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Author Topic: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)  (Read 93972 times)

RetroProf

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There was a point where Working Designs were praised as gods, and any attempt to badmouth them was seen as contrarian. Now Working Designs is seen as a bunch of demons, and any attempt to defend their name is seen as contrarian. Which is the truth? I don't take issue with the idea of these patches, so much as I take issue with the intent of these patches and with a lot of the discussion in this thread. There is this overwhelming belief that Working Designs made a bunch of objective mistakes, but the proof is a bunch of opinions. "I don't like it" is never the same as "this is bad".

I continue to like Working Designs, their localisations (most "authentic" localisations these days are too dry, too wording, and just too long), some of their difficulty changes (Popful Mail was easy even when I played the original), and I respect that they brought over games which most publishers at the time would have ignored.

I wish they had localised more, a lot more. Since now it's left to fan-translators to mop up the forgotten gems.

I also like these patches, because now I'm old and don't have the time to grind for EXP. So it's cool to basically play them on the original easy mode. Especially since these patches are not removing or changing the localisations.

For the record: I personally really dislike "undub" projects. Waste of time reverting them back to Japanese. And whatever you may think of WD's work, the voice acting in their games was pretty much always fantastic. Popful Mail is still godamn hilarious.

GHANMI

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@taikyoku
My takeaway from your post is that:

- You have an opinion (WD games feel better, Japanese developers are hacks, their vision doesn't matter and could be all thrown away, and the games are shitty until WD rescued them from mediocrity with a difficulty hike motivated by disdain of the original and making the game as rental-unfriendly as possible). You think it's not a mere opinion like all normal mortal opinions, but a physical fact above criticism (...despite talking in the first person so much, but go figure).

- You are upset by the opposite opinion (original versions feel better, Japanese developer vision was lost and is interesting and it's a shame to be lost, WD's versions are an inferior experience to the original), how it's discussed at all, how so many people dare have that opinion in the recent years, and how Supper specifically, and I quote, "manufactured an issue that wasn't really there" with his patches, his personal opinions about WD, and this thread. Basically, that he's spreading fake news about WD. You think it's invalid and incorrect, and all lies (even the ones with direct quotes from the Japanese source material, or WD's manuals that state their changes are minimal or nonexistent).

- Beyond their localization, the games themselves are shitty in all aspects, from gameplay to story. Of course you think this is an indisputable fact too, despite how usually when someone says so it's considered a review, which falls under opinion pieces. You invalidate anyone's tastes to the contrary. This also contradicts WD's official narrative that they only handled good games and rejected anything that was poor quality (Lunar Magical School, etc), and that some of the games WD was interested in but didn't ultimately get (Far East of Eden, Phantasy Star 4) are widely considered all-time classics of their respective consoles. So they couldn't all have been "shitty games" that needed the western savior to elevate them from their shittiness.

- Since you used words like research, and bolded some of your reply, it reinforces how important your opinon turned "factual statement" is and how different and unique it is from everything else here.

Oh, for heaven's sake. Why can't we all just get along?

When people are irritated by versions you like and seek other solutions (learning Japanese, patching out the bad changes, retranslating it, complaining about it being unfun to play and its lame writing), this isn't a problem you need to fix (by making them like what YOU like, and any translators/modders seeing the light of how WD is superior and ceasing everything). That's how tastes and opinions work.
Your beloved WD version won't go away. It will be still in piracy sites, the second-hand reseller market, and some like-minded people that share your opinion will spread it all over twitter and youtube. You got yours, so why are you after this alternate version specifically?
You say people shouldn't complain about WD's interpretation of the original JP version. Why are you then complaining here about people's new interpretation of that same original JP version, in a romhacking forum all about new interpretations of existing content?

butane bob

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Quote
how obnoxiously easy the original Silhouette Mirage actually is
I own the original, it's not obnoxiously easy at all.
You really need to settle down mate, maybe this thread isn't for you.

Fionordequester

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I own the original, it's not obnoxiously easy at all.
You really need to settle down mate, maybe this thread isn't for you.

Well, it kinda depends on the person.  Me, for example; I don't even find the English Exile II hard nowadays, as you can see by that video on the previous page :P .

Ceresa

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I restate that if Exile II is the best example you have, a dumb version of an already very dumb game, then you have a lot more work to do. I did a bit more research myself: I can confirm that Popful Mail, Silhouette Mirage, Vay, and Rayearth are all games that clearly benefited from the changes. Already a pretty good list.

What changes did Vay benefit from?

The drastically increased mp costs making it impossible to actually kill more than 2-3 fights in the lategame dungeons without emptying half your mp on bloated 400-500% heal costs?  The reduced enemy exp (70-90% less!) making it worthless to kill anything but the fleebags at late game?  The defense increase that turned an early game boss like the Wind Element from a standard boss battle into a monotonous 20 minute chore requiring you to frequently devote your entire party to using herbs multiple turns in a row when they got hit with the AE lightning while struggling to sneak in an occasional hit to chip away at its massive hp pool?  Paying 20x the gold amount to advance a mandatory plot point, in a town where they added a trap chest that reduces your gold to zero?

NA Vay release was grind outside of town for quick access to inn heals, then run away from all fights in dungeons while saving frequently and reloading if things got bad, while stocking up on hundreds of herbs for the battles where running took multiple turns.  The kind of game that rightly contributes to the modern rpg fan's loathing of random encounters.

JP Vay is kill as much as you can as you go to gain levels naturally while balancing out item use for mp conversion for upcoming bosses, like the other good rpgs of the era such as Dragon Quest 3 onwards, or Phantasy Star 4.

Anyways big thanks to Supper for these patches.  Replayed Vay and the PS Lunars so far.  Enjoyed Vay quite a bit more with this patch, Lunar SSSC felt about the same, mostly because I always killed enough to keep pace with the increased boss level anyways.  Replaying it really made it apparent how much Ghaleon comes off as a childish bitch though, makes me want to try the PSP Lunar to see how Xseed handled him

Since it seems you're moving on from WD, I wonder if you'd consider Legend of Legaia?  Apparently the NA version has something absurd like double enemy def and reduced exp/gold, making it a bit of a slog.  One of my Euro friends loved the hell out of this game and always wondered how he could stand it until I learned of that.

duiz

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I'm trying to patch Lunar Silver Star using the latest patch with an iso that matches the MD5 hash stated in the readme, but I keep getting this error:

xdelta3: not a VCDIFF input: XD3_INVALID_INPUT
xdelta3: normally this indicates that the source file is incorrect
xdelta3: please verify the source file with sha1sum or equivalent

I tried using older versions of xdelta too just in case but no dice...

YeahYeahNo

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I've been promising final updates for a while, but at this point I'm tired of thinking about this company and more interested in working on translations.
Hello, are you working on retranslating any of your WD projects?

SegaCDfan

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I made an account just to post my thanks to Supper for his Un-Worked patches!

As someone who grew up during the Sega CD era and loved JRPGs, Working Designs was god. I recently picked up the US version of Vay again, after not playing it for over a decade, and during the boredom of grinding levels to beat the first boss I checked out GameFAQs. Someone made a post on the Vay Sega CD board pointing to https://tcrf.net/Vay which outlined the butchering that Working Designs did to the US release. I was shocked! I further googled a translation patch to attempt to play the original Japanese version when this thread popped up near the top of the search.

After reading the fixes/unworkings for the multiple games that Working Designs touched, I feel like a small part of my childhood was ruined. I was used to JRPGs being made easier for the US market (Final Fantasy IV->II SNES being an example) not the other way around. And what was done to Vay is borderline atrocious. I loved Vay because it was a hard game and required some strategy to survive dungeons and tons of grinding to survive the bosses (I was a grinding fiend as a kid). But to find out it was artificially hard, almost like a bad fan ROM hack, took that away from me. The only conciliation was that the Lunar games weren't harmed nearly as badly as Vay.

So, again, thank you Supper for your work on restoring these games to how they were meant to be played.  :beer:

duiz

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I'm still having trouble patching Lunar due to xdelta not liking the md5 hash, despite it being the same as in the readme... no one else encountered this issue?

Tobas

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I LOVE these patches and I'm super grateful for them. I simply do not have the patience to finish these games otherwise.

Ms. Tea

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Like everyone else has said, I'm really grateful for these patches! I especially love the mixed-case font in the Lunar games.

I put together a fixed version of the Lunar 2 patch; this should fix the skipping and desyncs during cutscenes. I've already sent it to Supper, and I think he's planning on packaging it up properly, but I figured I'd share a version of it here too! This version of the patch is meant to be applied directly to the .bin file from a BIN/CUE set. The ZIP includes a new CUE sheet along with CloneCD .ccd and .sub files that can be used after it's been patched.

https://public.drac.at/LunarEternalBlueUnWorked2.0.zip

EDIT: Added the fixed URL.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 10:36:47 pm by Ms. Tea »

Special T

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Thanks for doing that Ms. Tea and thanks to Supper for all these amazing patches.  :thumbsup:

I hope Supper adds the link to your updated patch to the first post so it doesn't get lost in this thread since it's so many pages long.

vivify93

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Hi Ms. Tea, let me start by saying thank you for this update. I very much appreciate it, even though I don't play Sega CD games on real hardware. Despite that, I wanted to apply the new patch anyhow.

I'm going to preface this by saying:
1. YES, I AM applying this to Lunar: Eternal Blue for SEGA CD. NOT Lunar 2: Eternal Blue Complete for PS1. I AM applying it to the Sega CD original. NOT the remake.
2. I am applying it to an original, unmodified Lunar: Eternal Blue ISO.

Having said that, I'm a little confused about the patching process. Here's what I did.

1. Obtained my new, unmodified Lunar: Eternal Blue ISO.
2. Converted it from BIN/CUE to ISO/two WAVs.
3. Checked the MD5 hash in HxD. It's 1fab8a8b2d83627ba0c6591e02b451ce, so it matches.
4. Tried to apply Ms. Tea's new XDELTA patch to my ISO using XDELTA UI, and came up with an error: "xdelta3: unknown secondary compressor ID: XD3_INVALID_INPUT"

Does anyone know what could possibly be going wrong?

Thank you for your time. :)

Edit 1 - I also get this while trying to patch the unconverted BIN from a BIN/CUE set.

Edit 2 - According to some cursory research, my problem is that I'm not using the exact same dump Ms. Tea used. But the strange thing is that that means this new patch is incompatible with the one Supper initially used.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2018, 01:59:44 pm by vivify93 »
All my life I've tried to fight what history has given me.

Ms. Tea

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Sorry about that! You're right that I probably didn't target the same dump that Supper used. I wonder if there's a way I can make it a bit more resilient to that...

preta

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I'm also definitely looking forward to the fix. Thanks for all your hard work on it!

July 03, 2018, 06:01:57 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Sorry about that! You're right that I probably didn't target the same dump that Supper used. I wonder if there's a way I can make it a bit more resilient to that...
Is there any way at all for others to get the fix working currently, or is the dump you used one that hasn't been distributed online (for example, your personal dump)?

Now that I've finished TSS for the first time, using its patch, I'm looking forward to playing EB even more! The only issue I noticed (an extremely minor one) was a lack of a space in the "amulet used" message.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 06:01:57 am by preta »

duiz

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I discovered that these patches mostly target the "Darkwater" dumps. Not gonna suggest where you find them or anything, but the patches worked on those dumps for me.

vivify93

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That didn't help for Ms. Tea's patch. My guess is Ms. Tea used her own fresh dump of Lunar: Eternal Blue for Sega CD and that's why it isn't working for us. Thanks for the info, though.
All my life I've tried to fight what history has given me.

duiz

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Ah yeah didn't test her's, only the patches on the front page.

preta

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Reading back a few pages, apparently Ms. Tea's patch is only supposed to be necessary for real hardware, and Supper's version is supposed to work fine in emulators? I hadn't realized this until now, so even though I was planning to play in an emulator I had held off on even trying Supper's version. However, now that I have tried his version in OpenEmu (Genesis Plus), I'm getting the same kinds of skipping/desync issues during the opening. Any ideas on what I could do to fix this?

edit: I did manage to get it working with no desyncs in the opening in Kega Fusion, but only on Windows since the OS X version of Fusion is broken on current versions. And Fusion has its own issues anyway, so I think I'll just continue waiting until Ms. Tea releases a fixed version of her patch.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 03:49:10 am by preta »

gunraidan

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So how do I install the Popful Mail patch to the .iso?

"2. Use xdelta to apply PopfulMailUnWorked.xdelta to your ISO. If you're using
the command line, this would look something like:

xdelta3 -d -s PopfulMailUnWorked.xdelta PopfulMailUS_01.iso
PopfulMailUnWorked_01.iso

If you use a GUI wrapper, it should be self-explanatory, but make sure the
output file is named PopfulMailUnWorked_01.iso."

Confuses me.