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Author Topic: Ye Olde English.  (Read 841 times)

Chronosplit

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Ye Olde English.
« on: November 08, 2017, 05:30:32 pm »
Hopefully this is the right area.  This isn't exactly the question asked around here. :P

I'm looking to start a patch for Chrono Trigger that fixes Frog's "ye olde english" to use the correct verbiage.  I like to think that I'm actually pretty decent at this sort of thing, but I was wondering if anyone knew a website or other source where I can check to make sure I'm using the correct olde speech all the time.

Malias

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Re: Ye Olde English.
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2017, 11:49:13 pm »
First, you're looking for Middle English, not Old English;  Old English is nearly incomprehensible and is not what Frog uses.

That being said, what exactly are you looking for?  If you're just concerned about pronouns and verb endings, Wikipedia's page (Middle_English) might be all you need.  Otherwise, there are various Middle English dictionaries online, easily Google-able.

If you're looking for something more like a translation service, I didn't see much.  There's this, but it appears to be broken.
The great achievement is to lose one's reason for no reason, and to let my lady know that if I can do this without cause, what should I do if there were cause?
     ~Don Quixote~

Psyklax

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Re: Ye Olde English.
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2017, 07:05:14 am »
First, you're looking for Middle English, not Old English;  Old English is nearly incomprehensible and is not what Frog uses.

Actually, there are five types: Old English, Middle English, Early Modern English, Modern English and Ye Olde English, the latter being a bastardisation of the language by people trying to make something sound old without knowing how it properly works. :D But anyway, when people say "ye olde" aren't they usually referring to EME, ie Shakespeare? Sorry to say I'm not familiar with Chrono Trigger, but Dragon Warrior uses a very EME style in its translation.

Chronosplit

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Re: Ye Olde English.
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2017, 10:00:29 am »
I wasn't completely clear, sorry about that!  My ideas are all in the early planning stage and I'm not terribly used to talking about these subjects (I promise that much reading will be done to make sure this is all done right).

Woolsey was shooting more towards a bastardization (I think so anyway, he stated that with more time it would've been better), but what I'm looking for is an in-depth book or web source for Early Modern English and how it's written.  No machine translators either.  I want to shoot for that direction, as using something like the NES Dragon Warrior games' style feels like the best way to go for this.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 10:31:44 am by Chronosplit »

Psyklax

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Re: Ye Olde English.
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2017, 01:56:26 pm »
Well, Wikipedia is always a good starting point:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Modern_English#Grammar

Early Modern doesn't have too many big grammatical differences, but here are the main ones:

- it marks the point when the second person pronoun 'thou' fell out of use (in standard English: some English dialects still use it though);
- the alternate conjugation of third person tenses disappeared;
- 'ye' and 'you' becomes simply 'you'.

So second person (thou) adds '(e)st' (thou workest), third person singular (he/she/it) adds either 's' or '(e)th' (he works/worketh), third person plural (they) adds '(e)th' (they worketh). Also, the other second person pronoun (you) is 'ye' in its subject form, but 'you' in object form.

Examples from the King James Bible:
"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?" (Psalm 22:1)
"Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them." (Psalm 22:4, note the past simple still adds 'st')
"For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard." (Psalm 22:24)
"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." (Genesis 3:3)
"And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the Lord your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians."
(Exodus 6:7)

There's a bit of vocabulary difference, of course, but grammatically there's not much more to it than those points. Get them sorted and you'll be okay.

weissvulf

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Re: Ye Olde English.
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2017, 08:19:17 pm »
Aside from the advice already given, I would say the biggest change has been in the application of words as opposed to their definition. You're not likely to find a guide for that because complexity of the subject.

We say:
Man, you're ugly! Get lost. I'm sick of looking at you.

The old ones sayeth:
Forsooth, thy countenance offendeth me much. Get thee hence cow, that mine eye may knoweth joy.

I would recommend browsing Shakespeare and adapting some phrasings to fit the material. But keep in mind, when trying to convey dialects or accents, it's usually advisable to 'sound authentic' rather than 'be authentic'. True authenticity can make text difficult to read and hinder the story flow.  :cookie: