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Author Topic: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.  (Read 19798 times)

Disch

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2015, 12:38:56 am »
The 21st century does not allow "hiding".

Well... maybe not completely hide.  But they can certainly make it harder for someone to stumble across it.


I'm not sure whether I should laugh at the "spitefully run a business into the ground just to piss off nintendo fans" idea just at how ridiculous it is... or if you were being sort of serious.


Regardless, ideals are nice but don't always come into play in business.  Particularly in a field as competitive as video games.  "Free games for everyone" / "Free video posting for everyone" -- these are nice concepts, but they don't help with Nintendo's bottom line.  The idea that it's free promotion for them is absurd -- that's the same argument people were making about music piracy back in the Napster days -- and we all know it was BS.

Nintendo taking steps to secure their IP by whatever means -- even if it ends up pissing off some pirates who are already stealing from them -- I'm sorry, but I just don't see what the problem is.

Kallisto

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2015, 12:49:16 am »
This is slightly off topic, but my only problem with Japanese video game companies really is their outdated way of thinking when attacking translators when deep down the official company will never release a game in english for years or forever. Heck, they purposely forget their IPs for many reasons.
 
I can't tell if a company's japanese pride is hurt when someone outside the company outclasses them or something else is going on. The only company I can think of that didn't show their ass is Falcom.

chillyfeez

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2015, 01:35:52 am »
Quote
I'm not sure whether I should laugh at the "spitefully run a business into the ground just to piss off nintendo fans" idea just at how ridiculous it is... or if you were being sort of serious.
I can't answer to the original intent, but when I read that, my initial understanding was that it was a direct reference to what Napster did. I don't think it's realistic, but mostly because the precedent of Napster is one most people would not want to follow. We're not all as badass as that guy who started Napster (Justin Timberlake, I think, right?  ;) )
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SunGodPortal

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2015, 01:49:41 am »
Quote
"Free games for everyone" / "Free video posting for everyone" -- these are nice concepts, but they don't help with Nintendo's bottom line.  The idea that it's free promotion for them is absurd -- that's the same argument people were making about music piracy back in the Napster days -- and we all know it was BS.

Okay, let's shift gears away from the hacking videos.... A free video of someone playing a game is not the same thing as downloading a copy of the game without paying for it. You press play, but you are not playing the game in the video yourself. Nor is a free video of someone playing a game a replacement for the gaming experience. Therefore, a youtube video of someone playing a game is free promotion. If it hurts sales it will only be because people had a chance to see how much a game sucks before buying it. That is only fair. In my opinion that is much better than someone being tricked into buying something that is crap and regretting it later. People don't make enough money these days to just throw it around like that. I can't tell you how many times I bought an album and beforehand, I heard the band saying "This is our best album yet", only to be horribly disappointed with my purchase. A few years ago I made a rule for myself: Never buy an album that I have not already heard. When a new album comes out that I'm interested in, I download it and if it's worth buying I buy it, if it sucks I delete it and think about how lucky I am that I didn't waste my money on it. I'm not going to pretend that my specific example here is "right" but that is how I protect myself from being duped into promoting garbage. Taking down videos of stuff like speedruns would make it almost impossible to see how a game ACTUALLY plays and if it is worth buying. That sucks. And let's not kid ourselves by saying that game reviews are trustworthy.

Quote
Nintendo taking steps to secure their IP by whatever means -- even if it ends up pissing off some pirates who are already stealing from them -- I'm sorry, but I just don't see what the problem is.

The problem is that it is unnecessary and if you refer to my paragraph above, it is a blow to consumers.
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KaioShin

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2015, 03:35:06 am »
And let's not kid ourselves by saying that game reviews are trustworthy.
Reviews are perfectly fine if one is an intelligent human being that can read and understand that different people have different point of views. The only reviews that are untrustworthy are exclusive reviews that come out while everyone else is still embargoed.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2015, 03:43:16 am by KaioShin »
All my posts are merely personal opinions and not statements of fact, even if they are not explicitly prefixed by "In my opinion", "IMO", "I believe", or similar modifiers. By reading this disclaimer you agree to reply in spirit of these conditions.

obscurumlux01

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2015, 06:53:35 am »
The thing that gets me about this the most is wierd.  Nintendo has been caught red-handed with stealing open-sourced code and using it in their 'Virtual Console' setup without attribution or GPL-exemption consent.  They don't care about the rights of anyone else yet they want to pull this garbage.

Speedruns already have dedicated communities online, but sharing them via YouTube was always admittedly easier.

I find it amusing that all this comes around the time that Nintendo wants to put out their lame-ass 'Super Mario Maker' and the entire internet does a *yawn* and says 'Hey Nintendo we did that over 10 years ago and welcome to 2005'.  Super Mario Bros X is just one example and there are so many others that have been around.

Some of the earliest rom hacks ever made were done on Mario games.  I guess if Nintendo wants to continue pulling this crap (and ignoring the people on etsy who are directly selling Mario and Zelda stuff for profit because reasons) then we'll see how it goes.

Avoid any first-party Nintendo stuff on YouTube and move to alternative venues.  Done.

September 12, 2015, 07:02:05 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
*snip*

Another idiot clueless indie dev that doesn't know how to business whines about it on GamaSutra and is linked by clueless people like you as some kind of 'proof' on the matter.
No, that isn't proof.  That game didn't sell because you could read the first few sentences and look at the screenshot and know exactly why people passed it up.
2D action platformer with a cutesy aesthetic.  Go on Steam and you are drowning in them.  There's nothing about that game to differentiate it among the crowd so it got lost in the shuffle.  Imagine that.  Then idiot clueless indie dev whines about 'omg why maybe it is the bad consumers not knowing how to throw money at me OMG WHY' over and over.

It had nothing to do with YouTube and everything to do with the simple fact that the press came to the same conclusion I did and avoided that junk like the plague.  Make something original or GTFO; indie or not you better make it worth the time I take to spit at it or you will be thrown aside faster than you can go WTF.  The market is SATURATED with '2D action platformers'.  Like it hasn't been this saturated with platformers since the initial saturation back in the 8-bit and 16-bit eras.  But aside from all the 'mascot game' knockoffs there were a few forgotten gems (like Ristar) that did something new for the time and had an awesome aesthetic.

EDIT:  On the whole 'but it is piracy' argument.  YOU CANNOT PIRATE A GAME THAT IS NO LONGER SOLD AT RETAIL IN THE ORIGINAL FORMAT.  And no, Virtual Console doesn't count.  Virtual Console is just emulation.  Same crap but overpriced crap.  Also Virtual Console uses plagiarized open-source GPL code AND makes money off of it to boot.  There's no reason to support that kind of trash.  Piracy involves withholding income in favor of a free alternative.  If the product is not available for sale then there is no income being withheld.  That would be copyright infringement because garbage copyright laws are garbage.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2015, 07:08:15 am by obscurumlux01 »

Disch

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2015, 10:33:25 am »
Quote
YOU CANNOT PIRATE A GAME THAT IS NO LONGER SOLD AT RETAIL IN THE ORIGINAL FORMAT.

Are you making up your own definitions for words again?

You certainly can.  It's called Intellectual Property Rights.  It doesn't matter whether or not Nintendo is actively selling something -- if they own the rights to it, you can't legally obtain it through means they don't approve of.

(Of course, I'm oversimplifying here)
« Last Edit: September 12, 2015, 10:46:36 am by Disch »

chillyfeez

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2015, 10:46:01 am »
Yeah, that's like saying taking something out of my house without my permission isn't stealing because I wasn't trying to sell it...
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Disch

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2015, 10:56:10 am »
I can't tell you how many times I bought an album and beforehand, I heard the band saying "This is our best album yet", only to be horribly disappointed with my purchase. A few years ago I made a rule for myself: Never buy an album that I have not already heard. When a new album comes out that I'm interested in, I download it and if it's worth buying I buy it, if it sucks I delete it and think about how lucky I am that I didn't waste my money on it. I'm not going to pretend that my specific example here is "right" but that is how I protect myself from being duped into promoting garbage.

This is a potential problem with any purchase, isn't it?  I mean if you're saying that reviews can't be trusted....

How can I know whether or not <insert food product or restaurant here> will be any good until I buy it for myself and find out?
Or <insert movie here>?
Or <insert soap here>?
Or <insert anything you purchase here>?

Isao Kronos

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2015, 10:57:01 am »
you wouldn't download a dog, who wants a malware dog that barks in russian
will hackrom for Red Lobster Cheddar Bay biscuits

FAST6191

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2015, 11:00:47 am »
Do you have evidence of them using GPL code and not releasing changes for their emulators (they do have a page for code/changes http://www.nintendo.co.jp/support/oss/index.html# )? Various companies have used emulators over the years but licenses do seem to be respected. Likewise various people have analysed the VC emulators, mainly with an eye to getting them more compatible or hacking in some features more commonly seen in conventional emulators, and I have not seen anything of that.

I do not know how you so spectacularly misread KaioShin's comment. That is some good going there. You might well be right about over saturation not helping this game, however the comment was more that in spite of let's play popularity it still did not perform.

As for original then the continued popularity of the annual games would seem to say otherwise. Original can be nice, good is better though.

you wouldn't download a dog
Please
http://hgdownload.cse.ucsc.edu/downloads.html#dog

Actually it is probably going to require more hard drive space than I have right now. Let me delete some stuff and then I will download a dog.

Isao Kronos

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2015, 11:01:51 am »
a college dog? really? oh boy a dog that makes questionable decisions and parties all the time
will hackrom for Red Lobster Cheddar Bay biscuits

MarkGrass

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2015, 02:23:29 pm »
Censorship much, Nintendo?

Pretty dumb move to alienate the very same people who likely gave inspiration for Mario Maker, especially when the company has been in dire straits for years.

Nintendo's nostalgia machine will eventually break down completely. The very same people they depend upon to buy the same recycled ideas year after year aren't going to be around to support them forever, and the facts are everywhere to support this notion. This blatant action to shit on the fanbase is a prime example of how desperate they really are.

Even if they managed to completely scrub the entire internet of ROM hacks, nothing would be enough to save this complete flop of a video game console. The writing is on the wall.

Mario Maker most definitely looks like a lot of fun, but doesn't allow for custom AI, custom textures, custom music and so on. The right people who are interested enough will find their way.

Disch

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2015, 02:49:51 pm »
Nintendo's nostalgia machine will eventually break down completely. The very same people they depend upon to buy the same recycled ideas year after year aren't going to be around to support them forever, and the facts are everywhere to support this notion.

I agree with this.  Nintendo has been riding the exact same handful of franchises for 30+ years.  It's almost embarrassing.  There's only so many times you can repackage Mario or Zelda before it gets tired... and I think most people have hit that point.

SunGodPortal

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2015, 03:31:31 pm »
Quote
This is a potential problem with any purchase, isn't it?  I mean if you're saying that reviews can't be trusted....

How can I know whether or not <insert food product or restaurant here> will be any good until I buy it for myself and find out?
Or <insert movie here>?
Or <insert soap here>?
Or <insert anything you purchase here>?

But I'm not expected to enjoy soap, food products, movies or restaurants for 50+ hours and in the majority of cases said things are cheaper than video games. At least with a car you are allowed to look under the hood, take it for a test drive, etc... That's how you protect yourself from a bad investment. Taking down certain types of videos on youtube takes away some of that protection and for no benefit that I can see.

I don't see a perfect solution for movies though. At the same time, most movies are cheap and disposable so taking a loss in this case is not such a big deal. A lot of music is cheap too, but with that specific case and me specifically it's partly a matter of principal. I don't want to waste my money but just as important is the fact that I don't think people should be paid to make shitty music. A person also listens to an album or song way more than they would a movie so I'm not sure they compare too well anyway.

Quote
Nintendo's nostalgia machine will eventually break down completely. The very same people they depend upon to buy the same recycled ideas year after year aren't going to be around to support them forever, and the facts are everywhere to support this notion. This blatant action to shit on the fanbase is a prime example of how desperate they really are.

I totally agree with this. Nintendo has become "the sad old hat".
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Disch

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2015, 04:00:23 pm »
Some games have trial versions.

You can also rent games -- or at least you could... is that still a thing these days?

I don't know.  You can rationalize your actions all day if you want.  But at the end of the day you're violating IP laws.  Whether or not you feel you're justified to do so means little outside of dealing with your own personal conscious.


Don't get me wrong.  I pirate shit all the time.  I don't have a problem with it.  The only real difference between us is I don't feel the need to rationalize it.  I don't like fooling myself.

Daria

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2015, 04:43:29 pm »
My point is that they gain nothing from this.

They gain exposure. You take down the popular speed runs so when potential viewers search for "new Mario levels" they pull up a ton of Mario Maker videos instead of ROM Hacks.

With that said - total dick move Nintendo.

MarkGrass

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2015, 04:53:39 pm »
Don't get me wrong.  I pirate shit all the time.  I don't have a problem with it.  The only real difference between us is I don't feel the need to rationalize it.  I don't like fooling myself.

Yup, I feel the same.

Gemini and myself recently chatted briefly about how discovering emulation changed our lives, way back when. In one instant, one may gain access to video games that they couldn't have previously enjoyed. Whether it be poverty and the inability to purchase, outdated or out of print systems and consoles, regional hindrance and anything else unforeseen, ROM sets can really open doors for many people, creatively speaking.

That feel for me were several of the NES Mega Man games that I had only dreamed about as a child. I would later go on to purchase the entire collection, but before that, I hacked video games as means of a creative outlet in order to stay busy so that I could ditch drug and alcohol abuse. I probably couldn't have accomplished that if it weren't for piracy.

That said, I wouldn't just start downloading movies, music and games for the sake of having them for my pleasure. There's a very fine line between honest intentions and just flat-out stealing.

SunGodPortal

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2015, 05:33:54 pm »
Quote
Some games have trial versions.

You can also rent games -- or at least you could... is that still a thing these days?

I don't know.  You can rationalize your actions all day if you want.  But at the end of the day you're violating IP laws.  Whether or not you feel you're justified to do so means little outside of dealing with your own personal conscious.


Don't get me wrong.  I pirate shit all the time.  I don't have a problem with it.  The only real difference between us is I don't feel the need to rationalize it.  I don't like fooling myself.

I don't have a problem with being a pirate. I'm not in denial about it. I'm not denying that there may be some technical reasons why speedrun videos might violate IP laws either. But I'm saying I don't give a shit about that and I think that taking down these videos does more harm than good because the videos themselves do more good than harm.
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Disch

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Re: Nintendo vs Youtube. Round 3. This time it might involve ROM hacks.
« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2015, 06:31:34 pm »
taking down these videos does more harm than good because the videos themselves do more good than harm.

The videos do more good... for who.... Nintendo?  How do they at all benefit from them?