javelin's Strong and Weak attacks.

Conceptually, the Javelin is set up as a mirror of the Bow: the Bow has long range directional attacks, and short range neutral, while the Javelin is short range directional, long range neutral. Whip and Boomerang are long range for both.

Tzepish: The Bow's neutral attack is a bit crazy for a noncharged attack.

Is it? It's a short range delayed attack. It should be somewhat like the neutral Axe swing in area, but with a delay before it connects. If you mean aesthetically, meh, it's not my creation; I worked the bugs out of it (it had lots!), but fundamentally defer to the original creator (in this case zhaDe) artistically.

Tzepish: Attacking Requires Full Stamina.

Alright, I'll add this to my to-do list. What are your thoughts on the stamina recharge beep and character flash?

Tzepish: For Faster CPU Allies, I recommend a default speed of 2 instead of 1.

Seems reasonable. Vanilla is 05. I think all this feature does is shorten the animation duration of a time-wasting idle animation in the teammate AI.

Tzepish: Default names.

This is something I have negative interest in. If someone else made it I'd begrudgingly include it, but it's not something I'll pursue.

Tzepish: Add character's name to ring menu text.

I like this a lot. I don't know that it's something I can work on especially soon given I have a lot on my plate at the moment, but definitely something I want to do. It's also likely a lot of work, regardless of if it's the text approach or some other visual indicator.

In general, just assume that UI stuff is a massive amount of work because it typically is. Quite a few things that I really want to do but haven't involve the UI.

Tzepish: Goblins always kidnap you.

I've never been sure if the goblin stew event being tied to event flag 0x11 is on purpose to add an element of perceived randomness, completely intentional, or a mistake. I think this is probably a 1-byte change. If kethinov gets to it first, great, but if not I'll take a stab at it at some point.

Tzepish: Circular Forging.

It changes the weapon from its level 9 variant into its level 1 variant. So yes, it affects its attack power, stats, procs, etc. It doesn't (intentionally) affect your experience with it, its charge level, etc.

An accidental downgrade just wastes money. The feature is primarily meant for use with New Game Plus, where my plan is to ignore the attack power (any level would function as the same fixed attack power) and you'd just be choosing which proc / affinity / stats you want, but it's available in general because some lower level weapons are superior to their higher level variation and I always resented accidentally upgrading away from my favorites. So it's a use for end game money to let you fine-tune your weapons.

I do want to improve the interface (maybe via something like a confirmation message), but that's a low priority.

Tzepish: Spell quick hotkeys: I wish this only supported four hotkeys instead of eight.

I've toyed with that idea; I also find the diagonals to be a nuisance. The Quick Spell Hotkeys aren't my creation, so I've tried not to go too crazy in subverting / compromising their design.

Tzepish: Spell quick hotkeys: and each of the four was character agnostic.

Not likely to happen. If I ever get around to it, something I've wanted to do is add items as hotkey-able, selected via the boy as the character ostensibly using them instead of magic.

This sounds like the way this feature worked in an earlier iteration (earlier than I ever personally used), but was expanded as 4 hotkeys total were too few and then necessitated pausing to cast, which defeated the purpose.

Tzepish: x2 xp and x2 luc too generous.

This game gains pretty much nothing from grind; grinding is a core gameplay loop (think random item gathering) and it has to serve a purpose otherwise it's extra meaningless, the same way "leveling up" is often meaningless in games, this game included, but I digress. The current choice for those defaults serves a few purposes:
- reduces grind
- 2x for everything it affects is a simple multiplier that can be turned on and off by the main checkbox (so for the average user, it's a straightforward 2x for everything on/off)
- users who want a more nuanced combination of multipliers can do so in the Advanced Options
- a feature that is on but then its default is 1x so there's no change is counter-intuitive

Tzepish: No Heal At Level Up to be on by default.

This is a compelling argument. My concern is that healing at level up is such a common mechanic in games, not having it is counter-intuitive to past experience, and it adds some amount of excitement to otherwise unexciting level ups. But encouraging consumable use is worthwhile, given that it's a sizable gameplay mechanic that is easily ignored (or actively avoided because consumables suck).

I'm still on the fence, though admittedly leaning toward on by default. Higher stack sizes being on by default is also to encourage their use, even if it makes things "easier"; the objective is to just get players to use consumables at all.

Tzepish: L and R hotkeys swap feature on by default.

Not happening. The option's available to flip it and my preference is the current. The only part of your argument that speaks to me is regarding the vanilla game precedent on the weapon/spell level menus, but what I'll likely do is add an option to invert the menu controls so they match.

The choice of L for quick spells is to create an alternating hand pattern: L, Y/X, DPad, B, DPad, B (if quick items is ever implemented, it'd be A added to Y/X/A)

Then block gets the leftover.

Tzepish: MP display in the HUD.

The HUD is very very annoying to modify. Improving it is on my to-do list, but low priority given the massive amount of work it will take.

Tzepish: I wish there was some supporting UI when assigning backup weapons and spell hotkeys.

Me too. I know what I want to do, but doing it is extremely difficult and time consuming. I've started on it a handful of times, but never followed through.

Tzepish: Faster Chest Opening.

One of the things I didn't make. I've never actually even looked at how it works. Polishing it up would be worthwhile, just not something I've ever gotten to.

Tzepish: Functional Fashion, default equipment.

The intent is to use it with No_Default_Equipment. This keeps the classic character appearances until you equip them, at which point you (hopefully) marvel at the sudden color change. Anecdotally, this has played out with more than one of my playtesters on their first time, so I don't intend to change it.

Tzepish: Mimic Box Rewards.

Pretty sure vanilla behavior is to be supremely disappointing. It's off by default because 9999 seems like way too much gold, probably, and I haven't set out to balance test it. I may be being too cautious, but conversely, it's trivial for a user to flip that checkbox on if a lottery mechanic suits their fancy.

Tzepish: Faerie Coconut and Relocalized.

Sounds like kethinov's on board.

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200420
« Reply #1356 on: April 24, 2020, 09:14:48 pm »
Update: I am 51% of the way through the preliminary translation.  Good news: I was able to enlist a friend who lives in Japan check over the text, which gives us another Japanese speaker looking things over.  I will work as much as I can over the weekend, but even if I finish the preliminary translation, there will be a lot of rewriting and checking to do.

Tzepish

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200420
« Reply #1357 on: April 25, 2020, 12:49:57 am »
While the following will seem a bit terse, I'm interested in discussion, not just having the final word. If you can convince me of the merits of an idea that I seem to be dismissing, please do. Keep in mind that I prioritize my preferences when something is subjective (I'm doing this for fun).

Of course, thanks for the thorough reply! I don't feel particularly strongly about any of these, and you've convinced me on maybe half of them.


Swap the Javelin's Strong and Weak attacks.
The biggest problem with the current setup is that the Javelin used to be "the weapon you throw all the time", but now it's "the weapon you have to do something special to throw", since a neutral attack is a bit harder to do than a dpad attack. Now it's not as fun to use because I have to take special effort to throw it, or else it just feels like another melee weapon. It's a change to the identity of the weapon, and one that is unwelcome because now it's a bit less unique.

But I also feel like, psychologically, dpad attacks "feel" like "farther" attacks, basically in the same way I "feel" like magic is on L and weapon is on R because the menus suggest it. It's a tiny thing that can help the user learn the game a bit better. But my gameplay complaint above is the thing I care most about. Heck, the Boomerang's dpad and neutral attacks also don't obey the "dpad = farther" thing, but I support it the way it is because it's so much better for gameplay.


The Bow's neutral attack is a bit crazy for a noncharged attack.
I mostly meant this aesthetically - firing three arrows simultaneously into the sky to have them land on your opponent reads more like a super move to me than a standard attack. But I also have a gameplay complaint with it - since it's a neutral attack, I can't tell for sure that I fired it in the right direction, and because the arrows leave the screen before returning, it takes a little while for the game to confirm to me that I actually did (or didn't).


Attacking Requires Full Stamina.
I think you would still want the character flash and confirmation sound, especially if the player opts to keep the default Stamina regen time, which is pretty long. This option would just be a safety for those who don't even want the option of doing an accidental penalty swing.


x2 xp and x2 luc is too generous.
I agree that it'd be a negative experience to check a box for more XP and Luc, but find that it doesn't work because you had to go into this other menu and change some numbers first. The only way my suggestion would work would be if you lumped all the anti-grinding features together in a single checkbox that was essentially called "Anti-Grinding", and the description said it uses all the multipliers - then you'd have the freedom to use x1's if you wanted to.

I was also suggesting this not because I want to resurrect grinding, but because even without grinding x2 caused the game to become easier and easier as I progressed, to the point where the challenge I enjoyed at the beginning disappeared as I steamrolled the enemies. I at first tried to change these to 1.5 but the interface didn't seem to like decimal values. I agree that the game is way too grindy, but x2 felt like an overkill correction. And since the interface wouldn't accept decimal values, I found other ways to enhance xp and luc (keeping x2 xp and luc for bosses, using the more generous chests feature, etc.)


No Heal At Level Up to be on by default.
I knew this would be a controversial one. Turning it off by default is one way to suggest to the user that the game really is a better experience without it. It's a catch-22 though, because the player may find it odd or surprising that it's turned off by default, whereas leaving it on by default means most players probably wouldn't think to remove something that benefits them.


L and R hotkeys swap feature on by default.
I'll try this again :-) (though again, I doubt I feel as strongly about this as you do).

The R button is easier to hit in general, or at least, I assume it is for most players. When spell hotkeys are on L, that tiny extra bit of thought and difficulty is enough to discourage me from using them. With spell hotkeys on R though, I actually do use them (but only for Primm, because Popoi's just aren't fast enough, having to hit X as well).

However, with guard on L, something happens to me psychologically that helps me to actually use the button. Using "the movement hand" to guard feels like "turtling up" - like it's a "Stop doing things!" input. This helps me remember to do it more often. It was a surprise to me because I was like "of course I want to use R, that's easier than L", but after trying it, I found both guard and spell hotkeys benefited from the change.

But I'm just throwing this out there because it was my experience. I also think swapping the positions of magic and weapons xp on the levels screen is a great idea.


Functional Fashion, default equipment.
Yeah, I actually switched to No Default Equipment for this reason. However, No Default Equipment is similar to No Heal at Levelup - it's a better experience, but I don't think many players will realize that ahead of time and decide to take something away from themselves. Also, it's in a completely different section in the interface than Functional Fashion, so the player may not necessarily make the connection. So I'm predicting this all adds up to the "default" experience being an orange Randi for many players, which just isn't as aesthetic as his default blue and it gives the wrong first impression of the character.


Default names.
I hear ya. I'm one of those players that always uses the default names so that it's easier to cement "the" story of the game in my mind, and so that I have a shared language with others about the game. For games that start you with a blank name, like this one (and Persona 5), for me it's "time to google to see if this character has a canon name!" :-)

LightBaneX

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200420
« Reply #1358 on: April 25, 2020, 08:17:31 pm »
I have an opinion on a few of these.

Tzepish

Switch javelin attacks
I like the current javelin. It feels like a spear I can throw, which is what a javelin is. Also, it feels.. correct? By that I mean it feels like if I was running at the enemy with my javelin, I would thrust it at them, not throw it at their face point blank. The current implementation feels great to me.

Bow attack
I am not a huge fan of the bow attack myself. It certainly looks cool though, it just feels awkward to me that's all. Personally, I think I would rather it have an attack that does the opposite of the whips attack. One of the whip attacks draws enemies closer. Maybe one of the bows attacks can push them away, then the other would be the standard shoot.

Quick spell keys
Something like you described exists, I have seen it before somewhere... I gotta find it though.
Here it is: http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php?topic=20093.msg282832#msg282832

After thinking about what was said about magic by you and queue though... I think for me personally, I feel magic would feel a lot better if the quick spell removed targeting. By default, it would automatically cast on the enemy closest to you(or it could work with "tagging" casting on the last enemy you hit, otherwise it would be random). and buff magic would automatically target the whole party. But that is likely way too much work. It's just me being slightly nitpicky. I think what we have right now is already a million times better than going into the ring menu for it. So I am not complaining. And once you memorize what you set, it's all good.

Switch L and R
I like the way is right now.

Attacking requires full stamina
This is something that is interesting to me. It would be fun to combine with the double stamina regen mod too. It would remove any sort of stunlocking you can do in turbo, or even in base game with 1 damage hits. While also keeping the rhythm of the originals gameplay in tact. Actually this is pretty much SD3 gameplay. If you go that far, I would also add in slowing down your movement after a swing, similar to charging your weapon, until your stamina is full again.

Queue

Quote
If I ever get around to it, something I've wanted to do is add items as hotkey-able, selected via the boy as the character ostensibly using them instead of magic.
That's a really cool idea. I have thought of some ways to make the boy more interesting to play as. My personal idea was to give the boy some MP and give him all the saber spells as self target magic only. It just seems like it would be his thing. But that would leave a lot of holes you would need to creatively fill for the girl. The only thing I can think of is giving her a 1mp weak snowball attack from undine to replace the saber. Like dropping an actual snowman on the enmy to do damage, or just a spell that turns an enemy into a snowman. But that probably requires quite a bit of work. But I really like the item user idea though.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200420
« Reply #1359 on: April 26, 2020, 09:29:20 pm »
@Queue

Okay, I took a look at the event shortcuts you've made, and I'm... confused.  Starting with Generous Gold Chest,

Code: [Select]
%OFF% Event67E.Generous_Gold_Chests.amount ' 1000gp Chest
ADR.16 #0x07D0 ' 2000

%OFF% Event67E.Generous_Gold_Chests.text
TEXT _ _ ^F o u n d _ 2 0 0 0 _ ^G ^P !

I get that Event67E is necessary, but what about the ".Generous_Gold_Chests.<xxx>" part?  Does that mean that you created a macro specifically for Generous Gold Chest hack?  And what about .<xxx> part?  Does that link to another part in the document?  For example, would you be able to do something like, "%OFF% Event134.Missable_Spear_Fix.text" and put random text or something?

It's great that the events are labeled, and therefore I know what the events do, but I don't quite get how to use the macros to create your own patch.  For example, the Neko shopping... it was:

Code: [Select]
'[Event 1DF - Various Nekos in the Beginning]
@OFF $C98144
'TEXT ^N ^E ^K ^O : ^M e o w , _ b u s y _ t r a v e l e r s ! \n
\event \flag== FA 01 ' Initial Neko Shop
TEXT ^N ^E ^K ^O : ^I _ h a v e _ i t e m s , _ n y a ! \n
@OFF $C98195
'\event \goto 301
\event \goto 4F1

But can I just do this, and it'll automatically adjust?

Code: [Select]
'[Event 1DF - Various Nekos in the Beginning]
%OFF% Event1DF.text  <<------------------------------- do I use .text?  .amount?  .set?
'TEXT ^N ^E ^K ^O : ^M e o w , _ b u s y _ t r a v e l e r s ! \n
\event \flag== FA 01 ' Initial Neko Shop
TEXT ^N ^E ^K ^O : ^I _ h a v e _ i t e m s , _ n y a ! \n
%OFF% Event1DF.set
'\event \goto 301
\event \goto 4F1

Maybe I just suck at understanding stuff.