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Author Topic: ROM Hacks: At Long Last Women Run the Shadows too!  (Read 21737 times)

xnamkcor

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Re: ROM Hacks: At Long Last Women Run the Shadows too!
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2015, 06:32:00 pm »
Y'all are hijacking this thread to talk about your personal and political reactions to a fairly(But admittedly, not entirely) neutral hack.

They're reacting to the words in the news article, not the hack itself

Also suicide jokes aren't funny.

What're you talking about? They're to die for.

SunGodPortal

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Re: ROM Hacks: At Long Last Women Run the Shadows too!
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2015, 06:38:44 pm »
Quote
They're reacting to the words in the news article, not the hack itself

Which contains nothing to get upset about. You people have too much time on your hands. Get out and get some fresh air.
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goldenband

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Re: ROM Hacks: At Long Last Women Run the Shadows too!
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2015, 06:55:35 pm »
"Whether you're a female gamer who longs to play a classic Sega Genesis RPG as a character that you can identify with"
Is it not heavily implied here that there are no MD RPGs with a playable female char (which is wrong), and that they're needed for a female player to identify with a playable character (also wrong)?

"A classic Sega Genesis RPG" = Shadowrun, this RPG, not all MD RPGs.

And yes, women do tend to identify more with women, just as men do with men -- as anyone who's ever felt vaguely absurd playing a game with a 18-year-old anime protagonist can attest. If every single game had to have one of those blow-up-doll-esque girls as the only playable character(s), then it would certainly turn me off.

My wife always chooses the female character when we play video games together. It's kind of a joke on her part -- "OK, I guess I'm supposed to be the girl" -- but kind of not.

Unfortunately I'm not going to give this hack a go just yet, as I still haven't played the original yet* -- it's been on my list for ages, and I have the box + manual, but no cart yet -- but I think it's absurd to feel oppressed or disrespected by it.

There's nothing objectionable about the opening blurb; maybe it's a tad self-important, but so is everything else on the Internet. The offended reactions are practically caricatures of hairtrigger male nerd rage, like something you'd see on Law & Order: SVU -- it's as if you're handing the Sarkeesians of the world a straw man on a silver platter. You're becoming exactly what they're accusing you of being, in other words.

*I have fond memories of the SNES version, though.

magictrufflez

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Re: ROM Hacks: At Long Last Women Run the Shadows too!
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2015, 07:00:10 pm »
Well, since the old thread was purified for decency's sake, I suppose I'll repost my original comment:

It's nice to see someone paying attention to the Genesis version of Shadowrun!  In my experience, the SNES version seems to get most of the love, but I always felt the Genesis version was much truer to the Shadowrun feel than the SNES

Nice work prof!

They're reacting to the words in the news article, not the hack itself

The 2-3 sentences of factual information about there being a lack of female protags in older games?  As mentioned earlier, we have games about Dick Nazis and Dick Tetris on this site, and you guys want to get up in arms over profs inspiration to make this hack?  Mercy

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Re: ROM Hacks: At Long Last Women Run the Shadows too!
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2015, 07:03:43 pm »
^Why are you allowing someone to have a political soap box on the site but not criticism of their message? Also suicide jokes aren't funny.

Re: Darksol
"Whether you're a female gamer who longs to play a classic Sega Genesis RPG as a character that you can identify with"
Is it not heavily implied here that there are no MD RPGs with a playable female char (which is wrong), and that they're needed for a female player to identify with a playable character (also wrong)? I think it's pretty clear.

Now that is an interesting and informed point. The biggest one that comes to mind is Phantasy Star, people loved the game and I never heard anyone say that it suffered or they couldn't "relate" to the character because she was a woman. But the overall point of this hack as an exercise in gender balancing is well taken and should be looked at with those merits in mind and I am always glad to see choice in those sorts of matters.

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Re: ROM Hacks: At Long Last Women Run the Shadows too!
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2015, 07:10:22 pm »
It's somewhat disturbing that the aforementioned Dick Nazi hacks are spawning less controversy than a simple graphics hack to make the main character a woman.

magictrufflez

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Re: ROM Hacks: At Long Last Women Run the Shadows too!
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2015, 07:18:33 pm »
Now that is an interesting and informed point. The biggest one that comes to mind is Phantasy Star, people loved the game and I never heard anyone say that it suffered or they couldn't "relate" to the character because she was a woman. But the overall point of this hack as an exercise in gender balancing is well taken and should be looked at with those merits in mind and I am always glad to see choice in those sorts of matters.

I can't think of any MD games other than Phantasy Star I with female protags.  In older games generally Metroid comes to mind, but I can't really think of many female protags outside of those 2 games from that era (there are a few more in the SNES library, but still few and far between).  And even in Metroid you didn't know Samus was a female until the end IIRC.

I think profs whole point is that he didn't want his niece to only see women in old video games in their traditional roles (ie not the hero), which is a legit and pretty decent motivation to do a hack.

I.S.T.

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Re: ROM Hacks: At Long Last Women Run the Shadows too!
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2015, 07:22:31 pm »
They've caused 6 page threads in the past many-a-time, Midna. Many-a-time.
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PresidentLeever

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Re: ROM Hacks: At Long Last Women Run the Shadows too!
« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2015, 07:43:34 pm »
Well I haven't played the "dick nazi" hack, but did it come with a (seemingly) serious message about dicks/nazis/dick nazis being underrepresented in games, how it's something the gaming community needs to face up to and how germans/male nudists can finally have a character to relate to? I would guess not, and by the name, I would think it is mocking nazis and not the opposite, or just doing something absurd for the lols and not activism. So spontaneously I don't think it's a good comparison.

Now if OP was actually mocking certain feminists and I somehow missed the sarcasm then bravo, fooled me.

I'm sorry to hear that I.S.T. I was being sarcastic, but could've made a case for how your post was triggering, insensitive, bla bla and talked about my dad who killed himself less than a year ago (not joking), but my point was that I don't want this forum to turn into something like that and felt that sort of vibe when the previous thread was locked despite what I thought was mostly reasonable criticism, and mixed with some praise as well. Couldn't part of the thread have been moved or some people have been warned?

"A classic Sega Genesis RPG" = Shadowrun, this RPG, not all MD RPGs.
Fair enough, it can be read that way too. But then it means OP doesn't consider PS or SF series to be classic MD RPGs and that is more upsetting than anything else he might've said. :P
Regarding the other point, while you're probably right about that it's not relevant to what was said in the post, which wasimplying an absolute and not a relative.



October 18, 2015, 07:50:03 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
I can't think of any MD games other than Phantasy Star I with female protags.  In older games generally Metroid comes to mind, but I can't really think of many female protags outside of those 2 games from that era (there are a few more in the SNES library, but still few and far between).  And even in Metroid you didn't know Samus was a female until the end IIRC.

I think profs whole point is that he didn't want his niece to only see women in old video games in their traditional roles (ie not the hero), which is a legit and pretty decent motivation to do a hack.

The overall number is very different depending on your criteria, but this mobygames list is pretty excluding (only main protags and no games where you can pick between male and female chars) and has some MD games in it:
http://www.mobygames.com/game-group/protagonist-female/offset,300/so,1a/

Edit:
Here's the list I came up with based on mobygames:
Spoiler:
Burning Force   1989   Arcade, Genesis, Wii
Arrow Flash   1990   Genesis   Renovation Products, Inc.   3.05
Cutie Suzuki no Ringside Angel   1990   Genesis   Asmik Corporation   2.73
Phantasy Star II Text Adventure: Shilka no Bōken   1990   Genesis   SEGA Enterprises Ltd.   3.70
Phantasy Star II Text Adventure: Amia no Bōken   1990   Genesis   SEGA Enterprises Ltd.   3.50
M.U.S.H.A.   1990   Genesis, Wii   Naxat Soft   4.27
Valis III   1990   Genesis, TurboGrafx CD   Renovation Products, Inc.   3.52
El Viento   1991   Genesis   Renovation Products, Inc.   3.65
Trouble Shooter   1991   Genesis   Vic Tokai, Inc.   3.33
Mamono Hunter Yōko: Dai 7 no Keishō   1991   Genesis   Masaya   3.20
Battle Golfer Yui   1991   Genesis   SEGA Enterprises Ltd.   2.50
Phantasy Star II Text Adventure: Anne no Bōken   1991   Genesis   SEGA Enterprises Ltd.   3.70
Valis   1991   Genesis, TurboGrafx CD   Renovation Products, Inc.   3.34
Phantasy Star II Text Adventure: Nei no Bōken   1991   Genesis   SEGA Enterprises Ltd.   3.50
Dahna: Megami Tanjō   1991   Genesis   Information Global Service   2.47
Pachinko Kuunyan   1992   Genesis   Soft Vision International Co., Ltd.   ...
Battle Mania Daiginjō   1993   Genesis   Vic Tokai Corporation   4.10
Disney's Beauty and the Beast: Belle's Quest   1993   Genesis   Sun Electronics Corp.   2.29
Madō Monogatari I   1993   Game Gear, Genesis, TurboGrafx CD   Compile   3.53
Turma da Mônica na Terra dos Monstros   1994   Genesis   Tec Toy Indústria de Brinquedos S.A.   4.15
Monster World IV   1994   Genesis, PlayStation 3, Wii   SEGA of America, Inc.   4.13
Panorama Cotton   1994   Genesis   Sun Corporation   4.80
Phantasy Star I - ?
So going by their criteria, not too many that can be considered RPGs (I would include adventure and action rpg games in this context), just 9 including the golf game and Turma da Monica which I guess is a sprite hack.
And most can be considered blank slates or without distinguising traits apart from their looks and clothing, which I was negative to in my first post as I find them not that interesting or useful in the bigger picture, potentially even damaging if the looks and clothing are stereotypical.

« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 08:10:49 pm by PresidentLeever »
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I.S.T.

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Re: ROM Hacks: At Long Last Women Run the Shadows too!
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2015, 07:51:07 pm »
Well I haven't played the "dick nazi" hack, but did it come with a (seemingly) serious message about dicks/nazis/dick nazis being underrepresented in games, how it's something the gaming community needs to face up to and how germans/male nudists can finally have a character to relate to? I would guess not, and by the name, I would think it is mocking nazis and not the opposite, or just doing something absurd for the lols and not activism. So spontaneously I don't think it's a good comparison.

My point was we don't really discriminate against content in general unless it's outright hate speech. I suppose I should have been clearer about that.

I'm sorry to hear about your father, Leever. If you'd like, I can edit my comment and alter the suicide part to be something else.
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Chpexo

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Re: ROM Hacks: At Long Last Women Run the Shadows too!
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2015, 07:59:11 pm »
I'm actually curious how many people in this thread actually played the hack.

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Re: ROM Hacks: At Long Last Women Run the Shadows too!
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2015, 08:04:47 pm »
Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal! :P  (Plus, the minority of your female friends who do care about that, should their opinion be dismissed?)
More like real life statistics. The minority doesn't actually exist, my "most of them" refers to the whole group of female friends of mine who play videogames opposed to those who don't. They don't bother with gender, they are more interested in the game itself; think of it like the old debate of graphics vs gameplay, where graphics represent gender and gameplay is contents. When they care about female protagonists, it's for other media.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 08:17:49 pm by Gemini »
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Re: ROM Hacks: At Long Last Women Run the Shadows too!
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2015, 08:08:52 pm »
Everyone who's upset about the opening post is just reading too much into things. Get a life, people. Not everything is an excuse to be annoyed or become offended. You're only making yourself look like a bunch of dorks (Dick Nazis :P).
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goldenband

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Re: ROM Hacks: At Long Last Women Run the Shadows too!
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2015, 08:11:06 pm »
Fair enough, it can be read that way too. But then it means OP doesn't consider PS or SF series to be classic MD RPGs and that is more upsetting than anything else he might've said. :P

I think you've misunderstood. "Whether you're a female gamer who longs to play a classic Sega Genesis RPG as a character that you can identify with" = the phrase "a classic Sega Genesis RPG" means that Shadowrun is a classic Sega Genesis RPG. It's being used in place of the word "Shadowrun", to emphasize that it's a great game. That's all.

It doesn't have to be read as a commentary on any other game's classic-ness, or on the Genesis RPG library as a whole; you can replace the words "a classic Sega Genesis RPG" with "Shadowrun" or "this classic Sega Genesis RPG" and the sentence still works perfectly.

No need to be looking for offense where none is intended -- though frankly, I don't see how "there are very few playable female characters in the Genesis RPG library" is controversial to begin with, because it's 100% true.

This is such a weird thing to get up in arms about!

DarkSol

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Re: ROM Hacks: At Long Last Women Run the Shadows too!
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2015, 08:19:07 pm »
"Whether you're a female gamer who longs to play a classic Sega Genesis RPG as a character that you can identify with"
Is it not heavily implied here that there are no MD RPGs with a playable female char (which is wrong), and that they're needed for a female player to identify with a playable character (also wrong)? I think it's pretty clear.

Many RPGs of that era don't have strong female characters in them, especially on the MegaDrive.  I can honestly think of two on the top of my head, and Alys is not the protagonist of Phantasy Star IV, while Asha, from Monster World IV, is a strong female protagonist. (But MWIV was only released in Japan during the MD era, therefore Western audiences would not have been introduced to her.)

More like real life statistics. The minority doesn't actually exist, my "most of them" refers to the whole group of female friends of mine who do videogames. They don't bother with gender, they are more interested in the game itself. If they care about female protagonists, it's for other media.

It's still anecdotal though, Gemini. Your group of female friends is not representative of the entire female gaming community. Anecdotal evidence is bad.
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Re: ROM Hacks: At Long Last Women Run the Shadows too!
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2015, 08:24:13 pm »
It's still anecdotal though, Gemini. Your group of female friends is not representative of the entire female gaming community. Anecdotal evidence is bad.
There is never an absolute truth to personal taste and my comments never pretended to cover the whole population of women. The point that not all of them are so obsessed with gender still stands.
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Tharthan

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Re: ROM Hacks: At Long Last Women Run the Shadows too!
« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2015, 08:26:20 pm »
There's nothing objectionable about the opening blurb; maybe it's a tad self-important, but so is everything else on the Internet. The offended reactions are practically caricatures of hairtrigger male nerd rage, like something you'd see on Law & Order: SVU -- it's as if you're handing the Sarkeesians of the world a straw man on a silver platter. You're becoming exactly what they're accusing you of being, in other words.

Your post calls to mind a line by Friedrich Nietzsche:

"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

Ergo, one needs to take care that one doesn't become what one loathes nor what people who you are not fond of are stereotyping one's ilk as, all the more so if one deals with those people on a regular basis. Elsewise, one is just as bad.

(Note by the way that I am by no means implying nor calling anybody a monster here. It's just that the quote by goldenband above called that line to mind.)

People can't be going around assuming that everyone who brings up women in video games does so in bad faith, because that's simply not the case.

In fact, it is very, very good that people are questioning why so many female video game characters are always so sexualised, why there has traditionally been a lack of female protagonists in this or that genre etc. etc.

Now if OP was actually mocking certain feminists and I somehow missed the sarcasm then bravo, fooled me.

Here's how I see it:

If video games can

A. Get more female protagonists

and

B. Stop the oh-so persistent trend of sexualising female video game characters all of the time everywhere, then that's a good thing. Personally, I've always been annoyed at how female video game characters tend to be sexualised all over the place for the lone purpose of titillation, honestly, and if people would like to change that, then that's great and I approve.

If you are wondering about the effectiveness thus far, off of the top of my head I can tell you that Shovel Knight's developer openly stated that they kept the sexualisation concern in mind when they developed the characters for the game, which is absolutely rockin'!

---

Even of the people who do act problematically and questionably in the matter, I would say that a fair number of them probably have their hearts in the right place, but then they go too far,  and rather than balancing things they end up trying to vent their frustration at everyone and adopt a "fight fire with fire" approach which in this kind of situation is no good, because it just subjects others to the problems in question.

But even in such a case, their intents are still not malicious. Those individuals have but gone a bit awry and need someone to remind them of what they were trying to do in the first place to help them get back on track.

All in all, it's best to assume good faith of others. And if in doubt, take the time to make sure you fully understand what the other person is saying and that you're not just misinterpreting things and blowing things out of proportion.

Everyone who's upset about the opening post is just reading too much into things.

Agreed.

It's still anecdotal though, Gemini. Your group of female friends is not representative of the entire female gaming community. Anecdotal evidence is bad.

No offence, but RationalWiki is more-or-less the left wing equivalent of Conservapedia (in fact, it was formed as a counter to Conservapedia), so it is not exactly the most reliable nor neutral source for information.

Your point still stands, of course. I just wanted to point that out because it is not the best idea to use non-neutral sources on subjects when one can help it.

Personally, however, I do agree with this:

There is never an absolute truth to personal taste

...as personal taste is indeed subjective by nature, and therefore there aren't really many definites whatsoever about it.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 09:12:21 pm by Tharthan »

PresidentLeever

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Re: ROM Hacks: At Long Last Women Run the Shadows too!
« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2015, 08:37:19 pm »
My point was we don't really discriminate against content in general unless it's outright hate speech. I suppose I should have been clearer about that.

I'm sorry to hear about your father, Leever. If you'd like, I can edit my comment and alter the suicide part to be something else.

No, thanks, but I would appreciate if you commented on the point I was trying to make that maybe you can let more threads just run their course and focus on the constructive content (while warning people and/or moving derailing parts if really needed) instead of locking so soon, and probably punishing everyone on the forum that wanted to discuss the subject instead of flame each other.

Thanks for the clarification and I hope it stays that way. :)


I think you've misunderstood. "Whether you're a female gamer who longs to play a classic Sega Genesis RPG as a character that you can identify with" = the phrase "a classic Sega Genesis RPG" means that Shadowrun is a classic Sega Genesis RPG. It's being used in place of the word "Shadowrun", to emphasize that it's a great game. That's all.

Well maybe I did, english isn't my first language and it's getting rather late where I am. In the context of the rest of the post I think mine was a reasonable interpretation, but only the OP can clarify what he/she meant.

"I don't see how "there are very few playable female characters in the Genesis RPG library" is controversial to begin with, because it's 100% true."

Well I wasn't replying to or trying to contest that statement, so I'll just say please read my first post itt. I'm not "up in arms" about the OP but I did get annoyed about the thread being locked and then exaggerated a bit because of that, I can admit that. I'm also a really slow typer!


Many RPGs of that era don't have strong female characters in them, especially on the MegaDrive.  I can honestly think of two on the top of my head, and Alys is not the protagonist of Phantasy Star IV, while Asha, from Monster World IV, is a strong female protagonist. (But MWIV was only released in Japan during the MD era, therefore Western audiences would not have been introduced to her.)

Well alright, but I feel like you're changing the criteria from female protag to strong, main female protag here, which wasn't what the OP was talking about as I interpreted it. I take protagonist to mean one of the heroes and I do think Alys is a good example, but I agree that this is a relevant distinction that you make, as I've been pointing out before, because fleshed out and positive portrayals are much more important than what is basically a sprite swap of a male char. So I was asking about that in my first post.

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Re: ROM Hacks: At Long Last Women Run the Shadows too!
« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2015, 08:52:27 pm »
I would appreciate if you commented on the point I was trying to make that maybe you can let more threads just run their course and focus on the constructive content (while warning people and/or moving derailing parts if really needed) instead of locking so soon, and probably punishing everyone on the forum that wanted to discuss the subject instead of flame each other.

Oh come now, this forum has a relatively lax attitude towards discussions that might otherwise be locked elsewhere, and one barely sees locked topics here compared to other forums, so I don't think that it is fair at all to say that moderators are going around all over the place locking discussion threads everywhere, because that's not true.

In fact I.S.T. even said:

My point was we don't really discriminate against content in general unless it's outright hate speech.

Which is the tried and true method for allowing for the most neutral discussions as possible on subjects. I don't know of any other way to have anything close to true neutrality otherwise.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 09:00:50 pm by Tharthan »

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Re: ROM Hacks: At Long Last Women Run the Shadows too!
« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2015, 08:56:16 pm »
There is never an absolute truth to personal taste and my comments never pretended to cover the whole population of women. The point that not all of them are so obsessed with gender still stands.

I never said that all women are "so obsessed with gender" issues and equality, nor did I claim that there is an absolute truth to personal tastes in video games.  All I was pointing out is that you said "most" of your female friends didn't care about gender issues in video games, and when I pointed that out, you said that you really meant "none". I mean, have you actually asked each of them what they thought of the issue or is your answer based on what you think they would all say? (Also, what would predicate that kind of discussion? :P )

Well alright, but I feel like you're changing the criteria from female protag to strong, main female protag here, which wasn't what the OP was talking about as I interpreted it. I take protagonist to mean one of the heroes and I do think Alys is a good example, but I agree that this is a relevant distinction that you make, as I've been pointing out before, because fleshed out and positive portrayals are much more important than what is basically a sprite swap of a male char. So I was asking about that in my first post.

Your definition of protagonist isn't in line with what the general definition is.  The protagonist is the main character.  (If we're going with that, Chas, not Alys, is the main character of PSIV.) Also, is it just a sprite swap or is in-game dialog and story modified to address the change from Joshua to Judith?  If it is the former and not the latter, than yes... I would agree that fleshed out and positive portrayals of female protagonists are more important.  On the other hand, if script changes were made, then I don't see how this is really a negative?

Regardless, I think what the OP has done is still pretty interesting and certainly shouldn't be treated derisively.
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