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Author Topic: (Legal Action) - For those hackers that tend to ask money to release a hack.  (Read 11617 times)

Jonesy47

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I never really ran into this problem UNTIL



http://www.project-melancholia.org/

...

--MOD EDIT--
Removed inflammatory remarks.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 06:33:39 pm by Azkadellia »

CM30

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Wait, people are asking money for hacks now?  Jesus, what is this world coming to?

As for the Melancholia thing... very disappointing.  No one who asks for money for a fan project is a real fan, not in my opinion.
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ShadowOne333

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Wait, people are asking money for hacks now?  Jesus, what is this world coming to?

As for the Melancholia thing... very disappointing.  No one who asks for money for a fan project is a real fan, not in my opinion.
Not asking money DIRECTLY...
They disguise it as either "taking donations until a certain amount of money fills up" or they either won't release the hacks until someone offers an amount of money that they think is acceptable for their work.

ddstranslation

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I never really ran into this problem UNTIL

http://www.project-melancholia.org/

...

Makes me mad still...I hate leaks but I wish someone would leak this. This shit CAN. NOT. STAND.

ps. pm, if you know about a leak, ha.

I can't help but feel that there is some sort of irony going on here, since if I remember correctly, the very first SD Snatcher translation was also sold for money.

This is just my personal opinion, but it is completely wrong to charge (or hold out for money) for doing derivative works such as fan translations. All of this should just be done for fun or to help people enjoy games in their native language. The only reason we do this is because certain regions fall through the cracks or get ignored when it comes to localization.

Hell, I may lose my house next month, but it never once occurred to me to even dare ask for or accept a single penny from anyone. I didn't write the game. I don't own the rights to it. The copyright holder didn't commission me to do this. I did it because I wanted people to be able to play a game. The happiness of the fans should be payment enough.

If you think you deserve to be paid for translating a game, you probably should have asked the copyright holder before you even started, and gotten a job with them. Fan translation shouldn't be something you can profit off of.

Quote
We know some people tend to dislike the idea of having to pay money for an MSX related production. However, we put much time and effort in realizing this translation, which of course we did because we loved doing it, but that doesn't mean we don't like to be able to drink a few beers on your account because you're enjoying our work, either.

God, I think I'm going to be sick.

Jonesy47

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-Content in violation of forum rules has been removed from this post-

edit: Oh and dd, you're amazing for your megaten translation. I thought everyone who did this kinda work felt the same way but I guess not. Hope you save your house. Just wanted to add that.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 10:23:53 am by MathOnNapkins »

tc

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It's naturally tempting to think about the awesome hacks money in the right place could lead to.
However... In the long run we're better off improving homebrew engines, than risk unnecessary legal and technical hassles.

dshadoff

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Re: WARNING - For those hackers that tend to ask money to release their hacks...
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2014, 10:39:21 am »
While it is an interesting conversation, I am seeing that some posters are confusing two completely separate thoughts as being the same thing.  That is to say, "does the creator of a modification have the right to ask for money", and "does the creator of a modification have any rights at all".

I'll illustrate with an analogy - a pancake recipe.

If I come up with a new pancake recipe, based on a very famous pancake recipe, it may well be true that I shouldn't ask for money for it, or refer to the original pancake recipe, or use it for commercial purposes, or perhaps even refer to it as a recipe for "pancakes".  I think most of us agree on that point.  We may disagree on the degree of how wrong any of those things are (ie. damages), but let's put that aside for the moment.

HOWEVER, just because I shouldn't be asking for money for it, and may not even be able to use the work "pancake" in public, it does not hold true that I should give away this recipe to anybody who asks, simply because they want it in their own collection of derivative recipes.  That is a separate concept.

Perhaps I'm satisfied to enjoy it myself, or occasionally for special guests who visit my home.
After all, even distributing the recipe for free might be considered to be against the law... so why would somebody put themselves at risk, simply because of the request of a stranger ?

Please think about this, while you're thinking about the first part.

FAST6191

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Re: WARNING - For those hackers that tend to ask money to release their hacks...
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2014, 01:09:40 pm »
Recipes tend not to be copyrightable ( http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl122.html , https://www.finedininglovers.com/stories/how-to-protect-recipes/ and http://www.copyright.org.au/admin/cms-acc1/_images/1596565075238ef3564126.pdf , I am struggling to find anything specific to Canada but that does the US, the UK/EU and Australia, what I could find on Canada seemed to think it fell much in line with the others). The closest you tend to get in that world is trade secrets.

Others have said most of what I would. The only thing I might ponder further is whether companies feel ROM hacking does not infringe upon trademark law -- such things seem to be the main reason (though a good/acceptable one) for troubling fan remakes/sequels.

dshadoff

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Re: WARNING - For those hackers that tend to ask money to release their hacks...
« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2014, 01:37:08 pm »
The "recipe" thing was an analogy.

Please feel free to interchange it with "fan anime mashup video", or "home remix version of a hit single", or "fan fiction", etc.
Essentially any derivative work created without permission of the original author.  Such works are generally created for the own personal enjoyment of the secondary author -- although others might enjoy them, and the original authors or copyright holders may perceive infringement.

My point was that although a thing may be "commercially valueless", it does not follow that the work has been "worthless", and further does not follow that it is therefore public domain, or that it must be mandatorily volunteered as community property.

I just wanted to keep this idea separate from the idea of whether infringement is taking place, or what perceived value that infringement might denote.  I noticed that some posters seemed to be implying that "infringement" should beget "mandatory publication", which is clearly not true.

Jonesy47

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Re: WARNING - For those hackers that tend to ask money to release their hacks...
« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2014, 02:13:21 pm »
I'd be fine if, instead of someone leaking the sd snatcher hack, that their service simply disappeared, yes. I don't think everyone HAS to share, but once you cross that line of taking cash for something that isn't even legally owned by you, then yes, I do think there should be vigilante justice. Enjoying/modifying other's work is fine. To make a profit off of said work, on the other hand, especially when the law expressly forbids it, and I officially no longer care if you want to "keep the recipe a home secret". Just saying.

The analogy of the pancake recipe is off anyways, considering these people have a website and have gotten the word out to areas of the internet that would or might purchase the hack so it's not like grandma who only shows her recipes to people she loves or trusts. Once you charge for the pancakes that you have no right to charge for, then there's no reason not to steal that pancake.

Pennywise

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Re: WARNING - For those hackers that tend to ask money to release their hacks...
« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2014, 04:04:36 pm »
You need to get off your high horse, jonesy. You're probably just pissed off you can't play it for free...

They're not really part of the romhacking community and are more part of the MSX community. One of the translators is even Dutch IIRC. Most people who bought it are probably part of the MSX community and have played the translation on their MSX. Technically, they're only paying for the patch anyway.

Anyway, I don't agree with them charging for the patch, but I won't bash them for doing so nor will I support them by paying for it or even playing it. Historically, this has been going on since the early days when Oasis (another Dutch group) did a bunch of translations for the MSX and sold them at conventions, swap meets etc.

Jonesy47

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Re: WARNING - For those hackers that tend to ask money to release their hacks...
« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2014, 04:52:39 pm »
I'll agree to disagree on this one.
No, i don't just want it for free, either. It legitimately just pisses me off that a group is doing this. The translation, from what I've seen, has awesome vwf work but the translation itself is pretty lacking as far as the english wording of things goes so no, Im not just "cheesed off" because I want it. I can play the old Oasis translation and be pretty much as well off.

Also, its funny that you mention Oasis because, as far as I can tell, all of Oasis' work was eventually leaked. Funny how that works when you charge for things you dont intellectually own, isn't it?

EDIT: All that crap about oasis stuff leaking was me mistaking them for another group in romhacking that may or may not really exist (because yeah, my brains dumb like that sometimes). I'm leaving my mistake there to remind myself not to be such a retard when speaking online for future posterity. I agree with everything I said before I mention Oasis, however.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 05:11:48 pm by Jonesy47 »

VicVergil

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Re: (Legal Action) - For those hackers that tend to ask money to release a hack.
« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2015, 01:27:24 am »
Considering it was already stated by the moderation team that RHDN doesn't support paid hacks, I think it might be useful then to point out this --

The ones running that MSX project for SD Snatcher uploaded a "demo patch" in IPS form here on RHDN.
It's basically serving as a free advertisement for their future full commercial and illegal (considering it will be sold for money) translation. They stated multiple times already they have no intention to release it for free.

For now the "full" patch isn't out in the wild yet according to that site, but just in case... Would this demo patch's existence on the servers be considered a potential legal liability for the RHDN administration?

And that's besides the moral implications of someone promoting paid bootlegs using free RHDN as a platform and as their for-free ad billboard.
I know of D's endeavors (my prototype preservation side cringes at the fact they withheld a proto release for an unreleased official localization, but I digress) and he never had such demos or teasers here, besides him going through the trouble of legally licensing their releases - so I assume this case here at hand is by no means standard.

The included readme has ad bullet points for the "full game" - including the line "all text has been translated", which doesn't fit this patch here.

EDIT: Seems like the original thread discussing this translation was in the wrong forum. Could a mod move it please? I thought that this thread was the most fitting place to point this out.

L___E___T

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Re: (Legal Action) - For those hackers that tend to ask money to release a hack.
« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2015, 06:04:33 pm »
Drakon has been pulling this for years...

http://castlevaniadungeon.net/forums/index.php?topic=6985.0

(bear in mind first post was edited, after someone else quoted it mind...)

Exact "until donations reach a certain amount" line spun here, in the comments section too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wErLSJX4kbo

So while this isn't a huge or common problem, it's something that should be wiped out.

That Drakon guy is also already controversial enough to have been banned from every forum to the point he had to start his own forum (I'm not kidding).

Disch

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Re: (Legal Action) - For those hackers that tend to ask money to release a hack.
« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2015, 07:22:04 pm »
So... I only skimmed the thread here....

It sounds like some guy is making a translation, but won't release it until he received enough donations.  And this somehow is annoying people.

So... what's the problem?  If you don't agree with his practices, don't donate any money.  When the translation comes out, just pirate it like you pirate everything else.  Or if it doesn't get released, then you're no worse off than you were before.

Yeah what he's doing is of questionable legality -- but so is the entire field of ROM hacking.

SunGodPortal

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Re: (Legal Action) - For those hackers that tend to ask money to release a hack.
« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2015, 07:37:16 pm »
Quote
So... I only skimmed the thread here....

It sounds like some guy is making a translation, but won't release it until he received enough donations.  And this somehow is annoying people.

So... what's the problem?  If you don't agree with his practices, don't donate any money.  When the translation comes out, just pirate it like you pirate everything else.  Or if it doesn't get released, then you're no worse off than you were before.

Yeah what he's doing is of questionable legality -- but so is the entire field of ROM hacking.

Very good point. That's what I think all the time during these arguments.

But at the same time, asking money for a hack feels cheesy to me. "I'll do this job that no one asked me to do and ask people to pay me for it". What do these people expect?
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