News: 11 March 2016 - Forum Rules
Current Moderators - DarkSol, KingMike, MathOnNapkins, Azkadellia, Danke

Author Topic: Dr. Right 's updates (From Rockman & Forte) -- something's not right.  (Read 5380 times)

azoreseuropa

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 392
    • View Profile










There are only five that Dr. Right/Light will say different things depending how many you found them.
 
According to windhex, there's 6 of them instead of 5. That's English translated by Aeon Genesis. Error ?? My version are only 5 display Japanese characters version below:

000~010

は、はやく
かいしゅう
するのじゃ!

011~030

なかなか
みつからない
ようじゃな・・
 
031~060

このちょうしで
もっと
さがすのじゃ

061~099

いいぞ!
もうすこし!
がんばるのじゃ

100

よくやった!
これで、ひと
 あんしんじゃ

CONFUSION.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 03:01:39 pm by bearmon2010 »

Gideon Zhi

  • Discord Staff
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3531
    • View Profile
    • Aeon Genesis
I only count 5. The "sixth" is a message that gets displayed when your save data's checksum fails. It comes right after the five you've dumped:

また
やりよったな
しんじんめ!

Isao Kronos

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1308
  • Dog is God, God is Dog
    • View Profile
if you don't like the current translation you're free to do one yourself with your own hacking and translating
will hackrom for Red Lobster Cheddar Bay biscuits

azoreseuropa

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 392
    • View Profile
I only count 5. The "sixth" is a message that gets displayed when your save data's checksum fails. It comes right after the five you've dumped:

また
やりよったな
しんじんめ!

Ahh, thank you. That explains everything. You are very kindly. Cheers!

azoreseuropa

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 392
    • View Profile
To Gideon Zhi:

There are only 4 that Rightout/Auto will say different things for Rockman/Forte (Megaman/Bass).
 
According to your windhex, there's 5 of them instead of 4 for Rockman/Forte (Megaman/Bass). That's English translated by Aeon Genesis. Error ?? My version are only 4 display Japanese characters version below:

Rockman/Megaman into the shop after the museum was done:
----

おかえりダス! ロックが あつめてきたネジと
こうかんに アイテムを つくってあげるダス!

はやくキソグのロボツトを たおして いっしょに
ゲームで あそびたいダス!

[Leave shop and re-enter into the shop]

きょうも ネジをもってきてくれたダスな。
どれでも すきなパーツをつくってあげるダスよ!

それにしても オイラのつくったアイテムが ロックの
やくにたっているとおもうと、うれしいダスなあ。

Forte:

Forte/Bass into the store after the museum was done:
----

きょうも ネジをもってきてくれたダスな。
これでまたパワーアップしてあげられるダス。

このパワーアップパーツで、あなたが もっと
かつやくできるように おうえんしてるダスよ。

[Leave Shop and re-enter into the shop]

フォルテさんのために パワーアップパーツを
よういしたダス。

あつめたネジとこうかんに バリバリにパワーアップして
あげられるダスよ。

Is the FIFTH a message that gets displayed when your save data's checksum fails too ??

According to windhex, there's 5 of them instead of 4. That's English translated by Aeon Genesis. Here:

Welcome back. I've developed some brand new items just for you, Megaman.
With the parts I make, you get powered up, and at the same time, I get more bolts! What a deal!

Welcome back, Bass! I've created some new parts base on the specs from some of Wily's old designs!
This is just between you and me, but don't let Megaman beat you! I'm rooting you!

I played the game just to make sure but Rightot/Auto says only 4 display Japanese characters. Where did the fifth come from? Error ? Curiosity.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 04:03:14 pm by bearmon2010 »

Gideon Zhi

  • Discord Staff
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3531
    • View Profile
    • Aeon Genesis
There are six strings total, not five, not four. Each character has an introductory string, a "welcome back" string, and a string when Auto/Rightot expands his inventory. IIRC Auto's inventory expands twice; the "welcome back" strings may display when his inventory first expands, while the second set may display when it fills out entirely. I don't remember exactly.

azoreseuropa

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 392
    • View Profile
Thanks for replying asap. No, I am aware of Auto/Right's expands his inventory list but I am talking about an introduction, a welcome back string for Forte/Bass and Rockman/Megaman only. How many are they in Japanese version ?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 08:20:16 am by bearmon2010 »

Gideon Zhi

  • Discord Staff
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3531
    • View Profile
    • Aeon Genesis
There are four in both versions. I'm not sure what you're looking at or where your "fifth" string is, but you've only copied out two of the strings from the translation. You have to remember that English takes up much, much more space than Japanese - I make full use of all four lines in each box in the translation, even when only two print in the Japanese version.

azoreseuropa

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 392
    • View Profile
Thank you for the replying asap.

Precisely 4 for Rockman/Megaman and 4 for Forte/Bass but if you understand.. Take a look at this:

00063400 -- After the museum -- Rockman into the shop:



BUT...

Skip to

000636D0 -- Where did it came from ? I played the game in English and never saw it at Right/Auto's in the shop. My script dumped doesnt have it either.




Gideon Zhi

  • Discord Staff
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3531
    • View Profile
    • Aeon Genesis
Those are the ones that display when Auto expands his inventory, possibly the second time (after beating your fifth robot master.)

azoreseuropa

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 392
    • View Profile
Re: Dr. Right 's updates (From Rockman & Forte) -- something's not right.
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2014, 03:19:44 pm »
Thank you.

I did and defeated the fifh robot master.. Nothing. I defeated the sixth robot master. Auto expands his inventory fully after the fifth robot master and I still have the same message:

00063400 -- After the museum -- Rockman into the shop: Rightot/Auto says Welcome back. However, Rightot/Auto says in Japanese translated:

Welcome back! I'll make items for you in exchange for the screws you've gathered, Rock.

おかえりダス! ロックが あつめてきたネジと
こうかんに アイテムを つくってあげるダス!

I can't wait for you to beat King's robots so we can play games together!

はやくキソグのロボツトを たおして いっしょに
ゲームで あそびたいダス!

Leave then re-enter into the shop and also after defeated 5th robot master and I got this message:

Looks like you've got some more screws for me today.
I can make any parts you want!

きょうも ネジをもってきてくれたダスな。
どれでも すきなパーツをつくってあげるダスよ!

When I think about the items I make actually helping you out, Rock,
 it makes me happy.

それにしても オイラのつくったアイテムが ロックの
やくにたっているとおもうと、うれしいダスなあ。

Again, in your version....

I dont see anything in 000636D0 according to Japanese script dumped at all, to be honest. Also, I played your version for the fifth robot master and he never said it. He still say in your English translated after fifth robot master and re-enter into the shop before the fifth robot master - both:

Looks like you've brought me some bolts .
I'll make all sorts of great parts for you in exchange!

I'm happy to know that the items that I'm making for you
are proving useful, Megaman!

There is no Welcome back for the 2nd time on your game's screen at all. I am sure that it is an error just like Dr. Right version you mentioned about.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 04:03:04 pm by bearmon2010 »

Gideon Zhi

  • Discord Staff
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3531
    • View Profile
    • Aeon Genesis
Re: Dr. Right 's updates (From Rockman & Forte) -- something's not right.
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2014, 06:49:04 pm »
I don't know what I'm going to be able to say to convince you otherwise if you insist on finding fault with my stuff. I've double- and triple-checked here; the stuff that's present in the Japanese rom has been translated and pointed to in precisely the same way in the AGTP translation. The behavior is exactly the same, the text is the same. So you're having a hard time triggering a couple of the strings in the translated game, but you've only looked at the translated game in a hex editor and not the untranslated game. The strings are present in the Japanese script (which if you were serious about comparing my text to the Japanese text you'd actually dump, instead of just trying to play through the game.) I'd bet good money that you'd still have just as much trouble triggering them in the Japanese version of the game, and it's possible that the strings aren't used in the game at all. But they're present in the Japanese text, and the Japanese game's text pointers reference them, so we translated them and made sure that our pointers referenced them too. If they get triggered in the Japanese game, they get triggered in the translation. Period.

This is not a problem with the patch. In this case, the patch behaves exactly as the Japanese game behaves. And frankly, I'm more than a little insulted that you keep finding fault with my stuff where no actual fault exists.

Edit: And just FYI, the reason you don't see any Japanese text at 63400 is because the English script necessarily takes up more space than the Japanese script. This is the case with pretty much every translation on this site, or at least all the ones that are well done. To compensate for the greater data size, I had to put the English script into a region of the ROM with more available space.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 07:07:48 pm by Gideon Zhi »

azoreseuropa

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 392
    • View Profile
Re: Dr. Right 's updates (From Rockman & Forte) -- something's not right.
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2014, 08:03:18 pm »
I understand your frustration and confusion. I know and me too however I have untranslated script also and it's not there. The game I played my last two games : Japanese version and your game version, and it didnt show up on Rightot/Auto's screen for the 2nd time either using SNES emulator: "Welcome back" was only found in English and Japanese for the first time Rockman/Bass enter into the shop on Emulator's screen but nothing for the 2nd time comparsion to the windhex I found.

Again, the Japanese version for the 2nd time isn't there in my untranslated script as well as the Japanese game. I also sent the Rightot/Auto's Japanese scripted to Tomato site to do a translation and to comparison. None, to be honest with you. :)

Gideon Zhi

  • Discord Staff
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3531
    • View Profile
    • Aeon Genesis
Re: Dr. Right 's updates (From Rockman & Forte) -- something's not right.
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2014, 08:42:23 pm »
If you haven't dumped the Japanese text directly from the rom, you have absolutely no basis to make a correct comparison. And your complaint that the Japanese script isn't in the same place as the English script tells me that you haven't dumped the Japanese text from the rom. You're trying to pass off a two pair as a four-of-a-kind.

You do not "understand [my] frustration and confusion." I'm frustrated because you're not looking at the full picture. If the text does not print during normal game execution, that is none of my concern. We translate what's present in the game's data, regardless of whether or not it actually shows up when the game's running. Don't try to pass off strings copied from a running game as being equivalent to a full data dump, because they're not.

From the script dump:
おかえりダス! ロックのために あたらしいアイテムを
かいはつしたダスよ。
オイラのつくったパ-ツで ロックはパワ-アップできて
オイラはネジがもらえて、いっせきにちょう ダスな!

フォルテさん。おかえりダス! ワイリ-はかせの
せっけいずをもとに、あたらしいパ-ツをつくったダス。
ここだけのはなしダスが、ロックにまけちゃ
だめダスよ。 オイラもおうえんしてるダス。

azoreseuropa

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 392
    • View Profile
Re: Dr. Right 's updates (From Rockman & Forte) -- something's not right.
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2014, 10:26:42 pm »
You are absolutely right. That's strange.. Then why did I played the Japanese version doesnt show up on Rightot/Auto's shop on the screen ? I played the English version of yours as well and still dont see it on the screen. As you said after the fifth robot master for both Japanese and English. Yes, I played both and no text showing up on Auto's shop on the screen. Do not get upset with me, please!!!! Please be nice to me. I am being kind to you so I just want to understand what's going on, that's all.

Gideon Zhi

  • Discord Staff
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3531
    • View Profile
    • Aeon Genesis
Re: Dr. Right 's updates (From Rockman & Forte) -- something's not right.
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2014, 11:30:02 pm »
Do not get upset with me, please!!!! Please be nice to me. I am being kind to you so I just want to understand what's going on, that's all.

Your posts come across as extremely accusatory. You see something you can't explain, then finger my stuff and claim that there's an "error," that I did something wrong. How do you think that makes me feel? If you don't want me to get upset, don't claim that my stuff is bad the instant you see something you can't explain, especially when your methods of comparison are questionable at best.

To address the issue at hand? There are a couple of things in play here. When I hack a game, I'm obviously concerned with what the game does and how it does it, but I'm also concerned with what the game could forseeably do. This is a good example - these strings might never actually appear in normal gameplay, but in the event that they do and we just haven't figured out how to trigger them, I need to make sure that they're translated and hacked properly anyway.

None of us here have access to the original sources for the games we're working on, with the exception of special cases like SMB1 and the Sonic games where people have disassembled and commented the games' code. We have access to the strings, the structures that store the strings, and the code that immediately loads and prints the strings to the screen, but we don't often get a wider angle than that. We have to operate under the assumption that every string that's present in the game's data is used at some point or another, because even if we can't figure out how to get a string to display doesn't mean that nobody else will.

This is also why we can't just translate games by screenshotting all the text we see; it's very likely that we'll miss a string or two at some point. And this is why you can't just play one version of a game and write down everything you see, then throw a fit when text present in another version's data doesn't match anything you've written down. You need to actually dump all of the data from the game and compare, string by string. By playing the game you're almost certainly going to get a representative but inexhaustive sample of the data present under the hood.

Here's an article for you to read: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DummiedOut
You'll note a link to The Cutting Room Floor in that article. TCRF does have a section on Rockman & Forte, but these particular strings are not present. That doesn't necessarily mean that they're used though, it just means that nobody skilled enough who cares enough has definitively determined that they're not used, and as such hasn't added them to the game's wiki.

So, back to the question. Are the strings used? Hell if I know! I haven't played the game in years. But they're stored in the game's data and referenced by the game's text pointers, so I have to assume that they are used at some point even if I don't know how to get them to actually display. This is because if I assume that they're not used and remove them from the data, and if I turn out to be wrong, you end up with a glitchy game, and nobody wants that. There are many, many other ways to end up with a glitchy game, but removing text that might be used at some point or another is one that's easily avoided. Why take chances?

azoreseuropa

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 392
    • View Profile
Re: Dr. Right 's updates (From Rockman & Forte) -- something's not right.
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2014, 07:09:25 am »
I understand completely. I am not assuming you or anything but I am just trying to figure things out. Anyway, my apologies. Thanks for your clear and helpful explanation.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 07:28:15 am by bearmon2010 »