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### Author Topic: Some questions.  (Read 10799 times)

#### Pikachumanson

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##### Some questions.
« on: June 01, 2013, 08:49:36 am »
Has anyone ever ran into a す with a handakuten next to it?
If so, what sound does it make?

What does かけルカず mean in terms of math? It comes right before a multiplactiin problem in some Whack a Mole type game in Keisan Game: Sansuu 2 Toshii.

Also, what does かけられるかず mean? I believe it means multiplication but instead of a dakuten sign it has a handakuten sign next to the す.

#### Zynk

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##### Re: Some questions.
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2013, 10:11:59 am »
す = su; ず = zu

かず
means number.

かける = to multiply

Multiplication its basically: [multiplicand × multiplier = product]

It might be either:
かけるかず = multiplicand
かけられるかず = multiplier
But I'm not sure which is which

#### KingMike

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##### Re: Some questions.
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2013, 02:06:52 am »
Has anyone ever ran into a す with a handakuten next to it?
If so, what sound does it make?

Yes, as Zynk said, it's "zu". handakuten is supposed to be placed to the right of the main character, but most 8-bit games placed them above because they usually used 8x8 tiles and it was probably less ugly/wasteful of screen space if they were given a full tile to the right.
(yeah, some games did use 8x8 with dakuten in the same tile, but I'd think those to be harder to read)
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##### Re: Some questions.
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2013, 02:45:01 am »
What he means, is that there is a handakuten on the "su" character. Usually a dakuten turns it into "zu", and handakuten are used excusively for pa pi pu pe po. A handakuten is normally illegal with anything else.

#### Pikachumanson

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##### Re: Some questions.
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2013, 02:52:56 am »
What i am guessing is that they made the dakuten smaller because a regular sized dakuten runs into the game board therefore canceling the white line out.

#### Zynk

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##### Re: Some questions.
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2013, 03:13:12 am »
What he means, is that there is a handakuten on the "su" character. Usually a dakuten turns it into "zu", and handakuten are used excusively for pa pi pu pe po. A handakuten is normally illegal with anything else.
Now that I looked at it closely, it does look like a handakuten next to the す of かけられるかず.

#### LostTemplar

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##### Re: Some questions.
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2013, 04:22:46 am »
But it isn't, it's just a ず squished into an 8x8 tile (as opposed to かけるかず, where it gets its own 8x8 tile).

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##### Re: Some questions.
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2013, 04:55:39 pm »
I count 11 pixels wide for the whole Su character + handakuten.

#### LostTemplar

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##### Re: Some questions.
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2013, 08:39:04 am »
It seems I got tricked. Still, there's no such thing as a す゜. It's definitely a ず (zu).

#### BRPXQZME

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##### Re: Some questions.
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2013, 09:12:21 am »
The tile includes the left border; maybe they just didn’t want the text straying too close to it.

Also you can sometimes find handakuten on arbitrary text to indicate some kind of unusual speech, but this is extremely rare.
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##### Re: Some questions.
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2013, 08:09:19 am »
Is this more rare than the deprecated wi and we characters ?

#### BRPXQZME

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##### Re: Some questions.
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2013, 09:08:48 am »
Yes, because the deprecated kana were in regular use at one point.
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#### Zynk

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##### Re: Some questions.
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2013, 09:16:26 am »
I once saw 'wa' with a dakuten pronounced as 'va', but now I think its uncommon now.

#### BRPXQZME

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##### Re: Some questions.
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2013, 04:54:13 pm »
In fact, the same guy invented both ヴ and ヷ, but only one of these really “caught on”, and even so it seems to me rather recent that the usage of ヴァ, ヴィ, etc. are overtaking バ, ビ, etc. in borrowing words with Vs.
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#### Zynk

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##### Re: Some questions.
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2013, 08:36:04 pm »
Wow. I wish he also invented 'ra, ri, ru, re, ro' with a dakuten so we could have a 'la, li, lu, le, lo'. It would really, REALLY help distinguish the Japanese's r's from l's.

To illustrate:

ら /  ラ = ra
り / リ = ri
る / ル = ru
れ / レ = re
ろ / ロ = ro

ら゛ / ラ゛ = la
り゛ / リ゛ = li
る゛ / ル゛ = lu
れ゛ / レ゛ = lu
ろ゛ / ロ゛ = lo

#### BRPXQZME

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##### Re: Some questions.
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2013, 08:45:46 pm »
Well, he was something like a Japanese Benjamin Franklin, and as all engineers ought to know, old Ben got the polarity wrong, a mistake that is far too late to fix

Albeit inconsequential, since it’s not like anyone can actually see which way the electrons are going much less someone in the 18th century, and besides that, minus signs are easier to draw.
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##### Re: Some questions.
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2013, 02:48:57 am »
Quote
Wow. I wish he also invented 'ra, ri, ru, re, ro' with a dakuten so we could have a 'la, li, lu, le, lo'. It would really, REALLY help distinguish the Japanese's r's from l's.
I agree. In fact the japanese "ra ri ru re ro" sounds neither like a R or a L, and I am personally completely unable to reproduce this sound with my mouth. I don't understand how they manage to mix up R and L which are completely different sounds for me, I'd understand they'd mix up P and B for instance, but they don't...

In the end an "ideal" system would be something like this :

ら /  ラ = japaneese ra
り / リ = japaneese ri
る / ル = japaneese ru
れ / レ = japaneese re
ろ / ロ = japaneese ro

ら゛ / ラ゛ = la
り゛ / リ゛ = li
る゛ / ル゛ = lu
れ゛ / レ゛ = lu
ろ゛ / ロ゛ = lo

ら° /  ラ° = ra (with a real R)
り° / リ° = ri (with a real R)
る° / ル° = ru (with a real R)
れ° / レ° = re (with a real R)
ろ° / ロ° = ro (with a real R)

#### BRPXQZME

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##### Re: Some questions.
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2013, 02:24:21 pm »
To produce a Japanese R takes a bit of practice. But as starting tips, you should not be trying to say R, you should be trying to say D. But not a D with the top of your tongue, and certainly not with the tongue against the teeth like in some languages; it should be a fast D with the tip of the tongue. The R sound only comes about from the vowel-like features of this; don’t try to do anything with the back of your mouth. This will also sound like an L if you let air escape around the tongue, hence why it sounds similar to people who speak a language with nothing else that comes close—in Korean, which has basically the same R sound, there is a fairly regular L sound, but it is mentally treated as a longer R sound.

There is no such thing as a “real R”; it is completely dependent on the language, and there are about five or six different ones in common use among languages that use the Latin alphabet. One of them, used in Iberian and Italian languages, is about the same as in Japanese, but there is no confusion with L because the L sound remains an important distinction in those languages.
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##### Re: Some questions.
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2013, 02:47:26 pm »
Mmh... interesting.

Anyways to me L and R are two radically different sounds, and I'm still unable to pronounce the japanese LR sound. Perhaps pronouncing a simple L, but exaggerating it a bit so it sounds a bit stronger, is probably the closest I can do, because a R sounds extremely far from it to me.

I should pay attention next time I hear Italian language to see if I can recognize the same LR sound... but I really don't recall hearing it, despite having the occasion to hear it fairly often.

I understand the notion of "real R" makes few sense, because it is always "real" in the sense of your native language.

#### Pikachumanson

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##### Re: Some questions.
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2013, 09:07:06 pm »

Can anyone tell me what the lady is saying? It is for the game Kawa no Nushi Tsuri. THis in a Tackle and bait shop.