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Author Topic: Rockman 4 MI menu freeze?  (Read 9666 times)

Satoshi_Matrix

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Re: Rockman 4 MI menu freeze?
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2014, 04:54:13 pm »
The optional secret boss lacks a weakness on purpose. By design that means every weapon deals 1 damage, and getting hit by the Kunai depletes your ammo reserves too. You're suppose to deplete your reserves of everything - almost all your weapons, almost all your E-Cans. The fight is suppose to test you to the limits. The most effective weapons against him are the Water Jet, Toad and Ring Boomerangs, and the boss battle is designed to make you go through all of them and then have to use other weapons too like Sparkman Bow or even the Hell Wheel.

Upon defeat he drops a Yashichi - which just like in the first game restores all weapon and health energy, and the secret power up which makes the remainder of the game a breeze.

This boss is intended only for the hardest of the hardcore.

Drakon's changes to make him always appear and be weaker are thus missing the point from the design standpoint.

But again I'm not trying to suggest there is anything wrong with his hack, just that it should be noted that it's unofficial.

KingMike

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Re: Rockman 4 MI menu freeze?
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2014, 06:58:29 pm »
It might be for the most hardcore players, but I think making you play through THE ENTIRE GAME on one life just to get ONE CHANCE to fight the boss carries an excessive punishment for failure (repeating the FULL GAME after EVERY MISTAKE is not something I consider fun or fair design).
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Drakon

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Re: Rockman 4 MI menu freeze?
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2014, 07:45:46 pm »
The optional secret boss lacks a weakness on purpose. By design that means every weapon deals 1 damage, and getting hit by the Kunai depletes your ammo reserves too. You're suppose to deplete your reserves of everything - almost all your weapons, almost all your E-Cans. The fight is suppose to test you to the limits. The most effective weapons against him are the Water Jet, Toad and Ring Boomerangs, and the boss battle is designed to make you go through all of them and then have to use other weapons too like Sparkman Bow or even the Hell Wheel.

Upon defeat he drops a Yashichi - which just like in the first game restores all weapon and health energy, and the secret power up which makes the remainder of the game a breeze.

This boss is intended only for the hardest of the hardcore.

Drakon's changes to make him always appear and be weaker are thus missing the point from the design standpoint.

But again I'm not trying to suggest there is anything wrong with his hack, just that it should be noted that it's unofficial.

Well I appreciate you going from saying "there's no reason at all for Drakon's hack" to "I'm not trying to suggest there is anything wrong with his hack".  The second quote is a much nicer way of putting it.  Of course my hack is against the design standpoint, because I think the original design concept is silly and needed changing which is why I made these changes.  Is that not the point of romhacking, or making changes in general?  To me cutting out part of the experience for everyone but "the most hardcore players" is a bad design decision.  Hardcore players should get a better score, not a cool boss that casual players don't even get to play.  Making a boss that's a royal pain to even get a chance to play and then even more of a pain to kill is another bad decision.  You only get one shot at fighting him and he has a one hit kill attack that he performs many times during the fight.

What attracted me to minus infinity in the first place was the balanced difficulty.  This new release includes harder modes which is great for people who like that sort of thing. The authors should make the game give you a higher score for playing on these modes as a reward.  I think history has shown that gamers aren't full of fond memories of "this or that true last boss".  It's been demonstrated that elitist catering doesn't make for popular games.  Minus infinity is a great game that needs more of the greatness that people grew to love in the first release and less of the kaizo mario true last boss mentality.

It might be for the most hardcore players, but I think making you play through THE ENTIRE GAME on one life just to get ONE CHANCE to fight the boss carries an excessive punishment for failure (repeating the FULL GAME after EVERY MISTAKE is not something I consider fun or fair design).

Exactly how I felt.  Then I discovered that fighting him was grossly unfair so I made some of his attacks weaker.  You know how normally in the game when you get hit for a second or so you flash and can't get immediately hit again?  Well I discovered when his health starts to get low his throwing star attacks don't have this temporary hit recovery time so if you're in the direct path of the throwing star it take away close to half your health in one hit.  I haven't figured out how to restore the temporary invincibility at this point.  Instead I just made your weapons a little stronger.

The ultra weapon he drops does make the last bit of the game easier, but it's such a short part of the game anyway.  I don't care so much about getting that "secret upgrade" it's more about having the enjoyment of fighting him in a more balanced fight which is what my changes turned it into.  I didn't remove the item drop I left it in so people can chose to either grab it or simply avoid picking it up by jumping over it.  Not like the game is very fun playing with a constant critical hit upgrade anyway.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2014, 08:25:00 pm by Drakon »

Satoshi_Matrix

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Re: Rockman 4 MI menu freeze?
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2014, 02:47:00 pm »
It might be for the most hardcore players, but I think making you play through THE ENTIRE GAME on one life just to get ONE CHANCE to fight the boss carries an excessive punishment for failure (repeating the FULL GAME after EVERY MISTAKE is not something I consider fun or fair design).

But that's not how it is. The game auto saves at every stage, including the Cossack and Wily stages. If you die, you don't have to restart the entire game if you want to fight the secret boss, you just need to hit reset and then redo that particular stage.

Making a boss that's a royal pain to even get a chance to play and then even more of a pain to kill is another bad decision.  You only get one shot at fighting him and he has a one hit kill attack that he performs many times during the fight.

I completely disagree. This is an optional fight for those who want the extra challenge. You neither have to fight him nor are punished for not doing so. The difficulty of the battle too was done purposely so that there's an actual challenge to the secret boss.

The requirements to face him aren't as strict as you make them out to be. All you have to do is simply not die. You can take 27 units of damage on any stage, just as long as you don't take 28. As mentioned, the game auto saves after every single stage is completed, so if you die, you only need to reset back to the start of the stage, not redo the entire game. Also, new to the prealpha, is the difficulty selection! If you find the vanilla MI too difficult, simply adjust the difficulty to your liking. 

The boss fight is challenging, but if you play your cards right, the battle is doable. You have to go in fully stocked. Don't waste any of your weapon energy or E-cans on the first two Chamarabots. If you go into the fight fully stocked, you stand a fighting chance. Avoid using the Megabuster, and instead rely on Water Jet, Toad, Drill Torpedo, Holdable Control Ring Boomerang, anything and everything. The boss is suppose to truly challenge you to the limit. Use E-Cans when your health gets low.

Drakon, I've watched your playthroughs and you're at least as good of a player as I am, if not better. If I can the final boss fight, surely you can as well. 

At the end, even if you loose, its not that big a deal. Just hit reset and try the stage again. Your hack to lower the difficulty misses the point of the whole thing.

guitarzombie

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Re: Rockman 4 MI menu freeze?
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2014, 10:40:56 am »
I just gonna weigh in and say, who really cares what Drakon does for his own game?  Unless he's selling it under false pretenses that's different but as far as I know he's doing it for his own enjoyment. 

Satoshi_Matrix

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Re: Rockman 4 MI menu freeze?
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2014, 06:56:17 pm »
Which is completely fine! I'm a big fan of a good many of his hacks. I'm just saying that I don't think this particular hack is needed, but he'd say the same about all my translation work, so its a wash anyhow. Regardless, individual gamers should decide which version to play. It's not up to me or him to dictate that to anyone.

Drakon

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Re: Rockman 4 MI menu freeze?
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2014, 08:33:52 pm »
I'm pretty certain that as soon as you fight him it auto saves that you attempted him and "hitting reset" he won't appear again meaning you'll have to start all over.  I may be "good enough" to get him but that doesn't mean I should enjoy how he set it up.

I'm fine with agreeing to disagree on this as we tend to do with stuff.

M-Tee

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Re: Rockman 4 MI menu freeze?
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2014, 08:46:22 pm »
As long as we're discussing this, I'll ring in to say that if I were to play this hack, I would play the one with Drakon's alteration. There's a difference design wise between rewarding skill and requiring insane dedication by blocking a whole portion of the game.  That said, I think we should also remember that hacks have a drastically smaller player base than games. The best hacks will be downloaded by less than a few thousand people in the world. They will be played for more than five minutes by a drastically smaller percentage. Implementing something like this inevitably results in coding and design time wasted on something that will be experienced, optimistically by maybe a dozen people.

A reward screen, a non-essential power-up to play back through with, a secret message, these all seem like valid rewards game design wise for beating a game undefeated and the final, hardest boss in one attempt. Actually getting to play the game through the end does not.

Satoshi_Matrix

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Re: Rockman 4 MI menu freeze?
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2014, 02:33:03 pm »
I'm pretty certain that as soon as you fight him it auto saves that you attempted him and "hitting reset" he won't appear again meaning you'll have to start all over.

No! That's not true! The game only auto saves at the end of each level. The secret boss fight does not trigger any auto saving. If you lose, hit the reset button. The game will load back to the start of Wily #4. You'll have to fight the Cutman/Elecman hybrid and the Woodman/Quickman hybrid again, but you won't have to repeat the whole game, and you also won't be stuck without getting another chance.

Drakon

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Re: Rockman 4 MI menu freeze?
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2014, 09:18:28 pm »
No! That's not true! The game only auto saves at the end of each level. The secret boss fight does not trigger any auto saving. If you lose, hit the reset button. The game will load back to the start of Wily #4. You'll have to fight the Cutman/Elecman hybrid and the Woodman/Quickman hybrid again, but you won't have to repeat the whole game, and you also won't be stuck without getting another chance.

Well the way the programming of the game works is as soon as the third chimera boss has finished lowering the ram updates to a value that says "he's been attempted" and it won't let you play him once that ram value updates so you definitely need to reset the game at the very least.  Having to get up, hit reset and replay the first two chimera bosses over and over is really annoying.  No other boss in the game does this, and there's no point in having it which is why I disabled it.

I can understand you preferring the boss to be more difficult as that's a preference.  I don't understand how you don't appreciate me disabling having to reset the system and replay two bosses every time you wish to replay the boss.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 09:49:25 pm by Drakon »