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Author Topic: [NES] Metroid 1 hack - "Metroid - Rogue Dawn" - Version 1.21  (Read 228510 times)

Chpexo

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« Reply #80 on: April 25, 2015, 09:19:04 pm »
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« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 10:05:35 am by Chpexo »

Grimlock

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Re: [NES] Metroid 1 hack - "Metroid - Rogue Dawn" Work in progress
« Reply #81 on: April 26, 2015, 01:48:29 am »
Any intersecting areas?  :D

Actually that's a pretty interesting idea.  With the new MMC3 mapper enhancements coupled with some clever graphics and level designing it could become a reality (or at least a complex illusion/deception). 

I'm sure this was said before, but this hack looks gorgeous. Keep up the good work! :thumbsup:

Thanks Chpexo, I always appreciate a compliment from a fellow graphics artist.  :happy:

Trax

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Re: [NES] Metroid 1 hack - "Metroid - Rogue Dawn" Work in progress
« Reply #82 on: April 27, 2015, 09:13:57 pm »
Thanks Trax  :beer:.  Snarfblam added greater control of scrolling transitions in his editor Editroid.  The original game toggled vertical and horizontal scrolling every time the player passed through a bubble door.  With Editroid you can transition how ever you choose, vertical to vertical, horizontal to horizontal.  You're able to pull off some pretty neat stuff with it.

I'm curious about the mechanics of it. How do you tell Samus that she can "touch" the side of the screen, i.e. stop the scrolling? In the original game, I presume that a screen with a door on either side will cause this effect. This hack seems to have some sort of invisible door object that does the change in scrolling...

mrrichard999

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Re: [NES] Metroid 1 hack - "Metroid - Rogue Dawn" Work in progress
« Reply #83 on: April 27, 2015, 09:23:11 pm »
Dont want to spoil it but the "Tourian" level graphics and added ASM changes are just phenomenal!!!

snarfblam

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Re: [NES] Metroid 1 hack - "Metroid - Rogue Dawn" Work in progress
« Reply #84 on: April 27, 2015, 10:19:53 pm »
I'm curious about the mechanics of it.

There are two aspects to it. Doorway tiles (those between door bubbles) trigger a room transition. We can use invisible tiles that have the same behavior to have doorless room transitions.

To stop the screen from scrolling beyond the edge of a scrolling region (and I'm not sure that this is used in Rogue Dawn, at least not everywhere), you can use a screen-load routine. The game has a variable that is set when a door is present to stop scrolling. The screen-load routine simply sets this variable.

Spoiler:

This isn't from Rogue Dawn, but the same tricks are used here. In my case, the doorway tiles are visible for development and debugging. The StopLeftScroll routine is called from the screen-load routine for the selected room.

watcher

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Re: [NES] Metroid 1 hack - "Metroid - Rogue Dawn" Work in progress
« Reply #85 on: April 29, 2015, 06:05:05 am »
i finally got around creating an account, just to say: this hack looks frikn awesome. i am highly anticipating this hack as a metroid fan (Super Metroid FTW ^^). if you are still searching for a tester, i can offer my service, i can actually play test it on hardware (using an N8) and see if it also is running properly or if any bugs are occuring. i would love to help out (and play the game :D)
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 06:24:50 am by watcher »

Grimlock

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Re: [NES] Metroid 1 hack - "Metroid - Rogue Dawn" Work in progress
« Reply #86 on: April 29, 2015, 11:18:28 pm »
Thanks Watcher, sorry to disappoint but this is a modification of the original classic NES Metroid.  There's a tsunami of Super Metroid activity over at the Metroid Construction forum if you'd like to see some impressive Super Metroid projects in the works.

watcher

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Re: [NES] Metroid 1 hack - "Metroid - Rogue Dawn" Work in progress
« Reply #87 on: April 30, 2015, 10:47:45 am »
whoops, i see that i might have expressed myself wrong, i meant that i love the metroid series, and that super metroid is in my opinion the best one (thus i wrote "Super Metroid FTW").
I know that this is a Metroid 1 hack for the NES, not the SNES. sry for the confusion.
anyways, impressive work!

Grimlock

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Re: [NES] Metroid 1 hack - "Metroid - Rogue Dawn" Work in progress
« Reply #88 on: May 01, 2015, 08:37:54 am »
No worries Watcher, thanks for posting!   :thumbsup:

SpiderWaffle

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Re: [NES] Metroid 1 hack - "Metroid - Rogue Dawn" Work in progress
« Reply #89 on: May 04, 2015, 03:39:14 am »
I just thought this should have some discussion, maybe also on metroid construction forum specifically about new editroid.

So there's a bit of a potential exploit with new ASM items/inherit features being added in, specifically "morph in air" ,MIA, and "jump while morphed" aka spring ball. This is because M1 has always had the well-known and well received and enjoyed feature of being able to unmorph in air and jump, morph jump, MJ, see videos below for some examples of MJ uses:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEBtzeUAY9E#t=9m35
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEBtzeUAY9E#t=11m5s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67kQ3l-1qMs#t=10m42s

So used together MIA and MJ would more or less give you the power equivalent to space jump from M3. A MJ only works with no left/right input from start of unmorph until jump, so all jumps must be non-running jumps, ie no screw attack, also be a bit harder to move left/right than space jump, but also allow controlled firing between jumps and bombs to be layed while briefly morphed. Spring ball would basically give you double jump height, and maybe more synergy with bomb boosted jumps too, not nearly quite the same power level but still notable.

I heard from Grimlock that Snarfblam's plan was to patch out the original M1 behavior of MJ. Personally I'd rather have the original behavior MJ than MIA or spring ball. MJ is a really eloquent, radical and fair technique that requires a bit of skill and timing to use effectively but is not too hard for anyone to learn and practice and works intuitively. Designing maps and playing in-game with it is really quite great.

Where as MIA, really doesn't add a lot to M1, a lot of the use could also be done with spring ball and/or bomb chains; or the area designed with 1 less ceiling block, you're really not adding whole lot of depth here.

Spring ball is somewhat similar, most of what it does can already be done with bomb chains, though in combination with MJ it's NOT really that OP particularly if it's jumping a tad lower than standing jumps, plus it requires an item pickup, much like high jump or wall jump. Would be almost like a slightly better high jump in what it can do, it could also provide awesome synergy with high jump, ie double high jumps, making high jump more of a relevant pickup with more utility to consider, as it's currently one of the least notable items, especially with wall jump in the mix.

Personally I don't see a problem with MJ combined with spring ball, particularly because spring ball is it's own item pickup. I see more synergy and interesting and fair combo dynamics that would benefit game play and game design. I would say it might be better if spring ball could be coded not to jump quite as high as a regular standing jump, which is intuitive and moderates the power level splendidly.

And ideal solution with MIA and MJ, though maybe quite hard to program, would be to not allow MJ after an MIA. IE, a flag for 'disabled MJ' to be triggered once an MIA is initiated and only to be unflagged once "ground state" is reached. I'm assuming the plan to disable MJ was to change the block of code that puts you in ground state after unmoprhing in air to instead just leave you "in air state". This would make using ground state as the condition to disable the flag prudent.

I'm not sure if Snarf is up for that flag solution, but that would be my top pick, scrapping MIA second pick, scraping MJ and adding MIA last pick. And I suppose another option somewhere in the middle of those would be to make MJ an item pickup.

Regardless, I'm really quite impressed and thrilled with the news of new ASM embedded item pickups and the new editroid features. Before this was mostly just speculation and fantasy , "boy wouldn't it be awesome and better with ASM instead of Lua? Ya, but that's hard and no one is showing the initiative."

So I salute you Snarfblam.
and it's great that Grimlock is doing the new editroid it's justice with this awesome hack, I'm really excited to play this and blossom the M1 hacking community.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 05:14:39 am by SpiderWaffle »

snarfblam

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Re: [NES] Metroid 1 hack - "Metroid - Rogue Dawn" Work in progress
« Reply #90 on: May 04, 2015, 06:03:54 pm »
Ultimately, this is Grimlock's hack and I defer to him, but I'm just going to give my two cents here. Jumping up from thin air after you unmorph is a bug. Yes, it is useful. I use it myself constantly. (It's very handy for getting early varia.) And it's what we're used to. But I don't see a problem with removing a bug and replacing it with more complete, solid controls. Mid-air morph is handy, and springball is a convenience. I expect Grimlock will get input from testers regarding physics/control changes, and he'll probably take other people's opinions into account too. So, don't think I'm discounting your opinion. But we at least intend to give it a try and see how it goes.

Dr. Floppy

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Re: [NES] Metroid 1 hack - "Metroid - Rogue Dawn" Work in progress
« Reply #91 on: May 04, 2015, 07:44:03 pm »
Can Samus shoot downwards in this hack?

SpiderWaffle

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Re: [NES] Metroid 1 hack - "Metroid - Rogue Dawn" Work in progress
« Reply #92 on: May 04, 2015, 08:54:52 pm »
I'm speaking more for Editroid. For a particular hack I agree; if that's what they want to design around which I'm guessing Rogue Dawn was already a long time ago, they should be able to do that. For Editroid though, it would be great to have the option, "disable MJ" Boolean. Personally I'd much rather design around MJ and already have as it's beautifully balanced and unique which makes for very creative ideas and radical alternative solutions. I really just don't see MIA doing half that. Also with MJ spring ball is no longer merely a convenience but a really interesting combo mechanic to design around.

Bug or feature semantics are meaningless, it really acts like and is used just a like perfectly designed feature that's been in the originally devolved game and cherished since 1986.

What about the ideal solution, is that a possibility? or making MJ it's own item?

Grimlock

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Re: [NES] Metroid 1 hack - \"Metroid - Rogue Dawn\" Work in progress
« Reply #93 on: May 04, 2015, 09:20:56 pm »
SpiderWaffle, the issue with leaving the unmorph in air and jump bug in is that it will break a lot of areas and challenges.  This game isn't designed like the original Metroid and has a more realistic environment.  The unmorph in air and jump bug coupled with the ability to morph again in air would give the player the ability to skip significant sections of the game resulting in potential perma-stucks (No bombs for example).  Basically as you pointed out the player could just keep jumping up.  Wall jump would be rendered useless as would the high jump.  You would essentially be able to start and go nearly strait to the final area.  Certain routes are presented as you progress but are inaccessible until you return with the proper ability, be it wall jump, bomb, morph jump and such.  Even if the unmorph in air and jump bug were left in I really can't see where it would be of much use honestly, most areas are fairly easy to navigate.

As Snarf said, we are going to do some playtesting with the new abilities added into the ROM.  I'm sure several things will change including adding additional passageways to take advantage of the new abilities as well as fine tuning puzzles and challenges that are too easily defeated by the new abilities.  If it isn't too difficult on Snarf maybe we'll leave the unmorph in air and jump bug in for the initial testing just to see how much of a potential game breaker it is. 

Thanks for the input SpiderWaffle.  I'm sure if there are enough people who would like to see the unmorph in air and jump bug in the hack someone will add it back in some time after the hack has been released.

Can Samus shoot downwards in this hack?

No, we haven't discussed adding that feature into the hack, honestly it's fairly unlikely.  I have no doubt Snarf could pull it off, maybe we'll see that ability in a future Metroid hack.  I'm hoping to see more people involved with M1 hacking in the future.

May 04, 2015, 09:25:48 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
I'm speaking more for Editroid. For a particular hack I agree; if that's what they want to design around which I'm guessing Rogue Dawn was already a long time ago, they should be able to do that. For Editroid though, it would be great to have the option, "disable MJ" Boolean. Personally I'd much rather design around MJ and already have as it's beautifully balanced and unique which makes for very creative ideas and radical alternative solutions. I really just don't see MIA doing half that. Also with MJ spring ball is no longer merely a convenience but a really interesting combo mechanic to design around.

Bug or feature semantics are meaningless, it really acts like and is used just a like perfectly designed feature that's been in the originally devolved game and cherished since 1986.

What about the ideal solution, is that a possibility? or making MJ it's own item?

Editroid doesn't remove the unmorph in air and jump bug, it'll be there by default for all other game edits.  It's only being removed in this particular hack due to the nature of the level design coupled with the new player abilities Snarf has developed.

snarfblam

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Re: [NES] Metroid 1 hack - \"Metroid - Rogue Dawn\" Work in progress
« Reply #94 on: May 05, 2015, 04:48:36 pm »
Editroid doesn't remove the unmorph in air and jump bug, it'll be there by default for all other game edits.
This. When you open a ROM and expand it, there should be no changes observable to the player. Enhancements to the game engine permit a variety of changes, but they're optional. Other changes, such as IBJ or disabling unmorph-and-jump can be made available to paste or import into the assembler. But I have no interest in forcing features on users.  :)

SpiderWaffle

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Re: [NES] Metroid 1 hack - "Metroid - Rogue Dawn" Work in progress
« Reply #95 on: May 05, 2015, 04:52:24 pm »
Quote
SpiderWaffle, the issue with leaving the unmorph in air and jump bug in is that it will break a lot of areas and challenges.  This game isn't designed like the original Metroid and has a more realistic environment.  The unmorph in air and jump bug coupled with the ability to morph again in air would give the player the ability to skip significant sections of the game resulting in potential perma-stucks (No bombs for example).  Basically as you pointed out the player could just keep jumping up.  Wall jump would be rendered useless as would the high jump.  You would essentially be able to start and go nearly strait to the final area.  Certain routes are presented as you progress but are inaccessible until you return with the proper ability, be it wall jump, bomb, morph jump and such.

Exactly, enabling both MJ and MIA available with only maru mari would be by far the worst option completely breaking so much of the game. I'm arguing the original MJ and no MIA would be a better option and that the best option would be to prevent MJ to be used after a MIA. Also having MJ and/or MIA as their own item pickups would be other options, I think still better than removing the original MJ for the sake of adding MIA.

If Rogue Dawn is already designed to use MIA a lot and not seeing uses for MJ it makes sense to have MIA a default. Regardless, users should be able to do what they want. I think it'd be great for editroid though to have the other options available.

EDIT: Snarf is on top of this already and is awesome!


Quote
Can Samus shoot downwards in this hack?
The problem with shootdown in M1 is that that omits a lot of the utility and game design around bombs, such has entrance to Kraid's lair being walked over at the start of the game and then you know to come back there later to bomb down once you have bombs, this game dynamic is pretty much the crux of metroid. There's no super bombs or bomb only blocks. So as it turns out for M1 having the challenge to shoot something below you or at your feet is rather pertinent to level design. You could make a hack with that, would be able do some other stuff with shootdown like for fighting enemies, but you're going to lose a large part of the original game design.

Side note: Having wave beam be an option to hit some blocks one block high to open a path was something I planed to incorporate in my future hacks.

90s Retro Gamer

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Re: [NES] Metroid 1 hack - "Metroid - Rogue Dawn" Work in progress
« Reply #96 on: May 06, 2015, 02:37:15 pm »
Amazing sprite work. You mentioned it is a vanilla-expanded ROM. Will it work on original hardware with an Everdrive NES-cart?

mrrichard999

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Re: [NES] Metroid 1 hack - "Metroid - Rogue Dawn" Work in progress
« Reply #97 on: May 06, 2015, 05:34:43 pm »
As much as I like that morph-jump trick, i don't see an issue with taking it off. Would make the game more bug free and less exploitable.

Grimlock

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Re: [NES] Metroid 1 hack - "Metroid - Rogue Dawn" Work in progress
« Reply #98 on: May 06, 2015, 10:20:52 pm »
Will it work on original hardware with an Everdrive NES-cart?

Not sure, we'll have to test it out. 

mrrichard999

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Re: [NES] Metroid 1 hack - "Metroid - Rogue Dawn" Work in progress
« Reply #99 on: May 07, 2015, 12:57:41 am »
Tested on my xbox with the NES emulator, works perfectly!