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Author Topic: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Multilingual enhancement  (Read 427985 times)

BRPXQZME

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #580 on: May 16, 2013, 01:51:48 am »
“For ever” as two words is not incorrect here, particularly if you want to evoke a more archaic use of English. For example, this is from Dracula (1897):

“This then was the Undead home of the King Vampire, to whom so many more were due. Its emptiness spoke eloquent to make certain what I knew. Before I began to restore these women to their dead selves through my awful work, I laid in Dracula's tomb some of the Wafer, and so banished him from it, Undead, for ever.”
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Bisqwit

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #581 on: May 16, 2013, 02:49:23 am »
Will fix "begun".
Will not change "will be finally ended" to "will finally be ended", or there will be another guy demanding reverting the change because of split infinitives.
Will not change "for ever", for stylistic reasons.

Is it just me or did you expand the intro's boarder to the full height of the screen?

Just you :-)
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 04:11:13 am by Bisqwit »

Vanya

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #582 on: May 16, 2013, 05:59:49 am »
“For ever” as two words is not incorrect here, particularly if you want to evoke a more archaic use of English. For example, this is from Dracula (1897):

“This then was the Undead home of the King Vampire, to whom so many more were due. Its emptiness spoke eloquent to make certain what I knew. Before I began to restore these women to their dead selves through my awful work, I laid in Dracula's tomb some of the Wafer, and so banished him from it, Undead, for ever.”

Actually, I wouldn't call it archaic. If anything my research shows that it's just a more common way to use it in non-American English. Where as "forever" is more common in the US. I don't see the point in using this styling given that the rest of the retranslation text doesn't use it as far as I've seen.


Will fix "begun".
Will not change "will be finally ended" to "will finally be ended", or there will be another guy demanding reverting the change because of split infinitives.
Will not change "for ever", for stylistic reasons.

Just you :-)

Ok. I'll just put them on my list of changes for my personal version.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 06:08:03 am by Vanya »

BRPXQZME

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #583 on: May 16, 2013, 08:35:09 am »
Actually, I wouldn't call it archaic. If anything my research shows that it's just a more common way to use it in non-American English. Where as "forever" is more common in the US. I don't see the point in using this styling given that the rest of the retranslation text doesn't use it as far as I've seen.
It has been slowly but reliably going out of style in the UK, the most major holdout for the two word version (for example, out of the so-called “quality press”, only the Times seems to have a preference for keeping it two words). In the US, it is definitely archaic, to the point where many people even think it is a mistake (a clear sign of widespread membership in the Illiterati). This practically puts it in the same boat as “is n’t” and “to-morrow”, which are only mistakes if you try them now.

As for the style, I’ll direct your attention here, in which skimming the thread over the past few days is the only point I recall the intended style being mentioned.

(also there was that split infinitive thing but that was just, uh... granz has funny ideas about grammar, I’ll put it that way)
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Bisqwit

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #584 on: May 16, 2013, 10:02:43 am »
Hey, wait a minute. Why not just make the new title screen part of the new intro patch? I mean if people are such purists as to not want a new title screen they probably won't want the intro either. That way you wouldn't need any new files, right?
That is certainly a possibility. I was expressing facts about making those three screens mutually consistent.

For now, what I will do is remove the version information from all versions of the title screen and figure out a way to show it when some particular button is pressed. I am not going to redesign the title screen entirely, unless someone shows a design I really like and/or I come up with the inspiration and design myself and people like it.

I would also like to put a smaller version of the game's title on the first screen of the prologue, but I have not yet come up with a design that is not just a clone of the main title screen. To that end, the Konami logo has already been in the tile set used on the first screen of the prologue for the past few versions...
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 10:12:15 am by Bisqwit »

Vanya

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #585 on: May 16, 2013, 03:18:00 pm »
Quote
For now, what I will do is remove the version information from all versions of the title screen and figure out a way to show it when some particular button is pressed.

How about just doing a simple palette swap? Start all black & hold the button to switch to the appropriate colors. That way you don't have to mess with what you already have.


Quote
I am not going to redesign the title screen entirely, unless someone shows a design I really like and/or I come up with the inspiration and design myself and people like it.

That's why I kept it simple. My main purpose was to use the same border as the intro to make it flow nicely.


Quote
I would also like to put a smaller version of the game's title on the first screen of the prologue, but I have not yet come up with a design that is not just a clone of the main title screen. To that end, the Konami logo has already been in the tile set used on the first screen of the prologue for the past few versions...

With all due respect, what for? You already see the title screen at full size when the game starts. Seems kinda redundant to have a smaller version of the same thing.
Actually, one of the ideas I originally had, and the reason I went for a black background, was so you could start off the intro with the full title graphic and fade it out as a nice transition. The idea is to make it look like the title is the first cell in the film and that it just starts rolling to show the intro.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 03:26:48 pm by Vanya »

Sinis

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #586 on: May 19, 2013, 10:05:03 am »
I would also like to put a smaller version of the game's title on the first screen of the prologue, but I have not yet come up with a design that is not just a clone of the main title screen. To that end, the Konami logo has already been in the tile set used on the first screen of the prologue for the past few versions...

Eh, I wouldn't.  Might be best to put more art there or at least something different than seeing the title again for as they say "Once can be enough!"  ;)

Could always put your game version there as if a type of 'surprise' to the player on seeing which version they are playing  :P

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #587 on: May 20, 2013, 10:00:50 pm »
How about just doing a simple palette swap? Start all black & hold the button to switch to the appropriate colors. That way you don't have to mess with what you already have.

Where am I going to credit the testers and people who gave me feedback and ideas then? :-)
Sure, I could probably rewrite the after-ending screen now that I have more experience about doing that sort of thing... But I may not want to spend effort in redesigning it.


Quote
I would also like to put a smaller version of the game's title on the first screen of the prologue, but I have not yet come up with a design that is not just a clone of the main title screen. To that end, the Konami logo has already been in the tile set used on the first screen of the prologue for the past few versions...
With all due respect, what for? You already see the title screen at full size when the game starts. Seems kinda redundant to have a smaller version of the same thing.
Actually, one of the ideas I originally had, and the reason I went for a black background, was so you could start off the intro with the full title graphic and fade it out as a nice transition. The idea is to make it look like the title is the first cell in the film and that it just starts rolling to show the intro.

Maybe I then misunderstood what you wrote in a previous post:
*Suggested Text Edit & Sequence Change
BLANK SCREEN
FOOTAGE--FADE IN FANCY CV2 TITLE LOGO
[Begin music. Text is centered.]
            -Prologue-
[Wait for a little bit & Fade out title logo]

I happened to like this idea...  Also, I think the main title screen logo is a disproportionately big honking one compared to the smaller window on the prologue...

You can see the game already has several different title banner designs (the Japanese one included for reference):


It is not like the prologue screen could not thus use another one -- or one of those.

What I was thinking was along the lines of redesigning the main title screen in the style of the Japanese one (possibly keeping the USA style background palette though; blood effect debatable).
Possibly taking the "Castlevania" logo from USA Castlevania (seen below), adding II in it, and shrinking the outcome to the same proportion of the ドラキュラⅡ text in the Japanese version, possibly removing the plaque background, and adding either "Simon's Quest" or "Seal of the Curse", or both, as a subtitle in a TBD style (noting this part would be translated to other languages as well*), and adding the bats.
The USA style logo might then be used in the prologue, perhaps slightly scaled down.



Oh, and one thing specially worth mentioning: I would not touch the Konami logo. Even though game companies may turn a blind eye for ROM hacks in general, from first-hand experience I know that they are quite touchy about how their trademarks and logos are used. Logos are Serious Business, especially company logos. The right colors and proportions of the company logo are very important. As such I will likely never use the 8x8 Konami logo that was seen in some suggestion screenshot before.
(I am aware this statement falls flat a little, because the four games pictured above had all different colors for the Konami logo.)

EDIT: For completenesses sake, Castlevania III logos are shown below.


Here's an idea for the transition from the Title to the prologue. Can you fade out all the colors except the border like you do in the prologue? That will look a lot cleaner.

It's a bit of a problem to do because of technical reasons. Those two screens use different VROM pages, different palettes and different organization of tiles within... Most importantly, the title screen does not have the necessary tiles for implementing the graphics of the prologue screen (the two 8x8 half-faded film edge tiles, the four 8x8 half-faded film corner tiles and the one 16x8 half-faded edge tile (when used as a sprite); and/or two more 8x8 half-faded edge tiles (when used as background).) Adding those tiles would require, once again, changing the version information blob, because it currently uses all remaining free tiles. I can't even change the year 2012 into 2013, because there's no room for the glyph of "3" in the VROM bank :-)


*) My toolset allows the adding of new languages with a reasonable effort, without need for extra ROM hacking. If someone wants to collaborate with me to provide a translation to another language, this is negotiable. The additional language versions would be provided using the same vending machine as is already used for the Finnish and English versions. You are expected to know some basic linguistic details of your language, such as the alphabet and hyphenation rules. (Use a private message or e-mail.)
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 11:11:03 pm by Bisqwit »

Turambar

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #588 on: May 20, 2013, 10:52:00 pm »
Do you want it to look something like this? (A quick mockup)


Bisqwit

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #589 on: May 20, 2013, 11:10:26 pm »
Quick mockups are quick mockups, but putting the Simon's Quest placque underneath just looks stupid :-)

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #590 on: May 20, 2013, 11:12:19 pm »
Well thanks!

Bisqwit

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #591 on: May 21, 2013, 12:10:04 am »
Well thanks!
Sorry about that.  It just looked to me like you were mocking my idea. (I know that a mock-up means a quick illustration; it was not a language problem.)

Here's my quick illustration. Mind you, I'm no graphics artist, which should be obvious. The palette is not important; I just did the rainbow because I wanted to see what it would look like. It would probably be infeasible on the NES. Similarly, fonts and practically everything can be changed, and the design must be finetuned, assuming something like this was chosen, until it requires no more than an allowable number of distinct 8x8 tiles. The focus is on the large "Castlevania II" title (which might need to be smaller than that), with "Simon's Quest" and/or "Seal of the Curse" as subtitles, and the bats (if allowed by tile budget).

« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 05:32:09 am by Bisqwit »

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #592 on: May 21, 2013, 08:16:07 am »
Where am I going to credit the testers and people who gave me feedback and ideas then? :-)
Sure, I could probably rewrite the after-ending screen now that I have more experience about doing that sort of thing... But I may not want to spend effort in redesigning it.
for the English translation, at least, the list should be shifted one tile to the right (notice that you have a 0 tile margin on the left, but 2 tiles to the right of the longest item, "INVINCIBILITY")

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #593 on: May 21, 2013, 09:08:51 am »
for the English translation, at least, the list should be shifted one tile to the right (notice that you have a 0 tile margin on the left, but 2 tiles to the right of the longest item, "INVINCIBILITY")

Thanks, but I know. For the Finnish translation this is not an option, because the screen contains much longer words. Even though the different languages have the text in different files, the X coordinates are in the PHP code that is shared by both.
It's a minor problem I may "fix" some day.

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #594 on: May 21, 2013, 11:02:12 am »
How do you edit the palettes on the title screen? More particularly, what is the format?

(and why is this the one thing I can't figure out...)

Bisqwit

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #595 on: May 21, 2013, 11:51:52 am »
How do you edit the palettes on the title screen? More particularly, what is the format?

The palettes are stored in the game as data packets that are written into the queue that is processed by the NMI.
The data packets are all listed in the table that begins at $C895 (ROM file offset 1C8A5). Each item in the table is a pointer to the data.
The data format depends on the invocation: Some of the items include a 2-byte PPU memory offset in the beginning, some don't.
$FE = Terminates the string and the PPU write packet.
$FF = Terminates the string, but does not terminate the PPU write packet.
$FD = Terminates the string and the PPU write packet, but also begins a new PPU write packet. (The new packet data is not included.)
String $06 (pointer at $C8A1, data at $CAB7; ROM file offsets 1C8B1 and 1CAC7 respectively) is the title screen palette. That one does include the PPU memory offset (3F00) in the beginning. Thus, ignore the first two bytes. The actual palette data begins from the byte that is $0F (black, i.e. background color).
Almost all of the packets in this table are palettes, but some of them are used for some other purposes, such as for placing the "Entry completed" text on the password screen (string $5A) or for rendering the game over screen (string $07).

The format of the actual palette data is the same as in the PPU memory at 3F00-3F1F.


Quote
(and why is this the one thing I can't figure out...)

Impressive. Could you share your notes about the music engine of the game? :-)
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 12:05:18 pm by Bisqwit »

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #596 on: May 21, 2013, 01:03:29 pm »
Thanks, but I know. For the Finnish translation this is not an option, because the screen contains much longer words. Even though the different languages have the text in different files, the X coordinates are in the PHP code that is shared by both.
It's a minor problem I may "fix" some day.

Could a cheap quick fix for this be to simply add a space to the beginning of all the english strings on that screen? As a programmer I feel somewhat ashamed even suggesting that, but sometimes the old tricks are the best tricks :)

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #597 on: May 21, 2013, 01:11:05 pm »
Could a cheap quick fix for this be to simply add a space to the beginning of all the english strings on that screen? As a programmer I feel somewhat ashamed even suggesting that, but sometimes the old tricks are the best tricks :)

No, because the two spaces in between are in a fixed place and not part of the configuration file. The credit items themselves are expressed in an associative array: name => role. You could add two spaces in the front of each role, but that wouldn't be nice.

Vanya

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #598 on: May 21, 2013, 02:05:34 pm »
Where am I going to credit the testers and people who gave me feedback and ideas then? :-)
Sure, I could probably rewrite the after-ending screen now that I have more experience about doing that sort of thing... But I may not want to spend effort in redesigning it.

In a read-me like everybody else does. But if you CAN extend that after-credits screen then by all means that would be a great place for it all. ;)


Maybe I then misunderstood what you wrote in a previous post:
I happened to like this idea...  Also, I think the main title screen logo is a disproportionately big honking one compared to the smaller window on the prologue...

Derp!! Memory lapse!!


You can see the game already has several different title banner designs (the Japanese one included for reference):


It is not like the prologue screen could not thus use another one -- or one of those.

I like that smaller version of the "~<Simon's Quest>~" logo.



What I was thinking was along the lines of redesigning the main title screen in the style of the Japanese one (possibly keeping the USA style background palette though; blood effect debatable).
Possibly taking the "Castlevania" logo from USA Castlevania (seen below), adding II in it, and shrinking the outcome to the same proportion of the ドラキュラⅡ text in the Japanese version, possibly removing the plaque background, and adding either "Simon's Quest" or "Seal of the Curse", or both, as a subtitle in a TBD style (noting this part would be translated to other languages as well*), and adding the bats.
The USA style logo might then be used in the prologue, perhaps slightly scaled down.

Kinda like I did here for the Japanese CV3 retranslation but with the back part?

EDIT- This is what I actually accomplished in game the last time I worked on it:




Oh, and one thing specially worth mentioning: I would not touch the Konami logo. Even though game companies may turn a blind eye for ROM hacks in general, from first-hand experience I know that they are quite touchy about how their trademarks and logos are used. Logos are Serious Business, especially company logos. The right colors and proportions of the company logo are very important. As such I will likely never use the 8x8 Konami logo that was seen in some suggestion screenshot before.
(I am aware this statement falls flat a little, because the four games pictured above had all different colors for the Konami logo.)

I have to say you do seem to be putting too much stock in the preservation of the logo. Especially considering that we're talking about a ROM hack that is in some ways and points of view intrinsically illegal. Believe me if you caught Konami's attention with this it wouldn't be for modifying the logo graphics. The part you should worry about is preserving their copyright info. Removing or modifying that information is what would get you in trouble. Not the logo.


Here's my quick illustration. Mind you, I'm no graphics artist, which should be obvious. The palette is not important; I just did the rainbow because I wanted to see what it would look like. It would probably be infeasible on the NES. Similarly, fonts and practically everything can be changed, and the design must be finetuned, assuming something like this was chosen, until it requires no more than an allowable number of distinct 8x8 tiles. The focus is on the large "Castlevania II" title (which might need to be smaller than that), with "Simon's Quest" and/or "Seal of the Curse" as subtitles, and the bats (if allowed by tile budget).



I think you need to decide whether to keep the English subtitle or the original Japanese one. Having them both just doesn't look or sound right. And since this is supposed to be a retranslation hack I'd go for the original subtitle, screw the original localization.

PS- Don't like the positioning of the bats. I understand why they did it in the original, but honestly, it made the original look awkward and it shouldn't be reproduced.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 02:56:31 pm by Vanya »

Bregalad

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #599 on: May 21, 2013, 02:39:11 pm »
Those title screens really does look amazing ! I hope they will be feasible on NES.