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Author Topic: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.  (Read 19794 times)

SunGodPortal

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #60 on: September 13, 2015, 10:03:31 pm »
Quote
so basically this thread boils down to "oldschool japan company is weird and has weird opinions of internet shenangians"


am i right

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MarkGrass

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #61 on: September 13, 2015, 10:41:38 pm »
I don't understand. If you want to see how a game plays, you certainly won't be watching a speedrun, because those plays the game as quickly as possible, often by exploiting all kind of glitches.

For me, that's the entire point.

If I truly don't give a crap about it then I definitely don't want to spend hours of my life watching a video of it. Otherwise, I'm stuck with some amateur "reviewer" who makes immature sound effects and other failed attempts at humor, and that's if I'm even lucky enough to find something about it. Or even worse, some asshole who records every their every facial expression and embeds a small view in the a corner.

Also, not every every speed run exploits known glitches.

You'll only watch a speedrun if you already know the game very well.

Thus the argument that "speedruns are free publicity for the game" is nonsense.

Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion, man. ;P

There's always exceptions.

obscurumlux01

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #62 on: September 14, 2015, 05:43:47 pm »
There is nothing I hate more about the current internet trends than that everything needs to be a video.

Simple reasons

One is that the majority of people like watching video reviews on YouTube and those get many more views/ad-revenue compared to standard written text reviews

Two is that text reviews can be copied/pasted/plagiarized in whole or in part with little to no effort by anyone.  It has happened before and makes such things far less worthwhile.  By contrast, video reviews/info is much more effort to plagiarize than right click and copy/paste.

Related tangent
Spoiler:
The most notable plagiarist of video gaming content would be Anita Sarkeesian who plagiarized both fan-art and the playthroughs of several 'Lets Play' people who do playthroughs without commentary like cubex55 (for archival/historical preservation purposes).  But hey, nobody bothers to mention that tidbit in the mainstream media.  Go figure.  I guess getting close to ~$300k isn't enough to pay for someone to properly license content or double-check how fair use requires attribution to count and might not count at all due to the large amount of commercial income she's generated from her videos & resulting PR.

So for most outlets, they go where the money is.  The money is in video.
As a bonus, mobile device internet use has skyrocketed and with it has internet video use.  A lot easier to watch a video than to read text on a tiny mobile screen.

Gamma V

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #63 on: September 15, 2015, 01:01:01 pm »
This discussion reminds me of an episode of Game Theory where MatPat mentions one of Nintendo's past attacks on YouTube videos of their games.  For those not interested in clicking the link, MatPat theorizes that one reason Nintendo is losing the 8th Gen Console War is that Nintendo keeps taking down videos showing their games.  Yeah, they will advertise their games on TV, but not everyone watches TV or the channels where these ads are likely to run.  There's one game I own for which I've never seen an ad on TV: Kirby Squeak Squad.  I learned about this game from the internet, and became more interested when I saw it in action through YouTube Let's Plays.  Tempting as it was to download a ROM of the game, I decided to wait until I could get it legitimately.
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obscurumlux01

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #64 on: September 15, 2015, 04:25:09 pm »
Nintendo is one of very few companies that are not just openly HOSTILE to YouTubers but outright extort them for advertising revenue.
Even when some YouTubers play along they are not permitted to cover any games outside of the (very narrow) scope of games that Nintendo has authorized.

Nintendo doesn't deserve one iota of your respect or money; not anymore.
They have not given a damn about non-casuals since the Wii was released.

Sadly they are the ONLY option (aside from some PC games) for those with young kids getting into gaming.  I'd honestly say just buy retro games & consoles instead (like NES and SNES/Genesis) but that is just how I'd do it.  The whole 'games for kids' genre is pretty terrible compared to retro ones.

You'd probably be better off grabbing a SNES cartridge of Kirby Super Star instead.  Much better investment of your money in a fantastic game.
Besides, you know the DS game is just gonna be a rehash 'hack' of the older stuff anyways.  Original thoughts aren't part of most Nintendo releases (Splatoon being the only new IP in decades).

KingMike

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #65 on: September 15, 2015, 04:36:38 pm »
The difference I see with uploading a Let's Play video vs. a movie or music, is that the game requires effort to play, and so the playthrough is content being created (whereas illegally uploading an unedited movie or music does not).
I don't see watching a play video deterring sales much different than someone borrowing a DVD from a friend, watching and deciding they don't want to buy it. (I'd have said Netflix or Redbox, except I'm sure that's still somewhat making money for the copyright owner)
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SunGodPortal

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #66 on: September 15, 2015, 05:02:04 pm »
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The difference I see with uploading a Let's Play video vs. a movie or music, is that the game requires effort to play, and so the playthrough is content being created (whereas illegally uploading an unedited movie or music does not).
I don't see watching a play video deterring sales much different than someone borrowing a DVD from a friend, watching and deciding they don't want to buy it. (I'd have said Netflix or Redbox, except I'm sure that's still somewhat making money for the copyright owner)

That's a good way to look at it. I totally agree with this. Conversely, a video of all of the cutscenes strung together would be a different story.
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chillyfeez

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #67 on: September 15, 2015, 05:51:07 pm »
That's an interesting spin, KingMike, but has it been tested on the legal battlefield?
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SunGodPortal

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #68 on: September 15, 2015, 06:00:40 pm »
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That's an interesting spin, KingMike, but has it been tested on the legal battlefield?

It's a good arguement anyway and from my position in this conversation it's perfect since I've made it a point to focus on what makes sense rather than what is legal (because if we only focus on the law we would never be allowed to do anything fun and this site wouldn't exist). :)
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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #69 on: September 15, 2015, 06:16:57 pm »
So, in a nutshell, if you make money from your let's plays Nintendo wants a slice? Or that would cover any let's play in general? Also what about alternatives such as Twitch?
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KingMike

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #70 on: September 15, 2015, 06:24:02 pm »
I think the biggest complaints about Nintendo's plan, last I read, is that it would let Nintendo decide what games are allowed to be played and it demanded no games for rival consoles on the same channel.
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SunGodPortal

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #71 on: September 15, 2015, 07:20:49 pm »
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So, in a nutshell, if you make money from your let's plays Nintendo wants a slice? Or that would cover any let's play in general? Also what about alternatives such as Twitch?

That's where I feel a little funny about this stuff. I don't think people should make any money off these videos other than Nintendo. The videos themselves I feel do no harm, but making money from them is kind of like stealing (look who's talking, right?). In my opinion Nintendo is the only entity that should make ANY money off of their games besides people who are reselling their own copies of said games *clarification* in the used game market.

Before anyone pieces all of this together, I'll admit that my logic is not always air-tight.

Quote
I think the biggest complaints about Nintendo's plan, last I read, is that it would let Nintendo decide what games are allowed to be played and it demanded no games for rival consoles on the same channel.

If that is the case then that's just nothing but a bunch of BS. It sounds like they are paranoid and petrified by perceived threats to their image and the competition. How weak, Nintendo...
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 07:31:19 pm by SunGodPortal »
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FAST6191

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #72 on: September 15, 2015, 08:29:17 pm »
So, in a nutshell, if you make money from your let's plays Nintendo wants a slice? Or that would cover any let's play in general? Also what about alternatives such as Twitch?

That happened before. This was more about them going after those doing various types of speedrun and ROM hacks but yeah that was the gist of it.  https://r.ncp.nintendo.net/terms/ has the terms, the most interesting aspect was you could sign over your channel for a slightly more favourable cut though Nintendo would take from everything there (more http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-02-05-nintendo-clarifies-youtube-revenue-share-program-asks-users-to-delete-non-nintendo-videos ). I see such things as a function of more general accounting but had not seen it for something like this in a while.

As for alternatives... there are not really any that operate on the same scale as youtube and the agreement linked above specifically applies to youtube. Twitch were at least a bit less copyright happy, some say things have changed a bit since they got purchased and in the run up to it though.

"Sadly they [Nintendo] are the ONLY option (aside from some PC games) for those with young kids getting into gaming."
What do you seek? Easy controls, some kind of moral guidelines, educational games or something else entirely? Because other than educational games (which are pretty much a PC, maybe handheld, mobile and web affair these days) you can do well enough to fill hours such that it probably goes into "too much" territory on most consoles, perhaps more so if you are willing to sit there and take some of the control work in various driving games and such like. With the possible exception of the lego games not so many aimed more directly at kids manage the halfway amusing for all to play thing like some of the 8-16 bit platformers

HaxorKyo

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #73 on: September 19, 2015, 01:55:54 pm »
I say just hit them harder than ever. Create a rom hacking company which makes badass rom hacks of Nintendos IP's. People will LOVE the new romhacks and support the work. Nintendo will shut down the rom hacking company thus hurting lots of fans and hurting their own image. People then hate Nintendo and Nintendo goes out of business because no one will support them anymore.

Why do we need to force Nintendo's hand in going out of business? they're well on their way as it is. Sure, they have a major surplus of Wii/DS money but that shit isn't going to last.  They can't even handle Amiibo properly after almost a year. They release the New 3DS and don't even make games for it.  It's insane that people still support them.

I'm not saying this as a fanboy for Sony or Microsoft. quite the contrary actually. I'm saying this as an extremely disappointing, hardcore Nintendo fan from birth. I can't possibly be the only one that's disappointing like this.

Bahamut ZERO

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #74 on: September 19, 2015, 03:12:06 pm »
You're not. I grew up coddled up to my sweet, sweet SNES (My mom taught me how to read using FF4, which started my addiction to RPGS), and I've been disappointed since the Wii/DS era.  I enjoyed the N64 (even with some of their design/hardware choices), and I loved the Gamecube (really felt ahead of it's time in ways).


Sure there are some pretty good games for both systems here and there, but this was pretty much the point where Nintendo began dishing out controller gimmicks over gameplay.  I've seen very few games outside of first party titles for the wii that make an actual innovative control scheme that wasn't "flail your arms and do jerking-off motions to win!" I kid you not, I've actually done this in multiple games and began tearing things apart, which admitedly I find hilarious in ways.  Though to be fair, one game actually uses that as a real control mechanic (No More Heroes) which is one of the few non-first party titles I could play for more than 10 minutes.

The DS, on the otherhand, is for the most part pretty enjoyable. Definitely better gaming options compared to the wii (and for the most part, the Sony PSP, it's competition for it's time).  It still felt like it was just a GBA with more screens and buttons, but at least the games generally made better use of its control gimmicks, minus the games that FORCED them with no alternative schemes or basic button controls (like those god-awful Zelda titles and Star Fox).

Now they focus on that AND try to put touch screens into every orrifice they can.  Not to mention they (once again) gave themselves limitations that drove off a fair amount of 3rd party support, starting with the Wii and continuing into the Wii U.

3DS on the other hand, reminds me of a little handheld Gamecube with some of the stuff I've seen. If I could find one for a decent price at a pawn shop I'd have a field day with some of it's library.

But all of that is just my personal opinion, and how I feel about Nintendo these days.
----------------------------------------------------


As far as Let's Plays and Youtube videos go, I'm quite neutral about 'em. I'm not really into watching someone play a game if I'm not sitting in the room with them, but as other people said they are a good way of seeing a game in action outside of a review or gameplay trailer.
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KingMike

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #75 on: September 20, 2015, 01:37:38 am »
Since it was asked before why would Nintendo complain about ROM hacks on youtube yet do nothing to repro makers?

The answer is: probably because it's easier for Nintendo to do. All they need to do is file a complaint to youtube.

There was a time Nightcrawler tried to take down a repro maker making repros of his translation patches. I believe he reported the repro maker to his ISP or US-based website host or whatever. Something like that.
Site went down for like a day or something maybe until the repro maker just found a new host in like the Middle East or Asia, somewhere known to be more tolerant of copyright infringement.

Even though if they're in the US, Nintendo could probably sue the site owner directly, but I'm assuming there's quite of bureaucratic legal work they'd still have to work through to make it all formal and such.
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shadowmanwkp

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #76 on: September 21, 2015, 04:49:28 am »
Since it was asked before why would Nintendo complain about ROM hacks on youtube yet do nothing to repro makers?

The answer is: probably because it's easier for Nintendo to do. All they need to do is file a complaint to youtube.

There was a time Nightcrawler tried to take down a repro maker making repros of his translation patches. I believe he reported the repro maker to his ISP or US-based website host or whatever. Something like that.
Site went down for like a day or something maybe until the repro maker just found a new host in like the Middle East or Asia, somewhere known to be more tolerant of copyright infringement.

Even though if they're in the US, Nintendo could probably sue the site owner directly, but I'm assuming there's quite of bureaucratic legal work they'd still have to work through to make it all formal and such.

In my opinion this is also a big fault of youtube.  Content ID matching allows a lot of false positives, and also false negatives (flip or slow down footage). There's barely any human reviewing going on unless you're part of a multi-channel network that has a legal team (polaris, machinima, etc.). Bigger channels can usually make a successful counterclaim, but the smaller fry will almost always get hit by an unfair strike. Nintendo profits from this by simply feeding nearly all their game footage into content ID. Nintendo footage from a channel not associated from them? Bam, instant ad profits to Nintendo withheld, until a counterclaim. Even if you're doing a review or showing sample footage you still can be hit by a penalty or even lose your youtube account. YT is so big nowadays that you can't get around them, so if you want your video to get noticed there aren't that many sites to go to.

Then there's also manual takedowns. If you as a company don't like that one review made by a youtuber, simply file a complaint and YT will remove it instantly. Usually it takes several days before that video shows up after a successful counterclaim. Incidents like those are too many to count, and unless your channel is big enough to make a fuss out of it, you won't see that video ever again. For big channels this is usually positive for them, because the fuss gives them more publicity if they speak out against it, but smaller channels won't be heard.

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #77 on: October 04, 2015, 09:06:05 pm »
A lot of people are trying to make money off this stuff. Anytime money is involved corporations will want a cut. Might get them to back off by promising proceeds to charity and whatnot.

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #78 on: October 08, 2015, 03:51:24 pm »
All i see around from most people crying over it is the true pirates/emulation freebies types that get steamed and rowed up over something they can't get free any longer.

Rodimus Primal

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #79 on: October 14, 2015, 08:39:31 am »
I wonder if this pertains to games that will never see the light of day in the US, like BS Zelda or Seiken Dentetsu 3. I just started making videos and intend to put them on Youtube, but for rom hacks I should make sure not to monetize anything for rom hacks...