[Tharthan]

OP provided an utterly biased and unfair representation, as seemingly hinted at by Disch

Would you like to explain how I did that so that I can avoid doing so in the future?

My original post was only meant to be my opinion. The poll was what was supposed to be neutral.

I thought I made that clear in the original post itself. Do I seriously have to put disclaimers everywhere I go just because people can't take into account that I am just be expressing my own personal opinion?

If so, then let me make this one as clear as day:

Nothing that I say on a subjective topic is intended as anything more than my opinion unless I blatantly say otherwise. I am just some guy on the Web, like the rest of you. My opinions do not matter and don't have any real influence on anything at all in the slightest. If you choose to ignore this disclaimer, then don't blame me for your own misinterpretations of my character in the future.

but I reckon that I get the gist of the concept enough to be able to weigh in without taking his view into consideration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D5tkAUNFa4

How's about you assume good faith in your fellow person rather than assume everyone is out to be mean and misrepresent things, huh?

I don't want to just move a character around and grind while hitting story elements.

I agree. That is one of the dumb things about a lot of Eastern RPGs.

So, I like my RPGs to be rooted in the tabletop tradition

I personally am not all that interested in keeping up D&D tradition.

I've DMed (or "GMed" as one particular DM in a campaign I was in insisted we call him) several times before, and it's a neat way of storytelling. Furthermore, the openness of it all is vastly superior to the linear methods of most Eastern RPGs.

However...

Just like D&D itself is, open worlds are only as open as their creator allows them to be. Some DMs, although perfectly accepting of more or less all player choices, will choose to reward choices that they like and severely punish ones that they don't.

And I'm not talking about stupid choices either. I'm talking about legitimate choices that, in reality, would be just as functional as other choices in getting a job done.

Now, with that said, when it comes to western RPGs, one exception to this that I can think of off of the top of my head that doesn't do this really is Fallout. That series allows you to pick the choices that you wish, and gives choices reasonable consequences; not ones based in the developer's personal opinions.

JRPGs are (or were, it's been a very long time since I've played one) generally a long movie or novel for lack of a better word,  where either you move the protagonist around to progress the story... or you're a somewhat silent observer to the events, aka "a silent protagonist".

Some of my favourite protagonists in RPGs have been silent protagonists, because I could see them as "silent protagonists" in real life (and, in fact, some later games in some series have made the characters canonically silent). You had ought to remember that some people act fairly close to the silent protagonist type in real life. 

Generally, having a silent protagonist is better than the former example type that you give where the player has no input whatsoever, because (like open worlds, though to a much smaller extent) a silent protagonist still allows a player to pretend that they are the character, to a point.

The problem is that I absolutely abhor generic art. I abhor generic anime art, and I abhor generic "realistic" art.

Fair enough. I agree with you.

but the effeminate male heroes and skinemax female ones kill it for me

Same here.

[M-Tee]

On the silent protagonist, there was interesting discussion on here some months back regarding them.

Also, there are games that I thoroughly enjoy that are essentially movies or novels in which the gameplay merely progresses the story. Shenmue is the strongest example that comes to mind. I find that that game's unique setting is what drew me to it in the first place, and that it's also an example of a "realistic" art style which I've enjoyed.

I just don't find the JRPG combat system to be engaging enough to warrant it. In fact, I find that it takes me out of the story more than anything. However, there have been some translated famicom RPGs showing up lately here that I want to take a stab at. Sometime in the distant future when I have free time and an everdrive, I'll give em a shot.

[swinezig]

Would you like to explain how I did that so that I can avoid doing so in the future?

My original post was only meant to be my opinion. The poll was what was supposed to be neutral.

I thought I made that clear in the original post itself. Do I seriously have to put disclaimers everywhere I go just because people can't take into account that I am just be expressing my own personal opinion?

If so, then let me make this one as clear as day:

Nothing that I say on a subjective topic is intended as anything more than my opinion unless I blatantly say otherwise. I am just some guy on the Web, like the rest of you. My opinions do not matter and don't have any real influence on anything at all in the slightest. If you choose to ignore this disclaimer, then don't blame me for your own misinterpretations of my character in the future.

Let me just answer you with this picture to show you the exact problem with your post.
According to your logic, you see:

Eastern RPGs:


Western RPGs:

[Isao Kronos]

yes yes we know tharthan has a case of hoof in mouth disease apparently

In any case, I need to play Witcher 2 the same day I play Dragon's Dogma and see which one I like more. Right now I'm leaning towards Dragon's Dogma but I haven't touched Witcher 2 in a while.

[Tharthan]

Let me just answer you with this picture to show you the exact problem with your post.
According to your logic, you see:

Eastern RPGs:


Western RPGs:

I was speaking in extremely general terms.

But

Spoiler:

Aerith dying

is the only real moment in

Spoiler:

Final Fantasy VII

that really could be considered

Spoiler:

super serious

as far as I can remember.

And I'm not sure what the Western RPG example is, but nevertheless it looks fairly influenced by Eastern RPG style, so...?

P.S. Please let me know what that Western RPG is because it looks pretty neat.

But, yes, my listed differences between Eastern RPGs and Western RPGs are not all encompassing in the slightest. They are just extremely generalised analyses based on my experiences with Western RPGs and Eastern RPGs.

I also must confess that I have not played very many Western RPGs in my lifetime due to not enjoying them much, so I don't know fully the other side of the coin.

yes yes we know tharthan has a case of hoof in mouth disease apparently

I fully admit to this.

[swinezig]

It's Sudeki, the British ARPG.

[Tharthan]

It's Sudeki, the British ARPG.

Thanks! I'll have to check it out one of these days.

[SunGodPortal]

Until this Sudeki game was pointed out (sounds like a Japanese title to me) I personally couldn't think of another example like it. If things have changed I suspect that it was in recent years, which may be why I didn't notice. The PS2 is the most recent system I own. There may be some western RPGs that have that eastern feel, but still, I don't think the comparison/generalization is unwarranted. When I think of a western RPG, someting like Dungeons & Dragons is always going to come to mind because I just have not seen enough evidence to the contrary.

Also, for example, if you go to gamefaqs.com and choose a system, then role-playing there are sub-categories such as "japanese-style" and "western-style". So there's that... 

[swinezig]

I could point out that JRPGs are basically "Wizardry + Ultima + Japs gonna Jap" and name every label every "JRPG" produced using that formula (Phantasy Star, for example) as "WRPGs with Eastern feel".

But I'd rather not start an argument.

[Tharthan]

I could point out that JRPGs are basically "Wizardry + Ultima + Japs gonna Jap" and name every label every "JRPG" produced using that formula (Phantasy Star, for example) as "WRPGs with Eastern feel".

But I'd rather not start an argument.

Ah, but you forget:

Modern Western RPGs are not exactly the same as they once were.

It's sort of like saying:

"Well North American English speaking countries descend from England, and since they descend from England, their methods of speaking English are inferior to the way English is spoken in England."

When, in reality, there has actually been more evidence showing that various North American English dialects are closer to many dialects of English spoken during the time that they were settled in.

Therefore, on a similar note:

Western RPGs aren't the same Western RPGs of the past, and they are no more entitled to the 'RPG" name than Eastern RPGs are.

So, Western RPGs and Easter RPGs do have a common ancestor, but neither is more superior than the other.

[swinezig]

Ah, but you forget:

Modern Western RPGs are not exactly the same as they once were.

It's sort of like saying:

"Well North American English speaking countries descend from England, and since they descend from England, their methods of speaking English are inferior to the way English is spoken in England."

When, in reality, there has actually been more evidence showing that various North American English dialects are closer to many dialects of English spoken during the time that they were settled in.

Therefore, on a similar note:

Western RPGs aren't the same Western RPGs of the past, and they are no more entitled to the 'RPG" name than Eastern RPGs are.

So, Western RPGs and Easter RPGs do have a common ancestor, but neither is more superior than the other.

Modern AAA WRPGs are practically JRPGs (focus on characters and linear storyline and limited freedom) with action combat.
Either that or cheap sandboxes with tons of good ideas which require some dedicated modding to realize them on a decent level.

I get the feeling we'll never determine the right descriptions of both genres.

[KaioShin]

I get the feeling we'll never determine the right descriptions of both genres.

WRPG: Crude, unpolished diamonds
JRPG: Shitburger with urine filling

=============

But joking aside, the JRPG genre is already decomposing. Final Fantasy and Xenoblade are the last big budget series left. Even Persona 5 is a good 5 years behind current tech and it's not even out yet. Everything else becomes more and more cheap. And that is what leads to the moe blob weeaboo pandering harem JRPG style that becomes more and more dominant now. Look at the JRPGs released for the Vita in the last 24 months. It'll make you cry and weep in shame of ever liking the genre. I'm not saying JRPGs of the past were like this. But what is happening right NOW is that the genre is on a steep decline into oblivion.

[Spooniest]

moe blob weeaboo pandering harem JRPG style that becomes more and more dominant now

Thanks, FF7!

But yeah, idk who wants to play these games you describe but whoever they are, they don't sound like people I want to be around.

I blame the general breakdown of the social element in gaming. Before gamefaqs et al, you had to talk to your friends to figure out where WarMech was. Now you can just coast through the game reading a walk through, you don't talk to your friends about them, period.

[flynninfinite]

Western RPGs?
Is this supposed to be a joke? 

[Duke2go]

There have been a LOT of good points raised, so I'm not going to do a lot of quoting, just referencing.

I agree that a LOT of modern games in general have begun to show an over-abundance of CGI T&A. While we rarely see fully nude characters, or events with such depictions (although God of War is certainly full of nudity, but still a fun game. Although not an rpg, I used it as an example), "hints of nudity" abound. When I was a young boy, and teenager, I enjoyed such displays because I was full of hormones (I particularly remember the scene of Marion in Double Dragon II's opening being showing a very BUSTY Marion). I have started as I've gotten older to find these depictions less "sexy" and more comical, probably because I've gotten old enough to actually HAVE sex haha (and for real, there are WAY better depictions of naked women to be found on the internet that aren't animated haha  ) I will say though that Lulu in FFX, while I HATED THAT GAME, I remember finding particularly over-the-top, but remained sexy IMO.

As for specific genres of RPG, I have always found Eastern Rpgs (like Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest) to be more to my liking. I remember being completely blown away by Dragon Quest 8 when I first played it because it looked like an Akira Toriyama cartoon, and was just GORGEOUS!! Yes, there is often an annoying "grinding" aspect to these stories, and sometimes the plots make very little sense, but the overall design has been more to my liking. I LIKE anime, and I have since I was much younger. I do tend to like characters who are done in a "good" anime style, like DQ series, since "mediocre" anime was discussed earlier and I agree that there are some mediocre anime depictions of characters.

While I tend to stay away from MMORPGs, I did like the dot Hack series, which basically "emulated" the online RPG experience. I particularly remember feeling genuine affection for the female character BlackRose (dark rose, I forget?). For some reason, the anime style female characters always seem to get more affection from me (Rydia from FFIV is another example of this). Celes Chere from FFVI was another good example because of how her scenarios were written. I have genuinely shed a tear on numerous playthroughs of FFVI during the Opera House mission, and she remains my favorite character from that game, along with Locke. This favor was directly related to how the creators really fleshed out the story of those 2 characters, especially how Celes becomes the "main" character upon entering the World of Ruin. I also felt that the treatment of Celes, like basically having the ability to either heal Cid or let him die, really added a lot of depth to her as an individual character also, something Final Fantasy VI did well overall, IMO at least.

For me, after reading through my response, I think the enjoyment factor for me is more related to how good the story and character development within the game is. A game with little story development, or character development, has typically resulted in a bad experience for me. Although games with good stories, but bad gameplay mechanics, have also tended to be bad. If a developer can find a good balance between the two aspects, I have tended to like the game much more. I won't necessarily avoid a game because it as "eastern" or "western" game, and I do tend to read reviews from others in my decisions now since these reviews are much easier to obtain than they were in my youth. Very interesting topic. Look forward to reading more.

[Tharthan]

@Duke2go Thank you for your very insightful response.

[Duke2go]

@Duke2go Thank you for your very insightful response.

Thank you. Ironically, I forgot to mention that my own research of the development of Final Fantasy 1 for the NES turned up information that the developers incorporated aspects of Western D&D into development, like weaknesses to fire and elemental weapons, monsters, etc., into their game, which hadn't been done unto that point IIRC in a Japanese RPG. I thought this was a neat video game trivia fact that I would share 

[Piotyr]

I tend to like games from every country, be it the crude unpolished German Gothic series, the super Japanese and deep (If not a little ridiculous) Shin megami tensei or the compellingly deep and tactical Baldurs gate series (also if you think western rpgs are super serious and gritty, may I point out that one of the most popular characters in baldurs gate has a hamster named boo who he thinks is a giant miniature space hamster)

In the end I personally hate generalization because you can find things to like from any country if you look hard enough, reminds me of the "Brown and gray" argument when it comes to western games when one of the most popular games from japan recently "Dark souls" is so brown and gray its beautiful.

[MisterJones]

Thanks, FF7!

But yeah, idk who wants to play these games you describe but whoever they are, they don't sound like people I want to be around.

I blame the general breakdown of the social element in gaming. Before gamefaqs et al, you had to talk to your friends to figure out where WarMech was. Now you can just coast through the game reading a walk through, you don't talk to your friends about them, period.

say that to dark souls and prrtty much all from soft games using the same souls formula. And minecraft. There are inmense communities discussing the games and secret areas and stuff and shit

[Piotyr]

I think rather than just naming names of games that are great from each genre I would go into what is good about each.

Western RPGs tend to have greater focus on choice and character customization, the main character is usually you in game form so the character building comes from other people in the world, it is also more prone to open world gameplay be it total open like skyrim or semi open like baldurs gate.

Eastern rpgs tend to play out more like movies or novels where we follow a main character (Sometimes silent to put you in his shoes but usually with no real choice in things) and watch a story unfold with a more focused narrative, you usually will go from point a to b to c with a few side quests here and there unlike a western rpg where you usually go from point a to that place that looks shiny over there to I wonder whats over there to oh yeah I have a plot to follow b.

While there are many exceptions to these rules of thumb it is the basic way things tend to go, you have side quests in eastern rpgs and in western rpgs sometimes you play a named protagonist (usually you craft him as you like) but in the end these are just generalizations that can be applied to the genre as a whole without causing many uproars. I do not believe that plots in western rpgs are more serious nor do I believe eastern rpgs are all anime love and friendship funtime, these are poor generalizations because I can point to big names on either side that truly go against this.