News: 11 March 2016 - Forum Rules
Current Moderators - DarkSol, KingMike, MathOnNapkins, Azkadellia, Danke

Author Topic: The Analogue Super NT really outdoes all current SNES Emulation?  (Read 1538 times)

Kallisto

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 459
    • View Profile
Because if the claims are true..then what were we all doing wrong in the beginning to the present?

Isao Kronos

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1149
  • Dogman
    • View Profile
Re: The Analogue Super NT really outdoes all current SNES Emulation?
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2018, 04:08:00 pm »
the who what now?

Kallisto

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 459
    • View Profile
Re: The Analogue Super NT really outdoes all current SNES Emulation?
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2018, 04:22:59 pm »
Description:

A reimagining of perhaps the greatest video game system of all time. Engineered with an FPGA. No emulation. 1080p. Zero lag. Total accuracy. The Super Nt is not a plug n' play toy. It is the definitive way to explore Nintendo's 16-bit era. Compatible with the 2,200+ SNES and Super Famicom game cartridge library. Explore and re-live one of the greatest video game systems of all time with no compromises.

My thoughts:

Apparently review sources are saying this thing is the real deal, and which emulation has been struggling to actually achieve. Also the SNES games are very good looking visually without all the sprite appearance issues that certain emulation has been struggling to clean up for current HDTVs.

filler

  • RHDN Patreon Supporter!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 801
  • "WINNERS DON'T SELL REPROS"
    • View Profile
    • Filler's Translation Projects
Re: The Analogue Super NT really outdoes all current SNES Emulation?
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2018, 05:31:08 pm »
My Life in Gaming has a good rundown (https://youtu.be/d_OW_t9RXEM), but it reminds me of the kind of things folks who get really worked up over quantifiable differences in multi-plats use to justify their console war. I think latency is supposed to be better with the solution they are using, but it's 6, 12/2 to me.

I think the best thing about it is they didn't steal an emulator against its ULA/license this time and actually hired someone to write something custom.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 07:00:25 pm by filler »

tvtoon

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 332
    • View Profile
Re: The Analogue Super NT really outdoes all current SNES Emulation?
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2018, 06:26:42 pm »
Because if the claims are true..then what were we all doing wrong in the beginning to the present?
There was nothing wrong with emulation back then and now, it is just the natural aspect of the game "evolving".

Good enough controllable circuitry is finally getting on the rages and people are proving it can withstand the test.

But first, we need someone that can proof this product can pull Morita Shougi and the likes without problems, or everything will get crappy like those Genesis from Atmel. :D

Starscream

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 449
    • View Profile
Re: The Analogue Super NT really outdoes all current SNES Emulation?
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2018, 09:09:11 am »
From what I've read, there's no analog video, so that's still an advantage of software emulation.

Nightcrawler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5716
    • View Profile
    • Nightcrawler's Translation Corporation
Re: The Analogue Super NT really outdoes all current SNES Emulation?
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2018, 11:43:52 am »
It's apples and oranges here. I will try and explain for the non-technical if I can.

All of the emulators you run on your PC and other devices are software emulators. They try and reproduce the behavior and interaction between everything entirely via software. It's a big program trying to do the job of many components and tie in your device's input and output. They are subject to lag no matter how well designed because many things in software can't happen in parallel, input and output translation takes time, and your video and audio is subject to constraints like APIs, drivers, OS, monitor refresh rates, etc. The environment is totally different from the original system. There is a lot of translation going on to bridge your PC or device to the emulated behavior of the SNES even in the best emulator.

An FPGA (field programmable gate array) is basically an integrated circuit containing banks of electronics and programmable pathways. Even though it's 'programmable', it's really just setting up a description of how the electronics are configured/connected. That subsequently dictates what the electronics will end up doing. Hence, they are 'programmed' (configured) with a special hardware description language (HDL) rather than a software language. FPGAs are not processors. So, you can set up the banks of electronics to connect and function in a certain way. There is no software executing. It's all real time-time electronic component execution. Things can execute in parallel in real-time like the original electronics, and there is no lag to speak of. There is no input or output translation going on (some notable exceptions exist like hardware HDMI out). The circuits can be set up to mimic the original SNES board. It can take the same inputs and output the same signals. It's a bit simpler in overall design compared to an emulator because of this. Until recently, FPGAs that were large enough and fast enough to handle the complexities of the SNES hardware did not exist or were not cost effective. That is why these types of products didn't show up until more recently.

With that said, they are both subject to the same type of behavioral flaws. Both emulators and FPGA designs must be based on reverse engineered information of the SNES. If this information is not 100% accurate, you will have flaws running games on your emulator or FPGA. The difference is emulators are implementing behavior in software at all levels, while the FPGA is implementing behavior only at hardware block and/or signal level.

In theory, it may be easier to get 1:1 behavior using the FPGA design over an emulator because you have much less you need to deal with, and you can directly compare electronics operation and signals with an original SNES board side by side. In the ideal world, an ideal emulator and ideal FPGA design would show no difference other than lag though. However, we don't live in an ideal world, nothing is perfect, and you will need to be the judge! Maybe you'll like the apple, or maybe you'll like the orange, but both are good SNES fruits to have!

I hope this helped and didn't further confuse you! ;D
TransCorp - Over 20 years of community dedication.
Dual Orb 2, Wozz, Emerald Dragon, Tenshi No Uta, Glory of Heracles IV SFC/SNES Translations

KingMike

  • Forum Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6578
  • *sigh* A changed avatar. Big deal.
    • View Profile
Re: The Analogue Super NT really outdoes all current SNES Emulation?
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2018, 12:12:05 pm »
Been reading on byuu's forum for quite awhile on this.

He himself supported the device but does not support this marketing spin. It's still an emulator, even if it claims to not be one. I don't know the specifics of it, but it's still emulating even if not in the same sense other clone devices and PC emulators. (as I understand, it is more like emulating individual components of the console in parallel than one program emulating everything at once?)
"My watch says 30 chickens" Google, 2018

SCD

  • RHDN Patreon Supporter!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 567
  • SPOOOOON!
    • View Profile
Re: The Analogue Super NT really outdoes all current SNES Emulation?
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2018, 12:54:11 pm »
I'm waiting for someone to make a legit HDMI mod for the actual SNES console.

I'm also waiting for someone to dump the Super Turrican Director's Cut ROM as well.

Psyklax

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 742
    • View Profile
    • Psyklax Translations
Re: The Analogue Super NT really outdoes all current SNES Emulation?
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2018, 02:54:19 pm »
The simple answer for the non-diehard is that SNES9x is perfectly adequate to play most games, bsnes is near-perfect to play everything, and the Super NT is ever so slightly better but costs a damn sight more. But you'll never beat a real SNES.

I'm waiting for someone to make a legit HDMI mod for the actual SNES console.

Pfft, no thanks. If you don't have a CRT for your 8- and 16-bit consoles, you're doing it wrong.

Here's how I see it:

- if you wanna play SNES as it should be, get an SD2SNES and play a real SNES with RGB on a CRT.
- if you don't have a CRT and you have lots of money to spare (yet for some reason won't use that money to invest in the step above), get a Super NT.
- if you don't have a CRT and you DON'T have lots of money to spare, plug your PC into your HDTV and use bsnes.
- if you don't have a good PC, use SNES9x.

Simple! :)

FAST6191

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2374
    • View Profile
Re: The Analogue Super NT really outdoes all current SNES Emulation?
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2018, 03:41:51 pm »
I reckon you could improve upon the original SNES hardware, from a practical perspective it was surpassed for most games (and the exceptions were seldom that interesting) many years ago at this point by virtue of savestates, cheats and all the other stuff emulators bring to the table.

Similarly we have seen the chips themselves decapped before now and their entire contents laid bare
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWqBmmPQP40
If you literally have the transistor pattern programmed into your device then yeah. At this point you are arguing over manufacturer tolerances if you feel compelled to continue this, and I am not sure how much that plays for the SNES -- for the original xbox (its often sub par RAM chips saw notable variation in certain games), and maybe if you are struggling to see the forest for the trees and as such are involved in smash brothers competitive circles with the gamecube pads there, there is something but eh otherwise.

Equally enough clock cycles or instructions per cycle, some parallelism and some good coding and you are down to worrying about the latency on your screen as far as emulation is concerned (though agreed for all else CRTs had issues with, see link in the next section, they were super low latency). Again I reckon for most practical purposes we have been at that for a while and BSNES/higan was icing on the cake.

On CRT and foibles thereof
http://bogost.com/games/a_television_simulator/
Nothing stopping you from adding that to your HDMI output.