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Author Topic: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Multilingual enhancement  (Read 417480 times)

Bisqwit

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #640 on: July 09, 2013, 07:52:34 pm »
Chpexo, you complained about me having no clear idea what I have want.

Allow me to heed your feedback. Here's an explanation of what I have in mind. Click to zoom.

If SVG does not work, click here for PNG version.

I guess the biggest problem with your previous demo was the remix of the Castlevania II song. It felt like a cheap version of the original, and unfortunately my QA trigger fired there. My recommendation is to avoid doing remixes, because the moment you do, you get compared to the original. The part in the beginning was good, though.
I did tell you in the beginning [1] that I cannot promise to take your contribution, and I have no intention of getting whatever I can get. If I can't get a song that feels right -- the fact that nobody else commented about it in any way didn't help -- I will do without. Again, sorry about that.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 12:15:21 am by Bisqwit »

Vanya

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #641 on: July 10, 2013, 03:28:23 am »
Just a thought. But maybe it would be better to not try to create such a complex composition.

Here's the thing. Having the music match everything that is going on during the sequence is a very modern thing. Games from the CV2 era had fairly simple music a cut scenes had a single song, the endings had single pieces. They rarely had complex movements with multiple themes and melodies. Having an overly complex score for the intro might come off as jarring and out of place as using a remix.

It might be better to limit it to a theme for the flashback, and one for the encounter in the woods with a transition between them and a definite closing at the end.
Remember that space was a big issue back then and songs were always kept as relatively short loops. Personally, I think the most important thing will be to keep the intro song as close in style as possible to the rest of the CV2 soundtrack so that it doesn't feel out of place. Plus keeping it simple will make it easier and faster to produce.

Just my two cents as always.

Bisqwit

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #642 on: July 11, 2013, 01:00:53 am »
That is a valid and good opinion.

Chpexo

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« Reply #643 on: July 16, 2013, 02:48:35 pm »
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« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 10:32:00 am by Chpexo »

Da_GPer

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #644 on: July 16, 2013, 05:55:49 pm »
Another attempt. This time with the VRC6 chip.

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That sounded so awesome! I should have listened to it while watching the intro though.

Bisqwit

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #645 on: July 17, 2013, 06:38:48 am »
Another attempt. This time with the VRC6 chip.
It was rather good. However, a few concerns:
-- How will this music fare without VRC6? Are there author's recommendations re: converting it for just 2C02?
-- It sounds so much like a Castlevania III remix. Previously I had to remove Castlevania III art elements from the intro because it felt off-place and use Castlevania II art elements instead. Opinions?

elbobelo

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #646 on: July 17, 2013, 09:13:15 am »
While I thought it fit well when synching it with the intro.  I thought the beginning sounded too much like CV3.  And after listening to the end song from CV1 afterwards I thought 'Wow, why not just use this song instead'.  So maybe I'd like to hear a remixed or reprised CV1 ending song that blends with the CV2 intro song.

Sinis

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #647 on: July 17, 2013, 11:00:36 am »
Another attempt. This time with the VRC6 chip.

Listen Online


That's actually pretty good for an intro!  For my opinion, sounds kinda close to the Japanese version.  Perhaps a little more Simon's Quest related maybe the Japanese sound tweaked a little for the extra VRC6 instruments?  Again it's just my opinion but awesomely done  :thumbsup:

Vanya

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #648 on: July 17, 2013, 01:05:37 pm »
Not bad, doesn't flow as nicely as say the CV3 intro songs, but that's because of it having too many themes like I mentioned in my earlier post.

My 2 cents after watching the intro with music synced:

*The whole "Previously on Castlevania" scenes should use an arrangement of "Voyager" from the CV1 ending and credits. Using "Prelude" CV3 sounds nice (esp. in VRC6), but it is a little out of place as Bisqwit mentioned.
The battle theme you used I think should be expanded upon and saved for use as a real boss battle theme in the future should anyone ever figure out how to make them happen.

*As far as the intro itself, I still think all the recap scenes should use a sepia palette to separate them from the rest of the intro story.

*I really like the main intro theme that plays during the encounter with the mysterious woman (listening to it synched up). There seems to be a stray note at the very end (frame 1d line 14)... in fact I just deleted it and it sounds better without it, I think.

*I like the arrangement of the CV1 "Prologue" at the very end.

Personally, I love VRC6 and I'd love to convert the game's whole soundtrack to it, but I do think the patch will need the song to be converted

Bisqwit

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #649 on: July 17, 2013, 08:02:42 pm »
 :cookie:
*As far as the intro itself, I still think all the recap scenes should use a sepia palette to separate them from the rest of the intro story.
Well, I could change it into a 4-color version, but that would be boring in my opinion.

With only de-emphasis bits I can bring the following eight variations to the color palette (the first one is the normal one). It also changes the film color, and this is unavoidable.




By the "recap scenes" I presume you mean the castle collapsing and the Dracula battles. Because everything after that is happening "now". Anyway, I'm not convinced of this idea. Not the least because there's so few colors on the NES to choose from if one wants to monochromatize the scene. Past is not always monochrome.


Quote
*I like the arrangement of the CV1 "Prologue" at the very end.

I also liked the CV1 Prologue rearrangement, though it kind of lacked the oomph I was hoping for the encouraging part :-)


Quote
but I do think the patch will need the song to be converted

That is not a matter of opinion. If I want the patch to work on other chips besides VRC6 -- and I do -- it must also work and be meaningful on non-VRC6. That doesn't mean that VRC6 can't bring extra content, but it means it has to be done by the same rules as usability in the web. Make it scalable. Make it look and sound good regardless of device limits. Famicom Gimmick! did this very well.

Chpexo

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« Reply #650 on: July 18, 2013, 02:56:30 am »
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« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 10:31:23 am by Chpexo »

Vanya

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #651 on: July 18, 2013, 01:35:04 pm »
:cookie:Well, I could change it into a 4-color version, but that would be boring in my opinion.

With only de-emphasis bits I can bring the following eight variations to the color palette (the first one is the normal one). It also changes the film color, and this is unavoidable.




By the "recap scenes" I presume you mean the castle collapsing and the Dracula battles. Because everything after that is happening "now". Anyway, I'm not convinced of this idea. Not the least because there's so few colors on the NES to choose from if one wants to monochromatize the scene. Past is not always monochrome.

I think the monochrome works very well with the film strip motif.
The Castlevania the Adventure ReBirth did it:

http://youtu.be/D087UxYhHWE?t=40s

Also, it's a recap. It's supposed to be boring! :P

EDIT:

Made these right quick.



The theme for the reacap. No expansion chips for this one.

Famitracker File

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The original Castlevania credits theme

That's kinda what I'm talkin' about right there.
But, oh!! Try syncing the original song with the intro! It's almost perfectly synched as is. And the part of Voyager that pics up the pace happens right during the battle and ends with enough time for a series of closing notes before getting to the "Lady in the Mist" scenes.

I dunno, maybe try another arrangement that mostly just uses the CV2 instruments and see how that turns out?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 03:02:09 pm by Vanya »

Chpexo

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« Reply #652 on: July 19, 2013, 04:51:53 pm »
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« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 10:31:09 am by Chpexo »

Da_GPer

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #653 on: July 20, 2013, 02:05:16 am »
This one uses the CV2 instruments.

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I dont know..... It sorta sounds...... sad.  :(

Neil

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #654 on: July 20, 2013, 07:32:32 am »
I dont know..... It sorta sounds...... sad.  :(

As opposed to:

Quote
   His health has been slowly
   deteriorating, and he is
   beginning to feel that
   death looms near.

   One morning Simon was
   visiting the graves of
   his ancestors, on the
   Hill of Angels.

Vanya

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #655 on: July 20, 2013, 02:17:21 pm »
This one uses the CV2 instruments.

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Is that supposed to be Voyager or is it an original composition?

Bregalad

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #656 on: July 20, 2013, 05:38:58 pm »
The intro looks great, but the text is waaaaay too fast. For a non native english reader like me it should be about 2x slower to be readable without pausing the game.

Bisqwit

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #657 on: July 20, 2013, 08:57:45 pm »
The intro looks great, but the text is waaaaay too fast. For a non native english reader like me it should be about 2x slower to be readable without pausing the game.
Your mileage may vary.

For me, it's rather too slow... And the intro is already 2 minutes long.
Though, with good music it might not be boring even if the text was stretched a bit.

Anyone else's opinions?

safaribans

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #658 on: July 21, 2013, 07:15:31 am »
I haven't posted in ages, but this project is too amazing that even someone lazy feels the motivation.

I'm a big fan of your work Bisqwit, and have enjoyed your youtube live programming and TAS stuff (way over my head, I stick to bash scripting nowadays, and just writing for humans :) )

With that gushing out of the way, here is my opinion / mini-rant:
----------------

I'm not sure there is a clear answer on this.

Personally, the faster the better.

It takes practice to read quickly (I thank IRC and subtitles) whether in your native language or others (I can't comment on languages that do not use the roman alphabet, for me, if it's letters and roman numerals, I can read it just fine, accents or not. Whether I fully understand something depends if I'm fluent in the language, my vocabulary, familiarity with the culture, idiomatic expressions, and of course inter-comprehension due to similarities with the languages I know.)

I think making it slower (or i.e. talking slowly and loudly) won't help, and frankly is annoying. Try it, speak to someone really slowly and see what the reaction is, same for reading out loud.

I am impatient (sometimes, or maybe all the time) If something is too slow, I tap the "A" button, end up missing the intro, and find myself stuck on the title screen, with a manual reset if I wish to 'try again' (or give it a few seconds to see if the intro will play again.) Or, thanks to emulation, I watch it "fast-forward" (with the music sounding like a cassette just got eaten) just to get it over with.

The thing is, when I want to play a game, I play the game.

Is there a reason that one couldn't pause the text somehow? (I mean within an emulator this is all trivial,) what about something like hold select, to pause the scene? There are times where I do like to admire the artwork, for example the trees and mountains in Castlevania II are my all time favorites- I still remember when I got the cartridge as a birthday present. Throw in the sound track, the ambiance, how easy it is to get lost and it's a true gem (yes, I also like Faxanadu, Zelda II, and Super Mario Bros. 2, the most popular  ;) )

Keeping in mind the flexibility of emulation (and with stuff like Retroarch with the amazing Braid style rewind, this all seems moot. Of course if you are targeting people playing it on authentic 30+ year old hardware, that's another matter...)

Whatever you decide, just keep up the amazing work.

Thanks to those who managed to get through my rant..

tl;dr
Fast is good. Learn to read faster, or use "pause"  :thumbsup:

Ninja EDIT:
Well the problem is that the intro is completely missable. Under emulation I can pause the emulator and read the damn text, but if I put the rom on my powerpak, then I'd just miss it. I hate being stressed like this when reading.

This kind of remembers me the intro of Deadly Towers who scrolls so fast it's impossible to read it.

To me this is a win. Know why? You now have a reason to watch the intro over again. And maybe again. From the author's perspective, I'd go with 'fast'.

Besides, as Bisqwit mentioned, your mileage may vary. "Slow" is still going to be "too fast" for some, and "Fast" is going to be "too slow" for others.

Maybe the best solution is offer a few suggestions of some NES era games that had an intro speed that you felt was "just right"?

EDIT2: P.S. Bregalad, loved your work on the ff gba games soundtracks. :)
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 07:31:38 am by safaribans »

Bregalad

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Re: Castlevania II (Simon's Quest) - Finnish & English re-translations
« Reply #659 on: July 21, 2013, 07:21:22 am »
Well the problem is that the intro is completely missable. Under emulation I can pause the emulator and read the damn text, but if I put the rom on my powerpak, then I'd just miss it. I hate being stressed like this when reading.

This kind of remembers me the intro of Deadly Towers who scrolls so fast it's impossible to read it.