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Author Topic: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Multilingual enhancement  (Read 418124 times)

Vanya

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #680 on: August 06, 2013, 06:10:48 pm »
Which is exactly the problem; it’s not how you do a serious interpretation of anything. Since you seem willing to give “duck responsibility” a shot, I feel I must inform you that exactly zero Japanese players have ever read it that way. That ambiguity comes from English and would just never occur to a Japanese reader reading Japanese.

Literally any slang term listed in one of the dictionaries I linked to would be a candidate by that logic, and that includes the “warboat”, as well as (excuse my language) “dumpy broad” and “red light district in Tsukudajima” definitions. Fact is, none of them really match the proper diction for a person in this game to be speaking; they’re either too early, too recent, or too specialized to a particular walk of life not reasonable to expect from the game’s NPCs. The only ones that even come close to describing who’s really there are a rare Meiji/Taishō era reference to a drifter, and another rarely attested term thieves used sometime prior to 1992 to call diss on each other.

The existence of ducks as a sort of in-joke in other entries (including a short message from character designer Yada Bon in a little-known readme on the X68k port of the first game about fearing ducks more than he fears Dracula) is sufficient evidence to establish that a literal duck is a reasonable interpretation. And this game is from the 1980s “the player is the designer’s enemy” school of game design. If they didn’t mean for you to go on a bit of a fool’s errand, they wouldn’t have said what they said.

Well, I was just throwing around ideas. After all, I'm no jedi translator. My main point is that if it isn't slang it doesn't make sense as there is no context for a duck being in this otherwise helpful clue. I've never heard of this duck in-joke either. And if it were I'd expect it to be in a more out of the way spot than in a clue about a major item.
Maybe that rare drifter or thief reference might be right on the money and the writer was just trying to use an obscure term on a whim. It's hard to say because there is nothing but this one string of text to go on. There's nothing about the character sprite that helps contextually other than that the npc is hidden.

Bisqwit

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #681 on: August 06, 2013, 06:42:30 pm »
That’s fine; I just don’t want anyone to get the impression that that’s a reasonable interpretation of the Japanese line. People are already beginning to cite you as if it’s authoritative.
Fair enough. I added a few words about the subject in the translation document.

http://bisqwit.iki.fi/cv2fin/diff#t102

Bregalad

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #682 on: August 07, 2013, 03:57:19 am »
Quote
There just doesn't seem to be any English word that would be read in that manner, nor in Swedish, German nor Spanish. I don't know about other languages though.
Technically considering there exists thousands of languages in the world, and that technique to transcribe loan words in katakana is very open to interpretation, there exists almost infinite possibilities.
However, if nobody uses a word, there is no reason to ever use it, as nobody will understand.

I don't know how it works in japanese, but it could be some kind of nickname for the guy who gives you the silk bag. For example, let's assume this guy is in english nicknamed "The graveyard duck", and that he's commonly referred that way by townspeople. It's not uncommon to get nicknames that starts with "the" I think (I'm not too sure about other countries but here it's very common in villages that everyone has such a nickname, and popular people are more often referred by their nickname than their actual name).

In this context, the sentence "Get a silk bag from the graveyard duck to live longer" makes perfect sense. The only reason it doesn't make sense is that the player don't know that "the graveyard duck" is actually a guy's nickname.

I don't know if such a thing is possible in japanese.

Bisqwit

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #683 on: August 07, 2013, 05:42:22 pm »
In this context, the sentence "Get a silk bag from the graveyard duck to live longer" makes perfect sense. The only reason it doesn't make sense is that the player don't know that "the graveyard duck" is actually a guy's nickname.

I don't know if such a thing is possible in japanese.

Well, in this case the words "graveyard" and "duck" were not adjacent words in the Japanese original, and do not form a compound.

A literal word-order preserving translation was posted by Vanya earlier. Paraphrasing with small edits (note that in Japanese "prepositions" are actually postpositions, i.e. "from x" is written "x-from" in this paraphrasing):

> sutorigoi bochi de   ahiru kara   kinu no fukuro o   morau to   naga iki suru
>
> Strigoi-graveyard-at   domestic-duck-from   silk-of   bag-object   receive-when   long living do

Literal translation, without preserving word-order (added words in parenthesis):
> At (the) strigoi graveyard, when (one) receives (a) bag (made) of silk from (a) domestic duck, (one) lives long.

Ahiru, "duck", could certainly be a nickname in this context. Whether that was the purpose originally, I don't know. As I wrote earlier, even risking translation inaccuracy I'm not going to translate it literally as a "duck", because that would be perceived as a detrimental quality to the re-translation. Another nickname might work, but in my opinion the "patrolling man" meaning is currently the best offered solution, offering both least translation inaccuracy and least attention towards the translation rather than towards the game.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 06:28:37 pm by Bisqwit »

Cleaver

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #684 on: August 08, 2013, 09:13:19 am »
Been lurking a long time...
First off, Bisqwit, I'm glad there are people like you in the world.  The watered down translations for some of the best games/artworks from the 80s-90s were horrid, and it makes them unplayable for me.  And I believe the translators just wanted to avoid any kind of bullshit coming from ESRB, or whatever the equivalent was back then but I know developers would censor anything that could've possibly been seen as a little bit controversial.  As a result, the translation suffers tremendously.  That, and the space limitation. 

Right and I don't know anything about the Nintendo or its Cartridges but since 99% of us are going to be playing these games through an emulator why not just make them as big as you want? 

I love your attention to detail.  Don't settle for anything man.

Ah one more thing, what is up with the first Legend of Zelda?  Sorry don't mean to get off topic but that is the worst translation ever, and being as it is one of the most popular games of all time I'm surprised no one has done anything about that.  I'd do it myself, the translations already written out, well.  It just needs to be put into the game.  Maybe I'll learn how, or it'd be cool if there was some kind of editor but anyway,

Second, Chpexo,
Your last upload was absolutely beautiful.  Did you write that?  Or is it a piece from something else?  If you wrote it, please finish it.  Like I said it is beautiful, especially played over something that doesn't sound like a Nintendo chiptune.

« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 09:20:29 am by Cleaver »

KingMike

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #685 on: August 08, 2013, 09:29:51 am »
The ESRB became operational in late 1994, though the ESRB wasn't the one censoring games. It was other factors like predicted consumer reaction, or stores refusing to sell games with content they didn't like.
It was Nintendo that censored NES games. Nintendo required third-parties to send their games to NoA, and let NoA go through the games and demand anything they didn't like be changed and then resubmitted. Since that took time and could delay a release, some companies would pre-emptively censor their games to please NoA.
It was the home release of Mortal Kombat in 1993 that caused enough of a controversy to make the feds demand a rating system be created, and also the extreme negative reaction to the censored SNES version that made Nintendo begin to change their ways.
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Da_GPer

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #686 on: August 08, 2013, 10:24:29 am »
Been lurking a long time...
First off, Bisqwit, I'm glad there are people like you in the world.  The watered down translations for some of the best games/artworks from the 80s-90s were horrid, and it makes them unplayable for me.  And I believe the translators just wanted to avoid any kind of bullshit coming from ESRB, or whatever the equivalent was back then but I know developers would censor anything that could've possibly been seen as a little bit controversial.  As a result, the translation suffers tremendously.  That, and the space limitation. 

Right and I don't know anything about the Nintendo or its Cartridges but since 99% of us are going to be playing these games through an emulator why not just make them as big as you want? 

I love your attention to detail.  Don't settle for anything man.

Ah one more thing, what is up with the first Legend of Zelda?  Sorry don't mean to get off topic but that is the worst translation ever, and being as it is one of the most popular games of all time I'm surprised no one has done anything about that.  I'd do it myself, the translations already written out, well.  It just needs to be put into the game.  Maybe I'll learn how, or it'd be cool if there was some kind of editor but anyway,

Second, Chpexo,
Your last upload was absolutely beautiful.  Did you write that?  Or is it a piece from something else?  If you wrote it, please finish it.  Like I said it is beautiful, especially played over something that doesn't sound like a Nintendo chiptune.

There are people who do play homebrew ROMs on a real NES using either a PowerPak or other means like making there own cartridges. Also, most people who deal with making NES games or translating them try to make sure to keep it able to fit or work on a real NES, for the same reason I said earlier. As for Zelda, there are editors that can edit the text as well as the game itself.

Bisqwit

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #687 on: August 08, 2013, 10:34:49 am »
Been lurking a long time...
First off, Bisqwit, I'm glad there are people like you in the world.  The watered down translations for some of the best games/artworks from the 80s-90s were horrid, and it makes them unplayable for me.  And I believe the translators just wanted to avoid any kind of bullshit coming from ESRB, or whatever the equivalent was back then but I know developers would censor anything that could've possibly been seen as a little bit controversial.  As a result, the translation suffers tremendously.  That, and the space limitation. 

Right and I don't know anything about the Nintendo or its Cartridges but since 99% of us are going to be playing these games through an emulator why not just make them as big as you want?

Thank you for your feedback Cleaver!

The reason why I am reluctant at growing the ROM size, even if it means doing considerably more work and/or sacrificing some planned features, is two-fold (plus some).
-- Emulator-only ROM patches are considered bad style.
-- There is a nonzero number of people who do play these games on the real console. They do have the equipment to burn homebrew games on real cartridges, and very few worthwhile opportunities to use that equipment. I wish to cater to that audience. I envision being one of them one day, too. The smaller the ROM size is, the larger is the set of cartridges that can host the game.
-- Consider this: 99 % of gamers don't play older-generation games at all, emulator or otherwise. Should I use the same principle, go by the majority, and not make this hack at all? No. Also, I'm not a proponent of democracy :-)
-- The additional puzzle challenge of compressing data down to ROM size limits is fun. This is a hobby, and a hobby must contain fun to be a hobby.

Ah one more thing, what is up with the first Legend of Zelda?  Sorry don't mean to get off topic but that is the worst translation ever, and being as it is one of the most popular games of all time I'm surprised no one has done anything about that.

The point you made about Legend of Zelda is interesting. I should check out the Japanese version. I have never seen it before. I took a quick look at it, and the original text is indeed very, very terse. There's barely any material to make a translation from. Exhibit 1:
> ヒトリデハキケンジャ
> コレヲ サズケヨウ
(Sort of) literal translation with word order:
> Alone (it is) dangerous, man!
> This, (you can) have  (or: will be given as a gift, same expression as in CV2)
Officially translated as:
> IT IS DANGEROUS TO GO
> ALONE! TAKE THIS.

Exhibit 2:
> ナンカコウテクレヤ
I can't even make a literal translation, because it is so abbreviated slangy expression. It is something that might come out from a competition to express this idea in the fewest letters possible. (Here, nine, the same as the length of the word "something".) The best I can make is something like "sumthin' let's-buy you-should-do (+various auxiliary words/particles)"
Officially translated as (rather accurate):
> BUY SOMETHIN' WILL YA!

Exhibit 3:
> コレヲ オバアサンニ
> ミセテゴラン
Literal translation:
> This, to (the) old woman (or: old women)
> show, have a look/try it (polite)
Official translation:
> SHOW THIS TO THE
> OLD WOMAN.

Exhibit 4:
> オカネヲフヤス
> ゲームラスルカイ
Literal translation:
> Money increasing
> games do, okay? (masc.)
Official translation:
> LET'S PLAY MONEY
> MAKING GAME.

Based on these four exhibits, I cannot really say that the problem with LoZ is with the translation. Sure, you could put longer lines in it with more emotion and expression in them, but it would venture a bit on the remake territory rather than on the retranslation one (not that I haven't stepped into that direction with my CV2 retranslation).
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 09:18:09 am by Bisqwit »

KingMike

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #688 on: August 08, 2013, 11:39:22 am »
The only major problem I've heard of with the LoZ translation is that the manual says that Pols Voice hates loud noises, which was a hint to the Famicom microphone (and thus not applicable to the NES) but most people incorrectly thought it referred to the whistle (even though it's a simple theory to disprove :P ).
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Bregalad

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #689 on: August 08, 2013, 04:06:19 pm »
How can you say it's the worst translation ever ? Just the idea to came up with "BUY SOMETHING' WILL YA !" makes this the best translation ever. And both tomato and bisqwit says it's accurate so I'll belive them.

Cleaver

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #690 on: August 12, 2013, 01:08:52 am »
Had a little bit of....something that night and completely forgot about this.
Either it's mostly nostalgia or there was something truly special about the arcade up to the N64.  My favorite game franchises began and everything seemed so much more fresh and ingenuitive.  Resident Evil, Silent Hill, Castlevania, Metroid, Splatterhouse, Zelda, Final Fantasy etc.

About the first Zelda, I was too young actually.  A Link to the Past is where I started.  That night I saw this,
http://www.glitterberri.com/the-legend-of-zelda/retranslation-redux/
and more specifically this, in hindsight should have said Zelda II
http://www.glitterberri.com/adventure-of-link/retranslation/
I was surprised that no one took the opportunity to put these into a hack.  They're much better in the way that first time players won't get completely lost.  They're much more coherent.  "How could you say something like it's the worst?  It introduced..." It's nostalgic for you right?
Anyway I opened my mouth here for whatever reason, maybe because I have a lot of respect for this one in particular.  Down to the last detail, you're a perfectionist.  I like that.
I can't fully appreciate a game if I know it's watered down or censored.  Like watching a good movie on basic cable.  It's either learn Japanese or wait for fantastic translations like these.
I started one myself because I couldn't play the American FFVI. 
My hack removed most of the bugs and was completely uncensored.  Very adult.  It was also well written because I kind of stole bits and pieces from literal translations and the GBA version.  I got very far and my computer crashed, then something very horrible happened in my life and I never finished it.
So someone else took the idea or came up with it themselves.
Sorry to get so offtopic I know you guys hate that.  But I wanted to share these with you in case you didn't know about them, it's almost like giving back.
Just to name a few:
Final Fantasy (Grond)
FFVI (http://slickproductions.org/forum/index.php?topic=1115.0)
Castlevania III (Vice Translations)
Clock Tower (http://agtp.romhack.net/projects.php)
A Link to the Past (ALttP SNES New Translation V1.1)-Sorry don't have his name...
Silent Hill (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=488899)
Resident Evil 1.5 (http://www.youtube.com/user/MrBZork/videos)
I'm not trying to hijack this thread, I'm sorry usually I don't even post.  Not going to happen again, promise. 

Anyway, Bisqwit, you are awesome, please keep them coming!  I respect the fact that you want to reach the purists and understand it's bad form to go big.
And to everyone else: if you know of any amazing hacks, translations, or a revolution in emulation (PCSXR-Widescreen!)please send me a message/email if you have time.  Or if you want to trash me for making a post like this.
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 01:43:59 am by Cleaver »

KillerBob

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #691 on: August 12, 2013, 05:44:29 am »
I've been working on cleaning up the first Zelda for some time, it's basically done. Haven't started a thread for it yet but I guess I will do soon enough as I'd like to get some feedback on various things.

Bregalad

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #692 on: August 12, 2013, 03:01:20 pm »
Quote
It's nostalgic for you right?
Nope, I was born 3 years after the release of Zelda, and have not gotten interest into retro video games until much much later (at the age of 14), so nope this is not nostalgic for me.

And I'm not any Zelda fan, I haven't gone more far than the first 2 dungeons or so of the original Zelda and Zelda III, which are the two games of the series I played the most.

I just find the sentece "Buy somethin will ya!" to be particularly amazing and fun to read. It's only old video games which have such memorable quotes, you don't find them in modern games any longer. Also they both says the original is some funky dialect / non standard japanese, so translating into "Buy somethin will ya!" was correct.

Bisqwit

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #693 on: August 12, 2013, 11:31:59 pm »
It's only old video games which have such memorable quotes, you don't find them in modern games any longer.
How about:
-- "The cake is a lie!" from Portal (or: pretty much anything GLaDOS says)
-- "Spy's Sappin' Mah Sentry" from Team Fortress 2
-- "I used to be an adventurer like you, until I took an arrow to the knee" from Skyrim

Of course one can say these are so new that it's hard to tell how memorable they are exactly -- only time will tell -- but I would argue that your point was still proven wrong. :-)

qao

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #694 on: August 13, 2013, 02:43:38 pm »
How time flies, half a year ago I made a post in the newbie forum asking about the possibility of getting the Family Disk System version of the first Zelda getting translated with a bit of info and highlighting its added benefits over the cart version but it seems that didn't get enough traction. :-[


Now I have to say I'm absolutely blown away with the level of attention to detail and a whole multitude of options offered to the user with Bisqwit's translation.
If this Zelda project could finally get started with experienced translators and get the same amount of loving as CV2 I would be so happy. :crazy:

And thanks to Krikzz I would be playing it on the real thing (famicom) as well!

Tattista! :beer:

Vanya

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #695 on: September 13, 2013, 11:16:10 am »
Bisqwit! Someone on the Castlevania forums mentioned an interesting possibility. It may be that visuals and text from the middle and best endings may have been mistakenly inverted. Given the finality of the events associated with the best ending it really doesn't make sense for Dracula to be shown reaching up out of his grave. I think it's an interesting theory with merit. Also take into consideration that after CV2 Konami purposefully dives into the past instead of the future. They even mention Christopher in the original manuals of CV1/Vampire Killer.
It's also possible that Trevor/Ralph C. Belmont and Christopher were originally meant to be the same character with the disparity between CVA and CVIII being due to simultaneous development by separate studios.

Bisqwit

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #696 on: September 13, 2013, 05:47:36 pm »
Bisqwit! Someone on the Castlevania forums mentioned an interesting possibility. It may be that visuals and text from the middle and best endings may have been mistakenly inverted. Given the finality of the events associated with the best ending it really doesn't make sense for Dracula to be shown reaching up out of his grave.
Even in the Japanese original? That is an interesting theory, yes.

Code: [Select]
        $A3D8  AD 7B 04:    lda Ending_TypeDependingOnDays
        $A3DB  C9 02:       cmp #$02
        $A3DD  D0 07:       bne +               ; $A3E6
        $A3DF  20 FC A3:    jsr Ending_PlayDraculaHandScene
        $A3E2  EE 7A 04:    inc Ending_PrimaryActionIndex
        $A3E5  60:          rts

+       
They may have accidentally put "bne" where they meant "beq". But this is just a theory. There doesn't seem to be any actual proof either way.

Vanya

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #697 on: September 17, 2013, 12:15:06 pm »
would that one change reverse the endings?

Bisqwit

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #698 on: September 18, 2013, 01:26:25 am »
would that one change reverse the endings?
As-is, the hand scene is only given for the best ending. Inverting it would give it for all endings but the best one.

Vanya

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #699 on: September 19, 2013, 05:21:00 pm »
Interesting.

EDIT: Any progress on the intro music?
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 07:46:56 pm by Vanya »