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Author Topic: Final Fantasy IV Namingway Edition (updated to Version 1.98a)  (Read 165169 times)

Chicken Knife

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Namingway Edition (updated to Version 1.88)
« Reply #520 on: January 05, 2019, 10:12:42 pm »
Sounds good. I certainly wouldn't expect you to agree with all of my suggestions. Many are a matter of taste.

With my points on capitalization or grammar, I may or may not be correct in every instance, but I think it's important to determine what is objectively correct in those cases.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 10:20:52 pm by Chicken Knife »

vivify93

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Namingway Edition (updated to Version 1.88)
« Reply #521 on: January 06, 2019, 12:41:14 am »
I'm reading over this now myself, and I wanted to let you know the capitalization on Crystal is done in the remake script. This was a piece of consistency I added at some point. Also, I know Rodimus has done an amazing job of making this his own, but I would have appreciated if this feedback were also directed to me since I believe FFIV: Namingway Edition is, by this point, a hybrid of Rodimus' work and mine.

I'll look this over as well. Thank you for the feedback. :)

Edit - I'll start my responses here, to things I know I've done.

"As far as my general issues, the first thing I want to mention is that it looks like you've opted to remove the space occuring after commas and periods in order to save on data. I've toyed with similar choices in my own recent script work. Honestly, I would add the conventional space."

That will not work without doubling the space of the ROM data. Even Kaoru Moriyama employed a similar trick--she removed the space after the colon for speaker names. I just took it further by following AWJ, SOM2Freak, and Alex Jackson's approach to their FFIII NES translation.


"Here's an extremely minor point, but I always get a little thrown off by your capitalization of OK. Now, I don't find it nearly as disturbing as when people spell it as 'okay', but a simple ok usually flows best IMO."
This is my personal flair for writing. I find it the opposite--"ok" looks unprofessional unless it's "okay" or "OK". It's up to Rodimus if he'd like to change this, of course. It's all OK with me.  ;)


Semicolons aren't an option on the FFIV SNES script.


His Majesty is a proper title, it needs capitalization. The remake script does this, as do real royal titles.


I really like your take on the "distrust" line. I struggled a lot with that one. Thank you.


Sir Cecil is another title. Sir is replacing "Mr." here; we always capitalize the M of Mr., Miss, Ms., and Mrs. You wouldn't spell it "dr. Shannen".


KO is the official term of getting incapacitated in battle. The Deathbringer's "KO'd!" message was in FFIV Advance, for what that's worth. Likely in FFIV:CC too.


Capitalizing Moon was on me, not Rodimus. Please don't blame him for it


"Hyphons", as you called them (It's hyphen), are used for a full stop in lieu of an em dash. I thought it looked nicer than two dashes. For example, the Sylph's line is "Oh! Don't--" because her voice cuts off before Cecil smacks Yang with the frying pan.


Kain: If that happens again, please, kill me. (too choppy with the two commas)
To:
Kain: Please kill me if that happens again.

This line in particular is a bad suggestion, IMO. He's interjecting the "please" as a pleading. Your suggestion makes it sound far too casual.


The "Scottish-ish dialect" of the ancient weapons' bosses was just supposed to be ancient-sounding... I didn't think it'd sound any particular way. :\ Maybe it's time to change it to Elizabethan English.


"(i'm not really into expressions that date this translation to the nineties)"... you do know when FFIV came out, right? :p


Regardless of my nitpicks of your nitpicks, I do like a lot of your suggestions, and I've written them down to incorporate in Project II as well.  ;D
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 01:11:56 pm by vivify93 »
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Chicken Knife

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Namingway Edition (updated to Version 1.88)
« Reply #522 on: January 06, 2019, 08:13:35 am »
@ Vivify93

Ha! Forgive me for not paying you the respect you deserve in the directing of my tireless nitpicking. I will gladly commit my next playthrough of FF4 to Project II so you can have your turn with the brunt of further feedback. I've read through the differences at one point but I'm curious to experience them directly.

But in the meantime, I'm grateful for your feedback of mine. In spite of the inevitable ego bruising for all parties involved, I think this discussion really is for the greater good.

Now some responses:

"The consistent capitalization of crystal was done in the remake". Are we talking GBA or DS? In either case, I think the tradition of things is neither here nor there since as I pointed out, bad capitalization practices have been rampant in video game translations since the beginning. I may not have indicated in my text but there were actually a few instances of crystal or crystals used generally that were not capitalized--to my obvious satisfaction. In a situation like the end game when Golbez passes you the item specifically called "Crystal", there I could see the capitalization. But whenever they are referred to generally, I simply can't see a strong argument.

Regarding spaces after punctuation marks, I get it. When I started sampling comparisons to the Japanese script on the Legends of Localization site, it became apparent how much reduction already had to occur for the English text which is obviously far less dense than the Japanese. If we had gotten our version of the game localized years after the Japanese release as was the norm by that point, I'm sure we would have been given an expanded memory size to begin with but alas we are under the consequences of a timely release date. Have any attempts been made at rom expansion? I think it would serve this game's script extremely well if someone were to take it on.

Ha, I'm not going to argue any further about ok/OK. That was just me being the pain in the ass that I am.  ;D

Semicolons not a part of the FFIV Script? *gasp* I... adore the elegant use of the semicolon. I hope another tile could be laid on the altar of sacrifice.

I think my English teacher friend is correct that His Majesty is or is not capitalized based on the word it would normally replace (whether a king's name or simply the word king) but I did find my research and my friend's explanation a little inconsistent. I wasn't sure why it would change when addressing "His Majesty" in the first person or talking about "his majesty" in the third person. However, his view did match up to my own intuition in the matter--take that as you will.

It looks like you're right on the capitalization of "Sir". I'm reading further into it and it seems that it should be consistently capitalized whenever used as an honorific (ie Sir Cecil)

For KO, I still disagree, and I don't think we should be considering FFIV Advance as the definitive standard. Nintendo was still censoring in those days, albeit less.

For moon, thank you for owning up to that one. There's actually a very strange and fascinating tradition for the word, which serves as a general and a specific name simultaneously. The English language tradition of not capitalizing when it occurs as a formal name really does defy logic. Neverthless, I don't think that logic should supersede what has been normalized in virtually all English text.

You got me on "hyphons". Any intelligent nitpicker would take better care to revise their own nitpicks.  ;D  In my defense, I believe you will find other examples where I spelled it correctly.

For the Kain line, how about a counter proposal: If that happens again, please...kill me. I think that would convey the gravitas that you're looking for along with the textual fluidity that I'm looking for.

For the Scottishy text, well.. you could go full Elizabethan which would be more conventional in a situation where you want to convey something epic and ancient. Yet, I liked the Scottishy lines! They were unique and interesting. You could even lean into it and throw in some laddies.  :laugh:

For 90's colloquialisms, yes I know when the game came out. I played through it 20 times in the 90's, but I find that the best written translations tend to stay away from things like "as if". I think the most charming expressions are the ones that are unique to the RPGs themselves. Seeing a lot of era specific North American slang reminds me too much of the worst offending fan translations--more so than the poorly written official ones (there are plenty of both). Well, look--if you guys really love these, I suppose I'll have to live with it--as long as we aren't referencing Bart Simpson or Monica Lewinsky. That would obviously force me to start working on my own version of FF4.  :laugh:

And please, if you have more feedback, keep the dialogue going! Not only are we going to be getting better versions of FFIV out of this, but I feel like this discussion is helping me improve my writing in general. The issues we are facing here are common to the vast majority of RPG translations.

« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 10:55:56 am by Chicken Knife »

vivify93

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Namingway Edition (updated to Version 1.88)
« Reply #523 on: January 06, 2019, 02:10:25 pm »
"The consistent capitalization of crystal was done in the remake". Are we talking GBA or DS? In either case, I think the tradition of things is neither here nor there since as I pointed out, bad capitalization practices have been rampant in video game translations since the beginning. I may not have indicated in my text but there were actually a few instances of crystal or crystals used generally that were not capitalized--to my obvious satisfaction. In a situation like the end game when Golbez passes you the item specifically called "Crystal", there I could see the capitalization. But whenever they are referred to generally, I simply can't see a strong argument.
I'm talking about the 2008 full 3D remake with voice acting. Not one of the enhanced ports. The elemental Crystals are considered sacred objects in-universe, and medieval texts in real life often capitalized words the writers considered important.

Rodimus can do as he sees fit of course, but I'm not changing this in my own project. I appreciate your concern though.

I think my English teacher friend is correct that His Majesty is or is not capitalized based on the word it would normally replace (whether a king's name or simply the word king) but I did find my research and my friend's explanation a little inconsistent. I wasn't sure why it would change when addressing "His Majesty" in the first person or talking about "his majesty" in the third person. However, his view did match up to my own intuition in the matter--take that as you will.
They are absolutely not right. His/Her/Your Majesty is a sign of respect, and always gets capitalized. We'd probably need a major in royal studies or royal etiquette to show us the proper usage, but for now, I'm erring on the side of caution.

For KO, I still disagree, and I don't think we should be considering FFIV Advance as the definitive standard. Nintendo was still censoring in those days, albeit less.
KO is also still the term of being incapacitated in battle in Final Fantasy, to this day. I don't use the term myself, I chose Wounded after FFVI. :P

For the Kain line, how about a counter proposal: If that happens again, please...kill me. I think that would convey the gravitas that you're looking for along with the textual fluidity that I'm looking for.
I think that works well. Thanks!

For the Scottishy text, well.. you could go full Elizabethan which would be more conventional in a situation where you want to convey something epic and ancient. Yet, I liked the Scottishy lines! They were unique and interesting. You could even lean into it and throw in some laddies.  :laugh:
Heh, nah, I think I'm probably going to clean it all up. Make it sound ethereal and alien.

For 90's colloquialisms, yes I know when the game came out. I played through it 20 times in the 90's, but I find that the best written translations tend to stay away from things like "as if". I think the most charming expressions are the ones that are unique to the RPGs themselves. Seeing a lot of era specific North American slang reminds me too much of the worst offending fan translations--more so than the poorly written official ones (there are plenty of both). Well, look--if you guys really love these, I suppose I'll have to live with it--as long as we aren't referencing Bart Simpson or Monica Lewinsky. That would obviously force me to start working on my own version of FF4.  :laugh:
Oh darn, and here I was going to rename Palom and Porom to Bart and Lisa. Guess I'll scrap that one.  :P

And please, if you have more feedback, keep the dialogue going! Not only are we going to be getting better versions of FFIV out of this, but I feel like this discussion is helping me improve my writing in general. The issues we are facing here are common to the vast majority of RPG translations.
Actually, what I had to comment on was pretty much all I had to say. You made some excellent points that I didn't have anything to say about. Regarding the Mist Village lines, a friend of mine pointed out that the whole place is literally on fire and they need to get out fast. He suggested perhaps just make it less verbose all around.

Kain: We need to get out of here! What of the girl?
Cecil: We can't leave her!
Cecil: Listen, it's dangerous here. Trust me. Take my -
Girl: No!
Kain: There's no time to reason. Just grab her!
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Chicken Knife

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Namingway Edition (updated to Version 1.88)
« Reply #524 on: January 06, 2019, 05:13:16 pm »
Kain: We need to get out of here! What of the girl?
Cecil: We can't leave her!
Cecil: Listen, it's dangerous here. Trust me. Take my -
Girl: No!
Kain: There's no time to reason. Just grab her!

I really like that. Conveying the urgency of the situation in their dialogue will only enhance the immersion of the player--and free up some space in the process.

I'm talking about the 2008 full 3D remake with voice acting. Not one of the enhanced ports. The elemental Crystals are considered sacred objects in-universe, and medieval texts in real life often capitalized words the writers considered important. 

You know, there wasn't a lot that I liked about the DS version of FFIV, but I did have a great deal of respect for its translation. But since you do make the point about medieval texts capitalizing important words, I have to argue that the DS translation was very much a medieval styled text. This contrasts with Rodimus's--and yours I presume--having a more contemporary style (or 90's if you prefer).  :laugh:  I'm not sure how your internal logic in going against contemporary norms is going to translate to the average player.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 05:24:16 pm by Chicken Knife »

vivify93

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Namingway Edition (updated to Version 1.88)
« Reply #525 on: January 06, 2019, 05:23:39 pm »
I've updated a bunch of text up 'til Golbez's big monologue, before getting Rydia back. I think I've taken care of the entire Bank 3 and I'm halfway through Bank 1. A lot of this is out of order and it's so frustrating; I was talking with a friend about Tellah's "evil" line on Mt. Ordeals, for example, but the internal order of text jumps from talking about Meteo to Milon hissing.
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Chicken Knife

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Namingway Edition (updated to Version 1.88)
« Reply #526 on: January 06, 2019, 05:27:56 pm »
I've updated a bunch of text up 'til Golbez's big monologue, before getting Rydia back. I think I've taken care of the entire Bank 3 and I'm halfway through Bank 1. A lot of this is out of order and it's so frustrating; I was talking with a friend about Tellah's "evil" line on Mt. Ordeals, for example, but the internal order of text jumps from talking about Meteo to Milon hissing.

This was the most annoying thing about doing my retranslations for Dragon Quest 1 and 2. I had to play through the games 3 times in a row during the revision process just to get the feeling right since text was in such a jumbled order. I'm actually doing this all again now for 1 because in my greenness I wasn't using an extract/insert method and couldn't increase the length of my lines at the time. 2 was done right and is much better for now.

Rodimus Primal

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Namingway Edition (updated to Version 1.88)
« Reply #527 on: January 06, 2019, 05:59:00 pm »
I've updated a bunch of text up 'til Golbez's big monologue, before getting Rydia back. I think I've taken care of the entire Bank 3 and I'm halfway through Bank 1. A lot of this is out of order and it's so frustrating; I was talking with a friend about Tellah's "evil" line on Mt. Ordeals, for example, but the internal order of text jumps from talking about Meteo to Milon hissing.

That's going to be the same for me with any updating when I get the chance to. I agree with you about Crystals and OK as far as text is concerned. Before making any updates I want to see if I can catalog them to make it easier to ensure it all works with space always being a concern. Also, it might be best for me to simply use the title screen patch instead of editing two ROMs to ensure they are all fixed.

vivify93

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Namingway Edition (updated to Version 1.88)
« Reply #528 on: January 06, 2019, 06:39:47 pm »
I'm writing down notes for you of things I've done so far. I can send you the first half (All changes in Bank 3, changes made to the first half of Bank 1). I realize a lot of changes I made are no longer applicable to Namingway Edition, but it might save you a bit of time.

Here's a Pastebin of my changes thus far

Edit - Finished banks 1 and 3 as well as battle msgs and alerts. Quite a few changes.

General changes i couldnt be assed to list:
- Capitalizing Lunarian
Edit - undid capitalization of Chief Engineer for drawn out complicated reasons, but capitalized the 1st E of Esper like FFVI SNES

Yeah

bank 1 and 3, plus battle msgs and alerts: https://pastebin.com/DWZYwmp7

bank 2, plus a couple missed bank 1 and battle msgs: https://pastebin.com/J6TDhSnM

i didnt take a few of chicken's suggestions into account cause they didnt apply to project ii. also i still need to do a full pass of bank 2. but that will not happen tonight. thanks


Edit 2 - Bank 1/Message 150 is supposed to say "Consider this", not "Consider his"

Bank 1/Message 265 should say impostor, not imposter


Edit 3 -
Bank 1/Message 432 should say "at the summit", not "atthe summit"

Bank 1/Message 465 should say "dream", not "dreasm"
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 01:02:09 pm by vivify93 »
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Spooniest

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Namingway Edition (updated to Version 1.88)
« Reply #529 on: January 06, 2019, 06:45:51 pm »
Just popping in to say that I've been helping vivify with the script, too. Used to be an English major, and am familiar with the game's 25 character-per-line limit.
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vivify93

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Namingway Edition (updated to Version 1.88)
« Reply #530 on: January 07, 2019, 12:17:44 pm »
yup. he's been the friend ive mentioned! i didnt know if he wanted his name to be dropped though and i didn't think to ask. he's come up with a lot of lines i've liked  :D
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Chicken Knife

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Namingway Edition (updated to Version 1.88)
« Reply #531 on: January 07, 2019, 06:08:08 pm »
I used to play the hell out of Spooniest's addendums to the J2E translation. I thought they were night and day better than the original hack. It was mainly the prospect of bug fixes that made me branch out to other versions. Good stuff!
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 06:22:28 pm by Chicken Knife »

Rodimus Primal

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Namingway Edition (updated to Version 1.88)
« Reply #532 on: January 07, 2019, 07:53:37 pm »
I'm going through it now myself. Thanks vivify93 and Spooniest for helping mark most of the lines, which will same me a lot of time. As I'm updating things, I'm also making a few additional tweaks as well to better reflect the DS/PC translation.

January 10, 2019, 11:21:34 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Okay I've spent the past three days working on this, painstakingly going through every line that vivify93 has listed to update. I lined it up with Chicken Knife's suggestions and also double checked them with what we know of the Japanese script from Legends of Localization, the DS script, the GBA, and the PSP scripts. It's been a long process for sure.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 11:21:34 am by Rodimus Primal »

vivify93

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Namingway Edition (updated to Version 1.88)
« Reply #533 on: January 10, 2019, 12:41:32 pm »
It sounds like this'll be the largest and most impressive update to Namingway Edition yet!
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Rodimus Primal

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Namingway Edition (updated to Version 1.88)
« Reply #534 on: January 10, 2019, 09:30:24 pm »
It sounds like this'll be the largest and most impressive update to Namingway Edition yet!

It will be. Right now I am making some fine tuning. My current issue, which I expected, is Bank 1 is full. I had a sigh of relief when I finished Bank 2 and 3 though.

vivify93

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Namingway Edition (updated to Version 1.88)
« Reply #535 on: January 10, 2019, 10:15:01 pm »
Same for me with Bank 2. I am literally out of room. I had to adjust an NPC's dialogue and it just wouldn't take. I had to scour through for some text I could trim. FFIV is a cruel master.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 12:07:38 am by vivify93 »
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Rodimus Primal

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Namingway Edition (updated to Version 1.88)
« Reply #536 on: January 11, 2019, 12:09:12 am »
OMG, same for me with Bank 2. I am literally out of room. I had to adjust an NPC's dialogue and it just wouldn't take. I had to scour through for some text I could trim. FFIV is a cruel master.

That it is! I changed a LOT of NPCs dialogue in Bank 2 to make it all fit and I was surprised it did. I honestly hope giving the game this much attention is worth my time.

January 12, 2019, 09:07:03 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
So in order to make the changes and have it fit, I was forced to remove the tutorial from Kain in the beginning where he breaks the fourth wall for new players. This allowed me to greatly expand the dialog in a lot of places. Because of this, I added a line in the Training Room letting players know that there is a Button dash.

What I really need right now to ensure this is ready to go is a play tester just to make sure I didn't mess anything up.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2019, 09:07:03 am by Rodimus Primal »

vivify93

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Namingway Edition (updated to Version 1.88)
« Reply #537 on: January 14, 2019, 01:40:24 am »
If it makes you feel any better, I removed that tutorial too. Spooniest mentioned to me that most people playing our mods will be existing FFIV fans. I only kept it in because I had hoped maybe someone would show it to their kids or young siblings... Not exactly realistic in the grand scheme of things, though.

Edit - Spooniest let me know of a major error. There are 2 missing music cues.

First: There's supposed to be the "surprised" music sting when you lose the Dark Crystal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NRY-UrLomM&t=8072

This is Bank 1, Message 341. The opcode /song031 is supposed to be at the end of this text box.

Second: The music is supposed to stop when Giott is mentioning the Lunar Whale.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NRY-UrLomM&t=8147

Bank 1, Message 379. The opcode /song000 is supposed to be at the end of Giott's second text box, where in Project II, he says:

Code: [Select]
…Unless the fabled Lunar
 Whale appears.It's an
 enormous ark spoken of in a
 dwarven legend.

To Namingway Edition players, please don't hold Rodimus accountable for this; these are my 6-year-old oversights. Thank you. :)
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 03:37:30 am by vivify93 »
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Re: Final Fantasy IV Namingway Edition (updated to Version 1.88)
« Reply #538 on: January 14, 2019, 10:22:27 am »
If it makes you feel any better, I removed that tutorial too. Spooniest mentioned to me that most people playing our mods will be existing FFIV fans. I only kept it in because I had hoped maybe someone would show it to their kids or young siblings... Not exactly realistic in the grand scheme of things, though.

Edit - Spooniest let me know of a major error. There are 2 missing music cues.

First: There's supposed to be the "surprised" music sting when you lose the Dark Crystal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NRY-UrLomM&t=8072

This is Bank 1, Message 341. The opcode /song031 is supposed to be at the end of this text box.

Second: The music is supposed to stop when Giott is mentioning the Lunar Whale.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NRY-UrLomM&t=8147

Bank 1, Message 379. The opcode /song000 is supposed to be at the end of Giott's second text box, where in Project II, he says:

Code: [Select]
…Unless the fabled Lunar
 Whale appears.It's an
 enormous ark spoken of in a
 dwarven legend.

To Namingway Edition players, please don't hold Rodimus accountable for this; these are my 6-year-old oversights. Thank you. :)

Thanks guys for pointing that out. I've been trying to play test where I can but I haven't got that far into the game yet. I fixed them, but you might also want to change the next line about the Mysidian legend to "One born from a dragon's mouth..." so it matches what is said in Mysidia. Though I'm tempted to change that whole line to "One born from dragon's maw."


vivify93

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Re: Final Fantasy IV Namingway Edition (updated to Version 1.88)
« Reply #539 on: January 19, 2019, 01:22:51 am »
OK, so here are the changes Spooniest and I made in Project II v2.40, in addition to the older Pastebins.

https://pastebin.com/VjLMtXh3

I need to catalog these along with the initial changes for 8.bit.fan next.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 01:58:31 am by vivify93 »
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