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Author Topic: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R  (Read 2150 times)

pianohombre

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3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
« on: September 18, 2017, 03:22:50 pm »
Alas, Samus returns. I was going to post on another thread but no comments for 60 days  :banghead:

Looks like it's even pretty close to AM2R, so if you don't own a 3DS, you could try searching google for a copy, since Nintendo sent a Cease and Desist letter and most official releases have been removed.

What I don't get about these stand-alone games, created by Game Maker or what-not, is why re-create an entire engine, and everything from the ground up? They already had Super Metroid, and there's a program to hack the game, plus Metroid Fusion, and Metroid Zero Mission for GBA. Seems like it would be a lot easier to just hack those games than start all over from the beginning. Not sure how flexible Game Maker is, but the AM2R project took a team of people ten years to create. I feel like if they just hacked a game it could have been done in 5 years or less.

I get that some games are in development for 10 years or more, but they eventually release those on the market. For the fan games many times they still release them for free, even after years of work!!
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FAST6191

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Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2017, 06:11:50 pm »
Around here I usually see (and give) the exact opposite advice.
Making a whole new game using an existing one as a base is a silly way to set about things. Probably still even if you have a high end tool to edit the game with.

A remix, a mechanic tweak, a boss rush, a graphics tweak, a music tweak, a control tweak. All good things you should absolutely do as a hack. Full new game, possible but probably harder than making a whole new game.

"team of people ten years"
If this is a weekend hobby (and if you think fan games are a good idea and are using game maker* it probably is) then that already sends timelines up (see also ROM hacking -- not so many here do things as a retirement, unemployment or school holidays project and this is why it can take ages), if as speculated you are also learning game design/code on top of this then it is a miracle anything gets released at all really, if multiple people are in that boat then you get to wait on others to learn and do, these sorts of things take longer to get the ball rolling on than leaving a pub/bar when you have 5 different groups to say goodbye to and even with all that a proper go at this is not a short affair -- all those game code jams don't produce long games unless they use procedural generation as making long games takes ages.

*I have heard of many devs thrashing out a gameplay idea in gamemaker, unity and such (might be resource intensive, somewhat restrictive/weak in what you can make it do easily and not look so hot but they do allow for rapid development if you can handle it) to see if it works so I certainly can't say all there. Not to mention Unity has really upped its game this last year or two.

That said I have no real reverence for fan games. Just seems like a bad idea from a legal perspective, and a stifling one from a game design perspective. Make a clone or a homage or something, and then figure out what is wrong with the game you have cloned and fix that and now we are talking.

Weretindere

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Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2017, 08:17:51 pm »
ROM hax require a different skill set than game making software. It's why there's 200+ "Quests" for Zelda Classic and practically no one caring about haxing Zelda; haxing is harder, more annoying and more legally convoluted. Peeps would also rather learn what it takes to make something they can sell with minimum legal implications, not homebrew that practically no one buys.

As much as I h8 C&D's, I also h8 why anyone would dedicate so much time into making something with unoriginal characters. Give every enemy and the player a slight palette change, armor redesign, rename them and claim it's something else. Once there was a No Mario's Sky, it got a notice, then it was DMCA's Sky, and no one has cared since.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 08:27:49 pm by Weretindere »
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I herd u liek archives so I put an archive in ur archive so u can delet an archive while u delet an archive.

NERV Agent

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Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2017, 10:52:09 pm »
What I don't get about these stand-alone games, created by Game Maker or what-not, is why re-create an entire engine, and everything from the ground up?

Sonic the Hedgehog and Christian Whitehead come to mind.

The original mobile version of Sonic 1 was emulated, and it was terrible.

But Christian Whitehead made his own engine for Sonic CD. Sega noticed, and didn't C&D him. Instead, they hired him to use his engine to port Sonic 1 to mobile devices, and now Sonic 1 on your phone doesn't terribly. Also, widescreen so you don't run into shit because you didn't see it coming on an old 4:3 aspect ratio.

Then he made Sonic 2 on Android which makes use of modern graphics capabilities, and the previously choppy Special Stages are no longer an unplayable fucking mess!

A new engine can take advantage of the capabilities that modern hardware has to offer and yields better results. This is opposed to the game programmer being restricted by the hardware limitations of whatever console that their "old school" style game is based off of.

Also, when the programmer makes a new engine, they know the source code because they made it. If they want to change something, they just have to open the ".cpp" file or whatever and change the script in whatever programming language they were using. This is opposed to the scenario in ROM hacking when you don't have access to the source code, and all you see is binary and do your editing in a hex editor and hope it works.
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Jorpho

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Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2017, 11:14:23 pm »
Seems like it would be a lot easier to just hack those games than start all over from the beginning. Not sure how flexible Game Maker is, but the AM2R project took a team of people ten years to create. I feel like if they just hacked a game it could have been done in 5 years or less.
Hacking will only get you so far.  For instance, has anyone managed to replace Samus's sprite in Super Metroid yet?  The graphics are such a giant mess of limb tiles that the task seems quite insurmountable.  Starting over from scratch offers virtually infinite flexibility.

As much as I h8 C&D's, I also h8 why anyone would dedicate so much time into making something with unoriginal characters. Give every enemy and the player a slight palette change, armor redesign, rename them and claim it's something else. Once there was a No Mario's Sky, it got a notice, then it was DMCA's Sky, and no one has cared since.
But that's just it – no one has cared since, including the gaming public.  If they'd started with a game like DMCA's Sky, no one would have paid it any attention at all.  There might very well be a game just as good as AM2R out there with original characters, armor redesign, etc. that no one has played simply because it got lost in the shuffle, or because the author didn't know how to market the game.  Especially because making memorable and well-illustrated original characters in itself is difficult.
This depresses me. I feel like a goldfish right now...

SleepyFist

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Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2017, 11:31:03 pm »
Little to no programming experience required to start.
Simple drag and drop interface, adding assets is as easy as dropping them onto the window.
no filesize limit
Multiplatform export.
3rd party plugin support(GM or Construct? can't remember)
Offers a smooth way to learn programming basics, ie loops, branches, variables.

It's a beginners tool, but one you can push pretty far with effort.
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Weretindere

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Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2017, 12:56:18 am »
But that's just it – no one has cared since, including the gaming public.  If they'd started with a game like DMCA's Sky, no one would have paid it any attention at all.  There might very well be a game just as good as AM2R out there with original characters, armor redesign, etc. that no one has played simply because it got lost in the shuffle, or because the author didn't know how to market the game.  Especially because making memorable and well-illustrated original characters in itself is difficult.
That would be technically true if No Mario's Sky was actually that great as a game on its own, which it was largely boring after 10 minutes and was seen as a quick meme. I mean, I could compare it to something like Houchou Shoujo Gensoukyoku: Memories of Replica which is a Metroidvania that's hindered by being part of the Yume Nikki fandom who are too busy playing unfinished RPG Maker clones.
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SCD

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Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2017, 05:54:33 am »
I played both games, I actually prefer AM2R over Samus Returns.

I think it plays and feels more like the SNES & GBA Metroid games than the 3DS game does, I also think it has better graphics, gameplay, sound, music and maps in my opinion.

The 3DS game is good, but it has a few problems. I though the melee attack system is annoying, I also thought the maps are a little confusing and complicating to explore, I got lost a couple times, including I also felt the backtracking was kind of a chore to do as well.

In the other games, they made sure the maps are easy to explore and they also made sure the backtracking was fun to do as well.

Another problem with Samus Returns is the game gets a little too hard.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 05:20:43 am by SCD »

SleepyFist

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Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2017, 12:19:06 pm »
That would be technically true if No Mario's Sky was actually that great as a game on its own, which it was largely boring after 10 minutes and was seen as a quick meme. I mean, I could compare it to something like Houchou Shoujo Gensoukyoku: Memories of Replica which is a Metroidvania that's hindered by being part of the Yume Nikki fandom who are too busy playing unfinished RPG Maker clones.
Thanks for letting me know about that, probably would have never picked it out of the sea of other fangames.
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Gideon Zhi

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Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2017, 12:55:10 pm »
I'm not sold on Samus Returns. I like it in concept but I'm super iffy on MercurySteam after playing Mirror of Fate for about an hour. That game was Not Good.

SCD

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Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2017, 01:51:14 pm »
I was skeptic at first, because I was not a big fan of their Castlevania games. But they actually did a good job on Samus Returns, but I recommend downloading AM2R 1.3.3 instead.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 02:46:32 am by SCD »

NERV Agent

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Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2017, 04:51:17 pm »
Hacking will only get you so far.  For instance, has anyone managed to replace Samus's sprite in Super Metroid yet?  The graphics are such a giant mess of limb tiles that the task seems quite insurmountable.

http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/342/
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pianohombre

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Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2017, 06:02:02 pm »
No Mario's Sky, I read, was created in under 72 hours for a contest, so they didn't care much about copyright. It was almost nominated for an award I read.

I happen to like the Metroid series and I typically try and support these game iterations when they are released, so that game companies keep making them (the good ones not the terrible games they market at top price for $59.99 and only change a few things). Otherwise if they aren't supported they will die out like the Earthbound series. Although, I don't really like it when they release exclusive console only games- now there's 4 or 5 systems for each console generation plus the portable section. Who has the time or money to keep up with it all?

Nonetheless, personally watching youtube gameplay vids is a decent substitute, or playing it down the line in a few years or 5 years doesn't necessarily bother me. Whatever 2D/3D or original/remake I don't care just help me get through these boring weekends. NFL season who wants to hack Madden '93?
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Jorpho

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Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2017, 11:25:46 pm »
I reckon since I have the original Game Boy version on my 3DS already, I might as well play that before anything else.  I was concerned that like the original, it might not have aged well and is rather insufferable without such modern conveniences as a proper map – but I've been told that it's actually a fairly linear game.

http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/342/
Oh.  How unexpected.  From the readme:
Quote
Q- How many tiles does Samus have?
A- Over 4,200. Not counting the opening and ending graphics.
This depresses me. I feel like a goldfish right now...

KingMike

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Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2017, 11:47:30 pm »
I do remember Metroid II having something of a balance between exploration aspects within a generally linear structure. (to account for that it was a portable game and you may not exactly carry graph paper around with you to draw a map :P )
The world was mostly split into different regions that I think were referred to officially (or at least by Nintendo Power) as "Phases".

Basically one large hub room filled with acid that reduces as each "phase" of the game was completed, allowing access to the next "phase".
You would have to look around within each Phase to find all the Metroids to unlock the next one.
Even if you don't remember the hub area, the music at least worked as a sound cue (seeing the giant acid pit plus the game's main theme music).
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pianohombre

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Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2017, 02:17:33 pm »
Maybe Super Metroid would be the exception of rom hacking, if her sprite has 4200 tiles. Seems a bit high??

Although, I'd like to get Metroid Zero Mission, or Metroid Fusion on the GBA in the Wii U store. I may just get the GBA advance game and then run it in an emulator, since my GBA was stolen out of my car. Probably should have bought it before the release of Samus Returns, since the prices will most likely temporarily go up during the release.
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KingMike

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Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2017, 02:58:00 pm »
I do have an original Metroid II as well as a 3DS eShop copy. I recall the latter as I was forced to spend my remaining Nintendo Coins when Club Nintendo shut down. Still mad NA never got the SNES Classic Controller. That was the one thing I wanted besides G&W Collection (got part 2 since thankfully someone traded in a CIB Vol 1 to GameStop I could snatch up). (this My Nintendo stuff is stupid. I don't want to do math to figure out if x coins/stars/whatever for y% off game z is a good deal :P )
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SleepyFist

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Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2017, 08:03:07 pm »
I'm starting my new job tomorrow, might pick it up once I get paid and see how it compares to AM2R.
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pianohombre

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Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2017, 03:33:24 pm »
@SleepyFist. Let us know how it is? After 2-4 hours of gameplay give us a little mini-review on here. I'm sure it's up to par with most Metroid games, and will be pretty fun. Even if there's only 10 hours worth of gameplay probably would be worth getting.
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SleepyFist

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Re: 3DS Samus Returns and AM2R
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2017, 05:16:20 pm »
Sure, I'm not the best at reviews but I'll give my opinions on it.
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