News: 11 March 2016 - Forum Rules
Current Moderators - DarkSol, KingMike, MathOnNapkins, Azkadellia, Danke

Author Topic: Why I hate OoT  (Read 16232 times)

Disch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2611
  • NES Junkie
    • View Profile
Re: Why I hate OoT
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2015, 02:04:11 am »
Exactly @ SGP.

Regarding SM, the only time I remember getting stuck is right before Deep Norfair -- I didn't realize the Gravity Suit gave you immunity to the lava (acid?) and you had to go through it to get to the entrance.  But by then I knew I had to find my way to Ridley, and he was marked on the map so it was just a matter of traversing the edge until I found it.

SM really was a masterpiece.  One of the best games for the SNES.

dougeff

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 359
    • View Profile
Re: Why I hate OoT
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2015, 02:08:57 am »
Quote
Simon's Quest

Oh. Now THAT was the most disappointing Castlevania to me. Much worse than the 2 PS2 games.
nesdoug.com -- blog/tutorial on programming for the NES

Disch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2611
  • NES Junkie
    • View Profile
Re: Why I hate OoT
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2015, 02:09:47 am »
I really liked what CV2 tried to do, but man did it botch it big time.  Yeah that game is a total stinker.

dougeff

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 359
    • View Profile
Re: Why I hate OoT
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2015, 02:12:45 am »
Off subject, I owned Catlevania 1 (NES) since the 80s, and I only just beat Dracula like last year.
nesdoug.com -- blog/tutorial on programming for the NES

SunGodPortal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2908
  • 2 + 2 = 5
    • View Profile
Re: Why I hate OoT
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2015, 02:34:12 am »
Quote
SM really was a masterpiece.  One of the best games for the SNES.

Agreed.

Quote
Oh. Now THAT was the most disappointing Castlevania to me. Much worse than the 2 PS2 games.

Agreed. I wasn't as disappointed about CV2 though because I hadn't just come off the highs of LoD. I had put off playing the 3D Castlevanias for a while because for a long time I just couldn't stand 3D games (because a lot of the early ones had disgusting graphics) so when I finally gave the N64 games a chance it was like a whole new world had opened up to me. Wanting more, I then got Curse of Darkness and I fealt the door slamming in my face...

Quote
I really liked what CV2 tried to do, but man did it botch it big time.  Yeah that game is a total stinker.

Yeah. Any game that can't be beaten without a guide is unfair.

Joint reply to Disch and dougeff: I think they were really going somewhere with that one but it's like they stopped before they got there. Wasted potential.

Quote
Off subject, I owned Catlevania 1 (NES) since the 80s, and I only just beat Dracula like last year.

I owned it probably just as long and never beat it until a couple of years ago when I finally said screw it and used Game Genie codes. Some of those later levels are just painful.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 02:41:15 am by SunGodPortal »
War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength.

KaioShin

  • RHDN Patreon Supporter!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5697
    • View Profile
    • The Romhacking Aerie
Re: Why I hate OoT
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2015, 02:37:56 am »
Oh wow, a game that is 15 years younger is more refined and strictly better than the whole genre's prototype that made said game even possible in the first place. Glad someone noticed.
All my posts are merely personal opinions and not statements of fact, even if they are not explicitly prefixed by "In my opinion", "IMO", "I believe", or similar modifiers. By reading this disclaimer you agree to reply in spirit of these conditions.

SunGodPortal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2908
  • 2 + 2 = 5
    • View Profile
Re: Why I hate OoT
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2015, 02:43:08 am »
Quote
Oh wow, a game that is 15 years younger is more refined and strictly better than the whole genre's prototype that made said game even possible in the first place. Glad someone noticed.

Could you please elaborate, KaioShin?
War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength.

KaioShin

  • RHDN Patreon Supporter!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5697
    • View Profile
    • The Romhacking Aerie
Re: Why I hate OoT
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2015, 02:53:33 am »
Could you please elaborate, KaioShin?

He said Dark Souls is better in every way and he is correct. But how is that surprising? OoT is the prototype that made 3rd Person Action Adventures a thing in the first place. Before that no one knew how to actually make them work. Thanks to OoT it became the genre of the 3D generation. And Dark Souls is the pinnacle of 15 years of evolution in that genre now. Using DS to shit on OoT is like shitting on a Model T Ford because your new car is sexier, more secure and faster.
All my posts are merely personal opinions and not statements of fact, even if they are not explicitly prefixed by "In my opinion", "IMO", "I believe", or similar modifiers. By reading this disclaimer you agree to reply in spirit of these conditions.

Bregalad

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2552
    • View Profile
Re: Why I hate OoT
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2015, 08:17:53 am »
I never played Ocarina of Time nor any Zelda game more recent than "A Link to the Past", however I cannot count how many times people praised that game and said that it is a must play or the best game ever, and I answered that I could not play it 'case I have no N64 and I don't like this system, period, not even enough to simulate it on my PC.

So it's interesting that Ocarina of Time also gets haters, but after all this is understandable, everyone has it's tastes. Personally I hate the original Metroid (NES) with passion, but it seems almost everyone else adore this game for a reason I can't understand, I can understand they liked the sequels but not the original.

Disch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2611
  • NES Junkie
    • View Profile
Re: Why I hate OoT
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2015, 10:43:55 am »
Using DS to shit on OoT is like shitting on a Model T Ford because your new car is sexier, more secure and faster.

I never really did that.  I was shitting on OoT on its own merits by comparing it only to previous Zelda games.

I disliked OoT since the first time I played it -- long before DaS came out.

I'll agree that OoT helped define the genre and without it DaS might not have existed, but it's still a shitty game.  And in a lot of ways made the Zelda series fall into a downward spiral.

Personally I hate the original Metroid (NES) with passion, but it seems almost everyone else adore this game for a reason I can't understand, I can understand they liked the sequels but not the original.

I agree.  Metroid 1 was hot garbage.  I wouldn't say I "hate" it, but it certainly wasn't a good game.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 10:55:33 am by Disch »

MisterJones

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1572
  • :D
    • View Profile
Re: Why I hate OoT
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2015, 10:52:39 am »
Meh.  I gave 5 mins to that video.  If you can't grab my attention in that time, you've failed.

Talk about a ridiculously short attention span.


Mechanically, Souls game definitely borrow a lot of OoT mechanics, the most obvious for me was the target lock on. Souls, I have read, structurally borrows from much older games however, mostly Japanese CRPGs. Hydlide and others.

I was never so big on any of the 3d Zeldas (though honestly I appreciate Majoras Mask structure better than the regular rescue zelda by beating a series of dungeons format), but I have got to admit that back then, there was barely anything like it. It had really strong production values, one of the first epic tales for the N64, a grand score, plenty of cinematic shots (I still appreciate the intro with a first person view of navi flying to link), a "grand" overworld to explore. Very few games back then had all of those in a single package. Can you name other N64 games that were similar in approach to OoT?

That is not to say you are demanded to like it (I was never hooked, and I dont think I will ever be), but to deny its relevance would require to blindfold yourself.
_-|-_

Disch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2611
  • NES Junkie
    • View Profile
Re: Why I hate OoT
« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2015, 11:09:21 am »
Talk about a ridiculously short attention span.

It's less about me having a short attention span and more about having high standards when it comes to entertainment.  If you are going to entertain me, entertain me.  Listening to a monotone voice read a prepared speech is not entertaining... it's boring.  It feels like work.  It's not worth my time.

I could get through it if I really wanted to -- but why make myself suffer through it?

And it's not like my expectations are unreasonable.   Just talk like a human being and not like a robot.  That's enough to keep me engaged.


Quote
Can you name other N64 games that were similar in approach to OoT?

N64?  No, I couldn't do that.  That system was garbage.

But if you compare N64 games only to other N64 games you're only getting part of the picture.  You should compare them to other games released around the same time, regardless of the system they run on.

Other successful games (besides OoT) released in 1998 include:

- StarCraft
- Metal Gear Solid
- Fallout 2
- Half Life
- Grim Fandango
- Suikoden 2


Take your pick of any of those games.  I'd argue that they're all just as immersive as OoT, and have all aged much, much better.

Quote
That is not to say you are demanded to like it (I was never hooked, and I dont think I will ever be), but to deny its relevance would require to blindfold yourself.

I won't deny it's relevance for helping to establish the 3D adventure genre.  Its place in history is certainly important.  I'm just saying it's a shitty game.  It's not fun.

It feels more like a tech demo, or an experiment of how to transform Zelda to 3D than it does a playable game -- and IMO it's a failed experiment, and moved the series away from what made it fun.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 11:15:02 am by Disch »

KaioShin

  • RHDN Patreon Supporter!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5697
    • View Profile
    • The Romhacking Aerie
Re: Why I hate OoT
« Reply #32 on: September 09, 2015, 11:15:45 am »
I think the success of the 3DS Remake proves that it's not just a child of its time but still manages to entertain a ton of people. I watch my 8 year old nephew play it for the first time now that he can read and he certainly seems to enjoy it as much as any other game or as much as I enjoyed any game in 1998. From those you listed, the only one that can be remotely compared is MGS, the rest are completely different genres and/or 2D, that's apples and oranges.

So ok, you don't like it. \thread.

All my posts are merely personal opinions and not statements of fact, even if they are not explicitly prefixed by "In my opinion", "IMO", "I believe", or similar modifiers. By reading this disclaimer you agree to reply in spirit of these conditions.

Disch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2611
  • NES Junkie
    • View Profile
Re: Why I hate OoT
« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2015, 11:22:16 am »
I think the success of the 3DS Remake proves that it's not just a child of its time but still manages to entertain a ton of people.

That or people have nostalgia goggles on.

Side note:  the success of Honey Boo Boo proves that the masses are slack jawed idiots.

Quote
I watch my 8 year old nephew play it for the first time now that he can read and he certainly seems to enjoy it as much as any other game or as much as I enjoyed any game in 1998.

8 year olds will like any video game you put in front of them.  I liked Oregon Trail when I was 8.

Quote
From those you listed, the only one that can be remotely compared is MGS, the rest are completely different genres and/or 2D, that's apples and oranges.

Granted none of them are adventure games, but MisterJones was talking about "epic tales" and immersive environments in his post.  The games I listed were all pretty epic and immersive in their own right.

SunGodPortal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2908
  • 2 + 2 = 5
    • View Profile
Re: Why I hate OoT
« Reply #34 on: September 09, 2015, 03:31:53 pm »
Quote
Can you name other N64 games that were similar in approach to OoT?

Best 3D action-adventure game for the N64 was Castlevania: Legacy of Darkness. Play it if you have not already. I believe it to be very sadly underratted and overlooked because of how disappointed people were with Castlevania "64". It had lots of action-platforming, fun bosses, puzzles, the levels were huge and there were four characters to play (each having a few unique levels apiece and one having a game that was structured completely different ie: no levels).

I don't remember if Castlevania 64 did or not but I know LoD had a "lock on" function.

Many times when I have tried to find a similar game, people have recommended Dark Souls but unfortunately I do no currently own any systems that would allow me to play said series. There's that anyway...
War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength.

Disch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2611
  • NES Junkie
    • View Profile
Re: Why I hate OoT
« Reply #35 on: September 09, 2015, 03:34:59 pm »
Many times when I have tried to find a similar game, people have recommended Dark Souls but unfortunately I do no currently own any systems that would allow me to play said series. There's that anyway...

You don't have a PC?

The PC version of Dark Souls was on sale for like $8 not too long ago.  You probably won't find it that cheap anymore, but you can still find it.  Google "Dark Souls Prepare to Die edition".

FWIW, play it with a controller (360 or similar preferred).  Trying to keyboard+mouse it is balls bogus, the game really is designed for a controller.


EDIT:

$20 on Steam right now:

http://store.steampowered.com/app/211420/

(has fun little short videos to watch, too!  ^^)



EDIT 2:

Portion of a review for Dark Souls.  Sums it up quite nicely:

Quote
All in all, I was more than ready to hate this game and everything about it.

And then I actually PLAYED the game.

And it's amazing.

Let's ignore the setting for a minute, because it's awesome on its own. Let's ignore the depth of the lore, and the subtlety behind it, for the same reasons. Let's look at the combat, and the exploration, and the GAMEPLAY of the game. I have never seen a game so dedicated to making it YOUR FAULT when you die. It's not that hard to take about ten extra seconds and think it out before charging in, and if you do that, you instantly double your chances of survival. Trying out a weapon and learning its quirks BEFORE fighting the enemy is absolutely vital, so that you know how to time your hits. The attacks the enemies use are, for the most part, very easy to read if you just WAIT a minute and figure it out. It's not hard to figure out which enemies are tough enough that you should just leave them alone for a while, and if you attacked them, it's on your head. Once you understand the basic mechanics, the game becomes downright refreshing.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 03:54:53 pm by Disch »

PKstarship

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 44
    • View Profile
Re: Why I hate OoT
« Reply #36 on: September 09, 2015, 03:35:20 pm »
I saw this video yesterday, and thought it might apply here.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=Xf4KbsNWRV0

Chpexo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 731
    • View Profile
.
« Reply #37 on: September 09, 2015, 04:59:23 pm »
.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 12:34:33 pm by Chpexo »

Disch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2611
  • NES Junkie
    • View Profile
Re: Why I hate OoT
« Reply #38 on: September 09, 2015, 05:45:53 pm »
@Chpexo:

Yeah you're right.  OoT certainly isn't the worst game, and the transition to 3D could have been a lot worse.

EDIT:
Quote
Saying Nintendo had no idea how to make 3D work is blasphemous

I didn't really say that.  Mario 64 was pretty good (again, except for the retarded controller), and even Star Fox was pretty awesome when it came out (though it hasn't aged particularly well).

As far as a 3D engine goes, the OoT engine isn't bad.  It's just that the game design fought with it rather than complimenting it.  It's like the sequelitis guy said... 3D changes everything -- but they didn't change anything.  It still plays largely like LttP, only the 3D element makes it much clunkier and harder to maneuver.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 05:53:12 pm by Disch »

Nightcrawler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5708
    • View Profile
    • Nightcrawler's Translation Corporation
Re: Why I hate OoT
« Reply #39 on: September 09, 2015, 06:24:14 pm »
I don't care much for Ocarina of Time either. I played through to the beginning of the Adult Link/Dark World, and quit. I happen to like the fact that it had additional story compared to previous games though. The gameplay in general was too clunky for me. It really wasn't that fun compared to 2D zelda's. It was too slow. There was also way too much back tracking. The areas were very large, but didn't actually contain much, which made back tracking even more painful.  There was also too much focus on finding those gold beetles and other fetch-like questing. I agree there was too much waiting around with the day/night cycle too. It turned me off to playing any further 3D Zelda games. I have no idea if subsequent games improved upon these things or not. I thought about giving Twilight Princess a try, but never did yet.
TransCorp - Over 20 years of community dedication.
Dual Orb 2, Wozz, Emerald Dragon, Tenshi No Uta, Glory of Heracles IV SFC/SNES Translations