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Author Topic: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.  (Read 11993 times)

SunGodPortal

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2015, 06:56:48 pm »
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The videos do more good... for who.... Nintendo?  How do they at all benefit from them?

I KNOW I can't be the only person in the world who's watched a video on youtube and said to myself "This game looks way more fun than I thought it would be". That's good for business. And to go back to something I said earlier, no review could give you a realistic sense of what a game actually plays like because they are all only about a few minutes long and only graze and generalize each aspect of the game. Actually watching someone play a game is a totally different experience and will give you a more realistic impression of what a game plays like. Anyone can make a game look good or bad with a few clips and deceiving words if that is their desire.

And for games that I already have, I can't tell you how many times I watched a speedrun and dug out a game that I hadn't played in a long time because a video showed me how to make the most annoying parts (that prevented me from replaying as often) much easier. I just don't see how these videos are a realistic threat. Maybe some of the hack videos could be a negligible threat to Mario Maker but not enough of a threat that Nintendo should go after these videos. They're just being childish and playing right into the "giant corporate assholes" stereotype that people love to hate.

And before it comes back again, for me the real issue is not whether Nintendo has a right to do this because they obviously do. "Is it worth the effort?" is the better question. Honestly, I wouldn't even care if it weren't for the fact that I like some of these videos and a number of them have either given me a greater appreciation for a game I already had or showed that a game that I didn't have was actually worth my money and attention. Nintendo is stepping on my balls...
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Disch

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2015, 08:09:54 pm »
I KNOW I can't be the only person in the world who's watched a video on youtube and said to myself "This game looks way more fun than I thought it would be". That's good for business.

Wait... are we talking about removing videos of the actual game?  Or removing videos of hacks?  This whole thread I was under the impression we were talking about the latter.

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And before it comes back again, for me the real issue is not whether Nintendo has a right to do this because they obviously do. "Is it worth the effort?" is the better question.

Oh it's definitely not worth it.  I think I might have said this before too, but history has shown over and over again that going up against internet pop culture is a fight you are sure to lose.

MarkGrass

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2015, 08:22:49 pm »
I KNOW I can't be the only person in the world who's watched a video on youtube and said to myself "This game looks way more fun than I thought it would be". That's good for business. And to go back to something I said earlier, no review could give you a realistic sense of what a game actually plays like because they are all only about a few minutes long and only graze and generalize each aspect of the game. Actually watching someone play a game is a totally different experience and will give you a more realistic impression of what a game plays like. Anyone can make a game look good or bad with a few clips and deceiving words if that is their desire.

No, you're definitely not the only person.

On a personal note, I never trust any reviewer or critic, no matter how reputable they may be. These people don't speak for me and my interests... but like you, seeing and hearing a game being sampled on YouTube can definitely change my mind about something, even if it's the most trivial of ROM hacks.

And for games that I already have, I can't tell you how many times I watched a speedrun and dug out a game that I hadn't played in a long time because a video showed me how to make the most annoying parts (that prevented me from replaying as often) much easier. I just don't see how these videos are a realistic threat. Maybe some of the hack videos could be a negligible threat to Mario Maker but not enough of a threat that Nintendo should go after these videos. They're just being childish and playing right into the "giant corporate assholes" stereotype that people love to hate.

I get what you're saying here, and I could note  few examples of this myself, however, I would argue that speed runs are absolutely awful for business. ROM hack or no ROM hack.

Personally, I only watch speed runs when I don't want to actually play the game, but I'm still interested in seeing what it's all about. The only exception to this is when I want to see that new found glitch that everyone is talking about.

And before it comes back again, for me the real issue is not whether Nintendo has a right to do this because they obviously do. "Is it worth the effort?" is the better question. Honestly, I wouldn't even care if it weren't for the fact that I like some of these videos and a number of them have either given me a greater appreciation for a game I already had or showed that a game that I didn't have was actually worth my money and attention. Nintendo is stepping on my balls...

I don't have balls for Nintendo to step upon, but this recent move is rather unsettling.

As I mentioned before, it wouldn't make any difference if they scrub all videos from the internet - it most certainly isn't going to save their current video game console and it will only help to further hurt the brand by outcasting its own fan base.

I stand by my previous statement: This is yet another dumb move by Nintendo. I'm not sure what, if anything, can redeem them at this point.

Kallisto

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2015, 08:33:27 pm »
I suppose when money is no longer a thing on the Earth then maybe this petty stuff will disappear.

Money causes so much problems as much it creates.

Disch

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2015, 08:37:35 pm »
Rip on money all you want.  But without it we wouldn't have video games at all, and we'd all still be bartering with sheep and chickens.

SunGodPortal

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2015, 08:48:55 pm »
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I get what you're saying here, and I could note  few examples of this myself, however, I would argue that speed runs are absolutely awful for business. ROM hack or no ROM hack.

Personally, I only watch speed runs when I don't want to actually play the game, but I'm still interested in seeing what it's all about. The only exception to this is when I want to see that new found glitch that everyone is talking about.

Yeah, it does go both ways. For example (though not a current one), I realized that I would never beat Ninja Gaiden II because once I got the feeling that the whole game was about memorizing enemy spawn patterns and having no chance if you didn't, I decided to watch a video of someone doing a deathless speedrun and I will never play it again. It's just not fun (IMO). Though ninja(s) and the soundtrack are badass.

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Wait... are we talking about removing videos of the actual game?  Or removing videos of hacks?  This whole thread I was under the impression we were talking about the latter.

I've been going back and forth because I was under the impression that Nintendo was attacking both. I've been talking more about consumer oriented stuff for the last post or two because I want my posts to be read as more than just me trying to justify less popular forms of piracy. I got the feeling that talking about hacks was leading people to pay more attention to what I was saying rather than the intent and reason behind my words. Some things are just an easy target.

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I suppose when money is no longer a thing on the Earth then maybe this petty stuff will disappear.

Money causes so much problems as much it creates.

We're a LONG way off from that. It will be a long time before "socialism" isn't considered a "bad word".

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Rip on money all you want.  But without it we wouldn't have video games at all, and we'd all still be bartering with sheep and chickens.

Money is dirty. You never know when the dollar bill you hold in your hand has been in some skanky stripper's crack. Ew...
War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength.

KingMike

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #46 on: September 12, 2015, 08:50:58 pm »
I do remember reading years ago one review, I think it was for Super Mario Galaxy 2, where the site admitted Nintendo told the reviewers they were only allowed to talk about certain levels.
That right there makes you kind of question the credibility of the professional review system. Though maybe the companies don't want major spoilers in reviews but still if they can have the ability to censor reviewers who get advance copies of copies, that's that...
(obviously they wouldn't be able to do anything to someone who reviewed a self-purchased retail copy, but then that site would be behind)
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Disch

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #47 on: September 12, 2015, 09:15:55 pm »
Money is dirty. You never know when the dollar bill you hold in your hand has been in some skanky stripper's crack. Ew...

Pfft.  It's 2015.  Money is in plastic/virtual form now, not bill form.

SunGodPortal

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #48 on: September 12, 2015, 09:19:18 pm »
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I do remember reading years ago one review, I think it was for Super Mario Galaxy 2, where the site admitted Nintendo told the reviewers they were only allowed to talk about certain levels.
That right there makes you kind of question the credibility of the professional review system. Though maybe the companies don't want major spoilers in reviews but still if they can have the ability to censor reviewers who get advance copies of copies, that's that...
(obviously they wouldn't be able to do anything to someone who reviewed a self-purchased retail copy, but then that site would be behind)

I think this is a good example of why "professional" reviews can't be trusted. If you are too honest (or brutal, depending), game companies aren't going to benefit from your reviews and then you'll find yourself reviewing less and less. It's therefore in the interest of the reviewing party to say mostly or only positive things about the games you are reviewing. That's creates and obvious bias.

Non-commercial reviews I believe are not that much more trustworthy because everyone has different tastes and so if you just don't like a game (regardless of quality) it's easy to make it look like crap just because that's what you feel like doing. Outside of a professional setting it would be that much easier for someone to hate on a prefectly good game simply because they didn't like the main character's hair or some other trivial detail that prevented them from giving the game a chance. Some people are just silly like that.

When you watch a video of someone playing a game and playing it well you don't have to worry about any of the above issues. You can just set back and see the game for what it is rather than how someone is trying to paint it.

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Pfft.  It's 2015.  Money is in plastic/virtual form now, not bill form.

Pfft. It's 2015, yet tangible money still exists and is in constant use.
War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength.

Bregalad

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #49 on: September 13, 2015, 01:15:17 pm »
I don't understand. If you want to see how a game plays, you certainly won't be watching a speedrun, because those plays the game as quickly as possible, often by exploiting all kind of glitches. You'll only watch a speedrun if you already know the game very well.

Thus the argument that "speedruns are free publicity for the game" is nonsense.

And personally I'd rather play a game than watch someone play it - the only exception being if I weren't able to successfully get past a point of the game without cheating and/or if the game's control are horrible so I'd rather not play it.

Game reviews are very informative before you are going to buy a game, as long as you pay attention to many reviews and not just one, obviously, and that you keep in mind different people have different tastes.

thedarkbanshee

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2015, 01:23:07 pm »
Mario maker would not have been a concept if not for rom hackers. Mario maker is based on rom hacking and with the use of new heros that we all know comes directually from a hack called mario cross over. If anything nintendo owes its new found creativity and sucess to rom hackers specifically. Becides the hackers are their biggest fans for making an exysting product better. If that were not true hacks would not exist.

FAST6191

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #51 on: September 13, 2015, 01:56:32 pm »
I don't understand. If you want to see how a game plays, you certainly won't be watching a speedrun, because those plays the game as quickly as possible, often by exploiting all kind of glitches. You'll only watch a speedrun if you already know the game very well.

Thus the argument that "speedruns are free publicity for the game" is nonsense.

There is that whole "any publicity/anything that keeps you in the public consciousness is good publicity" concept, especially in this world of downloadable games. Likewise there being scope for some kind of mastery, and video evidence thereof, is not a bad thing either -- I find competition quite boring but I can see why some enjoy watching it and this would seem to be a variation on the theme. Not all speedruns would be helpful here but the same token some let's plays do a serviceable job of reviewing the game.

How useful they as a whole is very much up for debate but I am not sure I can dismiss the thing for the reasons you mention.

Mario maker would not have been a concept if not for rom hackers. Mario maker is based on rom hacking and with the use of new heros that we all know comes directually from a hack called mario cross over. If anything nintendo owes its new found creativity and sucess to rom hackers specifically. Becides the hackers are their biggest fans for making an exysting product better. If that were not true hacks would not exist.

That might be pushing it a bit. I have seen level editors in games (or separately) and means of sharing them for decades at this point -- lode runner, one of the earlier attempts at this, was released in 1983. Likewise Nintendo has experimented a bit with this in things like warioware DIY.
Doubtless level editors, ROM hackers and more have been responsible for a lot over the years, some of the more interesting comments to that end came from John Romero when he was playing through Doom with some people at IGN
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUU7_BthBWM


On the professional review thing I would be interested to see the specifics of that Mario Galaxy review. I have been asked not to spoil story events past a certain level before (just story events -- I would have been quite free to say the ??th level had bad enemy placement or the story as a whole had problems), and I assume we all saw what went with the Shadows of Mordor thing not so long ago ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjQHfX4WF4U ) as well as the myriad shady things done over the years as far as previews and early info, but not talking about certain levels would be a step beyond anything I have been subject to or seen. That said I have not dealt with Nintendo reviews so who knows.

SunGodPortal

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #52 on: September 13, 2015, 03:44:23 pm »
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I don't understand. If you want to see how a game plays, you certainly won't be watching a speedrun, because those plays the game as quickly as possible, often by exploiting all kind of glitches. You'll only watch a speedrun if you already know the game very well.

Thus the argument that "speedruns are free publicity for the game" is nonsense.

And personally I'd rather play a game than watch someone play it - the only exception being if I weren't able to successfully get past a point of the game without cheating and/or if the game's control are horrible so I'd rather not play it.

When I use speedruns to reference how a game plays I don't watch the whole video or anything. I find a video (try to find a glitchless run) and skip ahead 10-15 minutes and watch just for a few minutes. The level of insight that provides cannot be replaced with a review.

The only speedruns I tend to watch all the way through are games that I have already played. Usually it's a game I've beaten many, many times/have worn out and on rare occasions it's because I've decided that a game is no longer worth my time/effort but I'm still curious about how it ends. But in this case it is ALWAYS a game that I have already played and own. Otherwise it's just spoiling all of the fun, right? How exciting would opening your presents on Christmas morning be if you already knew exactly what you were getting? hehe

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Game reviews are very informative before you are going to buy a game, as long as you pay attention to many reviews and not just one, obviously, and that you keep in mind different people have different tastes.

But that seems like a much less efficient method than what I have described above. Would you rather read a spec sheet about something or actually watch someone use it? The second one will usually give you a better idea of what you will be getting. With speedruns you get the advantage of seeing someone who has mastered the game and therefore can gauge it's gameplay even better.

On the other hand (since they've been mentioned here), I don't care for "Let's Play" videos and don't see them as useful (though they obviously would be useful for the devs to assess the learning curve and other aspects). Most I've seen are too long and you have to watch someone else clumsly stumble around a game as they get used to it. Watching someone who knows what they are doing will give you a better sense of what is possible. Like how it would be better to watch a professional tear up a piano rather than gauge how useful the instrument is by watching someone take lessons.
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FAST6191

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #53 on: September 13, 2015, 05:15:23 pm »
If the reviews you are reading do not at least have a section where they attempt to break the game or devise techniques for beating the game... I do not want to say efficiently but combos/techniques that render it easy street then you are reading the wrong reviews.

Bregalad

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #54 on: September 13, 2015, 05:34:09 pm »
I find a video (try to find a glitchless run) and skip ahead 10-15 minutes and watch just for a few minutes. The level of insight that provides cannot be replaced with a review.
Then your method for juging games before buying them is probably horrible. You're only watching a very specific part of the game, while a reviewer will summary the whole 50-100 hours experience in a few paragraphs. A review will get you much more insight as watching a random 3 minutes of gameplay, let alone if those are done by a speedrunner that will not play the game "normally".

Personally the only two uses I have of videoes of another person playing a game is
1) as a walkthgough, whenever I'm lost and need to find what to do next, or if I want to see if there is a better technique to beat a boss than the one I was using.
2) f I lost the game or cannot play it any longer, such as old PC games that cannot be easily run on modern machines because of Windows incompatibility problems.
3) If the game's control are so horrible I don't want to play it myself (such as, say, Ghostbusters or Cheetahmen II)

KaioShin

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #55 on: September 13, 2015, 05:50:08 pm »
A well written review will succinctly break down and discuss the mechanics of the whole game in two or three paragraphs. In a video I have to watch half an hour to get an impression on one level of the game, a tiny snapshot. If it's a complex game it won't tell me anything about how good things are balanced overall, how mechanics interact later, etc.

There is nothing I hate more about the current internet trends than that everything needs to be a video. I was playing Arkham Knight and looking for some last collectible objects and I wanted to check a guide so I'm not wasting time stumbling around randomly. It would have been super efficient to have a table, sorted by locations, with a screenshot of the map and of the game screen for each collectible. But no, they released a video walkthrough for it. So I had to randomly skip through a 20 minute video, trying to hit 5 seconds of information that was relevant to me. It's bullshit, it's a massive waste of my time.

Watching a speedrun of a game as a "review" I have to invest a ton of time for information that could be summed up into a few paragraphs, while I'm getting spoiled all over, and getting expectations about how a game has to look when it's played well that I won't be able to fulfill just playing casually. I literally see zero upside to this "review" method whatsoever.
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SunGodPortal

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #56 on: September 13, 2015, 06:47:47 pm »
*sigh*

A speedrun is a valuable tool for seeing what a game actually plays like once a player knows what they are doing. It alone is not enough to properly judge a game, but I never said it was. It's just something I use to help me make a more informed decision. After I read up on a game (be it a review or just specs), a video of someone actually playing it helps me see if what was said about the game was true and if it appears to be as interesting or uninteresting as it sounds. If you guys don't see the value in that, I'm not going to waste much more of my time trying to convince you. I'm starting to feel like I'm running in circles...

EDIT: I don't see video reviews as much help either. How many times has a movie been made to look awesome by the little 5-10 second snippets you saw, only to be crap?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 06:58:14 pm by SunGodPortal »
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FAST6191

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #57 on: September 13, 2015, 06:51:17 pm »
There is nothing I hate more about the current internet trends than that everything needs to be a video.

I have met this a few times now, even in ROM hacking (how I am supposed to edit a hour of me messing around in a hex editor, RAM viewer and other things into a coherent video I have no idea about) but I suppose more than that I can least hope someone one day trips over a dictionary and takes an interest. I hold out no hope that any given random would find a video editor and learn some video editing.

Isao Kronos

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #58 on: September 13, 2015, 08:17:31 pm »
so basically this thread boils down to "oldschool japan company is weird and has weird opinions of internet shenangians"


am i right

Seihen

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #59 on: September 13, 2015, 08:53:18 pm »
Mario maker would not have been a concept if not for rom hackers. Mario maker is based on rom hacking and with the use of new heros that we all know comes directually from a hack called mario cross over.

So, there was no such thing as RPG Maker (on PC and pretty much every single console + handheld since SNES), Mario Paint, Wacky Worlds Creativity Studio (Genesis), Fighter Maker (PSX/PS2 and Windows), or any other game making software? Halo never had a map designer?

Sorry, but you're wrong. Level and map designers have been around since the NES days in Excitebike.