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Author Topic: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...  (Read 39989 times)

KaioShin

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Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2014, 07:30:50 am »
The stylus was either used as a one-button mouse replacement (worked somewhat ok) or as a scribble vertically or horizontally as fast as you can button mashing replacement. The later is the lamest game mechanic in existence. Incidentally, the Wiimote was used to do exactly the same in most games... That is always the goto mechanic for these awesome "innovative" input methods, twitch around like a spastic monkey having a seizure to win!

But as long as people continue to play such crap, they'll get the games they deserve.

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The 3DS is still making tons of money for Nintendo, especially in Japan. I haven't looked up any numbers, but I think it did well in the west over the holiday season too. I got one at that time, several people I know did and half the IRC channel was talking about it too. I guess the 3DS has finally crossed the "good enough amount of interesting games"-threshold. Nintendo won't change their mobile strategy, they have no reason to. The question is what they'll do with the home console market. They just can't go on as if nothing happened. Iwata needs to go for a start.
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Kiyoshi Aman

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Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2014, 08:02:26 am »
So...how many touch-enabled DS games did you try? Because I can name at least three which actively use the stylus in more ways than the ones you described: Phantom Hourglass (primary input device), Okamiden (drawing), and Brain Age (primary input device).

KaioShin

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Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2014, 08:18:47 am »
I played several dozen, how many did you play? You draw lines or numbers in the games you mentioned, oh hey guess what you can do with a mouse in MS Paint? Maybe drawing a circle feels slightly more natural with a stylus (unless you have normal sized hands, in which case the DS micro stylus would just cramp your hands), but it's still super basic boring stuff.
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MisterJones

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Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2014, 10:17:29 am »
thats like saying pressing buttons is like super boring and lame. your argument doesnt hold any weight the way your present it.  its not about how "innovative" they were, but rather how well implement in the game context were. i mean, we all can agree that dawn of sorrow binding spell mechanic was laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame. but bowser special moves on m&l bis wasnt lame. same for trauma center.
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FAST6191

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Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2014, 10:21:23 am »
Card games

The GBA had some incredible card games (which took a while to end up on the DS.... stupid poker games) but with a touch screen it was worlds apart.

There are plenty of actual touch screen games I like as well (Doodle Hex, things like world of sand,  but between card games and simplifying menus (or even rendering them intuitive) I hold the touch screen more than earned its keep. Now I am certainly not about to say drop buttons for touch screen (at least not this side of some of the more fun polymers) but I will say anything that does not have a measure of touch screen ability in handheld world, SNES and back emulation machines aside, is doing it wrong.

KaioShin

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Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2014, 10:30:12 am »
thats like saying pressing buttons is like super boring and lame. your argument doesnt hold any weight the way your present it.  its not about how "innovative" they were, but rather how well implement in the game context were. i mean, we all can agree that dawn of sorrow binding spell mechanic was laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame. but bowser special moves on m&l bis wasnt lame. same for trauma center.

Scribbling a "3" into a number box in Brain Age instead of picking a 3 from a list of numbers makes it somehow much more fun? Drawing a path for Link instead of just using the damn directional keys somehow changed the experience of a Zelda game? I haven't played M&L, but Trauma Center would have worked as a game with a mouse too. It is gimmicks, nothing of real substance.

All my posts are merely personal opinions and not statements of fact, even if they are not explicitly prefixed by "In my opinion", "IMO", "I believe", or similar modifiers. By reading this disclaimer you agree to reply in spirit of these conditions.

MisterJones

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Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2014, 11:49:48 am »
Sure, I mean, yeah, a stylus is much like a mouse, which is pretty much the point, because you know, adding a mouse to a handheld device is like very awkward, yanno?

Scribbling a "3" into a number box in Brain Age instead of picking a 3 from a list of numbers makes it somehow much more fun?

Not *much* (thanks for the unasked hyperbole) more fun, but fun and relatable enough to the target audience.

You can head for reductionism all you want, in the end, there are people (including me) that enjoyerd the stylus implementation in *some* of the games, and are glad that a mouse alternative exists for handheld devices (well, back then, nowadays touch input is the norm in mobile).

I'm not going to argue that certain implementations of some of the DS features werent gimmicky, because sure as hell they were, like the goddamn "blow the mic" gimmick everyone and their mothers loved and was soooo sooooo soooo lame i couldnt believe it.
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SargeSmash

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Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2014, 02:14:52 pm »
While a mouse and a stylus is certainly a similar device, I would certainly challenge someone to be as accurate in a drawing program with a mouse as opposed to an actual pen-style implement.

I agree that it's not the input method that's the problem, it's the implementation.  The stylus works very well for the things it was designed for, and not so well when it's trying to do things better accomplished with buttons.  While I didn't put much time into Brain Age, just the ability to write numbers on-screen as opposed to picking them out of a list (now I'm getting horrific flashbacks to spelling out words in NES Jeopardy) is an absolute revelation for that kind of software, and removes a significant barrier to non-gamers as well.  This is not a bad thing!
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BRPXQZME

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Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2014, 02:42:55 pm »
*PalmPilot flashback*
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MisterJones

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Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2014, 02:44:10 pm »
While a mouse and a stylus is certainly a similar device, I would certainly challenge someone to be as accurate in a drawing program with a mouse as opposed to an actual pen-style implement.

Challenge accepted: http://alevice.deviantart.com/
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Next Gen Cowboy

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Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2014, 04:57:07 pm »
You been dipping into the mescal again? I freaking love that whale and turtle!
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SargeSmash

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Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2014, 04:58:29 pm »
Challenge accepted: http://alevice.deviantart.com/

Are all of those MSPaint with a mouse?  Which ones am I supposed to look at?

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it takes a lot of skill, practice, and time to do with a mouse what you can do with a simple pencil and piece of paper.  Or at least that's the way it has always been for me.  My brother is far more skilled than I, and he always uses a tablet and stylus (preferably with Wacom).

Good stuff, by the way!
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MisterJones

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Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2014, 05:02:58 pm »
Everything that doesnt look like pencil or pen are mouse. Like5 or 6 are mspaint actually.

And I get your point, I just took your challenge humorously.

The whale/turtle one is like really old now. Like 2003 old :(
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Bregalad

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Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2014, 05:15:38 pm »
Quote
i mean, we all can agree that dawn of sorrow binding spell mechanic was laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame
Glad I'm not the only one to think this was the hardest part of boss battles.
Boss -> easy
rune -> aaaaarghhh

Thanks god it's the only CV game with this system in place, as I'm a huge fan of CV games on the GBA/DS.

Nightcrawler

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Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2014, 07:41:52 pm »
I agree that it's not the input method that's the problem, it's the implementation.  The stylus works very well for the things it was designed for, and not so well when it's trying to do things better accomplished with buttons.

I think what makes me the most upset is one method or the other is typically forced upon us. Why can't they just allow alternate input configurations as standard so you COULD use the stylus or motion controls if you want, or those same functions could be mapped via buttons (to an extent where possible). Then we could we could play many of those in between games with the control scheme that makes sense to the individual. Obviously there are some games which it isn't really feasible to replace the motion controls or stylus, but that usually means the game was smartly designed to take best advantage of said input. :)

I know some games do actually do this, but not nearly enough! On the PC, I can practically use anything I want to control my games from a touchscreen to a Wiimote and everything in between! :P I can map it all in whatever haphazard way makes sense to me if I choose. For everyone else, the default will do, but at least there are options.
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BRPXQZME

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Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2014, 08:58:52 pm »
The only real reason it gets much better on PC is that there is a fighting prayer of intercepting the input before it gets to the games. Most PC games don’t pay very good attention to remapping options, either. (Sooooo many Twinkies denied through the years...)
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KingMike

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Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2014, 10:18:19 pm »
Scribbling a "3" into a number box in Brain Age instead of picking a 3 from a list of numbers makes it somehow much more fun? Drawing a path for Link instead of just using the damn directional keys somehow changed the experience of a Zelda game? I haven't played M&L, but Trauma Center would have worked as a game with a mouse too. It is gimmicks, nothing of real substance.

If used properly, a stylus can work well. Like as a mouse.
But Phantom Hourglass is an example of a game that makes bad use of the stylus. It could work well if Nintendo limited to things like drawing maps or drawing the path of the boomerang etc. But Nintendo had to screw it up by making the stylus used everywhere else to. Moving, attacking, etc. where it didn't need to.
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Avicalendriya

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Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2014, 03:35:46 pm »
While a mouse and a stylus is certainly a similar device, I would certainly challenge someone to be as accurate in a drawing program with a mouse as opposed to an actual pen-style implement.

I've been drawing all my life, and started experimenting with digital art in 2008. My conclusion is that using a mouse to draw in a traditional manner is often cumbersome and slow, and usually leads to many errors and much time wasted redrawing and correcting. However, when doing certain kinds of pixel art, or when drawing straight lines, a pen & tablet can be bothersome and the mouse is the way to go.

The same sort of thing applies to video games. Traditional controllers and motion controllers should be applied to functionality that they are suited for, rather than the other way around.

I.S.T. brings up a very important aspect of gaming with motion controllers: Not everyone wants to or is capable of using motion controllers, and forcing a Player to use it is terrible design. Games are supposed to be accessible to all. Technology should empower rather than limit.

Remember when Crimson Dragon was initially slated to be a Kinect exclusive title? Not only was that a pointless decision, but in a way it was a statement: "Traditional controllers never really worked with Panzer Dragoon games."

I'm glad they realized their mistake and chose to implement controller functionality.

SargeSmash

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Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2014, 05:14:34 pm »
I've been drawing all my life, and started experimenting with digital art in 2008. My conclusion is that using a mouse to draw in a traditional manner is often cumbersome and slow, and usually leads to many errors and much time wasted redrawing and correcting. However, when doing certain kinds of pixel art, or when drawing straight lines, a pen & tablet can be bothersome and the mouse is the way to go.
Oh, yeah, there's definitely cases where a mouse is very useful.  I think that goes back to my original point, if you're using the right tool for the job, then all is well.  It's when you try to do the job with one style of input that is better suited to another that you run into trouble.  (I've been drawing for all my life, too, although I haven't done much in the last couple of years.  I'm still stuck on pencil-and-paper, and I'm not terrible, but I don't have much variability in what I'm able to draw, unlike my brother.)

Quote
The same sort of thing applies to video games. Traditional controllers and motion controllers should be applied to functionality that they are suited for, rather than the other way around.
Very much agreed with this.  The inputs themselves aren't the problem, it's how they're used.

Quote
I.S.T. brings up a very important aspect of gaming with motion controllers: Not everyone wants to or is capable of using motion controllers, and forcing a Player to use it is terrible design. Games are supposed to be accessible to all. Technology should empower rather than limit.
If I may play devil's advocate here, though...  traditional gaming controllers are a huge barrier to non-gamers.  I've come across lots of people that wouldn't dare pick up a controller because it looks insanely complicated to them.  And ironically, they're kinda right.  We gamers that have grown up in the hobby have had time (at least from my personal experience) to move from the two-primary-button NES controller to the 6-button SNES to the Dual Shock, and all the spinoffs in between.  We've had more time to adjust.  They haven't.  To us, a traditional controller may be empowering, because we can look at a game, and see where things would work just fine with a traditional controller.  Non-gamers, likely, will not see that, and the motion controls might seem more intuitive.

Just a thought.  I'm certainly not a fan of shoehorning in motion or touch or whatever "just because", but there are cases where I think it's central to the vision of the software.  When that's the case, I'm totally okay with forcing motion controls.

Quote
Remember when Crimson Dragon was initially slated to be a Kinect exclusive title? Not only was that a pointless decision, but in a way it was a statement: "Traditional controllers never really worked with Panzer Dragoon games."

I'm glad they realized their mistake and chose to implement controller functionality.
Didn't Crimson Dragon turn out kinda iffy, anyway?  Playing the part of a contrarian for just a moment (wheeeee!), I can actually see where a rail shooter might benefit quite well from motion controls if done correctly.  The Wii certainly did quite well with rail shooters.  I can see the Wii remote being quite ideal for a game like Panzer Dragoon, and it's one of those series where, as good as they are, it just begs for a mouse- or stylus-style input device.
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BRPXQZME

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Re: Nintendo Admits Wii U Is A Flop? Interesting...
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2014, 05:21:43 pm »
If the Wii didn’t have a PD-style rail shooter, I mean, big missed opportunity there. (I wouldn’t know.)
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