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Author Topic: Tell me about the Brigandine: Grand Edition translation.  (Read 2187 times)

Chronosplit

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Tell me about the Brigandine: Grand Edition translation.
« on: June 12, 2016, 07:57:54 pm »
I've heard three accusations of the fan translation, and I'd like to know from those who've played it if these are true or not before I start playing this version.

1. The movie subtitles aren't very well done, like the timing is off and the size can be odd.

2. It got censored.  I did a little research of this, the translator did revert some names from accusations but not all of them.  I'd like to know if the script itself got a nerf or not or if there's any lines like "she fucks like a tiger" from SNES ToP.

3. There are random gameplay changes in the translation patch itself.  I know there's a separate difficulty and tweak patch, but I've been hearing this about the main translation.  There appears to be a fix floating around for this.

KingMike

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Re: Tell me about the Brigandine: Grand Edition translation.
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2016, 10:08:30 pm »

2. It got censored.  I did a little research of this, the translator did revert some names from accusations but not all of them.  I'd like to know if the script itself got a nerf or not or if there's any lines like "she fucks like a tiger" from SNES ToP.

Oh, was this the game fan-translated by someone with a strong Christian(?) belief who censored stuff too "demonic" for their taste? I vaguely remember hearing about that.
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Chronosplit

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Re: Tell me about the Brigandine: Grand Edition translation.
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2016, 11:22:40 am »
Oh, was this the game fan-translated by someone with a strong Christian(?) belief who censored stuff too "demonic" for their taste? I vaguely remember hearing about that.
That's about the gist of what I've been reading, yeah.  It's a crazy thing to hear about a fan translation.

GHANMI

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Re: Tell me about the Brigandine: Grand Edition translation.
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2016, 03:41:55 pm »
Oh, that fabled translation. Finally got to know which game it was.

I remember reading somewhere a log by some frustrated romhacker complaining about the translation (the translator was from the U.S. and definitively a very conservative Christian) being so deeply compromised that stuff like "magic", let alone heavier themes, got changed, and that he just gave up and inserted it, but deems the game patch in need of a rewrite from scratch. He didn't mention which game probably out of respect, but then again it's not like there's lots of cases fitting this exact description.

Well, for a good while it's not like fan-translated stuff had big standards. With what little basic Japanese literacy I got over the years I could see for myself how big parts of Monster World IV's fan-translation were just made up, and god knows how many other undocumented cases like that exist besides the more blatant and well-known Final Fantasy IV and Fire Emblem Thracia patches.

KingMike

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Re: Tell me about the Brigandine: Grand Edition translation.
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2016, 10:23:02 am »
From what I understand, in the case of FF4 the translator was good but it got mangled up in the editing (some lines it was very clear the ROM hackers were teens who decided to "improve" the translation :P ).
(I keep forgetting I'm guilty of that with Stargazer. I do need to fix that by, along with finishing the translation, undoing the memeifying or whatever I did.)
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Sir Howard Stringer, chief executive of Sony, on Christmas sales of the PS3:
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Chronosplit

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Re: Tell me about the Brigandine: Grand Edition translation.
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2016, 01:01:58 pm »
From what I understand, in the case of FF4 the translator was good but it got mangled up in the editing (some lines it was very clear the ROM hackers were teens who decided to "improve" the translation :P ).
(I keep forgetting I'm guilty of that with Stargazer. I do need to fix that by, along with finishing the translation, undoing the memeifying or whatever I did.)
The job itself was good for the most part.  The problem resulted more from too many irons in the fire, so to speak.  Some lines were taken directly from the original localization (which ironically for the purpose resulted in the translators unintentionally censoring the text), and the obvious made up lines like the Shatner reference.

weissvulf

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Re: Tell me about the Brigandine: Grand Edition translation.
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2017, 06:07:44 am »
An old thread, but since I was the creator of said translation, and have never bother to make an official statement on these rumors- this is as good a place as any. I hope no one thinks I'm writing this to blow my own horn or start any arguments. I have a decent idea of life's cause-and-effects, yet I write because the truth is worth stating, always.

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1. The movie subtitles aren't very well done, like the timing is off and the size can be odd.
This is true in some places. I had not intended to release subtitles at all (only voices), but went out of my way to do subtitles because several people requested it. I noticed the quality issues after the release, but a fix was low on my list. It will likely never happen at this point.

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2. It got censored.  I did a little research of this, the translator did revert some names from accusations but not all of them.  I'd like to know if the script itself got a nerf or not or if there's any lines like "she fucks like a tiger" from SNES ToP.
I would think a more important question would be 'is it fun', but regardless, I will answer. Rumors of censorship are mainly hysteria.  I will speak honestly. These rumors were started by one person who I exchanged a few paragraphs with in private messages. They were a Brigandine fan who struck me as intelligent in a few posts so I approached them asking for opinions on some names. In that short conversation, I mentioned I was a 'conservative Christian' and the conversation ended rather quickly with him saying I was 'dangerous'.

I'd estimate that about 30% of the creature and knight-class names were changed because I thought them Engrishy or boring. Included in those changes were some classes in the 'angel' and 'demon' lines.  Part of my intent in this translation was to provide a fun new experience for players, so I actually wasn't too worried about changing things that weren't vital to the game's story. Did my Christianity influence which names I picked? Yes, because it is part of who I am and how my mind works. Anyone who thinks their views don't affect their translation choices is lying to themselves.

So, after the initial patch was released, a handful of old Brigandine fans complained about some of the changes. I didn't care much about names, but it felt 'cheap' to revert back to what I considered substandard names simply because some people don't like change. I did however revert some 'borderline' choices such as 'Lich > Vampire Lord'. This is when I contacted the aforementioned forum member to ask their naming advice.

In the short exchange, I told him that there was one particular name that I didn't want to revert back because of my Christian heart. That was the Angel which upgraded to Lucifer. My Christianity was not the only reason. There were already two other creatures in the game with synonym names (Satan and Shiatan) and I felt the 'dark twist' at the highest level 'holy' creature depolarized the role-playing feeling (aka was less fun) .  Don't  mistake that as an apology for my Christian ethics.

There was zero intent to censor content from others. I will try to explain it to those who don't share the same ideal: to a Christian, God is not a vague distant legend that some 2000 year old book mentions. He is active in our current lives. We see his effects in life in real and measurable ways. We love him as wholly as you may love a girlfriend or wife. If someone paints 'Your wife is a fat ugly slut' on your door, you paint over it. If my neighbor paints that message on his door, I take another path home so I don't have to look at it. This project was born from my sweat and labor. I have no intent to restrict anyone's access to content of their choice, but my hands are my own. I will not lend my efforts to political correctness, nor will I knowingly hurt someone I love with them.

There is only a narrow line of content that falls under this moral. In Brigandine it was only Lucifer. To be honest, I was a bit conflicted over the name 'Satan' for a female Succubus type creature as well. Not because these are 'evil' names, but because they refer to a being that is perceived as a real and integral part of the Christian life. To treat the subject in a flippant and misleading way is disrespectful. The names had no story connection whatsoever. They were simply pulled out of a 'mythology' hat by a Shinto based culture because they were exotic sounding chiches.  As such, I deemed them as Engrishy as well as in poor taste.

So, because I mentioned that I was a Christian and thus did not want to change that one name back to literal, the person who had been giving me advice on how to change names,  suddenly decided every translation choice I had made was a childish censorship campaign. For example, they posted that I had changed 'Oroborus' to 'Jormungandr' for religious reasons. This is especially silly because Jormungandr was the name of a Norse 'god', son of Loki, whereas Oroborus is a generic snake eating its tail symbol. In truth the change was done because the creature was called the 'Serpent of Chaos' in multiple places That is a proper noun for Jormungandr who was an early incarnation of the oroborus symbol. Thus, I viewed Jormungandr as a more accurate translation to Western sensibilities.

As far as what else was changed which could even remotely be considered for religious reasons? As far as I remember,  I capitalized a few references to 'god' in the Leonia story line which would more literally be translated as 'divine' or 'holy' or 'god'. It was mainly because the game has a European setting and Leonia is clearly modeled after France under Joan of Arc so I deemed the proper noun as more fitting. There is no mention of deities whatsoever in the game, lore or otherwise.

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3. There are random gameplay changes in the translation patch itself.  I know there's a separate difficulty and tweak patch, but I've been hearing this about the main translation.  There appears to be a fix floating around for this.
The gameplay changes were centered around, the uber-spell "Meteor Doom" which most people felt broke the singleplayer game. Once you get a couple units that can cast it, you can defeat any AI army easily. In an attempt to counter this, I raised its MP cost and gave it to weak healers hoping to force players to choose between healing or damaging enemies. The units that lost Meteor Doom gained ranged attacks and abnormal status attacks with increased range and potency. I found the changes far superior to vanilla, but a few long time fans complained. I finally changed it back because someone pointed out that I had left black element without an area effect spell. I don't think that was terribly significant to gameplay balance, but it did feel 'off'.

There are still typos in the patch and some 'reserved' compression errors etc. I had planned to fix all these and release my ASMs, text dumps and custom tools, but I lost motivation to do anything more.  For two years, I spent almost every spare moment I had translating the 1MB+ text and hacking an insanely complicated engine. I've gotten far more criticism for my effort than praise. I wouldn't mind if people said 'I didn't like such and such about it', but most of what I've seen hot tempered guesswork about what is 'probably wrong' with it based on a few statements by one biased person.

I understand people being afraid they're missing out on some wonderful content because of censorship, but that's not the case. I even restored a couple reference to eating dogs, that Atlus removed in LoF! That's the funniest part - Atlus' LoF release was such a weak translation, even with the names I changed, I'd wager good money that my version is more accurate to the original writers intent than theirs.

P.S. I hope you don't mind me posting this here Chronosplit.  I know this post is way old, but I just wanted to say what I felt without cluttering a forum with my nonsense.  ::)

DragonSpikeXIII

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Re: Tell me about the Brigandine: Grand Edition translation.
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2017, 07:12:42 pm »
Great post, weissvulf. I, too, read that weird review on the thread linked in the translation's page quite a while ago and found it really unusual to see a fan-trans get criticized for censorship instead of the usual good/bad criteria, because censorship is something big companies like Nintendo do, not fans whose only interest is in simply translating the original script.

I only ever saw a few people parroting those very same comments and every time someone (including me) asked for details or examples, there was only silence. Needless to say, it sounded more and more like bullshit as time went on.

I guess it shows we should all be a little extra careful when dealing with people online, even in an innocuous scene such as romhacking.
Thank you for clearing it up, it's a shame you had to take time to do something like this, but the effort to do so is much appreciated.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2017, 07:20:30 pm by DragonSpikeXIII »

Mugi

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Re: Tell me about the Brigandine: Grand Edition translation.
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2017, 09:47:28 pm »
I feel you man, been there done that.
I've gotten shitted on about pretty much every game i've touched because someone just so happened to like X more than Y and they felt like
it's my sworn duty to please them and them only regarding how things are being made. (most recently in my current project too, i was labeled as a crazed weeaboo amongst other things, instantly upon bringing up my point of view of not renaming characters in the game.)

at the end of the day I just gave up, I completely abandoned any view I have whatsoever and I just stare at the debugger and hex editor, suppose that's where Im better at, so whatever I guess.. Needless to say this sort of feedback has already caused me to instantly decline doing anything romhacking related unless it's something I absolutely wish to work on for myself. because if people feel like bashing on things i do, they may then go and do better themselves, see if i give a shit.
In PSP we trust.

SCO

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Re: Tell me about the Brigandine: Grand Edition translation.
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2017, 09:50:51 am »
Yeah, this 'controversy' always seemed to me a bit of a /v crusade against 'moralfags' because some translator had the audacity to rename minor things he felt were offensive to his religion (stormfront nazis ofc don't admit to playing games).

It's not a good thing, but no reason to blacklist a patch... especially when bullshit like this and this is praised on the same place. I dislike culture war even when it targets things i disagree with and i dislike hypocrisy.

Internet really concentrated the shit of humanity into echo chambers with disproportionate influence on the unwary.

MitsukuHackbot

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Re: Tell me about the Brigandine: Grand Edition translation.
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2017, 04:41:14 pm »
Thanks for the explanation weissvulf. I only read about half of it because I'm pressed for time but to me, all of the changes make sense. I'll read the rest later. I was particularly interested though because I had just burned a copy of this translation to play on OG hardware.
 :)

Chronosplit

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Re: Tell me about the Brigandine: Grand Edition translation.
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2017, 07:13:50 pm »
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P.S. I hope you don't mind me posting this here Chronosplit.  I know this post is way old, but I just wanted to say what I felt without cluttering a forum with my nonsense.
I don't mind at all, in fact I'm going to spread word about this where I can.  Maybe after that I'll finally sit down to that replay I mentioned in our earlier talk about my review. :)

Thank you very, very much for both your work and your post about all of this.  Also Merry Christmas!

weissvulf

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Re: Tell me about the Brigandine: Grand Edition translation.
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2017, 02:56:35 am »
 :) Thank you all for you supportive comments - really, thank you.