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Author Topic: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Multilingual enhancement  (Read 418344 times)

Da_GPer

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #660 on: July 21, 2013, 04:52:30 pm »
As opposed to:

Quote
His health has been slowly
deteriorating, and he is
beginning to feel that
death looms near.

One morning Simon was
visiting the graves of
his ancestors, on the
Hill of Angels.


OK. I didnt think about that when listening. Point taken.

BRPXQZME

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #661 on: July 21, 2013, 05:21:56 pm »
I seem to recall that in filmmaking, there is a general rule of thumb that you don’t really want (English) text—that you intend people to read without pausing anything—to slip by faster than one word every 2/3 second. That’s only a little bit slower than the average person reads; you probably want to go slower than that. (And if that seems so slow it’s ruining the pace of the film, you probably shouldn’t have that much text.) The reason they need this guideline, of course, is that you can read text much faster if you already know what it says.

So while I don’t have the set up right now to even check the speed of the intro, that should tell you what a reasonable expectation of speed is in a cutscene.

In gameplay, however, you have a responsibility to not annoy fast readers and people who accidentally hit the “talk” option again, too. It’s not an easy battle to win.
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Vanya

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #662 on: July 21, 2013, 07:34:42 pm »
Your mileage may vary.

For me, it's rather too slow... And the intro is already 2 minutes long.
Though, with good music it might not be boring even if the text was stretched a bit.

Anyone else's opinions?

Seems fine to me the way it is.

MathUser2929

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #663 on: July 23, 2013, 03:22:49 pm »
Adding music to the intro would definately make it better. Dunno what music track you should use tho. You could make a 8bit version of the SOTN file select music.

Vanya

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #664 on: July 23, 2013, 07:11:03 pm »
The actual track to be used is already being worked on. Check the last couple of pages for samples.

MathUser2929

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #665 on: July 24, 2013, 07:26:32 am »
Well, I've been away from the internet for 1 1/2 months so I'm way behind on this topic. This is the update Ive been waiting for tho. Might play through cv 2 after the intro patch is released.

Chpexo

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« Reply #666 on: July 25, 2013, 06:22:51 pm »
.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 10:30:18 am by Chpexo »

Vanya

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #667 on: July 25, 2013, 09:26:48 pm »
Not bad! With a little arrangement that could be perfect! At least I think so.

MathUser2929

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #668 on: July 26, 2013, 03:03:06 pm »
That sounds pretty good. Go with that.

arromdee

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #669 on: August 02, 2013, 07:32:52 pm »
Is there a source for the graveyard duck translation?

I found a site http://legendsoflocalization.com/digging-up-castlevania-iis-graveyard-duck/ that claims that
1) Japanese players consider it an example of the villagers lying, and never think that "ahiru" means anything other than a literal bird, and
2) Ducks are a running gag within the series.

Vanya

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #670 on: August 03, 2013, 02:25:53 am »

arromdee

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #671 on: August 03, 2013, 12:11:11 pm »
The problem with that is that sitting here on the Internet, I have no way to reconcile the conflict.  All I see is one person saying one thing and one person saying another.  I have no way to figure out which one of them to believe.  Is there a slang dictionary somewhere which references the term?  Is there a Japanese forum where someone says "oh, yeah, you young guys don't know this but we used to call such people ducks 30 years ago"?  Is there some official Japanese guide which gives a screenshot of the man and says that it's what the phrase refers to?

BRPXQZME

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #672 on: August 03, 2013, 10:16:48 pm »
Tomato (on Legends of Localization) says he can’t find anything to corroborate the hypothesis that the “duck” does anything but quack like one and walk like one. He is translator from Japanese who has done professional work and would know how to look for most of these things.

I’m a translator from Japanese as well, though not quite as expert. Doing the same sort of research (in my case, doing a ton of dictionary, encyclopedia, and Google searches), I can’t find any evidence to support that, either.

While a lack of evidence doesn’t prove anything, I think it’s safe to say that if the term would be understood to mean anything besides a waterfowl, something plausible would have turned up from one of these sources.
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Bisqwit

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #673 on: August 04, 2013, 08:34:38 am »
http://www.languagerealm.com/japanese/japaneseslang.php
Here is one of the sources I found regarding the "ahiru" word. It must be a quite obscure, localized or obsolescent slang word, considering how rarely it is found in dictionaries and slang lists.
But it was by-far the most makes-sense interpretation that I could ever find for that line. (It existed before I used it; it has not been added after I mentioned it.)

In my opinion, there is no reason to assume that they would not have used (or resorted to) obscure slang words, especially considering how difficult it is to fit a message in such a small dialog box (and that they were also starved for room in the game diskette).

But considering the general difficulty in understanding of the clues'&villagers' terse and ambiguous words, which did not use any kanji to disambiguate homophones (which are abundant in Japanese), and that some of the villagers do in fact lie (but not nearly as many as in the USA translation), it makes sense that even some of the native people would assume that this was just another lie.

As for the game makers' statement, in my view they went for the typical for Japanese overly apologetic tangent, and just blanket said that everyone lies in this game. Which is not true.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 09:08:20 am by Bisqwit »

BRPXQZME

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #674 on: August 04, 2013, 10:58:40 am »
It’s all about context; it just doesn’t strike me that this particular slang usage is a fit.

The “police” definition seems to have arisen among lowlifes in the early 20th century, perhaps earlier, apparently mocking the appearance of a uniformed policeman’s gait (what with them having sabers and all). Definitely not a compliment at the time. Nihon Kokugo Daijiten 2nd ed. [2000] (someone dumped its entry here if you don’t want to pay the ¥1575 monthly subscription for the online version) lists, along with a number of other definitions (plus some stabs at connotations, some etymology, regional variations...), gives attestations from 1915 and c. 1960.

I’m not finding much in the way of authentic examples, but in more modern times it seems to have become police jargon; e.g. it was shown in a 2003 TV show, but it had to be explained to viewers and being in a TV show is no sign of authenticity anyway. It refers to a uniformed officer in that usage, too. A few explanations of this on the Internet even claim that it is not a well known definition (few hundred Google hits for “アヒル "制服巡査"”, though, and Ingo Daijiten [2000] lists it a number of times; can’t be that obscure).

Other slangy references to a duck’s walk look to be quite obsolete (though Daijirin seems content to list one of them as a secondary definition for some reason... I have reasons to doubt this remains popular usage). What it boils down to, though, is it has nothing to do with patrolling, but waddling or having a large bottom.
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Vanya

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #675 on: August 05, 2013, 08:32:04 am »
Nevertheless taking it as a literal translation makes no sense even in comparison to the other instances of lies in the game. It's just completely wierd if taken as anything other than some sort of slang. According to Thesaurus.com a synonym for patrolman is bear which could make a good localization as it would be equally obscure. Unless there some sort of "Donkey Kong" sort of situation going on. If that were the case maybe they meant duck as in to duck responsibility. Which might make sense given that the person in the graveyard is hidden.

This is my translation.

sutorigoi bochi  de ahiru kara kinu no fukuro o morau to naga iki suru

strigoi graveyard at domestic duck from bag of silk a receive and long living do

Get a silk bag from the duck at Strigoi Graveyard to live long.

You could pretty much replace "the duck" with anything to make more sense of it.

Going with a police reference: Get a silk bag from the pig at Strigoi Graveyard to live long.
Dropping the slang: Get a silk bag from the patrol at Strigoi Graveyard to live long.
Using an alternate slang: Get a silk bag from the odd duck at Strigoi Graveyard to live long.
Taking it to mean ducking responsibility: Get a silk bag from the dodger at Strigoi Graveyard to live long.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 09:30:55 am by Vanya »

BRPXQZME

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #676 on: August 05, 2013, 02:51:23 pm »
You could pretty much replace "the duck" with anything to make more sense of it.
Which is exactly the problem; it’s not how you do a serious interpretation of anything. Since you seem willing to give “duck responsibility” a shot, I feel I must inform you that exactly zero Japanese players have ever read it that way. That ambiguity comes from English and would just never occur to a Japanese reader reading Japanese.

Literally any slang term listed in one of the dictionaries I linked to would be a candidate by that logic, and that includes the “warboat”, as well as (excuse my language) “dumpy broad” and “red light district in Tsukudajima” definitions. Fact is, none of them really match the proper diction for a person in this game to be speaking; they’re either too early, too recent, or too specialized to a particular walk of life not reasonable to expect from the game’s NPCs. The only ones that even come close to describing who’s really there are a rare Meiji/Taishō era reference to a drifter, and another rarely attested term thieves used sometime prior to 1992 to call diss on each other.

The existence of ducks as a sort of in-joke in other entries (including a short message from character designer Yada Bon in a little-known readme on the X68k port of the first game about fearing ducks more than he fears Dracula) is sufficient evidence to establish that a literal duck is a reasonable interpretation. And this game is from the 1980s “the player is the designer’s enemy” school of game design. If they didn’t mean for you to go on a bit of a fool’s errand, they wouldn’t have said what they said.
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Bregalad

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #677 on: August 06, 2013, 03:18:04 am »
I don't know but what if アヒル was in fact a load word, or a proper noun ? Has this way been explored ?

Bisqwit

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #678 on: August 06, 2013, 07:23:16 am »
I don't know but what if アヒル was in fact a load word, or a proper noun ? Has this way been explored ?

There just doesn't seem to be any English word that would be read in that manner, nor in Swedish, German nor Spanish. I don't know about other languages though.

I agree with BRPXQZME that "to duck responsibility" is a wrong tangent to go with the interpretation. アヒル does not mean crouching or evading. These different meanings of the word "duck" only exist in English, and this is Japanese we are translating from.


As for ducks as an in-joke in Konami games (which I have never heard of before), I do not want to make this a literal translation. The primary reason is that it is by far the most criticized line of the English translation, and one that was understood by about zero players as an in-joke. Leaving it as-is would serve no purpose, and would be perceived as a detrimental factor to the quality of the retranslation, even if it were a literal translation of the original line both in letter and in spirit. Changing it into some better understandable in-joke would work, but the fact is that there is still an in-game clue in this dialog text. It is difficult to change it in such manner that it does not seem forced, while still containing a relevant clue.

The holy flame being in the top of the 6th tree of the Denis forest, I left as a literal translation, despite it seeming like a production team in-joke, because nothing is lost in translation. And if I can figure out its reasoning, so can someone else.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 07:33:00 am by Bisqwit »

BRPXQZME

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #679 on: August 06, 2013, 08:06:00 am »
That’s fine; I just don’t want anyone to get the impression that that’s a reasonable interpretation of the Japanese line. People are already beginning to cite you as if it’s authoritative.
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