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Author Topic: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.  (Read 35998 times)

Jorpho

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Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
« Reply #100 on: July 20, 2016, 09:52:19 am »
Wii U VC is worse than Wii VC. Wii VC doesn't have the dark filter that Wii U has.
Huh.  Are there websites documenting this sort of thing in bitter, exhaustive detail?
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jink640

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Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
« Reply #101 on: July 20, 2016, 10:22:10 am »
I'm talking about that 30 dollar used pc you intended to buy.

Edit: Oh you mean one of those little handheld pc's. Well, you can't just spend 30 dollars and call it a day. You got to buy a ac adapter, mouse, keyboard, controller, hdmi cord, then you gotta download and install an OS, emulators, roms. Good luck gifting that to your parents.

I can get a computer that far surpasses the system requirements for NES games at ~$30. That includes everything needed except for a monitor, which a TV can act quite well as. also controllers are only $10. that will bring you to about $50 once you include shipping.

And no, I meant a windows 7 desktop. Its not difficult to grab parts from places like Amazon or Ebay and put them into a box. You can also find hard drives with OS installed for a very low price. The internet sure is a great place sometimes  :)


You didnt account the price of the games, and licensing seem to be a big part of that price tag


I am confused by this statement.

Jeville

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Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
« Reply #102 on: July 20, 2016, 11:00:36 am »
Huh.  Are there websites documenting this sort of thing in bitter, exhaustive detail?
Not that I know of. You can see the comparison with Paper Mario screenshots here.

We know the Wii U VC could have done better with its brightness when compared to NES Remix (a Wii U game) emulation seen here.

MisterJones

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Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
« Reply #103 on: July 20, 2016, 11:13:45 am »
You are saying that it would only cost you 30 bucks to make such a device, in contrast to the 60 usd price tag. However, you need to take into account the cost of each of the 30 games included, which, as much as I would like to, arent free
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jink640

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Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
« Reply #104 on: July 20, 2016, 11:20:31 am »
You are saying that it would only cost you 30 bucks to make such a device, in contrast to the 60 usd price tag. However, you need to take into account the cost of each of the 30 games included, which, as much as I would like to, arent free
Oh. You are talking about why Nintendo is pricing this at $60 rather than something lower? I am aware that they have to increase price for licensing, I'm just saying that as a consumer this product holds little value to those who are not collectors. I never said that it would only take 30 to make the Mini Nes, I said you could make something much better at around the same price. Which is true.  :P

Chronosplit

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Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
« Reply #105 on: July 20, 2016, 12:31:36 pm »
Emulators require you to buy expensive equipment in most cases. Like a pc or a phone, then you gotta buy a controller. This plug in play thing only requires you have a tv, which most people already have. 60 bucks and you get 150 dollars worth of virtual console games.
NES emulation tends to run on any toaster though.  I was able to run the latest emulators at full speed using a Pentium IV I saved from the trash heap after enabling DirectDraw where needed.  That was the only compromise.

Disch

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Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
« Reply #106 on: July 20, 2016, 12:38:27 pm »
NES emulation tends to run on any toaster though.  I was able to run the latest emulators at full speed using a Pentium IV I saved from the trash heap after enabling DirectDraw where needed.  That was the only compromise.

NESticle ran fullspeed on mid-range PCs back in 1996.

If your only concern is getting games running and you aren't concerned with accuracy, you can make an NES emu that plays on a hamburger.

FAST6191

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Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
« Reply #107 on: July 20, 2016, 12:50:59 pm »
You have to go along way to prove a point. You can't control a pc with a controller unless you install some software that does that and make it auto boot. I imagine navigating a desktop with a dpad can't be too great. If you wanna use a mouse then you have to get a extra long cord that runs to a couch from your tv since your pc has to be plugged into a tv with a short 1 dollar cord. Don't tell me you'd use a wireless mouse cause I had one. You gotta shut it off when you aren't using it otherwise it drains the battery. The slightest nudge activates it again. Good luck convincing people you just gave them a good gift, not the cheapest of cheap pc's. For extra LOL's you should leave the 1 dollar price tag on all the parts you buy for it.
You started with a list of theoretically expensive extras that would have nudged the initial purchase price up into something untenable when compared to the device the thread started with might retail at. I attempted to counter it. Sure if I purchased a USB charger from a mobile phone shop, a HDMI lead from monstrosity (because apparently those digital leads benefit from the theoretically increased quality of the connections and cables), decided I needed mouse, keyboard and controller, a big boy massive SD card and got general high street prices for them it adds up rapidly. It is hardly the case here though. I agree it is more than the plain board prices being thrown around, they are not particularly troublesome though and can be easily rendered in the not a lot of money range.

My PC does auto boot, as do I dare say most out there. I might have to disable the keyboard and mouse connected checks in BIOS though if I am going controller only.
Some free software (I don't know what people are using instead of joy2key right now)? Madness.
You would be right though that plain dpad (as opposed to thumbstick or something) sucks for conventional start bar and windows UI. I hate it but modern windows does come with a tablet driven interface and there is also the concept that gets dubbed the "10-foot user interface" made for all sorts of media players and emulator frontends.

Modern wireless mice do better, also is a tiny little switch on the bottom/side of the thing is so bad? Is sliding down the cover on the remote to access the DVD functions, let alone getting up to fetch remote for a lesser used device, such an imposition? I did also mention remote control via phone and tablet and whatever else.

Bahamut ZERO

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Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
« Reply #108 on: July 20, 2016, 01:53:19 pm »
Joy2Key's gotten massively more user friendly in the last few year. Compared to the older build I tried using years ago the current version of the program is like Xpadder on steroids.
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MathUser2929

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Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
« Reply #109 on: July 20, 2016, 02:57:38 pm »
You started with a list of theoretically expensive extras that would have nudged the initial purchase price up into something untenable when compared to the device the thread started with might retail at. I attempted to counter it. Sure if I purchased a USB charger from a mobile phone shop, a HDMI lead from monstrosity (because apparently those digital leads benefit from the theoretically increased quality of the connections and cables), decided I needed mouse, keyboard and controller, a big boy massive SD card and got general high street prices for them it adds up rapidly. It is hardly the case here though. I agree it is more than the plain board prices being thrown around, they are not particularly troublesome though and can be easily rendered in the not a lot of money range.

My PC does auto boot, as do I dare say most out there. I might have to disable the keyboard and mouse connected checks in BIOS though if I am going controller only.
Some free software (I don't know what people are using instead of joy2key right now)? Madness.
You would be right though that plain dpad (as opposed to thumbstick or something) sucks for conventional start bar and windows UI. I hate it but modern windows does come with a tablet driven interface and there is also the concept that gets dubbed the "10-foot user interface" made for all sorts of media players and emulator frontends.

Modern wireless mice do better, also is a tiny little switch on the bottom/side of the thing is so bad? Is sliding down the cover on the remote to access the DVD functions, let alone getting up to fetch remote for a lesser used device, such an imposition? I did also mention remote control via phone and tablet and whatever else.

I had a wireless mouse not that long ago, and I had to replace the batteries almost every week, even though I had switched it off when I went somewhere. You can argue that 30 dollar pc's are just as good as a 60 dollar nes as long as someone with tech knowledge is around to set up the pc and find 1 dollar parts for it. But with the new system you don't have to know anyone with computer knowledge to set up a OS for you. You just take it out of the box hook it to the tv, plug in the controller and pick a game. No case to buy, it comes with a beautfiul one by default. I don't expect a rush in raspberry sales this november when the NES mini is launched.

FAST6191

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Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
« Reply #110 on: July 20, 2016, 03:39:45 pm »
The £1 parts were not one off auctions and stock clearances as much as fairly consistent lines (at least until I come along and buy them all) from one of the more common shops in the country; not counting rivals selling much the same thing there are between 2 and 4 depending upon how you want to count town borders, said town being 130K people.

Not sure what to say on the mice. You would not catch me with one, though the only wireless things I like to deal with are the photons going from the screen to my eyeballs and the sounds from the headphones to my ears, but I have played with quite a few and they more or less do what you need these days.

I also don't expect a rush on sales (emulation is hardly a hidden concept and most people that want such a thing probably already have it or have other means), however the computer knowledge barrier is not half of what it was. Sure I would imagine people struggling to get PS1, N64 and Amiga emulators set up (mainly as they frustrate me often enough with all the BIOS and plugin and extraneous files) but it is not like teaching breakpoints or going back to the dos era.
At the same time I don't expect a major rush in sales for these either, at least as far as people getting one for either general or reliable use.

Panzer88

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Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
« Reply #111 on: July 20, 2016, 04:09:13 pm »
the whole argument of this device competing with PC emulators is silly, from either angle.

you can easily run an emulator on your computer if you want to do that, and there would be no purpose to buy this, but that's not the audience of this device.

I'm fully for nintendo doing something LIKE this, a device you plug into your TV, again, the quality is just lacking, there are already better products on the market that you can buy and plug into your TV.

my main issues with this product come back to quality, the quality of the emulation is poor, the hardware is running on has to be poor based on price, the AV choices are limited, no support for NTSC NES, PAL NES, or FC games, no light gun support, etc.

EDIT:

the retrousb AVS is a vastly superior product

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2016/05/retrousbs_hdmi_nes_the_avs_is_heading_for_a_summer_release

or just get a 2nd hand NES

hell, I hate the Retron, and that'd still be a better product

http://www.stoneagegamer.com/retron5.html
« Last Edit: July 20, 2016, 04:15:19 pm by Panzer88 »
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Sliver X

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Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
« Reply #112 on: July 20, 2016, 07:24:55 pm »
Quote
You have to go along way to prove a point. You can't control a pc with a controller unless you install some software that does that and make it auto boot. I imagine navigating a desktop with a dpad can't be too great. If you wanna use a mouse then you have to get a extra long cord that runs to a couch from your tv since your pc has to be plugged into a tv with a short 1 dollar cord. Don't tell me you'd use a wireless mouse cause I had one. You gotta shut it off when you aren't using it otherwise it drains the battery. The slightest nudge activates it again. Good luck convincing people you just gave them a good gift, not the cheapest of cheap pc's. For extra LOL's you should leave the 1 dollar price tag on all the parts you buy for it.

In 2009 I designed a mini ITX PC I called "Consoul" which was basically a homebrew console design:



It ran a hyper stripped build of Windows XP x64 I made with a program called nLite, and was entirely controlled by Dualshock 2s (Later on, Dualshock 3s), using an emulator/media frontend called GameEx.

It emulated over two dozen arcade and console machines (With tens of thousands of screenshots for them all), had about 40 PC games, all my movies/TV shows and music on it. It could also rip DVDs to AVIs (And burn DVDs from existing AVIs), or rip them to ISOs and play them or burn them, rip PSX, Sega CD, PCE-CD discs (And add them to their respective emulator's game list), rip or burn audio CDs as well as play BluRay movies. It also acted like a big ass NAS box on my home network.

All of that was controlled by hitting buttons on a gamepad: JoyToKey was the backbone of a lot of it, along with dozens of batch scripts and AutoIT programs I wrote. The only part that kind of sucked was using a web browser with analog sticks to move the mouse, but I had an on screen keyboard that allowed typing (And later the DS3 bluetooth keypad).

I made a few successor units with better hardware and more capabilities (Giga Drive and Neo Drive), but I guess my point is that making a dedicated emulator box doesn't require interacting with the machine like it's a desktop PC.



I think the total cost was about $400 for the hardware, and required a level of ability and knowledge to create that the vast majority of the world does not have nor would care to have.

So yeah, even after designing things like this I can totally see the appeal of the mini NES. I probably won't buy one, but I can see why a lot of people would. It's ass easy to use, cheap, and probably has at least one or two games most people would remember playing when they were kids.

Jorpho

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Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
« Reply #113 on: July 20, 2016, 11:21:28 pm »
the quality of the emulation is poor, the hardware is running on has to be poor based on price, the AV choices are limited
You've mentioned that at least twice now.  How can you possibly know a darn thing about the emulation of a product that hasn't even been released yet!?

It suddenly occurs to me: maybe part of the reason they're doing this is just to consume the leftover parts from the millions of Wii U units they were expecting to sell.
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Panzer88

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Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
« Reply #114 on: July 20, 2016, 11:33:43 pm »
I'd be willing to bet $50 USD that the emulation is going to be the quality of existing VC titles or lower, which is to say low, anyone confident enough to bet that it will suddenly, magically be higher quality, they've decided to turn over a new leaf even though the hardware will be considerably weaker than their existing platforms?

I don't think so man.

It was Nintendo that claimed the original 3DS wasn't powerful enough to emulate Super Nintendo games properly, so they do it on the N3DS
« Last Edit: July 21, 2016, 01:52:09 am by Panzer88 »
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Jorpho

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Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
« Reply #115 on: July 21, 2016, 01:32:38 am »
I'dbe willing to bet $50 USD that the emulation is going to bethe quality of existing VC titles or lower, which is to say low
I agree, it's highly unlikely that it's going to be better, but what's so bad about the emulation of existing VC titles, aside from the darker palette?  Is it demonstrably inferior to what you could get with, say, Nestopia or FCEUX?

Quote
It was Nintendo that claimed the original 3DS wasn't powerful enough to emulate Super Nintendo games properly, so they do it on the N3DS
That was exactly my thought earlier in the thread.  Presumably, they refused to compromise on emulation quality and release some slow, incomplete emulator, even if that meant denying SNES games to the existing old 3DS install base.  So why would the compromise on emulation quality here?
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Panzer88

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Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
« Reply #116 on: July 21, 2016, 01:53:22 am »
They've been compromising since the beginning of the VC.

There are known bugs in games with no patches, some games run differently than on the original system, etc. It's embarrassing when volunteer emulator authors can produce something better than Nintendo themselves. They use per game hacks, we're talking 10 years behind the current state of emulation, which in and of itself is still trying to compete with an actual original system.

We shouldn't even have to be comparing this to other emulators, we should be able to compare this to an original NES and it should pass with flying colors.

Nintendo as a 1st party has the resources and should be expected to be better than other hardware vendors. If the AVS can play NES games better than the NES mini or any VC version, then something is wrong, a third party vendor shouldn't be beating Nintendo at their own game.
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FAST6191

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Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
« Reply #117 on: July 21, 2016, 05:06:51 am »
They've been compromising since the beginning of the VC.

There are known bugs in games with no patches, some games run differently than on the original system, etc. It's embarrassing when volunteer emulator authors can produce something better than Nintendo themselves. They use per game hacks, we're talking 10 years behind the current state of emulation, which in and of itself is still trying to compete with an actual original system.

We shouldn't even have to be comparing this to other emulators, we should be able to compare this to an original NES and it should pass with flying colors.

Nintendo as a 1st party has the resources and should be expected to be better than other hardware vendors. If the AVS can play NES games better than the NES mini or any VC version, then something is wrong, a third party vendor shouldn't be beating Nintendo at their own game.

So you are Nintendo and don't want to validate any emulator development and can't use any code from them or buy one in (are you Sega now?). So you have some nice old specs, though probably nothing so nice/useful as nesdev, and a relatively short while to build an emulator for what amounts to an embedded system. Emulation coding is not necessarily taught in schools and you are working for game industry money anyway.
I can see game specific hack jobs and crude emulation being the result of that. It is embarrassing to see but I can still see it.

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Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
« Reply #118 on: July 21, 2016, 09:02:36 am »
Has anyone thought also, that the components necessary to make a new system that will play old cartridges as well as any new ones that get put out (with modern tech!) and contain HDMI output, and not be so power consumptive as to melt the thing, weren't just expensive in the 80's, they are probably rarer and far more expensive now.

Things increase in price when there are fewer of them available, and when they age. Vacuum tubes for guitar amplifiers are a good example; they are very pricey these days, and were not always so, or so I am given to think.

To manufacture a brand spanking new NES that has HDMI output and takes carts would drive the pricepoint out of the intended market's interest window, I think.

tl;dr = It doesn't have to be too expensive.
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FAST6191

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Re: The HD Mini-NES is a thing.
« Reply #119 on: July 21, 2016, 10:42:18 am »
Though rarity does not help the valve thing is also audiophool tax -- various people got it into their heads that valves sound better and thus various people pay for it.

Components wise
http://gamesx.com/wiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=schematics:nes-001-schematic---cpu_-ppu_-ram_-cic.png

Nothing major there, indeed I imagine anything that does not have a pin compatible descendant (CIC aside but you can junk that I reckon) can be made in a FPGA... and apparently someone made the lot
http://fpganes.blogspot.co.uk/ and https://github.com/strigeus/fpganes

Even without that I have never quite looked into the famiclones and why they fail, hardware wise anyway.

Now if you wanted to emulate the mappers as well there might be something more to it. Equally with it being a game console you inherently have a digital signal you can feed to any old upscaler (and maybe/hopefully CRT emulator) that spits out a valid HDMI signal.
16 bit era devices would be a considerable feat though doable. Beyond that would be crazy from where I sit, though a FPGA driven N64 clone would be something I like to see, at least until I remember once more how awful the N64 was -- I think I am more likely to take the "Sonic Adventure was legitimately a classic" set seriously before I take the "N64 was an unsung classic" lot seriously, both seem to exist though.

In any case it would still be harder than squirting an emulator pack onto some old ARM board and calling it a day.