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Author Topic: Need translation advice on a line of dialogue  (Read 853 times)

DragonSpikeXIII

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Need translation advice on a line of dialogue
« on: January 23, 2018, 09:41:35 am »
これ以上、誰の好きにもさせない。
Kore ijō, dare no sukini mo sasenai.

Translation by BRPXQZME, but still too literal.
From here on out, he won’t let anyone do as they like.

Here's what I know for sure, put literally:
(From now on), ???'s ??? (anymore) (won't let).

My attempt at a dramatically sound version of that, taking limitations into account:
He's going to impose his will on everyone.

Am I on the right track?



FAST6191

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Re: Need translation advice on a line of dialogue
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2018, 09:35:08 am »
Do we have any context?

My Japanese is not up to the task but the "too literal" line would make sense in any military type line. If discipline got a bit lax, or it got real for whatever reason, then that would be fine for an officer relaying words of a higher up and your later line would be a poorer choice. Same for criminal organisation or a big business where again discipline is not great or otherwise they have a need for a shakeup.
Magical super dictator on the other hand and the latter line would be more dramatic and probably more suitable for the context of most games wherein such a character exists.

DragonSpikeXIII

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Re: Need translation advice on a line of dialogue
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2018, 09:54:43 am »
The context is that the speaker has just left the man's terrorist organization, this little part is from the beginning of the mission. The speaker, she, mentions that he's preparing to use his trump card, a really powerful airplane, on this big floating city as a way to demonstrate his destructive power and that he means business.

The literal line isn't wrong but it doesn't work in context, it's a perfect example of how going literal can hurt rather than help. This man has given mankind, or at least the people of that country, two choices, to cyberize themselves or die.

Just for completion's sake, after this specific line she says to the player something like "So, let's go find him, shall we?", implying that they're going to stop him, which is indeed what we do since we've left his group by this point.

In the end what I'm looking for is a check and maybe some clarification on the "dare no sukini" part, which is kind of confusing to me, usually it has the "mo" character after it, that's everyone/anyone. And if my translation actually translates the message faithfully, I'm still learning.

FAST6191

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Re: Need translation advice on a line of dialogue
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2018, 10:10:50 am »
Again my Japanese is not up to the task but unhinged, or at least with vastly different philosophy, person with disproportionately large destructive potential seeking control and possibly fundamental change of a population, one either resisting or just not necessarily receptive, would make the latter line the more fitting from where I sit.
I don't know that I have ever seen it applied to a futuristic/scifi type setting in a game before, as opposed to an interdimensional wizard or something, but if indeed "any sufficiently advanced tech is indistinguishable from magic" is in play then yeah.

DragonSpikeXIII

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Re: Need translation advice on a line of dialogue
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2018, 10:32:41 am »
Any input is appreciated, so thanks for that. BTW here's the clip with that scene: https://youtu.be/M6ftTtVYpwQ?t=4m1s

EDIT: I forgot to mention, the same writer Dai Sato, wrote an episode of Cowboy Bebop revolving around the same idea of a cult trying to get people to leave their bodies by transferring their consciousness to the internet. This game came out only a year later, so I view it as a prototype for this game's plot. The episode is called Brain Scratch.

filler

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Re: Need translation advice on a line of dialogue
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2018, 02:21:33 pm »
Is it just that it should be "I", and not "he"? There's no subject specified.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 07:13:15 pm by filler »

DragonSpikeXIII

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Re: Need translation advice on a line of dialogue
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2018, 09:19:30 pm »
The first version of this script uses "him" and it was made by a then already experienced fan-translator, so I'm leaning more towards it now, but if "dare no sukini" can mean both "...him do as he likes." or just "...anyone do as they like." then I'm gonna need some real confirmation from someone who knows Japanese, because from what I've seen "dare" does not mean "him/her" or "I" (EDIT: ignore this last part, the subject is indeed implied). It's this part that's confusing me.

So for now I'm following the original translation and looking for ways to clean or punch it up.

EDIT: going for "I" and having her say "I won't let anyone do as they like anymore." could be right too, even if way too literal, but I'm not sure I can make that call.

Anyway, here's the whole exchange, as in the video above:

(my version, where "dare" is everyone, and the subject is "him")
Dision. . . that man.
He put Rena on the Night Raven (the super weapon),
and said he’ll sink Megafloat (the floating city).
From here on (out), he's going to impose his will on everyone.  (in the original translation: From here on out, he won't let anyone do as they like.)
So, let's go find him, shall we?

(version that uses "dare" as anyone, and the subject is "I)
Dision. . . that man.
He put Rena on the Night Raven,
and said he’ll sink Megafloat.
From here on (out), I won't let anyone do as they like.
So, let's go find him, shall we?

I think both the original version and my take work, but if you change the subject to "I" the line ends up sounding a lot worse and random, does anyone know if this is actually a Japanese expression that has a nuance that you don't get if you read the text literally?



« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 10:02:07 pm by DragonSpikeXIII »

weissvulf

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Re: Need translation advice on a line of dialogue
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2018, 11:25:46 pm »
I'm not aware of any connotations attached to this particular phrase, but I have seen これ以上 as an introduction to a 'determined oath' a few times - as in "from this day forward, I will never go hungry again!'

A search for 誰の好きにもさせない provides several contextual examples supporting the 'I' version. In the sense of 'I won't let someone do whatever they want'. I didn't see any usages referring to everyone's freedoms as in 'no one can do what they want'. You might try such a search to get more contextual usage examples.

filler

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Re: Need translation advice on a line of dialogue
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2018, 11:38:32 pm »
Look, I'm no expert. I've only been doing this for about 15 years as a hobby, and have only passed my N3 so far. I'm not a fan of your perspective on the literalness or non-literalness of BRPXQZME's translation. This isn't an easy language to work with.

This is an awkward wording that we would not use in English. If you want my take on the literal translation of this, it's as follows.

これ以上、誰の好きにもさせない。
any further, to no matter whose liking, will not let/make/have them do.

If we look at a similar "誰の" phrase, "誰の目にも", it means "anyone can see that/it's obvious that". However, "誰の" is literally "whose", and this is like saying "to no matter whose eyes".

誰の好きにも therefore is something like "to no matter whose liking". Or, "to anyone's liking".

This sentence is missing any topic/subject indicator "wa/ga". So are the preceding sentences. This normally means the topic/subject is implied and obvious from context, but I feel like it becomes a game of find-the-topic sometimes.

Normally this means that "I" is implied. However, we did start of with "that man", and the sentences about Rena on the Night Raven, and saying they plan to sink the city seem appropriately attributed to him.

Personally, I think the implication in this sentence is:

これ以上、(私は) 誰の好きにもさせない。
"I won't let them do it anymore (I might say "won't let them get away with it"), no matter who likes it."

I feel like the original translation is more like:

これ以上、(彼は) 誰にも好きにさせない。
"From here on out, he lets no one do as they like."

Perhaps that's the implication of "これ以上、誰の好きにもさせない。" and I'm overthinking it. That's my take on it though.

DragonSpikeXIII

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Re: Need translation advice on a line of dialogue
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2018, 01:13:41 am »
I'm not aware of any connotations attached to this particular phrase, but I have seen これ以上 as an introduction to a 'determined oath' a few times - as in "from this day forward, I will never go hungry again!'

A search for 誰の好きにもさせない provides several contextual examples supporting the 'I' version. In the sense of 'I won't let someone do whatever they want'. I didn't see any usages referring to everyone's freedoms as in 'no one can do what they want'. You might try such a search to get more contextual usage examples.

Alright, that's a good step in the right direction, my research turned up nothing but I know enough that "I" remains very much a possibility. And thanks for the insight on the first part, that's more like I'm what I'm trying to do, dramatically speaking.

Look, I'm no expert. I've only been doing this for about 15 years as a hobby, and have only passed my N3 so far. I'm not a fan of your perspective on the literalness or non-literalness of BRPXQZME's translation. This isn't an easy language to work with.

This is an awkward wording that we would not use in English. If you want my take on the literal translation of this, it's as follows.

これ以上、誰の好きにもさせない。
any further, to no matter whose liking, will not let/make/have them do.

If we look at a similar "誰の" phrase, "誰の目にも", it means "anyone can see that/it's obvious that". However, "誰の" is literally "whose", and this is like saying "to no matter whose eyes".

誰の好きにも therefore is something like "to no matter whose liking". Or, "to anyone's liking".

This sentence is missing any topic/subject indicator "wa/ga". So are the preceding sentences. This normally means the topic/subject is implied and obvious from context, but I feel like it becomes a game of find-the-topic sometimes.

Normally this means that "I" is implied. However, we did start of with "that man", and the sentences about Rena on the Night Raven, and saying they plan to sink the city seem appropriately attributed to him.

Personally, I think the implication in this sentence is:

これ以上、(私は) 誰の好きにもさせない。
"I won't let them do it anymore (I might say "won't let them get away with it"), no matter who likes it."

I feel like the original translation is more like:

これ以上、(彼は) 誰にも好きにさせない。
"From here on out, he lets no one do as they like."

Perhaps that's the implication of "これ以上、誰の好きにもさせない。" and I'm overthinking it. That's my take on it though.

Believe me, if you saw what the whole script that he made looked like, you would be critical too. And I know how hard it is to be translate from Japanese, I've been doing some fan-translation work myself for this game too, but I've always respected fan-translators even before this. He said it himself that he wasn't satisfied with his script, with many parts being only being machine translated (being too literal is only one of many possible problems). There are some brilliant moments sprinkled throughout, it's just that when it was time to finish the work he called it quits and left. I'm still willing to give him the benefit of the doubt though, that's why I was trying to stick to his stuff first.

That said, thank you for your explanation on the absence of a topic/subject marker (which I've read about in the past so I'm familiar with the concept) and for adding subjects in the right place. "dare no suki ni" makes sense to me now and I agree that the whole line doesn't sound like anything we might use.

Also, I kind of like that "I won't let them get away with it", with "him" I think it's even better, the character sounds like she's saying something like that too. My version is overwritten by comparison and having lines be quick and to the point whenever possible is always preferable to me.

weissvulf

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Re: Need translation advice on a line of dialogue
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2018, 02:48:08 am »
This was one of the web-quotes I mentioned. Very much agreeing with filler's take:
「アンタなんかに勝手に持ってかせるものか! 私の・・・私だけの自由だ! 誰の好きにもさせない! 誰にも・・・コイツ自身にだって許さない!」

DragonSpikeXIII

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Re: Need translation advice on a line of dialogue
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2018, 06:52:00 am »
This was one of the web-quotes I mentioned. Very much agreeing with filler's take:
「アンタなんかに勝手に持ってかせるものか! 私の・・・私だけの自由だ! 誰の好きにもさせない! 誰にも・・・コイツ自身にだって許さない!」

Alright then, changes made, thank you guys!

filler

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Re: Need translation advice on a line of dialogue
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2018, 11:13:50 am »
This was one of the web-quotes I mentioned. Very much agreeing with filler's take:
「アンタなんかに勝手に持ってかせるものか! 私の・・・私だけの自由だ! 誰の好きにもさせない! 誰にも・・・コイツ自身にだって許さない!」
Yeah, I love how if you search for this exact phrase in Google this exchange from Ace Combat is the third hit. ;)
https://www28.atwiki.jp/acacac/pages/55.html

So, I was thinking this could probably be simplified down a bit. Interestingly I found a single instance of an English translation of this line that I think corroborates our suspicions.

Thanks to this search hit (http://harusuki3.sakura.ne.jp/haruhi_serihu_pre.html) I realized that this phrase appears in the light novel "The Intrigues of Haruhi Suzumiya" which I happen to have translated on Kindle. I searched for the preceding line "I am here", and found our line in question as "I won't let them do as they please.".

So there we go. It seems clearly, "I won't let them do as they please/I won't let them get away with it" captures the intention here.

DragonSpikeXIII

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Re: Need translation advice on a line of dialogue
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2018, 11:47:12 am »
Yeah, I love how if you search for this exact phrase in Google this exchange from Ace Combat is the third hit. ;)
https://www28.atwiki.jp/acacac/pages/55.html

This happens more often than I like, usually it's a bad sign that means I have to keep looking for references. :banghead:

That website is what made this project feasible too btw, so it's kind of funny going from it, to the first translation, and then be taken back to the source once again.

So, I was thinking this could probably be simplified down a bit. Interestingly I found a single instance of an English translation of this line that I think corroborates our suspicions.

Thanks to this search hit (http://harusuki3.sakura.ne.jp/haruhi_serihu_pre.html) I realized that this phrase appears in the light novel "The Intrigues of Haruhi Suzumiya" which I happen to have translated on Kindle. I searched for the preceding line "I am here", and found our line in question as "I won't let them do as they please.".

So there we go. It seems clearly, "I won't let them do as they please/I won't let them get away with it" captures the intention here.

This is just phenomenal, I've had the luck of finding exact phrases in other works that have official translations before and it's hard to find a better kind of reference. I might change it again to what you found but regardless the line now works as intended, no doubt.

:beer: